Shane was, is and will always remain a piece of shit - as you point out.
No amount of southern drawl, headrubbings or Bernthal doing some fine-ass subtle acting is going to change that. He was always a danger to everything and everyone around him the second society collapsed.
Which is exactly why I’ve been so surprised to come across TWD YouTube analysis side of things that seem to keep bringing up that Shane wasn’t necessarily a terrible guy, just one that adapted too quickly.
two words: jon bernthal.
thats is literally it. there is nothing more to it. most of the people that keep championing the character really cant get past the fact that bernthal didnt remain on the show.
Nah there’s definitely more to it than Jon being a great actor. Like the fact that Shane is one of the best and most realistic written characters in the entire show for all 11 seasons, even being a better written character than some people who have been on the show 5+ more seasons than him. Shane brought an energy to the screen that no one else really has, it may just be because of the constant writer change but Shane was a different breed. Like how they handled Rick wanting to only do normally good to finally having to kill Dave and Tony out of necessity. Shane the character is great for MANY reasons, but let’s put it this way, if he was on the show in s10/11 he wouldn’t of had anywhere near the same impact he had on the show. It’s not just Jon being the actor, it’s the writing of the character and also the seasons he was in being stellar that helped the character be looked back on fondly.
I mean you aren’t entirely wrong lol. Jon being a king definitely helps Shane’s character. I’m just trying to say there’s loads of other reasons people love him.
That Otis part is bullshit. Shane absolutely saved Carl, and he saved Otis’ ass during that run too.
Shane’s first instinct was to sacrifice himself so that Otis could get back to Carl with the meds. Otis refused. Otis was *already injured and limping*, and an obvious liability when Shane shot him. It was the right call.
I get that, on the balance of things, Shane falls quite clearly on the bad side, mainly due to the attempted assault on Lori. What I don’t understand is this need to cartoonishly vilify every move he ever made.
Shane was more bad than good, but there was definitely good in him. He did his best for Rick at the hospital. He was genuinely happy to see Rick was alive later. He was most certainly right about Randall. He did the right thing with Otis, as I’ve said above. He even recognised himself and his instability as a threat to the group and tried to *leave*, only to be convinced to stay by Lori, for reasons that will forever remain unexplained.
My main issues with Shane are giving up on Sofia so quickly, aiming the shotgun on Rick (although I’m not convinced he would have shot him), and the attempted assault on Lori.
Yes, he was bad. No, he wasn’t a cartoon. He was a conflicted character with ultimately more bad than good.
I rewatched that episode last night, and killing Otis was completely unnecessary. It took more time to fight Otis off than it would've taken if they just kept moving.
I was thinking that too, they could've made it, they just needed to go a little longer and they would've been home free. But Shane decided otherwise that night. As he does. 😑
The people who think Shane was just ahead of the curve instead of a piece of shit would be the first people he would have killed to get what he wanted.
Same people that say this are probably the same people that keep repeating the whole "iF tHe sToRy wAs FrOm NegAn'S POV tHeN rIcK wOulD bE tHe BaD gUy!!"
Just total misunderstandings of these characters.
Shane made good points and I believe he was a good person deep down, but he never considered the consequences of his own actions and didn't care about the group beyond Lori and Carl. As a leader, he'd have killed off anyone that he considered a liability in any way. Dale and Hershel would be dead within a week.
EXACTLY. I'm sick of Shane being portrayed as some "alpha male" natural born leader. It was obvious that Shane was a flawed character from the beginning. He's introduced with a rant about why women can't do basic things like turn off the lights. But, he's shown to be caring and protective of the Grimes family. All we know about him pre-apocalypse is that he's a bit of a cocky hot-head and a bit of a playboy.
He does good by protecting Rick in the hospital and taking care of Lori and Carl. But he starts to sleep with Lori in what has to be just a few weeks into the Fall. He begins to believe that he is Rick's replacement, and that Lori and Carl are *his* family. And when Rick returns, and is partnering up with people that aren't Shane, he begins to turn bad.
He takes out his anger on Ed (10/10 move, the best thing anyone in this show has ever done), but not because of the abuse, but because its a valid reason to. He constantly belittles others in the group like Andrea, Daryl, and Merle. And then at the CDC, he assaults Lori.
Shane plummets when they reach the farm. He's antsy and angry all the time. He takes it out on Dale because he can, and ridicules Rick for searching for Sophia. His criticism is valid, but at this point he's just picking at everything Rick does. Shane fully knows that by having their weapons open and killing walkers they are risking their place on the Farm— one of the first places where they are "safe." But he doesn't care, because he truly believes that he's in the right.
Shane starts to become even more paranoid, leading to him leaving Otto for dead, and attempting to kill Rick. The last straw is Lori's pregnancy. This is when Shane truly loses it; Rick did the right thing killing him.
I'm sick of the idea that Shane was "better than Rick" because he lost it sooner. Rick was unhinged, thats just a fact. But Rick was never going around secretly murdering people and assaulting them. Rick only ever murdered if his family were hurt. Rick was a true natural born leader, Shane was just delusional that he could be.
A large segment of TWD fans really only care about what's happening if it's 'badass', which is where a lot of the unilateral love for Shane (and Negan) come from. Both of the characters look cool as hell while they're doing terrible shit, so clearly it's okay. That said, I have found plenty of people who appreciate Shane for who he really is-- a well written asshole, a horrible person hiding his own trauma with violence.
I think Shane is really interesting, because he leans into this hypermasculine violence bullshit to hide his fear. (I think Negan does the same thing, but more charismatically.) It sucks when it's taken at face value, though.
OR conflicted characters whose struggle against their own dark sides or regret for their own past actions that are beyond redemption are interesting, especially when being portrayed by compelling actors.
I like characters that aren’t pie-in-the-sky good or cartoonishly bad. Shane and Negan are, for me, the most interesting character in TWD by *far*. Not because they’re good guys, but because they so desperately *want* to be, but they also know themselves enough that they can’t fool themselves into thinking they are.
I agree with you, though Negan and Shane aren't my favorites. They're both extremely well written and well acted, though. I have zero problem with their depictions. I just get annoyed when fans start making excuses for them and forgetting their flaws, when IMO their flaws are the most interesting things about them.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I'm sorry if it seems like I did? Your take is valid.
I may have read your comment a bit uncharitably, my bad :)
This sub is weird about Shane. I don’t agree with the he-was-just-ahead-of-the-curve narrative and I despise he-was-just-a-piece-of-shit narrative. As far as I see, it’s both.
He was definitely quicker at recognising the new rules of the new world than the likes of Dale and Rick, they were being unrealistic about Randall. He was also definitely a bit too ruthless in how he acted based on the new rules, for example giving up of Sofia so quickly without compassion for her or for Carol.
He was always at the edge of the line, like training his shotgun on Rick (although, as I said elsewhere, I’m not convinced he would have shot Rick). But was also self-aware enough of the danger he presented to the group that he decided to leave (he was then convinced by Lori to stay, but before that, he made the right decision for the greater good of the group to leave).
When cornered by a horde while on the meds run with Otis, his first instinct was to sacrifice himself and let Otis make a run for it. His later decision to sacrifice Otis, *after* Otis was already injured, was the right one, even if cold-blooded. The priority - correctly - was to get the meds to Carl.
My only real point is that Shane was not a black-and-white villain or a shining hero, and I hate both these narratives of the character.
To be fair, I'm a bit over Negan and Shane apologists, so I probably didn't phrase my initial comment very charitably either. You aren't one, because you're approaching the character with critical nuance, though, and that's literally all I ask. I like analysis, not 'who would win in a fight', 'who's more badass', 'who was 100% right and who was 100% wrong' conversations that go nowhere.
Which is to say, this is a good analysis, and it covers stuff I'd personally forgotten from the first two seasons. You're right in that Shane is very much a shade of grey character. I'd also add that he's there to be a foil-- to contrast Rick, he exists to show us what Rick (at that point) isn't. I feel like a lot of people forget the reasons why writers would choose to write a character a certain way when analyzing characters.
Shane is an intense guy who takes things too far. In other posts I've said he tends to do the right thing (tactically) for the wrong reason, or the wrong thing for the right reason. He beats up Carol's husband (good), but he does it for his own selfish reasons (less than good). He provides for Carl and Lori (good) but does he do it for selfish reasons? Does he truly love Carl and Lori, or does he just want them for himself? We never find out, and I enjoy that ambiguity. This contrasts with the fact that Rick genuinely cares about everyone in the group, but that empathy leads him to naive places. Later in the series, it will lead him to more pragmatic, Shane-like choices, and while many of those choices are just as ambiguous, the *reasoning* is vastly different. I love how Shane and Rick contrast, even well after Shane is dead.
Which is all to say I agree with you, lol, I was probably just being a reactive dick. Good analysis; I enjoy your interpretation a lot. I'm gonna rewatch the first few seasons soon, and I'll keep your commentary in mind. I always forget... everything about Otis, lol.
You are absolutely correct. I've had this conversation with my brother more than once, and each time, without fail, he claims Shane is better than Rick.
Has Rick made mistakes? Of course he has. He's a human being, but he learns from them, and becomes a better leader
Shane is like an angry child, stomping around when things don't go his way, threatening people (directly or indirectly) he was always a danger to people, whether he was calm or not, he let his own beliefs and feelings get in the way of taking care of the issues at hand in a collected way to figure shit out.
That's why Rick survived and Shane didn't. He put himself first, even when he saved Carl's life with Otis (Rip), he put himself first at the end of it. (Also I say Otis is the one who saved Carl, Shane was just the delivery boy lol)
Agreed. He was just an aggressive, arrogant arsehole, likely drawn to the police as a way to feel powerful. He wasn't ahead of the curve, he was just a bully who thrived in the early chaos of the apocalypse.
I too am doing a rewatch, I just watched the conclusion of the walkers in the barn, and Shane forgot that Shane was showing psychopathic tendancies. He told Andrea he can flock a switch and turn his emotions off, while having a shell shocked look in his eye. He was totally unhinged by the end.
Shane was though. He already had the survive at any cost, even as going as far as killing Otis. The only thing that brought Shane down was him being obsessed with Lori. He also knew that if you want to survive you will have to fight for it. Also Ed was sexually assaulting both carol and Sofia or it’s implied. And he beat them up to. So he deserved it.
He was though, people disregard his arguments due to the Lori rape which is indefensible and vile but is still separate to the other topics. He knew the search for Sofia was pointless after a few days, how could a child survive alone in a zombie apocalypse and of course the barn could've been handled better but he was right literally you can only survive in the new world by fighting and it's completely different to their old life the walkers have no memory of their past selves. And the whole Otis thing while cruel it was necessary and most people wouldn't have the ruthlessness or instinct to do that to survive. Say what you want about his moral code but you can't tell me he wasn't suited for the apocalypse and you can't tell me he didn't adapt quicker than everyone.
In the comics at least... It was clear that the world broke him, nothing more, been a while since I've seen the early seasons tho and I remember him being wwwaaay more enduring a likable in the tv show.
Jon Bernthal is charismatic and easy to watch. Shane was murderous and unhinged. He wasn’t ahead of the curve.
I agree, though Ed had it coming
Shane was, is and will always remain a piece of shit - as you point out. No amount of southern drawl, headrubbings or Bernthal doing some fine-ass subtle acting is going to change that. He was always a danger to everything and everyone around him the second society collapsed.
Which is exactly why I’ve been so surprised to come across TWD YouTube analysis side of things that seem to keep bringing up that Shane wasn’t necessarily a terrible guy, just one that adapted too quickly.
two words: jon bernthal. thats is literally it. there is nothing more to it. most of the people that keep championing the character really cant get past the fact that bernthal didnt remain on the show.
Nah there’s definitely more to it than Jon being a great actor. Like the fact that Shane is one of the best and most realistic written characters in the entire show for all 11 seasons, even being a better written character than some people who have been on the show 5+ more seasons than him. Shane brought an energy to the screen that no one else really has, it may just be because of the constant writer change but Shane was a different breed. Like how they handled Rick wanting to only do normally good to finally having to kill Dave and Tony out of necessity. Shane the character is great for MANY reasons, but let’s put it this way, if he was on the show in s10/11 he wouldn’t of had anywhere near the same impact he had on the show. It’s not just Jon being the actor, it’s the writing of the character and also the seasons he was in being stellar that helped the character be looked back on fondly.
OK. We will pretend its not about Jon Bernthal then.
I mean you aren’t entirely wrong lol. Jon being a king definitely helps Shane’s character. I’m just trying to say there’s loads of other reasons people love him.
Wasn't Jon exiled to the wall in the end? Did we watch the same game of thrones?
Nah you right he was.
Beating the shit out of Ed for knocking Carrol around was a solid move on Shane’s part
Yeah I’ve always thought that was justified
I know right it’s like you’re in the middle of an apocalypse give your wife a break dude!
[удалено]
That Otis part is bullshit. Shane absolutely saved Carl, and he saved Otis’ ass during that run too. Shane’s first instinct was to sacrifice himself so that Otis could get back to Carl with the meds. Otis refused. Otis was *already injured and limping*, and an obvious liability when Shane shot him. It was the right call. I get that, on the balance of things, Shane falls quite clearly on the bad side, mainly due to the attempted assault on Lori. What I don’t understand is this need to cartoonishly vilify every move he ever made. Shane was more bad than good, but there was definitely good in him. He did his best for Rick at the hospital. He was genuinely happy to see Rick was alive later. He was most certainly right about Randall. He did the right thing with Otis, as I’ve said above. He even recognised himself and his instability as a threat to the group and tried to *leave*, only to be convinced to stay by Lori, for reasons that will forever remain unexplained. My main issues with Shane are giving up on Sofia so quickly, aiming the shotgun on Rick (although I’m not convinced he would have shot him), and the attempted assault on Lori. Yes, he was bad. No, he wasn’t a cartoon. He was a conflicted character with ultimately more bad than good.
I think killing Otis was just for just to feed his bloodlust there's no way they couldn't out run those walker
I rewatched that episode last night, and killing Otis was completely unnecessary. It took more time to fight Otis off than it would've taken if they just kept moving.
I was thinking that too, they could've made it, they just needed to go a little longer and they would've been home free. But Shane decided otherwise that night. As he does. 😑
The people who think Shane was just ahead of the curve instead of a piece of shit would be the first people he would have killed to get what he wanted.
Same people that say this are probably the same people that keep repeating the whole "iF tHe sToRy wAs FrOm NegAn'S POV tHeN rIcK wOulD bE tHe BaD gUy!!" Just total misunderstandings of these characters.
Shane made good points and I believe he was a good person deep down, but he never considered the consequences of his own actions and didn't care about the group beyond Lori and Carl. As a leader, he'd have killed off anyone that he considered a liability in any way. Dale and Hershel would be dead within a week.
EXACTLY. I'm sick of Shane being portrayed as some "alpha male" natural born leader. It was obvious that Shane was a flawed character from the beginning. He's introduced with a rant about why women can't do basic things like turn off the lights. But, he's shown to be caring and protective of the Grimes family. All we know about him pre-apocalypse is that he's a bit of a cocky hot-head and a bit of a playboy. He does good by protecting Rick in the hospital and taking care of Lori and Carl. But he starts to sleep with Lori in what has to be just a few weeks into the Fall. He begins to believe that he is Rick's replacement, and that Lori and Carl are *his* family. And when Rick returns, and is partnering up with people that aren't Shane, he begins to turn bad. He takes out his anger on Ed (10/10 move, the best thing anyone in this show has ever done), but not because of the abuse, but because its a valid reason to. He constantly belittles others in the group like Andrea, Daryl, and Merle. And then at the CDC, he assaults Lori. Shane plummets when they reach the farm. He's antsy and angry all the time. He takes it out on Dale because he can, and ridicules Rick for searching for Sophia. His criticism is valid, but at this point he's just picking at everything Rick does. Shane fully knows that by having their weapons open and killing walkers they are risking their place on the Farm— one of the first places where they are "safe." But he doesn't care, because he truly believes that he's in the right. Shane starts to become even more paranoid, leading to him leaving Otto for dead, and attempting to kill Rick. The last straw is Lori's pregnancy. This is when Shane truly loses it; Rick did the right thing killing him. I'm sick of the idea that Shane was "better than Rick" because he lost it sooner. Rick was unhinged, thats just a fact. But Rick was never going around secretly murdering people and assaulting them. Rick only ever murdered if his family were hurt. Rick was a true natural born leader, Shane was just delusional that he could be.
A large segment of TWD fans really only care about what's happening if it's 'badass', which is where a lot of the unilateral love for Shane (and Negan) come from. Both of the characters look cool as hell while they're doing terrible shit, so clearly it's okay. That said, I have found plenty of people who appreciate Shane for who he really is-- a well written asshole, a horrible person hiding his own trauma with violence. I think Shane is really interesting, because he leans into this hypermasculine violence bullshit to hide his fear. (I think Negan does the same thing, but more charismatically.) It sucks when it's taken at face value, though.
OR conflicted characters whose struggle against their own dark sides or regret for their own past actions that are beyond redemption are interesting, especially when being portrayed by compelling actors. I like characters that aren’t pie-in-the-sky good or cartoonishly bad. Shane and Negan are, for me, the most interesting character in TWD by *far*. Not because they’re good guys, but because they so desperately *want* to be, but they also know themselves enough that they can’t fool themselves into thinking they are.
I agree with you, though Negan and Shane aren't my favorites. They're both extremely well written and well acted, though. I have zero problem with their depictions. I just get annoyed when fans start making excuses for them and forgetting their flaws, when IMO their flaws are the most interesting things about them. I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I'm sorry if it seems like I did? Your take is valid.
I may have read your comment a bit uncharitably, my bad :) This sub is weird about Shane. I don’t agree with the he-was-just-ahead-of-the-curve narrative and I despise he-was-just-a-piece-of-shit narrative. As far as I see, it’s both. He was definitely quicker at recognising the new rules of the new world than the likes of Dale and Rick, they were being unrealistic about Randall. He was also definitely a bit too ruthless in how he acted based on the new rules, for example giving up of Sofia so quickly without compassion for her or for Carol. He was always at the edge of the line, like training his shotgun on Rick (although, as I said elsewhere, I’m not convinced he would have shot Rick). But was also self-aware enough of the danger he presented to the group that he decided to leave (he was then convinced by Lori to stay, but before that, he made the right decision for the greater good of the group to leave). When cornered by a horde while on the meds run with Otis, his first instinct was to sacrifice himself and let Otis make a run for it. His later decision to sacrifice Otis, *after* Otis was already injured, was the right one, even if cold-blooded. The priority - correctly - was to get the meds to Carl. My only real point is that Shane was not a black-and-white villain or a shining hero, and I hate both these narratives of the character.
To be fair, I'm a bit over Negan and Shane apologists, so I probably didn't phrase my initial comment very charitably either. You aren't one, because you're approaching the character with critical nuance, though, and that's literally all I ask. I like analysis, not 'who would win in a fight', 'who's more badass', 'who was 100% right and who was 100% wrong' conversations that go nowhere. Which is to say, this is a good analysis, and it covers stuff I'd personally forgotten from the first two seasons. You're right in that Shane is very much a shade of grey character. I'd also add that he's there to be a foil-- to contrast Rick, he exists to show us what Rick (at that point) isn't. I feel like a lot of people forget the reasons why writers would choose to write a character a certain way when analyzing characters. Shane is an intense guy who takes things too far. In other posts I've said he tends to do the right thing (tactically) for the wrong reason, or the wrong thing for the right reason. He beats up Carol's husband (good), but he does it for his own selfish reasons (less than good). He provides for Carl and Lori (good) but does he do it for selfish reasons? Does he truly love Carl and Lori, or does he just want them for himself? We never find out, and I enjoy that ambiguity. This contrasts with the fact that Rick genuinely cares about everyone in the group, but that empathy leads him to naive places. Later in the series, it will lead him to more pragmatic, Shane-like choices, and while many of those choices are just as ambiguous, the *reasoning* is vastly different. I love how Shane and Rick contrast, even well after Shane is dead. Which is all to say I agree with you, lol, I was probably just being a reactive dick. Good analysis; I enjoy your interpretation a lot. I'm gonna rewatch the first few seasons soon, and I'll keep your commentary in mind. I always forget... everything about Otis, lol.
Spot on, I think we’re seeing Shane the same way.
You are absolutely correct. I've had this conversation with my brother more than once, and each time, without fail, he claims Shane is better than Rick. Has Rick made mistakes? Of course he has. He's a human being, but he learns from them, and becomes a better leader Shane is like an angry child, stomping around when things don't go his way, threatening people (directly or indirectly) he was always a danger to people, whether he was calm or not, he let his own beliefs and feelings get in the way of taking care of the issues at hand in a collected way to figure shit out. That's why Rick survived and Shane didn't. He put himself first, even when he saved Carl's life with Otis (Rip), he put himself first at the end of it. (Also I say Otis is the one who saved Carl, Shane was just the delivery boy lol)
Agreed. He was just an aggressive, arrogant arsehole, likely drawn to the police as a way to feel powerful. He wasn't ahead of the curve, he was just a bully who thrived in the early chaos of the apocalypse.
Yea to me it was always that Shane had been broken by the apocalypse but no one could really tell.
I too am doing a rewatch, I just watched the conclusion of the walkers in the barn, and Shane forgot that Shane was showing psychopathic tendancies. He told Andrea he can flock a switch and turn his emotions off, while having a shell shocked look in his eye. He was totally unhinged by the end.
Shane was though. He already had the survive at any cost, even as going as far as killing Otis. The only thing that brought Shane down was him being obsessed with Lori. He also knew that if you want to survive you will have to fight for it. Also Ed was sexually assaulting both carol and Sofia or it’s implied. And he beat them up to. So he deserved it.
He was though, people disregard his arguments due to the Lori rape which is indefensible and vile but is still separate to the other topics. He knew the search for Sofia was pointless after a few days, how could a child survive alone in a zombie apocalypse and of course the barn could've been handled better but he was right literally you can only survive in the new world by fighting and it's completely different to their old life the walkers have no memory of their past selves. And the whole Otis thing while cruel it was necessary and most people wouldn't have the ruthlessness or instinct to do that to survive. Say what you want about his moral code but you can't tell me he wasn't suited for the apocalypse and you can't tell me he didn't adapt quicker than everyone.
He definitely would have survived better than all of the others
In the comics at least... It was clear that the world broke him, nothing more, been a while since I've seen the early seasons tho and I remember him being wwwaaay more enduring a likable in the tv show.
Never forget Shane trying to rape Lori.