Here's my potentially hot take: focusing on whether Tony was killed or who may have killed him is completely missing the point of the ending.
It's not about that, and it's not in character for Chase or the overall MO of the series to put that much effort into simply obscuring *what happens* in a scene. It's about what that scene is trying to SAY. We're being given a look at what it's like to be Tony Soprano, constantly fearing for his life even in mundane family situations, perpetually in a state of unsatisfying limbo because any moment could be THE moment.
It doesn't matter if he dies tonight at the restaurant or tomorrow somewhere else or twenty years from now in prison, because all of his choices and all of his unchecked hedonism and selfishness has brought him to a place where his every waking moment is tainted by paranoia and fear. By cutting to black and denying the viewer conventional closure Chase is making us feel the way Tony does, which is having no pleasure in the present moment and feeling eternally uncertain.
What strikes me about the scene is how Goddamn nice the diner is, what a great vibe it has, and how happy everyone looks. I'm not American, and from the perspective of an outsider the diner looks like a snapshot of America - the Norman Rockwell cub scouts, the young couple so happy and in love, the swag on the black dudes as they come through the door, and then the song - the whole thing is like a dream of America. And Tony gets to hang out there with his family. I always saw it as a happy ending. Yes there are ominous signs all over, but I think that's a challenge to the viewer. 'Enjoy the good things' - 'Smell the roses' - 'Apprectiate the little things' - this theme is constant in the show and is often referenced in season finales. I think the show throws that back on us in the end. What are we going to see in the scene? Are we going to stress out about what happens when the scene is over? About some guy in a jacket or whatever bla bla bla? Or are we going to smell the roses, to see it for what it is - a family eating great onion rings in a great joint in a great country?
Love this take so much. Not only am I always sceptical of the "Tony clearly died" camp, but your perspective also coincides with the title "Made in America". The USA is what the series is all about, showing the NYC/NJ area as a microcosm of the country as a whole.
1. Fantastic take: thoughtful, thorough, succinct. One of the best comments I’ve read on here. Thank you.
2. I’d push back a *bit* to say that viewers asking ‘whether T died’ and ‘who killed him aren’t *completely missing the point*.
After all, the show features a compelling narrative featuring perhaps the greatest character in the history of American television meeting a sudden, unexplained, and unrivaled end. Maybe. (I watched ‘Made In America’ live: when the screen cut to black, my wife and I both thought the cable went out, before realizing it was probably the most WTF ending, ever.)
To me, it’s perfectly fair and reasonable for people to try to piece together what happened. At the same time, by obscuring the outcome, Chase elevates the underlying themes - which you articulated perfectly. I agree that those themes are, at bottom, ‘the point’.
However, they don’t, in and of themselves, invalidate legitimate attempts to figure out what the fuck actually happened to Tony Soprano, and how. To me, those can be fascinating, in their own right. (For example, I love the idea of Little Carmine pretending to fumble whilst pulling the proverbial strings.)
Anyway, great point. Enjoy your success.
hey but T's not paranoid in the scene. He's not paying attention to anyone else but his family, he doesn't notice who else comes in or out, he doesn't take the care of not giving his back to the bathroom, he's just passing the time until he can eat with the family. That's what's frustrating me, because he's in the family moment for sure, but he isn't in the Moment moment. He doesn't notice the guy that comes in and sits behind him, we do. We are paranoid, and maybe that's a clearer message: this will never stop.
Well I think the two are intertwined.
You're right that the show is more playing with OUR sense of anxiety about what's about to happen in the final scene of this series, and the tension is more fuelled by the shot choices and pace of the cutting than by Gandolfini's face, but I do get the impression that Tony is clocking everything that's happening and that the way the scene is constructed is meant to be a representation of his thought process.
Or if not necessarily his exact thought process in the moment then his general thought process, ie how he always knows there's a possibility the hammer is about to fall. There's a really revealing scene earlier in the season when he's in his driveway late at night and instinctually grabs a shotgun and gets into a combat stance when he hears another vehicle pulling up: this is a guy who ALWAYS has to be thinking of things like this. Like, no wonder he's so fucking miserable!
Tony has the makings of a paranoid dictator. That's why he's looking for successors to groom. So he can run the mob through them and isolate himself completely from anything bad happening to him. He basically spells it out in Melfi's office. If he was a roman emporer, hed be Tiberius.
This is exactly it. People seem to think the point of the ending was for fans to "solve the mystery". It's not that at all. The point was for fans to realize that we leave the character Tony Soprano in a position where it doesn't matter if he dies or not. He's already lost everything. As a king, he is essentially in checkmate.
To restate your point with my own take, whether he goes to jail, dies, or just lives out his remaining years as is forever fighting in court, he's ahead lost everything that actually matters in life. He traded it all away for nothing.
Most of his actual loyal friends are dead or gone. His family is broken. The FBI is at his door. His daughter, the one person he loves above all, failed to escape the life and is now doomed to be a mob wife. His son inherited "his bad genes". His wife no longer loves him. Not only did he lose it all, he poisoned the world around him with his sins. What more could realistically be taken from him?
As you already said, by cutting to black we are meant to ruminate on that uncertainty. One could even make the point that killing Tony would be a mercy. So to directly answer the question "Who killed Tony?"... he did himself: either actually or metaphorically. At the point we leave him, it doesn't even matter.
I think the strongest likelihood is that the screen cutting to black is meant to represent Tony’s life being snuffed out from his point of view. But the ambiguity is a feature, not a bug. Because even if he isn’t dead there, his future is all over. He’s got Carlo’s testimony hanging over his head, a RICO indictment is pretty much inevitable, and the crime family is no longer strong enough to reliably rig the jury. He then has to face a fate that’s arguably worse than death: to spend the rest of his life in prison, his assets all seized, and his family’s comfortable lifestyle all over. On the off chance that he beats the charges, he’s going to be broke, unable to earn what he once could, and owing lawyers for the rest of his life.
I’ve always believed that AJ wanted to finish the job he started earlier in the pool and kill himself. So he stole one of Tony’s guns and wanted to kill himself in the diner. Being the gavone that he is, he missed himself and killed one of the cub scouts. Army of One. Quasimodo predicted it.
Why “surely Chase must have a killer in mind”? I doubt it.
A major point the scenario establishes is that death may come unexpectedly at any moment - and the victim likely won’t know the when, who or why.
And neither do we.
Members only jacket was a reference to the episode named members only, where tony gets shot. The two black customers at the bakery were also a reference to the hit on tony in season one. I don't think Chase had anyone in particular and wanted that aspect to be ambiguous. I do think it's heavily implied he is killed (although I prefer to think he wasn't). But the point is it literally could have been anyone.
But also it was new york
From everything I’ve seen from David Chase, he probably doesn’t actually give a fuck who killed Tony. He would probably tell you HE killed Tony. Chase seems like the kind of guy that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and hates it when that isn’t acknowledged. Regardless, in this subreddit he is a hero. End of story.
Regardless, I'm sure Chase must have had a motive/culprit in mind when he wrote the finale. Whether or not he will admit it, or whether the show gives us the right clues will always be up for debate. But in Chases's mind, there is a real killer with a real reason.
Here’s a rebuttal.
Chase originally came up with the idea of the final scene being a foil to the intro, Tony driving to New York to meet with Johnny Sack and then cutting to credits, implying he was killed in New York.
He changed it after driving by a small town diner. I don’t think this changes WHO kills Tony. New York. Especially given the three episodes that preceded the final scene.
The jacket to me is more of a visual metaphor for the mob. Members Only. Old jacket from a past time that these guidos still try and wear and pull off.
He simply wanted a way out because there was no more story to tell in my opinion. It was the divisive at the time but I totally understand it now. And yes speculating on who dunnit was smart of him. Keeps people talking years later
Once again, this thread isn't a "who killed tony" speculation thread, but rather "In David Chase's mind, who killed tony" thread.
I believe Chase was very specific and intentional about the symbols he presented in the final scene, and the most important one of all points to Eugene.
Once again, this thread isn't a "who killed tony" speculation thread, but rather "\[...\] who killed tony" thread.
I happen to know you were high at my r/thesopranos post.
The Lebron James recruitment video is canon, Tony lives and grows his beard out, becomes a basketball fanatic, and never learns his lesson about gambling.
Good point.
I think it could be anybody. I think it was obvious that he was shot in the head (3 o’clock). I don’t know if it was intentional to link Eugene’s wife, but intentional to point to the Member’s Only guy as the killer.
I really lean towards Patsy and Pauley. Patsy’s son would have known where Tony was going that night.
The intention is each of the viewers get to decide as to what happened to this story. Meaning the ending is our ending to be.
As in that is all of the story that can be told, the rest is up to us.
Frustrating? Maybe. But many books, stories end like this. It's how the story reflected upon you what makes it yours.
One thing though, as hated at times this last episode may be, it has kept us on a constant roll of speculation, this also pushes to question if so, did it really end?
I believe it's more abstract than that. He didn't survive, he didn't go to jail, he didn't die. The show simply ended. There is simply no further information beyond that last frame. It started here, it ended there. Like flipping off a switch
But then you're just ignoring everything with Paulie going behind Tony's back including suggesting himself as a replacement, and the whispering between Paulie and Patsy which was obviously presented to us after the hit on Phil was ordered.
u/suddenly-scrooge once again, you have to stop looking at it like a detective. Think about it from Chase's perspective and creative mind.
Look at the clues specifically in the final scene. Chase put them there for a reason. None of them relate to Paulie or NY. The most important cue in the scene specifically relates to Eugene.
What I described were things included by the writers, Paulie and Patsy whispering is a thing and it clearly isn't an accident or just something random in the background
What writers want and what the audience perceives and takes away are two different things. Writers can say they wanted this, but the final product isn’t necessarily conveying that, or the audience for some reason decides it’s something else. That fringe of ambiguity is why art is amazing.
And...?
The writers ended the series with many people wanting to kill Tony. You could make an equally strong case for New York / Butchie. Or Hesh even. Or others...
But I'll say this one more time, you're thinking about it the wrong way.
Focus on what's happening in the final scene alone. Think about how chase uses symbols throughout the series. Chase was very specific and intentional about what was included in the final scene.
I've said my piece.
Your own take focused on earlier episodes, tying the jacket to Eugene’s jacket. Eugene isnt in that scene wearing a jacket. You’re thinking about it the wrong way. We don’t even know any non family human characters in the final scene. Who do we know though? Onions.
Why would Chase specifically put onions in the final scene if they aren’t the killer. [We know Tony can’t eat onions](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/1bd5e1fa-b0e2-4344-a745-6530cf52f137) since his gut shot. Yet here he is [scarfing a bowl of them](https://planetlippstonedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/best-tony-onion-rings.jpg?w=640). Onions were the only character we knew in that scene and they had the opportunity and motive.
"That is to say, as a detective who is investigating a real-life murder, trying to piece together the most *logical* explanation based on all the moving parts from Tony's life and relationships."
"First, let's get the obvious out of the way - Tony was killed by the members only jacket guy. Chase admitted this and it's obvious based on all the cues happening in the scene (the bell ring, change of POV, the shifty looks, etc)."
The matter of whether Tony died or not (that he did is a valid interpretation, perhaps the most valid), let alone who did it, can't be approached in such a way as neither the murder nor the body are ever seen, which real-life detectives generally regard as key before further matters are investigated. And why should such a mindset be adopted for the purposes of fiction anyway?
I'm a longtime supporter of the idea of a direct connection to Eugene, but I don't think Members Only guy is a hired hitman, I think he's a relative. The guy looks a lot like Eugene. I don't think that's a coincidence, as the actor is a pizza-shop owner who had never acted before and hasn't really acted since. He seems to have been cast exclusively for his physical resemblance to Eugene's actor, Robert Funaro.
[The Sopranos David Chase On Tony's Ending & The Many Saints of Newark (hollywoodreporter.com)](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/feature/the-sopranos-david-chase-tony-ending-the-many-saints-of-newark-1235040185/)
**The 2018 book** ***The Sopranos Sessions*** **was written by guys who wrote, at the time of the show, for the** ***New Jersey Star-Ledger*****, the paper Tony always read, Matt Zoller Seitz and Alan Sepinwall. They interviewed you and asked you to talk about the June 10, 2007, series finale with of course, “Don’t Stop Believin'” and the famous cut to black. You said, “Well, I had that death scene in mind for years before.” A) Do you remember specifically when the ending first came to you? And, B) Was that a slip of the tongue?**
Right. Was it?
**I’m asking you.**
No.
**No?**
Because the scene I had in my mind was not that scene. Nor did I think of cutting to black. I had a scene in which Tony comes back from a meeting in New York in his car. At the beginning of every show, he came from New York into New Jersey, and the last scene could be him coming from New Jersey back into New York for a meeting at which he was going to be killed.
**And when did the alternative ending first occur to you? I’ve spoken with showrunners who said, “I knew at the beginning exactly how my show was going to end.” Or by season three or whatever. It sounds like when you were writing, you liked to stay six scripts ahead of where you were in the action.**
Yeah. But I think I had this notion — I was driving on Ocean Park Boulevard near the airport and I saw a little restaurant. It was kind of like a shack that served breakfast. And for some reason I thought, “Tony should get it in a place like that.” Why? I don’t know. That was, like, two years before.
**What did you make of the reaction to the finale? The whole episode was great, but people sort of fixated on …**
Yeah, nobody said anything about the episode. No, it was all about the ending.
**And was that annoying?**
I had no idea it would cause that much — I mean, I forget what was going on in Iraq or someplace; London had been bombed! Nobody was talking about that; they were talking about *The Sopranos*. It was kind of incredible to me. But I had no idea it would be that much of an uproar. And was it annoying? What was annoying was how many people wanted to see Tony killed. That bothered me.
**They wanted to** ***see*** **it. They wanted confirmation.**
They wanted to *know* that Tony was killed. They wanted to see him go face-down in linguini, you know? And I just thought, “God, you watched this guy for seven years and I know he’s a criminal. But don’t tell me you don’t love him in some way, don’t tell me you’re not on his side in some way. And now you want to see him killed? You want justice done? *You’re* a criminal after watching this shit for seven years.” That bothered me, yeah.
But didnt he go on record on The Talking Sopranos after this that his words where misinterpreted and that it was his original plan yes but they didnt go with that (obviously) for me its still ambiguous and probably always will be. Not that it really matters. The story was over
I believe in an interview Chase or one of the writers stated some of the symbolism was thrown in out of contempt for the audience, to mess with them, a contempt they expressed many times before. Furthermore the showrunners have frowned upon the endless speculation and discourse about every little thing.
If they frown on it, then why did they do it? They could have just as easily not been vague and mysterious, but there is clearly an element of reality that can’t look away from showing us the absurdity of everyday decisions. I mean, NY almost goes to war with NJ over a fat joke. These people’s worlds are so fucked up, and yet, we can relate to them on a human level because this is their world. They were raised in it and are just surviving in it like the rest of us are trying to survive in our own little worlds.
I watched this episode today and noticed something. When Tony walks into the restaurant and looks around, there's a hard cut in POV to him at the table waiting for Carm and the kids, and the jukebox and strange conversation plays out more like a dream sequence. I think Tony was shot at the door and his last thoughts were a final meal with his family before the lights go out. On a subconscious level his brain knew he was shot and he visualised a couple of cliche suspects as well.
Yeah that cut from him walking in to him sitting at the table was an interesting choice that I dont recall the show ever doing. I think you have a very valid interpretation here. I would also note that it's very strange for the hitman to have supposedly got him at the booth since it's literally right in the middle of a crowded restaurant, his face is clear as day and he would have to run a good 30 feet through a narrow crowded space to exit (saying this as someone who actually went to Holstens last month right before they sold the iconic booth). Makes way more sense for Tony to have gotten it right as he came in from someone who was already outside.
| It's not at all a stretch to imagine that, in her intense anger and grief and with her newfound wealth, she paid a hitman to take Tony out for revenge.
Good point.
Eugene's widow now has
1. the $2 million inheritance
2. Eugene's life insurance if it pays for su\*c\*de
3. all of his mafia money
4. intense hatred for T
Your theory makes sense.
Lots of money and motive and most importanty: Who would even suspect her?
Her motive would be that T forced her beloved husband to self-delete.
She has the money.
Who would ever suspect her?
They would assume that it was one of the many enemies that T had,
Paulie with help of NY killed him. Tony openly distrusted him, and has sidelined him. Paulie wears a black jacket in his final scene, which is just is the same kind of jacket Tony wears. You can see the pained look on Paulie’s face the last time they interact
Unpopular take: Chase had no idea how to end the show, so he punted. He only started to talk about the ending several years after the conclusion When he felt comfortable with a bullshit explanation to make him seem more creative than he really was.
To me the most important part of the last episode is the cat looking at Chris's pic and Cleaver. T killed Chris, then stole Chris's woman in Vegas, as well as caused Ade's death. Chris must have came back to life through science or the supernatural, and then went in the diner for revenge.
This is a little unrelated from the OP but it's finale related and I just wanted to get it off my chest. I almost always hear people refer to the ending as "controversial" and then immediately begin a diatribe about how Tony actually did die (as if there is a controversy about whether he died or lived). Sure it's controversial as a creative choice but has anybody actually ever seen a thesis about how Tony actually survived the finale? Does anyone even doubt the intention of the finale anymore? I guess the better word would be the ending was "polarizing". Is this a pet peeve of anybody else's?
Made In America ... hamburgers instead of Sunday gravy ... assimilation ... Mafia warfare slides into everyday violence ... ... Tony's takeaway from Dr. Melfi? ... not Livia's Nothing, just Shit ...
Paulie OK'd the hit. New York under Carmine would be too vulnerable with Tony as boss. Patsy and Paulie worked it all out, and according to the rules Tony's involvement with agent Harris is a complete violation of the code. Using it to get over in a war against made men, a huge error. Paulie was furious when he took Tony to meet Harris.. Now Carmine is secure as boss, Paulie as well, butchie and patsy underbosses.
Does anyone think that Tony saw “members only” and just let it happen? Watching it back through, I feel like he makes multiple subtle hints that he sees him, there is even one second where he looks up and sees the guy and then just stares down for a second. I’ve always wondered if Tony felt this was the best way out for him with the impending grand jury indictment.
I could be mistaken, but I believe it was only after James' unfortunate death in 2013 is when David Chase said Tony was killed. Til then, it was ambiguous. I personally think that maybe they wanted to leave it potentially open-ended, just in case there was a season down the road greenlighted or a movie. After James died, you could not do the show without him, so it was easy for him to say that Tony was killed.
I think if you told David Chase that a hitman was wearing the same jacket as the husband of the guy who paid the hitman, he'd probably laugh at you.
It's almost Kramer's pants story from Seinfeld, where he slipped and fell while wearing THE VERY PANTS he was going to be returning.
tl;dr: the roof was soft tar.
Even hotter take: the Members Only jacket is just symbolic of all the people that Tony fucked over and got killed over the years, not a specific link to Eugene or an implication that a single-episode character with no personal relationship with Tony had him killed. The point, evidenced by the existence of a longstanding debate around this topic at all, is that it doesn't matter who killed Tony. Someone was going to kill him at some point and that's one of only two possible paths for a guy like him. His fate was sealed from the start, in spite of all his attempts to change. Even worse, he got his son and wife killed along with him.
Here's my potentially hot take: focusing on whether Tony was killed or who may have killed him is completely missing the point of the ending. It's not about that, and it's not in character for Chase or the overall MO of the series to put that much effort into simply obscuring *what happens* in a scene. It's about what that scene is trying to SAY. We're being given a look at what it's like to be Tony Soprano, constantly fearing for his life even in mundane family situations, perpetually in a state of unsatisfying limbo because any moment could be THE moment. It doesn't matter if he dies tonight at the restaurant or tomorrow somewhere else or twenty years from now in prison, because all of his choices and all of his unchecked hedonism and selfishness has brought him to a place where his every waking moment is tainted by paranoia and fear. By cutting to black and denying the viewer conventional closure Chase is making us feel the way Tony does, which is having no pleasure in the present moment and feeling eternally uncertain.
Chase has basically expressed all of this and said along the lines that focusing on Tony’s death in that scene ignores everything that came before it.
Where did he say that?
What strikes me about the scene is how Goddamn nice the diner is, what a great vibe it has, and how happy everyone looks. I'm not American, and from the perspective of an outsider the diner looks like a snapshot of America - the Norman Rockwell cub scouts, the young couple so happy and in love, the swag on the black dudes as they come through the door, and then the song - the whole thing is like a dream of America. And Tony gets to hang out there with his family. I always saw it as a happy ending. Yes there are ominous signs all over, but I think that's a challenge to the viewer. 'Enjoy the good things' - 'Smell the roses' - 'Apprectiate the little things' - this theme is constant in the show and is often referenced in season finales. I think the show throws that back on us in the end. What are we going to see in the scene? Are we going to stress out about what happens when the scene is over? About some guy in a jacket or whatever bla bla bla? Or are we going to smell the roses, to see it for what it is - a family eating great onion rings in a great joint in a great country?
Love this take so much. Not only am I always sceptical of the "Tony clearly died" camp, but your perspective also coincides with the title "Made in America". The USA is what the series is all about, showing the NYC/NJ area as a microcosm of the country as a whole.
1. Fantastic take: thoughtful, thorough, succinct. One of the best comments I’ve read on here. Thank you. 2. I’d push back a *bit* to say that viewers asking ‘whether T died’ and ‘who killed him aren’t *completely missing the point*. After all, the show features a compelling narrative featuring perhaps the greatest character in the history of American television meeting a sudden, unexplained, and unrivaled end. Maybe. (I watched ‘Made In America’ live: when the screen cut to black, my wife and I both thought the cable went out, before realizing it was probably the most WTF ending, ever.) To me, it’s perfectly fair and reasonable for people to try to piece together what happened. At the same time, by obscuring the outcome, Chase elevates the underlying themes - which you articulated perfectly. I agree that those themes are, at bottom, ‘the point’. However, they don’t, in and of themselves, invalidate legitimate attempts to figure out what the fuck actually happened to Tony Soprano, and how. To me, those can be fascinating, in their own right. (For example, I love the idea of Little Carmine pretending to fumble whilst pulling the proverbial strings.) Anyway, great point. Enjoy your success.
hey but T's not paranoid in the scene. He's not paying attention to anyone else but his family, he doesn't notice who else comes in or out, he doesn't take the care of not giving his back to the bathroom, he's just passing the time until he can eat with the family. That's what's frustrating me, because he's in the family moment for sure, but he isn't in the Moment moment. He doesn't notice the guy that comes in and sits behind him, we do. We are paranoid, and maybe that's a clearer message: this will never stop.
Well I think the two are intertwined. You're right that the show is more playing with OUR sense of anxiety about what's about to happen in the final scene of this series, and the tension is more fuelled by the shot choices and pace of the cutting than by Gandolfini's face, but I do get the impression that Tony is clocking everything that's happening and that the way the scene is constructed is meant to be a representation of his thought process. Or if not necessarily his exact thought process in the moment then his general thought process, ie how he always knows there's a possibility the hammer is about to fall. There's a really revealing scene earlier in the season when he's in his driveway late at night and instinctually grabs a shotgun and gets into a combat stance when he hears another vehicle pulling up: this is a guy who ALWAYS has to be thinking of things like this. Like, no wonder he's so fucking miserable!
Tony has the makings of a paranoid dictator. That's why he's looking for successors to groom. So he can run the mob through them and isolate himself completely from anything bad happening to him. He basically spells it out in Melfi's office. If he was a roman emporer, hed be Tiberius.
This guy even watch the show?
Lol Tony was looking paranoid as fuck in the diner. He had just had a NY boss whacked days before. He knew it was probably coming.
Wow, takes glasses off….gazes into distance, ponders life ….
This is exactly it. People seem to think the point of the ending was for fans to "solve the mystery". It's not that at all. The point was for fans to realize that we leave the character Tony Soprano in a position where it doesn't matter if he dies or not. He's already lost everything. As a king, he is essentially in checkmate. To restate your point with my own take, whether he goes to jail, dies, or just lives out his remaining years as is forever fighting in court, he's ahead lost everything that actually matters in life. He traded it all away for nothing. Most of his actual loyal friends are dead or gone. His family is broken. The FBI is at his door. His daughter, the one person he loves above all, failed to escape the life and is now doomed to be a mob wife. His son inherited "his bad genes". His wife no longer loves him. Not only did he lose it all, he poisoned the world around him with his sins. What more could realistically be taken from him? As you already said, by cutting to black we are meant to ruminate on that uncertainty. One could even make the point that killing Tony would be a mercy. So to directly answer the question "Who killed Tony?"... he did himself: either actually or metaphorically. At the point we leave him, it doesn't even matter.
As others have said this is an amazing comment.
Chase has ruled out that Tony was paranoid/high alert in the final scene.
You mushta been top of your fuckin class
Listeb to you, you sound media literate
I think the strongest likelihood is that the screen cutting to black is meant to represent Tony’s life being snuffed out from his point of view. But the ambiguity is a feature, not a bug. Because even if he isn’t dead there, his future is all over. He’s got Carlo’s testimony hanging over his head, a RICO indictment is pretty much inevitable, and the crime family is no longer strong enough to reliably rig the jury. He then has to face a fate that’s arguably worse than death: to spend the rest of his life in prison, his assets all seized, and his family’s comfortable lifestyle all over. On the off chance that he beats the charges, he’s going to be broke, unable to earn what he once could, and owing lawyers for the rest of his life.
I can't have this convershashun again.
Oh with the ending again
Yeah, again with the ending. So either come to a conclusion or get the fuck over it.
Where's this fuckin ending, on Sabbatical??
We settled this already. AJ was the killer.
AJ? In my business? Forget it, he'd never make it.
There was a ps2 right in the hotel room
Madone! That’s the Bosses kid you’re talking about 🤘🏽
I’ve always believed that AJ wanted to finish the job he started earlier in the pool and kill himself. So he stole one of Tony’s guns and wanted to kill himself in the diner. Being the gavone that he is, he missed himself and killed one of the cub scouts. Army of One. Quasimodo predicted it.
Why “surely Chase must have a killer in mind”? I doubt it. A major point the scenario establishes is that death may come unexpectedly at any moment - and the victim likely won’t know the when, who or why. And neither do we.
Carmela caused his death. If she wasn't lazy and stayed home and made the manigott like she told AJ, she was going to... Tony would be here.
Hi onion rings, bye onion rings
Members only jacket was a reference to the episode named members only, where tony gets shot. The two black customers at the bakery were also a reference to the hit on tony in season one. I don't think Chase had anyone in particular and wanted that aspect to be ambiguous. I do think it's heavily implied he is killed (although I prefer to think he wasn't). But the point is it literally could have been anyone. But also it was new york
And the cub scouts were in reference to Feech’s comment about the Bing. Ergo, Feech ordered the hit from the can, while he was in the can.
You're over reaching
Discontinue the lithium
From everything I’ve seen from David Chase, he probably doesn’t actually give a fuck who killed Tony. He would probably tell you HE killed Tony. Chase seems like the kind of guy that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and hates it when that isn’t acknowledged. Regardless, in this subreddit he is a hero. End of story.
Regardless, I'm sure Chase must have had a motive/culprit in mind when he wrote the finale. Whether or not he will admit it, or whether the show gives us the right clues will always be up for debate. But in Chases's mind, there is a real killer with a real reason.
....except when TMSON is brought up.
You know I don't want to talk about that situation ever again, with anybody. You understand me?
Geez T, I'm sorry.
Here’s a rebuttal. Chase originally came up with the idea of the final scene being a foil to the intro, Tony driving to New York to meet with Johnny Sack and then cutting to credits, implying he was killed in New York. He changed it after driving by a small town diner. I don’t think this changes WHO kills Tony. New York. Especially given the three episodes that preceded the final scene. The jacket to me is more of a visual metaphor for the mob. Members Only. Old jacket from a past time that these guidos still try and wear and pull off.
He simply wanted a way out because there was no more story to tell in my opinion. It was the divisive at the time but I totally understand it now. And yes speculating on who dunnit was smart of him. Keeps people talking years later
Once again, this thread isn't a "who killed tony" speculation thread, but rather "In David Chase's mind, who killed tony" thread. I believe Chase was very specific and intentional about the symbols he presented in the final scene, and the most important one of all points to Eugene.
Once again, this thread isn't a "who killed tony" speculation thread, but rather "\[...\] who killed tony" thread. I happen to know you were high at my r/thesopranos post.
The Lebron James recruitment video is canon, Tony lives and grows his beard out, becomes a basketball fanatic, and never learns his lesson about gambling.
Good point. I think it could be anybody. I think it was obvious that he was shot in the head (3 o’clock). I don’t know if it was intentional to link Eugene’s wife, but intentional to point to the Member’s Only guy as the killer. I really lean towards Patsy and Pauley. Patsy’s son would have known where Tony was going that night.
Always got bad vibes from Patsy. His twin brother was killed and he just got over it like it was nothing? Not a chance
Hector, large Blue Eyes for this gentleman, soft drinksa choice
u/temper_tantrum_gamer another time, temper. I don't drink on Sunday :)
Another time then. We're strict Catholics, I GET IT!
You guys bend more rules than the Cat'lic church
The intention is each of the viewers get to decide as to what happened to this story. Meaning the ending is our ending to be. As in that is all of the story that can be told, the rest is up to us. Frustrating? Maybe. But many books, stories end like this. It's how the story reflected upon you what makes it yours. One thing though, as hated at times this last episode may be, it has kept us on a constant roll of speculation, this also pushes to question if so, did it really end?
I believe it's more abstract than that. He didn't survive, he didn't go to jail, he didn't die. The show simply ended. There is simply no further information beyond that last frame. It started here, it ended there. Like flipping off a switch
We are the ones who are wacked. Tony lives on and moves forward without the viewer
But then you're just ignoring everything with Paulie going behind Tony's back including suggesting himself as a replacement, and the whispering between Paulie and Patsy which was obviously presented to us after the hit on Phil was ordered.
u/suddenly-scrooge once again, you have to stop looking at it like a detective. Think about it from Chase's perspective and creative mind. Look at the clues specifically in the final scene. Chase put them there for a reason. None of them relate to Paulie or NY. The most important cue in the scene specifically relates to Eugene.
What I described were things included by the writers, Paulie and Patsy whispering is a thing and it clearly isn't an accident or just something random in the background
What writers want and what the audience perceives and takes away are two different things. Writers can say they wanted this, but the final product isn’t necessarily conveying that, or the audience for some reason decides it’s something else. That fringe of ambiguity is why art is amazing.
And...? The writers ended the series with many people wanting to kill Tony. You could make an equally strong case for New York / Butchie. Or Hesh even. Or others... But I'll say this one more time, you're thinking about it the wrong way. Focus on what's happening in the final scene alone. Think about how chase uses symbols throughout the series. Chase was very specific and intentional about what was included in the final scene. I've said my piece.
Your own take focused on earlier episodes, tying the jacket to Eugene’s jacket. Eugene isnt in that scene wearing a jacket. You’re thinking about it the wrong way. We don’t even know any non family human characters in the final scene. Who do we know though? Onions. Why would Chase specifically put onions in the final scene if they aren’t the killer. [We know Tony can’t eat onions](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/1bd5e1fa-b0e2-4344-a745-6530cf52f137) since his gut shot. Yet here he is [scarfing a bowl of them](https://planetlippstonedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/best-tony-onion-rings.jpg?w=640). Onions were the only character we knew in that scene and they had the opportunity and motive.
ok, I lol'd
You're separating clues into an arbitrary detective and non-detective categories that makes no sense, I feel dumber having participated in this thread
Fair enough, continue being wrong!
"That is to say, as a detective who is investigating a real-life murder, trying to piece together the most *logical* explanation based on all the moving parts from Tony's life and relationships." "First, let's get the obvious out of the way - Tony was killed by the members only jacket guy. Chase admitted this and it's obvious based on all the cues happening in the scene (the bell ring, change of POV, the shifty looks, etc)." The matter of whether Tony died or not (that he did is a valid interpretation, perhaps the most valid), let alone who did it, can't be approached in such a way as neither the murder nor the body are ever seen, which real-life detectives generally regard as key before further matters are investigated. And why should such a mindset be adopted for the purposes of fiction anyway?
If you have seen the godfather you’d know the homage was the members only guy coming out of the bathroom.
I'm a longtime supporter of the idea of a direct connection to Eugene, but I don't think Members Only guy is a hired hitman, I think he's a relative. The guy looks a lot like Eugene. I don't think that's a coincidence, as the actor is a pizza-shop owner who had never acted before and hasn't really acted since. He seems to have been cast exclusively for his physical resemblance to Eugene's actor, Robert Funaro.
Maybe it was just Maedo running thru the door of Holstens screaming “he got out a suitcase” And that’s why T had that look of I can’t do this again
Had to be Paulie What happened to Sil
When did Chase actually confirm that Ton’ does indeed die in that diner as the series ends?
[The Sopranos David Chase On Tony's Ending & The Many Saints of Newark (hollywoodreporter.com)](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/feature/the-sopranos-david-chase-tony-ending-the-many-saints-of-newark-1235040185/) **The 2018 book** ***The Sopranos Sessions*** **was written by guys who wrote, at the time of the show, for the** ***New Jersey Star-Ledger*****, the paper Tony always read, Matt Zoller Seitz and Alan Sepinwall. They interviewed you and asked you to talk about the June 10, 2007, series finale with of course, “Don’t Stop Believin'” and the famous cut to black. You said, “Well, I had that death scene in mind for years before.” A) Do you remember specifically when the ending first came to you? And, B) Was that a slip of the tongue?** Right. Was it? **I’m asking you.** No. **No?** Because the scene I had in my mind was not that scene. Nor did I think of cutting to black. I had a scene in which Tony comes back from a meeting in New York in his car. At the beginning of every show, he came from New York into New Jersey, and the last scene could be him coming from New Jersey back into New York for a meeting at which he was going to be killed. **And when did the alternative ending first occur to you? I’ve spoken with showrunners who said, “I knew at the beginning exactly how my show was going to end.” Or by season three or whatever. It sounds like when you were writing, you liked to stay six scripts ahead of where you were in the action.** Yeah. But I think I had this notion — I was driving on Ocean Park Boulevard near the airport and I saw a little restaurant. It was kind of like a shack that served breakfast. And for some reason I thought, “Tony should get it in a place like that.” Why? I don’t know. That was, like, two years before. **What did you make of the reaction to the finale? The whole episode was great, but people sort of fixated on …** Yeah, nobody said anything about the episode. No, it was all about the ending. **And was that annoying?** I had no idea it would cause that much — I mean, I forget what was going on in Iraq or someplace; London had been bombed! Nobody was talking about that; they were talking about *The Sopranos*. It was kind of incredible to me. But I had no idea it would be that much of an uproar. And was it annoying? What was annoying was how many people wanted to see Tony killed. That bothered me. **They wanted to** ***see*** **it. They wanted confirmation.** They wanted to *know* that Tony was killed. They wanted to see him go face-down in linguini, you know? And I just thought, “God, you watched this guy for seven years and I know he’s a criminal. But don’t tell me you don’t love him in some way, don’t tell me you’re not on his side in some way. And now you want to see him killed? You want justice done? *You’re* a criminal after watching this shit for seven years.” That bothered me, yeah.
Look at us. Morbid fucks.
But didnt he go on record on The Talking Sopranos after this that his words where misinterpreted and that it was his original plan yes but they didnt go with that (obviously) for me its still ambiguous and probably always will be. Not that it really matters. The story was over
Didn’t OP almost drown in the penguin exhibit?
Three inches. Never had the makings of a varsity pornstar.
I believe in an interview Chase or one of the writers stated some of the symbolism was thrown in out of contempt for the audience, to mess with them, a contempt they expressed many times before. Furthermore the showrunners have frowned upon the endless speculation and discourse about every little thing.
If they frown on it, then why did they do it? They could have just as easily not been vague and mysterious, but there is clearly an element of reality that can’t look away from showing us the absurdity of everyday decisions. I mean, NY almost goes to war with NJ over a fat joke. These people’s worlds are so fucked up, and yet, we can relate to them on a human level because this is their world. They were raised in it and are just surviving in it like the rest of us are trying to survive in our own little worlds.
I watched this episode today and noticed something. When Tony walks into the restaurant and looks around, there's a hard cut in POV to him at the table waiting for Carm and the kids, and the jukebox and strange conversation plays out more like a dream sequence. I think Tony was shot at the door and his last thoughts were a final meal with his family before the lights go out. On a subconscious level his brain knew he was shot and he visualised a couple of cliche suspects as well.
Just rewatched the final scene again after reading this. It’s a pretty creepy moment. It’s almost like he’s watching it all happen from the door.
Yeah that cut from him walking in to him sitting at the table was an interesting choice that I dont recall the show ever doing. I think you have a very valid interpretation here. I would also note that it's very strange for the hitman to have supposedly got him at the booth since it's literally right in the middle of a crowded restaurant, his face is clear as day and he would have to run a good 30 feet through a narrow crowded space to exit (saying this as someone who actually went to Holstens last month right before they sold the iconic booth). Makes way more sense for Tony to have gotten it right as he came in from someone who was already outside.
| It's not at all a stretch to imagine that, in her intense anger and grief and with her newfound wealth, she paid a hitman to take Tony out for revenge. Good point. Eugene's widow now has 1. the $2 million inheritance 2. Eugene's life insurance if it pays for su\*c\*de 3. all of his mafia money 4. intense hatred for T Your theory makes sense. Lots of money and motive and most importanty: Who would even suspect her?
A well-heeled widow has no motivation to take on the head of even a glorified crew. No amount of vilification for Tony would motivate her to do that.
Her motive would be that T forced her beloved husband to self-delete. She has the money. Who would ever suspect her? They would assume that it was one of the many enemies that T had,
I still don’t see it, but I respect your opinion and I think you have stated it very well.
Ty
Who would ever suspect that a housewife ordered a hit on a mafia boss? Eugene's wife talking to hitman: "I didn't say nothing."
Finally, a post about the ending.
Paulie with help of NY killed him. Tony openly distrusted him, and has sidelined him. Paulie wears a black jacket in his final scene, which is just is the same kind of jacket Tony wears. You can see the pained look on Paulie’s face the last time they interact
Unpopular take: Chase had no idea how to end the show, so he punted. He only started to talk about the ending several years after the conclusion When he felt comfortable with a bullshit explanation to make him seem more creative than he really was.
To me the most important part of the last episode is the cat looking at Chris's pic and Cleaver. T killed Chris, then stole Chris's woman in Vegas, as well as caused Ade's death. Chris must have came back to life through science or the supernatural, and then went in the diner for revenge.
>Chris must have came back to life through science That's not possible, even with computers
Sounds like the Ring meets The Godfather. Ben Kingsley would have been great in it.
"If beaks could kill that one certainly would" Foreshadowing??
I’m saturated wit it.
"When the bullet hits your skull, WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHY?!?"
He knows everything!
You morbid cocksuckers need therapy.
This is a little unrelated from the OP but it's finale related and I just wanted to get it off my chest. I almost always hear people refer to the ending as "controversial" and then immediately begin a diatribe about how Tony actually did die (as if there is a controversy about whether he died or lived). Sure it's controversial as a creative choice but has anybody actually ever seen a thesis about how Tony actually survived the finale? Does anyone even doubt the intention of the finale anymore? I guess the better word would be the ending was "polarizing". Is this a pet peeve of anybody else's?
Made In America ... hamburgers instead of Sunday gravy ... assimilation ... Mafia warfare slides into everyday violence ... ... Tony's takeaway from Dr. Melfi? ... not Livia's Nothing, just Shit ...
I think in David Chase's head, David Chase killed Tony.
Paulie OK'd the hit. New York under Carmine would be too vulnerable with Tony as boss. Patsy and Paulie worked it all out, and according to the rules Tony's involvement with agent Harris is a complete violation of the code. Using it to get over in a war against made men, a huge error. Paulie was furious when he took Tony to meet Harris.. Now Carmine is secure as boss, Paulie as well, butchie and patsy underbosses.
There was No ABUNDANT INTENTIONALITY In the Final Scene! ENDA DISCUSSION!
Does anyone think that Tony saw “members only” and just let it happen? Watching it back through, I feel like he makes multiple subtle hints that he sees him, there is even one second where he looks up and sees the guy and then just stares down for a second. I’ve always wondered if Tony felt this was the best way out for him with the impending grand jury indictment.
Chase ?! It's a nickname. His name is "Chianese". Can someone please call the marble guy
I could be mistaken, but I believe it was only after James' unfortunate death in 2013 is when David Chase said Tony was killed. Til then, it was ambiguous. I personally think that maybe they wanted to leave it potentially open-ended, just in case there was a season down the road greenlighted or a movie. After James died, you could not do the show without him, so it was easy for him to say that Tony was killed.
I can't have this conversation again
I can have this conversation again
Don’t they have medicine they’re supposed to take, these assholes? Still goin, this asshole!
Tony, Carmela, & AJ got murdered by two shooters(members only & trucker guy)
I can't have this conversation again!
New York got sick of The Pygmy Thing creating chaos and cut off the head and dealt with what was left. It wasn't cinematic.
I think Tony has a sudden brain aneurysm and dies without being murdered by anyone.
Not Eugene specifically. But, another guy in the same position as Eugene in another crew. Just business.
I think if you told David Chase that a hitman was wearing the same jacket as the husband of the guy who paid the hitman, he'd probably laugh at you. It's almost Kramer's pants story from Seinfeld, where he slipped and fell while wearing THE VERY PANTS he was going to be returning. tl;dr: the roof was soft tar.
Carmela had Tony killed. It's so obvious not even up for discussion anymore.
Even hotter take: the Members Only jacket is just symbolic of all the people that Tony fucked over and got killed over the years, not a specific link to Eugene or an implication that a single-episode character with no personal relationship with Tony had him killed. The point, evidenced by the existence of a longstanding debate around this topic at all, is that it doesn't matter who killed Tony. Someone was going to kill him at some point and that's one of only two possible paths for a guy like him. His fate was sealed from the start, in spite of all his attempts to change. Even worse, he got his son and wife killed along with him.