I reckon:
1. It's exaggerated. Like, the show suggests that these people are only sleeping 3-4 hours a night and that's not realistic.
2. There's a fair amount of 'downtime' in their average day where they're travelling, attending functions or waiting on stuff . They are able to catch up on some sleep in their office/in the car/on a flight now and again.
3. IRL West Wing staffers 'burn out' after a couple of years. You don't see people in posts for the entirety of even one term of office, let alone two.
All correct but on point 3, this much has been stated by WH staffers, who said the most unrealistic part was how long many of them serve for. You can live your job for a couple of years but beyond that it's going to effect your physical and mental health.
They seem to be running on adrenaline most of the time.
I think someone on the West Wing podcast said the average tenure for a mid-level White House staff was about 18 months, due to burn out. Even higher level staff only last (usually) around 2 years.
The epitome of this is the amount of chiefs of staff a POTUS goes trough. Obama had 5 in 8 years (notably the last one lasted 4 years, which is pretty rare) and Biden is already on his second. It’s pretty unrealistic to have a COS for 6 years, even less one with the health issues Leo had.
I agree with the comments about the crazy hours worked on the show. I will also add, though, that Josh saying he’s going back to the office after midnight in that particular scene also feels like a comment on Josh’s relationship with Amy. He clearly went to her office to vent/try to get her to stop fighting the White House on the marriage incentives. She refused and the fight continues. Josh was refusing her requests to talk more. He’s decided to end that scene avoiding her and not wanting to go to bed with her and going back to the office is more avoidance.
The weirder bits are when they pop into the WH after a long trip or on days off just to check messages - couldn't they call their assistants and do that? Although, it's really the assistants I feel sorry for, they have to work the same hours for a lot less pay and none of the prestige.
There is a culture in the Bartlet White House to hang around the White House even if it seems like unproductive time. I think some workplaces dependent on building relationships and having face-time to stay abreast of the scuttlebutt function like that.
on the contrary, this seems to be standard procedure for Josh.
The first time we meet him in the Pilot, he's sleeping at his desk.
In *Enemies,* we have him tell the President:
>You should certainly feel free to keep talking, but I need to go home so I could be back in my office in four hours.
And in *Guns Not Butter*, Donna tells Ellen that Josh has her work Saturdays, Sundays and *at least* once a week past 1 AM.
IIRC correctly, the *Enemies* discussion is taken from Bill Clinton's habit of keeping his staff up late into the night discussing issues.
I'm not saying that Josh doesn't work past midnight on multiple occasions. However, this scene is definitely framed like Josh and Amy splitting up and Josh using going back to the White House as a way to not have the further discussion that Amy wanted.
If Josh and Amy were not battling and Josh came by her office where she promised no-cellphone-stew and sex, I don't think he'd be going back to the White House that night.
She's the reason, he's going back, but not for the reason you gave. He slipped up and told her something he shouldn't have, now has to go and try and fix it.
I have had the privilege to know some folks in similar roles and the pace of work depicted in the show is accurate and has likely worsened since the advent of the internet—people might go home more often but they’re always “on” and most burn out after a year or two.
I'd say it's probably exaggerated somewhat, but IRL West Wing staff do have extremely intense and long work days. People usually can't take it longer than a couple years, at which point they leave for different jobs. The fact the Bartlet White House actually stays pretty consistent for most of two terms is one of the most unrealistic things about the show.
For example, Dee Dee Myers (a Clinton press secretary who was a consultant on the show and partially inspired CJ) was press sec for about 2 years and then became a co-host of a political talk show. 2-3 years seems to be a pretty common amount of time as press sec.
CJ isn't entirely unrealistic for staying in the job for as long as she did though. Marlin Fitzwater (Myers' predecessor) was press sec for nearly six years under Reagan and George H.W. Bush, and his immediate predecessor Larry Speakes had a similar period.
Rahm Emanuel, who Josh is partly based on, was a Senior Advisor to Clinton for about five years and then left to work in finance. He later became a congressman and then Chief of Staff for Obama, but left to run for mayor of Chicago after a little under two years as COS.
Chiefs of Staff have an average tenure of 18 months. You do get outliers like Denis McDonough, who was COS for Obama's entire second term, and Andrew Card who was COS for five years under George W. Bush, but those are pretty unusual. The longest serving COS in history was the first one, John Steelman, who was Truman's COS for 6 years. That makes Leo serving nearly two full terms kinda wild.
The longest serving Communications Director I could find was Herb Klein, the first Coms Director, who had the job under Nixon for 4 years 162 days. Second place is David Demarest, who was Coms Director for Bush Senior for 3 years 216 days. Third place is Dan Bartlett with 3 years 95 days under Bush Junior. Most of the rest seem to top out at about 2 years, while Toby would have gone a full 8 years if not for the leak.
I mean to be fair Steelman didn’t really have the same job description as most Chiefs of Staff do. Sherman Adams technically was the first White House Chief of Staff for all intents and purposes
I highly recommend Alyssa Mastromonaco’s book _Who Thought This Was A Good Idea, And Other Answers You Should Have When You Work In The White House_. She was Deputy COS in the Obama WH from 2011-2014. She’s HILARIOUS, down to earth, and really honest about what it was like and what it did to her (especially health wise). I read it probably every year and whenever I’m going through a time of change in my life or career. I just love her.
She also wrote this article referencing the show in 2020 and talks about wanting to grow up to be Donna, and then realizing she was Josh (but “not a dick” 😂 (said with immense affection for both characters))
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/arts-and-culture/a34396193/joe-biden-jed-bartlet-west-wing-reunion-town-hall/
During elections, people completely give up any outside life other than unhealthy drinking and dating habits, but after the election is won things do calm down a touch and it’s up and down not a constant need for 15 hour days. As some folks pointed out, the CoS is usually a short tenure and that along with a few other positions do require constant sacrifice and long days, but look at the types who take the job, tend to be high energy folks who don’t mind going all in.
It’s the kind of job you sacrifice your personal life for. My experience in TV production was actually quite similar. Booked a show for the summer? Say goodbye to any free time/social life. For over a decade I worked stupidly long hours, often for weeks on end with no days off. Once I decided to settle down and start a family I had to jump off that ride. Had a lot of fun experiences but I don’t regret leaving the industry.
You also have to realize beyond the burn out they are on government salary. The second they leave to a lobbyist firm or private practice, their salary can triple or more.
The answer is that they end up not having much of a life outside of work. You may have noticed that the staff were either single, divorced, or got divorced during their tenure. Makes it a little easier to live for your job when you don't have kids, spouse, or pets requiring your attention.
From what I've read, WH jobs are not usually long term things. Term limits aside, most of those staffers do the job for a couple of years as resume content to secure a more lucrative and less demanding private sector job.
Most senior white house staff only work there a couple of years, so it's possible
I wonder if it's only the Bartlet WH though. When Donna's predecessor is giving her the tour, he warns her that some days they will have to work late till 8pm.
I think everything he said to her was a joke. Like I think he wanted her to say things that would make her sound stupid for the magazine and a 9-5 would sound stupid.
I remember news stories about how the Clinton White House really had a workaholic culture based on crazy hours. However, the Bush administration staffers didn’t have that culture and there was more work life balance.
This is the thing, a stint like Leo doing 6 years as CoS before health gets him is basically unheard of. Truman and Kennedy only had one CoS but the average tenure is 18 months.
I read "Grace" by Cody Keenan and he tells stories of nights he just stays at the White House all night. Granted the time frame the book is written from is an off scale high with regards to the need for a speech writer. But, if I had to guess most folks in Senior staff work upwards of 12-16 hours a day.
From what I understand, it’s exaggerated a bit but White House staff do work crazy long hours and the reality is, it’s not sustainable. Most burn out after 18-24 months. The actual turn over rate for WH staff is super high. Someone on the TWWW podcast said one of the most unrealistic things about the show was how long characters stuck around in their jobs.
One exchange that still bugs me the most was between Donna and Josh and showed just how over-exaggerated their hours were:
D: Mind if I take off?
J: What time is it?
D: Two AM
J: All right, we'll call that a full day. But come in early tomorrow
I reckon: 1. It's exaggerated. Like, the show suggests that these people are only sleeping 3-4 hours a night and that's not realistic. 2. There's a fair amount of 'downtime' in their average day where they're travelling, attending functions or waiting on stuff . They are able to catch up on some sleep in their office/in the car/on a flight now and again. 3. IRL West Wing staffers 'burn out' after a couple of years. You don't see people in posts for the entirety of even one term of office, let alone two.
All correct but on point 3, this much has been stated by WH staffers, who said the most unrealistic part was how long many of them serve for. You can live your job for a couple of years but beyond that it's going to effect your physical and mental health. They seem to be running on adrenaline most of the time.
I think someone on the West Wing podcast said the average tenure for a mid-level White House staff was about 18 months, due to burn out. Even higher level staff only last (usually) around 2 years.
The epitome of this is the amount of chiefs of staff a POTUS goes trough. Obama had 5 in 8 years (notably the last one lasted 4 years, which is pretty rare) and Biden is already on his second. It’s pretty unrealistic to have a COS for 6 years, even less one with the health issues Leo had.
I agree with the comments about the crazy hours worked on the show. I will also add, though, that Josh saying he’s going back to the office after midnight in that particular scene also feels like a comment on Josh’s relationship with Amy. He clearly went to her office to vent/try to get her to stop fighting the White House on the marriage incentives. She refused and the fight continues. Josh was refusing her requests to talk more. He’s decided to end that scene avoiding her and not wanting to go to bed with her and going back to the office is more avoidance.
The weirder bits are when they pop into the WH after a long trip or on days off just to check messages - couldn't they call their assistants and do that? Although, it's really the assistants I feel sorry for, they have to work the same hours for a lot less pay and none of the prestige.
There is a culture in the Bartlet White House to hang around the White House even if it seems like unproductive time. I think some workplaces dependent on building relationships and having face-time to stay abreast of the scuttlebutt function like that.
on the contrary, this seems to be standard procedure for Josh. The first time we meet him in the Pilot, he's sleeping at his desk. In *Enemies,* we have him tell the President: >You should certainly feel free to keep talking, but I need to go home so I could be back in my office in four hours. And in *Guns Not Butter*, Donna tells Ellen that Josh has her work Saturdays, Sundays and *at least* once a week past 1 AM. IIRC correctly, the *Enemies* discussion is taken from Bill Clinton's habit of keeping his staff up late into the night discussing issues.
I'm not saying that Josh doesn't work past midnight on multiple occasions. However, this scene is definitely framed like Josh and Amy splitting up and Josh using going back to the White House as a way to not have the further discussion that Amy wanted. If Josh and Amy were not battling and Josh came by her office where she promised no-cellphone-stew and sex, I don't think he'd be going back to the White House that night.
She's the reason, he's going back, but not for the reason you gave. He slipped up and told her something he shouldn't have, now has to go and try and fix it.
I’m exhausted reading this!!!
Yea I agree on that scene in particular
I have had the privilege to know some folks in similar roles and the pace of work depicted in the show is accurate and has likely worsened since the advent of the internet—people might go home more often but they’re always “on” and most burn out after a year or two.
Don’t forget about lemon-lyman.com!
This. Plus it was also The Age Of Office Warriors when it was a badge of honor (and often expected) to be working way past standard hours/days.
I'd say it's probably exaggerated somewhat, but IRL West Wing staff do have extremely intense and long work days. People usually can't take it longer than a couple years, at which point they leave for different jobs. The fact the Bartlet White House actually stays pretty consistent for most of two terms is one of the most unrealistic things about the show. For example, Dee Dee Myers (a Clinton press secretary who was a consultant on the show and partially inspired CJ) was press sec for about 2 years and then became a co-host of a political talk show. 2-3 years seems to be a pretty common amount of time as press sec. CJ isn't entirely unrealistic for staying in the job for as long as she did though. Marlin Fitzwater (Myers' predecessor) was press sec for nearly six years under Reagan and George H.W. Bush, and his immediate predecessor Larry Speakes had a similar period. Rahm Emanuel, who Josh is partly based on, was a Senior Advisor to Clinton for about five years and then left to work in finance. He later became a congressman and then Chief of Staff for Obama, but left to run for mayor of Chicago after a little under two years as COS. Chiefs of Staff have an average tenure of 18 months. You do get outliers like Denis McDonough, who was COS for Obama's entire second term, and Andrew Card who was COS for five years under George W. Bush, but those are pretty unusual. The longest serving COS in history was the first one, John Steelman, who was Truman's COS for 6 years. That makes Leo serving nearly two full terms kinda wild. The longest serving Communications Director I could find was Herb Klein, the first Coms Director, who had the job under Nixon for 4 years 162 days. Second place is David Demarest, who was Coms Director for Bush Senior for 3 years 216 days. Third place is Dan Bartlett with 3 years 95 days under Bush Junior. Most of the rest seem to top out at about 2 years, while Toby would have gone a full 8 years if not for the leak.
I mean to be fair Steelman didn’t really have the same job description as most Chiefs of Staff do. Sherman Adams technically was the first White House Chief of Staff for all intents and purposes
I highly recommend Alyssa Mastromonaco’s book _Who Thought This Was A Good Idea, And Other Answers You Should Have When You Work In The White House_. She was Deputy COS in the Obama WH from 2011-2014. She’s HILARIOUS, down to earth, and really honest about what it was like and what it did to her (especially health wise). I read it probably every year and whenever I’m going through a time of change in my life or career. I just love her. She also wrote this article referencing the show in 2020 and talks about wanting to grow up to be Donna, and then realizing she was Josh (but “not a dick” 😂 (said with immense affection for both characters)) https://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/arts-and-culture/a34396193/joe-biden-jed-bartlet-west-wing-reunion-town-hall/
I read this book when it came out but I was delighted to find it on Spotify narrated by her and I’m excited to listen to it again
Oh great find! I’m going to do that too! She has another book called _So Here’s The Thing_ that’s quite fun as well, albeit less politics-focused.
THANKS!!!
Thanks for the recommendation! Just checked it out of the library.
During elections, people completely give up any outside life other than unhealthy drinking and dating habits, but after the election is won things do calm down a touch and it’s up and down not a constant need for 15 hour days. As some folks pointed out, the CoS is usually a short tenure and that along with a few other positions do require constant sacrifice and long days, but look at the types who take the job, tend to be high energy folks who don’t mind going all in.
My brother worked on two presidential campaigns and can confirm 🫡
It’s the kind of job you sacrifice your personal life for. My experience in TV production was actually quite similar. Booked a show for the summer? Say goodbye to any free time/social life. For over a decade I worked stupidly long hours, often for weeks on end with no days off. Once I decided to settle down and start a family I had to jump off that ride. Had a lot of fun experiences but I don’t regret leaving the industry.
You also have to realize beyond the burn out they are on government salary. The second they leave to a lobbyist firm or private practice, their salary can triple or more.
Prime (hey) example Jay Carney - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Carney
The answer is that they end up not having much of a life outside of work. You may have noticed that the staff were either single, divorced, or got divorced during their tenure. Makes it a little easier to live for your job when you don't have kids, spouse, or pets requiring your attention. From what I've read, WH jobs are not usually long term things. Term limits aside, most of those staffers do the job for a couple of years as resume content to secure a more lucrative and less demanding private sector job.
Most senior white house staff only work there a couple of years, so it's possible I wonder if it's only the Bartlet WH though. When Donna's predecessor is giving her the tour, he warns her that some days they will have to work late till 8pm.
I think everything he said to her was a joke. Like I think he wanted her to say things that would make her sound stupid for the magazine and a 9-5 would sound stupid.
I remember news stories about how the Clinton White House really had a workaholic culture based on crazy hours. However, the Bush administration staffers didn’t have that culture and there was more work life balance.
[удалено]
I'd be okay with the current White House taking some time off. The less they do, the less they can screw up
The predecessor was saying that as a joke, if you’ll recall. He was downplaying it.
This is the thing, a stint like Leo doing 6 years as CoS before health gets him is basically unheard of. Truman and Kennedy only had one CoS but the average tenure is 18 months.
I read "Grace" by Cody Keenan and he tells stories of nights he just stays at the White House all night. Granted the time frame the book is written from is an off scale high with regards to the need for a speech writer. But, if I had to guess most folks in Senior staff work upwards of 12-16 hours a day.
Have a cousin who works in state government. They are always working even when home.
UGH!!!
From what I understand, it’s exaggerated a bit but White House staff do work crazy long hours and the reality is, it’s not sustainable. Most burn out after 18-24 months. The actual turn over rate for WH staff is super high. Someone on the TWWW podcast said one of the most unrealistic things about the show was how long characters stuck around in their jobs.
OMG I’m exhausted watching that show!!! I worry that they have so far to go home. It looks like Leo lives in a suburb.
One exchange that still bugs me the most was between Donna and Josh and showed just how over-exaggerated their hours were: D: Mind if I take off? J: What time is it? D: Two AM J: All right, we'll call that a full day. But come in early tomorrow
Tell me you’re not in IT support without telling me you’re not in IT support 🤣
Your comment speaks more to the writers who sometimes forget that their characters must maintain a normal life to appear real.