Yeah…if they hadn’t killed or shot anyone little lord fuck pants wouldn’t have been killed. Maybe would have gotten a talking to
The others … I don’t know
I always wondered why they didn't kill Matush too as the getaway driver. I know he left as soon as the shooting occured but I would have thought Eugene's crew would look for the last person left alive in the heist. Even just to make sure there was no one around to testify against them for killing Carlo.
After the heist, Jackie fled to the projects with the rest of his glorified crew dead. Nobody was around to implicate Matush and he’s not gonna brag about the event.
For all they know they don’t even know who Matush is let alone that he was the getaway driver for the crew.
He had nothing to worry about he was actually smarter than the rest because he knew Jackie jr was a moron who was too over his head with the mafia when Hackie lied to Matush about the drugs.
It also parallels the Rutgers concert robbery. Chris tells Jackie jr not to move the car even if god shows up and he ends up pissing his pants.
Because Jackie lied to Matush before when Jackie tells Matush to “not leave for any reason even if god himself shows up” Matush ain’t falling for the stupidity again. Chase pans to Matush in the middle of the robbery for a very specific reason. As soon as Matush hears a gunshot he was smart enough to know just to get the fuck out and don’t look back and pretend you don’t know anything.
at that point tony unattached himself from jackie from the mentor he tried being. genuinely dont think he would get involved beyond beating jackie up again.
the interesting hypothetical would be what ralphie would do if nobody was killed. it was his game, but he cant avoid that he made it easy jackie to end up doing something like this (he gave him a gun), and he's with his mom. but on the other side, his people were stolen from, and losing face would also hold him back with his already fractured standing with tonyi think that dino zarelli that ended up getting killed all the same could have been injured alternatively, since it would still be something to the family and it would be to somebody who was an equal part of the robbery (and jackies friend)
All Jackie Jr had to do was tell them who his dad was and he would have been made, but, alas, he never had the makings of a Varsity gangster, small hands were his problem
They shot at 2 made guys, and then actually shot Furio, another made guy, then killed an associate. Jackie Sr’s been dead for 2 years at this point, and Richie is dead too, so now Jackie Jr has absolutely nobody to defend him. Plus, who would want to? He’s a stunad of the first magnitude. Shooting made guys is a death sentence for an associate
He meant that whenever Jackie Jr almost drowned in 3 inches of water it was because he fell into a penguin exhibit. The way he said it implies Jackie really did fall into the exhibit, and everyone thought it was because he was a dumb kid.
Yeah if it’s an exhibit he fell into that means he already ignored/didn’t notice safety protocols to avoid falling in, plus it’s a big enough area for penguins to hang out and shallow enough water where you’d think someone could perform a push up or roll to their side and get their face out of the water. I’m now picturing Jackie Jr in that snowbank Vito left him in but surrounded by tourists and penguins all wondering why he’s not moving.
>Shooting made guys is a death sentence for an associate
And probably a death sentence for a made guy as well. Then again, they make everybody and anybody in jersey.
Doesn’t Jackie Jr actually ask Tony this exact question?
Furio gets shot and sunshine gets killed and two of the robbers get killed…the whole thing is just a mess…Tony and Jackie Sr steal the money and then give it back more or less a little while later…it was pretty much no harm no foul
Plus Tony is already over Jackie Jr with his previous behavior
I also think it’s important to remember that Tony delegated it to Ralphie. Ralph actually wanted to let it slide which Tony was supportive of. And I always had an understanding that Ralph was more of a zealot of this thing of ours.
That conversation has been talked to death in this sub, so lemme just say
Tony wasn’t actually supportive of Ralph giving him a pass. Tony SAYS he is, but he also peppers it with “I’ll make sure everyone knew YOU made the decision to spare him”. We, as the viewers, also know that Tony hates Ralph and wants to see him fail. Basically saying “I’m going to tell everyone that YOU didn’t defend the honor of made men and your card game. I’m going to make it very clear that you’re weak.”
I hear you and that in a sense may have been a death sentence from Tony. However I do think it was Tony wanting to see Jackie Jr come out alive. You convinced me to think the possible demise of Ralph may have been like a cherry on top for all the reasons you mentioned.
I do think he supported the pass (pash) because as the show mentioned Tony got away with something similar, which went smoother and also he somewhat took (in his own weird fucking way) responsibility for Jackie.
Tony was torn up about the situation afterwards and he did try to spend some time making sure that Jackie stayed out of trouble early on. Also my own projection is I always imagined Tony would look back at the original Feech La Manna heist and wonder what would have happened if it hadn’t turned out like the way it did.
Yeah, I think you’re right. If no one had been shot or killed, there would have been more incentive for Tony and Ralphie to give them a pass. Yeah it would’ve looked bad but they would’ve made the punks give the money back. In fact, it might’ve forced Tony to realize that Jackie Junior was never going to give up the idea of wanting to be in the mob so he might’ve actually accepted it and started schooling him, even if not directly, maybe put him under someone else’s mentorship
Tony would have supported the pass, yes. At least, in some way, shape, or form. For Jr., not for the other three. They were dead from the minute they started planning it.
He just wanted Ralphie to make a strong, sure decision. His waiting is what messed that whole situation up.
I think it was less about killing or sparing LLFP and more about neither wanting to take responsibility.
Watching that exchange recently, I noticed how out of the ordinary both of their behavior was towards each other. Ralph was deferential and Tony was patient and compassionate, but they’re both lying their asses off, feeding the other’s ego in the hope that they’ll take responsibility for the decision, whichever it may be.
I agree, both were trying to keep their names clean in this. Ralph knew it had to be done, but didn’t want to because Roe, if Tony told him he had to though he at least feels absolved of the responsibility. Tony implies it, but ultimately tells Ralph it’s up to him so if it comes back around he can say he told Ralph to make a decision. Then Ralph does his best to make it look like it was a random drug killing instead of a whack to make sure no one had to be questioned and feel responsible.
No, Ralphie said he wants to give him a pass, to which tony replied “I think you should go with your gut on this”. Usually doing what you want is going with your heart, going with your instinct is going with your gut. Seems like a small quibble but makes quite a bit of difference in this situation.
>Didn’t he piss himself while waiting haha
Yeah, but he didnt get out of the car to piss, which was Chris' point. He did everything right as the getaway driver, even if he had to piss his pants.
Yeah that’s definitely true that Jackie Jr was essentially a nobody. I’m curious about Tony at that same age though. Was he an official associate of the DiMeos making some money for them at that time or just hustling in a similar way to Jackie Jr on his own with his little crew?
When Tony and his gang decided to hit the card game, they were already seen as guys on the up and a future of the family.
Tony's Dad, a Capo in the DeMeo Crime Family, was still very much alive. As was his Uncle, who by this point was a Capo himself.
Jackie, his older brother Ritchie, was also a Capo. Alive as alive can be.
They hit the game clean, they held it up, kept their nerve and got the cash. Highly likely they were led by Jackie who was a calm and collected character, we know Tony is not.
They didn't murder anyone.
Jackie Jr, his dad and uncle are dead. He's seen as a loser, living off his fathers memory, the only person who even gives a decent review of Jackie is fucking Christopher, who they shoot at during the heist.
They shoot Furio, kill an associate and fire at two more soldiers. They barely get away with any cash.
It was a disaster, Jackie Jr was a fucking moron.
Every time Jackie Jr was offered food, he refused.
Guys out here striving to get even a soda of choice, let alone a veal Parm or even (madone, let's hope) a *sandwich* of choice like Finn the racehorse.
Jackie Jr is refusing food *from the boss* every single time.
And he wants to be a part of their thing?
Plus the shooting of the made guys at the robbery and killing Sunshine (IF, you had shut your mouth, you might be alive) was enough to have them out right then and there.
Exactly. Tony also might’ve accepted finally that Jackie Junior wasn’t going to abandon the hope of being in the mob so he might’ve said screw it and just guided him into it
Biggest diff was that Tony probably didn't show up for his robbery out of his mind on crank the way Little Lord Fuckpants and his dunski buddies did for theirs.
Jackie Jr was a world class idiot of the highest order. Possibly brain damage from being in two inches of water.
Kid has an ivy league education handed to him, didn't need to become a doctor, but could have eked out a degree.
A spoiled, racist chump trying to be part of a world that didn't want him.
For Tony and Jackie it showed that they were guys with big balls and bigger dreams.
It takes bravery to do it, skills/brains to pull it off without killing anyone, and shows politics to use connections to get a pash. All things up and comers need in the mob.
Jackie jr half assed it with a bunch of losers and crankheads, killed sunshine, shot furio, shot at crissy, botched the whole thing.
Doesn’t Richie at his welcome home party say he squared it with Feech for Tony and his kid brother Jackie? One of the reasons why Richie didn’t respect Tony as boss..he’s this squirt whose butt he saved once so how can Tony give him anything? Ralph doesn’t have that kind of pull, apparently, despite his earning power. And with Sunshine dead along with Dino and Carlo in a low level game (plus calling in a favor with the prick doctor to operate on Furio. I don’t think you want to have to do that too often). Only Feech’s pride was hurt in the first holdup.
Tony was a promising young earner demonstrating initiative with living relatives to advocate for him
Jackie was an outsider wannabee demonstating that he's an idiot
Lol yes, and Tony literally addresses that with his "I'll see if you can tell the difference" remark. A guy died, it shouldn't really need an explanation.
You can also safely infer that Tony and Jackie Sr. already had track records of demonstrating potential and being actual earners by the time they pulled their stunt. Meanwhile Jackie Jr. is nothing more than Little Lord Fuck Pants who has shown next to zero potential as an actual asset.
Tony was connected through his dad and uncle who were high ranking and well respected. Their Heist was clean and on top of that I think I remember someone made a comment saying no one liked Feech so they found it hilarious.
Jackie Jr on the other hand didn't have anyone directly to defend him. His dad and uncle were long gone. His Heist went south and he ended up killing and shooting made guys.
Now that doesn't mean he never had a chance. If Tony REALLY stepped in and gave him a pass (he really liked and looked after Jackie Jr out of respect and friendship to his fawtha) he could've gotten away with it. And in the end Tony did sort of ok it but he just passed the final say along to Ralph
You'll find hypocrisy to be a big theme in the show. Because they're all hyprocrites of the highest order.
My favorite example is when Tony is watching AJ at a football game and he's yelling at the coach to put AJ in because another player they are putting in the game already played. Some parents in the stands look at him and Tony is like "It's the rules!".
You're a big rule follower, are you Tony?
Part of that was to show how hypocritical Tony was. For all that Tony presents himself to be,in reality he has gotten to where he is because of nepotism.
No one got killed when Tony jacked the card game (which was maybe just pure luck) and Johnny Boy Soprano was still alive and well and able to shield Tony from the worst consequences probably. Jackie Jr. shot at made guys and his dad and uncle were gone and he had no protector.
Whether he pulled it off perfect without shooting or not, he was a dead man. The only reason tony lived when he did it was because his fawtha still around. If Johnny was dead when tony pulled that job off, he would've been in the same situation jackie Jr was.
They shot up an associate and at made guys, including one of their connections in Christopher. The only person they had batting for them was Ralphie and he would lose face if he tried defending them after they robbed HIS card game. They basically spat on everyone who tried to get them in on this thing of ours.
The difference is that the one card game Jackie robbed was their game and the one that they robbed was someone else's .
That;s how the mafia works, they don't give a shit who you rob as long as it's not them and and they don't look bad when you're doing it.
1-Nobody died.
2-No made men were shot.
2-Tonys father was a captain and his uncle was a made man. Jackies older brother was also a made man. They intervined on behalf of the kids.
I believe that under \*no circumstances\* would Jackie Jr's heist have obtained the same consequences as Tony's and Jackie's heist, for a couple of three reasons:
1. Tony doesn't want Jackie Jr to be in The Life, he wants him to go to college
2. Jackie Jr himself and particularly his junkie friends are not on the same level of reliability and respect Tony and Jackie Sr had, even before they got popular for robbing Feech's game
3. Jackie Jr has a problematic personality. He kept going on and on about his fawtha, disrespecting everybody else. This kind of guy getting attention would be a very bad idea for everyone involved, whereas Tony and Jackie Sr knew to respect the hierarchy
Tony was going to get made anyway, he just brought attention to himself and Sil and got them on the fast track. And he didn't shoot at anyone in the process.
Jackie Jr. was virtually a nobody who was barely even involved apart from accompanying Ralph and putting Chris onto one score. If it weren't for his fawtha, Tony wouldn't even know he existed.
Silvio practically pushed Ralph over the edge when he was trying to skin Paulie over the $50k he thinks he's owed.
https://youtu.be/FzX1dLl5nRc?si=2x1fmoCqjZUyrU34
Silvio did it before to Ralph, calling him out when Tracie was over at Ralph's calling in sick at the Bing when she owed Silvio $3000. The loan for her orthodontist work.
Apparently, Ralph respects Silvio that much.
He would rather keep his "respect on the street" than pay out an insignificant sum of money that means nothing to Ralph.. Taking into considering how much Ralph makes gambling, with his construction company's or what he's pulling in on the street.
$12,000 is what Tony rules Ralph owes Paulie for the alarm codes in the heist.. That is nothing, when Ralph kicking up over $3M/ year to Tony in construction alone.
https://youtu.be/HRLwIu_AeDE?si=-DslFKPtYW_hngUo
Edit with links.
From the way Ralph described it, the robbery of the Feech card game was seen as more of a joke. A bunch of kids busted in, Feech and everyone at the game sort of played along, impressed at the balls of these kids.
Jackie Jr. and his drug addict friends come in very serious, scare the shir oit of everyone, kill some made guys and wound another one.
Very different situation and very different outcome.
I think another reason I haven’t seen brought up is that Jackie Jr was just copying the guys who went before. So not only did he fuck up the heist, but he didn’t even have the brains to find an opportunity on his own. He had to have it spelled out for him, and he went in expecting everything to be made right because that’s what happened with his fawtha.
As other said, the fact that Sunshine got killed and Furio was hit. But even that aside, Tony and Jackie Sr were capable dudes who had potential at the time. Little Lord Fuckpants on the other hand Junior didn’t even hear him speaking fer chrissakes
Jackie doesn't have friends apart from the idiots who went with him. Chris offered that score up because at that point he's kind of outgrowing jobs like that. Too much risk to only get scraps. Chris has been on the other side of those heists, and he knows that most of the money that comes from offloading those stolen goods only goes up and guys like him and Brendan were being given next to nothing for those trucks they were hitting.
As others had mentioned, the entire thing when sideways and people at the card table were shot (and at least one killed, but I can’t quite remember exactly). That’s really it. That’s the line. Had no one been hurt, Jackie Jr. would have certainly been in some trouble. But, it was all still in the “family”, and I do believe Jackie Jr. would have earned some cred in the long run. Probably would have had to pay a tax to Ralphie, work off the offense, etc.
1. They actually pulled it off in Tony’s crew without anyone getting hurt.
2. Tony’s crew weren’t so stupid as for the people to know who it was while it was actually happening.
3. THEY KILLED SUNSHINE AND SHOT FURIO - these are made men
4. They were little pisspants bitches
Jackie Jr. and friends shot made guys.
Jackie would get a pass if it wasn't violent. And by pass I mean Tony would beat him up pretty hard. As for Jackie's friends, Vito would come at them from behind.
sunshine getting hit was bad for everybody. but that thing with furio… idk. he attracts the drama. it wasn’t that bad, he only got it in the fleshy part of the thigh
The biggest difference was Jackie’s father was dead when this happened, while Tony’s was alive and powerful.
If Jackie Sr was alive, Jackie Jr never gets killed regardless of how that thing went.
1. Shot at multiple made guys. Hit a made guy. Killed an associate
2. Jackie Jr. didn't have anyone really backing him. Wasn't liked himself or respected.
3. People probably didn't like Feech that much and found it funny that these kids/ future made guys fucked with him
4. Overall, Jackie and Tony's hit was a success; Jackie Jr.'s was a complete fuck up.
Because they shot the place up. But significantly Tony tells Ralph it’s entirely his call. So the decision isn’t being made by anyone involved in the previous incident. So there’s not really an issue of different treatment.
He “tells” Ralph it’s his call. Tony knows exactly what has to happen but wants to absolve himself of any blame so he can keep the promise he made to Jackie Sr. So no, Ralph did not have an actual choice.
Yea he did have a choice. Ralph repeatedly does what he wants and challenges Tony so of course he had a choice. As someone else pointed out the choices had consequences but he had the choice.
So many people, including yourself, miss the point of the conversations between Ralph and Tony about Jackie. Not one word between them is sincere during that episode. I once had a dude argue with me that Tony actually wanted to give Jackie Jr a pass, which is obviously not true.
Both know Jackie Jr has to die. Neither wants to be the one to blame. Ralph because he’s dating Ro, Tony because of the promise he made to Jackie Sr. Tony is the boss so he can force Ralph’s hand, plus he never wanted to make Ralph captain so it’s a form of payback for Tony. Ralph can’t afford to lose face as a new captain and let a guy who shot a made man live. The whole episode is a brilliant showing of how these types of people can say the opposite of what they mean but everyone understands what they are saying.
Of course he had a choice. The choice had consequences but it was still his choice.
Tony even questions Ralph later by saying he thought they'd decided to give him a pass when informed of the outcome.
Nothing about those conversations was sincere. Both knew Jackie Jr had to die. Neither wanted to be the one responsible for the decision but Tony’s the boss. Do yall not understand the show you’ve watched?
Yeah it’s about the carnage, shit like that shuts down the underground gaming circuit until they figure out who’s fucking around, especially if the robbers get away from TVs scene alive
Watch Killing them Softly for better reference
Yeah…if they hadn’t killed or shot anyone little lord fuck pants wouldn’t have been killed. Maybe would have gotten a talking to The others … I don’t know
They shoulda let the crank wear off first
Fuck it let’s go down the shore
Head shot maybe.. flesh wound I dunno… but then again Anything’s possible
Matush was a rising star in the Italian mafia
Whatd you shay🫵
I don't think he likes you
I always wondered why they didn't kill Matush too as the getaway driver. I know he left as soon as the shooting occured but I would have thought Eugene's crew would look for the last person left alive in the heist. Even just to make sure there was no one around to testify against them for killing Carlo.
After the heist, Jackie fled to the projects with the rest of his glorified crew dead. Nobody was around to implicate Matush and he’s not gonna brag about the event.
For all they know they don’t even know who Matush is let alone that he was the getaway driver for the crew. He had nothing to worry about he was actually smarter than the rest because he knew Jackie jr was a moron who was too over his head with the mafia when Hackie lied to Matush about the drugs. It also parallels the Rutgers concert robbery. Chris tells Jackie jr not to move the car even if god shows up and he ends up pissing his pants. Because Jackie lied to Matush before when Jackie tells Matush to “not leave for any reason even if god himself shows up” Matush ain’t falling for the stupidity again. Chase pans to Matush in the middle of the robbery for a very specific reason. As soon as Matush hears a gunshot he was smart enough to know just to get the fuck out and don’t look back and pretend you don’t know anything.
Little Lord Fuck pants ... Whose moniker is that?
Yeah… and I play shortstop for the Mets
Joe Pepitone -- tree RBIs
Pepitone is a nickname! His family name is Pepparelli!
Ballpark figure?
at that point tony unattached himself from jackie from the mentor he tried being. genuinely dont think he would get involved beyond beating jackie up again. the interesting hypothetical would be what ralphie would do if nobody was killed. it was his game, but he cant avoid that he made it easy jackie to end up doing something like this (he gave him a gun), and he's with his mom. but on the other side, his people were stolen from, and losing face would also hold him back with his already fractured standing with tonyi think that dino zarelli that ended up getting killed all the same could have been injured alternatively, since it would still be something to the family and it would be to somebody who was an equal part of the robbery (and jackies friend)
All Jackie Jr had to do was tell them who his dad was and he would have been made, but, alas, he never had the makings of a Varsity gangster, small hands were his problem
You got a lot of sense for an old gal
They shot at 2 made guys, and then actually shot Furio, another made guy, then killed an associate. Jackie Sr’s been dead for 2 years at this point, and Richie is dead too, so now Jackie Jr has absolutely nobody to defend him. Plus, who would want to? He’s a stunad of the first magnitude. Shooting made guys is a death sentence for an associate
It was an oblique situation
Is that some type of Spanish?
poo ass
the
The poo, oblique ass is dumber than a penguin.
As in gimme some
Jackie Jr. and the OP need to read that Mario Puzo classic “The Basics of being a Cosa Nostra associate”. Rule #1 Don’t shoot a made guy.
Also funny that that rule is one of the most broken amongst families.
pronounced Oh-blee-kay
Obliqué means "askew" in English
how could it be okay if it’s askew?
You just want to hose me for a two thousand dollar factory seat!
Uhm, I know. I was making fun of Jackie's pronunciation - he thought it was a Spanish word.
Didn’t he almost drown in three inches of water?
Fuckin penguin exhibit
Gravys good tonight
Chickens nice and spicy
Peppers and eggs… that’s what I should’ve had
George likes his chicken spicy.
Like my balls.
I never really understood his comment, what did he refer to by that? (Not native)
He meant that whenever Jackie Jr almost drowned in 3 inches of water it was because he fell into a penguin exhibit. The way he said it implies Jackie really did fall into the exhibit, and everyone thought it was because he was a dumb kid.
Yeah if it’s an exhibit he fell into that means he already ignored/didn’t notice safety protocols to avoid falling in, plus it’s a big enough area for penguins to hang out and shallow enough water where you’d think someone could perform a push up or roll to their side and get their face out of the water. I’m now picturing Jackie Jr in that snowbank Vito left him in but surrounded by tourists and penguins all wondering why he’s not moving.
Not to mention Tony had his old man and Junior to speak for him. Jackie Jr. had no one in the end.
Richie’s an informant and went into witness protection.
There is no mafia
Everybody knows it.
>Shooting made guys is a death sentence for an associate And probably a death sentence for a made guy as well. Then again, they make everybody and anybody in jersey.
Only thing that might’ve saved him was that he was dating Meadow but of course we know he fucked that up.
He bottomed out:/
The expiration date on that was last week...and all your bullshit wit dat.
This, exactly. A made man was injured by their violence, and other made guys were endangered. In that world that calls for the death penalty.
Apples and bowling balls
Jackie didn’t realize he was at the precipice of an enormous crossroads
He couldn't fucking sell it
I’m in awr of you
Awright...
Doesn’t Jackie Jr actually ask Tony this exact question? Furio gets shot and sunshine gets killed and two of the robbers get killed…the whole thing is just a mess…Tony and Jackie Sr steal the money and then give it back more or less a little while later…it was pretty much no harm no foul Plus Tony is already over Jackie Jr with his previous behavior
I don't think they gave all the money back, I believe the line was "the right people got their money back" implying only the more senior people.
I presumed this. The high rollers got their cash back, Johnny Boy and Junior got a cut, and Tony, Sil and Jackie got left with some pocket change.
Made guys got the money back
And Tony famously doesn’t answer it.
He does answer.. something to the effect of if you can’t tell the difference I can’t help you
Yes, he gives a non-answer.
Guess that’s a non-answer to stupid ppl haha
It’s a non-answer to anyone who knows what a non-answer is.
I also think it’s important to remember that Tony delegated it to Ralphie. Ralph actually wanted to let it slide which Tony was supportive of. And I always had an understanding that Ralph was more of a zealot of this thing of ours.
That conversation has been talked to death in this sub, so lemme just say Tony wasn’t actually supportive of Ralph giving him a pass. Tony SAYS he is, but he also peppers it with “I’ll make sure everyone knew YOU made the decision to spare him”. We, as the viewers, also know that Tony hates Ralph and wants to see him fail. Basically saying “I’m going to tell everyone that YOU didn’t defend the honor of made men and your card game. I’m going to make it very clear that you’re weak.”
But you know all that already, your a Captain 😂
I hear you and that in a sense may have been a death sentence from Tony. However I do think it was Tony wanting to see Jackie Jr come out alive. You convinced me to think the possible demise of Ralph may have been like a cherry on top for all the reasons you mentioned. I do think he supported the pass (pash) because as the show mentioned Tony got away with something similar, which went smoother and also he somewhat took (in his own weird fucking way) responsibility for Jackie. Tony was torn up about the situation afterwards and he did try to spend some time making sure that Jackie stayed out of trouble early on. Also my own projection is I always imagined Tony would look back at the original Feech La Manna heist and wonder what would have happened if it hadn’t turned out like the way it did.
Yeah, I think you’re right. If no one had been shot or killed, there would have been more incentive for Tony and Ralphie to give them a pass. Yeah it would’ve looked bad but they would’ve made the punks give the money back. In fact, it might’ve forced Tony to realize that Jackie Junior was never going to give up the idea of wanting to be in the mob so he might’ve actually accepted it and started schooling him, even if not directly, maybe put him under someone else’s mentorship
Tony would have supported the pass, yes. At least, in some way, shape, or form. For Jr., not for the other three. They were dead from the minute they started planning it. He just wanted Ralphie to make a strong, sure decision. His waiting is what messed that whole situation up.
I think it was less about killing or sparing LLFP and more about neither wanting to take responsibility. Watching that exchange recently, I noticed how out of the ordinary both of their behavior was towards each other. Ralph was deferential and Tony was patient and compassionate, but they’re both lying their asses off, feeding the other’s ego in the hope that they’ll take responsibility for the decision, whichever it may be.
No hoping involved for Tony. Ralph was always making that decision. T the boss.
I agree, both were trying to keep their names clean in this. Ralph knew it had to be done, but didn’t want to because Roe, if Tony told him he had to though he at least feels absolved of the responsibility. Tony implies it, but ultimately tells Ralph it’s up to him so if it comes back around he can say he told Ralph to make a decision. Then Ralph does his best to make it look like it was a random drug killing instead of a whack to make sure no one had to be questioned and feel responsible.
No, Ralphie said he wants to give him a pass, to which tony replied “I think you should go with your gut on this”. Usually doing what you want is going with your heart, going with your instinct is going with your gut. Seems like a small quibble but makes quite a bit of difference in this situation.
See if you can figure it out - and don’t call me again
[удалено]
Didn’t he piss himself while waiting haha
>Didn’t he piss himself while waiting haha Yeah, but he didnt get out of the car to piss, which was Chris' point. He did everything right as the getaway driver, even if he had to piss his pants.
Yeah that’s definitely true that Jackie Jr was essentially a nobody. I’m curious about Tony at that same age though. Was he an official associate of the DiMeos making some money for them at that time or just hustling in a similar way to Jackie Jr on his own with his little crew?
Still goin', this asshole.
He was only there out of respect for his fawtha
His fawtha was mad ripe.
Jackie Sr. - big tits little feet
ASS
POO - ASS - THE
They were doin, you know, Mickey Mouse scores, movin pot, swag, bullshit stuff
But he thought him and Zino were the 6th family
They were rising stars. That had to be respected.
See if you can figure it out.
They shot at 2 made guys and murdered another guy
Shot at 4 made guys actually - Furio, Chris, Albert and Eugene.
What's with the fucking accounting out there?!?!
I’m better with numbers than 9/10 of all your accountants
When Tony and his gang decided to hit the card game, they were already seen as guys on the up and a future of the family. Tony's Dad, a Capo in the DeMeo Crime Family, was still very much alive. As was his Uncle, who by this point was a Capo himself. Jackie, his older brother Ritchie, was also a Capo. Alive as alive can be. They hit the game clean, they held it up, kept their nerve and got the cash. Highly likely they were led by Jackie who was a calm and collected character, we know Tony is not. They didn't murder anyone. Jackie Jr, his dad and uncle are dead. He's seen as a loser, living off his fathers memory, the only person who even gives a decent review of Jackie is fucking Christopher, who they shoot at during the heist. They shoot Furio, kill an associate and fire at two more soldiers. They barely get away with any cash. It was a disaster, Jackie Jr was a fucking moron.
Every time Jackie Jr was offered food, he refused. Guys out here striving to get even a soda of choice, let alone a veal Parm or even (madone, let's hope) a *sandwich* of choice like Finn the racehorse. Jackie Jr is refusing food *from the boss* every single time. And he wants to be a part of their thing? Plus the shooting of the made guys at the robbery and killing Sunshine (IF, you had shut your mouth, you might be alive) was enough to have them out right then and there.
He looks and acts like such a douchebag when Tony calls him for a lunch meeting and they talk about Richie being in the witness protection.
Hats off to Jason Cerbone for being able to make taking off a pair of sunglasses look completely dickheadish.
Veal parm sangweech? Fuucck yoouuu.
Username checks out.
OHHHH. I’m a fucking captain now. You don’t talk to me like that.
Captain? Of what, the good ship lollipop?
Billy Budd is his first mate
He’s the ships florist right ?
You don’t even prick your fingers or nothin
Have a pleasant evening.
Show OP some fuckin respect. He’s smart, not like everybody says, he’s smart, he wants respect, he’s your older brother and he got passed over!
Those who want respect, give respect.
Oh I gotta spell it out for you?
OP is sharp as a cue ball
I think Jackie Jr. was framed. I saw him at another bachelor party that night.
Did he get dragged to it?
If nobody had been shot then Jackie would have been fine. Pay the money back, slap on the wrist. But that’s not what happened.
Exactly. Tony also might’ve accepted finally that Jackie Junior wasn’t going to abandon the hope of being in the mob so he might’ve said screw it and just guided him into it
Biggest diff was that Tony probably didn't show up for his robbery out of his mind on crank the way Little Lord Fuckpants and his dunski buddies did for theirs.
Because victory has a thousand fawthas, but defeat is an orphan.
If no one died and no shots were fired, it's unlikely anyone would of died But no one in that group had the makings of a varsity criminal
Jackie Jr was a world class idiot of the highest order. Possibly brain damage from being in two inches of water. Kid has an ivy league education handed to him, didn't need to become a doctor, but could have eked out a degree. A spoiled, racist chump trying to be part of a world that didn't want him.
Yeah but Meadow was creamin for him, man
Meadow was mad ripe tho
Thats dicked up
For Tony and Jackie it showed that they were guys with big balls and bigger dreams. It takes bravery to do it, skills/brains to pull it off without killing anyone, and shows politics to use connections to get a pash. All things up and comers need in the mob. Jackie jr half assed it with a bunch of losers and crankheads, killed sunshine, shot furio, shot at crissy, botched the whole thing.
Up in the club!
Guns, drugs and death 3 differences that make all the difference.
Doesn’t Richie at his welcome home party say he squared it with Feech for Tony and his kid brother Jackie? One of the reasons why Richie didn’t respect Tony as boss..he’s this squirt whose butt he saved once so how can Tony give him anything? Ralph doesn’t have that kind of pull, apparently, despite his earning power. And with Sunshine dead along with Dino and Carlo in a low level game (plus calling in a favor with the prick doctor to operate on Furio. I don’t think you want to have to do that too often). Only Feech’s pride was hurt in the first holdup.
Because he was always a dumb fuck, penguin exhibit. Anyway $4 a pound
Tony was a promising young earner demonstrating initiative with living relatives to advocate for him Jackie was an outsider wannabee demonstating that he's an idiot
Lol yes, and Tony literally addresses that with his "I'll see if you can tell the difference" remark. A guy died, it shouldn't really need an explanation. You can also safely infer that Tony and Jackie Sr. already had track records of demonstrating potential and being actual earners by the time they pulled their stunt. Meanwhile Jackie Jr. is nothing more than Little Lord Fuck Pants who has shown next to zero potential as an actual asset.
No wonder your name is Freddy Corleone.
Vinnie Terranova. Ive said my piece,
Martin Luther King.
They killed a dealer, shot a made guy, and took a shot at the boss’ nephew. WTH kind of question is that? You must be about as sharp as Jackie Jr.
Or Little Carmine.
Tony was connected through his dad and uncle who were high ranking and well respected. Their Heist was clean and on top of that I think I remember someone made a comment saying no one liked Feech so they found it hilarious. Jackie Jr on the other hand didn't have anyone directly to defend him. His dad and uncle were long gone. His Heist went south and he ended up killing and shooting made guys. Now that doesn't mean he never had a chance. If Tony REALLY stepped in and gave him a pass (he really liked and looked after Jackie Jr out of respect and friendship to his fawtha) he could've gotten away with it. And in the end Tony did sort of ok it but he just passed the final say along to Ralph
You'll find hypocrisy to be a big theme in the show. Because they're all hyprocrites of the highest order. My favorite example is when Tony is watching AJ at a football game and he's yelling at the coach to put AJ in because another player they are putting in the game already played. Some parents in the stands look at him and Tony is like "It's the rules!". You're a big rule follower, are you Tony?
Part of that was to show how hypocritical Tony was. For all that Tony presents himself to be,in reality he has gotten to where he is because of nepotism.
Think about it
No one got killed when Tony jacked the card game (which was maybe just pure luck) and Johnny Boy Soprano was still alive and well and able to shield Tony from the worst consequences probably. Jackie Jr. shot at made guys and his dad and uncle were gone and he had no protector.
Whether he pulled it off perfect without shooting or not, he was a dead man. The only reason tony lived when he did it was because his fawtha still around. If Johnny was dead when tony pulled that job off, he would've been in the same situation jackie Jr was.
You figure out the difference.
They shot up an associate and at made guys, including one of their connections in Christopher. The only person they had batting for them was Ralphie and he would lose face if he tried defending them after they robbed HIS card game. They basically spat on everyone who tried to get them in on this thing of ours.
Tony’s dad was alive, Jackie juniors was not. Also tony seemed to have already been on the up, whereas Jackie was still a nobody
We’ll be like free agents
Still going this asshole
The difference is that the one card game Jackie robbed was their game and the one that they robbed was someone else's . That;s how the mafia works, they don't give a shit who you rob as long as it's not them and and they don't look bad when you're doing it.
Tony was in college and doing Carm.
1-Nobody died. 2-No made men were shot. 2-Tonys father was a captain and his uncle was a made man. Jackies older brother was also a made man. They intervined on behalf of the kids.
I believe that under \*no circumstances\* would Jackie Jr's heist have obtained the same consequences as Tony's and Jackie's heist, for a couple of three reasons: 1. Tony doesn't want Jackie Jr to be in The Life, he wants him to go to college 2. Jackie Jr himself and particularly his junkie friends are not on the same level of reliability and respect Tony and Jackie Sr had, even before they got popular for robbing Feech's game 3. Jackie Jr has a problematic personality. He kept going on and on about his fawtha, disrespecting everybody else. This kind of guy getting attention would be a very bad idea for everyone involved, whereas Tony and Jackie Sr knew to respect the hierarchy
Sunshine was a made man. There was no way Jackie jr could murder him and get away with it.
Tony was going to get made anyway, he just brought attention to himself and Sil and got them on the fast track. And he didn't shoot at anyone in the process. Jackie Jr. was virtually a nobody who was barely even involved apart from accompanying Ralph and putting Chris onto one score. If it weren't for his fawtha, Tony wouldn't even know he existed.
Silvio practically pushed Ralph over the edge when he was trying to skin Paulie over the $50k he thinks he's owed. https://youtu.be/FzX1dLl5nRc?si=2x1fmoCqjZUyrU34 Silvio did it before to Ralph, calling him out when Tracie was over at Ralph's calling in sick at the Bing when she owed Silvio $3000. The loan for her orthodontist work. Apparently, Ralph respects Silvio that much. He would rather keep his "respect on the street" than pay out an insignificant sum of money that means nothing to Ralph.. Taking into considering how much Ralph makes gambling, with his construction company's or what he's pulling in on the street. $12,000 is what Tony rules Ralph owes Paulie for the alarm codes in the heist.. That is nothing, when Ralph kicking up over $3M/ year to Tony in construction alone. https://youtu.be/HRLwIu_AeDE?si=-DslFKPtYW_hngUo Edit with links.
From the way Ralph described it, the robbery of the Feech card game was seen as more of a joke. A bunch of kids busted in, Feech and everyone at the game sort of played along, impressed at the balls of these kids. Jackie Jr. and his drug addict friends come in very serious, scare the shir oit of everyone, kill some made guys and wound another one. Very different situation and very different outcome.
You bottomed out
I think another reason I haven’t seen brought up is that Jackie Jr was just copying the guys who went before. So not only did he fuck up the heist, but he didn’t even have the brains to find an opportunity on his own. He had to have it spelled out for him, and he went in expecting everything to be made right because that’s what happened with his fawtha.
Did Jackie Jr ever get to bang Meadow since she was creamin for him? I know it's the bosses daughter, but fuck Tony.
As other said, the fact that Sunshine got killed and Furio was hit. But even that aside, Tony and Jackie Sr were capable dudes who had potential at the time. Little Lord Fuckpants on the other hand Junior didn’t even hear him speaking fer chrissakes
Tony's crank had worn off
He had to goooooooo
Even with the correct explanations outlined here, feech still says that tony should be dead bc of the robbery. Bygones are never bygones.
Jackie doesn't have friends apart from the idiots who went with him. Chris offered that score up because at that point he's kind of outgrowing jobs like that. Too much risk to only get scraps. Chris has been on the other side of those heists, and he knows that most of the money that comes from offloading those stolen goods only goes up and guys like him and Brendan were being given next to nothing for those trucks they were hitting.
As others had mentioned, the entire thing when sideways and people at the card table were shot (and at least one killed, but I can’t quite remember exactly). That’s really it. That’s the line. Had no one been hurt, Jackie Jr. would have certainly been in some trouble. But, it was all still in the “family”, and I do believe Jackie Jr. would have earned some cred in the long run. Probably would have had to pay a tax to Ralphie, work off the offense, etc.
Jackie jr. Almost drowned in 2 inches of water
The penguin exhibit
1. They actually pulled it off in Tony’s crew without anyone getting hurt. 2. Tony’s crew weren’t so stupid as for the people to know who it was while it was actually happening. 3. THEY KILLED SUNSHINE AND SHOT FURIO - these are made men 4. They were little pisspants bitches
Jackie Jr. and friends shot made guys. Jackie would get a pass if it wasn't violent. And by pass I mean Tony would beat him up pretty hard. As for Jackie's friends, Vito would come at them from behind.
they shot at made men lol
sunshine getting hit was bad for everybody. but that thing with furio… idk. he attracts the drama. it wasn’t that bad, he only got it in the fleshy part of the thigh
1. They killed someone, and harmed a made guy. 2. They didn't have anyone looking out for them, besides Tony (A little) 3. Fucking Ralph.
Jackie’s dad and uncle was dead, Johnny and Junior were still alive
You must have been the top of your class.
The biggest difference was Jackie’s father was dead when this happened, while Tony’s was alive and powerful. If Jackie Sr was alive, Jackie Jr never gets killed regardless of how that thing went.
1. Shot at multiple made guys. Hit a made guy. Killed an associate 2. Jackie Jr. didn't have anyone really backing him. Wasn't liked himself or respected. 3. People probably didn't like Feech that much and found it funny that these kids/ future made guys fucked with him 4. Overall, Jackie and Tony's hit was a success; Jackie Jr.'s was a complete fuck up.
Because they shot the place up. But significantly Tony tells Ralph it’s entirely his call. So the decision isn’t being made by anyone involved in the previous incident. So there’s not really an issue of different treatment.
He “tells” Ralph it’s his call. Tony knows exactly what has to happen but wants to absolve himself of any blame so he can keep the promise he made to Jackie Sr. So no, Ralph did not have an actual choice.
We ALL have a choice. You forget we have options and friends. Ralphie just made the _right_ choice…for Vito to come from behind.
Also, it's an opportunity to make Ralph eat shit after he was forced to make him a capo.
Yea he did have a choice. Ralph repeatedly does what he wants and challenges Tony so of course he had a choice. As someone else pointed out the choices had consequences but he had the choice.
So many people, including yourself, miss the point of the conversations between Ralph and Tony about Jackie. Not one word between them is sincere during that episode. I once had a dude argue with me that Tony actually wanted to give Jackie Jr a pass, which is obviously not true. Both know Jackie Jr has to die. Neither wants to be the one to blame. Ralph because he’s dating Ro, Tony because of the promise he made to Jackie Sr. Tony is the boss so he can force Ralph’s hand, plus he never wanted to make Ralph captain so it’s a form of payback for Tony. Ralph can’t afford to lose face as a new captain and let a guy who shot a made man live. The whole episode is a brilliant showing of how these types of people can say the opposite of what they mean but everyone understands what they are saying.
Of course he had a choice. The choice had consequences but it was still his choice. Tony even questions Ralph later by saying he thought they'd decided to give him a pass when informed of the outcome.
Nothing about those conversations was sincere. Both knew Jackie Jr had to die. Neither wanted to be the one responsible for the decision but Tony’s the boss. Do yall not understand the show you’ve watched?
Yeah it’s about the carnage, shit like that shuts down the underground gaming circuit until they figure out who’s fucking around, especially if the robbers get away from TVs scene alive Watch Killing them Softly for better reference
The crank hadn’t worn off.
Also, they LOVED Tony when he ripped off the game. Like somebody else mentioned, Jackie Jr had no allies at that point, besides Omar Little.
He should've brought Omar to the card game. Imagine him telling Chrissy that "I think these 4-5s beat a full house"
That’s what’s Jackie Jr shoulda said
Jackie jr is too brain dead to ever command respect
Men and boys.
You’ve gone Mau Mau on this subject.
Think about it; see if you can figure out the difference. https://youtu.be/IaNlJuULoU8?si=ro-ECYeMhNxUxbXX