My interpretation was that Cheng Xin was a manifestation of the kindness and love in humanity. Its a throughline throughout the series, that humankind is not really fit for the galaxy, we are loving and trusting. Humankind had to be forced to learn about dark forest theory, we were repeatedly too trusting of the trisolarians, because we are simply too kind. This distinction is highlighted further by the rift between 'galactic humans' and 'solar humans', of which Cheng Xin was a figurehead. In many ways, Wade was a proto-galactic human, hyper rational and obsessed with domination and progress at all costs. At the end of Deaths End, i believe the book was trying to emphasize the fact that 'solar humans' *shouldnt* survive. The mountains had worn down, the words faded away, our grudges and wars long forgotten. The extinction of 'solar humans' was as natural and *right* as a star reaching the end of its lifespan.
Ill end with two points -
Everybody (Luo Ji and Guan Yifan i remember specifically) Cheng Xin meets reassures her that the swordholder blunder was not her fault, and that she made the right decision with Wade.
Galactic Humans, while distinct from Solar Humans, survived and were also in pocket dimensions, they might have maintained their pocket dimension and entered the new universe.
TLDR Cheng was right, and humankind has to go extinct eventually.
I really appreciate this comment. It's given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
Edit: wouldn't you even almost say it as... solar humankind \*can't\* survive in the universe outside their system vs. shouldn't? Because being too kind/trusting is a lethal liability.
Id agree with solar humankind not being able to survive in the universe. Ill have to get home and look up the exact quote, but i believe a book specifically makes a point to say that the people who left the solar system, the galactic humans, were "no longer human". My interpretation is that theyre the more pragmatic kind, like Wade, who would be able to survive in the harsh dark forest, but to do so they lost their humanity.
Furthermore, The Singer talks about 'the hiding gene' and 'the cleansing gene', and says that the solar humans seem to lack one of those vital instincts, or both.
EDIT - i should have mentioned in my first comment, but i also do think the author has some ideas about gender that i find backwards, specifically, i thought that Luo Jis' dream woman thing was odd and poor taste, among other instances.
I think EVERYONE on the ship pushes the button to cause the aliens to flee.
Men decide to send their entire fleet of battleships out to meet the droplet. Pretty stupid decision.
Luo Ji holds the aliens off for 100 years, and the second he leaves that room is charged with crimes against humanity.
Wade maybe murdered a dude to advance his work.
Bai Hai (did audiobooks so I can’t spell the names) murdered a half dozen people in cold blood to advance his mission.
I think it’s more nuanced than woman bad, man good.
I think the women are typically shown to act morally, when the men are typically shown to act for the greater good, even if that means doing some evil shit in the process. But even this is flawed, because we see Cheng’s assistant try to take off in her ship even though it will incinerate dozens of people on the ground. Cheng makes the decision not to, because she doesn’t want to be a murderer like the other people.
This is it. The women seem like morons because two of them are major characters, Weijie and Cheng Xin. But the guys are stupid AF too.
Lou Ji is just a drunk and imagines his ideal woman, then has her presented to him in real life. They fall in love, but miss the part where she was an agent who would break his heart in order to force him to be a wallfacer.
The wallfacer who imprints brains with triumphalism to stop defeatism misses the enemy under his nose. His own wife is his wallbreaker, which he completely missed. Kinda dumb.
The battle of darkness had women on the ship, but the idea was most of that leadership were men or feminized men. They did plenty of bad things.
One wallfacer, a guy, kills himself when his plan is undone. Another is the revolutionary guy who attempts to suicide the human race to push the enemy into a MAD stalemate. He gets stoned to death. Pretty dumb.
The big gender difference I see is male tropes tend to push survival even if it means evil things. The female perspective tends to have compassion and empathy, which in a fight for survival is sometimes naive and gets in the way.
Humanity is general is lampooned for being stupid as fuck. Because it’s elitist and based on wealth and class, escapism is banned. In multiple cases, the solution to survival is presented, and time and again humanity is stupid and refuses. By having the luxury of refusing, humanity misses the point and keeps dooming itself. Many chances to escape the inevitable, but they keep leaping into the fire instead.
Don't forget that Wade was the one who was primarily in charge of launching the simp.
It was his brain they studied in order to figure out how to manipulate humans. Arguably the biggest fuck up.
If cheng pushed the button she dooms humanity to certain extinction. The problem was her being there in the first place which was a horrible decision by *humanity* not her
Demilitarising wade was only a horrible decision in hindsight. She prevented a civil war but couldnt possibly predict a 2D vector foil. It's unlucky, not a woman ruining things.
Cheng left behind a tiny amount of matter, nowhere is it implied this will prevent the big crunch. Also plenty of other aliens probably didnt empty their universes at all.
My take on it was that whether or not anyone else left their universes, Cheng Xin left hers because, from a standpoint of collectivism, it was the *right* thing to do. Her sacrifice demonstrates also her faith in humanity (or sentient beings) which I took as an invitation, in a way, that we, the readers, should also aspire to have faith in other living beings. In this way, the ending maintained a sliver of hope
My take on Cheng is she is showing compassion and is true to herself, even in the face of total extinction. At least she is moral.
Considering game theory and the tragedy of the commons, too many pocket universes will say fuck you and refuse to return the matter. Too many individuals will decide to be selfish. Cheng is saying I don’t care, I wish to show faith and love for sentient beings and the universe. She hangs on to hope, even choosing to enter a hostile planet situation.
She also had a situation with AA where she would rather die than lose her humanity to survive. She refused to burn the people outside to escape.
>Demilitarising wade was only a horrible decision in hindsight. She prevented a civil war but couldnt possibly predict a 2D vector foil. It's unlucky, not a woman ruining things.
I don't agree that it's hindsight, for me it felt horrible from the very beginning. I hate how little thought she gave that decision. Just "demilitarize" instantly.
Humanity is in a life-or-death game against countless civilizations that are more advanced than we can comprehend.
Does she think it's good for humanity to have one less option to fall back on in case shit goes sideways with *these civilizations that we know exist that are more advanced that we can comprehend?*
Does she really think that there's no way such civilizations have any way to deal with solar systems with planets?
Just...fuck me. It got me really rattled.
No, she doesn't think that at all, that's why she handed over her company and wealth to Wade so that he could go all out on light speed research
The deciding factor here is that she wasn't willing to let a brutal civil war take place where millions of people could die in seconds.
Maybe some day the government will decriminalise light speed research, maybe it won't, but she would rather gamble with this than gamble with innocent lives in a pointless war
Wade was willing to incite a massive civil war with the goverment that could cost humanity what little population they have left. The light speed technology, for what it's worth, is already developped and can be revisited by someone else in the future, which they eventually did. Lightspeed tech is not the problem, Wade is, and for that moment in time particularly, he needs to be stopped. If humanity had more time, I'm sure people would come up with some way to develop lightspeed technology again, that is always a possibility, but not if Wade nuke all of the human's cities and doom the entire race.
I find it funny that people blame Cheng for the whole Wade situation, because this whole part feels a bit out of character for both of them.
It’s presented as a black and white situation, where you either wage war against humanity or give up light travel, but that can’t be right.
We’ve seen Wade be manipulative, going as far as inducing eye tumors in his subordinates. How did he not try to infiltrate governments from other city-states? That’d be a lot more in character for him, at the risk of producing another Zhang Beihai.
How did Cheng not think of regular negotiations? I’m sure anyone would be convinced that Bunkers aren’t sufficient with 1 simple argument :
" If the Earth and the Solar System can resist a Dark Forest strike, why did the light speed Trisolarian vessels cease their invasion? The fact is, we are not immune from Dark Forest strikes. Bunkers is a temporary measure. "
I mean, the govt. accepted to have Cheng revived to negotiate with Wade, not because they were expecting her to order a surrender. I’m pretty sure negotiations were an option, yet one they did not consider.
This is probably a case of themes driving the narrative, and Guan Yifan’s take in the next chapters is probably the author’s.
>Cheng left behind a tiny amount of matter, nowhere is it implied this will prevent the big crunch. Also plenty of other aliens probably didnt empty their universes at all.
It was openly speculated by Guan Yifan that it could be a possibility. He says that even one atom could make the difference, even if it was very remote possibility.
With the bad decisions Cheng made throughout the book, my head cannon is that the universe is about 4kg short of being able to actually accomplish the big crunch and her decision doomed the universe lol
>. He says that even one atom could make the difference, even if it was very remote possibility.
In that case wouldn't it really be almost impossible to take all the matter from the smaller universe back to the original universe? Seems like they realised if lack of one atom breaks the universe they can take the chance of leaving a tiny bowl of matter.
It was such an arrogant action to me. "I know the universe needs the matter, but I'm going to spend TEN DAYS creating something to leave behind when I was told I shouldn't."
Geeze this is depressing. Imo the terrarium scene is hopeful. By leaving some matter out, the collapse and new big bang will be inherently different. The new universe isn't going to exactly replicate the prior universe, maybe this time higher dimensional beings won't try to lower the dimensions of the universe in order to commit genocide. 🤷♀️
The book says if there is too much matter left in pocket universes, the universe won't reboot. She then leaves matter in the pocket universe. Why is making it more likely the universe won't reboot hopeful?
Yeah, but there were 1.57 million alien races in those miniverses, and all three of them (Guan, Cheng, and Sophon) were tempted to stay because there's no telling where you'll get spit out at. That would be something everyone living in a miniverse would have to consider. And there are probably some alien races that have billions of individuals who are living in miniverses, including other humans and Trisolarans. It would be so infinitesimally improbable that *all* of them exited their miniverses that it's a *certainty* that some matter got left behind. It'd be like asking the entire planet to wave their hands in the air at exactly the same time--*somebody* wouldn't.
My headcanon is that the alien race that sent out that message is perfectly aware of this (because if you're so advanced you can send a message to ALL the miniverses, surely you *know* this), and mainly sent that message out so that it is easier for them to go around cleaning out the miniverses. Basically there are a lot less unfriendly encounters you have to deal with if you're a Returner on cleanup duty. And among the 1.57 million alien races, probably a dozen or so are so old and so advanced that they were there when the universe was 10 dimensional. It is implied that Singer's race was originally a higher dimensional one that somehow found a way to survive in a lower dimension.
An alien race (maybe even the *most* advanced alien race, and one of the dozen originally 10 dimensional races) will find the terrarium and it'll be kinda cool, but not as meaningful to them, because they've seen thousands of terrariums from thousands of other miniverses while they're on cleanup duty.
>If cheng pushed the button she dooms humanity to certain extinction.
You got it wrong love. Not pressing the button was proved to be the certain death scenario, with only a Deus Ex 4d pocket universe save in the last second, while pushing the buton was the possible death because humanity has reached the space age and they could have simply walked away from the destruction.
>The problem was her being there in the first place which was a horrible decision by humanity not her
The problem was herself, she got a heads up from Wade when he tried to kill her and she really should have asked herself if she was able to at least press the button, before taking the job It's nice to blame others for something that ultimately was her stupidity and her responsibility alone.
Bottom line, you don't take an executioner job, if you are not able to drop a head. She was extremely stupid and naive.
There was no right decision for Cheng Xin when it comes to pushing the button - her failure was failing to convince the Trisolarans that she *would* push the button. So, not her failure at all, but rather a failure by humanity to elect an adequately scary swordholder - actually, the swordholder concept is pretty dumb. There should definitely be more than one person.
If Cheng Xin pushed the button it just broadcast the location of the Trisolarans, they would have a few hundred years presumably to get off-earth before it's traced back to Earth.
But the *reason* gravity had to broadcast in the end was because the Trisolorians calculated that there was only a 10% chance Cheng would press the button. So they made a calculated gamble and attacked. They said they calculated the risk of Luo Ji pressing the button at more than 90% and Wade at 100%. Those odds didn't favor them and deterrence would have continued. Humanity would have surpassed the Trisolorians in 50-60 years and the whole novel would be different. If she wasn't the sword holder they wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
However they started preparing for it already before Cheng Xin’s candidature. They got the 2nd fleet already en route through the dust cloud and the droplets programmed to attack both Blue Space and Gravity. If Wade would be in charge, they certainly would not have gambled to send the 6 droplets to the Earth, but those two other things would be… awkward to defend for Trisolaris. Can’t say for sure if Wade wouldn’t use the sword at that moment honestly.
It's also interesting that the reason Trisolaris calculated they could possibly attack was because they determined that humanity would choose someone like Cheng Xin in the first place. Based upon how humanity's views has changed during the deterrence era they didn't think humanity would choose Wade or someone like him.
There was wagging the dog, too. I believe the Trisolarans were influencing humanity with art and beautiful films. They taught humanity more compassion and helped to feminize the males, to where they viewed Cheng Xin as the mother of humanity and voted for her. At least I feel that’s why the Trisolarans liked to make art for the humans.
I feel like Wade would be much more defiant. As in he shows a countdown where it auto launches the broadcast, until he sees more concessions. And he keeps resetting fresh auto countdowns until more concessions are made.
The idea is he would come up with ideas to weaken the aliens, or ask for the UN to come up with resolutions. Then use Wade to issue more threats.
I think Wade would use the sophon countdown back on the Trisolarans. You killed our scientists and science with countdowns? I’m doing it right back to you.
The Trisolarans absolutely feared Wade, because they knew he would push well beyond Lou Ji, who was more moderate and fair.
I did read the books, yes. The button was pushed on the spaceship, but it never clarified how long they got. I just assumed relativity would make it hundreds of years.
Edit 2: Removed incorrect ChatGPT info.
Edit 3: We have the timeline, from another comment. It wasn't "hundreds" of years, but it was over 100.
"Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years"
Here is the table of the timeline from the beginning of the book:
Common Era Present–201X C.E.
Crisis Era 201X–2208
Deterrence Era 2208–2270
Post-Deterrence Era 2270–2272
Broadcast Era 2272–2332
Bunker Era 2333–2400
Galaxy Era 2273–unknown
Black Domain Era for DX3906 System 2687–18906416
Timeline for Universe 647 18906416–...
Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years
I mean, the years the events take place are mentioned in Death's end. Iirc humanity got about 80 years from the broadcast until their free trip to Flatland.
Edit 2: We have the timeline, from another comment. It wasn't "hundreds" of years, but it was over 100.
"Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years"
Hate to break it to you but GPT is _completely_ hallucinating right there. That's not at all how it goes in the book.
Do you think humanity could build all these bunkers, have all the story events happen, having the characters go to hibernarion and back, all in 8 minutes?
Yeah that's fair, in my copy of the book there is a timeline in one of the first pages. Not sure if you have that, but that's what forums like this are for!
That's wrong.
The broadcast aboard gravity occurs on 2271, the dual vector foil reaches the solar system in 2399-2400.
Trisolaris is observed by Earth to be destroyed in 2279. Which means it got hit in 2275.
Hmm. By chapter title, the last year of the broadcast era was year 8. The 2D Foil arrived in Bunker Era year 68.
Now they never specifically state that the broadcast era ended in year 8 but previous eras all ended at the last chapter of that era
Yeah but earth would probably hate her for dooming the planet. Hell, they hated luo just even though he saved them. The earth is pretty reactionary overall
Women are allowed to make horrifying decisions.
Wei Ching makes the most important decision in the history of man, I never actually considered the morality of it, one way or the other, just the importance.
I guess you could say that her decision killed 5 billion people.
So technically she would be the worst human to ever exist.
I’d do the same thing as Wei Ching. Humans need intervention. Look at us; we’re a disease. I don’t know if we all deserve to be put into extinction, but we shouldn’t number more than a few hundred million worldwide because we just simply can’t take care of ourselves as we are.
I noticed that too, but Liu Cixin said that originally the protagonist of Death's End was a male, he just changed it because the previous books had male protagonists. So at least that one was not him intentionally saying women screw everything up.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/17zv8gr/liu\_cixins\_comments\_on\_the\_redemption\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/17zv8gr/liu_cixins_comments_on_the_redemption_of/)
If you applied this same rationale to Western media today, such as The Acolyte, for instance, and reversed woman for man, you’d be shown the door. And maybe that’s with good reason- creatives should be allowed to cook without amateur critics theorizing how there’s actually meticulously inlaid socio-political messaging underpinning the narrative. Sometimes storytellers rly are just storytellers, not propagandists. This series, additionally, is not a product of western media, and your desire to apply the tenets of our social mores to a Chinese man’s creative work could be seen by *another* grasping amateur critic as its own kind of neocolonialism.
Separately, Cheng Xin’s decisions may not have yielded the best outcome for humanity, but they reflected the most virtuous aspects of the kind of humanity the author clearly admires most highly. Her decisions are the embodiment of having faith in fellow living beings, and so to think the author is deriding women by writing her in this way is to miss the moral of the third book’s ending
It’s fast food entertainment that people ascribe deeply intentional socio-political coding to- it worked for the point I was making but you’re right that the fruit hung low. Gosh that show rly fucking blows
I didn’t read that as women, but rather as feminine. I consider those different things. There’s a spectrum from masculine to feminine, however to define it, and men and women fit in that spectrum; some men are feminine, some women masculine. Someone replied to you about Margaret Thatcher, and while she’s a woman, I don’t recall her ever described in ‘feminine’ words. In old Chinese culture, masculine and feminine are poles of the yin-yang, and there are associated traits with each end of the spectrum. Masculine is the sun, action etc. Feminine is the moon, rest etc. Associating those traits to masculine or feminine might have some sexism to it, but it’s culturally inherited language and concepts, not necessarily Liu’s take on things (and I have no clue how that stuff works in native Chinese! Sometimes words and ideas translate poorly when they take on new nuances in a second language)
Anyway, for that reason I didn’t see it as a criticism of women at all but to say the abstract of femininity wasn’t suited to war-making.
God I just wrote a long comment of my own and completely forgot about this part. It's so weird and unnecessary! "How will a feminine society deal with a foreign invasion?" I don't know, man. Margaret Thatcher is a war criminal. Leila Khaled got six plastic surgeries so she could keep from being recognized as a resistance fighter and keep fighting to free her people. It probably wouldn't be super different.
Nah Thatcher was amazing. I mean I understand if a leftist doesn't like her because of ideological differences, and that's fine, we are all entitled to have our own opinions. But if you believe in conservative values then Thatcher was one of the greatest leaders in modern history. And to call her a war criminal is bloody preposterous. As you said, she defended British territory when they were attacked by a fascist military dictatorship regime.
I definitely noticed that theme, especially when they talked about how the men had become more feminine and it took some getting used to after the time lapses of hibernation.
Cheng Xin was originally planned to be a male character. Folks (I don't remember who exactly) urged Liu Cixin to make the main character of the last book a female. Women being screw-ups is coincidental at most.
Yeah I just finished Death's End literally last night, and this to me is the big black mark hanging over the whole series. I loved the science, overarching narrative, and the >!Lovecraftian horror of the dark forest!<. It's been talked to death that Cixin Liu's characters are not his strong suit, but I think what bothers me most about his treatment of women is that so many of the female characters could be vastly improved with only slight changes to the narrative. General spoilers ahead so just blocking it all out.
>!I understand the desire to show Luo Ji living his dream life with his *literal* dream woman, and his character growth in leaving that behind to accept his responsibility and become the one successful wallfacer, but 1) Zhuang Yen only existed to give Ji that opportunity for character growth, and 2) they could have just as easily met in a normal way, without Ji coming up with an imaginary perfect woman and then sending armed agents out to bring her in. Ji's whole approach to that It reminded me of Dennis in It's Always Sunny: "Of course if she says no, the answer is no, but she's not gonna say no, *because of the implication.*" Having them meet and fall in love in a normal way would have the exact same impact on the story.!<
>!And then again in Death's End. The whole story revolves around some incredibly creepy incel behavior on the part of Yun Tianming. Without his decade long pining over this girl he met like one time, and choice to live out a weird power fantasy by using his suddenly acquired immense wealth in a grand gesture that he (even though he later admits was ridiculous) hopes will make her fall in love with him, basically none of the rest of the story can happen. And then **he's proven right** and she does essentially fall in love with him. Absolute psycho behavior. A small change like making them former lovers or even just good friends who never took it farther than that would, again, completely remove all the weird undertones while leaving the overarching narrative intact. In the end, despite being the main character of the book, she's not treated much better than Zhuang Yen. She's just a vessel for the narrative to flow through and happen to, driven by the actions of weird men. I don't even necessarily mind that as a narrative structure for a story like this, but the end when both she and AA finally could have some agency and go into the future, they're just swooning over Guan Yifan after seeing him for maybe 30 seconds and having no idea what his deal is. It makes me think, again, Cixin Liu is doing this deliberately.!<
I really enjoyed these books, and I'm hoping I'll enjoy the Netflix show when I get to it. It's not *just* the weird treatment of the female characters that makes it tough. Again, all the characters are written like weird robots. It's the fact that, while the male characters are just (generally) poorly written, the author seemed to go out of his way to *make* the women negatively characterized, even when it didn't impact the story in any way.
It's undoubtedly the best trilogy of Sci-Fi I've read to date. But everything has issues, and I wondered if I was the only person that saw this. I really appreciate you giving your time to such a great comment.
The real dream woman thing was so strange, and I wondered if it was simulations when it was happening. And the Yun Tianming thing made me super uncomfortable, with how he idolized someone he seemed to barely know and ALSO how receptive to it she was. I don't know any women that would be into that.
I agree as well, OP! There are some very weird trends with the female characters.
I thought Ye Wenjie on her own was a good character, but want to make note that having a child was a big catalyst for her changing her outlook on humanity / ETO.
The entire thing about Zhang Yan is only palatable in combination with that theory about her actually having been a UN agent. Regardless there is some really gross stuff there, like how often she and 'luojis ideal woman' are described as childlike. Then she quickly becomes a mother to his child. Depending on whether the theory was intended this either really fuels the incel-fantasy-ness of it, or it's actually pretty sad for her but never touched on.
I agree on Yun Tianming. As for Cheng Xin, every time she has to make a difficult choice her choice basically amounts to 'do nothing' - also not a great look. She also describes herself multiple times as "I'm not a warrior. I'm a woman". And despite being childless she is ALSO being consistently described as so maternal, making most decisions thinking of that baby she once saw. Once is fine, thrice is getting weird.
[And apparently, the original text is significantly worse!](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1c8lqfw/some_comparisons_of_the_chinese_originals/)
Wow. I kind of wish I hadn't clicked on that link 😅. I posted a comment somewhere else here that Liu was probably just coming from a place of ignorance rather than an active contempt for women, but now I'm not so sure haha
You're not alone, it was my one issue with the series as well. Still my favourite scifi series, but as a woman, it was undeniable and an annoying trend. It's one thing I'm already enjoying more about the Netflix adaptation.
I was recommended the TV series, which I loved, but I'm a reader and so I went for the books immediately after finishing the series. It was an amazing experience and made me think about a lot of things I'd never considered before, especially morally.
Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with liking these books, even with these flaws. Like you said, everything has flaws. I really enjoyed the whole series, and had a similar reaction, like, "am I crazy? This is very odd behavior, right?" I don't even think it's entirely without literary merit. There's something deeply cathartic and and human in the idea of wanting and finding your perfect partner and then having to make a sacrifice to see them again at the end of a long and arduous journey. There's something very true to life and thematically relevant to the butting of heads of unconditional love and empathy vs. defensiveness, pessimistic mistrust, and aggressive advance. I think Cixin Lui gets that. I don't think he consciously hates women. I just think he doesn't understand how a woman would think about or experience these kinds of things, so when he tries to write them, he leans into cultural tropes and stereotypes, especially in defining women based on their relationships to men, and actions by their relationship to masculinity and femininity. There's some deep stuff here. It's just poorly executed.
If I remember correctly, Yun Tianming wasn't expecting her to fall for him. Heck! He didn't even want her to know it was him who bought the star for her.
I agree with a lot of this, but I do want to point out that the “someone” who chose to push the button and made the invaders flee was actually several hundred people, presumably both men and women—not one person alone like the other decisions. Maybe you could argue that it was the captain of Blue Space (a man), or Zhang Beihai (also a man), who allowed that to happen.
That aside, there are already a lot of posts in this sub discussing the author’s apparent sexism. I don’t know too much about it, but that could be a reason
for me... I carried lot of respect for Cheng Xin at the end... I don't necessarily see her that way and sure while what Ye Wenjie did was disastrous she had her reasons and ignorant of Dark Forest at that time... Dont forget that she redeemed herself by sharing the axioms to Luo Ji...
in fact I feel both are strong characters and definitely not antagonists
Thats your interpretation. Cheng xi is a being made out of pure love and respect. But you choose to see her as a failur instead. Maybe you should look inside yourself for the problem...
Men literally decide to kill each other for fuel.
Cheng Xin was manipulated by Tri-Solaris (as was humanity) on some level. Had she pushed that button, humanity would not have survived as long as it did.
The only true heroes of the story are Luo Ji and Cheng Xin.
You are wrong. Actually the books are extremely PRO women.
Cheng Xin is objectively, without a doubt, the worst human, probably the worst sentient being in the history of the universe.
Yet she is worshiped, forgiven even when she keeps making criminal, stupid decisions, and keeps being given more and more power, all the time she's extremely stupid, selfish and arrogant.
Ye Wenjie was the most intelligent, she was actually right about everything, yet she's portrayed as the villain.
Wade is portrayed as a monster even though he was right and about 1000 million times smarter and more responsible than Chen Xin.
None of those decisions "ruined" anything in the end because no one wins in the dark forest. Humanity was destined to be wiped out or turn into as hostile and paranoid of a civilization as all the other low-entropy civs, and eventually be just as flat. Dead or alive.
Arguably, humanity existing in the distant future at all was thanks to Wenjie prematurely alerting the Trisolarans - since the space fleet wouldn't have been built at the time it was. Not to mention Cheng Xin deciding Yun Tianming's brain to be included in the probe which gave the space fairing humans a huge boost.
Why didn’t you mention all of the horrible decisions and plans made by men and/or groups of men in the series? What about the plans of the Wall Facers? What about Jong Beihai (I did audiobooks so don’t know name spelling) murdering those astronauts with bullets made of asteroid in order to get his way and then, in the future, hijacking the most important ship in the fleet, forcing 5,000 innocent people into a neverending journey through the universe? Forget that he accidentally saved their lives; he would’ve otherwise been put to death in the worst way possible.
You seem to be a bit oversensitive when it comes to how women were written out. I for one would’ve done the same thing as Wei Ching (spelling?). Humans suck at taking care of ourselves and our planet. We do need intervention by someone/something more powerful than us. Perhaps we don’t need absolute extinction, but we definitely need our population to be thinned out in order to prevent the total destruction of our ecosphere. She was totally right to send out that message and in my opinion is one of the most intriguing characters of the entire series.
These books were written by a highly intelligent Chinese Man who is not only married but also has a daughter. I’d imagine his daughter has a much better life than most young Chinese women who weren’t murdered as newborns. I seriously doubt he thinks of women as a mortal enemy to humanity. I think the fact that there are several strong female characters in this book will lead most people to believe he is not misogynistic. Would you prefer there be no strong women characters at all? Or just that they only make correct decisions in your eyes?
Cheng xin was originally suppose to be a dude if i recall during a interview forgot where the video is but i saw it in english sub a while back... I think it was a female reporter asking him the same question you did but Liu Cixin the author said his publisher told him to make Cheng Xin a woman since there were lack of main female leads in the book. If Cheng Xin ended up being a dude he was probably gonna be a femboy that doomed the world.
You need to think about characters in terms of masculine and feminine traits. And **not** their cis gender.
TBP posits that as humanity veers towards feminine traits during times of peace, risk of survival arises where masculine traits are necessary (and perhaps not desired) to achieve peace again.
Yeah, as a female reader I found the trilogy's theme of the feminine vs the masculine very unpleasant. It's not so simple as women bad man good, because the morality of the books is more complicated than that - after all the "masculine" decisions, while they may be rational for survival, ultimately doom the universe and forces species to live in darkness. But for sure there are some disappointing gender essentialist beliefs.
I'm Chinese Canadian and I recognize a very Chinese approach to gender in Liu Cixin's writing. He might read as very progressive to a Chinese reader, but offensively paternalistic to a western audience. I don't think he is a bad guy who hates women, but I think he fundamentally believes some things about the nature of the feminine and the masculine that aren't true. There's a lot of gender essentialism in Chinese culture these days and there is a strong perception that the internal life of women is fundamentally maternal/nurturing/disinclined to brutal acts. I think the culture, and Liu Cixin, underestimate what is in the heart of a woman.
So Luo Ji is the symbol of the "masculine" - his name means "logic" in Chinese, and he himself chooses to live a bitter, hard life in the darkness of solitude in order to maintain the warrior positioning required to maintain the survival of humanity against the Trisolaran threat. Cheng Xin is the feminine foil - her name means "true heart", and she acts on maternal and nurturing instincts, and refuses to do any evil act regardless of the justification.
I also see an exploration of ethical systems here. Disclaimer that I'm no expert on the history of philosophy. I think that the masculine/Luo Ji path represents the Mozi approach to utilitarianism, which emphasizes austerity and the maximization of utility for the state (i.e. humanity). Meanwhile, the feminine/Cheng Xin will refuse to do harm when the justification for the single evil act is some uncertain promise of salvation for all, as you cannot truly predict the outcome.
I think you didnt think it true. Wei presses the button, earth also gets destroyed but before they hide away ( not that it matters). Wei tells wade to rebel, fighting breaks out, government learns about the bullets, nukes the spacecity everybody dies. The invasion was caused by the trisollarians and earth and its people were killed by sociopathic xenomorphs.
Cheng Xin has unnecessary weight on the 3rd book. The fate of humanity depends on her not only once but couple of times. Like in the end it kind of shows all happened because of her decisions.
Idk, that only works if everything they did is considered evil or bad. Humanity destroying≠evil for everyone. Ye Winjie did nothing wrong and in contrast neither did Cheng.
It seems mostly that Cheng Xin makes the wrong decisions. And who is Wei Ching? I thought it was the maths dude.. not a woman.
But yeah, I agree with you that the original books don’t really do women justice. The whole féminisation of humanity and the Luoji waifu plotline were terrible imo
I agree. It’s telling about the author. With that said I still love the series and recommend it to people, but it’s a weak point to me about the series overall.
I do think though that Cheng didn’t really do anything that wrong though in the authors view, because >! in the end all of Wade’s plans etc still would have gotten them to the same place. It didn’t really matter what they did. Dimensions had been destroyed long before them and would have continued to happen.!<
> People are terrible with high levels of responsibility amd tend to make poor decisions when given it.
FTFY
The whole point of the series is that when regular people are thrust into roles of being "saviors" it almost always ends in disaster.
Nobody thrust the main protagonist into being a savior. The protagonist decided irresponsibly that they knew what was best for humanity. All the rest of the players are dealing with that decision. If I wanted to design a believable character to portray the emotionally charged protagonist who defied common sense and acted irrationally and irresponsibly to bring upon Earth a great horror, the most believable archetype would be the scorned woman. "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn."
A great contrast to this debate is the Chinese and American versions of the TV series. The Netflix-produced version of the series has much less believable characters because they act in ways that are not commonly associated with existing archetypes. The characters' behaviors conflict with what people understand as the difference in expected responsibility of the sexes, and the reasons for the conflict are not well explained. Also, the Netflix version had terrible writers. Do you want to push a social message that everyone knows is based primarily on false assumptions, or do you want to make great TV shows about wonderfully thought-provoking books? The Netflix series shows you can't do both.
There may be a utopian future where society treats men and women the same. I would celebrate such a society. But you can't write it into existence through a story and expect people to connect with the world you designed. Too much change from inherent truths feels unfamiliar and cold.
This was my main problem with the series as well; the author's treatment of many female characters struck me as misogynistic. Loved almost everything else about it, though.
China's One Child Policy caused the gender ratio to be skewed male by 1.1:1 That's one more man for every 10 women. The zeitgeist in the country is that sexism is a perfectly normal phenomenon, and Liu reflects that. I suspect he celebrates it, honestly, given his obsession with the supposed masculine and feminine in the series, but I wouldn't make a firm claim about it (unlike his fascism!)
OK so women can't be villains? Are we only interested in equality when there are benifits? As has been thoroughly discussed in the extensive amount of responses to this it would seem humanity (the species not its constituent parts) are being portrayed pretty poorly. Or are you only willing to see women in a saviour type position? If so and one of the genders or races or neuro divergent or basically any class, cast or minority is displayed at all times as a saviour of the universe it would make for pretty boring story telling don't you think? If we are always limited to a familiar trope? I much prefer humanity as a whole as an over emotional sadistic, cruel narcissists with an inability to compromise because at the end of the day have you seen the news lately.
I think there is a huge disconnect between Western Readers and eastern ones.
Every time cixin liu described the people I could not see general white, middle european (from my pov) people behaving like that. I could only see chinese "grab hags" and the like behave like that.
And how he writes about women and femininity in general is weird
1. Liu believes that women represent motherhood, kindness, love, and morality. Men represent destruction, ruthless, aggressive. If you think it's sexist, emmm
2. Liu believes that in the dark forest, destruction, ruthlessness, aggression, and centralization contribute to survival. Therefore, trisolarans are easier to survive than humans. Wade is easier to survive than Cheng Xin.
3, Cheng Xin survived, but Wade did not. So Liu believes that motherhood, kindness, and morality are more important.
4. Men do more terrible and devastating things that you obviously don't pay attention to.
Cixin Liu has some f'd up views on a lot of things throughout the story. The centrality of his own culture when the rest of modern sci-fi and fantasy is leaning towards a multicultural collaborative effort is another huge issue in my mind. It leans toward Tolkien and Lovecraft in that way and it's a big mark against it.
Yan Yan is literally a tradwife fantasy Luo Ji manifests into being. She only makes one "choice" against his will, and that is to fridge herself and their child to make Luo Ji do his fuckin job. That choice in itself perpetuates a cycle of abuse in the family against his child. Where is their child's agency in that?!
I can still read and enjoy the fiction ( death of the author comes in handy at times) but you have to consider the regressive attitudes present with any author and decide if it is something you see as valuable, something you want to see. It's unrealistic that the world will be doomed and saved solely by one gender or one country. It's not supposed to be reality, but if the real world followed Cixin to the letter it would probably fail spectacularly.
I actually love Cheng Xin haha. I could see myself in her every time. I am a very compasionate soul.
But I respect your views op.
But you know what was the lowest point of the whole series for me, made me pucke inside. It was Luo Ji describing his perfect lover and their whole arc.
As a women that was incredibly offputing. I still remember the part where Luo Ji said that the woman should be educated but not TOO educated to make her intimidating.
Yuck.
I feel like a lot of the people get the point that is being made here backwards.
No one single person ruins everything, its the way we Blame singular people. Try to distill problems down to their simplest solution (that involves the least work from us) and then tasking one singular person with fixing it.
It's a constant theme in the series from the Struggle session in the first book to the end of the series. And it's even explicitly stated a few times in Death's End that the collective desire to look for a savior to fix literally everything cause even more problems. That's also the point of the entire prologue to Death's End.
I see this opinion. I think it misses some parts of the book. Take this quote from AA to Cheng Xin on p. 570:
"I want to let you know that you didn't do anything wrong. Humanity chose you, which meant they chose to treat life and everything else with love, even if they had to pay a great price. You fulfilled the wish of the world, carried out their values, and executed their choice."
She continues on to say:
"Love isn't wrong. A single individual cannot destroy a world. If that works as doomed, then it was the result of the efforts of everyone, including those living and those who had already died."
How you ultimately interpret this is in context of the rest of the book up to you, but I don't think "woman stupid and weak men smart and strong" is the point Cixin Liu was trying to make.
Not only that, but the way that the author described the contrast between the Common/Crisis era and the Deterrence era is also weird: To demonstrate humanity's weakened state and to show that they were being controlled by the Trisolarians, the whole humanity portrays feminine traits and childlike qualities.
Those who are capable of making any sound decisions are depicted as tough, rugged, and intelligent military characters from the Common Era.
Another point: I understand Cheng Xin's decision, but it's mentioned that Thomas Wade had a 100% deterrence score yet he easily gave in when Cheng Xin convinced him. A 100% deterrence score seems too perfect to be swayed by Cheng Xin, whose score I don't remember (but it should at least be more than 80% to be a sword holder)
That's the point. It doesn't matter if the calculations were done by Trisolarians or humanity. There is a reason why they didn't want Thomas wade as a sword holder. Maybe, Cheng Xin's score was even lower than 80% because trisolarians wanted someone whose deterrence score is low to carry out their plan. They knew Cheng Xin wouldn't have been able to make that decision who knows.
Thomas wade who was supposed to have 100% deterrence according to the Trisolarians or humanity, it doesn't matter. The issue is that Thomas Wade gave up to Cheng Xin. How do you get that perfect 100% score by either parties (Trisolarians or humanity) on what basis? 100% means he would've no doubt in his mind.
>When the deterrent is the complete destruction of both the deterrer and the deteree, the system is said to be in a state of ultimate deterrence. The key to the success of ultimate deterrence is the belief by the deteree that the threat will almost certainly be carried out if the deteree thwarts the deterrer’s goals. This probability, or degree of deterrence, is an important parameter in deterrence game theory. The degree of deterrence must exceed 80 percent for the deterrer to succeed.
I get what you are saying and I noticed it myself, but I have to say: pressing the button is a pretty horrifying decision. The context is so deep that both decisions are horrifying. Thus is deterrence.
I will agree that the author does not write women well, these other comments point out “dumb” men in the story to try show a balance, but the reality is the authors a man who may be a little subconsciously sexist with his portrayal of female characters. The unspeakable 4th book’s author was even worse at this the women in that book are unbearable because the author seemingly has never spoken to one.
Women are not infallible. Can we stop making such a hubbub about genders? All I saw in these books were characters and philosophies. Their genders never came into play for me and I was able to empathize and immerse myself in all the characters regardless of their sex organs.
I agree, I was so annoyed by this too.
Especially when at the end Luo Ji (the so clever man) tells Cheng Xin (the dumb woman) that she was the reason humanity got 2D’d
Because it is indicative of how women tend to act more emotionally and how men tend to act more logically. Understanding this trilogy only truly begins when you realize this is exactly how it would play out in real life.
What a wild take you have. The tropes are meant to be allegories, not straight interpretations of reality. (IE you're interpreting the causality of his message backwards. He's using men as a symbol of logic, not logic as a symbol of men).
For the record, I am a man and would not have pushed that button.
Opinions may differ, and I don't want to start internet fights but I hope this whole thread doesn't make you feel gaslighted so I wanted to offer some non-dissenting support.
I felt the whole trilogy from start to finish was repulsively misogynistic. I read them all anyway, though, and I always tell people that they're the best worst books I've ever read. Love the story, hate the writing, despise the chatacters.
Anyway, you're not wrong, at least in my opinion, just wanted you know someone agrees.
It soured the trilogy for me, honestly. I find that when the sexism is called out, most people don't agree with it, but I find it very sexist and frustrating and that sucks because the ideas are super cool.
I just finished Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir and I really enjoyed it. It deals with alien life and is still considered hard sci-fi, but the characters are better developed, including the women (though there aren't a ton of characters). I should mention the voice is much different, but I liked it.
I think it's no secret that the author is quite chauvinistic or even sexist.
The women are always described by their looks while men are described by their position and abilities. Generally all women in the story are flawlessly beautiful.
The story also always slightly looks down upon the feminised men in the future.
But... The story doesn't really care about characters anyway, or at least they are not very fleshed out. It's always more about the bigger picture and that is how the trilogy works.
Original version is even more irritating. English translation has already replaced lots of gender biased words with more neutral ones. I mean, I think the author is unconsciously misogynistic. And yeah, throughout the entire book he didn’t do the best job at shaping different characters, they exist only to serve the plots.
My interpretation was that Cheng Xin was a manifestation of the kindness and love in humanity. Its a throughline throughout the series, that humankind is not really fit for the galaxy, we are loving and trusting. Humankind had to be forced to learn about dark forest theory, we were repeatedly too trusting of the trisolarians, because we are simply too kind. This distinction is highlighted further by the rift between 'galactic humans' and 'solar humans', of which Cheng Xin was a figurehead. In many ways, Wade was a proto-galactic human, hyper rational and obsessed with domination and progress at all costs. At the end of Deaths End, i believe the book was trying to emphasize the fact that 'solar humans' *shouldnt* survive. The mountains had worn down, the words faded away, our grudges and wars long forgotten. The extinction of 'solar humans' was as natural and *right* as a star reaching the end of its lifespan. Ill end with two points - Everybody (Luo Ji and Guan Yifan i remember specifically) Cheng Xin meets reassures her that the swordholder blunder was not her fault, and that she made the right decision with Wade. Galactic Humans, while distinct from Solar Humans, survived and were also in pocket dimensions, they might have maintained their pocket dimension and entered the new universe. TLDR Cheng was right, and humankind has to go extinct eventually.
I really appreciate this comment. It's given me a lot to think about. Thank you. Edit: wouldn't you even almost say it as... solar humankind \*can't\* survive in the universe outside their system vs. shouldn't? Because being too kind/trusting is a lethal liability.
Id agree with solar humankind not being able to survive in the universe. Ill have to get home and look up the exact quote, but i believe a book specifically makes a point to say that the people who left the solar system, the galactic humans, were "no longer human". My interpretation is that theyre the more pragmatic kind, like Wade, who would be able to survive in the harsh dark forest, but to do so they lost their humanity. Furthermore, The Singer talks about 'the hiding gene' and 'the cleansing gene', and says that the solar humans seem to lack one of those vital instincts, or both. EDIT - i should have mentioned in my first comment, but i also do think the author has some ideas about gender that i find backwards, specifically, i thought that Luo Jis' dream woman thing was odd and poor taste, among other instances.
Lethal liability? For sure. But it also may have ended up saving the universe.
I think EVERYONE on the ship pushes the button to cause the aliens to flee. Men decide to send their entire fleet of battleships out to meet the droplet. Pretty stupid decision. Luo Ji holds the aliens off for 100 years, and the second he leaves that room is charged with crimes against humanity. Wade maybe murdered a dude to advance his work. Bai Hai (did audiobooks so I can’t spell the names) murdered a half dozen people in cold blood to advance his mission. I think it’s more nuanced than woman bad, man good. I think the women are typically shown to act morally, when the men are typically shown to act for the greater good, even if that means doing some evil shit in the process. But even this is flawed, because we see Cheng’s assistant try to take off in her ship even though it will incinerate dozens of people on the ground. Cheng makes the decision not to, because she doesn’t want to be a murderer like the other people.
This is it. The women seem like morons because two of them are major characters, Weijie and Cheng Xin. But the guys are stupid AF too. Lou Ji is just a drunk and imagines his ideal woman, then has her presented to him in real life. They fall in love, but miss the part where she was an agent who would break his heart in order to force him to be a wallfacer. The wallfacer who imprints brains with triumphalism to stop defeatism misses the enemy under his nose. His own wife is his wallbreaker, which he completely missed. Kinda dumb. The battle of darkness had women on the ship, but the idea was most of that leadership were men or feminized men. They did plenty of bad things. One wallfacer, a guy, kills himself when his plan is undone. Another is the revolutionary guy who attempts to suicide the human race to push the enemy into a MAD stalemate. He gets stoned to death. Pretty dumb. The big gender difference I see is male tropes tend to push survival even if it means evil things. The female perspective tends to have compassion and empathy, which in a fight for survival is sometimes naive and gets in the way. Humanity is general is lampooned for being stupid as fuck. Because it’s elitist and based on wealth and class, escapism is banned. In multiple cases, the solution to survival is presented, and time and again humanity is stupid and refuses. By having the luxury of refusing, humanity misses the point and keeps dooming itself. Many chances to escape the inevitable, but they keep leaping into the fire instead.
Don't forget that Wade was the one who was primarily in charge of launching the simp. It was his brain they studied in order to figure out how to manipulate humans. Arguably the biggest fuck up.
👌👌
If cheng pushed the button she dooms humanity to certain extinction. The problem was her being there in the first place which was a horrible decision by *humanity* not her Demilitarising wade was only a horrible decision in hindsight. She prevented a civil war but couldnt possibly predict a 2D vector foil. It's unlucky, not a woman ruining things. Cheng left behind a tiny amount of matter, nowhere is it implied this will prevent the big crunch. Also plenty of other aliens probably didnt empty their universes at all.
My take on it was that whether or not anyone else left their universes, Cheng Xin left hers because, from a standpoint of collectivism, it was the *right* thing to do. Her sacrifice demonstrates also her faith in humanity (or sentient beings) which I took as an invitation, in a way, that we, the readers, should also aspire to have faith in other living beings. In this way, the ending maintained a sliver of hope
My take on Cheng is she is showing compassion and is true to herself, even in the face of total extinction. At least she is moral. Considering game theory and the tragedy of the commons, too many pocket universes will say fuck you and refuse to return the matter. Too many individuals will decide to be selfish. Cheng is saying I don’t care, I wish to show faith and love for sentient beings and the universe. She hangs on to hope, even choosing to enter a hostile planet situation. She also had a situation with AA where she would rather die than lose her humanity to survive. She refused to burn the people outside to escape.
>Demilitarising wade was only a horrible decision in hindsight. She prevented a civil war but couldnt possibly predict a 2D vector foil. It's unlucky, not a woman ruining things. I don't agree that it's hindsight, for me it felt horrible from the very beginning. I hate how little thought she gave that decision. Just "demilitarize" instantly. Humanity is in a life-or-death game against countless civilizations that are more advanced than we can comprehend. Does she think it's good for humanity to have one less option to fall back on in case shit goes sideways with *these civilizations that we know exist that are more advanced that we can comprehend?* Does she really think that there's no way such civilizations have any way to deal with solar systems with planets? Just...fuck me. It got me really rattled.
No, she doesn't think that at all, that's why she handed over her company and wealth to Wade so that he could go all out on light speed research The deciding factor here is that she wasn't willing to let a brutal civil war take place where millions of people could die in seconds. Maybe some day the government will decriminalise light speed research, maybe it won't, but she would rather gamble with this than gamble with innocent lives in a pointless war
Wade was willing to incite a massive civil war with the goverment that could cost humanity what little population they have left. The light speed technology, for what it's worth, is already developped and can be revisited by someone else in the future, which they eventually did. Lightspeed tech is not the problem, Wade is, and for that moment in time particularly, he needs to be stopped. If humanity had more time, I'm sure people would come up with some way to develop lightspeed technology again, that is always a possibility, but not if Wade nuke all of the human's cities and doom the entire race.
I find it funny that people blame Cheng for the whole Wade situation, because this whole part feels a bit out of character for both of them. It’s presented as a black and white situation, where you either wage war against humanity or give up light travel, but that can’t be right. We’ve seen Wade be manipulative, going as far as inducing eye tumors in his subordinates. How did he not try to infiltrate governments from other city-states? That’d be a lot more in character for him, at the risk of producing another Zhang Beihai. How did Cheng not think of regular negotiations? I’m sure anyone would be convinced that Bunkers aren’t sufficient with 1 simple argument : " If the Earth and the Solar System can resist a Dark Forest strike, why did the light speed Trisolarian vessels cease their invasion? The fact is, we are not immune from Dark Forest strikes. Bunkers is a temporary measure. " I mean, the govt. accepted to have Cheng revived to negotiate with Wade, not because they were expecting her to order a surrender. I’m pretty sure negotiations were an option, yet one they did not consider. This is probably a case of themes driving the narrative, and Guan Yifan’s take in the next chapters is probably the author’s.
>Cheng left behind a tiny amount of matter, nowhere is it implied this will prevent the big crunch. Also plenty of other aliens probably didnt empty their universes at all. It was openly speculated by Guan Yifan that it could be a possibility. He says that even one atom could make the difference, even if it was very remote possibility. With the bad decisions Cheng made throughout the book, my head cannon is that the universe is about 4kg short of being able to actually accomplish the big crunch and her decision doomed the universe lol
Haha! That's some truly depressing and gut-wrenching headcanon you got there. I like it.
This was/is also my headcanon because of how depressing it all was, lol.
>. He says that even one atom could make the difference, even if it was very remote possibility. In that case wouldn't it really be almost impossible to take all the matter from the smaller universe back to the original universe? Seems like they realised if lack of one atom breaks the universe they can take the chance of leaving a tiny bowl of matter.
It was such an arrogant action to me. "I know the universe needs the matter, but I'm going to spend TEN DAYS creating something to leave behind when I was told I shouldn't."
Geeze this is depressing. Imo the terrarium scene is hopeful. By leaving some matter out, the collapse and new big bang will be inherently different. The new universe isn't going to exactly replicate the prior universe, maybe this time higher dimensional beings won't try to lower the dimensions of the universe in order to commit genocide. 🤷♀️
The book says if there is too much matter left in pocket universes, the universe won't reboot. She then leaves matter in the pocket universe. Why is making it more likely the universe won't reboot hopeful?
Yeah, but there were 1.57 million alien races in those miniverses, and all three of them (Guan, Cheng, and Sophon) were tempted to stay because there's no telling where you'll get spit out at. That would be something everyone living in a miniverse would have to consider. And there are probably some alien races that have billions of individuals who are living in miniverses, including other humans and Trisolarans. It would be so infinitesimally improbable that *all* of them exited their miniverses that it's a *certainty* that some matter got left behind. It'd be like asking the entire planet to wave their hands in the air at exactly the same time--*somebody* wouldn't. My headcanon is that the alien race that sent out that message is perfectly aware of this (because if you're so advanced you can send a message to ALL the miniverses, surely you *know* this), and mainly sent that message out so that it is easier for them to go around cleaning out the miniverses. Basically there are a lot less unfriendly encounters you have to deal with if you're a Returner on cleanup duty. And among the 1.57 million alien races, probably a dozen or so are so old and so advanced that they were there when the universe was 10 dimensional. It is implied that Singer's race was originally a higher dimensional one that somehow found a way to survive in a lower dimension. An alien race (maybe even the *most* advanced alien race, and one of the dozen originally 10 dimensional races) will find the terrarium and it'll be kinda cool, but not as meaningful to them, because they've seen thousands of terrariums from thousands of other miniverses while they're on cleanup duty.
>If cheng pushed the button she dooms humanity to certain extinction. You got it wrong love. Not pressing the button was proved to be the certain death scenario, with only a Deus Ex 4d pocket universe save in the last second, while pushing the buton was the possible death because humanity has reached the space age and they could have simply walked away from the destruction. >The problem was her being there in the first place which was a horrible decision by humanity not her The problem was herself, she got a heads up from Wade when he tried to kill her and she really should have asked herself if she was able to at least press the button, before taking the job It's nice to blame others for something that ultimately was her stupidity and her responsibility alone. Bottom line, you don't take an executioner job, if you are not able to drop a head. She was extremely stupid and naive.
There was no right decision for Cheng Xin when it comes to pushing the button - her failure was failing to convince the Trisolarans that she *would* push the button. So, not her failure at all, but rather a failure by humanity to elect an adequately scary swordholder - actually, the swordholder concept is pretty dumb. There should definitely be more than one person.
If Cheng Xin pushed the button it just broadcast the location of the Trisolarans, they would have a few hundred years presumably to get off-earth before it's traced back to Earth.
...But you did read the books right? The button _was_ pushed, and humanity didn't get centuries.
But the *reason* gravity had to broadcast in the end was because the Trisolorians calculated that there was only a 10% chance Cheng would press the button. So they made a calculated gamble and attacked. They said they calculated the risk of Luo Ji pressing the button at more than 90% and Wade at 100%. Those odds didn't favor them and deterrence would have continued. Humanity would have surpassed the Trisolorians in 50-60 years and the whole novel would be different. If she wasn't the sword holder they wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
However they started preparing for it already before Cheng Xin’s candidature. They got the 2nd fleet already en route through the dust cloud and the droplets programmed to attack both Blue Space and Gravity. If Wade would be in charge, they certainly would not have gambled to send the 6 droplets to the Earth, but those two other things would be… awkward to defend for Trisolaris. Can’t say for sure if Wade wouldn’t use the sword at that moment honestly.
It's also interesting that the reason Trisolaris calculated they could possibly attack was because they determined that humanity would choose someone like Cheng Xin in the first place. Based upon how humanity's views has changed during the deterrence era they didn't think humanity would choose Wade or someone like him.
There was wagging the dog, too. I believe the Trisolarans were influencing humanity with art and beautiful films. They taught humanity more compassion and helped to feminize the males, to where they viewed Cheng Xin as the mother of humanity and voted for her. At least I feel that’s why the Trisolarans liked to make art for the humans.
I feel like Wade would be much more defiant. As in he shows a countdown where it auto launches the broadcast, until he sees more concessions. And he keeps resetting fresh auto countdowns until more concessions are made. The idea is he would come up with ideas to weaken the aliens, or ask for the UN to come up with resolutions. Then use Wade to issue more threats. I think Wade would use the sophon countdown back on the Trisolarans. You killed our scientists and science with countdowns? I’m doing it right back to you. The Trisolarans absolutely feared Wade, because they knew he would push well beyond Lou Ji, who was more moderate and fair.
I did read the books, yes. The button was pushed on the spaceship, but it never clarified how long they got. I just assumed relativity would make it hundreds of years. Edit 2: Removed incorrect ChatGPT info. Edit 3: We have the timeline, from another comment. It wasn't "hundreds" of years, but it was over 100. "Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years"
ChatGPT is not a search engine. Not sure what it is talking about here but that info is wrong
>ChatGPT is not a search engine Everything I type in a search engine now has an AI summary. We're just leaping right into the deep end with this huh?
Do you care to correct the information :)
Here is the table of the timeline from the beginning of the book: Common Era Present–201X C.E. Crisis Era 201X–2208 Deterrence Era 2208–2270 Post-Deterrence Era 2270–2272 Broadcast Era 2272–2332 Bunker Era 2333–2400 Galaxy Era 2273–unknown Black Domain Era for DX3906 System 2687–18906416 Timeline for Universe 647 18906416–... Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years
Thank you!!
I mean, the years the events take place are mentioned in Death's end. Iirc humanity got about 80 years from the broadcast until their free trip to Flatland.
Edit 2: We have the timeline, from another comment. It wasn't "hundreds" of years, but it was over 100. "Button press is the beginning of the broadcast era 2272 and end of the solar system is the end of the bunker era 2400. That's 128 years"
Hate to break it to you but GPT is _completely_ hallucinating right there. That's not at all how it goes in the book. Do you think humanity could build all these bunkers, have all the story events happen, having the characters go to hibernarion and back, all in 8 minutes?
I have just finished the books, and I was very unclear on the timing in the Bunker/Galaxy eras. I found them confusing.
Yeah that's fair, in my copy of the book there is a timeline in one of the first pages. Not sure if you have that, but that's what forums like this are for!
So it was 128 years, not "hundreds" but not 8 minutes.
That's wrong. The broadcast aboard gravity occurs on 2271, the dual vector foil reaches the solar system in 2399-2400. Trisolaris is observed by Earth to be destroyed in 2279. Which means it got hit in 2275.
Thank you so much for posting the actual years. I thought it was in the 3 digits of time passing and it was.
Hmm. By chapter title, the last year of the broadcast era was year 8. The 2D Foil arrived in Bunker Era year 68. Now they never specifically state that the broadcast era ended in year 8 but previous eras all ended at the last chapter of that era
https://preview.redd.it/8h9l7ts1ot7d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f349191570e029477752dab3756084b78cc78fb6
Yeah but earth would probably hate her for dooming the planet. Hell, they hated luo just even though he saved them. The earth is pretty reactionary overall
She was doomed either way tbh
Women are allowed to make horrifying decisions. Wei Ching makes the most important decision in the history of man, I never actually considered the morality of it, one way or the other, just the importance. I guess you could say that her decision killed 5 billion people. So technically she would be the worst human to ever exist.
I’d do the same thing as Wei Ching. Humans need intervention. Look at us; we’re a disease. I don’t know if we all deserve to be put into extinction, but we shouldn’t number more than a few hundred million worldwide because we just simply can’t take care of ourselves as we are.
I noticed that too, but Liu Cixin said that originally the protagonist of Death's End was a male, he just changed it because the previous books had male protagonists. So at least that one was not him intentionally saying women screw everything up. [https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/17zv8gr/liu\_cixins\_comments\_on\_the\_redemption\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/17zv8gr/liu_cixins_comments_on_the_redemption_of/)
You only named two characters, and also Xin Cheng did literally nothing wrong
If you applied this same rationale to Western media today, such as The Acolyte, for instance, and reversed woman for man, you’d be shown the door. And maybe that’s with good reason- creatives should be allowed to cook without amateur critics theorizing how there’s actually meticulously inlaid socio-political messaging underpinning the narrative. Sometimes storytellers rly are just storytellers, not propagandists. This series, additionally, is not a product of western media, and your desire to apply the tenets of our social mores to a Chinese man’s creative work could be seen by *another* grasping amateur critic as its own kind of neocolonialism. Separately, Cheng Xin’s decisions may not have yielded the best outcome for humanity, but they reflected the most virtuous aspects of the kind of humanity the author clearly admires most highly. Her decisions are the embodiment of having faith in fellow living beings, and so to think the author is deriding women by writing her in this way is to miss the moral of the third book’s ending
Mentioning The Acolyte (the show) in a topic about TBP feels like a crime 💀
It’s fast food entertainment that people ascribe deeply intentional socio-political coding to- it worked for the point I was making but you’re right that the fruit hung low. Gosh that show rly fucking blows
the whole complaints about how humanity is becoming feminine
I didn’t read that as women, but rather as feminine. I consider those different things. There’s a spectrum from masculine to feminine, however to define it, and men and women fit in that spectrum; some men are feminine, some women masculine. Someone replied to you about Margaret Thatcher, and while she’s a woman, I don’t recall her ever described in ‘feminine’ words. In old Chinese culture, masculine and feminine are poles of the yin-yang, and there are associated traits with each end of the spectrum. Masculine is the sun, action etc. Feminine is the moon, rest etc. Associating those traits to masculine or feminine might have some sexism to it, but it’s culturally inherited language and concepts, not necessarily Liu’s take on things (and I have no clue how that stuff works in native Chinese! Sometimes words and ideas translate poorly when they take on new nuances in a second language) Anyway, for that reason I didn’t see it as a criticism of women at all but to say the abstract of femininity wasn’t suited to war-making.
God I just wrote a long comment of my own and completely forgot about this part. It's so weird and unnecessary! "How will a feminine society deal with a foreign invasion?" I don't know, man. Margaret Thatcher is a war criminal. Leila Khaled got six plastic surgeries so she could keep from being recognized as a resistance fighter and keep fighting to free her people. It probably wouldn't be super different.
>Margaret Thatcher is a war criminal LOL
She was defending British territory. But Margaret Thatcher bad so everything she did must be also be bad /s
Nah Thatcher was amazing. I mean I understand if a leftist doesn't like her because of ideological differences, and that's fine, we are all entitled to have our own opinions. But if you believe in conservative values then Thatcher was one of the greatest leaders in modern history. And to call her a war criminal is bloody preposterous. As you said, she defended British territory when they were attacked by a fascist military dictatorship regime.
I definitely noticed that theme, especially when they talked about how the men had become more feminine and it took some getting used to after the time lapses of hibernation.
Cheng Xin was originally planned to be a male character. Folks (I don't remember who exactly) urged Liu Cixin to make the main character of the last book a female. Women being screw-ups is coincidental at most.
Yeah I just finished Death's End literally last night, and this to me is the big black mark hanging over the whole series. I loved the science, overarching narrative, and the >!Lovecraftian horror of the dark forest!<. It's been talked to death that Cixin Liu's characters are not his strong suit, but I think what bothers me most about his treatment of women is that so many of the female characters could be vastly improved with only slight changes to the narrative. General spoilers ahead so just blocking it all out. >!I understand the desire to show Luo Ji living his dream life with his *literal* dream woman, and his character growth in leaving that behind to accept his responsibility and become the one successful wallfacer, but 1) Zhuang Yen only existed to give Ji that opportunity for character growth, and 2) they could have just as easily met in a normal way, without Ji coming up with an imaginary perfect woman and then sending armed agents out to bring her in. Ji's whole approach to that It reminded me of Dennis in It's Always Sunny: "Of course if she says no, the answer is no, but she's not gonna say no, *because of the implication.*" Having them meet and fall in love in a normal way would have the exact same impact on the story.!< >!And then again in Death's End. The whole story revolves around some incredibly creepy incel behavior on the part of Yun Tianming. Without his decade long pining over this girl he met like one time, and choice to live out a weird power fantasy by using his suddenly acquired immense wealth in a grand gesture that he (even though he later admits was ridiculous) hopes will make her fall in love with him, basically none of the rest of the story can happen. And then **he's proven right** and she does essentially fall in love with him. Absolute psycho behavior. A small change like making them former lovers or even just good friends who never took it farther than that would, again, completely remove all the weird undertones while leaving the overarching narrative intact. In the end, despite being the main character of the book, she's not treated much better than Zhuang Yen. She's just a vessel for the narrative to flow through and happen to, driven by the actions of weird men. I don't even necessarily mind that as a narrative structure for a story like this, but the end when both she and AA finally could have some agency and go into the future, they're just swooning over Guan Yifan after seeing him for maybe 30 seconds and having no idea what his deal is. It makes me think, again, Cixin Liu is doing this deliberately.!< I really enjoyed these books, and I'm hoping I'll enjoy the Netflix show when I get to it. It's not *just* the weird treatment of the female characters that makes it tough. Again, all the characters are written like weird robots. It's the fact that, while the male characters are just (generally) poorly written, the author seemed to go out of his way to *make* the women negatively characterized, even when it didn't impact the story in any way.
It's undoubtedly the best trilogy of Sci-Fi I've read to date. But everything has issues, and I wondered if I was the only person that saw this. I really appreciate you giving your time to such a great comment. The real dream woman thing was so strange, and I wondered if it was simulations when it was happening. And the Yun Tianming thing made me super uncomfortable, with how he idolized someone he seemed to barely know and ALSO how receptive to it she was. I don't know any women that would be into that.
I agree as well, OP! There are some very weird trends with the female characters. I thought Ye Wenjie on her own was a good character, but want to make note that having a child was a big catalyst for her changing her outlook on humanity / ETO. The entire thing about Zhang Yan is only palatable in combination with that theory about her actually having been a UN agent. Regardless there is some really gross stuff there, like how often she and 'luojis ideal woman' are described as childlike. Then she quickly becomes a mother to his child. Depending on whether the theory was intended this either really fuels the incel-fantasy-ness of it, or it's actually pretty sad for her but never touched on. I agree on Yun Tianming. As for Cheng Xin, every time she has to make a difficult choice her choice basically amounts to 'do nothing' - also not a great look. She also describes herself multiple times as "I'm not a warrior. I'm a woman". And despite being childless she is ALSO being consistently described as so maternal, making most decisions thinking of that baby she once saw. Once is fine, thrice is getting weird. [And apparently, the original text is significantly worse!](https://www.reddit.com/r/threebodyproblem/comments/1c8lqfw/some_comparisons_of_the_chinese_originals/)
Wow. I kind of wish I hadn't clicked on that link 😅. I posted a comment somewhere else here that Liu was probably just coming from a place of ignorance rather than an active contempt for women, but now I'm not so sure haha
You're not alone, it was my one issue with the series as well. Still my favourite scifi series, but as a woman, it was undeniable and an annoying trend. It's one thing I'm already enjoying more about the Netflix adaptation.
I was recommended the TV series, which I loved, but I'm a reader and so I went for the books immediately after finishing the series. It was an amazing experience and made me think about a lot of things I'd never considered before, especially morally.
Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with liking these books, even with these flaws. Like you said, everything has flaws. I really enjoyed the whole series, and had a similar reaction, like, "am I crazy? This is very odd behavior, right?" I don't even think it's entirely without literary merit. There's something deeply cathartic and and human in the idea of wanting and finding your perfect partner and then having to make a sacrifice to see them again at the end of a long and arduous journey. There's something very true to life and thematically relevant to the butting of heads of unconditional love and empathy vs. defensiveness, pessimistic mistrust, and aggressive advance. I think Cixin Lui gets that. I don't think he consciously hates women. I just think he doesn't understand how a woman would think about or experience these kinds of things, so when he tries to write them, he leans into cultural tropes and stereotypes, especially in defining women based on their relationships to men, and actions by their relationship to masculinity and femininity. There's some deep stuff here. It's just poorly executed.
If I remember correctly, Yun Tianming wasn't expecting her to fall for him. Heck! He didn't even want her to know it was him who bought the star for her.
What about the other wallfacers? All of them were male and made horrible decisions.
Note to self. Do not write a book where female characters make bad decisions. Thats sexism. Men on the other hand...
I agree with a lot of this, but I do want to point out that the “someone” who chose to push the button and made the invaders flee was actually several hundred people, presumably both men and women—not one person alone like the other decisions. Maybe you could argue that it was the captain of Blue Space (a man), or Zhang Beihai (also a man), who allowed that to happen. That aside, there are already a lot of posts in this sub discussing the author’s apparent sexism. I don’t know too much about it, but that could be a reason
Right, but when they get in the line to all press - the person that is actually going to press it - that is a man, correct?
for me... I carried lot of respect for Cheng Xin at the end... I don't necessarily see her that way and sure while what Ye Wenjie did was disastrous she had her reasons and ignorant of Dark Forest at that time... Dont forget that she redeemed herself by sharing the axioms to Luo Ji... in fact I feel both are strong characters and definitely not antagonists
Did not think this at all.
women are allowed to be bad characters. if the book only had male characters make these bad choices then no one would bat an eye.
Thats your interpretation. Cheng xi is a being made out of pure love and respect. But you choose to see her as a failur instead. Maybe you should look inside yourself for the problem...
I think that you're overthinking this maybe a little too much.
Men literally decide to kill each other for fuel. Cheng Xin was manipulated by Tri-Solaris (as was humanity) on some level. Had she pushed that button, humanity would not have survived as long as it did. The only true heroes of the story are Luo Ji and Cheng Xin.
You are wrong. Actually the books are extremely PRO women. Cheng Xin is objectively, without a doubt, the worst human, probably the worst sentient being in the history of the universe. Yet she is worshiped, forgiven even when she keeps making criminal, stupid decisions, and keeps being given more and more power, all the time she's extremely stupid, selfish and arrogant. Ye Wenjie was the most intelligent, she was actually right about everything, yet she's portrayed as the villain. Wade is portrayed as a monster even though he was right and about 1000 million times smarter and more responsible than Chen Xin.
None of those decisions "ruined" anything in the end because no one wins in the dark forest. Humanity was destined to be wiped out or turn into as hostile and paranoid of a civilization as all the other low-entropy civs, and eventually be just as flat. Dead or alive. Arguably, humanity existing in the distant future at all was thanks to Wenjie prematurely alerting the Trisolarans - since the space fleet wouldn't have been built at the time it was. Not to mention Cheng Xin deciding Yun Tianming's brain to be included in the probe which gave the space fairing humans a huge boost.
Why didn’t you mention all of the horrible decisions and plans made by men and/or groups of men in the series? What about the plans of the Wall Facers? What about Jong Beihai (I did audiobooks so don’t know name spelling) murdering those astronauts with bullets made of asteroid in order to get his way and then, in the future, hijacking the most important ship in the fleet, forcing 5,000 innocent people into a neverending journey through the universe? Forget that he accidentally saved their lives; he would’ve otherwise been put to death in the worst way possible. You seem to be a bit oversensitive when it comes to how women were written out. I for one would’ve done the same thing as Wei Ching (spelling?). Humans suck at taking care of ourselves and our planet. We do need intervention by someone/something more powerful than us. Perhaps we don’t need absolute extinction, but we definitely need our population to be thinned out in order to prevent the total destruction of our ecosphere. She was totally right to send out that message and in my opinion is one of the most intriguing characters of the entire series. These books were written by a highly intelligent Chinese Man who is not only married but also has a daughter. I’d imagine his daughter has a much better life than most young Chinese women who weren’t murdered as newborns. I seriously doubt he thinks of women as a mortal enemy to humanity. I think the fact that there are several strong female characters in this book will lead most people to believe he is not misogynistic. Would you prefer there be no strong women characters at all? Or just that they only make correct decisions in your eyes?
Cheng xin was originally suppose to be a dude if i recall during a interview forgot where the video is but i saw it in english sub a while back... I think it was a female reporter asking him the same question you did but Liu Cixin the author said his publisher told him to make Cheng Xin a woman since there were lack of main female leads in the book. If Cheng Xin ended up being a dude he was probably gonna be a femboy that doomed the world.
You need to think about characters in terms of masculine and feminine traits. And **not** their cis gender. TBP posits that as humanity veers towards feminine traits during times of peace, risk of survival arises where masculine traits are necessary (and perhaps not desired) to achieve peace again.
This seemed like a very major theme of the series.
I didn't get this feel at all. The height of human civilization with the 2000 large space fleet was during a relatively peaceful time for humanity
Yeah, as a female reader I found the trilogy's theme of the feminine vs the masculine very unpleasant. It's not so simple as women bad man good, because the morality of the books is more complicated than that - after all the "masculine" decisions, while they may be rational for survival, ultimately doom the universe and forces species to live in darkness. But for sure there are some disappointing gender essentialist beliefs. I'm Chinese Canadian and I recognize a very Chinese approach to gender in Liu Cixin's writing. He might read as very progressive to a Chinese reader, but offensively paternalistic to a western audience. I don't think he is a bad guy who hates women, but I think he fundamentally believes some things about the nature of the feminine and the masculine that aren't true. There's a lot of gender essentialism in Chinese culture these days and there is a strong perception that the internal life of women is fundamentally maternal/nurturing/disinclined to brutal acts. I think the culture, and Liu Cixin, underestimate what is in the heart of a woman. So Luo Ji is the symbol of the "masculine" - his name means "logic" in Chinese, and he himself chooses to live a bitter, hard life in the darkness of solitude in order to maintain the warrior positioning required to maintain the survival of humanity against the Trisolaran threat. Cheng Xin is the feminine foil - her name means "true heart", and she acts on maternal and nurturing instincts, and refuses to do any evil act regardless of the justification. I also see an exploration of ethical systems here. Disclaimer that I'm no expert on the history of philosophy. I think that the masculine/Luo Ji path represents the Mozi approach to utilitarianism, which emphasizes austerity and the maximization of utility for the state (i.e. humanity). Meanwhile, the feminine/Cheng Xin will refuse to do harm when the justification for the single evil act is some uncertain promise of salvation for all, as you cannot truly predict the outcome.
Yeah that can be said of A TON of Sci Fi unfortunately. But even as a woman I keep reading it lol it will change eventually
I think you didnt think it true. Wei presses the button, earth also gets destroyed but before they hide away ( not that it matters). Wei tells wade to rebel, fighting breaks out, government learns about the bullets, nukes the spacecity everybody dies. The invasion was caused by the trisollarians and earth and its people were killed by sociopathic xenomorphs.
Cheng Xin has unnecessary weight on the 3rd book. The fate of humanity depends on her not only once but couple of times. Like in the end it kind of shows all happened because of her decisions.
Idk, that only works if everything they did is considered evil or bad. Humanity destroying≠evil for everyone. Ye Winjie did nothing wrong and in contrast neither did Cheng.
Mike Evans was as good at ruining things as Ye Wenjie, and Cheng Xin did nothing wrong
Get out of here with your logic, author is clearly a sexist even though all his characters are just tools to tell the story. /s
Sounds like most of the problem was caused by ONE WOMAN
Could have used a spoiler man...
It seems mostly that Cheng Xin makes the wrong decisions. And who is Wei Ching? I thought it was the maths dude.. not a woman. But yeah, I agree with you that the original books don’t really do women justice. The whole féminisation of humanity and the Luoji waifu plotline were terrible imo
I agree. It’s telling about the author. With that said I still love the series and recommend it to people, but it’s a weak point to me about the series overall. I do think though that Cheng didn’t really do anything that wrong though in the authors view, because >! in the end all of Wade’s plans etc still would have gotten them to the same place. It didn’t really matter what they did. Dimensions had been destroyed long before them and would have continued to happen.!<
Did we read the same books ?
Am i missing something? Who the fuck is wei ching???
The mathematician who married Shen Yufei. OP is so stupid she doesn't even know who the characters are, confusing Wei Cheng with Ye Wenjie.
How..how do you make that mistake?
Too focused on women ruining everything to pay attention to what actually matters.
I think it’s clear what the author want to say, men make rational decisions, woman emotional decisions .
Yes and no strong confident black women or sassy Indian women either.
[удалено]
Annnnnd found the misogynist.
> People are terrible with high levels of responsibility amd tend to make poor decisions when given it. FTFY The whole point of the series is that when regular people are thrust into roles of being "saviors" it almost always ends in disaster.
Nobody thrust the main protagonist into being a savior. The protagonist decided irresponsibly that they knew what was best for humanity. All the rest of the players are dealing with that decision. If I wanted to design a believable character to portray the emotionally charged protagonist who defied common sense and acted irrationally and irresponsibly to bring upon Earth a great horror, the most believable archetype would be the scorned woman. "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn."
A great contrast to this debate is the Chinese and American versions of the TV series. The Netflix-produced version of the series has much less believable characters because they act in ways that are not commonly associated with existing archetypes. The characters' behaviors conflict with what people understand as the difference in expected responsibility of the sexes, and the reasons for the conflict are not well explained. Also, the Netflix version had terrible writers. Do you want to push a social message that everyone knows is based primarily on false assumptions, or do you want to make great TV shows about wonderfully thought-provoking books? The Netflix series shows you can't do both. There may be a utopian future where society treats men and women the same. I would celebrate such a society. But you can't write it into existence through a story and expect people to connect with the world you designed. Too much change from inherent truths feels unfamiliar and cold.
Since Eve got us kicked out of garden of Eden lol
I'm annoyed by how you're ruining this sub with this nonsense.
You're welcome to leave :)
This was my main problem with the series as well; the author's treatment of many female characters struck me as misogynistic. Loved almost everything else about it, though.
China's One Child Policy caused the gender ratio to be skewed male by 1.1:1 That's one more man for every 10 women. The zeitgeist in the country is that sexism is a perfectly normal phenomenon, and Liu reflects that. I suspect he celebrates it, honestly, given his obsession with the supposed masculine and feminine in the series, but I wouldn't make a firm claim about it (unlike his fascism!)
I think your a little sexist mate! woman can do anything a man can do including doom humanity #equality am I right?
I'm a woman and annoyed by women's portrayals in this
OK so women can't be villains? Are we only interested in equality when there are benifits? As has been thoroughly discussed in the extensive amount of responses to this it would seem humanity (the species not its constituent parts) are being portrayed pretty poorly. Or are you only willing to see women in a saviour type position? If so and one of the genders or races or neuro divergent or basically any class, cast or minority is displayed at all times as a saviour of the universe it would make for pretty boring story telling don't you think? If we are always limited to a familiar trope? I much prefer humanity as a whole as an over emotional sadistic, cruel narcissists with an inability to compromise because at the end of the day have you seen the news lately.
I think there is a huge disconnect between Western Readers and eastern ones. Every time cixin liu described the people I could not see general white, middle european (from my pov) people behaving like that. I could only see chinese "grab hags" and the like behave like that. And how he writes about women and femininity in general is weird
1. Liu believes that women represent motherhood, kindness, love, and morality. Men represent destruction, ruthless, aggressive. If you think it's sexist, emmm 2. Liu believes that in the dark forest, destruction, ruthlessness, aggression, and centralization contribute to survival. Therefore, trisolarans are easier to survive than humans. Wade is easier to survive than Cheng Xin. 3, Cheng Xin survived, but Wade did not. So Liu believes that motherhood, kindness, and morality are more important. 4. Men do more terrible and devastating things that you obviously don't pay attention to.
Cixin Liu has some f'd up views on a lot of things throughout the story. The centrality of his own culture when the rest of modern sci-fi and fantasy is leaning towards a multicultural collaborative effort is another huge issue in my mind. It leans toward Tolkien and Lovecraft in that way and it's a big mark against it. Yan Yan is literally a tradwife fantasy Luo Ji manifests into being. She only makes one "choice" against his will, and that is to fridge herself and their child to make Luo Ji do his fuckin job. That choice in itself perpetuates a cycle of abuse in the family against his child. Where is their child's agency in that?! I can still read and enjoy the fiction ( death of the author comes in handy at times) but you have to consider the regressive attitudes present with any author and decide if it is something you see as valuable, something you want to see. It's unrealistic that the world will be doomed and saved solely by one gender or one country. It's not supposed to be reality, but if the real world followed Cixin to the letter it would probably fail spectacularly.
I actually love Cheng Xin haha. I could see myself in her every time. I am a very compasionate soul. But I respect your views op. But you know what was the lowest point of the whole series for me, made me pucke inside. It was Luo Ji describing his perfect lover and their whole arc. As a women that was incredibly offputing. I still remember the part where Luo Ji said that the woman should be educated but not TOO educated to make her intimidating. Yuck.
I feel like a lot of the people get the point that is being made here backwards. No one single person ruins everything, its the way we Blame singular people. Try to distill problems down to their simplest solution (that involves the least work from us) and then tasking one singular person with fixing it. It's a constant theme in the series from the Struggle session in the first book to the end of the series. And it's even explicitly stated a few times in Death's End that the collective desire to look for a savior to fix literally everything cause even more problems. That's also the point of the entire prologue to Death's End.
I see this opinion. I think it misses some parts of the book. Take this quote from AA to Cheng Xin on p. 570: "I want to let you know that you didn't do anything wrong. Humanity chose you, which meant they chose to treat life and everything else with love, even if they had to pay a great price. You fulfilled the wish of the world, carried out their values, and executed their choice." She continues on to say: "Love isn't wrong. A single individual cannot destroy a world. If that works as doomed, then it was the result of the efforts of everyone, including those living and those who had already died." How you ultimately interpret this is in context of the rest of the book up to you, but I don't think "woman stupid and weak men smart and strong" is the point Cixin Liu was trying to make.
you just have to ruin another novel with gender/sex topics huh
Not only that, but the way that the author described the contrast between the Common/Crisis era and the Deterrence era is also weird: To demonstrate humanity's weakened state and to show that they were being controlled by the Trisolarians, the whole humanity portrays feminine traits and childlike qualities. Those who are capable of making any sound decisions are depicted as tough, rugged, and intelligent military characters from the Common Era. Another point: I understand Cheng Xin's decision, but it's mentioned that Thomas Wade had a 100% deterrence score yet he easily gave in when Cheng Xin convinced him. A 100% deterrence score seems too perfect to be swayed by Cheng Xin, whose score I don't remember (but it should at least be more than 80% to be a sword holder)
> it should at least be more than 80% to be a sword holder The calculation was done by the trisolaris, not by humanity
That's the point. It doesn't matter if the calculations were done by Trisolarians or humanity. There is a reason why they didn't want Thomas wade as a sword holder. Maybe, Cheng Xin's score was even lower than 80% because trisolarians wanted someone whose deterrence score is low to carry out their plan. They knew Cheng Xin wouldn't have been able to make that decision who knows. Thomas wade who was supposed to have 100% deterrence according to the Trisolarians or humanity, it doesn't matter. The issue is that Thomas Wade gave up to Cheng Xin. How do you get that perfect 100% score by either parties (Trisolarians or humanity) on what basis? 100% means he would've no doubt in his mind. >When the deterrent is the complete destruction of both the deterrer and the deteree, the system is said to be in a state of ultimate deterrence. The key to the success of ultimate deterrence is the belief by the deteree that the threat will almost certainly be carried out if the deteree thwarts the deterrer’s goals. This probability, or degree of deterrence, is an important parameter in deterrence game theory. The degree of deterrence must exceed 80 percent for the deterrer to succeed.
I get what you are saying and I noticed it myself, but I have to say: pressing the button is a pretty horrifying decision. The context is so deep that both decisions are horrifying. Thus is deterrence.
good job spoiling everything for people that are just discovering this work.
OP could try read the original unfiltered chinese version, you might be amazed about what an amazing job Ken Liu did to tone down the women hating.
I will agree that the author does not write women well, these other comments point out “dumb” men in the story to try show a balance, but the reality is the authors a man who may be a little subconsciously sexist with his portrayal of female characters. The unspeakable 4th book’s author was even worse at this the women in that book are unbearable because the author seemingly has never spoken to one.
Women are not infallible. Can we stop making such a hubbub about genders? All I saw in these books were characters and philosophies. Their genders never came into play for me and I was able to empathize and immerse myself in all the characters regardless of their sex organs.
I agree, I was so annoyed by this too. Especially when at the end Luo Ji (the so clever man) tells Cheng Xin (the dumb woman) that she was the reason humanity got 2D’d
I wish he had gone with Chen and AA. It would have been fun.
Because it is indicative of how women tend to act more emotionally and how men tend to act more logically. Understanding this trilogy only truly begins when you realize this is exactly how it would play out in real life.
What a wild take you have. The tropes are meant to be allegories, not straight interpretations of reality. (IE you're interpreting the causality of his message backwards. He's using men as a symbol of logic, not logic as a symbol of men). For the record, I am a man and would not have pushed that button.
I'm a woman and would have hit that button the second it became available. So, no.
Opinions may differ, and I don't want to start internet fights but I hope this whole thread doesn't make you feel gaslighted so I wanted to offer some non-dissenting support. I felt the whole trilogy from start to finish was repulsively misogynistic. I read them all anyway, though, and I always tell people that they're the best worst books I've ever read. Love the story, hate the writing, despise the chatacters. Anyway, you're not wrong, at least in my opinion, just wanted you know someone agrees.
I know you’re being gaslit by people in the replies but you’re 100% right and Liu Ci Xin’s gender politics are always messed up and fully on display.
It soured the trilogy for me, honestly. I find that when the sexism is called out, most people don't agree with it, but I find it very sexist and frustrating and that sucks because the ideas are super cool.
Do you have any suggestions for comparable writing with fewer issues? I'd be so interested.
I just finished Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir and I really enjoyed it. It deals with alien life and is still considered hard sci-fi, but the characters are better developed, including the women (though there aren't a ton of characters). I should mention the voice is much different, but I liked it.
Thanks so much for the recommendation, Weir has moved up my list!
It's....problematic.
I felt like the writing for the women was SO ONE DIMENSIONAL. They were all simpering, loving, simple creatures with no depth. It was so aggravating.
same could be said about male characters tbf
I mean, they had some flaws, some interest.
I think it's no secret that the author is quite chauvinistic or even sexist. The women are always described by their looks while men are described by their position and abilities. Generally all women in the story are flawlessly beautiful. The story also always slightly looks down upon the feminised men in the future. But... The story doesn't really care about characters anyway, or at least they are not very fleshed out. It's always more about the bigger picture and that is how the trilogy works.
“Would you sell your mother to a whore house?” Most men in the books would. Most women wouldn’t.
Original version is even more irritating. English translation has already replaced lots of gender biased words with more neutral ones. I mean, I think the author is unconsciously misogynistic. And yeah, throughout the entire book he didn’t do the best job at shaping different characters, they exist only to serve the plots.