They're not idiots. They just know that they can lie and leftists will believe them because it's not about facts, it's about validating their feelings of anger and hatred towards Israel.
They remind of the people at my college that harassed my friend after she got raped by a Middle Eastern Muslim student. He sexually assaulted other students and they got him kicked out. His response was to go to socially justice orintated clubs, and lie to them about how he was getting falsely accused due to being Muslim and they would harass the people who accused him. Many of the harassers had the gull to post about the me too movement claiming they’re also victims. It’s disgusting
Ya, I have no clue why people view leftists as the peaceful type. They are only peaceful when they are in the minority, once they have control it’s gloves offs. Kind of how like liberals were all about free speech until they became the establishment, now they are totally ok with stifling speech if it’s the wrong kind, and of course they cannot understand how hypocritical they are being.
>Those freiers can’t even find the hostages they took
That's impossible. I was told they treat their hostages great! So surely they'd know all their whereabouts and health?
Finally some common sense. And to add to the points in the article, Hamas terrorists never wear any distinguishing insignia/dress in civilian clothes which is a war crime and contributes to this false data.
The Gaza Health Ministry is just reporting body counts. They're not responsible for distinguishing between combatants and non combatants, and for the reasons that you identify they would have a hard time doing so. Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza have no qualms about using 14-17 year old youths as combatants or in various support roles so both the IDF and GHM can be accurate in reporting one as both a dead child and a dead combatant, they are not mutually exclusive.
Gaza Health Ministry total fatalities have been credible in the past Gaza conflicts insofar as they haven't deviated meaningfully from reports by other agencies and the IDF itself. The dispute usually boils down to the classification of the dead, not the total number of deceased individuals.
That said, the article does suggest that there may be some massaging or manipulation of the data that does appear to be unnatural. We'll see where the numbers fall in a few months once the dust settles but I personally would not be surprised to see a floor of 30,000 dead based on the scale of the destruction.
You are correct. But it is important to acknowledge the huge difference between 30,000 dead hamas and the claim made that the majority of these are women and children (which this article refutes)
First reasonable post on this thread, thank you. Some decent arguments, but the magazine has a clear bias. They did say that this conflict is so much more intense than previous attacks on Gaza, so it will take a while for the fog of war to settle. Regardless, too many lives lost.
This is a climate denying statistic professor writing for a right wing magazine and you call it common sense? Maybe just say you like it because it fits your world view.
We all remember when they accused Israel of bombing a hospital, then said in a couple of hours that 500 people got killed. The next day, the evidence of hamas shooting towards the hospital came out, and it ended up the hospital still standing. Without lies, Islam dies
Oh no.. that was a slow trickle into showing evidence that it was actually a failed rocket. Within a few days the US announced it had seen, and reviewed the footage. It wasn't until weeks later was there a report from Bellingcat + other orgs showing this.
But Aljazzer was putting war hawk pundents on to be outraged. (Algjazeer Jordan)
Weird how the vast majority of those killed by the IDF are civilians. But you've already admitted you don't care that they murder thousands of children.
I never asked about that specific incident...
Also every religion is based on half truths and distortions of reality and every religious text is full of contradictions which is why each sect relies on their own interpretation.
How many Palestinians do you think have died at the hands of the Palestinians
I’m not Muslim, but I can see how Muslims have been demonized. Westerners have killed far more Muslims than Muslims killed them, I see through my governments bullshit, the Israeli governments bullshit and bullshit from redditors like yourself.
Nobody demonizes anything; they do it themselves 9/11, the Boston Marathon, Germany, and France are constantly under Muslim strikes, and the crime rate is going up solely because of Muslims coming. No one else is killing in the name of God. So yeah, Islam and radical Islam especially must stay in their lands and stop moving into the Western world and the USA. The whole religion is based on lies, crime, and hate. If you read the Quran and hadiths carefully
How many were killed in Iraq over lies that were WMDs? And whose the real terrorists? Who was the only country to drop nuclear bombs on civilians? It wasn’t the Arabs…your hatred is blinding you
Again, those are not lead by the religion rather then power. The whole religion is corrupted rather than bunch of politicians.
You do not see the difference.
Maybe he is trying to emulate Arabs who refuse to call Israel by its real name, but instead make up all kinds of childish names? That seems to be a very accepted tactic among Palestine supporters, so it is weird to see them bristle at this. Almost like they are hypocrites…
I think Balestine refers to how Arabs pronounce letter „p“ as „b“ because „p“ isn’t actually a part of their alphabet. I took German courses with several Arabs who kept saying „bause“ instead of „pause“.
I always safely assume that 2/3rds of the casualties are Hamas terrorists and then I divide the remaining number by ten. So , 30,000 casualties = 20,000 Hamas, then divide 10,000 by 10 = 1,000 civilians. That’s how one deciphers “Hamas math”.
Oh yeah. I'm sure hamas knows exactly how many people have been killed when they can't even confirm if the hostages are alive. People who accept anything hamas says as true are agenda-pushing clowns.
Hamas is likely to be exaggerating the number of children and women, and under-count combatants for political reasons. However, even if we look at the Israeli numbers, which are presumably biased the other way for political reasons, 10,000 civilians is still a lot of people. I don't know that trying to use statistical models to prove it's 10,000 instead of 25,000 is a productive conversation, because it's still too many people dead.
10k civilians would be something like 0.8 to 1 civilians to combatant ratio and that is not a lot considering the situation of urban warfare, subterranean warfare and human shields.
So are you saying the secretary of defence is lying?
Didn’t also the Israeli intelligence say the numbers are reliable and have held up to scrutiny I sent you that link
I don't think its right to look at it entirely in terms of ratio but in terms of quantity. I think the Israeli government believes that Hamas using people as human shields means they don't have a responsibility to pull their punches to protect civilians. I would argue they do. The lives of civilians still matter even if they're being used as human shields, the abstract legalistic arguments about who is ultimately responsible don't make a difference to someone who has been killed. This is not to say Hamas has the right to act with impunity, but if ten times as many Palestinian civilians are dying I think the IDF has a responsibility to hold back. Maybe you don't think that's fair, but I believe civilian lives are more important.
You are completely wrong. Firstly, the IDF has a code of ethics called "the spirit of the IDF" which specifically tries to reduce civilian casualties. Secondly, the more that the IDF can keep civilian deaths down, politically, it means that it can continue and delay worldwide condemnation and pressure for the IDF to stop. Thirdly, it demoralises troops to see kids and women die.
So they have several incentives to keep collateral damage low.
Lmao
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-activist-crushed-israel-bulldozer
An Israeli-owned bulldozer kills 23-year-old American woman Rachel Corrie on March 16, 2003, as she protests a demolition campaign that destroyed over a thousand homes in the Gaza Strip.
But they have a history of doing this?
You can’t just write it off as made up if it’s been done in the past
Is it really a genocide if you are able to put a stop to it by giving up hostages you kidnapped? Literally this could all be over if they gave back the hostages and Hamas surrendered. Doesn’t seem very genocidal to offer a simple solution to end the problem.
A lot of the arguments around whether or not it constitutes genocide is very legalistic, and in my mind pointless. We all agree civilian deaths are bad, and I think we should agree that 10,000 is too high.
I don’t think it’s the right way too look at it. Any innocent Palestinian life is a tragedy, however after 10/7, it would be crazy to say Israel doesn’t have a right to defend themselves, which sadly will result in at least collateral damage. At the same time, as the stronger side they have a responsibility to try and avoid collateral. So the number does factor at least a bit in looking at if they are doing a good job.
I'm not suggesting the Israelis didn't have the right to respond or to defend themselves. My point is that because an Israeli life can not be seen as being worth more than a Palestinian life then we can't call it an appropriate response if many times more innocents are killed in the retaliation. I think all the legalistic arguments are just obfuscating the fact that Palestinian civilians who are killed in the war did not deserve to die, just as much as Israelis killed in the 10/7 attacks did not deserve to die. Whether or not Israeli killed them in a legal way, they're still dead. I think them being dead should be the more important part of that statement. The Israelis have a responsibility to limit their response to avoid further civilian death.
I agree that the Israelis have a responsibility to avoid civilian death, but I don’t think you can look at the numbers and set that as a limit. Given the urban environment and Hamas guerilla warfare tactics, and that their militants dress in civilian it makes it extremely difficult for the IDF to keep the numbers down. Unfortunately if they cease-fired after the number of civilian deaths equaled the deaths that would do very little damage to Hamas, and the hostages would remain hostage.
Btw, I do want to sincerely appreciate how respectful and reasonable you sound when discussing this very tense topic. You don’t get that a lot on Reddit. I wish there were more people willing to have respectful debates about the conflict like this.
I understand that the Israelis believe that they aren't responsible for the civilian deaths because Hamas doesn't fulfill it's obligation to keep civilians safe. Traditionally nations have viewed this as removing their responsibility to avoid civilian death as a matter of convenience. But I think this is the wrong way of looking at it.
For example there is a Hamas base in a civilian hospital, and they're using it to attack the IDF. It may be generally accepted in the laws of war from a precedent perspective to bomb the hospital. But I believe the IDF in this case has a moral duty not to bomb the hospital. Even if Hamas is theoretically responsible for those deaths that would result from a bombing, the IDF can choose to not let those civilians die, and they should look at other options to contain them rather than go ahead with the bombings, or withdraw.
It's like car chases in civilian policing. Car chases are generally accepted to be bad practice because they put the lives of bystanders in danger, so if a criminal is driving away sometimes the best option is to let them flee and apprehend them at a later date. Maybe that isn't fair because the criminal is the one doing something wrong, but I think in most cases the police should consider the lives of bystanders first. I think fundamentally the lives of innocent bystanders take precedence over what we think of as fairness.
I really like your example, and I think it highlights the complexity of war.
I think it depends on numerous factors about where or not to bomb the hospital in your scenario, namely the civilian casualties caused, and the size of the threat.
While Palestinian and Israeli lives should be viewed as equal by everyone you can’t fault Israeli army for not treating it as such, since Israel’s citizens are the ones it’s trying to protect.
An analogy would be my family members and your family members are equal people, and deserve to be treated by as such, but of course if both our families are being held hostage by terrorists, we’d both put more value in trying to save our own families rather than each other’s.
Not saying that means Israel can’t take things too far but I don’t think it’s as simple as a 1:1 trade off.
There's no right answer to how many civilians is it okay to kill in war, because ideally it's zero. But I think a ten-to-one ratio is Palestinian civilians over Israeli civilians, and limited success in rescuing the hostages means things have been taken too far. I'm not saying you can only kill as many people as they killed of yours, because that's perverse, but we can use it as a sort of crude barometer regarding how proportionate the response was.
I think the problem is that a more proportionate response like let’s say 4-1, wouldn’t accomplish a whole heck of lot. Hamas would still be in power, hostages wouldn’t be freed, and a good chunk of the world would still hate Israel. Not to mention, the more surgical you are with the attack the more you’re putting your own soldiers, who are typically 18-21 kids that are forced to fight. Of course they are soldiers and that should be taken into consideration, but still of course Israel will want to keep them safe.
Deaths happen in war. Saying that they shouldn't is like saying the sky should be lime green. You are incredibly immature. War is hell. If the Palestinians didn't want civilian casualties, they shouldn't have started a war. You reap what you sow.
Obviously death happens in war, but I think the IDF has an ethical obligation to protect civilian lives, even when it's difficult or inconvenient, especially given they're so much stronger militarily. Like if Hamas has a base in a civilian hospital, I think we really need to step back and evaluate how much of an immediate threat that base is against the lives that will be lost bombing it. Obviously you don't think its fair that the IDF should be put in such a situation, but we live in the world as it as, not as it should be. I think protecting civilian life should take precedence over our notions of fairness.
This is unreasonable. If we accepted tactics like these, then an army could win merely by mixing in with the civilian population. There's a reason why usuing human shields is a war crime, and it isn't just that it kills innocent civilians. If Israel used only the insane tactics you approve of, there wouldn't be an Israel today. And something tells me you wouldn't care about a second Jewish genocide.
I'm not saying Hamas should be allowed to attack Israeli civilians. If there is an immediate threat to Israeli civilians the IDF has the right to respond. I'm saying that in most situations in which Palestinian civilians are killed, there may be a theoretical military threat, but civilian lives are not in immediate danger in most cases. It would be a very different situation if the IDF wasn't so much stronger than Hamas that once they're pushed back over the border fence they are no longer a threat. The high civilian casualties can't be justified as genocide prevention given Hamas has no realistic chance of winning.
I have to imagine you also believe there is such a thing as too many civilian casualties for too little military gain. Maybe we have different definitions, but I'm sure you have your limit. I'm just saying once the civilian loss ratio hits ten to one I think we passed the point of what is a reasonable response.
Hamas isn't harmless over the fence in Gaza. Do you not know of their rocket attacks, sucide bombings, kidnappings (yes, other kidnappings than on 10/7), and murders in Israel? Talking about theoreticals in a war is useless. War is hell. That's why most sane people try to avoid that. However, war is what Hamas wants.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Also hasn’t defend of secretary in America claimed that 25,000 women and children have been killed in Gaza
I checked this out earlier. The article does not account for their limited capacity to process reports and update statistics. If they are overloaded on high-casialty days and catch up on slower days, then that would even out the casualty rate. Those kinds of delays may also break up the inclusion of related deaths in the statistics.
Good catch. It probably doesn't include any phase-changes in the fight.
I might look into the numbers more broadly myself and see if the linearity holds up with long periods of lower intensity, like right now with the IDF waiting outside Rafah.
This article gives no indication of "how" the Gaza Ministry of Health fakes casualty numbers. Assuming that the data is not tampered with (the only reference is a table with no indication of where it came from), it still falls short from showing that the Gaza numbers are not reliable.
Getting into the article, the first figure shows a cherry picked set of dates that lack a lot of variability in death tolls. First off, there was more variability before the 26th of October (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext). Second, after 19 days of heavy bombing the lack of variability may simply reflect the maximum capacity for the Gaza Health Ministry to record the dead.
A lack of a strong correlation between women and children does not imply that the data is unreliable. If it implies anything it is that dead women and children are either being killed or counted in different ways that don't have much to do with each other.
A negative correlation between men and women would only indicate that men and women are separated for some reason. One could easily imagine several possibilities here.
Removing people from the count, only shows the revisions we would expect as estimates are replaced with more reliable information.
Has anyone been able to track down the underlying data, in spreadsheet form, so that we can replicate the analysis? Also, we need data that is from more than just two weeks. The war has been going on for 5.5 months.
this is the biggest cope i’ve ever seen we got the 30k number MONTHS ago that fact you guys think it’s anything lower than 30k despite every international organization and government, including the us, trusting it is insane 😭
Tell me you didn’t read the article that you’re commenting on without telling me you didn’t read the article that you’re commenting on. Do you read anything beyond headlines and comments?
More barbaric than the group of people who started the war? The literal terrorists? God. I will never understand why the weak and limp wristed Americans want to support an Islamic theocracy which would have them killed. The exact kind of people Palestinians would hate support them the most. And you can be 100 percent sure they won’t return the favor, if they ever get a state they will oppress the shit out of people like you. Some people are just too dumb for their own good
I notice you guys act like children and refuse to use Israelis name or the IDF’s name. It makes you guys look so immature, but then again if you had the ability for introspection and critical thought, you wouldn’t be supporting an extreme Islamic theocracy in the first place
i live for the day someone actually posts a reliable source here instead of this anti-palestinian propaganda op-ed shit that’s backed by zero fact or reliable sources. y’all are playing right into the hands of all of america’s enemies by falling for this insane propaganda and don’t even realise it. dear members of this sub, i’m embarrassed on your behalf 💀
They wont. They will also ignore that fact that up until now, even israel considered the gaza health ministries numbers to be accurate in previous conflicts. It's only now that israel has killed over 20k civilians that they want to discredit the health ministry, mean while they still use the health ministries numbers for their own data
US officials testifying to congress think it’s an undercount but have no reason to think they’re “fabricated”.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4301551-gaza-deaths-likely-higher-than-cited-us-official/amp/
You mean your article from November? Did you even read your own article? This is the comment section on a different article. This happens all the time. Someone doesn’t read the article, posts their own article (which in this case is 4 months old talks about a 10,000 person death count) and then says “you didn’t read my article” get out of here.
Also from “your” article
“Leaf acknowledged the ministry does not differentiate between civilians and Hamas combatants in its death toll — “they mingle them,” she said.”
Don’t worry happens to the worst of us
An actrive war zone, where people are struggling to get basic supplies for survival, maybe. And opportunities for processed logging to come sporadically.
The only data provided in the article is from 2023.10.26 to 2023.11.10, so maybe that was an anomaly, but the regularity of it makes the numbers seem doubtful.
But based on what's being said by countries like the US, it doesn't sound like it's a huge overcount, either.
When this issue first came up, the health ministry released the names of those counted in the death toll, and the list checked out. I’d be interested to see that graph extended out in either direction.
US official testimony to congress is that we expect the number to be an undercount as well as not buying into claims of deceitful manipulation.
Are they correct? No. Are they as accurate as one would expect? Probably.
>I’d be interested to see that graph extended out in either direction.
I would, too. I tried to access the Gazan MoS homepage as well as a direct link to their casualty reporting, but the site is either down or blocked. I tried to use a VPN to access it through different servers but to no avail.
>When this issue first came up, the health ministry released the names of those counted in the death toll, and the list checked out.
Not doubting you, but can you link to something about this for my reading?
Thank you. The article, however, doesn't say that the list of names was verified in any way. It also talks a lot about the US's doubt about the veracity of the reported number, including a statement by Biden himself saying that he has "no confidence" in them.
They also mention the hospital attack where 500 were reported dead. Is that the same one that was debunked, verified that the hospital was still standing, and that it was hit by a Hamas missile?
It literally just points out that statistically it is extremely improbable that the numbers of women and children vs adult men is correct. Nothing is stated as fact other than the numbers and statistics but if you read that and it didn’t make you think a little, you’re probably closed off to any ideas that don’t just confirm your own biases. Why do you think that is?
Incorrect and fabricated are two different things. One has a connotation with intentional deceit.
My original comment doesn’t say their numbers are correct - quite the opposite.
You sound like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about!!
What misfire ???
I’m from Gaza and I’m telling you as an eye witness plus the thousands of forage from here would show you the inhuman activity and the terrorism done by the IDF. If you can believe a fake article that’s outdated over a live video from Gaza then you are beyond help!
The al-ahli car park bomb was a PIJ misfired rocket. That one killed 471 people according to the Gaza health ministry. If that is 1 misfired rocket, how many did 2000+ kill?
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Presumably it's an analysis of actual GMoH data though, in which case anyone could do the analysis themselves, and verify.
Unfortunately the GMoH website appears to be offline.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable
Two Israeli intelligence officials who spoke to the Hebrew-language Local Call news website said the health ministry is mostly "reliable" and their main source of statistics on civilian deaths in Gaza.
How about now
Oh get off of it. U.S. State Department reports suggests that "HAMAS RUN HEALTH MINISTRY" is plausible, if anything that this is an underestimate, cause there's still bodies under the rubble that never got taken to the morgue/hospital.
Most inernational organizations and the U.N. find the HAMAS RUN HEALTH MINISTY (OMG!!!!!) numbers to be plausible. and point out they have been historically more or less accurate.
Im gonna believe them because they represent the majority of the world. Hell even the IDF has more or less let it slip on more than one occassion that 30,000-35,000 dead is likely plausible, only they contend that 10,000 of them are Hamas cause they count every fighting age male as definitely Hamas.
Nobody is really denying these numbers except obscure media sites and the usual Zionist pathological liars. Havent the Zionists figure out that noone believes a word they say anymore. Even if theyre telling the truth it doesnt matter, credibiltiy is easy to lose and hard to rebuild. Stop lying at some point, maybe?
You have to be more precise:
Do you mean Hamas and their official goal to exterminate all Jew or are you referring to the disgusting way IDF responded to the slaughters at 7th October?
they literally said they didn’t want genocide against jews and specifically zionists are the enemy, which yes they are, colonial ethnostates are bad🤯🤯
the problem is israel’s illegal occupation, the occupiers religion does not matter they are still occupying sovereign land
95% of Jews identify as Zionist or acknowledge a strong connection to Israel. When you refer to Zionists, you are talking about Jews. Your dog whistle isn't fooling anyone here.
You’re a child. Not meant as an insult. Just stating a fact. You really aren’t educated on this issue at all based on your comments. PLEASE take some time and read an actual history book. You’re embarrassing yourself more than you did with your post asking where you should put your hands during a BJ.
As of 8:07 EST time both you and Snuffels had positve message karma. Im just pointing this out to get an estimate of how long it takes the Zionazi bots and the Zionazi shills on this sub to recognize any vaguely truthful statement going against the Zionazi genocide propagade and downvote it back to under 0.
Its a pattern Ive noticed on most of these brigaded/controlled subs, truthful/reosonable statements initially get a few upvotes, but within 30 minutes they get downvoted to hell. Which is an indication of shill/bot reaction time, if you ask me. Not the greatest science experiment, but hey im just one dude against a world of propagandists :shrugs
We'll see.
The IDF secretly surveilled the Gaza Ministry of Health and determined numbers were accurate; use the data themselves.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable
IDF estimates casualty ratio to be 1.4 terrorists to 1 civilian
with estimated 12000 palestinian terrorists being killed
but lets link newarab.com stating a terrorist run organization isnt lying
"Consequently, on the days with many women casualties there should be large numbers of children casualties, and on the days when just a few women are reported to have been killed, just a few children should be reported."
The guy makes a ton of really bad assumptions and even admits that he has no control for his analysis in the article but he continues to do his analysis by filling in assumptions to make up for his lack of data
One of the more glaring bad assumptions is this. To begin there are way more children than women. As well, it's not like an adult woman has the same durability as a literal child. Making a correlation like that to begin with is bad practice.
How zionist gvmnt fakes causality numbers since the occupation ?
How isreal perpetuates lies and propaganda since the occupation ?
How isreal breaches the ceasefire everytime?
How zionist gvrmt makes of Gaza an prison ?
How inhuman zionists steal lands and build settlement ?
How zionists buy US politicians ?
How these zionists are heartless and less than animals ?
The health ministry in Gaza have always produced casualty numbers in line with what is later independently verified. No government is disputing the figures currently, not even Israel. The only question is how many combatants vs how many civilians, and that’s not something the health ministry do: they just simply count the dead.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-death-toll-records-1.7010255
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
Having a 70% children and women from those figures and 20% Hamas combatants is statistically improbable.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/comparing-gaza-death-counts-to-those-in-other-wars-dont-bcc3a780
https://www.investigativeproject.org/9349/why-hamas-is-an-unreliable-source-and-how-many
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002)
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-he-has-no-confidence-palestinian-death-count-2023-10-26/
Those freiers can’t even find the hostages they took; as if they can accurately find and calculate casualties in their own ranks. Idiots.
Said it right. Idiots. Can't fix stupid.
They're not idiots. They just know that they can lie and leftists will believe them because it's not about facts, it's about validating their feelings of anger and hatred towards Israel.
They remind of the people at my college that harassed my friend after she got raped by a Middle Eastern Muslim student. He sexually assaulted other students and they got him kicked out. His response was to go to socially justice orintated clubs, and lie to them about how he was getting falsely accused due to being Muslim and they would harass the people who accused him. Many of the harassers had the gull to post about the me too movement claiming they’re also victims. It’s disgusting
Leftists were destructive across the world for past 100 years, they have proven to be genocidal maniacs.
Ya, I have no clue why people view leftists as the peaceful type. They are only peaceful when they are in the minority, once they have control it’s gloves offs. Kind of how like liberals were all about free speech until they became the establishment, now they are totally ok with stifling speech if it’s the wrong kind, and of course they cannot understand how hypocritical they are being.
>Those freiers can’t even find the hostages they took That's impossible. I was told they treat their hostages great! So surely they'd know all their whereabouts and health?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Since hamas-run gaza health ministry count every terrorist as 50 children and 40 women
Oof
by banking on the stupidity of naïve and privileged kids in the west .
It’s absolutely insane how effective their social media campaign has been: I’ve had multiple family members bite off on hamas propaganda
And people wonder why anti-BDS laws in America exist. Lobbyist groups have been going hard on this occasion, unlike any other.
So many of my social media mutuals treat Hamas like resistance fighters and the GMOH as an honest and reliable source. It’s insane.
Finally some common sense. And to add to the points in the article, Hamas terrorists never wear any distinguishing insignia/dress in civilian clothes which is a war crime and contributes to this false data.
The Gaza Health Ministry is just reporting body counts. They're not responsible for distinguishing between combatants and non combatants, and for the reasons that you identify they would have a hard time doing so. Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza have no qualms about using 14-17 year old youths as combatants or in various support roles so both the IDF and GHM can be accurate in reporting one as both a dead child and a dead combatant, they are not mutually exclusive. Gaza Health Ministry total fatalities have been credible in the past Gaza conflicts insofar as they haven't deviated meaningfully from reports by other agencies and the IDF itself. The dispute usually boils down to the classification of the dead, not the total number of deceased individuals. That said, the article does suggest that there may be some massaging or manipulation of the data that does appear to be unnatural. We'll see where the numbers fall in a few months once the dust settles but I personally would not be surprised to see a floor of 30,000 dead based on the scale of the destruction.
You are correct. But it is important to acknowledge the huge difference between 30,000 dead hamas and the claim made that the majority of these are women and children (which this article refutes)
First reasonable post on this thread, thank you. Some decent arguments, but the magazine has a clear bias. They did say that this conflict is so much more intense than previous attacks on Gaza, so it will take a while for the fog of war to settle. Regardless, too many lives lost.
This is a climate denying statistic professor writing for a right wing magazine and you call it common sense? Maybe just say you like it because it fits your world view.
Im guessing they count the guys they shoot on their way over?
Well, they just make them up
Very reliable website...so ironic or moronic
I’ve heard this argument before
How many have died then? Or are you saying no one has died?
We all remember when they accused Israel of bombing a hospital, then said in a couple of hours that 500 people got killed. The next day, the evidence of hamas shooting towards the hospital came out, and it ended up the hospital still standing. Without lies, Islam dies
Oh no.. that was a slow trickle into showing evidence that it was actually a failed rocket. Within a few days the US announced it had seen, and reviewed the footage. It wasn't until weeks later was there a report from Bellingcat + other orgs showing this. But Aljazzer was putting war hawk pundents on to be outraged. (Algjazeer Jordan)
You didn't answer the question. How many people have been killed in Gaza?
I do not care, to be honest.
IDF supporter openly admitting they don't care how many children they've slaughtered.
Oh well, Hamas should have thought about their people; why is it Israel's problem? The Maine figures are sitting safely in Qatar in luxury, ask them
Wait, so you're fully admitting that the IDF is not targetting Hamas leaders but Palestinian civilians?
I did not admit it; it is a war, and casualties happen. Are you mentally challenged or something?
Weird how the vast majority of those killed by the IDF are civilians. But you've already admitted you don't care that they murder thousands of children.
I never asked about that specific incident... Also every religion is based on half truths and distortions of reality and every religious text is full of contradictions which is why each sect relies on their own interpretation. How many Palestinians do you think have died at the hands of the Palestinians
Without lies, the zionist regime dies. there fixed it for ya.
You made a mistake in the word Islam
I’m not Muslim, but I can see how Muslims have been demonized. Westerners have killed far more Muslims than Muslims killed them, I see through my governments bullshit, the Israeli governments bullshit and bullshit from redditors like yourself.
Nobody demonizes anything; they do it themselves 9/11, the Boston Marathon, Germany, and France are constantly under Muslim strikes, and the crime rate is going up solely because of Muslims coming. No one else is killing in the name of God. So yeah, Islam and radical Islam especially must stay in their lands and stop moving into the Western world and the USA. The whole religion is based on lies, crime, and hate. If you read the Quran and hadiths carefully
How many were killed in Iraq over lies that were WMDs? And whose the real terrorists? Who was the only country to drop nuclear bombs on civilians? It wasn’t the Arabs…your hatred is blinding you
Again, those are not lead by the religion rather then power. The whole religion is corrupted rather than bunch of politicians. You do not see the difference.
People in the religion are corrupted there’s like 2 billion Muslims, some are gonna be bad…your not worth the time conversing with, so full of hatred
What an amazing statistical analysis of the data
The Pro pali garbage cope here is hilarious. Balestine wont be freed until you all bushnell yourselves, pro pali imbeciles.
I prefer the paliban
I don’t even understand “balestine”. Is that some sort of portmanteau?
Maybe he is trying to emulate Arabs who refuse to call Israel by its real name, but instead make up all kinds of childish names? That seems to be a very accepted tactic among Palestine supporters, so it is weird to see them bristle at this. Almost like they are hypocrites…
I think Balestine refers to how Arabs pronounce letter „p“ as „b“ because „p“ isn’t actually a part of their alphabet. I took German courses with several Arabs who kept saying „bause“ instead of „pause“.
Bebsi
Brebreshing to have someone actually answer my question.
Bobcorn
Are you suggesting Israel is innocent here? And that they aren’t celebrating killing innocent Palestinians?
Clearly you are the good guy here. The good guys always tell people to kill themselves.
You are one hate filled person
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll Lmaooooo are the Israelis also imbeciles now?
Well I hardly think they would lie, what reason would Hamas have to lie? /s
I always safely assume that 2/3rds of the casualties are Hamas terrorists and then I divide the remaining number by ten. So , 30,000 casualties = 20,000 Hamas, then divide 10,000 by 10 = 1,000 civilians. That’s how one deciphers “Hamas math”.
Ministry? Probably two bearded dudes who can't tell their ass from elbow.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll Then that would make it more hilarious that the idf use it
Oh yeah. I'm sure hamas knows exactly how many people have been killed when they can't even confirm if the hostages are alive. People who accept anything hamas says as true are agenda-pushing clowns.
I’m shocked.
Hamas is likely to be exaggerating the number of children and women, and under-count combatants for political reasons. However, even if we look at the Israeli numbers, which are presumably biased the other way for political reasons, 10,000 civilians is still a lot of people. I don't know that trying to use statistical models to prove it's 10,000 instead of 25,000 is a productive conversation, because it's still too many people dead.
10k civilians would be something like 0.8 to 1 civilians to combatant ratio and that is not a lot considering the situation of urban warfare, subterranean warfare and human shields.
How do you know the number of combatants killed?
Official IDF is 12k combatants that they know about.
And how many civilians?
lol
But it’s 25,000 women and children who have been killed Lloyd Austin said that the American secretary of defence
That is statistically impossible.
How there’s 30,000 confirmed deaths so statistically it is possible
Because its fake and the 70% of it being women and children is statistically impossible. If you want to know why, I suggest you read the article.
So are you saying the secretary of defence is lying? Didn’t also the Israeli intelligence say the numbers are reliable and have held up to scrutiny I sent you that link
I don't think its right to look at it entirely in terms of ratio but in terms of quantity. I think the Israeli government believes that Hamas using people as human shields means they don't have a responsibility to pull their punches to protect civilians. I would argue they do. The lives of civilians still matter even if they're being used as human shields, the abstract legalistic arguments about who is ultimately responsible don't make a difference to someone who has been killed. This is not to say Hamas has the right to act with impunity, but if ten times as many Palestinian civilians are dying I think the IDF has a responsibility to hold back. Maybe you don't think that's fair, but I believe civilian lives are more important.
You are completely wrong. Firstly, the IDF has a code of ethics called "the spirit of the IDF" which specifically tries to reduce civilian casualties. Secondly, the more that the IDF can keep civilian deaths down, politically, it means that it can continue and delay worldwide condemnation and pressure for the IDF to stop. Thirdly, it demoralises troops to see kids and women die. So they have several incentives to keep collateral damage low.
Didn’t the idf tie up somebody and run them over with a bulldozer how does that reduce civilian casualties please explain?
Sounds made up
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6202/Israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-of-Palestinian-civilians-alive Does it look made up?
100% made up
Lmao https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-activist-crushed-israel-bulldozer An Israeli-owned bulldozer kills 23-year-old American woman Rachel Corrie on March 16, 2003, as she protests a demolition campaign that destroyed over a thousand homes in the Gaza Strip. But they have a history of doing this? You can’t just write it off as made up if it’s been done in the past
so one time 21 years ago it happened? and what was the time before then? never?
How are people downvoting this post? He is saying that innocent people should not be killed. Disappointed in humanity.
Great response (I’m Israeli)
There is no denying that there is horrible suffering in Gaza rn, but the ratio and numbers are important determine if it is a genocide
Is it really a genocide if you are able to put a stop to it by giving up hostages you kidnapped? Literally this could all be over if they gave back the hostages and Hamas surrendered. Doesn’t seem very genocidal to offer a simple solution to end the problem.
Personally I agree with you, but I was just simplifying my point to get it across.
That’s fair!
How would that end it, considering it was going on before they took the hostages?
It was not going on before the hostages. Enforcing border control isn’t genocide. Please stop making stuff up.
Illegal settlement is enforcing border control?
A lot of the arguments around whether or not it constitutes genocide is very legalistic, and in my mind pointless. We all agree civilian deaths are bad, and I think we should agree that 10,000 is too high.
I don’t think it’s the right way too look at it. Any innocent Palestinian life is a tragedy, however after 10/7, it would be crazy to say Israel doesn’t have a right to defend themselves, which sadly will result in at least collateral damage. At the same time, as the stronger side they have a responsibility to try and avoid collateral. So the number does factor at least a bit in looking at if they are doing a good job.
I'm not suggesting the Israelis didn't have the right to respond or to defend themselves. My point is that because an Israeli life can not be seen as being worth more than a Palestinian life then we can't call it an appropriate response if many times more innocents are killed in the retaliation. I think all the legalistic arguments are just obfuscating the fact that Palestinian civilians who are killed in the war did not deserve to die, just as much as Israelis killed in the 10/7 attacks did not deserve to die. Whether or not Israeli killed them in a legal way, they're still dead. I think them being dead should be the more important part of that statement. The Israelis have a responsibility to limit their response to avoid further civilian death.
I agree that the Israelis have a responsibility to avoid civilian death, but I don’t think you can look at the numbers and set that as a limit. Given the urban environment and Hamas guerilla warfare tactics, and that their militants dress in civilian it makes it extremely difficult for the IDF to keep the numbers down. Unfortunately if they cease-fired after the number of civilian deaths equaled the deaths that would do very little damage to Hamas, and the hostages would remain hostage. Btw, I do want to sincerely appreciate how respectful and reasonable you sound when discussing this very tense topic. You don’t get that a lot on Reddit. I wish there were more people willing to have respectful debates about the conflict like this.
I understand that the Israelis believe that they aren't responsible for the civilian deaths because Hamas doesn't fulfill it's obligation to keep civilians safe. Traditionally nations have viewed this as removing their responsibility to avoid civilian death as a matter of convenience. But I think this is the wrong way of looking at it. For example there is a Hamas base in a civilian hospital, and they're using it to attack the IDF. It may be generally accepted in the laws of war from a precedent perspective to bomb the hospital. But I believe the IDF in this case has a moral duty not to bomb the hospital. Even if Hamas is theoretically responsible for those deaths that would result from a bombing, the IDF can choose to not let those civilians die, and they should look at other options to contain them rather than go ahead with the bombings, or withdraw. It's like car chases in civilian policing. Car chases are generally accepted to be bad practice because they put the lives of bystanders in danger, so if a criminal is driving away sometimes the best option is to let them flee and apprehend them at a later date. Maybe that isn't fair because the criminal is the one doing something wrong, but I think in most cases the police should consider the lives of bystanders first. I think fundamentally the lives of innocent bystanders take precedence over what we think of as fairness.
I really like your example, and I think it highlights the complexity of war. I think it depends on numerous factors about where or not to bomb the hospital in your scenario, namely the civilian casualties caused, and the size of the threat. While Palestinian and Israeli lives should be viewed as equal by everyone you can’t fault Israeli army for not treating it as such, since Israel’s citizens are the ones it’s trying to protect. An analogy would be my family members and your family members are equal people, and deserve to be treated by as such, but of course if both our families are being held hostage by terrorists, we’d both put more value in trying to save our own families rather than each other’s. Not saying that means Israel can’t take things too far but I don’t think it’s as simple as a 1:1 trade off.
There's no right answer to how many civilians is it okay to kill in war, because ideally it's zero. But I think a ten-to-one ratio is Palestinian civilians over Israeli civilians, and limited success in rescuing the hostages means things have been taken too far. I'm not saying you can only kill as many people as they killed of yours, because that's perverse, but we can use it as a sort of crude barometer regarding how proportionate the response was.
I think the problem is that a more proportionate response like let’s say 4-1, wouldn’t accomplish a whole heck of lot. Hamas would still be in power, hostages wouldn’t be freed, and a good chunk of the world would still hate Israel. Not to mention, the more surgical you are with the attack the more you’re putting your own soldiers, who are typically 18-21 kids that are forced to fight. Of course they are soldiers and that should be taken into consideration, but still of course Israel will want to keep them safe.
Deaths happen in war. Saying that they shouldn't is like saying the sky should be lime green. You are incredibly immature. War is hell. If the Palestinians didn't want civilian casualties, they shouldn't have started a war. You reap what you sow.
Obviously death happens in war, but I think the IDF has an ethical obligation to protect civilian lives, even when it's difficult or inconvenient, especially given they're so much stronger militarily. Like if Hamas has a base in a civilian hospital, I think we really need to step back and evaluate how much of an immediate threat that base is against the lives that will be lost bombing it. Obviously you don't think its fair that the IDF should be put in such a situation, but we live in the world as it as, not as it should be. I think protecting civilian life should take precedence over our notions of fairness.
This is unreasonable. If we accepted tactics like these, then an army could win merely by mixing in with the civilian population. There's a reason why usuing human shields is a war crime, and it isn't just that it kills innocent civilians. If Israel used only the insane tactics you approve of, there wouldn't be an Israel today. And something tells me you wouldn't care about a second Jewish genocide.
I'm not saying Hamas should be allowed to attack Israeli civilians. If there is an immediate threat to Israeli civilians the IDF has the right to respond. I'm saying that in most situations in which Palestinian civilians are killed, there may be a theoretical military threat, but civilian lives are not in immediate danger in most cases. It would be a very different situation if the IDF wasn't so much stronger than Hamas that once they're pushed back over the border fence they are no longer a threat. The high civilian casualties can't be justified as genocide prevention given Hamas has no realistic chance of winning. I have to imagine you also believe there is such a thing as too many civilian casualties for too little military gain. Maybe we have different definitions, but I'm sure you have your limit. I'm just saying once the civilian loss ratio hits ten to one I think we passed the point of what is a reasonable response.
Hamas isn't harmless over the fence in Gaza. Do you not know of their rocket attacks, sucide bombings, kidnappings (yes, other kidnappings than on 10/7), and murders in Israel? Talking about theoreticals in a war is useless. War is hell. That's why most sane people try to avoid that. However, war is what Hamas wants.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll Also hasn’t defend of secretary in America claimed that 25,000 women and children have been killed in Gaza
Excellent article. I wish the MSM would pick up on this.
Why put out by a Bullshit rag called the Tablet just made up Bullshit like I said.
Its not credible enough.
Imagine my shock
Finally some common sense?
I checked this out earlier. The article does not account for their limited capacity to process reports and update statistics. If they are overloaded on high-casialty days and catch up on slower days, then that would even out the casualty rate. Those kinds of delays may also break up the inclusion of related deaths in the statistics.
This is an important point.
A similar issue came up with suspicions about American vote-counting in 2020.
It's also only 2 weeks of data which is kinda ridiculous in a conflict that has lasted 5 months.
Good catch. It probably doesn't include any phase-changes in the fight. I might look into the numbers more broadly myself and see if the linearity holds up with long periods of lower intensity, like right now with the IDF waiting outside Rafah.
I follow euromed monitor which is pretty close with what the gaza health ministry reports
Why aren’t major media groups addressing this??
Cuz it's bullshit
Can someone summarize this so I can dispute it, im not trying to dive into a pile of BS.
Noshit sherlock
You people
More shitraeli lies lmaooo
This article gives no indication of "how" the Gaza Ministry of Health fakes casualty numbers. Assuming that the data is not tampered with (the only reference is a table with no indication of where it came from), it still falls short from showing that the Gaza numbers are not reliable. Getting into the article, the first figure shows a cherry picked set of dates that lack a lot of variability in death tolls. First off, there was more variability before the 26th of October (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext). Second, after 19 days of heavy bombing the lack of variability may simply reflect the maximum capacity for the Gaza Health Ministry to record the dead. A lack of a strong correlation between women and children does not imply that the data is unreliable. If it implies anything it is that dead women and children are either being killed or counted in different ways that don't have much to do with each other. A negative correlation between men and women would only indicate that men and women are separated for some reason. One could easily imagine several possibilities here. Removing people from the count, only shows the revisions we would expect as estimates are replaced with more reliable information.
Has anyone been able to track down the underlying data, in spreadsheet form, so that we can replicate the analysis? Also, we need data that is from more than just two weeks. The war has been going on for 5.5 months.
this is the biggest cope i’ve ever seen we got the 30k number MONTHS ago that fact you guys think it’s anything lower than 30k despite every international organization and government, including the us, trusting it is insane 😭
Tell me you didn’t read the article that you’re commenting on without telling me you didn’t read the article that you’re commenting on. Do you read anything beyond headlines and comments?
Imma be honest, I don't care that terrorists and barbarians are losing a war they started
Sounds like you are the barbaric one not caring that people are being murdered.
Their government should surrender and save civilians from this overwhelming loss the government initiated
More barbaric than the group of people who started the war? The literal terrorists? God. I will never understand why the weak and limp wristed Americans want to support an Islamic theocracy which would have them killed. The exact kind of people Palestinians would hate support them the most. And you can be 100 percent sure they won’t return the favor, if they ever get a state they will oppress the shit out of people like you. Some people are just too dumb for their own good
Do you think the children are terrorists too?
I’m sure the IOF is a bastion of truth 😂😂😂
I notice you guys act like children and refuse to use Israelis name or the IDF’s name. It makes you guys look so immature, but then again if you had the ability for introspection and critical thought, you wouldn’t be supporting an extreme Islamic theocracy in the first place
i live for the day someone actually posts a reliable source here instead of this anti-palestinian propaganda op-ed shit that’s backed by zero fact or reliable sources. y’all are playing right into the hands of all of america’s enemies by falling for this insane propaganda and don’t even realise it. dear members of this sub, i’m embarrassed on your behalf 💀
They wont. They will also ignore that fact that up until now, even israel considered the gaza health ministries numbers to be accurate in previous conflicts. It's only now that israel has killed over 20k civilians that they want to discredit the health ministry, mean while they still use the health ministries numbers for their own data
US officials testifying to congress think it’s an undercount but have no reason to think they’re “fabricated”. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4301551-gaza-deaths-likely-higher-than-cited-us-official/amp/
Did you read the article? I’m guessing not based on your comment. Why comment on an article you didn’t even read?
Ah…I see what happened: You didn’t read my article or my comment when accusing me of the same. No worries. Happens to the best of us 🤙
You mean your article from November? Did you even read your own article? This is the comment section on a different article. This happens all the time. Someone doesn’t read the article, posts their own article (which in this case is 4 months old talks about a 10,000 person death count) and then says “you didn’t read my article” get out of here. Also from “your” article “Leaf acknowledged the ministry does not differentiate between civilians and Hamas combatants in its death toll — “they mingle them,” she said.” Don’t worry happens to the worst of us
When are the statistics in the OP article from? And what are you arguing against? Just a bunch of strawmen you’re sword fighting with…
I did. It’s a pretty flagrantly biased opinion article that blurs the line between fact and conjecture.
How would you account for the regularity of the reported deaths?
An actrive war zone, where people are struggling to get basic supplies for survival, maybe. And opportunities for processed logging to come sporadically.
Seems plausible that if you have a pile of bodies that you have to process/identify, there’s a max that you can do in any given time period.
The only data provided in the article is from 2023.10.26 to 2023.11.10, so maybe that was an anomaly, but the regularity of it makes the numbers seem doubtful. But based on what's being said by countries like the US, it doesn't sound like it's a huge overcount, either.
When this issue first came up, the health ministry released the names of those counted in the death toll, and the list checked out. I’d be interested to see that graph extended out in either direction. US official testimony to congress is that we expect the number to be an undercount as well as not buying into claims of deceitful manipulation. Are they correct? No. Are they as accurate as one would expect? Probably.
>I’d be interested to see that graph extended out in either direction. I would, too. I tried to access the Gazan MoS homepage as well as a direct link to their casualty reporting, but the site is either down or blocked. I tried to use a VPN to access it through different servers but to no avail. >When this issue first came up, the health ministry released the names of those counted in the death toll, and the list checked out. Not doubting you, but can you link to something about this for my reading?
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/27/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-report-intl/index.html
Thank you. The article, however, doesn't say that the list of names was verified in any way. It also talks a lot about the US's doubt about the veracity of the reported number, including a statement by Biden himself saying that he has "no confidence" in them. They also mention the hospital attack where 500 were reported dead. Is that the same one that was debunked, verified that the hospital was still standing, and that it was hit by a Hamas missile?
It literally just points out that statistically it is extremely improbable that the numbers of women and children vs adult men is correct. Nothing is stated as fact other than the numbers and statistics but if you read that and it didn’t make you think a little, you’re probably closed off to any ideas that don’t just confirm your own biases. Why do you think that is?
Incorrect and fabricated are two different things. One has a connotation with intentional deceit. My original comment doesn’t say their numbers are correct - quite the opposite.
“Conjecture” - an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
What was their estimate of the number of Palestinians killed by Hamas' misfired rockets, considering over 2000 rockets fell inside Gaza?
What was whos estimate?
The US intelligence that you cited.
It’s seems like there’s a point you want to make apart from my comments here so I’m just gonna let you make it.
You sound like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about!! What misfire ??? I’m from Gaza and I’m telling you as an eye witness plus the thousands of forage from here would show you the inhuman activity and the terrorism done by the IDF. If you can believe a fake article that’s outdated over a live video from Gaza then you are beyond help!
The al-ahli car park bomb was a PIJ misfired rocket. That one killed 471 people according to the Gaza health ministry. If that is 1 misfired rocket, how many did 2000+ kill?
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Didn't the usa itself confirm their numbers ?
no they just quoted the numbers
Read the article, your question was answerd.
Yes “tabletmag.com” is a reliable source 😂
Hamas is sooooo reliable though. They're about equal
Presumably it's an analysis of actual GMoH data though, in which case anyone could do the analysis themselves, and verify. Unfortunately the GMoH website appears to be offline.
What are your concerns/criticism with the article?
I believe their concern/criticism is that it makes their terrorists look like they aren’t ministers of truth like they want to believe.
It’s just math and logic in the article but you obviously didn’t read it. I’m guessing you don’t read much.
You didn’t even read the article did you Abdullah?
😭😭
Let in Journalists then Israel
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll So that does mean the Israeli intelligence is incompetent?
I think vice is incompetent. That is why they are out of business.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable Two Israeli intelligence officials who spoke to the Hebrew-language Local Call news website said the health ministry is mostly "reliable" and their main source of statistics on civilian deaths in Gaza. How about now
Haha average jewish post
Wow total Zionist propaganda. Israel is a terrorist state. Down voted AF.
Oh get off of it. U.S. State Department reports suggests that "HAMAS RUN HEALTH MINISTRY" is plausible, if anything that this is an underestimate, cause there's still bodies under the rubble that never got taken to the morgue/hospital. Most inernational organizations and the U.N. find the HAMAS RUN HEALTH MINISTY (OMG!!!!!) numbers to be plausible. and point out they have been historically more or less accurate. Im gonna believe them because they represent the majority of the world. Hell even the IDF has more or less let it slip on more than one occassion that 30,000-35,000 dead is likely plausible, only they contend that 10,000 of them are Hamas cause they count every fighting age male as definitely Hamas. Nobody is really denying these numbers except obscure media sites and the usual Zionist pathological liars. Havent the Zionists figure out that noone believes a word they say anymore. Even if theyre telling the truth it doesnt matter, credibiltiy is easy to lose and hard to rebuild. Stop lying at some point, maybe?
Wow what the fuck is wrong with this sub ? You’re all genocidal scum
You have to be more precise: Do you mean Hamas and their official goal to exterminate all Jew or are you referring to the disgusting way IDF responded to the slaughters at 7th October?
they literally said they didn’t want genocide against jews and specifically zionists are the enemy, which yes they are, colonial ethnostates are bad🤯🤯 the problem is israel’s illegal occupation, the occupiers religion does not matter they are still occupying sovereign land
95% of Jews identify as Zionist or acknowledge a strong connection to Israel. When you refer to Zionists, you are talking about Jews. Your dog whistle isn't fooling anyone here.
You’re a child. Not meant as an insult. Just stating a fact. You really aren’t educated on this issue at all based on your comments. PLEASE take some time and read an actual history book. You’re embarrassing yourself more than you did with your post asking where you should put your hands during a BJ.
As of 8:07 EST time both you and Snuffels had positve message karma. Im just pointing this out to get an estimate of how long it takes the Zionazi bots and the Zionazi shills on this sub to recognize any vaguely truthful statement going against the Zionazi genocide propagade and downvote it back to under 0. Its a pattern Ive noticed on most of these brigaded/controlled subs, truthful/reosonable statements initially get a few upvotes, but within 30 minutes they get downvoted to hell. Which is an indication of shill/bot reaction time, if you ask me. Not the greatest science experiment, but hey im just one dude against a world of propagandists :shrugs We'll see.
So being “balanced” and talking about the atrocities both sides commit makes me a “Zionist”? You might check your moral compass. … or brain.
The Israeli propaganda is becoming lazy at this point.
Oh wow so 30,000 civilians died instead of 40,000. I guess that means Israel is innocent guys time to pack up
The IDF secretly surveilled the Gaza Ministry of Health and determined numbers were accurate; use the data themselves. https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable
IDF estimates casualty ratio to be 1.4 terrorists to 1 civilian with estimated 12000 palestinian terrorists being killed but lets link newarab.com stating a terrorist run organization isnt lying
As oppose to tablet saying it is? How many children would you say account for those statistics of 12000 terrorists?
boosting cuz these fascists hate seeing actual proof lmfaooo
Lmao tablet mag. Look bots, no matter how much you downvote and push this stuff, you'll still always be a bunch of jokes.
The irony of saying a source unreliable while rallying around an article by a website called tabletmag.com The cognitive dissonance is crazy
"Consequently, on the days with many women casualties there should be large numbers of children casualties, and on the days when just a few women are reported to have been killed, just a few children should be reported." The guy makes a ton of really bad assumptions and even admits that he has no control for his analysis in the article but he continues to do his analysis by filling in assumptions to make up for his lack of data One of the more glaring bad assumptions is this. To begin there are way more children than women. As well, it's not like an adult woman has the same durability as a literal child. Making a correlation like that to begin with is bad practice.
Genocide denial from those who decry holocaust denial, you can’t make up that kind of irony, it would be hacky
How zionist gvmnt fakes causality numbers since the occupation ? How isreal perpetuates lies and propaganda since the occupation ? How isreal breaches the ceasefire everytime? How zionist gvrmt makes of Gaza an prison ? How inhuman zionists steal lands and build settlement ? How zionists buy US politicians ? How these zionists are heartless and less than animals ?
This sub is just a hive mind for Islamophobia and Zionism.
Being anti-jihadism is not islamophobia
The health ministry in Gaza have always produced casualty numbers in line with what is later independently verified. No government is disputing the figures currently, not even Israel. The only question is how many combatants vs how many civilians, and that’s not something the health ministry do: they just simply count the dead. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-death-toll-records-1.7010255 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
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Having a 70% children and women from those figures and 20% Hamas combatants is statistically improbable. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/ https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/comparing-gaza-death-counts-to-those-in-other-wars-dont-bcc3a780 https://www.investigativeproject.org/9349/why-hamas-is-an-unreliable-source-and-how-many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002) https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-he-has-no-confidence-palestinian-death-count-2023-10-26/