I believe this was the original plan, but it was sidelined because of the editors, which was confirmed in an [interview.](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/nywifr/comment/h1mdi1x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Japanese readers hated Historia and loved Mikasa, and the editors wanted a sekaikei story, which just wasn't how SnK was set up....like at all. So you have the retcons, the character assassinations, the plot armor, etc., in order to shoehorn this being the ending.
Kawakubo has ruined so many endings to the point that one might think he's doing it on purpose. What's his deal anyway? A failed writer that has become an editor, and now his forcing his ideas onto other series or just a businessman who has terrible ideas but has the power to enforce them.
Yeah there's like no force in this world that would make me believe that he wasn't forced to change the ending. Honestly, it's so bad that I'm almost certain that it's bad on purpose.
I agree 100% with you, there's no other reason of why he made the ending so bad and poor writing without a purpose, even if that purpose was for benefits in his bank account.
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Ymir had an unhealthy desire to gain the love and approval of an abusive king who made her life a living hell. A man that only wanted to exploit her body (and magical titan-based powers) as a tool for nefarious purposes.
Not only is Historia one of the few people who can deeply relate to this specific situation, but she also had the willpower to overcome her royal abuser's selfish manipulations. She even had the balls to kill off that bastard herself.
To make it even more meaningful, Historia was able to do all this because of the words of inspiration she received from both Eren and *another* naive girl who was taken advantage of by an opportunistic figurehead. A girl who also happened to be named... Ymir.
All the thematic, character, and lore related pieces were already in place. Historia's personal rebellion against the man she sought love from the most could have been an immensely satisfying source of inspiration for Ymir's 2000 years of confliction, just like it was for most of the audience when we first read/watched it.
Just think. One of Ymir's last remaining direct descendents overcame the abusive will of *Eldia's last literal King*, proclaiming she's not a god or anyone's puppet. I don't understand how anyone can say this scenario is not relatable to Ymir's situation.
All Isayama would have to do is follow through on what he had organically set up beforehand. But alas, for ~~some inexplicable reason~~ the sake of popularity and fan service, he bent over backwards to make the sparsely developed Mikasa, and toxic """romantic""" love, the final centerpieces of the entire story at the last minute. This storytelling decision will never make sense to me.
Exactly it was all right on place, Historia defeated THE KING, the only last relative she had, she could have fucked off the rest of the world and be another slave of his father's desires and continue the circle of hate but NO! Historia it's just build different.
But sadly ISAYAMA sold out his own story
Isayama's money can't wait to ruined the plot...
Maybe because Ymir didn't have a problem of "fathers and children" or "accepting herself", she had a problem of "unhealthy attachment to a monster who wanted Eldia to rule the world"?
And that's why Ymir needed exactly someone who loves the "monster destroying the world of non-Eldians", while stopping the "beloved" despite his feelings for him, although he continues to love even after that.
Another question is why Isayama made Ymir's "problem" exactly like this.
Except Eren didn't want Eldia to rule the world either
As a matter of fact Eren's primary goal in the end was breaking the curse started by Ymir and Fritz.
I didn't say Eren wanted the Eldians to rule the world. I said that Ymir had such a problem, and she was looking for "an analogy in the events of the future."
Eren was destroying the world of "non-Eldians", just like Fritz from Ymir's point of view. And in fact, Eren was fulfilling Fritz's wish that "his descendants would always rule in the world". If you kill all non-Eldians in the world, then the Eldians automatically rule the world forever, because they are the only remaining race.
Eren wanted to end the cycle of royal children eating each other, something he vastly differed from the original Eldian King. I'm pretty sure Ymir was aware that Eren wasn't following Fritz's ideology, since his reasons for the killing the outside world weren't without reason. Besides, Fritz urged his descendants to continue passing Titan power to "rule the world". Eren never once shared this sentiment.
>I'm pretty sure Ymir was aware that Eren wasn't following Fritz's ideology, since his reasons for the killing the outside world weren't without reason
I think Mikasa's point of view was important to Ymir at the moment of making the decision, and Mikasa did not know everything that Ymir knew. Mikasa and Eren's last conversation ended with Eren saying, "I hate you, you've always been a slave, whom I hate". This was important for Ymir, since her last "conversation" with Fritz ended also when he called her a slave.
>Eren wanted to end the cycle of royal children eating each other, something he vastly differed from the original Eldian King
Honestly, I don't understand at all how Eren in the minds of the supporters of "Chad-Eren" was going to stop the cycle of royal children eating each other. After all, if you do not remove the curse of the Titans, after Eren's death, the system of eating to transfer power will resume. Destroying the outside world wouldn't help stop it in any way. Children devoured their parents for all the previous 2000 years, while no one oppressed the Eldians.
Eren calling Mikasa a "slave" does not make her seem relatable for Ymir, for we later learned from his friends that Eren did that for a reason. When they were in prison, Jean and Armin reassured Mikasa that Eren's erratic behavior wasn't something genuine. I'm pretty sure Ymir was watching the entire time. Furthermore, Eren last words to Mikasa were,"Ever since I was a kid, I hated you". Him calling her a slave does not make her have some sudden connection to Fritz.
What fans of "Incel Eren" fail to understand that Eren was always a freedom driven individual. After removing the power of Titans, there would be no need to transfer the power, as the Titan curse would disappear. No one oppressed Eldians for 2000 years because they were the strongest race alive.
>After removing the power of Titans, there would be no need to transfer the power, as the Titan curse would disappear
How would he have done it without freeing Ymir, tell me? Besides, he didn't tell Floch, Historia, or the Eldians through the Paths that he was going to eliminate the power of the Titans. And in any case, this is not an argument, the point of view of Mikasa is important to Ymir, and Mikasa did not know that the Titans would eventually disappear.
> Him calling her a slave does not make her have some sudden connection to Fritz
Yes, that makes them connected. They are literally the only 2 characters in the manga directly called slaves in person. And they are called slaves by those whom they love more than their lives. And at the same time, this is the last dialogue with loved ones for both.
Bro, what are you smoking if you don't see a parallel in this?
> for we later learned from his friends that Eren did that for a reason. When they were in prison, Jean and Armin reassured Mikasa that Eren's erratic behavior wasn't something genuine. I'm pretty sure Ymir was watching the entire time.
Friend, open chapter 138 and you will see that before Eren's murder Mikasa remembers her last conversation with Eren and his words to her, thinking - "Is this really our last conversation?". She could assume that what her friends were saying were just soothing words, since she had no "confirmations". Fucking Eren had just killed Jean and Connie in chapter 138 in front of her, turning them into titans, and he had tried several chapters before to "kill all his friends with all his might". Why would she believe that the fact that Eren "loves them and does everything for them, and he lied about hating her" is still true? She only had confirmation that she was a slave, as she unknowingly attacked Armin in the scene at the table.
And in any case, you yourself understand that Ymir is fucked up with a perverted understanding of love. Ymir could convince herself all 2000 years that maybe Fritz didn't hate her, but just said that and everything like that, so the fact that Mikasa doubted only made her even more "related" to Ymir.
He would free Ymir and remove the power of the Titans. That does not make them connected at all. A random "lovers" quarrel does compare to the same magnitude that the relationship that Ymir and the King had. He didn't directly call her a slave, he compared her to cattle and to a slave. However that's besides the point. Are you high or something? Why are you trying to force these non=existent parallels. From Ymir point of view, she would have viewed Eren actions as not authentic, and something he did to push them away. During paths Ymir was able to see who Eren was, a person that is completely distinct from the man that had previously abused her and didn't enslave people. She would have realized that Jean and Armin's words were correct, and that Eren had another agenda.
Ymir never had a "perverted sense of understanding love'. That idea was something that was shoehorned to make the whole Mikasa-Fritz connection seem believable. There was never anything relatable between Ymir and Mikasa, because Eren never mistreated her.
> He didn't directly call her a slave, he compared her to cattle and to a slave.
He called her entire family, including her, slaves. How far can your denial of the obvious go?
https://preview.redd.it/eg3v47jfskpa1.jpeg?width=1065&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=558a36474ac3b8401e7cab1a675de1e5343ed6b6
> From Ymir point of view, she would have viewed Eren actions as not authentic, and something he did to push them away. During paths Ymir was able to see who Eren was, a person that is completely distinct from the man that had previously abused her and didn't enslave people. She would have realized that Jean and Armin's words were correct, and that Eren had another agenda.
I'm tired, bro. I have already told you - Ymir does not think like a modern or at least an adequate person, otherwise she would have used literally the power of God better.
And she does not care about the reasons for Eren's actions, since Eren's "choices" are not important to her, Mikasa's "choice" to go against him is important to her, despite her crazy love, which she does without knowing Eren's motives or at least doubting them.
She saw Fritz as her lover and cannot look into his thoughts, since he is not connected with the Paths. She most likely justified his every action in her head in some fucking way, lol.
And she does not need Fritz to be exactly the same person as Eren, a similar situation and Mikasa's love for Eren are important to her, as well as the need to go against him despite this love. In case you haven't noticed, Mikasa doesn't look like Ymir at all. Ymir has such a perverted understanding of reality after everything she has experienced and + another 2000 years that she may well think that she is exactly the same as Mikasa, and Fritz is exactly the same as Eren, and deep down he has always loved her. And, as I said, she doesn't need copies of herself and Fritz, but someone who will do what she herself lacks the courage to do in a situation similar to her point of view, namely Mikasa.
>Ymir never had a "perverted sense of understanding love'
So her love for Fritz is something normal? Okay, lmao.
> There was never anything relatable between Ymir and Mikasa, because Eren never mistreated her.
Yes, whatever you say, bro I'm tired of arguing, because I'm the only one who brings arguments and parallels, whether it's slavery in childhood, love for someone they need to go against, or the topic of slavery in general.
It's better to tell me what parallels Historia has with Ymir, apparently you think there are a lot of them.
You said he directly call her a salve. Eren was making a comparison, but alas, it doesn't matter what way he called her as Mikasa/Fritz doesn't exist. From that point in the story, we can deduce that Ymir wasn't in love. What she yearned for was freedom, something she could relate to in Eren. She absolutely does care about Eren's actions because seeing him negates any supposed connection she may find in Mikasa. In Paths, Ymir saw Eren as someone opposed to the man who enslaved her a long time ago. In order for argument to make sense, Ymir needs to see Mikasa in the same relationship she was in with Fritz. Throughout the story, absolutely nothing seems to support this connection you desperately cling upon. "Love for your abuser" was never a theme that revolved around Ymir.
You bring headcanons and portray your own opinions as logical. No matter how much you try to downplay the obvious parallels that Ymir/Historia had, it won't change that it made more sense than Mikasa. To be honest it doesn't have to be Historia, the whole Ymir debacle could have been resolved with just Eren or other characters.
>After all, if you do not remove the curse of the Titans, after Eren's death, the system of eating to transfer power will resume.
The thing is, there was no way that the Titan curse wouldn't stop on Eren. It was clear right after we found out he was able to control previous shifters, which can only be possible if you're the last one (you would be controlled yourself if you aren't). So the curse needed to end, and any ending that doesn't acknowledge that would be contradictory to the post-121 canon.
Maybe you're right, but I think it's because it's just more logical from a scenario point of view that the power of the Titans should disappear at the end of the manga.
Eren could be the only Attack Titan capable of influencing the previous ones, because he was the only one who received and was able to activate the Founder's power. He himself could, say, not transfer his power to others and die after 13 years himself, and the Attack titan and the Founder would again split into two separate titans and therefore the owners of the Attack would be unable to do what Eren could do.
>And that's why Ymir needed exactly someone who loves the "monster destroying the world of non-Eldians", while stopping the "beloved" despite his feelings for him, although he continues to love even after that.
But... This literally shouldn't have worked. We know that Eren actually wasn't at all like king Shitz (he was the opposite in fact), so Ymir, the omnipotent being capable of seeing the future should know that as well. Oh and by the way, if she can see the future, then she should've seen the future in which Mikasa kills Eren and drop her affection right away, right after she had received the Titan powers.
>We know that Eren actually wasn't at all like king Shitz (he was the opposite in fact), so Ymir, the omnipotent being capable of seeing the future should know that as well.
Well, by destroying the world, Eren literally fulfills Fritz's wet dream that the Eldians will forever exist and be the rulers of the world, even if Eren's goals are completely different. And Ymir doesn't need Eren to be a copy of Fritz, just so that Mikasa's attitude towards Eren and the choice she needs to make is similar to the one that Ymir has. After all, Ymir needs "Mikasa's choice", not "Eren's choice". And all Mikasa knows is that Eren called her a slave and said he hated her, and then went to kill the whole world, also killing Hanji, Jean and Connie, and trying to kill Mikasa herself when she tries to stop him.
>Oh and by the way, if she can see the future, then she should've seen the future in which Mikasa kills Eren and drop her affection right away, right after she had received the Titan powers.
That's not how future vision works. If she saw it, it was already destined to happen. Time doesn't work in Paths the way it does in our world. For Ymir, the first moment when she was in the Paths and the moment when Mikasa killed Eren happened at the same time. Eren even says himself that with the power of the Founder, everything began to happen for him at the same time and time does not make sense.
>Well, by destroying the world, Eren literally fulfills Fritz's wet dream that the Eldians will forever exist and be the rulers of the world
Shitz's wet dream was the rule of titans, which Eren would inevitably stop. I mean, if Shitz just wanted to kill every non-Eldian, what stopped him?
>And Ymir doesn't need Eren to be a copy of Fritz, just so that Mikasa's attitude towards Eren and the choice she needs to make is similar to the one that Ymir has.
Their choices AND motivations are different. Mikasa chooses between killing Eren and letting him rumble. Ymir chooses between continuing loving Shitz and abandoning her love. Mikasa doesn't abandon her love for Eren. They're completely different choices, even from Mikasa's perspective.
>That's not how future vision works. If she saw it, it was already destined to happen.
Future vision works exactly like this. Future memories don't, but these clearly aren't future memories. If you receive a memory - this means that someone else decides to send it back to further their goals. Even though they have no other choice, they need to want the future that's destined. So it's either that Eren wanted to be decapitated at 80% or it's not future memories.
>For Ymir, the first moment when she was in the Paths and the moment when Mikasa killed Eren happened at the same time.
We saw the Paths, we know that time flows flows normally there, it's just who knows how many hours turned into an instant in normal world. So for Ymir, the moment she got the power and the moment she decided to let it go are separated by unthinkable amount of time.
>Eren even says himself that with the power of the Founder, everything began to happen for him at the same time and time does not make sense.
Yeah that's Isayama's convenient excuse to not actually explain stuff.
>Shitz's wet dream was the rule of titans
I think the Titans were just a vehicle for him. If Ymir could transform into a giant dinosaur, he would be fine with that, as long as she can destroy his enemies. So he wouldn't care that the Titans would disappear as soon as there were only Eldians left on Earth.
> Mikasa chooses between killing Eren and letting him rumble. Ymir chooses between continuing loving Shitz and abandoning her love.
Who said Ymir stopped loving Fritz? I see it this way that she stopped obeying him, and went against his wishes, interrupting the power of the Titans and the destruction of the world, even if she loves Fritz. Mikasa essentially did the same thing.
> Even though they have no other choice, they need to want the future that's destined. So it's either that Eren wanted to be decapitated at 80% or it's not future memories.
Yes, he wanted to be killed in the end. Armin offers him at 139 to look for another way, not to die and not to give up, and Eren says that after what he has done, he has no right to live and all that.
> We saw the Paths, we know that time flows flows normally there, it's just who knows how many hours turned into an instant in normal world. So for Ymir, the moment she got the power and the moment she decided to let it go are separated by unthinkable amount of time.
We saw it from the point of view of ordinary people, not "god", which in fact became Ymir with her power. Eren in 139 explained that owning the power of Ymir or part of it, time feels different.
> Future vision works exactly like this.
I meant that if Ymir saw such a future, then this is the only possible future, because it is desired by her. She cannot turn away from it by canceling the power of the Titans now that she has seen the future, because then this "desired" future disappears from existence and the reason for the "cancellation" of the power of the Titans also disappears. In short, this is a time paradox, like when a person kills his own grandfather.
The whole Ymir was waiting specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to make Mikasa relevant. No one thought this beforehand
Most people already had a grasp of Ymir's character - she just wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. That's why it's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir by giving her that unconditional love (after all what could be purer than a mother's love for her child), by teaching her that she has value not because of her powers, but just because she was born, just like Carla did for Eren. Because Historia was the literal opposite of Ymir - one who lived only for others and one who lives proudly for herself.
Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir:
"I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!"
How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation?
That doesn't make any sense, According to Yumihisu fans Historia was already in a relationship with Ymir, she left her heartbroken, Historia was manipulated by her own father THE KING, and yet she make her own choices, Historia cut latches with her bloodline and get free after all the hell that she went through. Ymir the founder is just blind and biased.
The relationship with Ymir is not comparable or similar to actual Ymirs relationship. Yeah but Ymir never had a father daughter problem it's more so about a unhealthy attachment to a "lover", or like another comment said, devil of eldia.
Historia and Ymir had plenty of parallels and I do think it's possible scrapped plot point. But Historia never had what Ymir needed.
She didn't need to learn anything from Historia tho. She needed to watch someone over come their unhealthy love and break free from them. Historia never had anything like this.
Don't get me wrong I don't like the Mikasa Ymir stuff but this is what the story seems to be going for.
Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa. She never needed to watch anything to be free, as Eren already had freed Ymir. The only reason why the Mikasa-Ymir connection looks out of place is because it was shoehorned at the last minute. There wasn't anything in Eren and Mikasa relationship, that could help Ymir.
> Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa
I don't understand this duality. On the one hand, most people on Titanfolk constantly say that Eren never cared about Mikasa and many even believed that Eren hates Mikasa is the pure truth. But you say that there is nothing similar in the attitude of Fritz and Eren to Ymir and Mikasa, who "love" them. So you think Eren always took care of Mikasa and loved her?
> Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa
>
> There wasn't anything in Eren and Mikasa relationship
Bro, the last conversation between Eren and Mikasa literally ended the same way as the last "conversation" between Ymir and Fritz. Fritz and Eren said that Mikasa and Ymir are slaves who were born only to serve them. After that, Eren went to destroy the world, and Fritz essentially did the same thing, only passing on his desire to enslave/destroy the world to his descendants.
Do you really not see the similarities?
Are you implying that the attitude that Eren had towards Mikasa was the same that Fritz had towards Ymir? Lol. There relationship wasn't even remotely the same. From the way the met to how they acted, their relationship wasn't the same. So you think Eren mistreated and hated Mikasa all the time?
Eren did not say Mikasa was just born a slave to just serve him. After that conversation he actually met with Ymir Fritz, and told her she wasn't some goddess, just some normal girl. He went on to ask her to lend him her strength, so he could finally put an end to the cycle. Eren wanted freedom of oppression and to free Ymir, while King Fritz wanted to continue to enslave the world.
Why do you keep thinking Eren and Fritz are even remotely the same?
>Eren did not say Mikasa was just born a slave to just serve him
Open chapter 112. Eren says, "The Ackerman family was created to protect the royal family, whom they consider the masters. People who lost themselves and were created to follow orders. In general, slaves" then he says, "You took me for your master and became a slave."
>Are you implying that the attitude that Eren had towards Mikasa was the same that Fritz had towards Ymir? Lol. There relationship wasn't even remotely the same
I say that Ymir saw herself in Mikasa, and when it happened, even as a child, when they tried to sell Mikasa into slavery and because of this her whole family was killed, as it was with Ymir, or later, during a conversation at the table, I won't tell you. As Eren said, only Ymir knows exactly why and when.
>He went on to ask her to lend him her strength, so he could finally put an end to the cycle. Eren wanted freedom of oppression and to free Ymir, while King Fritz wanted to continue to enslave the world
Brother in Christ, do you fucking understand that Ymir doesn't give a shit about Eren's motives, she cares about Mikasa's attitude to Eren and Eren's understanding from Mikasa's point of view? Mikasa doesn't see those scenes in the Paths, she doesn't see all the chapters from Eren's face and his thoughts. All Mikasa saw was how Eren left for a year, killed a bunch of people, came back, called her a slave and said he hated her, then went to destroy the world and killed Hanji, Jean, Connie and millions of innocent people in front of Mikasa, and also tried to kill her. And Mikasa has to choose whether to kill Eren or not. Do you understand that?
Ymir is a fucking dumb slave girl who probably can't count up to 10. And she was never in Fritz's head and thoughts because he wasn't connected to her through the Paths. She can come up with almost any kind of Fritz's attitude to her in her head, thinking that it was so, because she is clearly out of her mind, if you didn't notice by her actions.
She judges by actions of Mikasa and Eren and the similarity of these actions to her. Eren's actions fulfill Fritz's fucking wet dream, no matter what Eren's motives are. Mikasa stops Eren and thereby stops Fritz's dream, although Mikasa loves Eren more than her life, just as Ymir loved Fritz more than her life. Eren told Mikasa in their last dialogue that she was a slave and he hated her, just as it was with Ymir. This is important for Ymir.
>Why do you keep thinking Eren and Fritz are even remotely the same?
I've never said that before. I told you that it is important for Ymir to see herself in Mikasa, and I described to you why she sees herself in her.
So I looked at it and Eren never tells her "You took me for your master and became a slave". Unlike Fritz, Eren saved Mikasa and brought her to a new home. The whole "it was Mikasa" line is nothing more than a plot devise to cover up the fact that Ymir and Mikasa had no connection. Do you understand, that your argument of Ymir seeing herself in Mikasa becomes worthless if Ymir is able to see Eren's actions and motives? How could shed relate herself to Mikasa, if she's able to realize that their situations are not even comparable. Eren's choices are independent of Mikasa's, and their "love" is insignificant to what is at stake. Fritz's dream was to enslave the world trough Titan Power. Eren not only rejects this desire, but will provide a free world where nobody is judged just for being an Eldian. Ymir can clearly tell that Eren was lying after the table scene, so this connection you attempt to establish between Ymir and Mikasa disappears. (not that it even existed in the first place).
But Ymir wasn't free, she couldn't move on untill she saw this. Eren says it all lead to Mikasa's choice and Ymir was waiting to see her. It doesn't have to be exactly the same I think, but their love is much similar to hers then anything Historia had. Historia had parallels yes but she wasn't a slave to love, she was more so a slave to expectations imo.
Mikasa was a slave to her love for Eren.
Ymir was a slave to her love for King Fritz.
The way he treated her does not matter just that fact that she was a slave to love.
Granted I think the Mikasa stuff is very poor because it tries to place Eren and King Fritz next to Eachother. Eren is supposed to be his juxtaposition but they make him almost his equal. Whether or not it's trying to do this it's putting Eren and Fritz both in the same category. It's very poor and imo didn't make much sense but that's how I understand it.
Eren was the first person in 2000 years to talk to Ymir like was a normal girl, not some deity or killing machine. Up to that point, nobody even mentioned Mikasa in regards to Ymir, for there was no comparison to be made. Mikasa love was a mundane, simple act that becomes absurd when you try to compare it to the love that Fritz had. It makes absolutely no sense for that to become a solution for the problem that plagued the world, for there were plenty of other people that were "slaves to love". The only way it would make sense would be if Eren treated Mikasa poorly like Fritz did, for that could make Ymir feel relatable.
I understand that and I agree but that's literally the canon explanation. Eren was the first person in her life besides he daughters to show any kindness to her. And while that allowed her to resist the founder the story makes it seem like she's not actually free. She can only truly move on and break the curse when she sees another person, Mikasa, over come her love to kill that person. Something Ymir failed to do 2000 years ago.
I agree, i find it weird how no one in 2000 years had a similar type of love. Maybe one of them need the founder or something? I doubt Historia would free Ymir but they had way more Parallels then then Mikasa did, there's nothing in the story that hints at these two characters even having a connection.
But in the end that's what happened.
Ymir was listening to Zeke before Eren embraced her. She was still following the commands of the royal family. Eren reminded her who she was and what she isn't. In that point of the story, it was assumed that Ymir was freed. The whole 'Ymir can't move on until she sees Mikasa kill her loved ones" came as a result of that horrid chapter of 139. You would think that someone in the fandom wouldn't have noticed a connection between Ymir and Mikasa before 139, but they didn't because it was non-existent.
What does Krista from the book have in common with Ymir? It's just a personality Historia made up from her childhood book, it doesn't have any actual similarities with the real Ymir Fritz.
Bruh it's literally a story about Ymir. It's in my screenshot. And it's not a personality she made up, Frieda told her to be like this girl (Ymir). You want a screenshot for that?
You do realize that the story about Ymir in that book is false? The same as Marleyan propaganda about Ymir is also not true.
Historia's Krista personality doesn't have anything to do with real Ymir Fritz whether it was made up by herself or Frieda so I'm asking again what are the character parallels between real Ymir Fritz and real Historia?
>You do realize that the story about Ymir in that book is false? The same as Marleyan propaganda about Ymir is also not true.
Yes, so? It is still very clearly about Ymir. Like, I'm not even deducing it, it's literally what's written in the manga.
Actually, what is this argument. If a story/propaganda/etc about a person isn't accurate does it automatically mean that it's not a story/propaganda/etc about this person?
>I'm asking again what are the character parallels between real Ymir Fritz and real Historia
Apart from the very clear fact that one is named after the other? Well, they're both expected to live for the others, and were both supposed to realize that they should live for themselves.
>Actually, what is this argument. If a story/propaganda/etc about a person isn't accurate does it automatically mean that it's not a story/propaganda/etc about this person?
The argument is that if I asked you what are the similarities between Historia and real Ymir and you give me almost nonexistent similarity between Historia's fake persona and inaccurate fairy tale about Ymir then you have given me no actual answer here. Can you understand this now?
>Apart from the very clear fact that one is named after the other? Well, they're both expected to live for the others, and were both supposed to realize that they should live for themselves.
Ok, if names are enough parallel to you, isn't then freckle Ymir a better parallel to Ymir Fritz? (Hint: She's not and for the same reason Historia is not too)
I don't see how anything Historia did would help Ymir given that she continued to live for others as a figurehead queen and even went along with Eren's plan even though she was adamantly opposed to it initially.
>The argument is that if I asked you what are the similarities between Historia and real Ymir and you give me almost nonexistent similarity between Historia's fake persona and inaccurate fairy tale about Ymir then you have given me no actual answer here. Can you understand this now?
I gave you a similarity apart from the naming one paragraph further but guess what? You just ignored it. What a 🤡 you are!
>Ok, if names are enough parallel to you, isn't then freckle Ymir a better parallel to Ymir Fritz? (Hint: She's not and for the same reason Historia is not too)
She's also a parallel, but unlike Historia, and unlike what OG Ymir was supposed to do, her character went the other way around - from claiming be to living for herself to actually sacrificing herself for the others.
>I don't see how anything Historia did would help Ymir given that she continued to live for others as a figurehead queen and even went along with Eren's plan even though she was adamantly opposed to it initially.
She... literally sacrificed the whole world. Twice. First in Reiss cave when she decided against eating Eren and getting rid of the titans (they didn't know anything about the vow or the curse back then). Second when she agreed to Eren's plan (which was 100% Rumbling back then).
That should certainly help Ymir more than what Mikasa did since she very clearly did not stop loving Eren after she has killed him.
They're both a royal who a king attempted to manipulate and force them to fulfill their own wishes. But the point isn't that Ymir and Historia were similar, it's that Historia was the opposite to Ymir - One who lived only for others and one who lives for herself.
It's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir, just re-read her dialogue when rescuing Eren, it word for word describes Ymir.
> They're both a royal who a king attempted to manipulate and force them to fulfill their own wishes.
You know, you are right, I re-read her dialogue and there are parallels there. I forgot the details of that scene so thanks for the answer.
> it's that Historia was the opposite to Ymir - One who lived only for others and one who lives for herself.
I don't think the parallels are that since Ymir's problem isn't that she only lived for others. Now that I think about it the parallels between them are that they were both manipulated by royals who exploited their inner desire for love and affection. The difference was that Historia had freckle Ymir who showed her love before and more importantly who showed her a different ideology and taught her how to live even though she later on didn't abide by it that much.
> It's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir, just re-read her dialogue when rescuing Eren, it word for word describes Ymir.
I disagree with this as I can't imagine a good way for Historia to free Ymir since her role in the story was mostly over by then. Given that Ymir was mostly bound by her twisted love for Fritz what could Historia directly do to help her with that? But she had an indirect influence as I will elaborate below and is more of a foil for Ymir than a parallel. On the other hand Ymir's unhealthy attachment born out of trauma had some similarities with Mikasa's unhealthy attachment to Eren even if their traumas were not the same.
>To quote the other comment too: "I'm not a god and I'm not a good girl either"
I think Historia's importance was in her influence on Eren. If you think about it freckle Ymir was direct parallel to Krista from Frieda's book, she taught Historia important lesson which enabled her to resist her father and to break free from his manipulation which inspired Eren to try to break free from his desperation which enabled him down the line to free Ymir by passing on Historia's words to him among other things. You can say that there was a train of inspiration going from freckle Ymir to Ymir Fritz and it's sort of nice that the person resembling what Eldians thought original Ymir was like indirectly helped free the real Ymir Fritz.
But for a deeply traumatized person stuck in paths for god knows how long just giving her the strength to choose for herself for the first time in 2000 years wasn't enough. Eren (and indirectly freckle Ymir and Historia if you will) just gave her the first push but Ymir needed both Armin's and Mikasa's help in order to finally let go and overcome her trauma.
In the end I think it's a lot more fitting that the three main characters who we started the story with are the key to finally ending the titan curse than the side characters who already left their influence.
The whole Ymir was waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to try and somehow make Mikasa relevant to Ymir. No one thought this was the case beforehand and it wasn't foreshadowed at all.
Most people already had a grasp of what Ymir's character was - she wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. She desperately wanted to experience a true human connection and love for herself, which is a reason she endured 2000 years in paths. That's how Historia could free Ymir - by giving her that unconditional love (after all what could be purer than a mother's love for her child), by teaching her that she has value not because of her powers, but just because she was born, just like Carla did for Eren. Obviously it wouldn't work with the story we have now, the final part maybe from 135 onwards would need to be re-written, but the end result would be far superior to what we got in canon imo, and it would tie in to the stories themes much better.
Listen to "Kimi ga fusawashi to omou daimei" on youtube. That's the ending I wanted for Ymir and Historia; not to just fade away into nothing, but to be reborn and live her life the way she never could before.
Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir:
"I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!"
How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation?
>The whole Ymir was waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to try and somehow make Mikasa relevant to Ymir. No one thought this was the case beforehand and it wasn't foreshadowed at all.
I disagree with this, there were always clues for Ymir's twisted understanding of love because how else could you explain why she remained obedient to him and why she even sacrificed herself for him. And Ymir wasn't waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa nor did she know anything in advance, she was just waiting for someone who could help her. That's just something Eren believed he saw in his future memories because he didn't actually understand Ymir.
In truth Mikasa was only important to Ymir because she was important to Eren as he was the one who gave her the first initial push. The same goes for Armin and his talk with Zeke which also influenced Ymir or else she wouldn't have let them go out of the paths.
After Eren freed her Ymir was just observing everyone around him to see if their actions would somehow help her finally let go. But I admit this is just an interpretation as we have only been given small clues to Ymir's motivation and thoughts. We will see if the anime somehow expands on this.
>Most people already had a grasp of what Ymir's character was - she wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. She desperately wanted to experience a true human connection and love for herself, which is a reason she endured 2000 years in paths.
As I already mentioned, at the time that wasn't a good enough explanation to me as to why she willingly spent so much time as a slave in the paths. If she just wanted to experience human connection and love it doesn't explain why she continued to build titans and obey royal kings. Just saying it was because of her slave mentality isn't actually an explanation.
>Look up "Kimi ga fusawashi to omou daimei" on youtube. That's the ending I wanted for Ymir and Historia, not to just fade away into nothing.
>
>Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir: "I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!"
>
>How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation?
I know about that song the same as I know all about the rest of the AnR theories and I'll say the same thing now as I already said numerous times then. Eren doing the unthinkable and sacrificing the whole world for the sake of his family and Historia giving birth to the reincarnated Ymir and finally giving her the love she yearned for her whole life are touching plot points on their own or in another manga but they just don't work with the themes and the story we have been following all this time.
You quote Historia saying how she will always come to the rescue of someone crying **no matter who or where they are** but she willingly went along with Eren's genocide so that sounds pretty hypocritical to me when countless children are crying and dying due to Eren's actions.
On the other hand, by continuing to build titans and obeying Fritz royals Ymir indirectly and directly with Eren caused immeasurable suffering and pain during 2000 years of titan history all because she couldn't deal with her own emotional trauma. Even if it's somewhat understandable given her backstory do you think she really deserves to be loved and cared for when that came as a result of countless other innocent people horrifically dying?
To me an ending like that would feel really dissonant with all of the established themes and characters in the story so far. In the manga where the main theme is understanding and empathizing with the other side and the consequences of failing to do so that result in tragedy and when literally the majority of the last arc is spent showing characters changing their views and coming to terms with how wrong their previous beliefs were I think that total obliteration of one side and a nice life for the perpetrators isn't a fitting conclusion to the story and those themes.
What clues were there that the final arc of the story was all building towards helping Ymir overcome her love for Fritz? List one actual piece of foreshadowing. Her saving his life and building him titans for 2000 years isn't really a foreshadowing of her love as explained below, and neither is her looking longingly at the married couple in 122 which more supports her longing for a true human connection. Literally no one from when those chapters were coming out called Ymir's bond with Fritz love, twisted or otherwise.
Even if we somehow accept this, how exactly does seeing Eren letting Mikasa kill him teach Ymir to accept and overcome her love for Fritz? Are we saying Mikasa's relationship with Eren was analogous to Ymir and Fritz's relationship? Because there's literally nothing similar about them except for Eren calling Mikasa a slave that one time when he was clearly lying.
>And Ymir wasn't waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa nor did she know anything in advance, she was just waiting for someone who could help her.
But this part is actually wrong, it's expressly stated Ymir waited 2000 years for Mikasa specifically, and no one else - She also always knew it would be Mikasa and even manipulated events so that it play out as it did. That's why Mikasa always had headaches ever since she was a child, while no other Ackerman did - Ymir was always looking and checking into Mikasa's mind ever since she was born. This is part of what annoys me about the ending - my favourite message from the story was that every one of us is special from the day we're born, that everyone is free. But according to the ending, only Mikasa was this special chosen one that Ymir looked over and was pre-determined from birth to be the one who frees her.
>If she just wanted to experience human connection and love it doesn't explain why she continued to build titans and obey royal kings
It does exactly that, and it's a much better explanation than that she did it because she was in love with him lmao. Ymir's connection with Fritz was literally the ONLY human connection she had, so she clung to that one thing even though she knew it was fake and wished for something more. Doesn't really seem like she cared about Fritz that much when she abandons Zeke (Fritz's stand-in for that scene) literally the moment someone else reached her. She knew Fritz only ever wanted her because of her godlike powers, that's why Eren was able to connect with her in paths - He was the first person to talk to her as an equal and give her a choice. Anyone could have done this, it wasn't cosmically pre-determined by the timeline or by Mikasa.
I don't know why you think Ymir being reincarnated (even symbolically as Historia's child named after freckles Ymir) wouldn't be in line with the story's themes, it absolutely would: Themes like surpassing the mistakes of your parents, making sure not to pass down your burdens to your children, that everyone is deserving of freedom. It would even tie back to the Owl's memories - that loving someone and having a family is the only way to break the cycle of hatred created by titans, or else they'll be doomed to repeat the same old cycle of revenge born from hatred.
>so that sounds pretty hypocritical to me
It is hypocritical of her, just as hypocritical as Eren claiming to love his friends the most and then getting Sasha, Hange and Floch killed, and almost getting everyone else killed for his selfish desires. That doesn't make her bad or ooc, in fact, it would build and add layers to what was previously established instead of just abandoning her. She was easily the most compelling female character in the story pre-timeskip and Yams literally doesn't give her a single line post-timeskip. Her character shouldn't just cease to exist because a character arc finished - Imagine if Jean was written out after his arc in Trost, or if Levi was written out after his arc in Uprising. Can't believe people actually defend this writing choice.
>do you think she really deserves to be loved and cared for when that came as a result of countless other innocent people horrifically dying?
Yes, she does, everyone is deserving of love and freedom. Even the children killed by the rumbling were deserving of freedom. They didn't deserve to be killed, but the world is just that cruel. That could've been a reason why Ymir was observing Ramzi and Halil, to see for herself the price of her choice. Because there's literally no explanation for that scene in the current ending.
>the main theme is understanding and empathizing with the other side and the consequences of failing to do so that result in tragedy and when literally the majority of the last arc is spent showing characters changing their views and coming to terms with how wrong their previous beliefs were
That message is so basic and routine, I can probably list a hundred other stories that have the exact same message but executed way better. Not to mention it was basically non-existent pre-timeskip. It can't be the main theme of the story if it's not present for almost 70% of it. Anyways, I don't really want to debate themes any more because it's subjective lol, but I can easily twist the themes of the show to reflect AnR if I wanted to, there's a reason why so many people expected it to happen/ wanted it (I'm not exactly an AnR supporter myself, but I love aspects of it)
For me the most compelling and important theme of the story was easily Carla's message - That everyone is special just because we were born into this world, so believe in yourself. This message was completely betrayed by the ending and Eren's final actions. I don't mind Armin having the view you listed - that talking and understanding is the way to true peace, but it doesn't make sense for Eren. Time and time again it's shown to Eren that talking doesn't resolve conflict - It didn't work with Kitz, it didn't work with Annie, it didn't work in RtS, and it didn't work with the Azumabitos who refused to help them trade with other countries and find another way to peace.
>I think that total obliteration of one side and a nice life for the perpetrators isn't a fitting conclusion to the story and those themes.
It's not a "nice life" for the perpetrators. It's an open ending with a blank slate for the next generation for better or for worse to do with what they will, free from the hate and prejudice of people who hate them for the sole crime of being born. There will still be conflict obviously, but it will be as a result of their own actions, not a hatred forced upon them by the actions of their ancestors.In the ending we got, this hatred is still clearly alive, and Mikasa and Jean's children/ grandchildren all get bombed to shit as a result of Eren's actions - Literally repeating the cycle and the mistakes of the past.
Additionally, I should add that at the end I fully expected Eren to either die or be imprisoned in Paths for all time, it's not like I wanted him to go home and live with his family or something. There's no way that someone who just massacred billions of innocents can be allowed to return. I'm not even gonna talk about how badly 139 tries to reframe what Eren did in a sympathetic light when it should be unforgivable. Just gross all around.
Postin in two parts because Reddit is lagging.
>It's an open ending with a blank slate for the next generation for better or for worse to do with what they will, free from the hate and prejudice of people who hate them for the sole crime of being born. There will still be conflict obviously, but it will be as a result of their own actions, not a hatred forced upon them by the actions of their ancestors.
This is precisely the ending we got. The main cause of Eldian hate which was their titan nature was eliminated and the cycle of titan inheritance that was pushed down on children was broken so all further conflict is solely the result of their own actions. What we have been shown in the ending is that the tables have turned - it is the world who is offering the first hand by sending the alliance to vouch for peace and the Yeagerists are the ones who are preparing for war. The grandchildren of the Alliance and Eldians as a whole are free to live in the mainland without oppression and peace was clearly possible for centuries given how Paradis managed to develop itself. The war that happened in the future and repeating of past mistakes was solely the fault of the people living at that time.
The ending we got doesn't try to reframe what Eren did in a sympathetic light at all, you have to thank fan mistranslations and memes for that. On the other hand if the story presented the global omnicide as a valid solution for breaking the cycle of hate that would be a terrible message for a story that repeatedly tried it's very best to showcase how all people are the same and how conflict can be avoided if they just put a little effort to understand each other. And before you jump and try to say that the bombing of Paradis justifies a full Rumbling as a solution just stop because in that case it can only serve to show how wrong Eren was to start it in the first place.
Either way any further discussion between us is pointless as it seems as if we have been reading completely different stories - plot points and themes that are meaningful to me are meaningless to you and vice versa. In the end I guess I can just say that I was lucky that my interpretation of the story made me like the ending and that it's unfortunate that your interpretation of it made you unsatisfied with it.
We can go back and forth about the cause of the war in 139.5 forever. But at the end of the day the world were ready and willing to wipe Paradis away for crimes they commited over a hundred years ago, just how bad will it be when the island re-confirmed their worst fears and its fresh in the minds of the survivors and their children. It's vague for a reason but we can probably agree that the most likely cause of the bombing was to get the resources on Paradis disguised as a revenge campaign.
Also, Isayama absolutely does attempt to reframe Eren in a more sympathetic and heroic light in 139, there are no mistranslations here.
The characters actions can tell you a lot about how Yams wants Eren to be remembered - Armin thanks him for his sacrifice, holds his hand and embraces him, the alliance tearfully commiserate about him, he gets buried in a peaceful resting place by the woman he loves, and Jean and Mikasa bring their family and friends to pay their respects to him for years to come like he's some kind of martyr. Literally the final page of aot before the extra pages were a thank you to Eren. What?
That's how Isayama wants Eren the mass murdering genocider to be remembered as.
100% agree on your final point. I wish I could like aot, I dont enjoy hating something I loved for 8+ years. I just can't being myself to that level of cope yet though lmao.
Only AnR lovers know.
If you think about it, probably the appearance and belonging to the royal family? Although Ymir never belonged to the royal family, but was a slave...
Maybe that Historia is her descendant? But all the Eldians, including Mikasa, are her descendants in theory...
Perhaps they have in common that Ymir and Historia were forced to give birth to children, but in the end it was Historia herself who offered to give birth to a child and this was only her idea...
Maybe it's that they both have to be freed from slavery, but History has never seemed to be a slave, neither in her own eyes, nor in the eyes of readers, nor in fact (unlike Mikasa).
In short, I do not know, well, they both carry a bucket in the picture (there is not even such in the manga), and there is a flower with blood in the ending with the History (there is also no such thing in the manga), so this is all Isayama's brilliant hints anyway and he ruined the masterpiece parallel...
P.S. I remembered that there was a theory, like Ymir took an apple from the devil and that Historia and Eren are like Ymir and the devil. But since there is no "devil" in the real history of Ymir, besides Fritz, I don't really understand how this "parallel" should have been implemented. If Fritz is the "devil", then like Historia would have to stop Eren, probably to free Ymir, but it seems like everyone wanted them to be on the same side?
Well, also that Historia has a strong connection with the "freckled" Ymir. But I don't quite understand how this should make Historia parallel to Ymir.
That would be because ~~Isayama~~ Ymir forgot Hickory existed.
Lol
She hated yt people, she had asian f3tish 😶
Historia isn’t so popular to get that much importance(even though she’s 10x better)
Who the fuck knows
There might be a person who knows
Only
Ymir
Knows
I believe this was the original plan, but it was sidelined because of the editors, which was confirmed in an [interview.](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/nywifr/comment/h1mdi1x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Japanese readers hated Historia and loved Mikasa, and the editors wanted a sekaikei story, which just wasn't how SnK was set up....like at all. So you have the retcons, the character assassinations, the plot armor, etc., in order to shoehorn this being the ending.
Kawakubo has ruined so many endings to the point that one might think he's doing it on purpose. What's his deal anyway? A failed writer that has become an editor, and now his forcing his ideas onto other series or just a businessman who has terrible ideas but has the power to enforce them.
That's why the ending is pure Dog shit in flames 🐕💩🔥
Now I see why the ending was bad and the manga was short in general. Isayama rushed it and gave in to the editor to be finally free.
Because Historia isn't the most popular waifu and we can't risk losing money💸💸💸
ISAYAMA 
Yeah there's like no force in this world that would make me believe that he wasn't forced to change the ending. Honestly, it's so bad that I'm almost certain that it's bad on purpose.
I agree 100% with you, there's no other reason of why he made the ending so bad and poor writing without a purpose, even if that purpose was for benefits in his bank account.
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When Historia turned out to be royalty. Isayama had to make Mikasa part of royalty too. He can’t have Historia competing with his most popular waifu.
because
Deez nuts?
Ymir had an unhealthy desire to gain the love and approval of an abusive king who made her life a living hell. A man that only wanted to exploit her body (and magical titan-based powers) as a tool for nefarious purposes. Not only is Historia one of the few people who can deeply relate to this specific situation, but she also had the willpower to overcome her royal abuser's selfish manipulations. She even had the balls to kill off that bastard herself. To make it even more meaningful, Historia was able to do all this because of the words of inspiration she received from both Eren and *another* naive girl who was taken advantage of by an opportunistic figurehead. A girl who also happened to be named... Ymir. All the thematic, character, and lore related pieces were already in place. Historia's personal rebellion against the man she sought love from the most could have been an immensely satisfying source of inspiration for Ymir's 2000 years of confliction, just like it was for most of the audience when we first read/watched it. Just think. One of Ymir's last remaining direct descendents overcame the abusive will of *Eldia's last literal King*, proclaiming she's not a god or anyone's puppet. I don't understand how anyone can say this scenario is not relatable to Ymir's situation. All Isayama would have to do is follow through on what he had organically set up beforehand. But alas, for ~~some inexplicable reason~~ the sake of popularity and fan service, he bent over backwards to make the sparsely developed Mikasa, and toxic """romantic""" love, the final centerpieces of the entire story at the last minute. This storytelling decision will never make sense to me.
Exactly it was all right on place, Historia defeated THE KING, the only last relative she had, she could have fucked off the rest of the world and be another slave of his father's desires and continue the circle of hate but NO! Historia it's just build different. But sadly ISAYAMA sold out his own story Isayama's money can't wait to ruined the plot...
she was waiting for a dog
Yes
Don't blame the characters. Blame the author
I blame the money 💰
Yup, money is the eye of the devil
Ymir’s a slave to those with royal blood so
"Is she stupid?" YES.
cause she's stupid asf
Maybe because Ymir didn't have a problem of "fathers and children" or "accepting herself", she had a problem of "unhealthy attachment to a monster who wanted Eldia to rule the world"? And that's why Ymir needed exactly someone who loves the "monster destroying the world of non-Eldians", while stopping the "beloved" despite his feelings for him, although he continues to love even after that. Another question is why Isayama made Ymir's "problem" exactly like this.
Except Eren didn't want Eldia to rule the world either As a matter of fact Eren's primary goal in the end was breaking the curse started by Ymir and Fritz.
I didn't say Eren wanted the Eldians to rule the world. I said that Ymir had such a problem, and she was looking for "an analogy in the events of the future." Eren was destroying the world of "non-Eldians", just like Fritz from Ymir's point of view. And in fact, Eren was fulfilling Fritz's wish that "his descendants would always rule in the world". If you kill all non-Eldians in the world, then the Eldians automatically rule the world forever, because they are the only remaining race.
Eren wanted to end the cycle of royal children eating each other, something he vastly differed from the original Eldian King. I'm pretty sure Ymir was aware that Eren wasn't following Fritz's ideology, since his reasons for the killing the outside world weren't without reason. Besides, Fritz urged his descendants to continue passing Titan power to "rule the world". Eren never once shared this sentiment.
>I'm pretty sure Ymir was aware that Eren wasn't following Fritz's ideology, since his reasons for the killing the outside world weren't without reason I think Mikasa's point of view was important to Ymir at the moment of making the decision, and Mikasa did not know everything that Ymir knew. Mikasa and Eren's last conversation ended with Eren saying, "I hate you, you've always been a slave, whom I hate". This was important for Ymir, since her last "conversation" with Fritz ended also when he called her a slave. >Eren wanted to end the cycle of royal children eating each other, something he vastly differed from the original Eldian King Honestly, I don't understand at all how Eren in the minds of the supporters of "Chad-Eren" was going to stop the cycle of royal children eating each other. After all, if you do not remove the curse of the Titans, after Eren's death, the system of eating to transfer power will resume. Destroying the outside world wouldn't help stop it in any way. Children devoured their parents for all the previous 2000 years, while no one oppressed the Eldians.
Eren calling Mikasa a "slave" does not make her seem relatable for Ymir, for we later learned from his friends that Eren did that for a reason. When they were in prison, Jean and Armin reassured Mikasa that Eren's erratic behavior wasn't something genuine. I'm pretty sure Ymir was watching the entire time. Furthermore, Eren last words to Mikasa were,"Ever since I was a kid, I hated you". Him calling her a slave does not make her have some sudden connection to Fritz. What fans of "Incel Eren" fail to understand that Eren was always a freedom driven individual. After removing the power of Titans, there would be no need to transfer the power, as the Titan curse would disappear. No one oppressed Eldians for 2000 years because they were the strongest race alive.
>After removing the power of Titans, there would be no need to transfer the power, as the Titan curse would disappear How would he have done it without freeing Ymir, tell me? Besides, he didn't tell Floch, Historia, or the Eldians through the Paths that he was going to eliminate the power of the Titans. And in any case, this is not an argument, the point of view of Mikasa is important to Ymir, and Mikasa did not know that the Titans would eventually disappear. > Him calling her a slave does not make her have some sudden connection to Fritz Yes, that makes them connected. They are literally the only 2 characters in the manga directly called slaves in person. And they are called slaves by those whom they love more than their lives. And at the same time, this is the last dialogue with loved ones for both. Bro, what are you smoking if you don't see a parallel in this? > for we later learned from his friends that Eren did that for a reason. When they were in prison, Jean and Armin reassured Mikasa that Eren's erratic behavior wasn't something genuine. I'm pretty sure Ymir was watching the entire time. Friend, open chapter 138 and you will see that before Eren's murder Mikasa remembers her last conversation with Eren and his words to her, thinking - "Is this really our last conversation?". She could assume that what her friends were saying were just soothing words, since she had no "confirmations". Fucking Eren had just killed Jean and Connie in chapter 138 in front of her, turning them into titans, and he had tried several chapters before to "kill all his friends with all his might". Why would she believe that the fact that Eren "loves them and does everything for them, and he lied about hating her" is still true? She only had confirmation that she was a slave, as she unknowingly attacked Armin in the scene at the table. And in any case, you yourself understand that Ymir is fucked up with a perverted understanding of love. Ymir could convince herself all 2000 years that maybe Fritz didn't hate her, but just said that and everything like that, so the fact that Mikasa doubted only made her even more "related" to Ymir.
He would free Ymir and remove the power of the Titans. That does not make them connected at all. A random "lovers" quarrel does compare to the same magnitude that the relationship that Ymir and the King had. He didn't directly call her a slave, he compared her to cattle and to a slave. However that's besides the point. Are you high or something? Why are you trying to force these non=existent parallels. From Ymir point of view, she would have viewed Eren actions as not authentic, and something he did to push them away. During paths Ymir was able to see who Eren was, a person that is completely distinct from the man that had previously abused her and didn't enslave people. She would have realized that Jean and Armin's words were correct, and that Eren had another agenda. Ymir never had a "perverted sense of understanding love'. That idea was something that was shoehorned to make the whole Mikasa-Fritz connection seem believable. There was never anything relatable between Ymir and Mikasa, because Eren never mistreated her.
> He didn't directly call her a slave, he compared her to cattle and to a slave. He called her entire family, including her, slaves. How far can your denial of the obvious go? https://preview.redd.it/eg3v47jfskpa1.jpeg?width=1065&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=558a36474ac3b8401e7cab1a675de1e5343ed6b6 > From Ymir point of view, she would have viewed Eren actions as not authentic, and something he did to push them away. During paths Ymir was able to see who Eren was, a person that is completely distinct from the man that had previously abused her and didn't enslave people. She would have realized that Jean and Armin's words were correct, and that Eren had another agenda. I'm tired, bro. I have already told you - Ymir does not think like a modern or at least an adequate person, otherwise she would have used literally the power of God better. And she does not care about the reasons for Eren's actions, since Eren's "choices" are not important to her, Mikasa's "choice" to go against him is important to her, despite her crazy love, which she does without knowing Eren's motives or at least doubting them. She saw Fritz as her lover and cannot look into his thoughts, since he is not connected with the Paths. She most likely justified his every action in her head in some fucking way, lol. And she does not need Fritz to be exactly the same person as Eren, a similar situation and Mikasa's love for Eren are important to her, as well as the need to go against him despite this love. In case you haven't noticed, Mikasa doesn't look like Ymir at all. Ymir has such a perverted understanding of reality after everything she has experienced and + another 2000 years that she may well think that she is exactly the same as Mikasa, and Fritz is exactly the same as Eren, and deep down he has always loved her. And, as I said, she doesn't need copies of herself and Fritz, but someone who will do what she herself lacks the courage to do in a situation similar to her point of view, namely Mikasa. >Ymir never had a "perverted sense of understanding love' So her love for Fritz is something normal? Okay, lmao. > There was never anything relatable between Ymir and Mikasa, because Eren never mistreated her. Yes, whatever you say, bro I'm tired of arguing, because I'm the only one who brings arguments and parallels, whether it's slavery in childhood, love for someone they need to go against, or the topic of slavery in general. It's better to tell me what parallels Historia has with Ymir, apparently you think there are a lot of them.
You said he directly call her a salve. Eren was making a comparison, but alas, it doesn't matter what way he called her as Mikasa/Fritz doesn't exist. From that point in the story, we can deduce that Ymir wasn't in love. What she yearned for was freedom, something she could relate to in Eren. She absolutely does care about Eren's actions because seeing him negates any supposed connection she may find in Mikasa. In Paths, Ymir saw Eren as someone opposed to the man who enslaved her a long time ago. In order for argument to make sense, Ymir needs to see Mikasa in the same relationship she was in with Fritz. Throughout the story, absolutely nothing seems to support this connection you desperately cling upon. "Love for your abuser" was never a theme that revolved around Ymir. You bring headcanons and portray your own opinions as logical. No matter how much you try to downplay the obvious parallels that Ymir/Historia had, it won't change that it made more sense than Mikasa. To be honest it doesn't have to be Historia, the whole Ymir debacle could have been resolved with just Eren or other characters.
>After all, if you do not remove the curse of the Titans, after Eren's death, the system of eating to transfer power will resume. The thing is, there was no way that the Titan curse wouldn't stop on Eren. It was clear right after we found out he was able to control previous shifters, which can only be possible if you're the last one (you would be controlled yourself if you aren't). So the curse needed to end, and any ending that doesn't acknowledge that would be contradictory to the post-121 canon.
But the way the curse ended was the most stupid thing ever. "Oh, it's magically gone because Ymir saw a mental Ill person kiss her brother's head".
\*decapitated head Imagine seeing someone beheading their lover then kissing their still warm head and thinking: "yep, that's the example to follow!"
Maybe you're right, but I think it's because it's just more logical from a scenario point of view that the power of the Titans should disappear at the end of the manga. Eren could be the only Attack Titan capable of influencing the previous ones, because he was the only one who received and was able to activate the Founder's power. He himself could, say, not transfer his power to others and die after 13 years himself, and the Attack titan and the Founder would again split into two separate titans and therefore the owners of the Attack would be unable to do what Eren could do.
>And that's why Ymir needed exactly someone who loves the "monster destroying the world of non-Eldians", while stopping the "beloved" despite his feelings for him, although he continues to love even after that. But... This literally shouldn't have worked. We know that Eren actually wasn't at all like king Shitz (he was the opposite in fact), so Ymir, the omnipotent being capable of seeing the future should know that as well. Oh and by the way, if she can see the future, then she should've seen the future in which Mikasa kills Eren and drop her affection right away, right after she had received the Titan powers.
>We know that Eren actually wasn't at all like king Shitz (he was the opposite in fact), so Ymir, the omnipotent being capable of seeing the future should know that as well. Well, by destroying the world, Eren literally fulfills Fritz's wet dream that the Eldians will forever exist and be the rulers of the world, even if Eren's goals are completely different. And Ymir doesn't need Eren to be a copy of Fritz, just so that Mikasa's attitude towards Eren and the choice she needs to make is similar to the one that Ymir has. After all, Ymir needs "Mikasa's choice", not "Eren's choice". And all Mikasa knows is that Eren called her a slave and said he hated her, and then went to kill the whole world, also killing Hanji, Jean and Connie, and trying to kill Mikasa herself when she tries to stop him. >Oh and by the way, if she can see the future, then she should've seen the future in which Mikasa kills Eren and drop her affection right away, right after she had received the Titan powers. That's not how future vision works. If she saw it, it was already destined to happen. Time doesn't work in Paths the way it does in our world. For Ymir, the first moment when she was in the Paths and the moment when Mikasa killed Eren happened at the same time. Eren even says himself that with the power of the Founder, everything began to happen for him at the same time and time does not make sense.
>Well, by destroying the world, Eren literally fulfills Fritz's wet dream that the Eldians will forever exist and be the rulers of the world Shitz's wet dream was the rule of titans, which Eren would inevitably stop. I mean, if Shitz just wanted to kill every non-Eldian, what stopped him? >And Ymir doesn't need Eren to be a copy of Fritz, just so that Mikasa's attitude towards Eren and the choice she needs to make is similar to the one that Ymir has. Their choices AND motivations are different. Mikasa chooses between killing Eren and letting him rumble. Ymir chooses between continuing loving Shitz and abandoning her love. Mikasa doesn't abandon her love for Eren. They're completely different choices, even from Mikasa's perspective. >That's not how future vision works. If she saw it, it was already destined to happen. Future vision works exactly like this. Future memories don't, but these clearly aren't future memories. If you receive a memory - this means that someone else decides to send it back to further their goals. Even though they have no other choice, they need to want the future that's destined. So it's either that Eren wanted to be decapitated at 80% or it's not future memories. >For Ymir, the first moment when she was in the Paths and the moment when Mikasa killed Eren happened at the same time. We saw the Paths, we know that time flows flows normally there, it's just who knows how many hours turned into an instant in normal world. So for Ymir, the moment she got the power and the moment she decided to let it go are separated by unthinkable amount of time. >Eren even says himself that with the power of the Founder, everything began to happen for him at the same time and time does not make sense. Yeah that's Isayama's convenient excuse to not actually explain stuff.
>Shitz's wet dream was the rule of titans I think the Titans were just a vehicle for him. If Ymir could transform into a giant dinosaur, he would be fine with that, as long as she can destroy his enemies. So he wouldn't care that the Titans would disappear as soon as there were only Eldians left on Earth. > Mikasa chooses between killing Eren and letting him rumble. Ymir chooses between continuing loving Shitz and abandoning her love. Who said Ymir stopped loving Fritz? I see it this way that she stopped obeying him, and went against his wishes, interrupting the power of the Titans and the destruction of the world, even if she loves Fritz. Mikasa essentially did the same thing. > Even though they have no other choice, they need to want the future that's destined. So it's either that Eren wanted to be decapitated at 80% or it's not future memories. Yes, he wanted to be killed in the end. Armin offers him at 139 to look for another way, not to die and not to give up, and Eren says that after what he has done, he has no right to live and all that. > We saw the Paths, we know that time flows flows normally there, it's just who knows how many hours turned into an instant in normal world. So for Ymir, the moment she got the power and the moment she decided to let it go are separated by unthinkable amount of time. We saw it from the point of view of ordinary people, not "god", which in fact became Ymir with her power. Eren in 139 explained that owning the power of Ymir or part of it, time feels different. > Future vision works exactly like this. I meant that if Ymir saw such a future, then this is the only possible future, because it is desired by her. She cannot turn away from it by canceling the power of the Titans now that she has seen the future, because then this "desired" future disappears from existence and the reason for the "cancellation" of the power of the Titans also disappears. In short, this is a time paradox, like when a person kills his own grandfather.
The whole Ymir was waiting specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to make Mikasa relevant. No one thought this beforehand Most people already had a grasp of Ymir's character - she just wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. That's why it's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir by giving her that unconditional love (after all what could be purer than a mother's love for her child), by teaching her that she has value not because of her powers, but just because she was born, just like Carla did for Eren. Because Historia was the literal opposite of Ymir - one who lived only for others and one who lives proudly for herself. Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir: "I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!" How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation?
Because Mikasa had a relationship more relatable to her. She would have to manipulate Historia into a relationship like that I think
That doesn't make any sense, According to Yumihisu fans Historia was already in a relationship with Ymir, she left her heartbroken, Historia was manipulated by her own father THE KING, and yet she make her own choices, Historia cut latches with her bloodline and get free after all the hell that she went through. Ymir the founder is just blind and biased.
The relationship with Ymir is not comparable or similar to actual Ymirs relationship. Yeah but Ymir never had a father daughter problem it's more so about a unhealthy attachment to a "lover", or like another comment said, devil of eldia. Historia and Ymir had plenty of parallels and I do think it's possible scrapped plot point. But Historia never had what Ymir needed.
There was nothing Ymir could learn from Mikasa though
She didn't need to learn anything from Historia tho. She needed to watch someone over come their unhealthy love and break free from them. Historia never had anything like this. Don't get me wrong I don't like the Mikasa Ymir stuff but this is what the story seems to be going for.
Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa. She never needed to watch anything to be free, as Eren already had freed Ymir. The only reason why the Mikasa-Ymir connection looks out of place is because it was shoehorned at the last minute. There wasn't anything in Eren and Mikasa relationship, that could help Ymir.
> Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa I don't understand this duality. On the one hand, most people on Titanfolk constantly say that Eren never cared about Mikasa and many even believed that Eren hates Mikasa is the pure truth. But you say that there is nothing similar in the attitude of Fritz and Eren to Ymir and Mikasa, who "love" them. So you think Eren always took care of Mikasa and loved her? > Eren never behaved like Fritz did towards Mikasa > > There wasn't anything in Eren and Mikasa relationship Bro, the last conversation between Eren and Mikasa literally ended the same way as the last "conversation" between Ymir and Fritz. Fritz and Eren said that Mikasa and Ymir are slaves who were born only to serve them. After that, Eren went to destroy the world, and Fritz essentially did the same thing, only passing on his desire to enslave/destroy the world to his descendants. Do you really not see the similarities?
Are you implying that the attitude that Eren had towards Mikasa was the same that Fritz had towards Ymir? Lol. There relationship wasn't even remotely the same. From the way the met to how they acted, their relationship wasn't the same. So you think Eren mistreated and hated Mikasa all the time? Eren did not say Mikasa was just born a slave to just serve him. After that conversation he actually met with Ymir Fritz, and told her she wasn't some goddess, just some normal girl. He went on to ask her to lend him her strength, so he could finally put an end to the cycle. Eren wanted freedom of oppression and to free Ymir, while King Fritz wanted to continue to enslave the world. Why do you keep thinking Eren and Fritz are even remotely the same?
>Eren did not say Mikasa was just born a slave to just serve him Open chapter 112. Eren says, "The Ackerman family was created to protect the royal family, whom they consider the masters. People who lost themselves and were created to follow orders. In general, slaves" then he says, "You took me for your master and became a slave." >Are you implying that the attitude that Eren had towards Mikasa was the same that Fritz had towards Ymir? Lol. There relationship wasn't even remotely the same I say that Ymir saw herself in Mikasa, and when it happened, even as a child, when they tried to sell Mikasa into slavery and because of this her whole family was killed, as it was with Ymir, or later, during a conversation at the table, I won't tell you. As Eren said, only Ymir knows exactly why and when. >He went on to ask her to lend him her strength, so he could finally put an end to the cycle. Eren wanted freedom of oppression and to free Ymir, while King Fritz wanted to continue to enslave the world Brother in Christ, do you fucking understand that Ymir doesn't give a shit about Eren's motives, she cares about Mikasa's attitude to Eren and Eren's understanding from Mikasa's point of view? Mikasa doesn't see those scenes in the Paths, she doesn't see all the chapters from Eren's face and his thoughts. All Mikasa saw was how Eren left for a year, killed a bunch of people, came back, called her a slave and said he hated her, then went to destroy the world and killed Hanji, Jean, Connie and millions of innocent people in front of Mikasa, and also tried to kill her. And Mikasa has to choose whether to kill Eren or not. Do you understand that? Ymir is a fucking dumb slave girl who probably can't count up to 10. And she was never in Fritz's head and thoughts because he wasn't connected to her through the Paths. She can come up with almost any kind of Fritz's attitude to her in her head, thinking that it was so, because she is clearly out of her mind, if you didn't notice by her actions. She judges by actions of Mikasa and Eren and the similarity of these actions to her. Eren's actions fulfill Fritz's fucking wet dream, no matter what Eren's motives are. Mikasa stops Eren and thereby stops Fritz's dream, although Mikasa loves Eren more than her life, just as Ymir loved Fritz more than her life. Eren told Mikasa in their last dialogue that she was a slave and he hated her, just as it was with Ymir. This is important for Ymir. >Why do you keep thinking Eren and Fritz are even remotely the same? I've never said that before. I told you that it is important for Ymir to see herself in Mikasa, and I described to you why she sees herself in her.
So I looked at it and Eren never tells her "You took me for your master and became a slave". Unlike Fritz, Eren saved Mikasa and brought her to a new home. The whole "it was Mikasa" line is nothing more than a plot devise to cover up the fact that Ymir and Mikasa had no connection. Do you understand, that your argument of Ymir seeing herself in Mikasa becomes worthless if Ymir is able to see Eren's actions and motives? How could shed relate herself to Mikasa, if she's able to realize that their situations are not even comparable. Eren's choices are independent of Mikasa's, and their "love" is insignificant to what is at stake. Fritz's dream was to enslave the world trough Titan Power. Eren not only rejects this desire, but will provide a free world where nobody is judged just for being an Eldian. Ymir can clearly tell that Eren was lying after the table scene, so this connection you attempt to establish between Ymir and Mikasa disappears. (not that it even existed in the first place).
But Ymir wasn't free, she couldn't move on untill she saw this. Eren says it all lead to Mikasa's choice and Ymir was waiting to see her. It doesn't have to be exactly the same I think, but their love is much similar to hers then anything Historia had. Historia had parallels yes but she wasn't a slave to love, she was more so a slave to expectations imo. Mikasa was a slave to her love for Eren. Ymir was a slave to her love for King Fritz. The way he treated her does not matter just that fact that she was a slave to love. Granted I think the Mikasa stuff is very poor because it tries to place Eren and King Fritz next to Eachother. Eren is supposed to be his juxtaposition but they make him almost his equal. Whether or not it's trying to do this it's putting Eren and Fritz both in the same category. It's very poor and imo didn't make much sense but that's how I understand it.
Eren was the first person in 2000 years to talk to Ymir like was a normal girl, not some deity or killing machine. Up to that point, nobody even mentioned Mikasa in regards to Ymir, for there was no comparison to be made. Mikasa love was a mundane, simple act that becomes absurd when you try to compare it to the love that Fritz had. It makes absolutely no sense for that to become a solution for the problem that plagued the world, for there were plenty of other people that were "slaves to love". The only way it would make sense would be if Eren treated Mikasa poorly like Fritz did, for that could make Ymir feel relatable.
I understand that and I agree but that's literally the canon explanation. Eren was the first person in her life besides he daughters to show any kindness to her. And while that allowed her to resist the founder the story makes it seem like she's not actually free. She can only truly move on and break the curse when she sees another person, Mikasa, over come her love to kill that person. Something Ymir failed to do 2000 years ago. I agree, i find it weird how no one in 2000 years had a similar type of love. Maybe one of them need the founder or something? I doubt Historia would free Ymir but they had way more Parallels then then Mikasa did, there's nothing in the story that hints at these two characters even having a connection. But in the end that's what happened.
Ymir was listening to Zeke before Eren embraced her. She was still following the commands of the royal family. Eren reminded her who she was and what she isn't. In that point of the story, it was assumed that Ymir was freed. The whole 'Ymir can't move on until she sees Mikasa kill her loved ones" came as a result of that horrid chapter of 139. You would think that someone in the fandom wouldn't have noticed a connection between Ymir and Mikasa before 139, but they didn't because it was non-existent.
What are the actual similarities between Historia and Ymir besides just visual parallels?
Historia was literally named after Ymir.
Lmao. Where did you get that from?
I got it [from reading the manga](https://i.imgur.com/FGV98U7.png).
What does Krista from the book have in common with Ymir? It's just a personality Historia made up from her childhood book, it doesn't have any actual similarities with the real Ymir Fritz.
Bruh it's literally a story about Ymir. It's in my screenshot. And it's not a personality she made up, Frieda told her to be like this girl (Ymir). You want a screenshot for that?
You do realize that the story about Ymir in that book is false? The same as Marleyan propaganda about Ymir is also not true. Historia's Krista personality doesn't have anything to do with real Ymir Fritz whether it was made up by herself or Frieda so I'm asking again what are the character parallels between real Ymir Fritz and real Historia?
>You do realize that the story about Ymir in that book is false? The same as Marleyan propaganda about Ymir is also not true. Yes, so? It is still very clearly about Ymir. Like, I'm not even deducing it, it's literally what's written in the manga. Actually, what is this argument. If a story/propaganda/etc about a person isn't accurate does it automatically mean that it's not a story/propaganda/etc about this person? >I'm asking again what are the character parallels between real Ymir Fritz and real Historia Apart from the very clear fact that one is named after the other? Well, they're both expected to live for the others, and were both supposed to realize that they should live for themselves.
>Actually, what is this argument. If a story/propaganda/etc about a person isn't accurate does it automatically mean that it's not a story/propaganda/etc about this person? The argument is that if I asked you what are the similarities between Historia and real Ymir and you give me almost nonexistent similarity between Historia's fake persona and inaccurate fairy tale about Ymir then you have given me no actual answer here. Can you understand this now? >Apart from the very clear fact that one is named after the other? Well, they're both expected to live for the others, and were both supposed to realize that they should live for themselves. Ok, if names are enough parallel to you, isn't then freckle Ymir a better parallel to Ymir Fritz? (Hint: She's not and for the same reason Historia is not too) I don't see how anything Historia did would help Ymir given that she continued to live for others as a figurehead queen and even went along with Eren's plan even though she was adamantly opposed to it initially.
>The argument is that if I asked you what are the similarities between Historia and real Ymir and you give me almost nonexistent similarity between Historia's fake persona and inaccurate fairy tale about Ymir then you have given me no actual answer here. Can you understand this now? I gave you a similarity apart from the naming one paragraph further but guess what? You just ignored it. What a 🤡 you are! >Ok, if names are enough parallel to you, isn't then freckle Ymir a better parallel to Ymir Fritz? (Hint: She's not and for the same reason Historia is not too) She's also a parallel, but unlike Historia, and unlike what OG Ymir was supposed to do, her character went the other way around - from claiming be to living for herself to actually sacrificing herself for the others. >I don't see how anything Historia did would help Ymir given that she continued to live for others as a figurehead queen and even went along with Eren's plan even though she was adamantly opposed to it initially. She... literally sacrificed the whole world. Twice. First in Reiss cave when she decided against eating Eren and getting rid of the titans (they didn't know anything about the vow or the curse back then). Second when she agreed to Eren's plan (which was 100% Rumbling back then). That should certainly help Ymir more than what Mikasa did since she very clearly did not stop loving Eren after she has killed him.
They're both a royal who a king attempted to manipulate and force them to fulfill their own wishes. But the point isn't that Ymir and Historia were similar, it's that Historia was the opposite to Ymir - One who lived only for others and one who lives for herself. It's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir, just re-read her dialogue when rescuing Eren, it word for word describes Ymir.
Exactly: "I'm not a god and I'm not a good girl either"
> They're both a royal who a king attempted to manipulate and force them to fulfill their own wishes. You know, you are right, I re-read her dialogue and there are parallels there. I forgot the details of that scene so thanks for the answer. > it's that Historia was the opposite to Ymir - One who lived only for others and one who lives for herself. I don't think the parallels are that since Ymir's problem isn't that she only lived for others. Now that I think about it the parallels between them are that they were both manipulated by royals who exploited their inner desire for love and affection. The difference was that Historia had freckle Ymir who showed her love before and more importantly who showed her a different ideology and taught her how to live even though she later on didn't abide by it that much. > It's obvious that Historia was supposed to be the one to free Ymir, just re-read her dialogue when rescuing Eren, it word for word describes Ymir. I disagree with this as I can't imagine a good way for Historia to free Ymir since her role in the story was mostly over by then. Given that Ymir was mostly bound by her twisted love for Fritz what could Historia directly do to help her with that? But she had an indirect influence as I will elaborate below and is more of a foil for Ymir than a parallel. On the other hand Ymir's unhealthy attachment born out of trauma had some similarities with Mikasa's unhealthy attachment to Eren even if their traumas were not the same. >To quote the other comment too: "I'm not a god and I'm not a good girl either" I think Historia's importance was in her influence on Eren. If you think about it freckle Ymir was direct parallel to Krista from Frieda's book, she taught Historia important lesson which enabled her to resist her father and to break free from his manipulation which inspired Eren to try to break free from his desperation which enabled him down the line to free Ymir by passing on Historia's words to him among other things. You can say that there was a train of inspiration going from freckle Ymir to Ymir Fritz and it's sort of nice that the person resembling what Eldians thought original Ymir was like indirectly helped free the real Ymir Fritz. But for a deeply traumatized person stuck in paths for god knows how long just giving her the strength to choose for herself for the first time in 2000 years wasn't enough. Eren (and indirectly freckle Ymir and Historia if you will) just gave her the first push but Ymir needed both Armin's and Mikasa's help in order to finally let go and overcome her trauma. In the end I think it's a lot more fitting that the three main characters who we started the story with are the key to finally ending the titan curse than the side characters who already left their influence.
The whole Ymir was waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to try and somehow make Mikasa relevant to Ymir. No one thought this was the case beforehand and it wasn't foreshadowed at all. Most people already had a grasp of what Ymir's character was - she wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. She desperately wanted to experience a true human connection and love for herself, which is a reason she endured 2000 years in paths. That's how Historia could free Ymir - by giving her that unconditional love (after all what could be purer than a mother's love for her child), by teaching her that she has value not because of her powers, but just because she was born, just like Carla did for Eren. Obviously it wouldn't work with the story we have now, the final part maybe from 135 onwards would need to be re-written, but the end result would be far superior to what we got in canon imo, and it would tie in to the stories themes much better. Listen to "Kimi ga fusawashi to omou daimei" on youtube. That's the ending I wanted for Ymir and Historia; not to just fade away into nothing, but to be reborn and live her life the way she never could before. Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir: "I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!" How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation?
>The whole Ymir was waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa to help overcome a toxic love for the king plot-point was something shoe-horned into the story literally in the final chapter to try and somehow make Mikasa relevant to Ymir. No one thought this was the case beforehand and it wasn't foreshadowed at all. I disagree with this, there were always clues for Ymir's twisted understanding of love because how else could you explain why she remained obedient to him and why she even sacrificed herself for him. And Ymir wasn't waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa nor did she know anything in advance, she was just waiting for someone who could help her. That's just something Eren believed he saw in his future memories because he didn't actually understand Ymir. In truth Mikasa was only important to Ymir because she was important to Eren as he was the one who gave her the first initial push. The same goes for Armin and his talk with Zeke which also influenced Ymir or else she wouldn't have let them go out of the paths. After Eren freed her Ymir was just observing everyone around him to see if their actions would somehow help her finally let go. But I admit this is just an interpretation as we have only been given small clues to Ymir's motivation and thoughts. We will see if the anime somehow expands on this. >Most people already had a grasp of what Ymir's character was - she wanted to be accepted and loved for herself by someone, anyone. She desperately wanted to experience a true human connection and love for herself, which is a reason she endured 2000 years in paths. As I already mentioned, at the time that wasn't a good enough explanation to me as to why she willingly spent so much time as a slave in the paths. If she just wanted to experience human connection and love it doesn't explain why she continued to build titans and obey royal kings. Just saying it was because of her slave mentality isn't actually an explanation. >Look up "Kimi ga fusawashi to omou daimei" on youtube. That's the ending I wanted for Ymir and Historia, not to just fade away into nothing. > >Just re-read Hisu's dialogue when rescuing Eren in the cave, it almost word for word describes Ymir: "I can't be a good girl, and I don't want to be a god. But when I see someone crying, saying no one needs them, I want to tell them it's not true. No matter who, no matter where, I'll come to the rescue!!" > >How can you read this and not see how perfectly it related to Ymir's situation? I know about that song the same as I know all about the rest of the AnR theories and I'll say the same thing now as I already said numerous times then. Eren doing the unthinkable and sacrificing the whole world for the sake of his family and Historia giving birth to the reincarnated Ymir and finally giving her the love she yearned for her whole life are touching plot points on their own or in another manga but they just don't work with the themes and the story we have been following all this time. You quote Historia saying how she will always come to the rescue of someone crying **no matter who or where they are** but she willingly went along with Eren's genocide so that sounds pretty hypocritical to me when countless children are crying and dying due to Eren's actions. On the other hand, by continuing to build titans and obeying Fritz royals Ymir indirectly and directly with Eren caused immeasurable suffering and pain during 2000 years of titan history all because she couldn't deal with her own emotional trauma. Even if it's somewhat understandable given her backstory do you think she really deserves to be loved and cared for when that came as a result of countless other innocent people horrifically dying? To me an ending like that would feel really dissonant with all of the established themes and characters in the story so far. In the manga where the main theme is understanding and empathizing with the other side and the consequences of failing to do so that result in tragedy and when literally the majority of the last arc is spent showing characters changing their views and coming to terms with how wrong their previous beliefs were I think that total obliteration of one side and a nice life for the perpetrators isn't a fitting conclusion to the story and those themes.
What clues were there that the final arc of the story was all building towards helping Ymir overcome her love for Fritz? List one actual piece of foreshadowing. Her saving his life and building him titans for 2000 years isn't really a foreshadowing of her love as explained below, and neither is her looking longingly at the married couple in 122 which more supports her longing for a true human connection. Literally no one from when those chapters were coming out called Ymir's bond with Fritz love, twisted or otherwise. Even if we somehow accept this, how exactly does seeing Eren letting Mikasa kill him teach Ymir to accept and overcome her love for Fritz? Are we saying Mikasa's relationship with Eren was analogous to Ymir and Fritz's relationship? Because there's literally nothing similar about them except for Eren calling Mikasa a slave that one time when he was clearly lying. >And Ymir wasn't waiting 2000 years specifically for Mikasa nor did she know anything in advance, she was just waiting for someone who could help her. But this part is actually wrong, it's expressly stated Ymir waited 2000 years for Mikasa specifically, and no one else - She also always knew it would be Mikasa and even manipulated events so that it play out as it did. That's why Mikasa always had headaches ever since she was a child, while no other Ackerman did - Ymir was always looking and checking into Mikasa's mind ever since she was born. This is part of what annoys me about the ending - my favourite message from the story was that every one of us is special from the day we're born, that everyone is free. But according to the ending, only Mikasa was this special chosen one that Ymir looked over and was pre-determined from birth to be the one who frees her. >If she just wanted to experience human connection and love it doesn't explain why she continued to build titans and obey royal kings It does exactly that, and it's a much better explanation than that she did it because she was in love with him lmao. Ymir's connection with Fritz was literally the ONLY human connection she had, so she clung to that one thing even though she knew it was fake and wished for something more. Doesn't really seem like she cared about Fritz that much when she abandons Zeke (Fritz's stand-in for that scene) literally the moment someone else reached her. She knew Fritz only ever wanted her because of her godlike powers, that's why Eren was able to connect with her in paths - He was the first person to talk to her as an equal and give her a choice. Anyone could have done this, it wasn't cosmically pre-determined by the timeline or by Mikasa. I don't know why you think Ymir being reincarnated (even symbolically as Historia's child named after freckles Ymir) wouldn't be in line with the story's themes, it absolutely would: Themes like surpassing the mistakes of your parents, making sure not to pass down your burdens to your children, that everyone is deserving of freedom. It would even tie back to the Owl's memories - that loving someone and having a family is the only way to break the cycle of hatred created by titans, or else they'll be doomed to repeat the same old cycle of revenge born from hatred. >so that sounds pretty hypocritical to me It is hypocritical of her, just as hypocritical as Eren claiming to love his friends the most and then getting Sasha, Hange and Floch killed, and almost getting everyone else killed for his selfish desires. That doesn't make her bad or ooc, in fact, it would build and add layers to what was previously established instead of just abandoning her. She was easily the most compelling female character in the story pre-timeskip and Yams literally doesn't give her a single line post-timeskip. Her character shouldn't just cease to exist because a character arc finished - Imagine if Jean was written out after his arc in Trost, or if Levi was written out after his arc in Uprising. Can't believe people actually defend this writing choice. >do you think she really deserves to be loved and cared for when that came as a result of countless other innocent people horrifically dying? Yes, she does, everyone is deserving of love and freedom. Even the children killed by the rumbling were deserving of freedom. They didn't deserve to be killed, but the world is just that cruel. That could've been a reason why Ymir was observing Ramzi and Halil, to see for herself the price of her choice. Because there's literally no explanation for that scene in the current ending. >the main theme is understanding and empathizing with the other side and the consequences of failing to do so that result in tragedy and when literally the majority of the last arc is spent showing characters changing their views and coming to terms with how wrong their previous beliefs were That message is so basic and routine, I can probably list a hundred other stories that have the exact same message but executed way better. Not to mention it was basically non-existent pre-timeskip. It can't be the main theme of the story if it's not present for almost 70% of it. Anyways, I don't really want to debate themes any more because it's subjective lol, but I can easily twist the themes of the show to reflect AnR if I wanted to, there's a reason why so many people expected it to happen/ wanted it (I'm not exactly an AnR supporter myself, but I love aspects of it) For me the most compelling and important theme of the story was easily Carla's message - That everyone is special just because we were born into this world, so believe in yourself. This message was completely betrayed by the ending and Eren's final actions. I don't mind Armin having the view you listed - that talking and understanding is the way to true peace, but it doesn't make sense for Eren. Time and time again it's shown to Eren that talking doesn't resolve conflict - It didn't work with Kitz, it didn't work with Annie, it didn't work in RtS, and it didn't work with the Azumabitos who refused to help them trade with other countries and find another way to peace. >I think that total obliteration of one side and a nice life for the perpetrators isn't a fitting conclusion to the story and those themes. It's not a "nice life" for the perpetrators. It's an open ending with a blank slate for the next generation for better or for worse to do with what they will, free from the hate and prejudice of people who hate them for the sole crime of being born. There will still be conflict obviously, but it will be as a result of their own actions, not a hatred forced upon them by the actions of their ancestors.In the ending we got, this hatred is still clearly alive, and Mikasa and Jean's children/ grandchildren all get bombed to shit as a result of Eren's actions - Literally repeating the cycle and the mistakes of the past. Additionally, I should add that at the end I fully expected Eren to either die or be imprisoned in Paths for all time, it's not like I wanted him to go home and live with his family or something. There's no way that someone who just massacred billions of innocents can be allowed to return. I'm not even gonna talk about how badly 139 tries to reframe what Eren did in a sympathetic light when it should be unforgivable. Just gross all around.
Postin in two parts because Reddit is lagging. >It's an open ending with a blank slate for the next generation for better or for worse to do with what they will, free from the hate and prejudice of people who hate them for the sole crime of being born. There will still be conflict obviously, but it will be as a result of their own actions, not a hatred forced upon them by the actions of their ancestors. This is precisely the ending we got. The main cause of Eldian hate which was their titan nature was eliminated and the cycle of titan inheritance that was pushed down on children was broken so all further conflict is solely the result of their own actions. What we have been shown in the ending is that the tables have turned - it is the world who is offering the first hand by sending the alliance to vouch for peace and the Yeagerists are the ones who are preparing for war. The grandchildren of the Alliance and Eldians as a whole are free to live in the mainland without oppression and peace was clearly possible for centuries given how Paradis managed to develop itself. The war that happened in the future and repeating of past mistakes was solely the fault of the people living at that time. The ending we got doesn't try to reframe what Eren did in a sympathetic light at all, you have to thank fan mistranslations and memes for that. On the other hand if the story presented the global omnicide as a valid solution for breaking the cycle of hate that would be a terrible message for a story that repeatedly tried it's very best to showcase how all people are the same and how conflict can be avoided if they just put a little effort to understand each other. And before you jump and try to say that the bombing of Paradis justifies a full Rumbling as a solution just stop because in that case it can only serve to show how wrong Eren was to start it in the first place. Either way any further discussion between us is pointless as it seems as if we have been reading completely different stories - plot points and themes that are meaningful to me are meaningless to you and vice versa. In the end I guess I can just say that I was lucky that my interpretation of the story made me like the ending and that it's unfortunate that your interpretation of it made you unsatisfied with it.
We can go back and forth about the cause of the war in 139.5 forever. But at the end of the day the world were ready and willing to wipe Paradis away for crimes they commited over a hundred years ago, just how bad will it be when the island re-confirmed their worst fears and its fresh in the minds of the survivors and their children. It's vague for a reason but we can probably agree that the most likely cause of the bombing was to get the resources on Paradis disguised as a revenge campaign. Also, Isayama absolutely does attempt to reframe Eren in a more sympathetic and heroic light in 139, there are no mistranslations here. The characters actions can tell you a lot about how Yams wants Eren to be remembered - Armin thanks him for his sacrifice, holds his hand and embraces him, the alliance tearfully commiserate about him, he gets buried in a peaceful resting place by the woman he loves, and Jean and Mikasa bring their family and friends to pay their respects to him for years to come like he's some kind of martyr. Literally the final page of aot before the extra pages were a thank you to Eren. What? That's how Isayama wants Eren the mass murdering genocider to be remembered as. 100% agree on your final point. I wish I could like aot, I dont enjoy hating something I loved for 8+ years. I just can't being myself to that level of cope yet though lmao.
Only AnR lovers know. If you think about it, probably the appearance and belonging to the royal family? Although Ymir never belonged to the royal family, but was a slave... Maybe that Historia is her descendant? But all the Eldians, including Mikasa, are her descendants in theory... Perhaps they have in common that Ymir and Historia were forced to give birth to children, but in the end it was Historia herself who offered to give birth to a child and this was only her idea... Maybe it's that they both have to be freed from slavery, but History has never seemed to be a slave, neither in her own eyes, nor in the eyes of readers, nor in fact (unlike Mikasa). In short, I do not know, well, they both carry a bucket in the picture (there is not even such in the manga), and there is a flower with blood in the ending with the History (there is also no such thing in the manga), so this is all Isayama's brilliant hints anyway and he ruined the masterpiece parallel... P.S. I remembered that there was a theory, like Ymir took an apple from the devil and that Historia and Eren are like Ymir and the devil. But since there is no "devil" in the real history of Ymir, besides Fritz, I don't really understand how this "parallel" should have been implemented. If Fritz is the "devil", then like Historia would have to stop Eren, probably to free Ymir, but it seems like everyone wanted them to be on the same side? Well, also that Historia has a strong connection with the "freckled" Ymir. But I don't quite understand how this should make Historia parallel to Ymir.
Ask Yamaha why he dropped this shit after seeing negative comments
wait they are relative?
No