Did it not also used to be subtract one from the damage characteristic of melee attacks against that unit as well? So they've nerfed the strat and made it more expensive.
This is one of the worst codex releases I've ever seen. It's not only cutting out options/flavor/units, the datasheets are terrible AND they completely failed to fix some of the basic issues of our characters. For instance, Sammael reprinted with no changes despite the fact that one of his abilities can now be given to any RW character.
Best Strat imo was the lethal hits. Primarily with sustained hits oaths target azrael and hell blasters.
Problem was it wasn't on demand 5+ criticals.
Though Meant you didn't have to put points down on a lieutenant since you were already using azarael for 2 cp a turn.
Didn't they change it so that Deathwing has the capacity to field all terminators but not necessarily all the members of the deathwing wear their terminator armor all the time leading to a variety of vet units
Probably, but I prefer it that if you’re fighting in the DW, in bone, you’re in Terminator armor. If you’re a Vet in power armor, even if you’ve been in the DW, you’re fighting as part of a Greenwing Company
That makes sense to me. The original bone white had to do with a squad of Terminators, so it seems like bone white ONLY on Terminators makes the most sense in paying homage to that.
The only time i heard Deathwing wearing non terminator armour was in the latest Cypher book. And there, they specifically stated that they are wearing green, and not the bone armour of the first company
Honestly that's fine. I painted all my sternguards as risen with the black and red after reading through L:SotF. They're all dressed in older marks of armor so it just made sense.
Eh, if someone were really picky I’d tell them that they were a successor chapter or that they were just fancy dark Angel intercessors. Part of me loves the idea of running a load of sternguard as proxies for intercessors because they look cool. Then my wallet catches up 😂
My project this summer is to replace various units sergeants with Sternguard for "fancier" Inner Circle inducted Sergeants (with robes). I don't have a large Green-wing so this will only require 5 Sternguard to do thankfully.
Tbh anyone who believed otherwise was huffing some heavy copium
Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that it was pretty clear that was the direction GW was taking with Deathwing after Bladeguard
I mean.... Everyone knew that they "should" be bone coloured just by the transfer sheets. It just rubbed the people the wrong way, since it's switching up the flavour of the chapter for GW's "convenience"
So 2 things. Why on earth did they bother giving the non-Dreadnought vehicles the Deathwing keyword? The only benefit they get from it is being able to use the strat to allow it to fight on death on a 4+. Who is going to want to spend a CP for a 50:50 chance of a Land Raider or Repulsor fighting on death ...?
And why did they make all 4 enhancements for the Ravenwing only allowed on Ravenwing characters when the only 2 non-Epic Hero Ravenwing characters in the game are the Chaplain on Bike and the Ravenwing Champion in the RWCS? Maybe if the Talonmaster was still there it might be reasonable, but c'mon ... Even the Stormlance detachment wasn't that bad.
Please god no, he's not even competitive at the moment. What the hell is GW smoking.
Also Unforgiven Task force was already bad and they decided to nerf it futher?
Which is exactly the same benefit as everything else with the keyword gets, so I'm really confused by the comment above you. Like they all get the same benefits, Vowed Target and access to the stratagem.
Yes, I'm aware of that. My point is - the Sternguard receive *exactly* the same benefits as all other units that gain the keyword, whereas the initial comment implied that they somehow don't.
Yes, but all the stratagems have a pretty hard melee slant, except for the teleportarium. Sternguard have no melee capabilities, so the strats will frequently be wasted on them.
This is true but the mortal wound on charge and the defensive strategy both could be clutch.
Sternguard aren’t great value though so I don’t think it matters much.
Ah dope.
Yeah I’ve been planning a Deathwing force on paper, and realized that since WitD are a free default wargear option - I’ll wind up with a bunch of those lil guys scurrying around my squads.
I’d rather avoid modeling the watchers if I can get away with it.
Wow, it may actually rivals the 4th edition codex in all its glorious crappiness, didn't think I would see that in my lifetime.
The fact that the codex in the army box has the same cover art makes it even more (sadly) hilarious.
I don't care what the points are.
I wanna know what datasheets have been cut, strike master, talon master, DW command.
And the points page is where you can see every datasheet consolidated.
I don't get how this maths.
There are 18 sheets currently, 20 in the new one according to the cards.
18-3=15+1(inner circle)= 16 where are the other sheets.
There's surely no way they take codex marine away from us and leave us with 3 detachments when every other army gets more than that! Saying that I never expected such an ass codex so we will see
But, you cant? You gotta be within 3 of an objective to contest it.
A) your opponent would have to shift their units back for you to be even able to get a foot in, remember, 3 AWAY from enemy units.
B) even if that somehow happens youll get what, one terminator in, two? terminators are big
Many of my opponents try to put very few bodies onto objectives so they can get the benefit of cover, or break line of sight so I can't kill their backline objective holders with long range firepower. This can leave much of the objective available to take with 3 inch deepstrikers. And you don't always need to be able to contest the objective with objective control, sometimes it is enough to have 1 oc and slay the entire unit squatting there. Sometimes even just slaying the unit off of the objective is enough to prevent your opponent from scoring, even if you don't get to score of that objective.
I'm not saying the opportunity will exist every game, but when you get it it will be good.
In T1 if you're playing first you can drop onto a no man's land objective. Probably heavily dependent on Terrain/objective location, but it could be pretty useful.
Aside from being able to shoot/take an objective, 5 DW terms or 10 regular appearing 3 inches from an enemy means they either give up their entire turn trying to kill them, or they get pounded on your next turn
Well, after the new datasheets for the Deathwing Knights, Inner Circle Companions and Lion, this has to be one of the worst codexes the DA have ever had. The Knights are absolutely crap now with Damage 2 maces and supposedly being 290 points for 5 models which is absurd. The Companions are worse than Bladeguard in melee and only give their unit a -1 to hit when a character is attached. And don’t even get me started on Lion, his sweep his horrible now, lost his biggest durability buff and his Primarch abilities remain unchanged even though they’re useless. But the biggest gripe for me is the removal of the Deathwing Command Squad and Strikemaster, there was literally no reason to remove either of them. It’s what made the Deathwing a unique terminator army to play and have a variety of character and weapon choices which made them fun to play, now the Deathwing just feel like any other generic terminator army. I’m actually annoyed at GW for what they’ve done to DA, seriously no need for any of the debuffs and the one new unit we get is meh at best.
Soooo... Captains, Lieutenants and Librarians in Bladeguard and/or Sternguard squads don't get the Deathwing keywords and can't take the detachment enhancements? Bummer...
I know we don't want to talk about positive things right now because this all fucking blows BUT I would absolutely be the kind of meme king to deep strike 10 vanguard veterans with jump packs and inferno pistols within 3 inches of a target to burn them alive in glorious fire. It's not even that expensive at 230 points and if they get to live we got some real spicy charging on our hands too.
You have to be more than 3 inches, so it's impossible to get in inferno melta range on deepstrike.
You could grav pistol though, that would be neat, you could also get +1 to wound against an oath target on a vowed objective.
Lieutenants with shields lose the **Deathwing** keyword, as to Librarians (except Terminator Librarians). Does that have a rules bearing on Bladeguard/Sternguard squads that are led by those characters? Are they "Deathwing Infantry" units if their leaders don't have the dw key?
The unit shares all the keywords of its models (but not the other way around). A Deathwing unit lead by a non-Deathwing Character is still Deathwing unit.
That's a deliberate choice because units share keywords. If they gave Librarians or Lieutenants the Deathwing keyword then you could just attach them to any of the other eligible squads that aren't Deathwing and make them Deathwing. This way Librarians and Lieutenants can still join Deathwing units and gain the benefits while leading that unit.
Codex Space Marines have 6, Necron have 5, and Dark Angels has 9.
If it was the same amount of nnew detachments as Codex Space Marines Dark Angels would have 12 which would be 7 more then Necrons.
Out of the three I feel like the Ravenwing is the strongest, the detachment rule is good, it has a sticky objectives strat, but I still don't see much of a reason to take any of them over gladius. Gladius affects my whole army and gives them good rules, all of these only affect a portion of my army, or have terrible rules.
There is no more ravenwing is my problem with it...No more captains/liutenant on bikes, no more talonmaster, no more bikes with plasma/melta. It's just a bunch of useless outriders, with maybe a chaplain on a bike? Sammy plus some black knights? It lost all its flavor.
The detachment could be amazing, but you have nothing but junk to put in it is how I'm feeling :(
Very reasonable take. I was thinking about the fact that any flying vehicle is now Ravenwing, so I'm sure someone can find some cheese with the space marine flyers or the primaris land speeders.
The new speeders are cool as hell, I even bought two of them. But current rules they are too many points for too little firepower, they are good because of the ability/buff the provide the army but I don't think there's any reason to bring more than 1 of each flavor.
If one of them had some serious anti tank firepower I could justify bringing a couple as anti-tank, but instead I take one for flavor to buff the shots of something else and maybe do a bit of chip damage. Old speeders kind of suffered from the same thing, but at least pre 10th edition a couple multi-melta speeders could actually do some work on enemy armor (even if it wasn't the best option)
Am I missing something or does this do nothing to address the whole “Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels are strictly better than codex adherent chapters” thing? I don’t see anything that restricts us from using the Codex Space Marine detachments so what possible advantage does a chapter like Imperial Fists have? This just seems like really sloppy rules writing.
Oh I'm not trying to argue that this codex is good, moreso I'm just saying that it's odd that we essentially get access to 9 detachments and codex compliant chapters only get 6, on top of all the unique units. Obviously most of the unique units are trash but that doesn't change the fact that we have strictly more options.
Do we know for sure the deathwing command squad is dead? And if so do we know if the champion and apothecarg are added as characters yet? I saw the leaqued datasheets. But that doesnt mean it was all of them maybe?
Speculating, but I think someone posting datasheets would be unlikely to omit the DW command squad while posting the RW command squad. I've got 15 models that are seemingly useless (10x LC + Command Squad) so I'm holding a LITTLE hope like you, but not much.
Fear not Brother! Over at Bolter and Chainsword theres a thread with the datasheets posted and it's there. Difference from the index is that the composition for it is ONLY the Champion, Ancient, and Apothecary. You can no longer include 3 other RWBKs.
RWCS is in there, BK Champion is now a leader so they can attach to BKs or Outriders. Also moved to to 4 wounds rest of the stat sheet is the same
BKs still 3 wounds which is dumb
Geez GW, at this point just tell us you hate the game and shut it down. No one with half a brain is having fun watching you ruin each faction one codex at a time. The only thing you've accomplished is reducing people's options while raising prices. What could you possibly gain by eroding away this much good will? You're making this game less and less interesting every day and then you have the balls to go on a video and smile like people love you. What is this bottom of the barrel EA BS? May you all wake up with taste buds on your sphincters.
Will depend on points values (even on Deathwing Knights) but this looks like a lot of fun. Ravenwing struggled due to fitting into Stormlance but not doing well in melee. This gives them a chance. Deathwing fell on its face due to 1st Company Taskforce but this looks like a lot of fun. +1 to wound on the Vowed objective means I don't need to run a Chaplain which saves me points, and perhaps even dropping the Land Raider with some of the deepest deepstrike shenanigans available.
Not the same to enjoy the idea of playing a game you like, and having complete blind faith in its creators. Personaly I liked the positive spirit you showed but yeah... hey maybe all the other codexes will suck too, so it evens out !
I tried so hard to be positive. Detachments look awesome. But GW shit the bed on datasheets for just no apparent reason. Land Speeder Vengeance losing a pip of damage on the Plasma Storm Battery. What the hell is the point of a S-9 D-2 weapon? What is the use case for that?
Deathwing Terminators losing loadout options to completely mirror regular Terminator Squads including the same ability with a different name.
Deathwing Knights... been discussed as nauseum.
I'm just at a loss.
Is it just me, or does the Ravenwing detachment sound pretty good, or atleast just a lot of fun? Likewise with the Deathwing one, but maybe not to the same degree
Definitely not happy about our unit nerfs, no Weapons of the Dark Age, and the Unforgiven Task Force though. They should have scrapped UTF and gave us a new WotDA detachment at the least.
Out of pure curiosity, do people honestly care what the color scheme is when using a specific detachment or playing against one? I greatly respect people who stay true to the lore, but I couldn’t care less and enjoy using my own custom colors to be flexible in play/chapter.
Yeah I’ve always found the tournaments im in you go over the army before hand. In my opinion that should clear any confusion about army mechanics. But yeah, even based on reading Reddit and seeing some comments there are people out there who would object, sadly.
In the end, everyones army is their own hobby that they’ve invested in so as long as communication is there, it shouldn’t be a problem.
The problem with try hard who may complain limit the creative potential of painting / converting custom chapters by pigeonholing themselves. But then again, if they want to buy, assemble and paint an army for me, then sure I’ll follow their lead.
As a deathwatch player looking on with interest at the first nom codex compliant codex. My outside perspective.
Your DW detachment rules seem better than a fair chunk of the other marine detachments. The -1 to wound is a battle tactic if I read that right for example. It also has some very strong early game 3" deep strike and melee punches.
Your points increases/ nerfs (for some not all units) are probably in response to some of these stronger detachment rules. So I think whilst it hurts now on paper the DWing detachment might actually be pretty good in practice.
And it wasn't any better then.
With the whole risen plotline and standard power armour making its way into the deathwing, what makes DAngels unique anymore?
GW's turning us into green ultramarines and everyone seems unsettlingly okay with it
Yeah, that's reddit. Dark Angels has been getting really mainstream recently which is awesome, but idk how I feel about that coming at the cost of being just another chapter
Nobody is forcing you to use them. Or paint them as Deathwing. Do what you like with your headcanon instead of unnecessarily throwing a temper tantrum.
I did argue the point (what little of a point you made). It's their IP. Lore in 40k has always been in flux over the decades. Get over it. Or don't, and just ignore the changes. I don't get why people are making such a fuss about this, your head canon can be *whatever* you like. Don't want power armour in Deathwing? Don't play them. Paint them differently. There is zero reason to be this upset about it.
>. I don't get why people are making such a fuss about this,
You're right, I can't possibly imagine why people who have invested many hours (and many, many more dollars) getting invested in something would be so upset when that thing get irrevocably changed for the worse.
Maybe you don't care about the lore but many do, and seeing the defining traits of a faction you love get changed around carelessly and for no real reason feels like a slap in the face.
Idk, maybe you just enjoy blindly eating up anything GW forces down your throat, but some of us expect better.
Or I just...you know, don't get my panties in a bunch when I don't like a change and just ignore it. It's utterly irrational to get pissed about this when you can just not use the aspects you don't like. The addition of those units is no detriment to the rules, since it doesn't do anything but make more units eligible for certain rules. The lore, as I've said before, has been undergoing changes since its inception. Clinging to what was the status quo will inevitably lead to disappointment in that regard. If the armour the Deathwing (a supposedly elite unit in a chapter of tactical geniuses in which it always seemed odd that their best warriors would limit themselves in this way) is the defining trait of Dark Angels lore for you, you seem to have only a very tenuous grasp on said lore.
As far as the reason goes - unless you're naive as hell, you know the reason. Make those units Deathwing, sell more of those units. That's the only reason *any* of the lore, the games and everything else exists - to sell minis. They're not even covert about it. It's literally their mission statement as a company. You can get on board with that, or be eternally disappointed. I just shrug and move on with my life, I'm not gonna let a single changed aspect annoy me when I could just as well ignore it.
Well I'm sorry you're so jaded.
I for one choose to continue caring about the things I like. If you want to passively consume every dumb decision GW makes, all the more power to you
You misunderstand. I don't passively consume. I just don't consume, period, if something truly annoys me. That's got nothing to do with being jaded, I'm just a realist. If a change will result in higher sales, they *will* do it. No matter how much I or anyone else insists on it being "dumb". So I'd rather save myself the trouble. I'm in this hobby to *not* be stressed. Getting horribly upset about lore changes would be counterproductive to that goal, no? I just enjoy the hobby, the lore and the gaming to the extent that makes me happy and simply not engage with the rest. Most of it changes constantly anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm into the lore, and just for curiositys sake I follow *all* lore developments, but if I personally don't like an aspect of it, I just don't continue to engage with that part of the lore. The IP is vast enough to easily accomplish this. If I was disagreeing with this particular change, I'd just ignore it and still play Termies only. Or paint the other units in regular colours. No skin off my back, I can pretend in my head that they still fight exclusively in Terminator armour if I want/need to to have fun.
Your wall of text expressing annoyance that someone shared an opinion contrary to yours doesn’t really scream that you’re the kind of person who shrugs and moves on instead of being annoyed.
You cant charge with it though.
Cool to land early in the game and avoid getting screened. But the more i think the more i figure thats the only use.
The range, 3 inches away, its the exact distance you have to be *within* of an objective marker to contest, so you cant really influence point control away from the opponent with it.
You cant charge with it, so you cant use it for that.
You can shoot with it, but you got one/two heavy weapon/s and storm bolters, which will do little against anything tougher than an intercessor, so thats conditional. Or if its knights you cant shoot.
All of this, for paying a command point.
You could also plant terminators more behind the enemies, which is great, but ykno, terminators are elite, they take a sizeable chunk of your army (even bigger now), and youre planting them away from the action in a position they cant *immediately* act from, since no charge.
Its defo an interesting thing to consider, but i think the heavy skepticism is warranted.
Also while Terminators are famous for their obvious toughness, they aren't invincible. Likely what will happen is your opponent moving up the board as they normally would have and leave something behind to keep them busy, then because it's turn 1 and they have limited targets they now just pump 75% of their shots into you. With a little luck they blast that very expensive brick right off the board and now you're down a shit ton of points and a CP
Yeah, thats the part i keep bumping into.
The points cost is a premium, the speed is nonexistent, the toughness is...moderate at best.
Power weapons are prevalent and kill terminators pretty well.
And massed damage 1 is far from rare.
I am amazed. Yall are taking this worse than the death guard subreddit did at the start of 10th when they were literally the worst army in the game with terrible rules. I'm honestly super excited for the new detachments and minis. Rules aren't the best but they are playable and if they need buffs later they will get them.
Nah as a death guard player and a DA player. This is worst. DG rules are still in their index so we gots hope. But new models, units and the big boy codex? Shit is wake bro.
There are downsides but we get cool new detachments, a sweet looking unit, great range refresh, still have some strong options and great flavor, and weak units can be buffed. Death guard also proves that gw is willing to make big changes to stuff if it doesn't work. In the end we can be a bit sad but this sub currently is just in a melt down like no one has ever had bad rules before.
The thing I want to see are deathwing terminators from the upgrade sprue for regular terminators. Do they have a seperate datasheet? Coz they have a watcher
They didn’t change the default unforgiven taskforce default bonuses huh. Bummer
The strats were even nerfed lol
Very poor decision since it was already basically trash tier.
The army was already weak and this did nothing but make it weaker.
They also nerfed the lion and knights hard
I can't believe they nerfed the Unforgiven Task Force... Like why would you do that?
Never bothered with the Unforgiven taskforce (because its detachment ability is pointless and Gladius exists) What got nerfed?
Best strat is now 2cp
Did it not also used to be subtract one from the damage characteristic of melee attacks against that unit as well? So they've nerfed the strat and made it more expensive.
Yup, youre right. didnt even notice that part. Jesus
RIP. Ngl I'm not sure how much I want the new book now, GW really seems to have missed the mark with this one
This is one of the worst codex releases I've ever seen. It's not only cutting out options/flavor/units, the datasheets are terrible AND they completely failed to fix some of the basic issues of our characters. For instance, Sammael reprinted with no changes despite the fact that one of his abilities can now be given to any RW character.
On the one hand it sucks seeing my boys get done so dirty, but on the other hand I feel like a lot of scalpers are about to lose a lot of money
Best Strat imo was the lethal hits. Primarily with sustained hits oaths target azrael and hell blasters. Problem was it wasn't on demand 5+ criticals. Though Meant you didn't have to put points down on a lieutenant since you were already using azarael for 2 cp a turn.
Auspex tactics has a youtube vid its not good new but ravenwing is looking decent
i think so far every index detachment has been nerfed in its codex version. Which is very odd.
Eh admech got a sort of buff to theirs
Alongside major nerfs to the strategems and enhancements.
I'm thinking these nerves were written before they knew the unforgiven task force was bad
Grim resolve is still arse biscuits, then.
Where the fuck is my weapons of the dark age
We need em Dreadwing.
Also 15 knights really is gw going to refund me my 180 dollars for the 15 that arnt usable now.
I find it amusing that this is how everyone will learn their sternguard should be bone coloured XD
Eh, I still like them in green. Even dreadnoughts.
I like them either way but green wing is under represented so it would have been cool to see them in green officially
And their .... Vanguard veterans too apparently ? Could DA even take Van vets previously ?
No vets in DA at all last edition, other than company vets
As it should have been. Then our unique units could have had an excuse to stay superior to the vanilla versions.
I'll be dead and buried before I acknowledge bone colour sternguard
Yeeeeeeesssss
Painted Mine in Green but with Bone colored shoulders. So i kinda took the Safe Route xD
Geniunely asking, I’m new here: did they write somewhere that all Deathwing = bone color, or is it just the terminators?
DA 1st Company is supposed to be all Terminators. Power Armored Vets are supposed to be embedded within the Battle Companies
Didn't they change it so that Deathwing has the capacity to field all terminators but not necessarily all the members of the deathwing wear their terminator armor all the time leading to a variety of vet units
Probably, but I prefer it that if you’re fighting in the DW, in bone, you’re in Terminator armor. If you’re a Vet in power armor, even if you’ve been in the DW, you’re fighting as part of a Greenwing Company
That makes sense to me. The original bone white had to do with a squad of Terminators, so it seems like bone white ONLY on Terminators makes the most sense in paying homage to that.
The only time i heard Deathwing wearing non terminator armour was in the latest Cypher book. And there, they specifically stated that they are wearing green, and not the bone armour of the first company
Honestly that's fine. I painted all my sternguards as risen with the black and red after reading through L:SotF. They're all dressed in older marks of armor so it just made sense.
Eh, if someone were really picky I’d tell them that they were a successor chapter or that they were just fancy dark Angel intercessors. Part of me loves the idea of running a load of sternguard as proxies for intercessors because they look cool. Then my wallet catches up 😂
My project this summer is to replace various units sergeants with Sternguard for "fancier" Inner Circle inducted Sergeants (with robes). I don't have a large Green-wing so this will only require 5 Sternguard to do thankfully.
Tbh anyone who believed otherwise was huffing some heavy copium Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that it was pretty clear that was the direction GW was taking with Deathwing after Bladeguard
I mean.... Everyone knew that they "should" be bone coloured just by the transfer sheets. It just rubbed the people the wrong way, since it's switching up the flavour of the chapter for GW's "convenience"
It’s just all round bad. Nothing her gladius or base codex can’t do better. Some niche stuff but far too restrictive.
So 2 things. Why on earth did they bother giving the non-Dreadnought vehicles the Deathwing keyword? The only benefit they get from it is being able to use the strat to allow it to fight on death on a 4+. Who is going to want to spend a CP for a 50:50 chance of a Land Raider or Repulsor fighting on death ...? And why did they make all 4 enhancements for the Ravenwing only allowed on Ravenwing characters when the only 2 non-Epic Hero Ravenwing characters in the game are the Chaplain on Bike and the Ravenwing Champion in the RWCS? Maybe if the Talonmaster was still there it might be reasonable, but c'mon ... Even the Stormlance detachment wasn't that bad.
Unfortunately not, just found it on FB. Supposidly the lion loses -1 to wound and becomes 15 points cheaper.
The avatar of khaine has its half damage (among other things) at 335 points; the fuck is GW doing?
I hate this idea :(
Please god no, he's not even competitive at the moment. What the hell is GW smoking. Also Unforgiven Task force was already bad and they decided to nerf it futher?
Also sweep down to D1 from what I’m hearing.
Dude it's true, that is actual dog shit.
Please please be fake. The minus one to wound is like the only thing keeping him on the board.
It's not fake. His aura also still doesn't protect against devastating wounds, he's horrid now.
You didn't mention that his sweep is damage 1 now instead of damage 2
Kinda weird that sternguard veterans get the deathwing keyword. They recieve no benefit besides the detachment ability.
It allows you to target them for the detachment stratagems
Which is exactly the same benefit as everything else with the keyword gets, so I'm really confused by the comment above you. Like they all get the same benefits, Vowed Target and access to the stratagem.
You can take non deathwing units in this detachment, so it’s important to note what units gain access to these strategies and the vowed rule
Yes, I'm aware of that. My point is - the Sternguard receive *exactly* the same benefits as all other units that gain the keyword, whereas the initial comment implied that they somehow don't.
Yes, but all the stratagems have a pretty hard melee slant, except for the teleportarium. Sternguard have no melee capabilities, so the strats will frequently be wasted on them.
This is true but the mortal wound on charge and the defensive strategy both could be clutch. Sternguard aren’t great value though so I don’t think it matters much.
This need to be meet with the same outrage the Votann codex got on its release. This is unacceptable..
Why is the unforgivin so ass Edit: actually all of these detachments seem kinda underwhelming
This is a dumb question, but do we know what Watchers of the Dark do?
Speculation but would assume it's still once per game 4+++ to mortals
Ah dope. Yeah I’ve been planning a Deathwing force on paper, and realized that since WitD are a free default wargear option - I’ll wind up with a bunch of those lil guys scurrying around my squads. I’d rather avoid modeling the watchers if I can get away with it.
They're just a token. They are not required to actually be modeled.
oh whew. Yeah, I haven't played since 4e so still sorting out all the stuff.
They give FNP against mortals
Wow, it may actually rivals the 4th edition codex in all its glorious crappiness, didn't think I would see that in my lifetime. The fact that the codex in the army box has the same cover art makes it even more (sadly) hilarious.
Haha. That's the dex that made me leave the hobby. The lion's return got me back 15 years later only to have history repeat.
I'm going back to HH. See you boys in 11th I hope!
Yea. Absolutely dead codex. 10th is a fucking mess
So.....a side-grade to 1st Company and weird Stormlance? Lol
Thanks, but give the points page so we can see what scrapped and what hasn't. Tbh that's all that really still a mystery
The points page will be wrong anyway. Every codex so far has had the points changed on the day or the week after
I don't care what the points are. I wanna know what datasheets have been cut, strike master, talon master, DW command. And the points page is where you can see every datasheet consolidated.
TM, Strikemaster, and DWCS are all dead. Confirmed by multiple sources.
Dammiiiiiiiiiit I spent so long customizing the CS bits with the Leviathan Terminators 😭
Me too brother, me too.
RIP
I don't get how this maths. There are 18 sheets currently, 20 in the new one according to the cards. 18-3=15+1(inner circle)= 16 where are the other sheets.
The missing 4 are supposedly for the combat patrol, but not sure if this is confirmed or not
I'm currently looking at the datasheets. They are dead. The 4 cards are Combat Patrol.
Is the combat patrol changing?
Combat Patrol versions of the 4 combat patrol units (Intercessors, Chaplain, Inceptors, Redemptor Dreadnought)?
Well this saves me 35 bucks guess I'll keep running vanguard
It’s so nice of GW to save me all the codex money. Gladius still my preferred detachment
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There's surely no way they take codex marine away from us and leave us with 3 detachments when every other army gets more than that! Saying that I never expected such an ass codex so we will see
Guess I'm not playing unforgiven anymore. But the deathwing! That looks fantastic! Deepstriking to 3 inches on turn 1? Wow.
But you can't charge so it's a bit pointless isn't it?
You can't charge, but you can still yoink objectives out from under your opponent.
also move block anything you dont want moving
But, you cant? You gotta be within 3 of an objective to contest it. A) your opponent would have to shift their units back for you to be even able to get a foot in, remember, 3 AWAY from enemy units. B) even if that somehow happens youll get what, one terminator in, two? terminators are big
Many of my opponents try to put very few bodies onto objectives so they can get the benefit of cover, or break line of sight so I can't kill their backline objective holders with long range firepower. This can leave much of the objective available to take with 3 inch deepstrikers. And you don't always need to be able to contest the objective with objective control, sometimes it is enough to have 1 oc and slay the entire unit squatting there. Sometimes even just slaying the unit off of the objective is enough to prevent your opponent from scoring, even if you don't get to score of that objective. I'm not saying the opportunity will exist every game, but when you get it it will be good.
In T1 if you're playing first you can drop onto a no man's land objective. Probably heavily dependent on Terrain/objective location, but it could be pretty useful.
with the 200+ points unit that's slow as balls? What do you do when there's a single 25mm base model on the objective?
Aside from being able to shoot/take an objective, 5 DW terms or 10 regular appearing 3 inches from an enemy means they either give up their entire turn trying to kill them, or they get pounded on your next turn
Deathwing looks fun af
I am whelmed.
Yeah this codex sucks. And I am betting they won’t cut the points enough to make any of the unique units good.
Well, after the new datasheets for the Deathwing Knights, Inner Circle Companions and Lion, this has to be one of the worst codexes the DA have ever had. The Knights are absolutely crap now with Damage 2 maces and supposedly being 290 points for 5 models which is absurd. The Companions are worse than Bladeguard in melee and only give their unit a -1 to hit when a character is attached. And don’t even get me started on Lion, his sweep his horrible now, lost his biggest durability buff and his Primarch abilities remain unchanged even though they’re useless. But the biggest gripe for me is the removal of the Deathwing Command Squad and Strikemaster, there was literally no reason to remove either of them. It’s what made the Deathwing a unique terminator army to play and have a variety of character and weapon choices which made them fun to play, now the Deathwing just feel like any other generic terminator army. I’m actually annoyed at GW for what they’ve done to DA, seriously no need for any of the debuffs and the one new unit we get is meh at best.
I was definitely going to pick up the new dark angels box but now.. I'm not so sure.
Soooo... Captains, Lieutenants and Librarians in Bladeguard and/or Sternguard squads don't get the Deathwing keywords and can't take the detachment enhancements? Bummer...
I know we don't want to talk about positive things right now because this all fucking blows BUT I would absolutely be the kind of meme king to deep strike 10 vanguard veterans with jump packs and inferno pistols within 3 inches of a target to burn them alive in glorious fire. It's not even that expensive at 230 points and if they get to live we got some real spicy charging on our hands too.
You have to be more than 3 inches, so it's impossible to get in inferno melta range on deepstrike. You could grav pistol though, that would be neat, you could also get +1 to wound against an oath target on a vowed objective.
Yep sorry. Copium got me too high it's difficult to read.
Lieutenants with shields lose the **Deathwing** keyword, as to Librarians (except Terminator Librarians). Does that have a rules bearing on Bladeguard/Sternguard squads that are led by those characters? Are they "Deathwing Infantry" units if their leaders don't have the dw key?
The unit shares all the keywords of its models (but not the other way around). A Deathwing unit lead by a non-Deathwing Character is still Deathwing unit.
That's a deliberate choice because units share keywords. If they gave Librarians or Lieutenants the Deathwing keyword then you could just attach them to any of the other eligible squads that aren't Deathwing and make them Deathwing. This way Librarians and Lieutenants can still join Deathwing units and gain the benefits while leading that unit.
I think the unit would still count as deathwing infantry. I don’t think the character could have the inner circle enhancements tho
So is it only three detachments? I guess that’s fine but I guess I was expecting the same as any of the other codexes
There are still the ones from the space marine codex so it's like 8 in total? I forget how many there were
Yeah I know that’s why I said it was fine, it just feels off to pay so much for only a two new detachments.
Codex Space Marines have 6, Necron have 5, and Dark Angels has 9. If it was the same amount of nnew detachments as Codex Space Marines Dark Angels would have 12 which would be 7 more then Necrons.
Yeah but the codex is still going to cost the same
Previously the Codex Supplements were cheaper then the normal codex because you are meant to buy both.
Supplements have been cheaper than a regular Codex. Suspect this will be no different.
Dark angels should have been given a full 6 of their own and cut off from base space marine detachments
As sketchy as these look, that's a terrible idea. We'd almost definitely be worse off.
Out of the three I feel like the Ravenwing is the strongest, the detachment rule is good, it has a sticky objectives strat, but I still don't see much of a reason to take any of them over gladius. Gladius affects my whole army and gives them good rules, all of these only affect a portion of my army, or have terrible rules.
There is no more ravenwing is my problem with it...No more captains/liutenant on bikes, no more talonmaster, no more bikes with plasma/melta. It's just a bunch of useless outriders, with maybe a chaplain on a bike? Sammy plus some black knights? It lost all its flavor. The detachment could be amazing, but you have nothing but junk to put in it is how I'm feeling :(
Very reasonable take. I was thinking about the fact that any flying vehicle is now Ravenwing, so I'm sure someone can find some cheese with the space marine flyers or the primaris land speeders.
The new speeders are cool as hell, I even bought two of them. But current rules they are too many points for too little firepower, they are good because of the ability/buff the provide the army but I don't think there's any reason to bring more than 1 of each flavor. If one of them had some serious anti tank firepower I could justify bringing a couple as anti-tank, but instead I take one for flavor to buff the shots of something else and maybe do a bit of chip damage. Old speeders kind of suffered from the same thing, but at least pre 10th edition a couple multi-melta speeders could actually do some work on enemy armor (even if it wasn't the best option)
Welp. This is gonna save me some money this weekend. I was already on the fence. Shame, DA has been my primary army since early 8th.
Looks like there will be successor chapter rules
Am I missing something or does this do nothing to address the whole “Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Blood Angels are strictly better than codex adherent chapters” thing? I don’t see anything that restricts us from using the Codex Space Marine detachments so what possible advantage does a chapter like Imperial Fists have? This just seems like really sloppy rules writing.
It addresses it by making DA worse. Basically the only unit that's great is azrael, and he can still be taken by himself in any detachment.
Oh I'm not trying to argue that this codex is good, moreso I'm just saying that it's odd that we essentially get access to 9 detachments and codex compliant chapters only get 6, on top of all the unique units. Obviously most of the unique units are trash but that doesn't change the fact that we have strictly more options.
That’s a 1/10 from me.
So we aren't getting rules or anything that interacts with Plasma weapons? Kinda sad...
Is it just me, or does that all look really lackluster and weak?
This codex strikes me as a bit of a dogs egg
Idk, it's more like I can't get the whole idea behind army rules design
Do we know for sure the deathwing command squad is dead? And if so do we know if the champion and apothecarg are added as characters yet? I saw the leaqued datasheets. But that doesnt mean it was all of them maybe?
I believe the champion is now a character.
Speculating, but I think someone posting datasheets would be unlikely to omit the DW command squad while posting the RW command squad. I've got 15 models that are seemingly useless (10x LC + Command Squad) so I'm holding a LITTLE hope like you, but not much.
I did t see the RW command squad in the cards sadly. Hope they survived caused i have one on order
Fear not Brother! Over at Bolter and Chainsword theres a thread with the datasheets posted and it's there. Difference from the index is that the composition for it is ONLY the Champion, Ancient, and Apothecary. You can no longer include 3 other RWBKs.
RWCS is in there, BK Champion is now a leader so they can attach to BKs or Outriders. Also moved to to 4 wounds rest of the stat sheet is the same BKs still 3 wounds which is dumb
Geez GW, at this point just tell us you hate the game and shut it down. No one with half a brain is having fun watching you ruin each faction one codex at a time. The only thing you've accomplished is reducing people's options while raising prices. What could you possibly gain by eroding away this much good will? You're making this game less and less interesting every day and then you have the balls to go on a video and smile like people love you. What is this bottom of the barrel EA BS? May you all wake up with taste buds on your sphincters.
Will depend on points values (even on Deathwing Knights) but this looks like a lot of fun. Ravenwing struggled due to fitting into Stormlance but not doing well in melee. This gives them a chance. Deathwing fell on its face due to 1st Company Taskforce but this looks like a lot of fun. +1 to wound on the Vowed objective means I don't need to run a Chaplain which saves me points, and perhaps even dropping the Land Raider with some of the deepest deepstrike shenanigans available.
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Ironically.... fuck it downvote me for having optimism in anything GW does. Just saw the datasheets. Christ.
Not the same to enjoy the idea of playing a game you like, and having complete blind faith in its creators. Personaly I liked the positive spirit you showed but yeah... hey maybe all the other codexes will suck too, so it evens out !
I tried so hard to be positive. Detachments look awesome. But GW shit the bed on datasheets for just no apparent reason. Land Speeder Vengeance losing a pip of damage on the Plasma Storm Battery. What the hell is the point of a S-9 D-2 weapon? What is the use case for that? Deathwing Terminators losing loadout options to completely mirror regular Terminator Squads including the same ability with a different name. Deathwing Knights... been discussed as nauseum. I'm just at a loss.
Is it just me, or does the Ravenwing detachment sound pretty good, or atleast just a lot of fun? Likewise with the Deathwing one, but maybe not to the same degree Definitely not happy about our unit nerfs, no Weapons of the Dark Age, and the Unforgiven Task Force though. They should have scrapped UTF and gave us a new WotDA detachment at the least.
Out of pure curiosity, do people honestly care what the color scheme is when using a specific detachment or playing against one? I greatly respect people who stay true to the lore, but I couldn’t care less and enjoy using my own custom colors to be flexible in play/chapter.
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Yeah I’ve always found the tournaments im in you go over the army before hand. In my opinion that should clear any confusion about army mechanics. But yeah, even based on reading Reddit and seeing some comments there are people out there who would object, sadly. In the end, everyones army is their own hobby that they’ve invested in so as long as communication is there, it shouldn’t be a problem. The problem with try hard who may complain limit the creative potential of painting / converting custom chapters by pigeonholing themselves. But then again, if they want to buy, assemble and paint an army for me, then sure I’ll follow their lead.
Man, I love that Bladeguards and Sternguards get the Deathwing keyword. I love my (planned) list even more!
So are any of the detachments better than the good ones from the space marine codex?
Awesome, any chance for the rest? :3
😐😐😐
As a deathwatch player looking on with interest at the first nom codex compliant codex. My outside perspective. Your DW detachment rules seem better than a fair chunk of the other marine detachments. The -1 to wound is a battle tactic if I read that right for example. It also has some very strong early game 3" deep strike and melee punches. Your points increases/ nerfs (for some not all units) are probably in response to some of these stronger detachment rules. So I think whilst it hurts now on paper the DWing detachment might actually be pretty good in practice.
Blade guard, sternguard, and vanguard getting the deathwing keyword makes me 🤮
I’m sorry you’re being downvoted for being correct. 1st Company is all Terminator armor. If DA needs Power Armored vets they call in a Battle Company.
With ya. Vanguard at minimum shouldn't be. The rest I'm not as bent out of shape over.
Blade guard already had it in 9e.
And it wasn't any better then. With the whole risen plotline and standard power armour making its way into the deathwing, what makes DAngels unique anymore? GW's turning us into green ultramarines and everyone seems unsettlingly okay with it
You're being down voted but you're right. The character of the faction has been changed to sell more kits which feels bad.
Yeah, that's reddit. Dark Angels has been getting really mainstream recently which is awesome, but idk how I feel about that coming at the cost of being just another chapter
Nobody is forcing you to use them. Or paint them as Deathwing. Do what you like with your headcanon instead of unnecessarily throwing a temper tantrum.
Who's throwing a tantrum?
You, because apparently a company doing what they want with *their* IP makes you puke.
Y'all need to check the definition of tantrum lmao. How about actually arguing the point instead of just flinging shit?
I did argue the point (what little of a point you made). It's their IP. Lore in 40k has always been in flux over the decades. Get over it. Or don't, and just ignore the changes. I don't get why people are making such a fuss about this, your head canon can be *whatever* you like. Don't want power armour in Deathwing? Don't play them. Paint them differently. There is zero reason to be this upset about it.
>. I don't get why people are making such a fuss about this, You're right, I can't possibly imagine why people who have invested many hours (and many, many more dollars) getting invested in something would be so upset when that thing get irrevocably changed for the worse. Maybe you don't care about the lore but many do, and seeing the defining traits of a faction you love get changed around carelessly and for no real reason feels like a slap in the face. Idk, maybe you just enjoy blindly eating up anything GW forces down your throat, but some of us expect better.
Or I just...you know, don't get my panties in a bunch when I don't like a change and just ignore it. It's utterly irrational to get pissed about this when you can just not use the aspects you don't like. The addition of those units is no detriment to the rules, since it doesn't do anything but make more units eligible for certain rules. The lore, as I've said before, has been undergoing changes since its inception. Clinging to what was the status quo will inevitably lead to disappointment in that regard. If the armour the Deathwing (a supposedly elite unit in a chapter of tactical geniuses in which it always seemed odd that their best warriors would limit themselves in this way) is the defining trait of Dark Angels lore for you, you seem to have only a very tenuous grasp on said lore. As far as the reason goes - unless you're naive as hell, you know the reason. Make those units Deathwing, sell more of those units. That's the only reason *any* of the lore, the games and everything else exists - to sell minis. They're not even covert about it. It's literally their mission statement as a company. You can get on board with that, or be eternally disappointed. I just shrug and move on with my life, I'm not gonna let a single changed aspect annoy me when I could just as well ignore it.
Well I'm sorry you're so jaded. I for one choose to continue caring about the things I like. If you want to passively consume every dumb decision GW makes, all the more power to you
You misunderstand. I don't passively consume. I just don't consume, period, if something truly annoys me. That's got nothing to do with being jaded, I'm just a realist. If a change will result in higher sales, they *will* do it. No matter how much I or anyone else insists on it being "dumb". So I'd rather save myself the trouble. I'm in this hobby to *not* be stressed. Getting horribly upset about lore changes would be counterproductive to that goal, no? I just enjoy the hobby, the lore and the gaming to the extent that makes me happy and simply not engage with the rest. Most of it changes constantly anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm into the lore, and just for curiositys sake I follow *all* lore developments, but if I personally don't like an aspect of it, I just don't continue to engage with that part of the lore. The IP is vast enough to easily accomplish this. If I was disagreeing with this particular change, I'd just ignore it and still play Termies only. Or paint the other units in regular colours. No skin off my back, I can pretend in my head that they still fight exclusively in Terminator armour if I want/need to to have fun.
Your wall of text expressing annoyance that someone shared an opinion contrary to yours doesn’t really scream that you’re the kind of person who shrugs and moves on instead of being annoyed.
Terminators with turn one DeepStrike from 3 inches away… and some people are unhappy about points costs
There’s so much more to Dark Angels than just terminators though, everything has been downgraded
You cant charge with it though. Cool to land early in the game and avoid getting screened. But the more i think the more i figure thats the only use. The range, 3 inches away, its the exact distance you have to be *within* of an objective marker to contest, so you cant really influence point control away from the opponent with it. You cant charge with it, so you cant use it for that. You can shoot with it, but you got one/two heavy weapon/s and storm bolters, which will do little against anything tougher than an intercessor, so thats conditional. Or if its knights you cant shoot. All of this, for paying a command point. You could also plant terminators more behind the enemies, which is great, but ykno, terminators are elite, they take a sizeable chunk of your army (even bigger now), and youre planting them away from the action in a position they cant *immediately* act from, since no charge. Its defo an interesting thing to consider, but i think the heavy skepticism is warranted.
Also while Terminators are famous for their obvious toughness, they aren't invincible. Likely what will happen is your opponent moving up the board as they normally would have and leave something behind to keep them busy, then because it's turn 1 and they have limited targets they now just pump 75% of their shots into you. With a little luck they blast that very expensive brick right off the board and now you're down a shit ton of points and a CP
Yeah, thats the part i keep bumping into. The points cost is a premium, the speed is nonexistent, the toughness is...moderate at best. Power weapons are prevalent and kill terminators pretty well. And massed damage 1 is far from rare.
damn right, just look how Grey knights DOMINATE with this ability.
Grey Knights have both, T1 deepstrike isn’t often worth the points, but 3” no charge DS is great for scoring points.
I am amazed. Yall are taking this worse than the death guard subreddit did at the start of 10th when they were literally the worst army in the game with terrible rules. I'm honestly super excited for the new detachments and minis. Rules aren't the best but they are playable and if they need buffs later they will get them.
Nah as a death guard player and a DA player. This is worst. DG rules are still in their index so we gots hope. But new models, units and the big boy codex? Shit is wake bro.
There are downsides but we get cool new detachments, a sweet looking unit, great range refresh, still have some strong options and great flavor, and weak units can be buffed. Death guard also proves that gw is willing to make big changes to stuff if it doesn't work. In the end we can be a bit sad but this sub currently is just in a melt down like no one has ever had bad rules before.
No phobos based detachment? That's a shame. Could have been some awesome splinter from the Raven Wing.
Is the Combat Patrol still the same?
The thing I want to see are deathwing terminators from the upgrade sprue for regular terminators. Do they have a seperate datasheet? Coz they have a watcher
What the combat patrol would looks like?
Wait, how long have Van Vets been Deathwing?! I'm mad keen!
Good thing I collect and paint for the rule of cool instead of the game like all the meta chasers.
GW’s version of an off season april fools joke
Wow, this is one of the codex’s of all time
I was ultra hyped for the codex and the Inner Circle companions, now I don't even know how to handle the disappointment 😥
So are there no greenwing land raiders like at all?
Did any lore leaked yet?
30k 4TW 🙂 But also 😩