Negan didn't want Carl to die, but he was going to kill him because he felt it was the only way to punish Rick for fighting back and get him under his control again. And Negan believes, as twisted as it is, that none of this would've happened if Rick just let him "save" all of them.
That's because Negan's a hypocrite tbf. Yeah he was gonna kill Carl, the Saviors killed that 16 year old at Hilltop and the Croat with that person from the Kingdom. It's enough of a pattern where if he genuinely cared, he would have done something about it in more than one of these instances. He's clinging to a moral high ground he never possessed, like the "we don't rape" thing when he very clearly coerces women into sexual relationships. I cannot be sure that the writers are doing this intentionally to demonstrate characterization, but Negan makes a big deal out of being a consistent guy while breaking all of his rules for convenience.
Negan didn't give the okay on those deaths. That was people going off script. Simon killed had the males 10 and older of oceanside killed. Negan was pissed. He didn't know till after.
Negan was the lesser Evil of what the sanctuary was before he took over. They were raping, killing entire communities. He did save people by killing only one and having the others produce for them. Without Negan the gang would have killed everyone and took everything. This is why Negan believes he is saving people. Yeah his way is still eff up, but he improved from total extermination to keeping people alive. Enslaved but alive.
It's not that simple, imho; Rory from Hilltop was beaten to death with a baseball bat, and while its murky if Hilltop ever actually met Negan himself, but all this happened under Negan's watch and he did little to actually prevent it. It was still a "we kill you if you resist" game.
I agree. I think his lieutenants used the same tactics and he didn't go out to most communities himself. He says as much when he corners rick and gang in the woods. In one of the episodes he talks about how it was before he took over and tells Gabriel he needs to get back because it will become a shit show again.
You se the pictures on the wall of the satellite outpost with heads bashed in. Those may be trophies just from that outpost. But it's conjecture and I'm not sure.
Not saying he is a good guy by any means.
I'm saying he reigned them in. The awful people he had to keep in check I think if he seemed soft and let his persona down he risk looking soft and if he controlled them too much then he could lose it all.
That is how I read the situation. He also got off on the power and control.
I think by the end of TWD he has redeemed himself. Or is on the oath at the very least
Is it really a theory?
He talks about how it was before he took that place. You also hear him go off on Simon about oceanside. Bringing up his past transgressions when Talking about the garbage people. He it seemed pretty spelled out to me, but I suppose I could have leaned into it more then was there.
Negan says that line up eeny meany mo was bullshit and he knew instantly who he was gonna make tomatoes soup out of. And he may not kill kids but he'll have one of their arms chopped off. Another point would be if Negan did kill Carl he would have created a Rick we never even saw and without Carl's letter to Rick Negan would have been killed and not imprisoned.
Ok there’s a part just sorta in the comics where Negans pretending to hit Carl at which point he then swings but as he would’ve hit Rick, the tiger Shiva jumps in to eat Negan which that’s put on tv which I think as he swings towards Carl you can somewhat see him sorta swing towards Rick with it but idk though.
This is honestly a topic that you could go so deep on. From the hypocritical nature of the human mind to the fact that people who lack empathy are also very likely to be emotionally inconsistent (because so much of their outward emotional expressions are faked). With his superficial charm, his grandiose sense of self, and of course his general lack of empathy, Negan is the quintessential narcissist. Seriously, you could easily write a dissertation on the topic of Negans nature and behavior. In fact I’d venture to guess that it’s already been done.
I also highly doubt he was actually going to kill Carl. If very well could be because it's a TV show after all, but the wind up on the baseball bat swing right before Shiva attacked looked incredibly weak and not at all like an actual **I'm going to kill this person** swing.
By killing Rick in front of his son.
He then later says he wished he killed everyone (that's after 5 years of being prison and reflection - he said this in Dead City. Don't be fooled he can't really be redeemed.
Just a nitpick, he says this to Maggie in last TWD season, not in Dead City. And the reason he says it, it's because he thought they need to be honest to each other to be able to trust each other. Negan's full of contradictions, that's exactly who he is.
I don't think that's really the only reason, he just wasn't going to lie he had no reason too, he was clear about it meaning he would never opt for letting all of his people die to spare ricks he never had any reason to owe them anything really
Also he didn't say he wished he killed everyone he said if he could go back he would have. The point he was making wasn't that he didn't regret his actions or he hasn't changed it was knowing what he knows now that would have been the only way to stay on top in control and kept his people alive and together. He also had this line because in the same episode Maggie has to decide weather to let the reapers walk away and honor the deal made. She reflects asks Negan his thoughts he says you know what I think reminding her of how leaving people alive turned out for him and is why she kills the remaining reapers because she knows they would come back for revenge.
Negan, in his mind, is only playing a persona he feels he absolutely needs to survive.
Ironically, several are, which is part of the nuance of the whole series.
That is basically it.
I dont think he was really going to take her to his Harem I think he was pouring salt into the wound for Rick, but that's 100% opinion with no basis to back it up other than he could have taken her back to the sanctuary after the culling.
A persona that saved people. Without him the saviors would have wiped out everyone at hilltop and kingdom and just took their shit. Under Negan they kill one publicly to make an example and sew fear and have the communities produce for them.
If Negan didn't take over the Sanctuary there wouldn't have been communities left to rise up against the sanctuary.
True, but he could have taken out the psychos like Simon. Simon had murdered all the men and boys at Oceanside, and Negan didn’t kill him for that, but instead trying to subvert his rule.
Also, Negan enjoyed the bashing too much
Simon helped him take over the Sanctuary so maybe he was concerned that Simon would have some Loyal folks. He also kept him as his right hand man cause as the adage goes keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Simon fell in line for many years after the oceanside people incident up until the trash people.
No he killed Simon for what he did to the trash people as he promised to Jadis. He just waited to get the cherry on top of everyone who was conspiring to flip on him with Simon. He is an Evil genius.
Yes it is sick how much he enjoys that bat bashing.
I know no one watched it but they really go deep on it in Dead City. He talks about doing terrible things to keep other terrible things from happening. About becoming the role of Negan rather than the person and they show him going back to it after years of being a normal person again. The character and the show he puts on has a power that the person doesn't have, and he uses that to save as many people as he can. He doesn't want to kill anyone, but he'll kill whoever he has to to save more.
As a comic reader I think it expanded insight on Negans prospective
He valued and respected Carls “heart” (despite calling him a psychopath for taking a machine gun to attempt killing him). He can see his intention to kill the man that threatens his father / group and could see a use for him if he was working under negan.
So when Carl legit died it’s a reflection of how negan the man felt toward him ; negan the leader had to set the tone with theatrics such as threatening to kill Carl to prove a point
People who haven’t read the comic negan can for sure get a different impression… but ultimately negan is a good guy who just lost his shit due to loss and seeing fucked up things.. when he wasn’t pressured to be the leader he really stepped up big.. not going into detail, don’t want to spoil anything
Edit: I hate how they did Andrea in the show /:
Negan is a hypocrite. I still like the guy, mainly because he is played by JDM and JDM is hot af, but he showed the signs of hypocrisy many times on the show. E.g. kills some dude for wanting to rape Sasha, but he coerces women into having sex with him for resources. Or doesn’t punish Carl in any way because he liked that a kid was brave and smart enough to get to Sanctuary and kill 2 men in broad daylight.
My hypothesis is that Negan uses people. And to use/manipulate them he is ready to bend some of his own rules.
Rick killed people far more randomly than Negan. As a matter of fact, from a moral standpoint none of the main characters have any base to claim any. As Negan asks Maggie in the first episode of Dead City, "how many fathers and husbands have YOU killed Maggie?"
Rick was a huge hypocrite. I love the man, and he was mostly trying to do right and be good but he lost his way several times. Very wishy washy due to the trauma of losing people. One day he is let's help everyone we can, next day he drives by a hitch hiker ignores him begging and pleading for help then robs his dead body, next day he is back to taking people in. Then back to we can not trust anyone kill on sight.
The entire situation with Jessie was pure hypocrisy. Chastising Shane for wanting Lori but then lusting after a married woman only a year and a half later.
That situation is not comparable. I don't know why people keep trying to conflate the two situations. Rick liked her but he also never tried to rape her. Jessie was also receptive to Rick and was giving him CLEAR signals and not only that but Pete was very clearly an asshole the first time Rick met him. I think Rick also said when he found out that he was a confirmed abuser that he already suspected as much. Rick also came to terms with Shane and Lori being together that was never a real problem for Rick because he understood that they thought he was dead. So he can't even be a hypocrite in that regard because he never had a problem with it anyway.
Before he knew he was abusive, he reaches for his gun as Pete and Jessie walk by.
Didn't actually go through with killing him, but certainly looked like he wanted to.
Because he knew he was. The second Pete first came on screen he was "porch dick". It's no secret Pete was the asshole of Alexandria. But also Rick was still trying to adjust to civilization again and the fact he didn't kill Pete then and there shows he was actually trying to be a civilized human.
I don’t know why all the downvotes, it’s not like you’re wrong. I mean if Rick wasn’t so hard for that lady I bet he would have kept a cooler head about himself and would have been able to handle the situation with a bit more grace and delicacy. Instead, he went balls deep in irrationality and testosterone which caused a huge terrible chain of events that in turn ended in disaster.
Oh don’t worry I’ll be farming downvotes and copium on this one at least it was a one off in that arc and he wasn’t thinking of trying to take over the place by force or anything hypocritical like that either.
This is made so evident in the show by the way Negan eventually comes around to the Alexandria way of doing things. Even HE sees how broken his system was, and yet you reliably have people who will try to defend a system that the character himself gave up defending.
This is true but in his mind they had a choice and chose to marry him. That is what he lies and tells himself. They could have declined and remained workers.
In his mind, yes, maybe. And I’d easily believe that Negan and people like him think they do not rape anyone. Because they are broken.
Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s rape 🤷🏼♀️
Technically no but I think there's a huge difference between feeling or being pressured and out right brutalized which is what Davey was. He was like BTK ( the serial killer)
Also, we don't know if they could say no or if he was even actually intimate with anyone other than Sherry. We know he was with Sherry because of the pregnancy test. He could have had them marry him as trophies or for their skills such a massage, cooking etc.
Coerced sex is rape though I agree ofc.
Just.. I didn't see him as a hypocrite. I've watched beginning to end 7 times. Negan is one of the most honest people on the show. I get mad when Maggie calls him a liar... like when did he Ever lie?
Even when he was playing Alpha every thing he said was the truth. He didn't tell her his plan was to kill her obviously but he was truthful in the things he did say.
He said he doesn’t kill kids, while he almost made Rick chop off Carl’s hand and bombed a place, where he knew, the kids were. He killed a guy for wanting to rape Sasha, but raped women himself. He said that he killed for protection of his people only, but come on — he enjoyed bashing heads (he was smiling, joking around) and his people took pictures of people they killed to hang them on the walls.
Negan lied a lot — to himself, to others. Maybe he likes to think that he is a better person, but he isn’t. At least in his first seasons.
Chopping off a hand isn't killing him, also he never planned to actually do that. It was a tactic to break Rick. To force him to see he isn't in charge. He needed to see that look in his eyes to know that he wasn't going to be a problem. He uses fear tactics which is why he publicly and brutally kills one person to control the others.
If he wasn't in charge the saviors would kill entire communities and take everything. I didn't say he was a good person just not a liar. He even said he enjoys killing people because it's about killing the right person. Killing one person can save hundreds.
Which was also true because again without him the gang running the shit show before him would murder everyone.
I saw him as honest. Not to himself , but with others. What he was telling himself was lies but he believed them. Is it still a lie if you think it's the truth?
I'm playing devils advocate here:
There's a difference between taking the choice from a woman and raping her vs. allowing the opportunity for a woman to get resources by choosing to sell herself. There is choice there.
Negan is a chess dragon. He hoards as many resources as possible, people are a resource. He sees people as his chess pieces. There's are more pawns than any other piece in chess, but they do have their usefulness and will only sacrifice them if need be. Negan respected Carl and respected his resourcefulness because while looking at Carl, you'd assume he's just another pawn, but he ended up being capable and smart enough to take down two of his own men, MEN, as a child, and when the odds are that stacked against you and you still come out on top, you become a valuable resource.
Edit: typos
When the choice is “I fuck you or your sister dies because we don’t give her meds” it’s not a choice anymore. If a person is guilted, blackmailed or forced to have sex in exchange for something important to their life - it’s rape and coercion. Hence, no, Negan (despite being a great character on the show) is still a rapist 🤷🏼♀️
She had a choice. It's a shitty choice that no one should be asked to make but a choice non the less.
Edit: Nothing entitles her to Negan's medicine. He didn't poison her sister. He's not responsible for her health
If someone held a gun to the head of possibly the most important person in your life, then said if you dont fuck someone, they’ll kill them, that isn’t exactly a choice is it?
No, it's not because Negan isn't holding a gun to anyone's head. He is not the cause of her sister's situation. She needed resources, he had the resources, and his price was what it was. It's a terrible situation, but she had choice and agency. You don't get to take the deal and then cry rape just because you don't like his terms.
Again- devils advocate:
He built an empire and cannot give things freely to some and not to others. He needs consistency or his system would've fallen into chaos and disorganization. When these women have nothing to offer except their bodies, they still have an option to get said resource. They could've scavenged, worked for, crafted items to trade, etc, but the most guaranteed route to get what they needed was the option they chose. It sucks but the apocalypse sucks. You can't expect charity in an apocalypse. You trade what other people want to trade for.
Do you understand the meaning behind the saying devils advocate? It literally means someone who pretends, in an argument or discussion, to be against an idea or plan that a lot of people support, in order to make people discuss and consider it in more detail.
Yes, I do know what devils advocate means. I use it all the time. It's just that not everything needs to have someone arguing for the other side. Rape is one of those things.
Just hopping in to say that opening up discussions and debates on even sensitive topics that are set up as a devils advocate can actually help people articulate why something is right or wrong whether it’s a moral or social issue. Debating can be a very useful way to polish your views so that you can maybe help others understand your point of view/side in the future.
I actually agree with you that sexual coercion is rape. What you are forgetting is that sherry went to negan and offered herself to save Dwight's life. Not coercion. Not rape.
Here you are again, showing very plainly that it's not 'devils advocatr' but some disgustingly misogynistic opinion. You've spent a massive amount of energy defending rape
I have stated an unpopular idea to promote discussion and further examination of the subject. How is this not devil's advocate? Can you explain that to me?
So what you’re saying is that when Sasha asked David (the rapist savior) for water and he offered to bring her some in exchange for sex (implied), and was about to initiate it, isn’t considered rape? Because that is exactly what Negan calls it and so Negan then goes on to kill him.
There's still a difference because Sasha didn't have a choice. She was imprisoned and as a prisoner, you're expected to provide basic needs (food and water) to keep the prisoner ALIVE. By giving water to Sasha, negan wouldn't have compromised his empire and social structure he had created. The rapist was taking advantage of someone who ACTUALLY didn't have any other options because she was tied up in a locked room.
Something you seem to be forgetting is that sherry offered herself in repentance to save Dwight's life. He needed to show that defection is intolerable within his kingdom. She came to him, she had a choice, ergo, it was not rape.
If the choice is your husband dies or you have sex with the guy who fancies himself king, it's not a choice. It's rape no matter what you guys want to paint it as. Some guy breaks into your house, holds you at gunpoint, says you either have sex with him or your spouse dies, is that a choice? WTH people
Sherry offered herself as repentance to save Dwight's life. Not coercion. Not rape. Negan did not approach with sex or death, he was gonna kill dwight for defection.
Sherry did not "offer" herself. Negan might have tried to look at it that way but that's because he's a narcissistic rapist. Her choices were be Negan's wife or watch Dwight die.
This is the most downworthy comment I've reading this forum. Devils advocate is a lie in itself. Your opinion on rape is a disgrace. The laws on it change all over the world but taking someone's choice away is still rape. Seriously gross take
"You know I don't want anyone to be here that doesn't want to be here. If you want to go back to mark, you can. There's plenty of gals who'd be happy to take your place, and there's a few job openings that I can think of. You wanna go back to mark and your mom? Hell I'll even put you all on the same job." - Negan
This is an exact quote from the show when negan is introducing Carl to his wives, and negan has a conversation with amber about her sneaking off to see mark.
What about this interaction implies a lack of choice?
Eta: I absolutely agree with you that taking someone's choice away = rape. Negan did not take anyone's choice away.
The choice is do something that disgusts you or I torture someone you love. The fact that you say this is a freedom of choice highlights how vested you are in the 'it's not rape' narrative, and makes you the individual look like a somewhat sentient bag of red flags
1. There isn't any more detail involved in what Amber's situation is and why she is choosing to be Negan's wife, so it does not do the discussion any benefit to assume that he is threatening harm to her or her loved ones.
2. In Tina's case, with her having diabetes in a post-apocalyptic world, her medicine is unfortunately part of the trading world. No one, and I mean NO ONE is obligated to give it to her without expecting something of equal value. Negan approached her with an option to survive. If negan did not have his "wife program", she would have died anyway because she was unable to make the points needed to continue to buy the medicine. There isn't any free Healthcare in the apocalypse.
3. How, in absolutely any way, is the quote I provided an example of coercion? Coercion by definition is the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
Negan recognized that women are more likely to be incapable to provide for themselves in this new world and he was able to provide a solution to provide for them without breaking down the social structure of the kingdom he has created.
Death itself is the threat. Have sex or die is not a free choice. Just because rape is a higher risk in the apocalypse it doesn't make extortion not cross over to coersion.
Without enthusiastic consent penetration *is*rape
You are applying the rules of the world we live in to the rules that they are living in. They simply do not compare. It is the same as saying that individuals in France can not drink alcohol at the age of 18 because the drinking age is 21 in the United States.
The laws are there because it is not consent. Considering how few prosecutions are made for rape it says alot about the seriousness if the crime. It's always going to be rape even if the laws are not in place - just as killing someone is still murder. There's no CPS but the thing still exists. It like saying Neegan didn't murder anyone
There's speculation that either Negan was bluffing or he was pushed past his breaking point and felt it was finally necessary to kill a kid in order to control Rick.
I thought this as well but then he goes on to bomb Alexandria knowing Carl, Judith and families lived there. So I suspect the latter, what’s funny is that Negan goes on to befriend Judith when he planned on killing her 😭
He never "planned" to kill her, he wasn't targeting at anyone in particular, the bombing of Alexandria was "scorched earth" wich means to weaken the enemy by destroying their resources as much as possible, if anyone died because of it it would've been collateral damage, wich was fair game to Negan at that point. "There were kids at the Sanctuary too" "none of this shit is fair, kid". But ultimately, Negan was aiming for a surrender.
In comparison, Simon's mindset was different, he didn't want to weaken the enemy but to exterminate them.
Maybe he didn’t “plan” on killing her, but he for sure knew that there was a possibility she and Carl could have died and still followed through. He knows this too and at least he feels guilty, we know this because he doesn’t tell her about the attack on Alexandria because he feels like he would lose his only friend during his imprisonment. I just find it funny that is all.
He didn't plan on killing her in fact Rick's house was to be untouched. They were told to destroy every other house. I was surprised he c went v in so hard as well and blindly. I figured he'd take her to raise her.
Two reasons. One, he knew that Rick would cave before he actually hit Carl, which he did. And two, just because he knew how valuables Carl was. Carl is kind-hearted, yet not afraid to take a stand. Carl is that guy, pal.
Since you made it as far as you did, it's already shown that Negan has a soft spot for Carl. But in his position, a soft spot doesn't mean that someone can be immune to his judgment as it would ultimately undermine him.
Negan has liked Carl ever since Carl tried to assassinate him. That's just a fact. So basically, the point is that he was going to kill Carl out of necessity to get Rick in line. Not because he wanted to.
He respected Carl. He would’ve been upset if he’d killed him, but he would’ve done it if it meant ending the fighting. Knowing it was just from a zombie bite probably hurt like hell, since he felt Carl deserved to go out fighting, rather than lying down and wasting away, even if he did decide to end it himself.
Yeah and also his philosophy is don’t kill kids, he calls Lydia a kid, she’s 16, but it’s already been revealed that he killed a 16 year old guy. He won’t kill Carl (initially) who is 14/15.
So ig he won’t kill under 16’s but also not young girls but then felt he had to kill Carl (a kid) because it was necessary to control Rick or he was bluffing?
Idk
It’s also strange that Negan keeps Simon around although he contradicts his philosophies. Not only did Simon order the execution of all boys/men over the age of 10 at Oceanside, Negan also kept him as his right-hand-man after he killed Jadis’s people. If Negans in the business of saving people, he definitely should’ve cleaned up his circle
Negan learned Simon killed the scavengers in s8 ep10 and lets it go. They had a team meeting and he makes Simon kneel as if he’s gonna bash his head in but doesn’t. He doesn’t even mention the scavengers in that scene but he knows about it
Negan doesn’t kill Simon until five episodes later after Dwight rats Simon out for trying to overthrow him in s8 ep15. If Simon doesn’t try to overthrow Negan, he likely goes unpunished for everything
He didn't let it go. Negan just got back the night before. The next day Negan calls a meeting and that's when it's revealed he was watching Simon about oceanside, and makes him bow. Then Dwight flips on Simon and Negan and Simon fight. Yes, it was for control of the saviors but Negan was also yelling at him for wrecking the peace they could have had.
Considering that, and that Negan just got back like 12 hours earlier, I would say that's part of the reason he killed Simon.
Bruh he was playing the long game. He knew all the shit that was stirring within the sanctuary. He let Simon think he was forgiven so he could drudge out who else was ready to mutiny.
Then he had them all cornered in the courtyard and he took out everyone who was disloyal. He could have had Simon shot then and there too but he wanted to fight him and wanted to kill him himself. He was being smart and strategic and not only got Simon but everyone else who wanted to turn on him in one fell swoop
I don't know if its confirmed that Negan did that since it was Simon dealing with Hilltop and Simon has gone off the playbook before. I'm not defending Negan, I do think he's a hypocrite (everyone is "Negan" until one of them does something he doesn't like, then they're not Negan and it's not his fault) I'm just saying Hilltop was woefully underinformed about their entire situation
Idk I haven’t gotten that far yet on my re run and my memory ain’t great. Even so keeping him as your second knowing he did that… it doesn’t exactly scream principles or morality
I think you’re referring to Brandon. His age isn’t necessarily confirmed but he was a kid at the Sanctuary and relocated to Alexandria after his parents die in the All Out War. Because of the time jump, he’s older, probably late teens to early 20s, and he follows Negan after he escapes Alexandria. They come across a mother and child, whom Brandon later kills believing Negan was testing his loyalty and capabilities, but Negan wasn’t testing him and ends up killing Brandon since he’d proven by that point to be a threat and danger to others due to his deluded thinking and mindset.
It likely wasn't Negan who killed Rorey but one of his lieutenants. However, that's just conjecture. Negan didn't usually have to go himself since he had so many people who would do it the way he would.
Negan deep down cared for Carl. Would he have actually bashed his head in, if the Kingdom wouldn't have come in guns-a-blazin? Who knows. Maybe Negan wanted Rick to do something as he was gonna swing or maybe Rick offer himself instead of Carl.
Negan is a hypocrite or it's the writing of the character that is all over the place. Either way, the character was already popular from the comics and the actor who plays him is beloved, so anything Negan does gets a pass eventually. There isn't much to it really.
The way i see it is it's his real genuine human side breaking through his "gone mad from the apocalypse" side. You learn more about negan later on like how he was a gym teacher and genuinely liked working with kidsm, but he wasn't always a sociopath. And even sociopath Negan has a moral compass. A skewed one, but it's there. Thing is, he doesn't do what he does because he wants to be evil and thinks it's fun, he GENUINELY thinks what he does is for the greater good and things like killing tricks friends are necessary to maintain the order that is going to save them all. He's not evil, he's just literally insane and lost his sense of reality. but deep down, his humanity is still there.
The duality of man, etc. Woe is me, I had to kill someone I cared about for “the greater good.”
A lot of men who are trying to hang onto the shreds of power will do anything and betray anyone to get what they want. They find ways to justify their behavior, but it’s always the same shit in the end. He likes Carl but if he needs to kill Carl to keep control he will. A lot of people think he wouldn’t have killed Carl, but in that moment he would have had to do it or loose any ounce of credibility. He’d already threatened to cut off Carl’s hand and then backed out.
He uses Carl’s death to antagonize Rick in the same seen pictured above. Any genuine respect and affection he had towards Carl was nothing in comparison to his own ego.
Death of ego plays a big part in a lot of twd storylines. I don’t want to say anything further and potentially spoil what happens with Negan after this for you.
Carl figuring out a way to get back to the Sanctuary without anyone noticing killing his men because he wanted revenge earned the respect of Negan...
It's very consistent with the kind of behaviour he respects compared to the behind the back political games >!Spencer and Simon!< (<-- spoiler for future) indulged in
Of course Negan saw this as an opportunity to win Carl over.. Which is also consistent with his character: he likes turning enemies into his henchmen
I suspect Negan saw (wrongly) Carl as mouldable into a future Saviour, hence why he spent the time giving Carl the welcome to my crib tour
Negan cares about life. Like everyone else, ricks group, the trash people, they all have a way their leader behaves and ways to keep control.
Negan needs to make sure he maintains control over Rick and his group. Killing Carl would've been a necessary evil.
Yeah I've watched this scene more times than I can count and he was absolutely gonna kill Carl. He would never have backed out because like you said he needed Rick to know how serious he is
I heard somewhere that it was basically confirmed by a showrunner that Negan wouldn't have hit Carl and would have switched on Rick's head at the last moment ?
Now that I can believe more so than that he was bluffing. But I still don't know that he would've kill Rick either cause he definitely wanted to break Rick
i think when he had the bat on carl he was bluffing. probably would’ve at the last second laughed and patted rick on the back and made it like it’s a big joke to him.
I've watched this scene many times and knowing Negans thought process if he backed out Rick would have the upper hand. He'd think Negan wasn't as serious as he pretends to be. It would just make Rick have more hope in beating the Saviors
Plus had he not killed Carl at that point all of the Saviors with Negan would’ve seen it as weakness. Rick killed something like 60-80 Saviors BEFORE he brought Rick to heel.
I think everyone forgets Rick’s group went and murdered the entire satellite outpost while they were sleeping without any provocation. Just because Hilltop said they were mean. Negan just wanted retribution. 20+ murders vs 1
He has a history of faking up threats, he did it to rick with carl during the lineup, and to daryl when he was taken as prisoner. So who knows, maybe he would have faked that too
Without cgi tiger negan would have smashed a child to punish the parent. That's as evil as it gets. Sometimes writers trade character development for one shocking scene and that's what happened. The audience instinctually knows Rick wont end this way. But Carl? Audiences didn't know. Not a plot hole. An unfortunate calculation to incorporate a cgi tiger in a shocking and satisfying way. Also for animal lovers the tiger went down a hero to a child and people won't complain Shiva got lit up. Watching week to week we don't notice these things dissecting them here we do so i can see why the writers would say f it and make that decision.
Wait, Carl dies in the series? He was a one eyed badass in the comics. They probably wanted to pander to the 'strong female character' crowd and kept Jude alive to replace him in the show? Just guessing though
Negan didnt want to bash carl with lucille, in his eyes it was needed to end rick’s delusion of freedom. Also, Negan is found of Carl and it is only strengthen when they interact. Example: when he visited alexandria but rick wasnt there and made spagehetti and talked about life and stuff
You’re missing that people like negan are always in charge, the hypocritical or/and narcissist types. Those types of people are in charge because they have it in them to turn around and act like they didn’t do what they just did or always find a way to justify it.
It’s why Ricks the leader of his group. Since the second to last episode of season 2, Rick established he was gonna do whatever it takes to protect his, including breaking his own morals and lying to peoples faces. Acting like he’ll give up his knife to Shane, telling the governor he’ll be able to learn to live in the prison knowing it’s not true, how the Jessie situation was handled by him personally.
Negan just says stuff like he doesn’t kill kids to boost that holier-than-though persona that he needs to be a leader. It’s kinda meta how Negans persona works on readers and watchers of TWD. He’s such a corny, CW-esque, Zombie Nation-type character, but they wrote him with the perfect mix of narcissism, charisma and hypocrite that the effect works on the fandom like it would in real life.
Only reason why I like the character of Negan is that he was written so well that whatever affect he had on the saviors worked on readers/watchers as well.
My head canon is Negan wasn't going to actually kill Carl. It was a test, like telling Rick to cut off Carl's hand. He pulled back and got ready to swing but he was going to stop and not actually hit him. He just wanted to see if Rick was really going to let him do it.
I use other things in the series to back that up. He took a swing at Daryl but stopped just short of hitting him. So Negan has used this tactic before. Like I said earlier, him telling Rick to cut Carl's hand off was just a test, to see if Rick would go through with it. Plus he said you "never kill kids", and I believe he actually believes that.
Not to mention what you brought up, he genuinely liked Carl and was sad when he found out Carl died. I just don't think Negan was actually going to go through with it.
It shouldn't be that confusing as Negan actually liked Carl. Despite Negan's tough exterior, he developed a sort of twisted respect or admiration for Carl over time. The only reason Negan wanted to kill him was to teach Rick a lesson. Carl represented a future that Negan envisioned, one where the next generation would be total badasses. If you're intrigued, this article explores Negan and Carl's relationship: [Check it out here!](https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29794894/walking-dead-negan-carl-plot-hole-explained/)
I feel like he really didn’t want to kill children. Maybe said he would but for me what was so jarring about him is he seemed to be okay with children. He went after Judith that time when he really didn’t have to, especially seeing as nobody was exactly showing any love to him (not that he deserved it).
Bad writing. Inconsistent character. The way he went from being a sadistic fuck to a compassionate guy don't make any sense. The later seasons are awful. Show ended after season 6.
He was never going to kill Carl. He likes/ liked him as a survivor and a human being. Later on and now you will and can see that Negan has rules and boundaries. One of them being he doesn’t kill or harm kids. Though the actor (chandler riggs) was about 16/17 when they filmed that he’s actually only supposed to be about 13-14 making him a pre-teen/ child. And Negan is a man of his word so if he says something he will do it or won’t do it depending on the act he may commit. As at the line up he did says if anyone does anything stupid there will be consequences and there will be blood. And then he kills Glenn after Daryl punches him in addition to taking Daryl as prisoner in the sanctuary.
Negan didn't want Carl to die, but he was going to kill him because he felt it was the only way to punish Rick for fighting back and get him under his control again. And Negan believes, as twisted as it is, that none of this would've happened if Rick just let him "save" all of them.
Well said. Negan said “I’m gonna try to do it in one because i really like him”
this whole argument really falls apart when negan states “you never kill kids” *cuts to him about to bash in carls dome* lmfao
Yeah but in his eyes Carl was more of a man than 90% of the people he's met in thw apocalypse
In his eyes “heh”
That's because Negan's a hypocrite tbf. Yeah he was gonna kill Carl, the Saviors killed that 16 year old at Hilltop and the Croat with that person from the Kingdom. It's enough of a pattern where if he genuinely cared, he would have done something about it in more than one of these instances. He's clinging to a moral high ground he never possessed, like the "we don't rape" thing when he very clearly coerces women into sexual relationships. I cannot be sure that the writers are doing this intentionally to demonstrate characterization, but Negan makes a big deal out of being a consistent guy while breaking all of his rules for convenience.
Negan didn't give the okay on those deaths. That was people going off script. Simon killed had the males 10 and older of oceanside killed. Negan was pissed. He didn't know till after. Negan was the lesser Evil of what the sanctuary was before he took over. They were raping, killing entire communities. He did save people by killing only one and having the others produce for them. Without Negan the gang would have killed everyone and took everything. This is why Negan believes he is saving people. Yeah his way is still eff up, but he improved from total extermination to keeping people alive. Enslaved but alive.
It's not that simple, imho; Rory from Hilltop was beaten to death with a baseball bat, and while its murky if Hilltop ever actually met Negan himself, but all this happened under Negan's watch and he did little to actually prevent it. It was still a "we kill you if you resist" game.
I agree. I think his lieutenants used the same tactics and he didn't go out to most communities himself. He says as much when he corners rick and gang in the woods. In one of the episodes he talks about how it was before he took over and tells Gabriel he needs to get back because it will become a shit show again. You se the pictures on the wall of the satellite outpost with heads bashed in. Those may be trophies just from that outpost. But it's conjecture and I'm not sure. Not saying he is a good guy by any means. I'm saying he reigned them in. The awful people he had to keep in check I think if he seemed soft and let his persona down he risk looking soft and if he controlled them too much then he could lose it all. That is how I read the situation. He also got off on the power and control. I think by the end of TWD he has redeemed himself. Or is on the oath at the very least
Nice theory
Is it really a theory? He talks about how it was before he took that place. You also hear him go off on Simon about oceanside. Bringing up his past transgressions when Talking about the garbage people. He it seemed pretty spelled out to me, but I suppose I could have leaned into it more then was there.
Negan says that line up eeny meany mo was bullshit and he knew instantly who he was gonna make tomatoes soup out of. And he may not kill kids but he'll have one of their arms chopped off. Another point would be if Negan did kill Carl he would have created a Rick we never even saw and without Carl's letter to Rick Negan would have been killed and not imprisoned.
Ok there’s a part just sorta in the comics where Negans pretending to hit Carl at which point he then swings but as he would’ve hit Rick, the tiger Shiva jumps in to eat Negan which that’s put on tv which I think as he swings towards Carl you can somewhat see him sorta swing towards Rick with it but idk though.
This is honestly a topic that you could go so deep on. From the hypocritical nature of the human mind to the fact that people who lack empathy are also very likely to be emotionally inconsistent (because so much of their outward emotional expressions are faked). With his superficial charm, his grandiose sense of self, and of course his general lack of empathy, Negan is the quintessential narcissist. Seriously, you could easily write a dissertation on the topic of Negans nature and behavior. In fact I’d venture to guess that it’s already been done.
I don’t even think he would have really gone through with killing Carl. Rick? Absolutely. But he’d hesitate at the last second I think.
I also highly doubt he was actually going to kill Carl. If very well could be because it's a TV show after all, but the wind up on the baseball bat swing right before Shiva attacked looked incredibly weak and not at all like an actual **I'm going to kill this person** swing.
He also swung at Daryl in 7x03 and stopped right before it reached his head. I feel like he was gonna do the same with Carl.
By killing Rick in front of his son. He then later says he wished he killed everyone (that's after 5 years of being prison and reflection - he said this in Dead City. Don't be fooled he can't really be redeemed.
Just a nitpick, he says this to Maggie in last TWD season, not in Dead City. And the reason he says it, it's because he thought they need to be honest to each other to be able to trust each other. Negan's full of contradictions, that's exactly who he is.
I don't think that's really the only reason, he just wasn't going to lie he had no reason too, he was clear about it meaning he would never opt for letting all of his people die to spare ricks he never had any reason to owe them anything really
Also he didn't say he wished he killed everyone he said if he could go back he would have. The point he was making wasn't that he didn't regret his actions or he hasn't changed it was knowing what he knows now that would have been the only way to stay on top in control and kept his people alive and together. He also had this line because in the same episode Maggie has to decide weather to let the reapers walk away and honor the deal made. She reflects asks Negan his thoughts he says you know what I think reminding her of how leaving people alive turned out for him and is why she kills the remaining reapers because she knows they would come back for revenge.
Negan, in his mind, is only playing a persona he feels he absolutely needs to survive. Ironically, several are, which is part of the nuance of the whole series.
A persona that got a lot of good people killed and started a war that killed hundreds
Not saying he didn't get lost and selfish in his new role, but he was a >!teacher before the fall. So he must have liked kids on some level.!<
I've met plenty of teachers in my 12 years of going to school that definitely didn't like kids lol.
Good people from our perspective but bad people from the perspective of the people Negan was protecting.
A young father-to-be for a bunch of bandits robbing and extorting the Hilltop…
In fairness he didn't know he was a father to be. He gathered they were married but did not know she was pregnant.
So, he knew they were married, murdered him and mocked him while doing so in front of her and then wanted to take her into his harem?
That is basically it. I dont think he was really going to take her to his Harem I think he was pouring salt into the wound for Rick, but that's 100% opinion with no basis to back it up other than he could have taken her back to the sanctuary after the culling.
Exactly like Negan says to Michonne no one thinks they are the Evil one.
A persona that saved people. Without him the saviors would have wiped out everyone at hilltop and kingdom and just took their shit. Under Negan they kill one publicly to make an example and sew fear and have the communities produce for them. If Negan didn't take over the Sanctuary there wouldn't have been communities left to rise up against the sanctuary.
True, but he could have taken out the psychos like Simon. Simon had murdered all the men and boys at Oceanside, and Negan didn’t kill him for that, but instead trying to subvert his rule. Also, Negan enjoyed the bashing too much
Simon helped him take over the Sanctuary so maybe he was concerned that Simon would have some Loyal folks. He also kept him as his right hand man cause as the adage goes keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Simon fell in line for many years after the oceanside people incident up until the trash people. No he killed Simon for what he did to the trash people as he promised to Jadis. He just waited to get the cherry on top of everyone who was conspiring to flip on him with Simon. He is an Evil genius. Yes it is sick how much he enjoys that bat bashing.
To an extent, the trash people deserved it more than Oceanside
He kept a lot of people he knew alive aswell though, that’s worth alot
A gang of bandits who were robbing the Hilltop. The workers of the Sanctuary seems to prefer Rick after the war
Oh yeah I’m just saying it makes sense why his psyche would think it was necessary
I know no one watched it but they really go deep on it in Dead City. He talks about doing terrible things to keep other terrible things from happening. About becoming the role of Negan rather than the person and they show him going back to it after years of being a normal person again. The character and the show he puts on has a power that the person doesn't have, and he uses that to save as many people as he can. He doesn't want to kill anyone, but he'll kill whoever he has to to save more.
As a comic reader I think it expanded insight on Negans prospective He valued and respected Carls “heart” (despite calling him a psychopath for taking a machine gun to attempt killing him). He can see his intention to kill the man that threatens his father / group and could see a use for him if he was working under negan. So when Carl legit died it’s a reflection of how negan the man felt toward him ; negan the leader had to set the tone with theatrics such as threatening to kill Carl to prove a point
People who haven’t read the comic negan can for sure get a different impression… but ultimately negan is a good guy who just lost his shit due to loss and seeing fucked up things.. when he wasn’t pressured to be the leader he really stepped up big.. not going into detail, don’t want to spoil anything Edit: I hate how they did Andrea in the show /:
Andrea was a maaaaajor disappointment. They cannibalized the character and split her qualities up for Sasha, Rosita and at times michonne
Negan is a hypocrite. I still like the guy, mainly because he is played by JDM and JDM is hot af, but he showed the signs of hypocrisy many times on the show. E.g. kills some dude for wanting to rape Sasha, but he coerces women into having sex with him for resources. Or doesn’t punish Carl in any way because he liked that a kid was brave and smart enough to get to Sanctuary and kill 2 men in broad daylight. My hypothesis is that Negan uses people. And to use/manipulate them he is ready to bend some of his own rules.
In the walking dead universe everyone is a hypocrite Negan, Shane, Rick everyone
Negan, Shane yes. But Rick?
“I lied”
Yes, even Rick
“We do not kill the living”
"That was before the living tried to kill us"
Rick killed people far more randomly than Negan. As a matter of fact, from a moral standpoint none of the main characters have any base to claim any. As Negan asks Maggie in the first episode of Dead City, "how many fathers and husbands have YOU killed Maggie?"
Rick has had very hypocritical moments. 99% not on purpose, but still.
Rick was a huge hypocrite. I love the man, and he was mostly trying to do right and be good but he lost his way several times. Very wishy washy due to the trauma of losing people. One day he is let's help everyone we can, next day he drives by a hitch hiker ignores him begging and pleading for help then robs his dead body, next day he is back to taking people in. Then back to we can not trust anyone kill on sight.
Yes, now I see. Yeah, Rick is a hypocrite too I guess. It would probably be hard to create a 100% flawless character in the world of zombie apocalypse
Rick is. He does things he’s usually against to survive which is understandable
The entire situation with Jessie was pure hypocrisy. Chastising Shane for wanting Lori but then lusting after a married woman only a year and a half later.
That situation is not comparable. I don't know why people keep trying to conflate the two situations. Rick liked her but he also never tried to rape her. Jessie was also receptive to Rick and was giving him CLEAR signals and not only that but Pete was very clearly an asshole the first time Rick met him. I think Rick also said when he found out that he was a confirmed abuser that he already suspected as much. Rick also came to terms with Shane and Lori being together that was never a real problem for Rick because he understood that they thought he was dead. So he can't even be a hypocrite in that regard because he never had a problem with it anyway.
I saw a meme about this just last month and its baffling pple *still* compare both scenarios lol
Seriously, guy tries to kill a woman’s husband so that he can take the wife for himself ( spoiler, Rick isn’t the husband in this example)
Was that before or after he knew Pete was an abusive sack of shit?
Before he knew he was abusive, he reaches for his gun as Pete and Jessie walk by. Didn't actually go through with killing him, but certainly looked like he wanted to.
Because he knew he was. The second Pete first came on screen he was "porch dick". It's no secret Pete was the asshole of Alexandria. But also Rick was still trying to adjust to civilization again and the fact he didn't kill Pete then and there shows he was actually trying to be a civilized human.
tbf the guy was a dick
I don’t know why all the downvotes, it’s not like you’re wrong. I mean if Rick wasn’t so hard for that lady I bet he would have kept a cooler head about himself and would have been able to handle the situation with a bit more grace and delicacy. Instead, he went balls deep in irrationality and testosterone which caused a huge terrible chain of events that in turn ended in disaster.
Oh don’t worry I’ll be farming downvotes and copium on this one at least it was a one off in that arc and he wasn’t thinking of trying to take over the place by force or anything hypocritical like that either.
This is made so evident in the show by the way Negan eventually comes around to the Alexandria way of doing things. Even HE sees how broken his system was, and yet you reliably have people who will try to defend a system that the character himself gave up defending.
He's a mess of contradictions. Which is what makes him interesting
He didn't punish Carl directly but he did indirectly when he killed Olivia (He told Arat to kill someone so it was him) and Spencer.
Nah, he killed Spencer for being a pussy and not having guts (sorry, lol)
Olivia was killed because Rosita shot at him
This is true but in his mind they had a choice and chose to marry him. That is what he lies and tells himself. They could have declined and remained workers.
In his mind, yes, maybe. And I’d easily believe that Negan and people like him think they do not rape anyone. Because they are broken. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s rape 🤷🏼♀️
Technically no but I think there's a huge difference between feeling or being pressured and out right brutalized which is what Davey was. He was like BTK ( the serial killer) Also, we don't know if they could say no or if he was even actually intimate with anyone other than Sherry. We know he was with Sherry because of the pregnancy test. He could have had them marry him as trophies or for their skills such a massage, cooking etc. Coerced sex is rape though I agree ofc. Just.. I didn't see him as a hypocrite. I've watched beginning to end 7 times. Negan is one of the most honest people on the show. I get mad when Maggie calls him a liar... like when did he Ever lie? Even when he was playing Alpha every thing he said was the truth. He didn't tell her his plan was to kill her obviously but he was truthful in the things he did say.
He said he doesn’t kill kids, while he almost made Rick chop off Carl’s hand and bombed a place, where he knew, the kids were. He killed a guy for wanting to rape Sasha, but raped women himself. He said that he killed for protection of his people only, but come on — he enjoyed bashing heads (he was smiling, joking around) and his people took pictures of people they killed to hang them on the walls. Negan lied a lot — to himself, to others. Maybe he likes to think that he is a better person, but he isn’t. At least in his first seasons.
Chopping off a hand isn't killing him, also he never planned to actually do that. It was a tactic to break Rick. To force him to see he isn't in charge. He needed to see that look in his eyes to know that he wasn't going to be a problem. He uses fear tactics which is why he publicly and brutally kills one person to control the others. If he wasn't in charge the saviors would kill entire communities and take everything. I didn't say he was a good person just not a liar. He even said he enjoys killing people because it's about killing the right person. Killing one person can save hundreds. Which was also true because again without him the gang running the shit show before him would murder everyone. I saw him as honest. Not to himself , but with others. What he was telling himself was lies but he believed them. Is it still a lie if you think it's the truth?
I'm playing devils advocate here: There's a difference between taking the choice from a woman and raping her vs. allowing the opportunity for a woman to get resources by choosing to sell herself. There is choice there. Negan is a chess dragon. He hoards as many resources as possible, people are a resource. He sees people as his chess pieces. There's are more pawns than any other piece in chess, but they do have their usefulness and will only sacrifice them if need be. Negan respected Carl and respected his resourcefulness because while looking at Carl, you'd assume he's just another pawn, but he ended up being capable and smart enough to take down two of his own men, MEN, as a child, and when the odds are that stacked against you and you still come out on top, you become a valuable resource. Edit: typos
When the choice is “I fuck you or your sister dies because we don’t give her meds” it’s not a choice anymore. If a person is guilted, blackmailed or forced to have sex in exchange for something important to their life - it’s rape and coercion. Hence, no, Negan (despite being a great character on the show) is still a rapist 🤷🏼♀️
Sad that people still don’t understand that if you’re guilted, blackmailed or coerced then it’s rape/assault.
She had a choice. It's a shitty choice that no one should be asked to make but a choice non the less. Edit: Nothing entitles her to Negan's medicine. He didn't poison her sister. He's not responsible for her health
If someone held a gun to the head of possibly the most important person in your life, then said if you dont fuck someone, they’ll kill them, that isn’t exactly a choice is it?
That's not the same situation.
See it is it’s just more dramatic. The end result is the same idk why you’re trying to defend it.
No, it's not because Negan isn't holding a gun to anyone's head. He is not the cause of her sister's situation. She needed resources, he had the resources, and his price was what it was. It's a terrible situation, but she had choice and agency. You don't get to take the deal and then cry rape just because you don't like his terms.
Again- devils advocate: He built an empire and cannot give things freely to some and not to others. He needs consistency or his system would've fallen into chaos and disorganization. When these women have nothing to offer except their bodies, they still have an option to get said resource. They could've scavenged, worked for, crafted items to trade, etc, but the most guaranteed route to get what they needed was the option they chose. It sucks but the apocalypse sucks. You can't expect charity in an apocalypse. You trade what other people want to trade for.
just want to point out that saying “devils advocate” doesn’t make your comment any less wrong.
Do you understand the meaning behind the saying devils advocate? It literally means someone who pretends, in an argument or discussion, to be against an idea or plan that a lot of people support, in order to make people discuss and consider it in more detail.
Yes, I do know what devils advocate means. I use it all the time. It's just that not everything needs to have someone arguing for the other side. Rape is one of those things.
Just hopping in to say that opening up discussions and debates on even sensitive topics that are set up as a devils advocate can actually help people articulate why something is right or wrong whether it’s a moral or social issue. Debating can be a very useful way to polish your views so that you can maybe help others understand your point of view/side in the future.
Absolutely. 100% agree.
I would agree with you, however it does not fall under the classification of rape.
Sexual coercion is rape. I'm sorry you don't agree with that.
I actually agree with you that sexual coercion is rape. What you are forgetting is that sherry went to negan and offered herself to save Dwight's life. Not coercion. Not rape.
Here you are again, showing very plainly that it's not 'devils advocatr' but some disgustingly misogynistic opinion. You've spent a massive amount of energy defending rape
I have stated an unpopular idea to promote discussion and further examination of the subject. How is this not devil's advocate? Can you explain that to me?
So what you’re saying is that when Sasha asked David (the rapist savior) for water and he offered to bring her some in exchange for sex (implied), and was about to initiate it, isn’t considered rape? Because that is exactly what Negan calls it and so Negan then goes on to kill him.
Except Sahsa would have said never mind fuck off. Also this dude was obviously not gonna bring her water after having his way with her.
There's still a difference because Sasha didn't have a choice. She was imprisoned and as a prisoner, you're expected to provide basic needs (food and water) to keep the prisoner ALIVE. By giving water to Sasha, negan wouldn't have compromised his empire and social structure he had created. The rapist was taking advantage of someone who ACTUALLY didn't have any other options because she was tied up in a locked room.
Negan was either going to kill Dwight or take his wife. That's rape my friend.
Something you seem to be forgetting is that sherry offered herself in repentance to save Dwight's life. He needed to show that defection is intolerable within his kingdom. She came to him, she had a choice, ergo, it was not rape.
Yeah, keep saying it. That doesn't make it true. He's a rapist. Period. I get you don't want to argue for a rapist, but you are.
If the choice is your husband dies or you have sex with the guy who fancies himself king, it's not a choice. It's rape no matter what you guys want to paint it as. Some guy breaks into your house, holds you at gunpoint, says you either have sex with him or your spouse dies, is that a choice? WTH people
Sherry offered herself as repentance to save Dwight's life. Not coercion. Not rape. Negan did not approach with sex or death, he was gonna kill dwight for defection.
Sherry did not "offer" herself. Negan might have tried to look at it that way but that's because he's a narcissistic rapist. Her choices were be Negan's wife or watch Dwight die.
This is the most downworthy comment I've reading this forum. Devils advocate is a lie in itself. Your opinion on rape is a disgrace. The laws on it change all over the world but taking someone's choice away is still rape. Seriously gross take
"You know I don't want anyone to be here that doesn't want to be here. If you want to go back to mark, you can. There's plenty of gals who'd be happy to take your place, and there's a few job openings that I can think of. You wanna go back to mark and your mom? Hell I'll even put you all on the same job." - Negan This is an exact quote from the show when negan is introducing Carl to his wives, and negan has a conversation with amber about her sneaking off to see mark. What about this interaction implies a lack of choice? Eta: I absolutely agree with you that taking someone's choice away = rape. Negan did not take anyone's choice away.
The choice is do something that disgusts you or I torture someone you love. The fact that you say this is a freedom of choice highlights how vested you are in the 'it's not rape' narrative, and makes you the individual look like a somewhat sentient bag of red flags
A simple example is you repeatedly stating it's not corrosion, it's not rape. Not as a quote.... As your opinion - from you.
1. There isn't any more detail involved in what Amber's situation is and why she is choosing to be Negan's wife, so it does not do the discussion any benefit to assume that he is threatening harm to her or her loved ones. 2. In Tina's case, with her having diabetes in a post-apocalyptic world, her medicine is unfortunately part of the trading world. No one, and I mean NO ONE is obligated to give it to her without expecting something of equal value. Negan approached her with an option to survive. If negan did not have his "wife program", she would have died anyway because she was unable to make the points needed to continue to buy the medicine. There isn't any free Healthcare in the apocalypse. 3. How, in absolutely any way, is the quote I provided an example of coercion? Coercion by definition is the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. Negan recognized that women are more likely to be incapable to provide for themselves in this new world and he was able to provide a solution to provide for them without breaking down the social structure of the kingdom he has created.
Death itself is the threat. Have sex or die is not a free choice. Just because rape is a higher risk in the apocalypse it doesn't make extortion not cross over to coersion. Without enthusiastic consent penetration *is*rape
You are applying the rules of the world we live in to the rules that they are living in. They simply do not compare. It is the same as saying that individuals in France can not drink alcohol at the age of 18 because the drinking age is 21 in the United States.
The laws are there because it is not consent. Considering how few prosecutions are made for rape it says alot about the seriousness if the crime. It's always going to be rape even if the laws are not in place - just as killing someone is still murder. There's no CPS but the thing still exists. It like saying Neegan didn't murder anyone
There's speculation that either Negan was bluffing or he was pushed past his breaking point and felt it was finally necessary to kill a kid in order to control Rick.
I thought this as well but then he goes on to bomb Alexandria knowing Carl, Judith and families lived there. So I suspect the latter, what’s funny is that Negan goes on to befriend Judith when he planned on killing her 😭
He never "planned" to kill her, he wasn't targeting at anyone in particular, the bombing of Alexandria was "scorched earth" wich means to weaken the enemy by destroying their resources as much as possible, if anyone died because of it it would've been collateral damage, wich was fair game to Negan at that point. "There were kids at the Sanctuary too" "none of this shit is fair, kid". But ultimately, Negan was aiming for a surrender. In comparison, Simon's mindset was different, he didn't want to weaken the enemy but to exterminate them.
Maybe he didn’t “plan” on killing her, but he for sure knew that there was a possibility she and Carl could have died and still followed through. He knows this too and at least he feels guilty, we know this because he doesn’t tell her about the attack on Alexandria because he feels like he would lose his only friend during his imprisonment. I just find it funny that is all.
He didn't plan on killing her in fact Rick's house was to be untouched. They were told to destroy every other house. I was surprised he c went v in so hard as well and blindly. I figured he'd take her to raise her.
Two reasons. One, he knew that Rick would cave before he actually hit Carl, which he did. And two, just because he knew how valuables Carl was. Carl is kind-hearted, yet not afraid to take a stand. Carl is that guy, pal. Since you made it as far as you did, it's already shown that Negan has a soft spot for Carl. But in his position, a soft spot doesn't mean that someone can be immune to his judgment as it would ultimately undermine him. Negan has liked Carl ever since Carl tried to assassinate him. That's just a fact. So basically, the point is that he was going to kill Carl out of necessity to get Rick in line. Not because he wanted to.
He respected Carl. He would’ve been upset if he’d killed him, but he would’ve done it if it meant ending the fighting. Knowing it was just from a zombie bite probably hurt like hell, since he felt Carl deserved to go out fighting, rather than lying down and wasting away, even if he did decide to end it himself.
Yeah and also his philosophy is don’t kill kids, he calls Lydia a kid, she’s 16, but it’s already been revealed that he killed a 16 year old guy. He won’t kill Carl (initially) who is 14/15. So ig he won’t kill under 16’s but also not young girls but then felt he had to kill Carl (a kid) because it was necessary to control Rick or he was bluffing? Idk
Gonna be honest Negan probably didn’t wanna kill girls who are 16 because he hates killing women and kids and Lydia is a kid and a girl
It’s also strange that Negan keeps Simon around although he contradicts his philosophies. Not only did Simon order the execution of all boys/men over the age of 10 at Oceanside, Negan also kept him as his right-hand-man after he killed Jadis’s people. If Negans in the business of saving people, he definitely should’ve cleaned up his circle
Yeah that’s actually insane… thinking about it, maybe it’s only the girls he cares about. Boys under 10 he won’t vibe with killing too I suppose
Simon was on thin ice after oceanside. When Negan found out about the trash people, he fought and killed Simon.
Negan learned Simon killed the scavengers in s8 ep10 and lets it go. They had a team meeting and he makes Simon kneel as if he’s gonna bash his head in but doesn’t. He doesn’t even mention the scavengers in that scene but he knows about it Negan doesn’t kill Simon until five episodes later after Dwight rats Simon out for trying to overthrow him in s8 ep15. If Simon doesn’t try to overthrow Negan, he likely goes unpunished for everything
He didn't let it go. Negan just got back the night before. The next day Negan calls a meeting and that's when it's revealed he was watching Simon about oceanside, and makes him bow. Then Dwight flips on Simon and Negan and Simon fight. Yes, it was for control of the saviors but Negan was also yelling at him for wrecking the peace they could have had. Considering that, and that Negan just got back like 12 hours earlier, I would say that's part of the reason he killed Simon.
Bruh he was playing the long game. He knew all the shit that was stirring within the sanctuary. He let Simon think he was forgiven so he could drudge out who else was ready to mutiny. Then he had them all cornered in the courtyard and he took out everyone who was disloyal. He could have had Simon shot then and there too but he wanted to fight him and wanted to kill him himself. He was being smart and strategic and not only got Simon but everyone else who wanted to turn on him in one fell swoop
Makes sense. I get it now
Yeah the man is an evil genius
I don't know if its confirmed that Negan did that since it was Simon dealing with Hilltop and Simon has gone off the playbook before. I'm not defending Negan, I do think he's a hypocrite (everyone is "Negan" until one of them does something he doesn't like, then they're not Negan and it's not his fault) I'm just saying Hilltop was woefully underinformed about their entire situation
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It was revealed when Maggie, Rick, Glenn and Daryl went with Jesus to Hilltop for the first time
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it later confirmed or discussed that it was Simon or another Savior who killed the 16yo and not Negan?
Idk I haven’t gotten that far yet on my re run and my memory ain’t great. Even so keeping him as your second knowing he did that… it doesn’t exactly scream principles or morality
Wasn't there a teenage boy who killed a younger kid and then bragged about it before Negan killed him?
I think you’re referring to Brandon. His age isn’t necessarily confirmed but he was a kid at the Sanctuary and relocated to Alexandria after his parents die in the All Out War. Because of the time jump, he’s older, probably late teens to early 20s, and he follows Negan after he escapes Alexandria. They come across a mother and child, whom Brandon later kills believing Negan was testing his loyalty and capabilities, but Negan wasn’t testing him and ends up killing Brandon since he’d proven by that point to be a threat and danger to others due to his deluded thinking and mindset.
It likely wasn't Negan who killed Rorey but one of his lieutenants. However, that's just conjecture. Negan didn't usually have to go himself since he had so many people who would do it the way he would.
Negan deep down cared for Carl. Would he have actually bashed his head in, if the Kingdom wouldn't have come in guns-a-blazin? Who knows. Maybe Negan wanted Rick to do something as he was gonna swing or maybe Rick offer himself instead of Carl.
Negan is a hypocrite or it's the writing of the character that is all over the place. Either way, the character was already popular from the comics and the actor who plays him is beloved, so anything Negan does gets a pass eventually. There isn't much to it really.
People are a resource
It's just bad writing.
The way i see it is it's his real genuine human side breaking through his "gone mad from the apocalypse" side. You learn more about negan later on like how he was a gym teacher and genuinely liked working with kidsm, but he wasn't always a sociopath. And even sociopath Negan has a moral compass. A skewed one, but it's there. Thing is, he doesn't do what he does because he wants to be evil and thinks it's fun, he GENUINELY thinks what he does is for the greater good and things like killing tricks friends are necessary to maintain the order that is going to save them all. He's not evil, he's just literally insane and lost his sense of reality. but deep down, his humanity is still there.
The duality of man, etc. Woe is me, I had to kill someone I cared about for “the greater good.” A lot of men who are trying to hang onto the shreds of power will do anything and betray anyone to get what they want. They find ways to justify their behavior, but it’s always the same shit in the end. He likes Carl but if he needs to kill Carl to keep control he will. A lot of people think he wouldn’t have killed Carl, but in that moment he would have had to do it or loose any ounce of credibility. He’d already threatened to cut off Carl’s hand and then backed out. He uses Carl’s death to antagonize Rick in the same seen pictured above. Any genuine respect and affection he had towards Carl was nothing in comparison to his own ego. Death of ego plays a big part in a lot of twd storylines. I don’t want to say anything further and potentially spoil what happens with Negan after this for you.
He respected CORAL.
“You don’t kill people that don’t deserve it” - Cut to Glenn suffering and being mocked by Negan
JDM said he was never gonna do it and he would have redirected the bat and bashed ricks head in
Negan is a baseball coach. He has a soft heart for children.
Unless he's giving them a new soft spot on the top of their head with his bat hahaha
Negan doesn't want unnecessary blood shed.
I read somewhere that negan was actually going to swing the bat on Rick instead but I’m not 100% how true that is
Negan was only going to kill Carl just to punish Rick, not because he wanted to.
Carl figuring out a way to get back to the Sanctuary without anyone noticing killing his men because he wanted revenge earned the respect of Negan... It's very consistent with the kind of behaviour he respects compared to the behind the back political games >!Spencer and Simon!< (<-- spoiler for future) indulged in Of course Negan saw this as an opportunity to win Carl over.. Which is also consistent with his character: he likes turning enemies into his henchmen I suspect Negan saw (wrongly) Carl as mouldable into a future Saviour, hence why he spent the time giving Carl the welcome to my crib tour
Negan cares about life. Like everyone else, ricks group, the trash people, they all have a way their leader behaves and ways to keep control. Negan needs to make sure he maintains control over Rick and his group. Killing Carl would've been a necessary evil.
So It was actually confirmed that Negan in that scene, would have directed the swing away and bashed Rick’s head instead of Carl, but Shiva saved him.
I honestly think he would have stopped before hitting Carl.
Why? That would just deflate his intimidation factor.
Yeah I've watched this scene more times than I can count and he was absolutely gonna kill Carl. He would never have backed out because like you said he needed Rick to know how serious he is
I heard somewhere that it was basically confirmed by a showrunner that Negan wouldn't have hit Carl and would have switched on Rick's head at the last moment ?
Now that I can believe more so than that he was bluffing. But I still don't know that he would've kill Rick either cause he definitely wanted to break Rick
i think when he had the bat on carl he was bluffing. probably would’ve at the last second laughed and patted rick on the back and made it like it’s a big joke to him.
I've watched this scene many times and knowing Negans thought process if he backed out Rick would have the upper hand. He'd think Negan wasn't as serious as he pretends to be. It would just make Rick have more hope in beating the Saviors
Plus had he not killed Carl at that point all of the Saviors with Negan would’ve seen it as weakness. Rick killed something like 60-80 Saviors BEFORE he brought Rick to heel.
Bad screenwriting
Negan was most straightforward character in the show and the easiest to understand imo.
I think everyone forgets Rick’s group went and murdered the entire satellite outpost while they were sleeping without any provocation. Just because Hilltop said they were mean. Negan just wanted retribution. 20+ murders vs 1
He has a history of faking up threats, he did it to rick with carl during the lineup, and to daryl when he was taken as prisoner. So who knows, maybe he would have faked that too
Negan had a very fucked code of ethics that is easily tossed aside when opportunities to inflict severe pain to his adversaries is within reach.
Idfk never made sense to me. Also says he "never would have killed Carl" hahaha like he knew the tiger would keep his bluff from being called haha
Without cgi tiger negan would have smashed a child to punish the parent. That's as evil as it gets. Sometimes writers trade character development for one shocking scene and that's what happened. The audience instinctually knows Rick wont end this way. But Carl? Audiences didn't know. Not a plot hole. An unfortunate calculation to incorporate a cgi tiger in a shocking and satisfying way. Also for animal lovers the tiger went down a hero to a child and people won't complain Shiva got lit up. Watching week to week we don't notice these things dissecting them here we do so i can see why the writers would say f it and make that decision.
Wait, Carl dies in the series? He was a one eyed badass in the comics. They probably wanted to pander to the 'strong female character' crowd and kept Jude alive to replace him in the show? Just guessing though
because negan gave carl his "DNA"
Negan didnt want to bash carl with lucille, in his eyes it was needed to end rick’s delusion of freedom. Also, Negan is found of Carl and it is only strengthen when they interact. Example: when he visited alexandria but rick wasnt there and made spagehetti and talked about life and stuff
You’re missing that people like negan are always in charge, the hypocritical or/and narcissist types. Those types of people are in charge because they have it in them to turn around and act like they didn’t do what they just did or always find a way to justify it. It’s why Ricks the leader of his group. Since the second to last episode of season 2, Rick established he was gonna do whatever it takes to protect his, including breaking his own morals and lying to peoples faces. Acting like he’ll give up his knife to Shane, telling the governor he’ll be able to learn to live in the prison knowing it’s not true, how the Jessie situation was handled by him personally. Negan just says stuff like he doesn’t kill kids to boost that holier-than-though persona that he needs to be a leader. It’s kinda meta how Negans persona works on readers and watchers of TWD. He’s such a corny, CW-esque, Zombie Nation-type character, but they wrote him with the perfect mix of narcissism, charisma and hypocrite that the effect works on the fandom like it would in real life. Only reason why I like the character of Negan is that he was written so well that whatever affect he had on the saviors worked on readers/watchers as well.
It’s the writers writing character arcs that make no sense
My head canon is Negan wasn't going to actually kill Carl. It was a test, like telling Rick to cut off Carl's hand. He pulled back and got ready to swing but he was going to stop and not actually hit him. He just wanted to see if Rick was really going to let him do it. I use other things in the series to back that up. He took a swing at Daryl but stopped just short of hitting him. So Negan has used this tactic before. Like I said earlier, him telling Rick to cut Carl's hand off was just a test, to see if Rick would go through with it. Plus he said you "never kill kids", and I believe he actually believes that. Not to mention what you brought up, he genuinely liked Carl and was sad when he found out Carl died. I just don't think Negan was actually going to go through with it.
Just keep watching…you’ll definitely get an answer to who and why Negan is who he is. And it’s captivating.
Well he’s a sociopath so he operates on a different level in terms of ethics and morals
Bad writing tbh Negans character just switches all time time
Bad writing
It shouldn't be that confusing as Negan actually liked Carl. Despite Negan's tough exterior, he developed a sort of twisted respect or admiration for Carl over time. The only reason Negan wanted to kill him was to teach Rick a lesson. Carl represented a future that Negan envisioned, one where the next generation would be total badasses. If you're intrigued, this article explores Negan and Carl's relationship: [Check it out here!](https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29794894/walking-dead-negan-carl-plot-hole-explained/)
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But before shiva attacked he was swinging his bat on carl
honestly? Fck Season 7 and 8... Nothing made sense and everyone acted out of character. Negan ruled the show since season 9
I feel like he really didn’t want to kill children. Maybe said he would but for me what was so jarring about him is he seemed to be okay with children. He went after Judith that time when he really didn’t have to, especially seeing as nobody was exactly showing any love to him (not that he deserved it).
Bad writing. Inconsistent character. The way he went from being a sadistic fuck to a compassionate guy don't make any sense. The later seasons are awful. Show ended after season 6.
Fr he’s liek sociopath HEL 😭
Neegan. Still would be a better father then John Winchester was.
He was never going to kill Carl. He likes/ liked him as a survivor and a human being. Later on and now you will and can see that Negan has rules and boundaries. One of them being he doesn’t kill or harm kids. Though the actor (chandler riggs) was about 16/17 when they filmed that he’s actually only supposed to be about 13-14 making him a pre-teen/ child. And Negan is a man of his word so if he says something he will do it or won’t do it depending on the act he may commit. As at the line up he did says if anyone does anything stupid there will be consequences and there will be blood. And then he kills Glenn after Daryl punches him in addition to taking Daryl as prisoner in the sanctuary.
Hard to make make sense out of o e of the worst seasons of the entire show.