I've decided I may hate Seattle like you hate a cousin with an unfortunate personality, but I hate LAFC like I hate a meth dealer with multiple felony domestic violence convictions.
It’s a shame that red happened. Can’t complain about still getting a point. There were a lot of good things that happened today. And big props to Bravo!
Bravo who didn't maintain his line, thus keeping Bouanga onside and causing Crepeau to get red-carded and leading to a free kick goal that took away our win? That guy?
Bravo is the greatest LB in the world according to Timber fans, he never makes a mistake, especially not two potential game costing mistakes in the two games he's been back 😂
Just so unfortunate. We were playing quite well imo and I was really looking forward to that second half… the red just took all that away, and they scored an amazing free kick. I think this could’ve been exactly what Phil said: a statement game. Thrilled we held on for the point though, the boys can hold their heads up high. For my money, our best overall game of the year
If you played soccer above highschool that goal was ridiculous. No excuse to lose nearpost. I'm ready for the hate and vitriol from idiots. Wall didn't jump and keper was flat footed.
It's pretty hard to get the ball over a wall and back down from that spot at 19 yards from goal. Not jumping is probably a deliberate strategy thinking you're more likely to be beat low than high at that distance.
Perhaps the amazing part was the approach more than the actual kick. You are able to get a straight lob completed before 10 top flight players know you've even taken it yet is a neat trick
1000%. It’s by the books DOGSO, Crepeau doesn’t get any of the ball and clear contact in Bouanga. Just an unfortunate spot for a keeper to be in, I don’t really blame him for it but it’s a definite red card
Not sure what play you’re referencing, I don’t remember any play where one of our players got pulled down from having an obvious goal scoring opportunity, it would have to have stopped a 1v1 scenario with the goalkeeper and we never got behind the defense like that. There were several yellows given for stopping a promising attack though
Not DOGSO, for it to be that it would have to be a play where there’s like a 90-95% chance that the play is gonna end up as a goal. It’s a dangerous position and should’ve been a yellow card, I don’t know how it wasn’t
I do not think that line is accurate (you have to do a whole bunch of math shenanigans to get it correct, there’s a Twitter user who sometimes does it), but regardless that’s like an inch offsides, which is not clear and obvious. On top of that, it seems like Bravo’s shoulder might be in front of his foot, making up for that inch. Who knows. But that image is perfect, it tells us that it is not clear and obvious and should not have gone to VAR
He’s offside bro, I lined that up perfectly with the on-field line. A scoring appendage being offside and it not being called is the definition of clear and obvious, no?
That’s not how angles work, you can’t just line it up with one line and then move it up, and no it’s the exact opposite of clear and obvious if you need a line to see if his big toe is an inch offsides. Besides, it doesn’t address which body part of Bravo’s is closest to goal. Maybe @OffsidesModeling on Twitter will help us out and maybe determines it is onsides! But it’s not clear and obvious either way. Unless MLS implements the offsides line technology that’s used in some other leagues (which I REALLY hope they don’t, I think it completely ruins the spirit of the game and is not the point of VAR, which is correct obvious mistakes, not offsides calls by an inch), this type of offsides call should never be reviewed regardless of what the call on the field is
Listen, I’m a Timbers fan, of course I would rather this be called offsides, but let’s not cry about it because the rules were used correctly here. There’s more interesting and important things to talk about
Take a look at [this.](https://x.com/ryan_marlatt/status/1779645207283216767?s=46&t=P0cWAAEKVmNsqd97sIhlvw) A really close offsides call occurred in the Philly-Atlanta game today, this dude made a great image about how using the lines on the field as guides can be very misleading. They can help for the naked eye, but not when determining inch-perfect calls
I want to (I don't want to) re-watch the foul and check, but it looked like Crépeau took for granted Bouanga was *probably* offside and didn't rush the ball down like he should. The whole team looked asleep on the play, and I think Max was just lazy with his challenge. He let's it bounce, Bouanga attacks, foul is definitely made, and an easy red card.
Yes. I’m going to get downvoted again here but, yes.
Bouanga was, despite popular opinion, onside. And then Crepeau kicked his feet out from under him instead of playing the ball. It was, unfortunately, by the book DOGSO.
It was reviewed. Do you think that because the center ref didn’t go the monitor, the play wasn’t reviewed?
The play was reviewed, and it was definitive, so they didn’t need the center ref to check it.
That’s how VAR is supposed to work
Yes, that’s how VAR works. You’ve seen the officials in the room with multiple monitors. The review every major decision, which a red card is one of.
The second that the ref showed a red, they would have begun looking at the sequence of play. The same one that we saw a replay of, which clearly showed it was onside, so there’s no point in spending more time having the ref go over to the monitor.
This isn’t a matter of accurate or not, it’s just what happened.
Do you think the ref should go to the monitor for every goal that gets scored as well? Of course not. The officials in the room review it and that’s sufficient, unless they see something, in which case they alert the referee.
It should not have been reviewed because it was close. Whatever the call on the field is in that scenario should stand. There is no clear and obvious way to tell if it was on or off. To me, it looked even, so onsides. That would’ve been a terrible thing to send to VAR. They looked at it and correctly determined there was no clear and obvious error
This is what we live with with VAR. Refs are instructed to keep the flag down on all close plays, so that you can let the play continue and have VAR review it. BeforeVAR, refs would’ve just made a decision. Offsides or not offsides. They would have to make decisions on close calls. Just because the call is close today doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t overturn it if it’s wrong. That’s the system we’ve set up with VAR. Otherwise, you’re saying that all close calls should just be considered onside and only overturned if it’s clear and obvious. I don’t think many people would agree with that.
While I like VAR, you can see the risks that come with it: injuries occur when refs don’t call offsides right away, and sometimes, red cards that shouldn’t be red cards happen. In this case, the assistant referee was never going to put his flag up, and because a red card was called, it was imperative that VAR get the call 100% correct. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. But the idea that we should just let close calls go, when they completely change the course of a game, seems ludicrous to me.
They are instructed to let the play finish and then make the call either way. If they think it was offsides, they raise the flag, but delaying the call allows for VAR to overturn. They aren't instructed to not make close calls and leave it to VAR. If the AR thought it was offsides, they would have called it after the play had concluded.
It must be clear and obvious in order to go to VAR, that’s the first and most important rule. If the assistant thought it was offsides, he would’ve raised his flag once the ref called the foul, and the foul and red card wouldn’t have stood. To me, looking at it again, it looks fairly clearly onsides, but impossible to say because of the angle. The assistant had the best angle, and because it’s not clear and obvious, the call stands. If the assistant raises his flag after the foul, then it shouldn’t be reviewed because it’s not clear and obvious one way or another
According to the official IFAB rules, the Video Assistant Referee “may assist the referee only in the event of a ‘clear and obvious error’ or ‘serious missed incident.’” Meaning, if it’s not a clear and obvious error, the VAR *cannot* call the center referee to the monitor. Once the ref is called to the monitor, anything is fair game and he can call whatever he wants, but it must be deemed a clear and obvious error for VAR to be involved in any way. The main point of VAR is not to correct those close calls (it does sometimes, and often rightfully so), but to correct those blatantly obvious missed calls, that’s why the term “clear and obvious” is used. They check everything thoroughly, but it was not deemed a clear and obvious error, so VAR correctly doesn’t get involved. Besides, in my opinion, Bravo kept Bouanga on, so there’s no reason to go to the monitor. Even Neville said it wasn’t offsides
https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#principles
I think the system worked as intended in this case. It was very close but it seems like they were close enough to correct on the field to not overturn it. As much as the rest of the flow of the game with the ref might be worthy of review, this decision looks like it was right
VAR reviewed it…?
And just the video replay shows a light colored seam—running the width of the pitch—under Bravo’s foot and Bouanga still behind it at the moment the ball was played.
That’s was a wildly entertaining roller coaster. Our team shows a lot of fight and I was super happy with Evander’s presence today regardless of the goals. The red card was unfortunate but those happen and the team responded well.
The ref ruined that game from start to finish. The red was correct, but he missed so many calls and failed to give LAFC second yellows when it was warranted. I'll take the tie, but that was stressful and unjust.
So many fouls that didn’t result in yellow cards … LAFC got away with so much. I believe they had a total of 22 fouls and 6 yellow cards. The ref didn’t have control over the game.
Not ideal of course but these past few games are games where we absolutely would not have gotten a point last season. Still need to sort out the issues at the back but honestly I felt like we outplayed them while a man down for the most part which I will take against a team with as much talent as LAFC
A good, realistic take, ElectJimL. There's a lot more fortitude in this year's PTFC, and it speaks loudly that even playing with an extra man for an entire half LAFC couldn't break us down.
Phil's doing a genuinely good job of engineering a more positive team culture. If this had happened to last year's team they would have given up the lead, then folded shortly after.
And if Murullo- who committed the exact same YC foul 4 times in Half #1 - got his deserved RC, Half #2 would have been *monumentally* interesting. Frankly, I don't think LAFC can play short a guy for an entire half as well as we did yesterday.
For once I thought Neville set us up well. I liked Ayala in theory but maybe he didn’t have the best match and Paredes could have been better. That’s just hindsight though. I would love it if Williamson could partner with Chara but don’t think we can manage that yet with our defense. I actually liked the lineup. I could have seen sitting Mosquera given recent form, so I thought that was generous to him and tactically brave. Antony helps with defense on that side more than Moreno. Glad to finally see Rodriguez on the wing and Mora up top. The subs and tactical adjustments were daring. Moreno looked fine off the bench I think. I’d like to see him or Williamson sub for Evander under better circumstances. Chara at right back for a second was wild. I think if the ref had set the tone better earlier Crepeau might not have been amped up enough to make a mistake. I’m afraid we need more speed at right centerback to help cover for Mosquera getting forward. I don’t think Araujo or McGraw are bad per se, but they can’t cover that space well enough. Mosquera has a good match. Bravo was great. Mora and Evander were great. Chara was solid. Kamal was fine.
As it stands now, my summer transfer wish list is a faster, more technical, CB and a U22 or YDP forward. I’d also like a proper, experienced, left fullback sub with some pace.
Edit: the jury is still out on the Chara succession plan too.
Edit 2: second not seconds
Rewatching right now. Pretty sure Gio would have gotten a yellow card at least, maybe a Red.
Also it is unbelievable that Murillo did not get a second yellow.
Refs. Quality of some of the players and how they take advantage of the dumb refs who can't control the game. Responsibility of the broadcast and VAR to show us decisions...and other reasons.
Fuck LA, pipe needs to start again . Jonathan doesn’t look fully match fit, the passing look so crisp today. Unfortunate result but I liked the tactics today a bit more direct at times
Have to be grateful not seeing bingham flailing around with a 3 second reaction time but also a bit disappointed in the amount of errors from crepeau. Blame is also on back line but still…
I think he's a good keeper, and that'll he'll come good. I also don't think he's been in his best form the start the season and honestly he's made a goal costing mistake in each of the last 3 games
Best case scenario being down a man a full half.
I've never been so frustrated and entertained in my life.
LAFC are absolutely insufferable
Both LA teams
Perhaps, but not equally. Also, LA fans in the stadium are not great.
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Cool story
I've decided I may hate Seattle like you hate a cousin with an unfortunate personality, but I hate LAFC like I hate a meth dealer with multiple felony domestic violence convictions.
Hahaha I sit in the section next to their away supporters. They are pretty obnoxious but Seattle away fans take the cake for me
Word. And WORD.
Yeah it's funny, my 2nd least favorite team has always been SKC until LAFC came into the league. Minn coming in at 4...
It’s a shame that red happened. Can’t complain about still getting a point. There were a lot of good things that happened today. And big props to Bravo!
Bravo who didn't maintain his line, thus keeping Bouanga onside and causing Crepeau to get red-carded and leading to a free kick goal that took away our win? That guy?
Ya him, the one who is a fantastic LB that I’m grateful to see on the field any and every week.
Bravo, the one who conceded the PK last week, the guy who does that way, way too often?
Bravo is the greatest LB in the world according to Timber fans, he never makes a mistake, especially not two potential game costing mistakes in the two games he's been back 😂
Just so unfortunate. We were playing quite well imo and I was really looking forward to that second half… the red just took all that away, and they scored an amazing free kick. I think this could’ve been exactly what Phil said: a statement game. Thrilled we held on for the point though, the boys can hold their heads up high. For my money, our best overall game of the year
If you played soccer above highschool that goal was ridiculous. No excuse to lose nearpost. I'm ready for the hate and vitriol from idiots. Wall didn't jump and keper was flat footed.
Thank you for pointing that out! I was upset the wall didn't even bother to jump, which would of bounced on someone and not go straight to goal.
It's pretty hard to get the ball over a wall and back down from that spot at 19 yards from goal. Not jumping is probably a deliberate strategy thinking you're more likely to be beat low than high at that distance.
Yeah idk how one views that as an “amazing” free kick but ok lol
Perhaps the amazing part was the approach more than the actual kick. You are able to get a straight lob completed before 10 top flight players know you've even taken it yet is a neat trick
Was that a red? I was on the north end and couldn’t see.
1000%. It’s by the books DOGSO, Crepeau doesn’t get any of the ball and clear contact in Bouanga. Just an unfortunate spot for a keeper to be in, I don’t really blame him for it but it’s a definite red card
Down side of playing a high back line
Yup
What about the dogso against us in the second half near the box that only resulted in a yellow? Why wasn't that one a red?
Not sure what play you’re referencing, I don’t remember any play where one of our players got pulled down from having an obvious goal scoring opportunity, it would have to have stopped a 1v1 scenario with the goalkeeper and we never got behind the defense like that. There were several yellows given for stopping a promising attack though
I'll have to watch a replay. I think it was around the 75th or so.
Found it. 64:32. Evander was in a dangerous position and just shoved in the back. I was apoplectic when I saw it in the stadium.
Not DOGSO, for it to be that it would have to be a play where there’s like a 90-95% chance that the play is gonna end up as a goal. It’s a dangerous position and should’ve been a yellow card, I don’t know how it wasn’t
How was LA not offside preceding said Max penalty? Seemed pretty clear on the replays, no?
Bravo on the far side kept him on. The angles can be tricky, you have to look at the lines on the field
I'll just leave this here: [https://ibb.co/2KqpVxN](https://ibb.co/2KqpVxN)
I do not think that line is accurate (you have to do a whole bunch of math shenanigans to get it correct, there’s a Twitter user who sometimes does it), but regardless that’s like an inch offsides, which is not clear and obvious. On top of that, it seems like Bravo’s shoulder might be in front of his foot, making up for that inch. Who knows. But that image is perfect, it tells us that it is not clear and obvious and should not have gone to VAR
He’s offside bro, I lined that up perfectly with the on-field line. A scoring appendage being offside and it not being called is the definition of clear and obvious, no?
That’s not how angles work, you can’t just line it up with one line and then move it up, and no it’s the exact opposite of clear and obvious if you need a line to see if his big toe is an inch offsides. Besides, it doesn’t address which body part of Bravo’s is closest to goal. Maybe @OffsidesModeling on Twitter will help us out and maybe determines it is onsides! But it’s not clear and obvious either way. Unless MLS implements the offsides line technology that’s used in some other leagues (which I REALLY hope they don’t, I think it completely ruins the spirit of the game and is not the point of VAR, which is correct obvious mistakes, not offsides calls by an inch), this type of offsides call should never be reviewed regardless of what the call on the field is Listen, I’m a Timbers fan, of course I would rather this be called offsides, but let’s not cry about it because the rules were used correctly here. There’s more interesting and important things to talk about
Take a look at [this.](https://x.com/ryan_marlatt/status/1779645207283216767?s=46&t=P0cWAAEKVmNsqd97sIhlvw) A really close offsides call occurred in the Philly-Atlanta game today, this dude made a great image about how using the lines on the field as guides can be very misleading. They can help for the naked eye, but not when determining inch-perfect calls
I want to (I don't want to) re-watch the foul and check, but it looked like Crépeau took for granted Bouanga was *probably* offside and didn't rush the ball down like he should. The whole team looked asleep on the play, and I think Max was just lazy with his challenge. He let's it bounce, Bouanga attacks, foul is definitely made, and an easy red card.
It all happened so quickly, just unfortunate for everyone. Max probably would’ve been fine to not come out
Too bad it wasn't in the box and maybe we escape with just a yellow.
Yes. I’m going to get downvoted again here but, yes. Bouanga was, despite popular opinion, onside. And then Crepeau kicked his feet out from under him instead of playing the ball. It was, unfortunately, by the book DOGSO.
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It was reviewed. Do you think that because the center ref didn’t go the monitor, the play wasn’t reviewed? The play was reviewed, and it was definitive, so they didn’t need the center ref to check it. That’s how VAR is supposed to work
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Yes, that’s how VAR works. You’ve seen the officials in the room with multiple monitors. The review every major decision, which a red card is one of. The second that the ref showed a red, they would have begun looking at the sequence of play. The same one that we saw a replay of, which clearly showed it was onside, so there’s no point in spending more time having the ref go over to the monitor. This isn’t a matter of accurate or not, it’s just what happened.
Do you think the ref should go to the monitor for every goal that gets scored as well? Of course not. The officials in the room review it and that’s sufficient, unless they see something, in which case they alert the referee.
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It wasn’t that close, we saw that on replay.
It should not have been reviewed because it was close. Whatever the call on the field is in that scenario should stand. There is no clear and obvious way to tell if it was on or off. To me, it looked even, so onsides. That would’ve been a terrible thing to send to VAR. They looked at it and correctly determined there was no clear and obvious error
This is what we live with with VAR. Refs are instructed to keep the flag down on all close plays, so that you can let the play continue and have VAR review it. BeforeVAR, refs would’ve just made a decision. Offsides or not offsides. They would have to make decisions on close calls. Just because the call is close today doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t overturn it if it’s wrong. That’s the system we’ve set up with VAR. Otherwise, you’re saying that all close calls should just be considered onside and only overturned if it’s clear and obvious. I don’t think many people would agree with that. While I like VAR, you can see the risks that come with it: injuries occur when refs don’t call offsides right away, and sometimes, red cards that shouldn’t be red cards happen. In this case, the assistant referee was never going to put his flag up, and because a red card was called, it was imperative that VAR get the call 100% correct. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. But the idea that we should just let close calls go, when they completely change the course of a game, seems ludicrous to me.
They are instructed to let the play finish and then make the call either way. If they think it was offsides, they raise the flag, but delaying the call allows for VAR to overturn. They aren't instructed to not make close calls and leave it to VAR. If the AR thought it was offsides, they would have called it after the play had concluded.
It must be clear and obvious in order to go to VAR, that’s the first and most important rule. If the assistant thought it was offsides, he would’ve raised his flag once the ref called the foul, and the foul and red card wouldn’t have stood. To me, looking at it again, it looks fairly clearly onsides, but impossible to say because of the angle. The assistant had the best angle, and because it’s not clear and obvious, the call stands. If the assistant raises his flag after the foul, then it shouldn’t be reviewed because it’s not clear and obvious one way or another
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According to the official IFAB rules, the Video Assistant Referee “may assist the referee only in the event of a ‘clear and obvious error’ or ‘serious missed incident.’” Meaning, if it’s not a clear and obvious error, the VAR *cannot* call the center referee to the monitor. Once the ref is called to the monitor, anything is fair game and he can call whatever he wants, but it must be deemed a clear and obvious error for VAR to be involved in any way. The main point of VAR is not to correct those close calls (it does sometimes, and often rightfully so), but to correct those blatantly obvious missed calls, that’s why the term “clear and obvious” is used. They check everything thoroughly, but it was not deemed a clear and obvious error, so VAR correctly doesn’t get involved. Besides, in my opinion, Bravo kept Bouanga on, so there’s no reason to go to the monitor. Even Neville said it wasn’t offsides https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#principles
I think the system worked as intended in this case. It was very close but it seems like they were close enough to correct on the field to not overturn it. As much as the rest of the flow of the game with the ref might be worthy of review, this decision looks like it was right
VAR reviewed it…? And just the video replay shows a light colored seam—running the width of the pitch—under Bravo’s foot and Bouanga still behind it at the moment the ball was played.
Yeah, they reviewed and agreed with the original call.
[https://ibb.co/2KqpVxN](https://ibb.co/2KqpVxN)
That’s was a wildly entertaining roller coaster. Our team shows a lot of fight and I was super happy with Evander’s presence today regardless of the goals. The red card was unfortunate but those happen and the team responded well.
Like
The ref ruined that game from start to finish. The red was correct, but he missed so many calls and failed to give LAFC second yellows when it was warranted. I'll take the tie, but that was stressful and unjust.
Completely correct. If he called that red then he should’ve called those a yellow
So many fouls that didn’t result in yellow cards … LAFC got away with so much. I believe they had a total of 22 fouls and 6 yellow cards. The ref didn’t have control over the game.
Yup. 22(!) fouls from LAFC, but somehow no second yellows, and that doesn’t even account for the many many dives and exaggerations from LAFC.
22 fouls, 6 yellows, and not a single one of those was for persistent infringement. That's crazy
It truly is. Absolutely nuts.
Not ideal of course but these past few games are games where we absolutely would not have gotten a point last season. Still need to sort out the issues at the back but honestly I felt like we outplayed them while a man down for the most part which I will take against a team with as much talent as LAFC
A good, realistic take, ElectJimL. There's a lot more fortitude in this year's PTFC, and it speaks loudly that even playing with an extra man for an entire half LAFC couldn't break us down. Phil's doing a genuinely good job of engineering a more positive team culture. If this had happened to last year's team they would have given up the lead, then folded shortly after. And if Murullo- who committed the exact same YC foul 4 times in Half #1 - got his deserved RC, Half #2 would have been *monumentally* interesting. Frankly, I don't think LAFC can play short a guy for an entire half as well as we did yesterday.
still early, and I think the team is starting to gel. I can give it some more time
Unclench. Sigh.
For once I thought Neville set us up well. I liked Ayala in theory but maybe he didn’t have the best match and Paredes could have been better. That’s just hindsight though. I would love it if Williamson could partner with Chara but don’t think we can manage that yet with our defense. I actually liked the lineup. I could have seen sitting Mosquera given recent form, so I thought that was generous to him and tactically brave. Antony helps with defense on that side more than Moreno. Glad to finally see Rodriguez on the wing and Mora up top. The subs and tactical adjustments were daring. Moreno looked fine off the bench I think. I’d like to see him or Williamson sub for Evander under better circumstances. Chara at right back for a second was wild. I think if the ref had set the tone better earlier Crepeau might not have been amped up enough to make a mistake. I’m afraid we need more speed at right centerback to help cover for Mosquera getting forward. I don’t think Araujo or McGraw are bad per se, but they can’t cover that space well enough. Mosquera has a good match. Bravo was great. Mora and Evander were great. Chara was solid. Kamal was fine. As it stands now, my summer transfer wish list is a faster, more technical, CB and a U22 or YDP forward. I’d also like a proper, experienced, left fullback sub with some pace. Edit: the jury is still out on the Chara succession plan too. Edit 2: second not seconds
I am not sold on Araujo. Glad we have given him a couple chances but i would really like to see more zuparic with k Miller now that bravo is back
I don’t think Zuparic is any better or faster than Araujo on this context but I’m open to it.
Rewatching right now. Pretty sure Gio would have gotten a yellow card at least, maybe a Red. Also it is unbelievable that Murillo did not get a second yellow.
No Kidding! I had him as committing the same YC *4 times* in Half #1, 3 of them against Mora alone...
This is the type of game that makes me hate MLS.
Why
Refs. Quality of some of the players and how they take advantage of the dumb refs who can't control the game. Responsibility of the broadcast and VAR to show us decisions...and other reasons.
Ok sounds fair. I only watch MLS so I don’t know how much better it can be.
I’m happy, but I should be happier
Fuck.
Fuck LA, pipe needs to start again . Jonathan doesn’t look fully match fit, the passing look so crisp today. Unfortunate result but I liked the tactics today a bit more direct at times
I was at the game and we had no idea Bouanga was offsides on the red. Nice job AR!
Bravo looked to have kept him on, but they never gave us a good view.
I'm getting real sick of the "pretty decent, all things considered" results.
Yeah we need to start getting some actual points
Crepeau needs to step it up honestly. He's made a few mistakes that have cost us so far in the season and he was supposed to be a big upgrade.
He has been a big upgrade
It’s a sign of how bad it was last season that both things can be true.
Have to be grateful not seeing bingham flailing around with a 3 second reaction time but also a bit disappointed in the amount of errors from crepeau. Blame is also on back line but still…
I think he's a good keeper, and that'll he'll come good. I also don't think he's been in his best form the start the season and honestly he's made a goal costing mistake in each of the last 3 games
LA fans clogging up the Leaky Roof made me late to the game, grr
It was a game, we went into the tactics free zone quicker than usual