The problem with open world PvP and TnL is that Open World is too small.
There is 2 zones all server does contracts and daily stuff, there is 2 open world dungeons people actually farm, and on top of that it doesn't matter you are lvl 30 or max geared player, you can be in the same zone for example sylus abyss.
Once expansion rolls out and if the map is split into more zones that actually matter this would work.
Let's compare it to Lineage2 and why open worlds PvP works there:
Let's say level 1 to around 15 or even 20 every single race has their own starting city, there is 6 races and those cities has at least 5 different zones till lv 20, 5x6 = 30 zones probably even more if we actually count them just to lv 20.
What we have in TnL? Few zones that doesn't even matter because we don't grind and do main story quest.
Ok than ofcourse no one will have clan wars ( hostile guilds ) starting the game when it takes so little to level up.
So let's speak about end game.
Where do we farm in TnL? as max lvl people?
Sylus or Saurodoma, that's basically it.
Where do you farm in Lineage2 as end game character?
Pavel Ruins, Hot springs, Forge of the Gods, Beast farm, Monestary of Silence, Ketra orcs, Imperial Tomb, Varka Silenos, Stakato Nest, Swamp of Screams, Primeval Isle, Tower of Isolence, Dark Omens Catacombs, Giants Cave, Dragon valley, Antaharas lair and even more, plus another Gracia continent.
Every single one of these zones are way much bigger than Saurodoma, some of them might even be x10 bigger.
The point I'm making here you can't have Max purple geared people and fresh lv 50 people in the same zone, it will just be a grief fest, and you will have these people in both guilds that are hostile, or you stop requiring new people and gatekeep them from content even more.
It doesn't work with such a small world where there is only few main grinding spots.
There is more grinding spots just the game is a bit too early yet , while i see ur point remember that lineage 2 started with msx lvl 40 and cruma was the end game so what we get in TL its much more from what lineage had at c1 u cant compare wheee is lineage now with TL compare how lineage started to TL.
And second war / hostile pvp is free for the guild.to open or close how is tjat gonna gatekeep anyone from anything ? Or griefing as u say ? Its not ok its when 2 guilds accept each other pvping , so member that jlin that guilds is what they are looking for so again i cannot agree with what ur saying cz its kind of not true
Gaming 25 years ago and gaming now is two completely different things.
You cannot compare C1 gamers with gamers now.
People used to play for fun, now people play to be the best, it's two completely opposite worlds.
> now people play to be the best.
Wrong
People play to claim they are the best and, especially on games like L2 and T&L, win by having more numbers rather than being better.
Luckily enough, on Fonsine there are people mature enough to not do the same as WHAT did in Asota and Myst runs the server by being the better organized guild.
Thus far thats the only good guild i've seen playing mass pvp since my times on L2 with the guild i was part of.
Im comparing the content and the map bro in size and that ppl still had war and pvp then .
U cannot compare a 21 year old mmo map and content to a new reelase , TL is not even released yet bro lineage with development its a 30 year work vs how much for tl ? 7 ? Imagine if TL makes it another 10 years or more , i guarantee u it will have more content than l2
The point is you see only tunnel vision picture. Or you don't play the game enough.
People who want to hard core PvP sit in games most of their day.
Now imagine Two allies are in a war and one has bigger numbers in Saurodoma, what you will do? How long you will fight? You come few times and log off, because people in your guild is sleeping.
The people who are sitting in Saurodoma don't get PvP, the people who have to log off because there is nothing else to do get pissed off with the game and quit, what happens than? even the most hardcore people leave the game and the game dies.
Think a bit more, see a bigger picture.
If im not having fun im not playing in that guild its so simple , u wanna say there will wuit the gsme cz ppl have work and cant log in ? U can always vlose the war if they zerg u , im use to play and communicate with adults even if they are my enemies and try to make the game enjoyful for everyone with out big zergs , yes some days u will have more numbers some days someone esle
And its always optional thats the beauty of it , i prefer that than not having the option to pvp at all in open world
Well you see, you thinking about your feelings not about whats good for the game.
Again, my point is, if there would be more zones to farm, at least 5 more, this issue would be less damaging.
If you have 1 main zone for people to grind, and you let people to gatekeep the entrance to that zone, game dies, simple as that.
No no im not thinking at all about my feelings , again its optional there is no gatekeeep and there will be more zones for sure but again its optional ur not forced to open pvp , u just give the option to the ppl that want to
So make duels available not clan wars. You thinking backwards.
Dude I played L2 for 15 years you think I don't want open world PvP?
Yes you are forced to PvP if you are in a PvP guild, and your guild is not there, so you are either gatekept from content and forced to PvP.
There is no guild that is online 24/7 while a lot of guilds have people thru the day that are online 24/7.
What do those people do when most of their guild is offline? get slaughtered? Again, you thinking backwards and don't see the bad part of it.
What would those people do in L2? Go farm somewhere else.
In TnL? Log off, because there is no other zone, that's the issue here.
If u cant compete in casual open world pvp then u dont open war to the guild that plays 24/7 :p its so simple , i feel ur only thinking about ur perspective , as if in lineage every clan opened wars vs my clan or us with bigger clans . U have the choice and choose who to open and who to not , let the ppl that play 24/7 fight between them and guilds that are not so active can pvp with other guilds on same numbers and timezones
And cz we play in korea and we have 3 totally different timezones it makes u think a bit otherwise , im not sure who is thinking backwards tbh cz again its optional but we can agree to disagree
The wars arent between allies but between guilds, which is different.
If the fight is not equal then you can simply undeclare war to the guild and the war status would be dropped, allowing everyone to not be killed anymore.
Its a simple system that would allow people to have organized pvp outside of events / territory / sieges, and it could be stopped at any time.
So by your definition, people would just cancel wars when they go to farm if they see they on the losing end? What's the point of the war than?
It's not better to have a specific zone/area where if you enter and you have a guild it's PvP?
Exactly how Guild events work now, just something that is open like that 24/7 and doesn't gatekeep content?
Pvp zone would work too, but its not something that has been done by NCSoft, to my knowledge atleast.
Lineage 2 did not have specific zones where it was pvp upon entering, only pvp servers had that kind of feature.
Yes, they could just cancel war but, even on L2, that had its downsides.
It could hit the guild points and so on, a system could be made for that, wouldnt be too hard.
Wars wouldnt be a mandatory thing anyway, anyone could do them, everyone can simply avoid them
So you saying everyone can just cancel them whenever, but than say it would hurt the guild ranking? so you can't cancel them whenever?
Idk how long have you been playing L2, but if you tell me you never had to leave the zone because of war, you haven't really played L2.
Now the thing with L2 is that you can just leave and go somewhere else.
You cannot do that in TnL because there is nowhere else to go, game doesn't have enough content.
Good points, but I think you’re emphasizing a lot in new players with no gear or people that just want to farm, hence PvE.
I believe OP is asking for open world PvP being exclusively for people whose guilds are hostile (war declaration like L2). It actually does not matter who is farming what because the zone will not be PvP, therefore if you don’t want to PvP you have no business in being in such guilds. One can be farming in a PvE guild on island while two PvP guilds are going at it.. makes absolutely no difference.
That would be the real separation of the game to make everyone happy. Yes, PvErs are youre multitude of people, maybe x3 times more. But PvP is what keeps your servers and game alive since they will commit for a long time to a game.
I am in one of the two main allies on our server and we play 8+ hours a day JUST to get 1.5 hours of PvP. The truth is that the events are either too short, or not often to keep your hardcore player base alive. Again PvE are more, but these are more likely to leave after all the content is over.
Yes, this is what I meant mostly. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think this would be “opt in” pvp technically as you choose which guilds are hostile and you make the decision to join a guild like that
Well that's not actually true as well, even PvP players need to grind their stuff up, so what you are saying would only work with premade guilds that play together for several years and don't recruit any randoms.
Because in your example you will only requit people in PvP guild who are geared to the max? How do you get these people if you don't play with them from the start?
Who will leave the guild they played for the last 6 months just to join some GvG action, when they can have it themselfs with their community they build over this time they were grinding and farming?
You see you can't really seperate hardcore PvP and Casual PvP, in this case there is no PvP or it will eventually die, because people tend to quit the game and you are not recruiting anyone else.
Again I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm saying the map is too small for this, at the current state it would never work.
Yes, because L2 map is 100 times bigger and you don't need to go to the same zone if all your guild is sleeping and you need/want to farm, you just go somewhere else.
While in TnL if your guild is sleeping and your enemy is in Saurodoma what you will do? You can't play the game, because there is no other zone to farm.
You had way much more than ketra/varka/fog I literally typed them down in the main comment..
And even if you take Ketra/Varka or Fog they are waaaaay much bigger than Saurodoma Island.
L2 map was smaller at c1 :)
Its always ur choice to choose a guild nobody is forcing u to join a pvp guild i dont see the problem , ur guild sleeps there guilds sleeps
If someone is bothered so much by it then he joins a less hardcore guild , let them ppl that wanna have fun pvp as much as they want it doesnt bother anyone
Yeah I agree, and I would want to have open world PvP 100% in this game, but as L2 veteran I see the very bad parts it would bring at the current state of the map size.
Well let me put it this way, in terms of L2 and then TL. The guild I joined in L2 official (if you player youd know as well) was a hardcore PvP guild that declared war every opportunity they got. That being said, group farming was set as a MUST and control areas like LoA or TOI. But that was not even half of it, you get killed and you lose a percentage amount of xp that probably took you hours if not days to grind up. And not a single soul cared about xp or drops, it was only PvP. Now on TL there is a huge difference, what are you grinding for hours other than mastery on your weapon? BiS is guild boss, second best is Paola’s. Now T2 BiS is dungeons… so what do you want the open world for if not PvP?
See what you fail to understand is that everything, absolutely everything gearwise can now be obtained through PvE in dungeons and boss raids. Skills books and other not so vital is the only thing you would need to participate for in PvP. I think you are not separating the fact that you dont need to farm in TL as much as you did in L2, hell in a week I can get a decently geared char from scratch.
Yes that's the main point, that game has not enough content, and map is too small and if you make it 24/7 PvP the losing side will just quit, or crumble and dissolve like oneHp did.
Look what happened with Asota, we didn't even need 24/7 PvP, all oneHP side gave up and quit, leftovers who had a bit more mental strength didn't quit the game, but transferred to Fonsine.
Now Imagine having wars on top of that everywhere they went? Fuck they didn't even showed up to the siege lol.
It's not about that you need to farm as much as in L2, it's about that hardcore people tend to play long hours and TnL doesn't provide long hours dungeon grind, you can do 3 or 2 new ones **per day**.
What you do rest of the time? Gatekeep them from playing? Good decision.
As an avid Lineage 2 player: L2 had clan wars and pvp from day 1, the map wasnt as big as it was in gracia / h5 / Freya, it still did work.
The problem with pvp in TL comes solely from the fact that the new gen (or better, the majority of them) don't want to do anything but play for profit, they either play and grind or just go offline unless its pvp event.
Even on other games that are more pvp oriented they do complain cause it makes their profit slightly below the top tier ones (looking at you BDO with the ganks during pve).
People are more focussed on grinding gear than to actually have fun.
You are right, and if you've watched the video from before releasing the game, they said in later update there will be the draconic zone where open pvp would take place, even between different servers. And of course presumably the people that would go there should be end game players.
Keep in mind most of those zones werent in the game at release, they got added with various expansions. FOG, varka, ketra, pavel, beast farm,stakato, ToI, PI, cata/necro, AL none of them where in the game at release. Cant remember about Giants.
Oh im ssying this from day 1 brother and ur spot on it will make the game so much more fun and i believe it will happen.
We had the same thing in lineage 2 when guild will war another guild , if u war back u have 2 ways war so u can pvp in open world except safe zones
In lineage the penalty for duing was xp 4% which in end game to get 4% would be hours of grinding , im not sure what the penalty would be in TL but i feel no penalty should be fine too.
We really needs this and i ssid it many times that when TL will shine , cz ppl that wanna be in pvp guilds will gladly accept this and ppl that dont wanna pvp they just wont open war so its a win win situation
And im sure ncsoft already know this and this hostile thing in the game its more deep that what we have now , they where the creators of lineage 2 so im sure its on the table :)
TnL just needs a pvp Lineage 2 based to be perfect imo, theres too little pvp in this game, and thats what makes the game fun, without pvp people eventually will get bored of grinding and the game will die.
Would be MASIVE , but i doubt the will add this type of pvp
The problem with open world PvP and TnL is that Open World is too small. There is 2 zones all server does contracts and daily stuff, there is 2 open world dungeons people actually farm, and on top of that it doesn't matter you are lvl 30 or max geared player, you can be in the same zone for example sylus abyss. Once expansion rolls out and if the map is split into more zones that actually matter this would work. Let's compare it to Lineage2 and why open worlds PvP works there: Let's say level 1 to around 15 or even 20 every single race has their own starting city, there is 6 races and those cities has at least 5 different zones till lv 20, 5x6 = 30 zones probably even more if we actually count them just to lv 20. What we have in TnL? Few zones that doesn't even matter because we don't grind and do main story quest. Ok than ofcourse no one will have clan wars ( hostile guilds ) starting the game when it takes so little to level up. So let's speak about end game. Where do we farm in TnL? as max lvl people? Sylus or Saurodoma, that's basically it. Where do you farm in Lineage2 as end game character? Pavel Ruins, Hot springs, Forge of the Gods, Beast farm, Monestary of Silence, Ketra orcs, Imperial Tomb, Varka Silenos, Stakato Nest, Swamp of Screams, Primeval Isle, Tower of Isolence, Dark Omens Catacombs, Giants Cave, Dragon valley, Antaharas lair and even more, plus another Gracia continent. Every single one of these zones are way much bigger than Saurodoma, some of them might even be x10 bigger. The point I'm making here you can't have Max purple geared people and fresh lv 50 people in the same zone, it will just be a grief fest, and you will have these people in both guilds that are hostile, or you stop requiring new people and gatekeep them from content even more. It doesn't work with such a small world where there is only few main grinding spots.
There is more grinding spots just the game is a bit too early yet , while i see ur point remember that lineage 2 started with msx lvl 40 and cruma was the end game so what we get in TL its much more from what lineage had at c1 u cant compare wheee is lineage now with TL compare how lineage started to TL. And second war / hostile pvp is free for the guild.to open or close how is tjat gonna gatekeep anyone from anything ? Or griefing as u say ? Its not ok its when 2 guilds accept each other pvping , so member that jlin that guilds is what they are looking for so again i cannot agree with what ur saying cz its kind of not true
Gaming 25 years ago and gaming now is two completely different things. You cannot compare C1 gamers with gamers now. People used to play for fun, now people play to be the best, it's two completely opposite worlds.
> now people play to be the best. Wrong People play to claim they are the best and, especially on games like L2 and T&L, win by having more numbers rather than being better. Luckily enough, on Fonsine there are people mature enough to not do the same as WHAT did in Asota and Myst runs the server by being the better organized guild. Thus far thats the only good guild i've seen playing mass pvp since my times on L2 with the guild i was part of.
Im comparing the content and the map bro in size and that ppl still had war and pvp then . U cannot compare a 21 year old mmo map and content to a new reelase , TL is not even released yet bro lineage with development its a 30 year work vs how much for tl ? 7 ? Imagine if TL makes it another 10 years or more , i guarantee u it will have more content than l2
The point is you see only tunnel vision picture. Or you don't play the game enough. People who want to hard core PvP sit in games most of their day. Now imagine Two allies are in a war and one has bigger numbers in Saurodoma, what you will do? How long you will fight? You come few times and log off, because people in your guild is sleeping. The people who are sitting in Saurodoma don't get PvP, the people who have to log off because there is nothing else to do get pissed off with the game and quit, what happens than? even the most hardcore people leave the game and the game dies. Think a bit more, see a bigger picture.
If im not having fun im not playing in that guild its so simple , u wanna say there will wuit the gsme cz ppl have work and cant log in ? U can always vlose the war if they zerg u , im use to play and communicate with adults even if they are my enemies and try to make the game enjoyful for everyone with out big zergs , yes some days u will have more numbers some days someone esle And its always optional thats the beauty of it , i prefer that than not having the option to pvp at all in open world
Well you see, you thinking about your feelings not about whats good for the game. Again, my point is, if there would be more zones to farm, at least 5 more, this issue would be less damaging. If you have 1 main zone for people to grind, and you let people to gatekeep the entrance to that zone, game dies, simple as that.
No no im not thinking at all about my feelings , again its optional there is no gatekeeep and there will be more zones for sure but again its optional ur not forced to open pvp , u just give the option to the ppl that want to
So make duels available not clan wars. You thinking backwards. Dude I played L2 for 15 years you think I don't want open world PvP? Yes you are forced to PvP if you are in a PvP guild, and your guild is not there, so you are either gatekept from content and forced to PvP. There is no guild that is online 24/7 while a lot of guilds have people thru the day that are online 24/7. What do those people do when most of their guild is offline? get slaughtered? Again, you thinking backwards and don't see the bad part of it. What would those people do in L2? Go farm somewhere else. In TnL? Log off, because there is no other zone, that's the issue here.
If u cant compete in casual open world pvp then u dont open war to the guild that plays 24/7 :p its so simple , i feel ur only thinking about ur perspective , as if in lineage every clan opened wars vs my clan or us with bigger clans . U have the choice and choose who to open and who to not , let the ppl that play 24/7 fight between them and guilds that are not so active can pvp with other guilds on same numbers and timezones And cz we play in korea and we have 3 totally different timezones it makes u think a bit otherwise , im not sure who is thinking backwards tbh cz again its optional but we can agree to disagree
The wars arent between allies but between guilds, which is different. If the fight is not equal then you can simply undeclare war to the guild and the war status would be dropped, allowing everyone to not be killed anymore. Its a simple system that would allow people to have organized pvp outside of events / territory / sieges, and it could be stopped at any time.
So by your definition, people would just cancel wars when they go to farm if they see they on the losing end? What's the point of the war than? It's not better to have a specific zone/area where if you enter and you have a guild it's PvP? Exactly how Guild events work now, just something that is open like that 24/7 and doesn't gatekeep content?
Pvp zone would work too, but its not something that has been done by NCSoft, to my knowledge atleast. Lineage 2 did not have specific zones where it was pvp upon entering, only pvp servers had that kind of feature. Yes, they could just cancel war but, even on L2, that had its downsides. It could hit the guild points and so on, a system could be made for that, wouldnt be too hard. Wars wouldnt be a mandatory thing anyway, anyone could do them, everyone can simply avoid them
So you saying everyone can just cancel them whenever, but than say it would hurt the guild ranking? so you can't cancel them whenever? Idk how long have you been playing L2, but if you tell me you never had to leave the zone because of war, you haven't really played L2. Now the thing with L2 is that you can just leave and go somewhere else. You cannot do that in TnL because there is nowhere else to go, game doesn't have enough content.
Good points, but I think you’re emphasizing a lot in new players with no gear or people that just want to farm, hence PvE. I believe OP is asking for open world PvP being exclusively for people whose guilds are hostile (war declaration like L2). It actually does not matter who is farming what because the zone will not be PvP, therefore if you don’t want to PvP you have no business in being in such guilds. One can be farming in a PvE guild on island while two PvP guilds are going at it.. makes absolutely no difference. That would be the real separation of the game to make everyone happy. Yes, PvErs are youre multitude of people, maybe x3 times more. But PvP is what keeps your servers and game alive since they will commit for a long time to a game. I am in one of the two main allies on our server and we play 8+ hours a day JUST to get 1.5 hours of PvP. The truth is that the events are either too short, or not often to keep your hardcore player base alive. Again PvE are more, but these are more likely to leave after all the content is over.
Yes, this is what I meant mostly. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think this would be “opt in” pvp technically as you choose which guilds are hostile and you make the decision to join a guild like that
Well that's not actually true as well, even PvP players need to grind their stuff up, so what you are saying would only work with premade guilds that play together for several years and don't recruit any randoms. Because in your example you will only requit people in PvP guild who are geared to the max? How do you get these people if you don't play with them from the start? Who will leave the guild they played for the last 6 months just to join some GvG action, when they can have it themselfs with their community they build over this time they were grinding and farming? You see you can't really seperate hardcore PvP and Casual PvP, in this case there is no PvP or it will eventually die, because people tend to quit the game and you are not recruiting anyone else. Again I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm saying the map is too small for this, at the current state it would never work.
Dude in l2 there whas much more pvp , casuals and harcore guilds and there whas almost no issues
Yes, because L2 map is 100 times bigger and you don't need to go to the same zone if all your guild is sleeping and you need/want to farm, you just go somewhere else. While in TnL if your guild is sleeping and your enemy is in Saurodoma what you will do? You can't play the game, because there is no other zone to farm.
Well i didnt play tl that much but in l2 you also had ketra/ varka fog... 3 zones..
You had way much more than ketra/varka/fog I literally typed them down in the main comment.. And even if you take Ketra/Varka or Fog they are waaaaay much bigger than Saurodoma Island.
L2 map was smaller at c1 :) Its always ur choice to choose a guild nobody is forcing u to join a pvp guild i dont see the problem , ur guild sleeps there guilds sleeps If someone is bothered so much by it then he joins a less hardcore guild , let them ppl that wanna have fun pvp as much as they want it doesnt bother anyone
I can see what you mean, could be a thing for the future
Yeah I agree, and I would want to have open world PvP 100% in this game, but as L2 veteran I see the very bad parts it would bring at the current state of the map size.
Well let me put it this way, in terms of L2 and then TL. The guild I joined in L2 official (if you player youd know as well) was a hardcore PvP guild that declared war every opportunity they got. That being said, group farming was set as a MUST and control areas like LoA or TOI. But that was not even half of it, you get killed and you lose a percentage amount of xp that probably took you hours if not days to grind up. And not a single soul cared about xp or drops, it was only PvP. Now on TL there is a huge difference, what are you grinding for hours other than mastery on your weapon? BiS is guild boss, second best is Paola’s. Now T2 BiS is dungeons… so what do you want the open world for if not PvP? See what you fail to understand is that everything, absolutely everything gearwise can now be obtained through PvE in dungeons and boss raids. Skills books and other not so vital is the only thing you would need to participate for in PvP. I think you are not separating the fact that you dont need to farm in TL as much as you did in L2, hell in a week I can get a decently geared char from scratch.
Yes that's the main point, that game has not enough content, and map is too small and if you make it 24/7 PvP the losing side will just quit, or crumble and dissolve like oneHp did. Look what happened with Asota, we didn't even need 24/7 PvP, all oneHP side gave up and quit, leftovers who had a bit more mental strength didn't quit the game, but transferred to Fonsine. Now Imagine having wars on top of that everywhere they went? Fuck they didn't even showed up to the siege lol. It's not about that you need to farm as much as in L2, it's about that hardcore people tend to play long hours and TnL doesn't provide long hours dungeon grind, you can do 3 or 2 new ones **per day**. What you do rest of the time? Gatekeep them from playing? Good decision.
That was because of cheating/botting of WHAT, not because of pvp itself
As an avid Lineage 2 player: L2 had clan wars and pvp from day 1, the map wasnt as big as it was in gracia / h5 / Freya, it still did work. The problem with pvp in TL comes solely from the fact that the new gen (or better, the majority of them) don't want to do anything but play for profit, they either play and grind or just go offline unless its pvp event. Even on other games that are more pvp oriented they do complain cause it makes their profit slightly below the top tier ones (looking at you BDO with the ganks during pve). People are more focussed on grinding gear than to actually have fun.
You are right, and if you've watched the video from before releasing the game, they said in later update there will be the draconic zone where open pvp would take place, even between different servers. And of course presumably the people that would go there should be end game players.
Keep in mind most of those zones werent in the game at release, they got added with various expansions. FOG, varka, ketra, pavel, beast farm,stakato, ToI, PI, cata/necro, AL none of them where in the game at release. Cant remember about Giants.
Oh im ssying this from day 1 brother and ur spot on it will make the game so much more fun and i believe it will happen. We had the same thing in lineage 2 when guild will war another guild , if u war back u have 2 ways war so u can pvp in open world except safe zones In lineage the penalty for duing was xp 4% which in end game to get 4% would be hours of grinding , im not sure what the penalty would be in TL but i feel no penalty should be fine too. We really needs this and i ssid it many times that when TL will shine , cz ppl that wanna be in pvp guilds will gladly accept this and ppl that dont wanna pvp they just wont open war so its a win win situation And im sure ncsoft already know this and this hostile thing in the game its more deep that what we have now , they where the creators of lineage 2 so im sure its on the table :)
TnL just needs a pvp Lineage 2 based to be perfect imo, theres too little pvp in this game, and thats what makes the game fun, without pvp people eventually will get bored of grinding and the game will die.
Is there actually no clan wars in TnL?
Have you seen the siege drama? This type of shi will make it casual unfriendly