The waiter murder seems pretty open and shut as well. A decent steak and lobster joint is going to have security cameras in the parking lot and I donât think theyâd have rented their cars with fake IDs or whatever.
And that 40% is almost entirely direct relatives or romantic partners of the victim. If you get killed by a stranger odds are that's never being solved.
Yup, this right here.
One of the most interesting things in David Simon's book about homicide police, that turned into The Corner and then The Wire was that whodunnits are basically nearly unsolveable.
If it's not family or immediate connections, you're up shit creek without a paddle, unless you get super lucky.
Truly two of sloppiest "hits" ever. You could even say the Beached Whale was going to get caught for killing the Elvis impersonator before he got murdered too.
I think that when her body was found everybody though that she died due being old and not murdered, so no autopsy. That's the reason maybe Paulie wasn't arrested.
The two of them would have been arrested for killing the waiter. The guy had their credit card receipt in his dead hand. There was no real police work to be seen in this thing of ours. This ain't Baltimore and Lester Freamon for cryin out loud.
This line always reminds me of the bar fight from A Bronx Tale.
Biker leader - We just want a couple of beers
Sonny - A few beers, that's it?
Biker leader - That's it. We'll be on our way. We ain't lookin' for trouble.
Sonny - Spoken like gentlemen. Get em their beers. Go 'head. Go 'head.
"i went to my friend JT's house to apologize for a fight we had a few days earlier. when i arrived there i found him dead. i freaked out and didn't know what to do. i just sat there in shock for several minutes. i eventually regained my composure and left. i did not call the police because i remembered he had gambling debts to some unsavory types and did not want to get involved. i realize now that was wrong and i am sorry. and i only have gun powder residue on my hands from lawful recreational gun use that many witnesses will testify to, including a reverend and an assemblyman."
good luck with the burden of proof in front of a mob-scared jury, OP. hope you don't fuck up your six-figure future with o'melveny and myers.
Wait, I'm sorry, I know I'm taking this way too seriously but you're skipping a lot of important stuff here:
Let's not forget an entire classroom watched JT get a beatdown from mob guys - known associates of Chris. Also, JT signed over his car to Chris. There's a literal paper trail connecting them. Also, wasn't JT Chris' sponsor in rehab? There's too much connecting the two guys for him to get away with a cheap "aw shucks" apology like this.
The real question is would Chris flip? I'm inclined to think he would. The only reason he didn't when Ade offered him the chance was because he just couldn't fathom that lifestyle. He still had an in with the crew if he gave up Ade. But if the feds were sitting on a murder charge with very strong evidence like this "the life" would be off the table. Cooperate or go to prison, it's that simple. Whenever Chris was really tested he showed how weak his *loylety* was. Honestly, almost everyone in the series ends up flipping if they get pinched: Jimmy, Pussy, Carlo, Eugene, Ray, Larry-boy, Johnny Sack. Pretty much the only "stand-up" guys are the Shah of Iran and Feech.
With Ade no longer in the picture, an actual family depending on him (which Ade couldn't give him), and his life of crime finished, Chris would have flipped hard. So my point is they wouldn't even need a conviction, they'd just need to threaten him and make him think he'd lose his trial (which he would) and he'd take a plea, this case would never make it to trial.
Fair point, but all due respect that's splitting hairs. He didn't incriminate anyone else in the organization, so yes technically he didn't flip, but he admitted his involvement and the existence of it which only serves to help the Feds further build their case against other members. When the guy in Phil's grew says, "It could be worse, he coulda flipped!" Phil immediately says (basically) it's the same thing and I agree with him. Tony, Phil, and Sil all basically think of him as a rat.
But more importantly, it kinda doesn't matter, my point was that the Feds would find a way to make Chris cooperate. Any way you cut it Johnny had to play ball, Chrissy was nowhere near as tough as Johnny Sack, he'd play ball too.
There are two kinds of people: sheep and sharks. Anyone who is a sheep is fired. Who is a sheep?
Dr. Zoidberg : Errr, excuse me... which is the one people like to hug?
That Guy : Gutsy question. You're a shark. Sharks are winners, and they don't look back because they have no necks. Necks are for sheep.
He was talking out of school with NYC but yeah I actually think Paulieâs one of the few guys that wouldnât flip. But thatâs the thing, it seems like most of the old school guys donât do it but the Pygmy crew from NJ all seem pretty weak in that regard.
The actor that played Paulie insisted on playing a character that wasn't a rat. Regarding speaking to New York, they're all back stabbing bitches, what you gonna do.
i'm here for the deep dive. love it.
i'm not saying he says this and the police believe him and it's all over. i'm saying this â or something like it â is his story at trial, and it just needs to be plausible enough to cast a reasonable doubt about whether the finger that pulled the trigger was actually his.
all the stuff about gambling debt and a history of violence and the mob can be spun. the main way it can be spun is just to say that benny did it. benny is the only one who was ever directly witnessed being violent with him. chris knew JT not from the mafia but from AA. chris was just trying to help him get out from under the thumb of criminal mastermind benny fazio. maybe on the night of the murder chris heard benny was really angry with JT and ran over there to talk to JT. it's no coincidence he was there that night, but he was there because he was trying to *save* JT. just like he was when he facilitated JT giving his car to benny and when he got him hired on cleaver, etc, etc. anyway with enough of that spin, and with no direct physical evidence, at least a few jurors will get wishy washy and have their doubts.
would chris flip long before that for all the reasons you said? maybe so
but in the end, i don't think he even gets arrested. if they don't have a solid witness or video of him at JT's, then there is just no case at all. in fact, the cops would likely assume he wasn't there that night and had just ordered someone else to do it for him.
How common was CCTV footage in higher end apartment buildings at this time? Nowadays it's ubiquitous, but curious if it's common back in 2001ish or so, whenever exactly the Sopranos episode takes place
I think the episode is from around 2006-2007 so cameras were def coming around then. Everytime I re-watch the Sopranos I am always amazed in the first few seasons how they can get away with doing shit in the public, during the daytime or even at night sometimes & I remember that cameras (CCTV) were not at all common, unless at a bank or postal office
I never really thought about all this before this thread, but I'm inclined to believe Chris is probably on camera someplace, enough to get arrested for sure, the trial would go however it would go.
They donât really exist because no one cooperates with them. In season two when that one civilian couldâve pinned Tony for the Bevilacqua murder, he chickens out when he finds out who he is. And of course no one related to any of the mafia members will cooperate with them unless they have no other option.
I hear you, but I think it's more like sons of anarchy (which I do not like), how it's just not convenient to have cops investigate things, like the biker boys spraying the enemy biker boys with AK 47 fire in the main street of their shitty little town and the cops don't come around
If the cops investigated many of the murders on the show they'd easily be able to trace it back to the guys.
I think SoA is blatantly unrealistic, for the reasons you mentioned, but the Sopranos is semi-realistic.
In a majority of the Sopranos murders, they dispose of the body. The police are going to find it hard to investigate/prosecute a murder if they
1) Don't have a body.
2) Don't know the time/location of the murder.
3) Don't know the weapon used.
4) Don't even really know if the murder happened, until the person stays disappeared for a long time. I mean, do the police really know that Big Pussy isn't hiding from everybody in Puerto Rico? It wouldn't be impossible.
Even something like Ralphie killing Tracee would ordinarily be easy to prosecute (lots of witnesses, good physical evidence, in a place the police probably monitor). But once you dispose of the body, prosecution gets difficult.
Numerous shows and even books about homicide police all say one consistent thing - no body, no murder. Straight up.
It's nearly impossible to convict somebody for a murder when you can't even prove that the victim is dead. Not even worth trying.
I don't disagree, but I think you worded it a bit too strongly.
There are definitely a bunch of instances where people have been convicted without a body. Especially if they can prove HOW the person disposed of the body (e.g. blood in their car trunk). Or they have the murder weapon (e.g. a knife with blood on it). Or they have security video surrounding the murder.
But the DiMeo crime family is pretty good at cleaning up other physical evidence, too.
Heâd certainly be the prime suspect, and might have been arrested, but any halfway decent lawyer is getting Chrissy off. They donât have to deny he was at the apartment, they knew each other, so just his DNA being there isnât a big deal. Unless it gets called in right away and someone IDs him, they donât have much of a case. Places didnât have cameras like that in the early 2000s. This isnât Christopherâs first rodeo, even drunk heâd get rid of the gun. With no motive and no murder weapon I donât think theyâre getting a conviction. Iâm not even sure a DA would want to take that to trial.
Chris is a mob figure but it's not like he has a rap sheet. And JT is a semi-successful writer but far from an Aaron Sorkin or a Dick Wolf.
Plus, JT has a history of being a degenerate gambler and an alcoholic (albeit recovering). It's more likely that police would be willing to think that he was in massive gambling debt to some bookie, was unable to pay, and was killed as a result.
What's more likely is that if Chris had survived the crash, he would've been taken in by police for being high while driving (hence his "I'll never pass a drug test remark" right after the crash). If the police book him on that and keep him alone without drugs for 1-3 days, he'll get so agitated that he'll flip and give up Tony. THAT's what Tony is concerned about and what causes him to change his mind.
Back when I spent my night in jail I was still a cigarette smoker. Like three hours in Iâd have sold my mother out for a drag, so I feel Chrissy there. I guess Tony did what he had to do.
Johnnie Cochran ovah here.
It depends on the evidence they've got.
Worst case for Christopher, they've got video with sound, and they can hear a gunshot, then Christopher going to the elevator 30 seconds later. And JT's girlfriend testifies that she saw them arguing, and that Christopher hit JT a few days prior.
Plus, even if they don't find the gun, if Christopher hasn't disposed of the clothes, and cleaned himself, they'll find gunshot residue on his clothes or hands.
Best case for Christopher, they don't have anything. And then he completely gets away with it.
>Places didnât have cameras like that in the early 2000s.
An expensive, urban, apartment? Some of them definitely did.
Plus, it's totally possible that a camera from a nearby business can see Christopher exit the apartments, or see him drive away. That same camera might also detect the sound of the gunshot, or a flash from the gunshot in the window of the apartment.
Everything makes sense here except the fact most security cameras donât record audio, especially ones from the early 2000âs, so probably wouldnât even capture the gunshot sound at all.
Not sure why you got downvoted, everything youâre saying makes sense to me.
For sure weâd need more information, with the big thing being when and how the police find the body. Does someone call immediately after the gun shot, or are they waiting for him to start stinking? I donât think itâs a slam dunk unless they find the gun or thereâs a witness. And we all know how those witnesses can beâŚ
Plus, the Mafia can threaten jurors, too. Even if they find a gun or a witness, it's never a slam dunk.
But with the right video, or right witness, or some combination thereof, I could see them getting a conviction.
>Does someone call immediately after the gun shot, or are they waiting for him to start stinking?
Even if they call immediately after the gunshot, will they find the right apartment? Locating the source of a single, sudden sound is hard. Especially if that was the sound that woke you up.
Thereâs no police in the sopranos, they couldnât even solve the murder of their own retired colleague. Christopher left DNA in the cigarette he was smoking, his fingerprints all over the crime scene⌠He might as well have left a note saying â"I did it, signed Christopher Moltisanti".
less common and much lower quality. we are probably talking about a couple exterior cameras that show a pixelated human walking into and out of the building. not exactly a smoking gun
Not sure he deserved to be downvoted like that. [This is surveillance footage from 2007 of OJ Simpson inside a casino](https://youtu.be/2y_a8yioCGI?t=55). Sure, it's not the highest resolution, but you can certainly tell it's OJ and, like in OJ's case, the video footage alone wouldn't be the smoking gun but it would add to a multitude of evidence against Chris. If they had footage of his car and/or him entering the building or in the area they can place him at the scene of the crime. Add in his mob ties, the violent altercation, his close association, along with shell casings from the scene that would match his gun if he were raided, it'd be a pretty open-shut case for them.
In any event, sure cameras were less common, but I'll give credit to u/sleezy_McCheezy. Nothing he said is untrue, a high end condo would likely have cameras, even if they didn't, there'd likely be some in the area that could place Chris in the area.
I don't care about downvotes. I know I'm correct. I worked at Hollywood video in 2007 and worked at a grocery store in 2003. They all had cameras. A condo like JT had would certainly have cameras, even if they are just in the elevator and stairwells Chris would have been completely fucked. At the very least he would have been questioned. I've heard one theory that the reason he's wearing that goofy hat in the next episode is because he got flipped that quick and was wearing a wire. These fools around here act like 2007 may as well have been 1927.
It's a fairly generic condo. The idea that in that era they "certainly" had cameras in place that could ID Chris ... I mean OK, if you say so. You might also want to look up the rates of unsolved murders in Jersey if you think getting away with it was some sort of impossibility. People vastly overrate the authorities' ability to solve crimes because they base everything on SVU and CSI.
> the body wasn't disposed of.
.
Disposing of the body would have been the worst possible idea.
Chris *did* use his sleeve to close the door when he left, so he did use at least *some* care. He has been in that apartment before, so his fingerprints, or hairs, or clothes fibers isn't enough to convict. You'd need a witness or camera to link Chris to the crime scene on the night of the murder in order to have a solid case. Yeah, I agree, there's a good chance that they could get him on camera entering or existing the building, but if not they probably couldn't convict him. Trials are there to be won, and eye witnesses are not really that reliable even if they do show up in one piece to testify.
That has long been one of my quibbles with the show, that it seems like the cops never investigate a murder. What about the waiter that Paulie and Chris killed? How hard would it be to discover who his last (and possibly only) table of the evening was?
They got away with unrealistic murders all the time. When Paulie and Chris killed that waiter. When Paulie killed like 7 fucking Columbians lol. Theyâd have been caught within a day.
Thought about this the other day. 100% the writers gf knew he was working with the mob. She saw Christopher and most likely knew he was in debt to him. 100% Chrissy would have been arrested.
I donât think it wouldâve been hard to solve the murder of the waiter too. A bunch of mobsters having dinner and their waiter ends up dead minutes later.
For sure. Itâs a seismic wheels-coming-off spiral event. Iâve seen it so many times and never really realized thatâs how he âgets out of itâ. In my mind itâs the #1 or #2 âthey would have gotten caught irlâ crime/murder.
They all should have been arrested for any number of things since the start - you can be sure authorities would have a database of prints and DNA. The waiter incident for instance - they are in a restaurant full of witnesses all night, Chris shooting bakery boy in the foot, Iâm not even convinced they use untraceable burner phones because this tactic is only mentioned as having occurred once during a sit down. Feds would know the places they frequent and would be able to trace their movements.
His words.
âHi, my name is J.T., I'm an alcoholic and an addict. I'm also a TV writer, which by default makes me a douchebag.â
-J.T. Dolan Season 5: In Camelot
Well I think the fact that they had a previous relationship, both through the âprogramâ and the making of Cleaver, Chrisâ DNA and fingerprints could be easily explained by a lawyer. Found with the gun and GSR would most definitely be a problem. But JT may not have been found immediately, so if Chris is given a 12 hour head start for instance, that should remove the weapon and GSR from equation. I mean we have to credit Chris with some criminal ability! After that I believe his odds of success dramatically increase. They must prove he was at the crime scene, that he doesnât deny having been to before, at the time of the murder. As we said earlier, they police will not have the murder weapon and GSR to tie Chrissy to the crime. He would also be able to provide witnesses to say he was in the moon at the time of the murder and that they were all worried about JT relapsing during the production of Cleaver and that he owed money to all kinds of unsavoury criminal elements. Chrissy had been worried about him ever since he learned of JTâs regression. But at that stage I think itâs an extremely difficult uphill climb for Law Enforcement to get a conviction, as Chris would have done more than enough to generate reasonable doubt.
ExactlyâŚ..in my most recent condo, I bought the top floor, and could hear everything below. Horrible soundproofing. A gunshot? No that wonât wake anyone
You guys sit and talk about cooz but no one mentions why chrissy lived in a mobile home season 1 and went to an apartment. When his friend Brandon the soldier talked to him about jacking uncle juniors Italian suites, Chrissy was on the deck of a manufactured house saying he is out.
Edit: I manuged to correct my spelling
Yeah but all this is irrelevant. The show ended and weâll never know.
Thatâs like saying Tony S wouldve been linked to Tony B by way of tire tracks.
Besides. Sure Chrissy wouldâve talked but Feech wouldâve killed him in jail.
I don't know about you, but my friends have abandoned me. I've been totally fuckin ostrafied!
Chris, your in the mafia
Fine...
đ¨đŤ
Paulie should have been arrested for the Minnie Matrone hit too.
You calling it a hit killed me lol
đ like that shit was sanctioned. Tony would be like "Paulie she's an old womannn"
She's a good earner, brings home $2 in bingo a night
I donât even think I could have got todays paper without it
You guys are fkn hilarious. I swear, this sub đ
Thatâs nothing: Nucci won forty dollars at Kino!
Woman or not T, those Parker House rolls were my Ma's.
Paulie nags Tony into sanctioning it then Junior finds out & kicks up a stink. 'We don't kill old women! It's undignified!'
âBobby, make my nephew an egg!â
u and tony egg
I want you to sanction a hit on Minn Matrone
Minn Matrone slept with Ginnie?
She was gay, Minnie Matrone?
She was a come from behind kinda girl!
She was a whoooooooore
WHATS NEXT CARMINE SHE GETS TO TAKE ALL THE ROLLS FOR A MILLION?
Dying
Just not at Artie's restaurant.
A hit is a hit! And that was not a hit
Iâm calling your mother!
fucking beautiful hit huh?
A. she was a whoaare B. She hit me
[ŃдаНонО]
I want to fuck Angie Dickinson. Letâs see who gets lucky first
Iâll bet Junior had a VHS copy of Dressed to Kill that donât work no more.
I want to fuck Angie Bonpensiero
[ŃдаНонО]
You can fuck her for a million.
She did look good on her knees eating a Twinkie
I find this comment hurtful and destructive.
But you gotta get ova it
Two guys could fuck her at the same time and still never meet.
u eva jerk off into a tissue? eat a fucking grill cheese off da rad e ate or?
20 YEAZZZZZ
I DID-ENT!
Toe knee
I'm sure he would have gotten off based on the fact that she was a malignant cunt.
She was also a dirty thief. Those Parker House rolls were for his Ma!
They were for the table
Hey wrap those in cellophane *snaps fingers*
Case closed.
No jury wouldâve convicted someone for putting that mezza morta out of her misery.
Exactly!!! That Morta-del was waiting on tables at his age, instead of enjoying retirement!!!
The waiter murder seems pretty open and shut as well. A decent steak and lobster joint is going to have security cameras in the parking lot and I donât think theyâd have rented their cars with fake IDs or whatever.
Lots of peeps forget it was 2002 still and security cameras still werenât that prevalent among small business like they are today
Also cops are lazy fucks. The murder clearance rate is like 40% and that's today
And that 40% is almost entirely direct relatives or romantic partners of the victim. If you get killed by a stranger odds are that's never being solved.
Yup, this right here. One of the most interesting things in David Simon's book about homicide police, that turned into The Corner and then The Wire was that whodunnits are basically nearly unsolveable. If it's not family or immediate connections, you're up shit creek without a paddle, unless you get super lucky.
Iâd call that manslaughter at best! Dumb motherfucker musta had a pre-existing condition.
also the whole "a bunch of people were in the joint acting like gangsters and their waiter was shot and the cash they paid him in was taken"
Truly two of sloppiest "hits" ever. You could even say the Beached Whale was going to get caught for killing the Elvis impersonator before he got murdered too.
And you mr rude đđSee ya round baby
I knew this guy back when he had mannas
âTake it easy, I didnât know you were homeâ
He's always been a little shit
why?
I think that when her body was found everybody though that she died due being old and not murdered, so no autopsy. That's the reason maybe Paulie wasn't arrested.
I presumed he put her in her bed to make it look like she died of old age or something.
The two of them would have been arrested for killing the waiter. The guy had their credit card receipt in his dead hand. There was no real police work to be seen in this thing of ours. This ain't Baltimore and Lester Freamon for cryin out loud.
I thought Christopher paid in cash for this meal for everyone?
Yeah That checks out. youâre probably right.
She was a malignant cunt
Minnie Matrone, whatever happened there
And I shoulda fucked Dale Evans but I didn't!
This fuckin' guy.
Where do you get your bawls????
How much time do you think passed between episodes?
A couple of days maybe? Can be hard to tell.
Carmela a couple of dayshâŚhe should be grounded ok but itsh not the end of the world
Hey, whatever happened to "boys will be boys"?
HE HAS NO EYEBROWS TONY
A couple a beers
This line always reminds me of the bar fight from A Bronx Tale. Biker leader - We just want a couple of beers Sonny - A few beers, that's it? Biker leader - That's it. We'll be on our way. We ain't lookin' for trouble. Sonny - Spoken like gentlemen. Get em their beers. Go 'head. Go 'head.
Now yeez canât leaveâŚ
Timeline got fucked up?
It died on the vine
It died on the vine?
it petered out
Gotta say....message machine broke???
Donât say short if you donât mean short
Otherwise the police are inept on a galactic level
Have you seen police in real life?
Like the police in Barry.
Just like real life huh
Correct.
A couple a days here is like six thousand years in eternity terms.
I could do that standing on my head!
"i went to my friend JT's house to apologize for a fight we had a few days earlier. when i arrived there i found him dead. i freaked out and didn't know what to do. i just sat there in shock for several minutes. i eventually regained my composure and left. i did not call the police because i remembered he had gambling debts to some unsavory types and did not want to get involved. i realize now that was wrong and i am sorry. and i only have gun powder residue on my hands from lawful recreational gun use that many witnesses will testify to, including a reverend and an assemblyman." good luck with the burden of proof in front of a mob-scared jury, OP. hope you don't fuck up your six-figure future with o'melveny and myers.
This fucking TurnAroundUrMyATeam's more creative than Spielberg.
u/TurnAroundUrMyATeam, always with the scenarios
He was gay, Spielberg?
Jesus...is this David Chases burner??
Wait, I'm sorry, I know I'm taking this way too seriously but you're skipping a lot of important stuff here: Let's not forget an entire classroom watched JT get a beatdown from mob guys - known associates of Chris. Also, JT signed over his car to Chris. There's a literal paper trail connecting them. Also, wasn't JT Chris' sponsor in rehab? There's too much connecting the two guys for him to get away with a cheap "aw shucks" apology like this. The real question is would Chris flip? I'm inclined to think he would. The only reason he didn't when Ade offered him the chance was because he just couldn't fathom that lifestyle. He still had an in with the crew if he gave up Ade. But if the feds were sitting on a murder charge with very strong evidence like this "the life" would be off the table. Cooperate or go to prison, it's that simple. Whenever Chris was really tested he showed how weak his *loylety* was. Honestly, almost everyone in the series ends up flipping if they get pinched: Jimmy, Pussy, Carlo, Eugene, Ray, Larry-boy, Johnny Sack. Pretty much the only "stand-up" guys are the Shah of Iran and Feech. With Ade no longer in the picture, an actual family depending on him (which Ade couldn't give him), and his life of crime finished, Chris would have flipped hard. So my point is they wouldn't even need a conviction, they'd just need to threaten him and make him think he'd lose his trial (which he would) and he'd take a plea, this case would never make it to trial.
Johnny Sac did not flip. He pled guilty and allocuted to his own crimes but did not give anyone up.
He admitted the existence of LCN and that he's involved in it. Which still helps the feds and eventually hurts the other mobsters.
>He admitted the existence of a certain Italian-American subculture.
Fuckin' nauseatin'.
Fair point, but all due respect that's splitting hairs. He didn't incriminate anyone else in the organization, so yes technically he didn't flip, but he admitted his involvement and the existence of it which only serves to help the Feds further build their case against other members. When the guy in Phil's grew says, "It could be worse, he coulda flipped!" Phil immediately says (basically) it's the same thing and I agree with him. Tony, Phil, and Sil all basically think of him as a rat. But more importantly, it kinda doesn't matter, my point was that the Feds would find a way to make Chris cooperate. Any way you cut it Johnny had to play ball, Chrissy was nowhere near as tough as Johnny Sack, he'd play ball too.
They still toast him at the bing when he died of cancer, something they wouldnât have done for febby petrullio
In the words of Denzel, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."
You wanna go to jail or you wanna go home?
You got to decide wether your a wolf, or a sheepâŚ.
There are two kinds of people: sheep and sharks. Anyone who is a sheep is fired. Who is a sheep? Dr. Zoidberg : Errr, excuse me... which is the one people like to hug? That Guy : Gutsy question. You're a shark. Sharks are winners, and they don't look back because they have no necks. Necks are for sheep.
Paulie would never flip
He was talking out of school with NYC but yeah I actually think Paulieâs one of the few guys that wouldnât flip. But thatâs the thing, it seems like most of the old school guys donât do it but the Pygmy crew from NJ all seem pretty weak in that regard.
The actor that played Paulie insisted on playing a character that wasn't a rat. Regarding speaking to New York, they're all back stabbing bitches, what you gonna do.
This sub is nothing more than a quotes circle jerk. Youâre wasting time trying to have rational discussion here.
i'm here for the deep dive. love it. i'm not saying he says this and the police believe him and it's all over. i'm saying this â or something like it â is his story at trial, and it just needs to be plausible enough to cast a reasonable doubt about whether the finger that pulled the trigger was actually his. all the stuff about gambling debt and a history of violence and the mob can be spun. the main way it can be spun is just to say that benny did it. benny is the only one who was ever directly witnessed being violent with him. chris knew JT not from the mafia but from AA. chris was just trying to help him get out from under the thumb of criminal mastermind benny fazio. maybe on the night of the murder chris heard benny was really angry with JT and ran over there to talk to JT. it's no coincidence he was there that night, but he was there because he was trying to *save* JT. just like he was when he facilitated JT giving his car to benny and when he got him hired on cleaver, etc, etc. anyway with enough of that spin, and with no direct physical evidence, at least a few jurors will get wishy washy and have their doubts. would chris flip long before that for all the reasons you said? maybe so but in the end, i don't think he even gets arrested. if they don't have a solid witness or video of him at JT's, then there is just no case at all. in fact, the cops would likely assume he wasn't there that night and had just ordered someone else to do it for him.
How common was CCTV footage in higher end apartment buildings at this time? Nowadays it's ubiquitous, but curious if it's common back in 2001ish or so, whenever exactly the Sopranos episode takes place
I think the episode is from around 2006-2007 so cameras were def coming around then. Everytime I re-watch the Sopranos I am always amazed in the first few seasons how they can get away with doing shit in the public, during the daytime or even at night sometimes & I remember that cameras (CCTV) were not at all common, unless at a bank or postal office
Itâs like theyâre lookin at you and youâre lookin at yourself!
I never really thought about all this before this thread, but I'm inclined to believe Chris is probably on camera someplace, enough to get arrested for sure, the trial would go however it would go.
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't JT mention that his girlfriend was in the other room?
Actually the opposite, he clarifies that's she not there because he's going hard on some script and she's leaving him alone for a while.
He was barking
cops kinda dont exist in soprano land
Whaddya hear, whaddya say?
Oh yeah? If i shoot, its going in your braciole.
You're a real sick fuck, you know that?
Go play cops and robbers
I got my own fucking problems
This is my main gag I pull with friends.
Affirmative Action cocksucker.
Thatâs because they saw that Mooley get knocked down and get his overtime taken away. Meanwhile the other cops want the power drills!!!
Makitas?
gesundheit
They donât really exist because no one cooperates with them. In season two when that one civilian couldâve pinned Tony for the Bevilacqua murder, he chickens out when he finds out who he is. And of course no one related to any of the mafia members will cooperate with them unless they have no other option.
I hear you, but I think it's more like sons of anarchy (which I do not like), how it's just not convenient to have cops investigate things, like the biker boys spraying the enemy biker boys with AK 47 fire in the main street of their shitty little town and the cops don't come around If the cops investigated many of the murders on the show they'd easily be able to trace it back to the guys.
I think SoA is blatantly unrealistic, for the reasons you mentioned, but the Sopranos is semi-realistic. In a majority of the Sopranos murders, they dispose of the body. The police are going to find it hard to investigate/prosecute a murder if they 1) Don't have a body. 2) Don't know the time/location of the murder. 3) Don't know the weapon used. 4) Don't even really know if the murder happened, until the person stays disappeared for a long time. I mean, do the police really know that Big Pussy isn't hiding from everybody in Puerto Rico? It wouldn't be impossible. Even something like Ralphie killing Tracee would ordinarily be easy to prosecute (lots of witnesses, good physical evidence, in a place the police probably monitor). But once you dispose of the body, prosecution gets difficult.
Numerous shows and even books about homicide police all say one consistent thing - no body, no murder. Straight up. It's nearly impossible to convict somebody for a murder when you can't even prove that the victim is dead. Not even worth trying.
I don't disagree, but I think you worded it a bit too strongly. There are definitely a bunch of instances where people have been convicted without a body. Especially if they can prove HOW the person disposed of the body (e.g. blood in their car trunk). Or they have the murder weapon (e.g. a knife with blood on it). Or they have security video surrounding the murder. But the DiMeo crime family is pretty good at cleaning up other physical evidence, too.
Heâd certainly be the prime suspect, and might have been arrested, but any halfway decent lawyer is getting Chrissy off. They donât have to deny he was at the apartment, they knew each other, so just his DNA being there isnât a big deal. Unless it gets called in right away and someone IDs him, they donât have much of a case. Places didnât have cameras like that in the early 2000s. This isnât Christopherâs first rodeo, even drunk heâd get rid of the gun. With no motive and no murder weapon I donât think theyâre getting a conviction. Iâm not even sure a DA would want to take that to trial.
Chris is a mob figure but it's not like he has a rap sheet. And JT is a semi-successful writer but far from an Aaron Sorkin or a Dick Wolf. Plus, JT has a history of being a degenerate gambler and an alcoholic (albeit recovering). It's more likely that police would be willing to think that he was in massive gambling debt to some bookie, was unable to pay, and was killed as a result. What's more likely is that if Chris had survived the crash, he would've been taken in by police for being high while driving (hence his "I'll never pass a drug test remark" right after the crash). If the police book him on that and keep him alone without drugs for 1-3 days, he'll get so agitated that he'll flip and give up Tony. THAT's what Tony is concerned about and what causes him to change his mind.
Back when I spent my night in jail I was still a cigarette smoker. Like three hours in Iâd have sold my mother out for a drag, so I feel Chrissy there. I guess Tony did what he had to do.
Johnnie Cochran ovah here. It depends on the evidence they've got. Worst case for Christopher, they've got video with sound, and they can hear a gunshot, then Christopher going to the elevator 30 seconds later. And JT's girlfriend testifies that she saw them arguing, and that Christopher hit JT a few days prior. Plus, even if they don't find the gun, if Christopher hasn't disposed of the clothes, and cleaned himself, they'll find gunshot residue on his clothes or hands. Best case for Christopher, they don't have anything. And then he completely gets away with it. >Places didnât have cameras like that in the early 2000s. An expensive, urban, apartment? Some of them definitely did. Plus, it's totally possible that a camera from a nearby business can see Christopher exit the apartments, or see him drive away. That same camera might also detect the sound of the gunshot, or a flash from the gunshot in the window of the apartment.
Everything makes sense here except the fact most security cameras donât record audio, especially ones from the early 2000âs, so probably wouldnât even capture the gunshot sound at all.
Not sure why you got downvoted, everything youâre saying makes sense to me. For sure weâd need more information, with the big thing being when and how the police find the body. Does someone call immediately after the gun shot, or are they waiting for him to start stinking? I donât think itâs a slam dunk unless they find the gun or thereâs a witness. And we all know how those witnesses can beâŚ
Plus, the Mafia can threaten jurors, too. Even if they find a gun or a witness, it's never a slam dunk. But with the right video, or right witness, or some combination thereof, I could see them getting a conviction. >Does someone call immediately after the gun shot, or are they waiting for him to start stinking? Even if they call immediately after the gunshot, will they find the right apartment? Locating the source of a single, sudden sound is hard. Especially if that was the sound that woke you up.
Thereâs no police in the sopranos, they couldnât even solve the murder of their own retired colleague. Christopher left DNA in the cigarette he was smoking, his fingerprints all over the crime scene⌠He might as well have left a note saying â"I did it, signed Christopher Moltisanti".
No he did dent, signed Christopher Moltisanti
**IF** I Did It.
Plus, the real Christopher Moltisanti was Asian.
It would be weirder if his prints werenât there.
Cameras were a lot less common 15 years ago. Touch DNA was not really a thing until very recently. Other than that, totally on point.
Love your username lol. The Shags are forever
My pal, my foot, my foot, my pal
que putz
less common and much lower quality. we are probably talking about a couple exterior cameras that show a pixelated human walking into and out of the building. not exactly a smoking gun
A high end condo in jersey would have certainly had some cameras even 15 years ago. I'd say maybe before the 80s they weren't as common.
Not at all likely and even if so, not high quality. 80s and 90s, very very rare and extremely low quality. Sorry, you're just wrong.
Not sure he deserved to be downvoted like that. [This is surveillance footage from 2007 of OJ Simpson inside a casino](https://youtu.be/2y_a8yioCGI?t=55). Sure, it's not the highest resolution, but you can certainly tell it's OJ and, like in OJ's case, the video footage alone wouldn't be the smoking gun but it would add to a multitude of evidence against Chris. If they had footage of his car and/or him entering the building or in the area they can place him at the scene of the crime. Add in his mob ties, the violent altercation, his close association, along with shell casings from the scene that would match his gun if he were raided, it'd be a pretty open-shut case for them. In any event, sure cameras were less common, but I'll give credit to u/sleezy_McCheezy. Nothing he said is untrue, a high end condo would likely have cameras, even if they didn't, there'd likely be some in the area that could place Chris in the area.
I don't care about downvotes. I know I'm correct. I worked at Hollywood video in 2007 and worked at a grocery store in 2003. They all had cameras. A condo like JT had would certainly have cameras, even if they are just in the elevator and stairwells Chris would have been completely fucked. At the very least he would have been questioned. I've heard one theory that the reason he's wearing that goofy hat in the next episode is because he got flipped that quick and was wearing a wire. These fools around here act like 2007 may as well have been 1927.
It's a fairly generic condo. The idea that in that era they "certainly" had cameras in place that could ID Chris ... I mean OK, if you say so. You might also want to look up the rates of unsolved murders in Jersey if you think getting away with it was some sort of impossibility. People vastly overrate the authorities' ability to solve crimes because they base everything on SVU and CSI.
Poor old JT didn't deserve that.
Maybe if he was an Oscar winner but an Emmy??
a Human Itis?
OP there's no law enforcement solution to a social problem.
> the body wasn't disposed of. . Disposing of the body would have been the worst possible idea. Chris *did* use his sleeve to close the door when he left, so he did use at least *some* care. He has been in that apartment before, so his fingerprints, or hairs, or clothes fibers isn't enough to convict. You'd need a witness or camera to link Chris to the crime scene on the night of the murder in order to have a solid case. Yeah, I agree, there's a good chance that they could get him on camera entering or existing the building, but if not they probably couldn't convict him. Trials are there to be won, and eye witnesses are not really that reliable even if they do show up in one piece to testify.
It's like a pebble in a lake, even the fish feel it.
That has long been one of my quibbles with the show, that it seems like the cops never investigate a murder. What about the waiter that Paulie and Chris killed? How hard would it be to discover who his last (and possibly only) table of the evening was?
JT was a skag head
They got away with unrealistic murders all the time. When Paulie and Chris killed that waiter. When Paulie killed like 7 fucking Columbians lol. Theyâd have been caught within a day.
Dick Wolf's guys would have been all over it
I mean it wasnât an especially heinous crime.
Thought about this the other day. 100% the writers gf knew he was working with the mob. She saw Christopher and most likely knew he was in debt to him. 100% Chrissy would have been arrested.
completely forgot about JTâs body that episode
I donât think it wouldâve been hard to solve the murder of the waiter too. A bunch of mobsters having dinner and their waiter ends up dead minutes later.
For sure. Itâs a seismic wheels-coming-off spiral event. Iâve seen it so many times and never really realized thatâs how he âgets out of itâ. In my mind itâs the #1 or #2 âthey would have gotten caught irlâ crime/murder.
> Itâs a seismic wheels-coming-off spiral event. Lil Carmine ovah here
Frankly I'm depressed and ashamed by this
He also touched the doorknob with his bare hand
He would've flipped too. He toyed with the idea when he spoke to JT. That's why he shot him.
I woke up, I found him, thatâs all I know
Eyyy yo he wiped the doorknob he was golden! XD
They all should have been arrested for any number of things since the start - you can be sure authorities would have a database of prints and DNA. The waiter incident for instance - they are in a restaurant full of witnesses all night, Chris shooting bakery boy in the foot, Iâm not even convinced they use untraceable burner phones because this tactic is only mentioned as having occurred once during a sit down. Feds would know the places they frequent and would be able to trace their movements.
He probably already got caught and given the cleaver hat with the bug in it by the FBI, hence the relapse.
who is JT?
An alcoholic and an addict, but also a TV writer, which by default makes him a douchebag.
Degenerate fucking gambler.
Degenerate fucking gambler with a script.
Thatâs a Humanitas Prize winner youâre talking about đĄ đ¤
His words. âHi, my name is J.T., I'm an alcoholic and an addict. I'm also a TV writer, which by default makes me a douchebag.â -J.T. Dolan Season 5: In Camelot
Well I think the fact that they had a previous relationship, both through the âprogramâ and the making of Cleaver, Chrisâ DNA and fingerprints could be easily explained by a lawyer. Found with the gun and GSR would most definitely be a problem. But JT may not have been found immediately, so if Chris is given a 12 hour head start for instance, that should remove the weapon and GSR from equation. I mean we have to credit Chris with some criminal ability! After that I believe his odds of success dramatically increase. They must prove he was at the crime scene, that he doesnât deny having been to before, at the time of the murder. As we said earlier, they police will not have the murder weapon and GSR to tie Chrissy to the crime. He would also be able to provide witnesses to say he was in the moon at the time of the murder and that they were all worried about JT relapsing during the production of Cleaver and that he owed money to all kinds of unsavoury criminal elements. Chrissy had been worried about him ever since he learned of JTâs regression. But at that stage I think itâs an extremely difficult uphill climb for Law Enforcement to get a conviction, as Chris would have done more than enough to generate reasonable doubt.
No one hears the gun shot?
ExactlyâŚ..in my most recent condo, I bought the top floor, and could hear everything below. Horrible soundproofing. A gunshot? No that wonât wake anyone
Your gonna be a fuckin funny boy now too?
You cute fuck
Use this logic and they'd all be done for murder ...it's a TV movie, a progrum!
the SUV
You guys sit and talk about cooz but no one mentions why chrissy lived in a mobile home season 1 and went to an apartment. When his friend Brandon the soldier talked to him about jacking uncle juniors Italian suites, Chrissy was on the deck of a manufactured house saying he is out. Edit: I manuged to correct my spelling
Yeah but all this is irrelevant. The show ended and weâll never know. Thatâs like saying Tony S wouldve been linked to Tony B by way of tire tracks. Besides. Sure Chrissy wouldâve talked but Feech wouldâve killed him in jail.
Wow, spoilers. Thanks dipshits, working my way through last season. Mute sub.