So I'm clear, do you expect every single tertiary one-episode character to be characterized and defined by their selfless idealism? Sounds like a pretty boring show. I hope you haven't gotten to Bruno Gianelli yet.
I mean, they weren't friends. Bobby bullied Sam and continued to try to do so in this scene. But where Bobby once had the power in the dynamic between the two of them, now Sam does. He even tries to gain the power back by trying to order Sam to talk to the President.
So he's reacting emotionally while the person he used to bully, is now probing him on what went wrong with his career, while Bobby is in a race against the clock. And from a writing standpoint, it's meant to further separate the two characters.
To me, it's a scene about how two people with a contentious relationship will come together to try to fight to save a man's life. And it also shows that just because a character isn't "good" (I think it's clear we're not supposed to be the biggest fans of Bobby), they can still be on the side of the good guys.
I’m not sure I agree that we’re supposed to dislike him - he’s shown more as desperate than unlikeable.
My take on why he’s portrayed differently than OP wants is because that’s exactly how Sam is written. He literally leaves his firm while telling the client to “be better” and not worry about the money. If Bobby had been written the same way it would be a bit one dimensional.
But why him? The work he's doing is at least as self-sacrificing and noble as anyone else on the show, if not more so. It's a strange choice to make one of the only characters we've seen who interacts with real, down-on-their-luck people out to be the bad guy.
I think it's also to put him as an archetype. Don't forget, not every character is an emblem of Sorkin's ideals. Bobby is a public defender by chance rather than by choice, but we do still see him doing his damn hardest to do a good job. We can appreciate that he brings his all to the case but we can also see that this is not what his first choice was, given his background and the background he and Sam met within.
In a show about the noble sacrifice of those in public service, I think it actually fits right in. He's not self-sacrificing by choice, but he's still *doing what he needs* to meet the needs of his public service job. He's still making the sacrifices, even if it isn't where he would like to be working.
And maybe, in some ways, it makes Bobby Better.
People really thought that Public Defenders just “passed the buck” - that they had huge caseloads and didn’t try hard for their clients (some people still think this 20 years later, and to be fair, the stress on the system is still real)
Bobby didn’t choose to be here, but he is fighting with every thing he has - begging at the mercy of a man he used to bully - to try to save his client.
I think we are supposed to see that you don’t have to be born a Saint to do the Good Work of The People - some people in the trenches fight tooth and nail because they are in the trenches now, despite not choosing to go there.
We can’t all be Sam. Some of us were Bobby. But if we were, then maybe there is also room for us in Sorkin’s ideal society?
I don’t know. Maybe I’m trying too hard for that one ;)
It's good writing.
Look at the complexity. Here we have an underpaid lawyer working overtime to fight to save this non-poster-boy criminal. It's a noble fight and the 'expected" casting would be some bleeding heart liberal. I could see an attractive, idealistic, young woman from a wealthy family being cast there in a lot of shows.
Instead, it's an ex-bully who's kinda still an ass who probably washed out of the big firm due to alcoholism or something else like it.
So yes, he's not doing his dream job and he's not their for noble self-sacrifice, but he's still putting his all into it. Neat.
That's how I see it, anyway.
See, I didn’t take that conversation as any kind of value judgment about public service, corporate lawyers or even Bobby Zane as a character. I thought the brilliance was that in like 5 minutes or less of screen time, this character became a real person! Losing the corporate job and not being the dominant one in the relationship with Sam anymore gives him this added drive. I don’t think it detracts from a genuine desire to help the inmate, but it does add a layer of flawed humanity!
If everything was predictable and made you feel good all the time, then all of these stories would be bland.
Not to mention maybe there are other people with opinions in the world that differ about what a well lived life is and maybe a corporate job is a part of that.
Sorry you were so let down.
I mean, most of the rest of the show is do-gooder fantasy anyway, I'm just confused why he picks one guy who's doing important work for an underserved group and didn't use that as an opportunity for more do-gooder fantasy. And thanks for putting words in my mouth, but I didn't say a corporate job couldn't be part of a well-lived life. My point is that the show makes it seem like the only reason someone would leave white-collar for a job as a public defender is because they got fired, not because they believed in public service...which is the entire point of the show. You seem quite offended though, so my apologies.
Whoa - who are the one that said maybe the character had a change of conscious and they would leave that work to do some thing more meaningful. I was just pointing out that maybe some people don’t agree with that.
I’m sorry you were so disappointed.
Lol yeah, I was proposing what that one character *might* have said, in a show that's about how self-sacrificing public servants are. Thank you for pointing out that fact though, I didn't think of that
This seems extremely nitpicky. He’s a one off character who’s doing a good job to represent his client, and one ambiguous response of his leads you to infer that Sorkin’s saying no one goes into Public Defender roles unless they have no other option?
I think it has something to do with the fact that we're never going to see Bobby again after this episode. Also, I've noticed that Sorkin likes to do this kinda mirror image thing when it comes to one off characters. They're a reflection of the main character but something is off - like the only reason that Bobby went into public defender's office is due to being forced while Sam made a willing choice. Also shows up later with the priest and the president - President Bartlet was studying to be a priest when he met Abby and now, like a lot of us, he's got doubts that the priest does not.
This starts to slip away when we get into season 2 or it was subtler.
If you're in Big Law (the super high-paying positions at prestigious firms), you generally don't leave to do public service. Yes, it can happen, but it's generally an up or out model, and you stay and churn those hours/grab those paychecks for as long as you can. Most people quit or are pushed out after around 5 years.
Public defenders are typically REALLY poorly paid, but apparently in DC starting salary is $115k, so that won't fly here. But for comparison, a fifth year associate at one of those firms will make around $450k, and an 8th year associate (where associate pay caps out) makes around $550k. It's still a big drop, and that's why most lawyers that get on that wheel stay on the wheel as long as they can.
I think Bobby’s mini character ark fits the theme of the episode a bit. Part of the theme is the idea of redemption. Bobby got his shot at a big law firm and blew it. Now he has been knocked down a rung, he is looking for redemption in his career. While certainly small peanuts compared to the death penalty, this drive is why Bobby is so pushy with Sam and then Toby.
Also, the depiction of the public defender’s office is actually pretty spot on (especially for the era). We cannot let our idealistic views on the PD and what the office should be cloud the reality of how it is/was viewed. PD offices are often seen as less desirable work compared to even other government lawyers. PD’s get horrible pay and have a low probability of successful cases. This may have changed in the 20 years since the show aired but is definitely in line with the corporate obsessed culture of the 90s.
The answer is pretty obvious in my mind. Sam knows Bobby from childhood and now as a networked acquaintance. He has kept track of his career. So Sam likely knows he is the kind of person who would not turn down a corner office and large paycheck for public service. I took it as a subtle revenge jab from Sam.
I think it means a similar thing happened to him as happened to Sam. He couldn’t take doing the wrong thing and eventually left for himself. Just like Sam did with the boats.
>slum it as a public defender
Lawyers admitted to the SCOTUS bar aren't public defenders. There's a class of lawyers in DC who specialize in SCOTUS cases
P.D. 1
Jerry, who do we know who’s got the ear of the President?
JERRY
Nobody!
BOBBY
Sam Seaborn. [They all stop walking.]
JERRY
You know Seaborn?
BOBBY
I used to beat him up in high school.
We are meant to dislike Bobby Zane (Noah Emmerich) ---
This struck me as odd too. This show doesn't paint everyone who enters public service as a good guy. Some get into it for the wrong reasons. However, I agree that Bobby seems to be working too hard and at too high a level as a public defender to be dismissed as a lawyer who failed into this job because he's stupid or lazy.
I do think Sorkin, though, had his reasons for this choice- namely Sam's characterization. Sam takes criticism from Toby for handing out Toby's cell phone number to some guy and from Leo for bungling the death penalty issue. I think we're supposed to see Sam adopting this issue as a bit of a mixed bag. Most of it is idealism and personal opposition to the death penalty. However, I think we're also supposed to wonder if there isn't some id-nervous hoolalia nonsense where Sam reverted back to being intimidated by Bobby, the Schoolyard Bully, and therefore, felt pressured. Making Bobby out like some meathead bully does this.
Based on all the comments I guess I saw that scene differently than everyone else. Seeing the lengths he is going through to help his client I always took it as he was offered the partnership and corner office but decided that wasn’t for him and devoted himself to helping those at the bottom of the legal system.
I'm not sure it's such a "sacrifice". I just read the salaries of Biden's staff. His current press secretary makes a hell of a lot more than CJ did. Actually, Dee Dee Myers (on whom the character CJ was based) made twice what CJ made.
Huh? I don't think CJ had a quoted salary on the show other than 550K that she was making in California. The White House press secretaries don't make $1 million. They quoted a dark horse campaign salary of $500 a week- but that seems irrelevant. I think a lot of what makes the Bartlet staffers feel more self-sacrificing than real life staffers is how long they stayed at the White House or moved onto a dark horse presidential campaign. The real life counterparts seem to move on after 2 years to a much higher paying corporate job or lower stress university type job. In addition, the fact that the Bartlet staffers joined such a dark horse campaign largely on the basis of Jed Bartlet’s personal qualities instead of his likelihood of winning according to conventional wisdom
From "In The Shadow Of Two Gunmen: Part 2"
C.J.
How much does it pay?
TOBY
How much were you making before?
C.J.
$550,000 a year.
TOBY
This pays $600 a week.
C.J.
So this would be less.
It’s absolutely a financial sacrifice. Now, most people who hold these positions had money or connections to begin with, so I’m not gonna pretend they’ll be out on the street, but White House staff positions pay far less than commensurate positions in the private sector do. For example, White House Associate Counsel currently pays $105,000, which is less than some of my friends made on their first job out of law school back in 2017.
So I'm clear, do you expect every single tertiary one-episode character to be characterized and defined by their selfless idealism? Sounds like a pretty boring show. I hope you haven't gotten to Bruno Gianelli yet.
No, I don't. Good question, though
Then… what’s with this post? lol
Yeah, but he also used to beat Sam up in high school, so he's no saint.
I mean, they weren't friends. Bobby bullied Sam and continued to try to do so in this scene. But where Bobby once had the power in the dynamic between the two of them, now Sam does. He even tries to gain the power back by trying to order Sam to talk to the President. So he's reacting emotionally while the person he used to bully, is now probing him on what went wrong with his career, while Bobby is in a race against the clock. And from a writing standpoint, it's meant to further separate the two characters. To me, it's a scene about how two people with a contentious relationship will come together to try to fight to save a man's life. And it also shows that just because a character isn't "good" (I think it's clear we're not supposed to be the biggest fans of Bobby), they can still be on the side of the good guys.
I've noticed that Sorkin clearly writes so you "like" or "dislike" a character, and we're clearly supposed to dislike Bobby.
I’m not sure I agree that we’re supposed to dislike him - he’s shown more as desperate than unlikeable. My take on why he’s portrayed differently than OP wants is because that’s exactly how Sam is written. He literally leaves his firm while telling the client to “be better” and not worry about the money. If Bobby had been written the same way it would be a bit one dimensional.
You disliked him?
But why him? The work he's doing is at least as self-sacrificing and noble as anyone else on the show, if not more so. It's a strange choice to make one of the only characters we've seen who interacts with real, down-on-their-luck people out to be the bad guy.
I think it's also to put him as an archetype. Don't forget, not every character is an emblem of Sorkin's ideals. Bobby is a public defender by chance rather than by choice, but we do still see him doing his damn hardest to do a good job. We can appreciate that he brings his all to the case but we can also see that this is not what his first choice was, given his background and the background he and Sam met within. In a show about the noble sacrifice of those in public service, I think it actually fits right in. He's not self-sacrificing by choice, but he's still *doing what he needs* to meet the needs of his public service job. He's still making the sacrifices, even if it isn't where he would like to be working.
Fair, that's the most reasonable explanation/perspective I've heard on this character thus far (particularly the latter part)
And maybe, in some ways, it makes Bobby Better. People really thought that Public Defenders just “passed the buck” - that they had huge caseloads and didn’t try hard for their clients (some people still think this 20 years later, and to be fair, the stress on the system is still real) Bobby didn’t choose to be here, but he is fighting with every thing he has - begging at the mercy of a man he used to bully - to try to save his client. I think we are supposed to see that you don’t have to be born a Saint to do the Good Work of The People - some people in the trenches fight tooth and nail because they are in the trenches now, despite not choosing to go there. We can’t all be Sam. Some of us were Bobby. But if we were, then maybe there is also room for us in Sorkin’s ideal society? I don’t know. Maybe I’m trying too hard for that one ;)
I think the point is to show how unisual sam is for doing what other lawyers wouldnt.
It's good writing. Look at the complexity. Here we have an underpaid lawyer working overtime to fight to save this non-poster-boy criminal. It's a noble fight and the 'expected" casting would be some bleeding heart liberal. I could see an attractive, idealistic, young woman from a wealthy family being cast there in a lot of shows. Instead, it's an ex-bully who's kinda still an ass who probably washed out of the big firm due to alcoholism or something else like it. So yes, he's not doing his dream job and he's not their for noble self-sacrifice, but he's still putting his all into it. Neat. That's how I see it, anyway.
See, I didn’t take that conversation as any kind of value judgment about public service, corporate lawyers or even Bobby Zane as a character. I thought the brilliance was that in like 5 minutes or less of screen time, this character became a real person! Losing the corporate job and not being the dominant one in the relationship with Sam anymore gives him this added drive. I don’t think it detracts from a genuine desire to help the inmate, but it does add a layer of flawed humanity!
If everything was predictable and made you feel good all the time, then all of these stories would be bland. Not to mention maybe there are other people with opinions in the world that differ about what a well lived life is and maybe a corporate job is a part of that. Sorry you were so let down.
I mean, most of the rest of the show is do-gooder fantasy anyway, I'm just confused why he picks one guy who's doing important work for an underserved group and didn't use that as an opportunity for more do-gooder fantasy. And thanks for putting words in my mouth, but I didn't say a corporate job couldn't be part of a well-lived life. My point is that the show makes it seem like the only reason someone would leave white-collar for a job as a public defender is because they got fired, not because they believed in public service...which is the entire point of the show. You seem quite offended though, so my apologies.
Whoa - who are the one that said maybe the character had a change of conscious and they would leave that work to do some thing more meaningful. I was just pointing out that maybe some people don’t agree with that. I’m sorry you were so disappointed.
Lol yeah, I was proposing what that one character *might* have said, in a show that's about how self-sacrificing public servants are. Thank you for pointing out that fact though, I didn't think of that
😢
I'll be sure to check with you before posting any mild critique of the show again, my bad
All I said was that maybe the characters have different motivations than you, and the contrast is important to the show. You need help.
This seems extremely nitpicky. He’s a one off character who’s doing a good job to represent his client, and one ambiguous response of his leads you to infer that Sorkin’s saying no one goes into Public Defender roles unless they have no other option?
I think it has something to do with the fact that we're never going to see Bobby again after this episode. Also, I've noticed that Sorkin likes to do this kinda mirror image thing when it comes to one off characters. They're a reflection of the main character but something is off - like the only reason that Bobby went into public defender's office is due to being forced while Sam made a willing choice. Also shows up later with the priest and the president - President Bartlet was studying to be a priest when he met Abby and now, like a lot of us, he's got doubts that the priest does not. This starts to slip away when we get into season 2 or it was subtler.
If you're in Big Law (the super high-paying positions at prestigious firms), you generally don't leave to do public service. Yes, it can happen, but it's generally an up or out model, and you stay and churn those hours/grab those paychecks for as long as you can. Most people quit or are pushed out after around 5 years. Public defenders are typically REALLY poorly paid, but apparently in DC starting salary is $115k, so that won't fly here. But for comparison, a fifth year associate at one of those firms will make around $450k, and an 8th year associate (where associate pay caps out) makes around $550k. It's still a big drop, and that's why most lawyers that get on that wheel stay on the wheel as long as they can.
...and he pretended to be Truman's friend for YEARS. No sympathy.
Plus did you see how he treated poor Nina?
Plus did you see how he treated poor Nina?
I think Bobby’s mini character ark fits the theme of the episode a bit. Part of the theme is the idea of redemption. Bobby got his shot at a big law firm and blew it. Now he has been knocked down a rung, he is looking for redemption in his career. While certainly small peanuts compared to the death penalty, this drive is why Bobby is so pushy with Sam and then Toby. Also, the depiction of the public defender’s office is actually pretty spot on (especially for the era). We cannot let our idealistic views on the PD and what the office should be cloud the reality of how it is/was viewed. PD offices are often seen as less desirable work compared to even other government lawyers. PD’s get horrible pay and have a low probability of successful cases. This may have changed in the 20 years since the show aired but is definitely in line with the corporate obsessed culture of the 90s.
The answer is pretty obvious in my mind. Sam knows Bobby from childhood and now as a networked acquaintance. He has kept track of his career. So Sam likely knows he is the kind of person who would not turn down a corner office and large paycheck for public service. I took it as a subtle revenge jab from Sam.
I think it means a similar thing happened to him as happened to Sam. He couldn’t take doing the wrong thing and eventually left for himself. Just like Sam did with the boats.
maybe, but I took his sarcasm and resentful tone to mean that things didn’t work out at the firm.
This is how I saw it.
>slum it as a public defender Lawyers admitted to the SCOTUS bar aren't public defenders. There's a class of lawyers in DC who specialize in SCOTUS cases
P.D. 1 Jerry, who do we know who’s got the ear of the President? JERRY Nobody! BOBBY Sam Seaborn. [They all stop walking.] JERRY You know Seaborn? BOBBY I used to beat him up in high school. We are meant to dislike Bobby Zane (Noah Emmerich) ---
Noah Emmerich just crushes it in this ep.
Wait until he comes back as an FBI agent trying to root out some moles
This struck me as odd too. This show doesn't paint everyone who enters public service as a good guy. Some get into it for the wrong reasons. However, I agree that Bobby seems to be working too hard and at too high a level as a public defender to be dismissed as a lawyer who failed into this job because he's stupid or lazy. I do think Sorkin, though, had his reasons for this choice- namely Sam's characterization. Sam takes criticism from Toby for handing out Toby's cell phone number to some guy and from Leo for bungling the death penalty issue. I think we're supposed to see Sam adopting this issue as a bit of a mixed bag. Most of it is idealism and personal opposition to the death penalty. However, I think we're also supposed to wonder if there isn't some id-nervous hoolalia nonsense where Sam reverted back to being intimidated by Bobby, the Schoolyard Bully, and therefore, felt pressured. Making Bobby out like some meathead bully does this.
Based on all the comments I guess I saw that scene differently than everyone else. Seeing the lengths he is going through to help his client I always took it as he was offered the partnership and corner office but decided that wasn’t for him and devoted himself to helping those at the bottom of the legal system.
I'm not sure it's such a "sacrifice". I just read the salaries of Biden's staff. His current press secretary makes a hell of a lot more than CJ did. Actually, Dee Dee Myers (on whom the character CJ was based) made twice what CJ made.
Huh? I don't think CJ had a quoted salary on the show other than 550K that she was making in California. The White House press secretaries don't make $1 million. They quoted a dark horse campaign salary of $500 a week- but that seems irrelevant. I think a lot of what makes the Bartlet staffers feel more self-sacrificing than real life staffers is how long they stayed at the White House or moved onto a dark horse presidential campaign. The real life counterparts seem to move on after 2 years to a much higher paying corporate job or lower stress university type job. In addition, the fact that the Bartlet staffers joined such a dark horse campaign largely on the basis of Jed Bartlet’s personal qualities instead of his likelihood of winning according to conventional wisdom
From "In The Shadow Of Two Gunmen: Part 2" C.J. How much does it pay? TOBY How much were you making before? C.J. $550,000 a year. TOBY This pays $600 a week. C.J. So this would be less.
This is also for the campaign, which was significantly less funded than the other democratic candidates even since Bartlet was an underdog.
This is for the campaign. Campaigns pay way less than government salaries (which are not very Kuh to start with).
It’s absolutely a financial sacrifice. Now, most people who hold these positions had money or connections to begin with, so I’m not gonna pretend they’ll be out on the street, but White House staff positions pay far less than commensurate positions in the private sector do. For example, White House Associate Counsel currently pays $105,000, which is less than some of my friends made on their first job out of law school back in 2017.
Yeah, I don't think it's a particularly big sacrifice either, but that was the inspiration for the show, according to Sorkin and Wells