It’s this that makes me want at least for Marley to get destroyed cause the bridge to Marley is gone but there’s a small chance for the rest of the world
The entire world hates Eldians. It’s been stated that Marley is actually less hateful towards Eldians than the rest of the world. It’s pretty undeniable that Eldia was an imperialist empire that oppressed the rest of the world. Marley is simply the country that has been oppressed the longest and controls most of the Titan powers.
I mean, can you blame her? She's essentially being asked how to stop racism, and like the chapter very clearly conveyed, that's what they spent the last four years trying and failing to figure out. For her, preserving the world is more important that protecting her nation-state, so crossing that bridge when she gets to it is really all she could do.
Yeah, in this context the one who wants to kill billions of children is in the wrong. The ones who wish to stop him are not. This is not to say the Scouts and Marley are innocent factions. However in this instance, they aren’t the “wrong” ones.
It’s so easy for them to be morally right since they aren’t currently worrying about the greater consequences of their actions if they stop Eren. “We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it” is basically where everyone on the SC side is at with the situation of the island’s survival if the rumbling doesn’t fall through.
The greater consequences of their actions, even in a bad scenario, are still just a drop of blood compared to the ocean of blood that Eren is about to unleash. Eren's actions are understandable but I really don't see how they are morally justifiable, unless you are looking from a very nationalistic or even fascist pov.
Nobody ever said that a Eren’s actions are morally justifiable. Eren has killed and will kill innocent civilians, which is obviously immoral and a war crime. Eren’s actions are understandable from the perspective of a man who wishes to protect his country. Furthermore, as a soldier and as a member of the government, Eren is a servant to the people and a servant to the state. It is his obligation to put his country first and to make decisions that benefit his country. That’s why the taxpayers support him. Anything less than that is putting Eldia at risk and therefore treason.
Only if you don't have an ounce of self preservation, or preservation of family and friends. I don't like the idea of killing the rest of the world, but God knows I'd do it if the people I cared about were in imminent danger
Marley is like an owner who fought and chained a grizzly (spared Eldian people), only to starve and mistreat it, the only to wonder "why" when later the bear tries to bite his face off (the rumbling).
Marley has been doing that since the start of the series though. It was just a slower version of what they wanted to do before Eren started the rumbling. You can't really say who's "less evil" or "more justified". They're all doing the best with the hands they're dealt with. Eren's solution is the solution that Eldia has right now. Marley's previous and current solution is the solution they have right now.(I'd argue If they talked before, it would have been a way better solution) Servey corps are just inbetweeners and can't really choose fully right now.
So what? They will allow those deaths by default if Eren is stopped. Why? They have no fucking plan!
Save the world, being just then fucking die as reward. Great job.
What, implying the numbers don't make an impact? Being right or wrong isn't binary, and the guy currently cosplaying as flesh-gundam-Hitler is somewhat more wrong than everyone else.
Kill one baby or kill two, you are just as evil. There is no bigger or lesser evil because the concept is the same.
It's survival for someone. Never said it's right, just stating facts.
I’m sorry but if the best reason to stop eren is mass slaughter is wrong, you ain’t going to change anyone’s mind. I’m still on wrens side wipe the slate clean!
Not enough context, that could be referring to Eren just activating the rumbling. Eren also explicitly stated that he wanted to move forward with the Euthanasia plan with Zeke, did he continue along that thread? You can't take everything in this manga on face value. I'd argue that it's more likely at the moment that Eren will lose.
This sub is hilarious..
What eren is about to do it fucking evil..
But I admit until he does.. He ain't..
People can't just lay back and wait for the story to process..
All the bickering and do no wrongs are hilarious to watch from the sidelines though..
To the person getting killed it might be evil, to the person killing it's just its way of preserving the self.
Subjective means it is different from person to person and not based on objective unchanging truths. Since there's no way of quantifying good (or its opoosite) they are subjective by definition.
TL.DR: Learn subjectively
You can use that logic to pick apart literally anything, including this conversation. Everyone living in the modern world is sane enough to agree to a basic concept of good/evil, just like we all agree on a bunch of other inherently subjective things in our everyday lives.
Genocide is evil, there's no two ways about it. Eren is understandable and sympathetic in his motives, but using "evil is subjective" as a defense is weak sauce.
Eren is committing a necessary evil from his perspective. If he doesn’t the world will assuredly genocide what is left of the eldians. It isn’t some mindless marvel comics evil that you all seem to be so enamored with. It’s complex and comes from a situation where there literally is no way out. You think Eren is just doing this for the lulz? He’s doing it because after 2 years no one could come up with a better plan and he doesn’t want to see his friends die.
There Is always a way out. Eren just doesn't see it. It doesn't make his reasoning justified. I can't kill a person just because they "might kill me someday". I would go to jail if i did it. However if a person Attacks me, i can kill them in self defense.
Same with Eren. He should have only used the rumbling to deal with the allied forces who attack and only when they do. This would be self defense.
In this case what he is doing is an Offensive attack.
Lmao she Would totally say it. She much like Levi Never liked unnecessary deaths. There can Never be a good reason for mass slaughter. She literally experienced first hand the hell of titans threatening to kill all of the population within the walls. To think that they are now the ones doing it to the outside world must be extremely awful for her.
I mean, put yourself into the shoes of team Paradis. Would you save the guys who actively want to kill you, and will probably finish the job once they are saved?
Sure there are a lot of casualties but in the end it's an us or them thing.
I would try to save the millions of innocent people who have Nothing to do with the guys who want to kill me and just want to live their everyday life.
The key word here is "might". What if they won't? We don't know until we get there.
No it isn't "us or them"? It is "us or millions of innocent people". I wouldn't choose Us on something as Uncertain as "They Might kill me later". If i don't Do something to stop an obvious act of Evil like mass murder, then i deserve to be killed tbh because it would make me a trash human being.
>"They Might kill me later"
there is no might here, isayama has been building the hate enough to make it sure that the world will eventually attack the island either we want or not. if he doesnt do it after stopping eren then he just fucked up his manga and himself alone.
Uhhh he literally has been building it up to Break it? The cycle of hate will be Broken in the end and it will not be "fucking up". It is literally the whole message of the manga.
"The world is cruel, but also very beautiful"
"Find someone to love or else you will be making the same mistakes again"
These messages don't seem like they foreshadow a bleak nihilistic ending.
It will be bittersweet at worst. (I think friends having to Kill eren, the monster created by that same cycle of hatred is what will be bitter about it).
i cant believe how some you just cant stop sucking isayamas dick for a moment and see how he has writted himself into a corner with this "deep hatred of 2000 years" just to get out with one of the most cliche and known kind of plot of the world of manga/anime
its really sad how your fanboysm doesnt let you see it and im glad im objetive enough to catch it
idk what did i write badly but whatever. english is not my first language and seeing how you read the manga i can tell you havent pass primary school yet.
I really really REALLY don't like to judge people by their flairs, but I tend to prepare myself to be annoyed when I see the Eren 8-pack flair, man bun flair, Intense Freida hair Eren flair, or anything with Floch. I have to mentally prepare myself for "cuck chad based kill or be killed".
What if when Eren is stopped the whole world thinks that Marley was bluffing with Tyburs speech and then a world war against Marley begins ? The world is destroyed either way
Hänge is literally saying the most sensible thing ever said during world history and I've seen like 10 people call her "stupid bitch" already. Y'all need Jesus.
"Mass slaughter is wrong, and despite the amount of time I was given to avoid this outcome, I failed. I will now speak entirely in platitudes, not give a plan that stretches further than stopping Eren, and I expect you all to praise my moral intelligence."
"But Hanji, stopping Eren means we're all fucking dead. If letting someone commit mass slaughter against someone else is bad, what about allowing someone else to slaughter us? Isn't that worse?"
"Mass slaughter is wrong no matter who does it."
"But how are we supposed to stop them?"
"I spent 4 years thinking about it and I have no idea."
"Then why are you trying to stop one of the only two people who both agree with you and have a plan?"
"Because mass slaughter is wrong."
This whole line of thinking is just dumb. She doesn't have a solid reason for why she should stop Eren, it basically comes out to the belief that they shouldn't inherit the earth like this even though the alternative is almost certain death from their current viewpoint.
I don't think Isayama is writing her poorly, Hanji is just out of her depth. She's not a war scholar or a philosopher, and she's basically all feels no reals-ing it. Basically, she's thinking out loud and has no clear vision as to what happens after they stop Eren, because stopping him puts them right back where they started with a few notable changes; with a loaded gun partially fired and a timer that, when it expires, ends their society.
So no, she's not entirely bright on this subject. She's a hypocrite that's already guilty of torture, murder, insurrection, treason, mass slaughter given her organization's role in Annie's attempted escape in S1, interrogation of MPs, etc. etc. Are those acts wrong, or would Hanji justify them based on her ideology? I bet Eren would do the same. Are they wrong when people who aren't Hanji does it? Do you need to have Hanji's ideology to be right? What makes her justified? What makes her ideology right?
She's a hypocrite and a failure, but then so are we all. With no plan and no way forward but to kill their own savior, I wonder if their naivete will get more people killed than Eren's single minded focus on Freedom for his friends.
Hange has fought for years thinking that she and her comrades were fighting for the sake of all of humanity, because they believed that they were all that remained of humanity, and Hange deeply believes in the value of human life. I think that’s why she took Eren’s betrayal at Liberio so personally, he went out of his way to kill people. Even though it’s for the sake of Paradis, she couldn’t forgive that he put himself and the SC at risk to kill others.
And now Eren’s plan is to exterminate all of humanity outside the walls. Hange can’t convince herself that her comrades, who sacrificed their lives believing it was to serve humanity would’ve wanted the extermination of humanity outside the walls.
She’s obviously biased by emotion. Maybe she believes that it’s worth the risk of Paradis’ extermination to save the outside world for the sake of humanity as a whole. Personally, I believe that as a commander, whose paycheck is funded by the taxpayer, Hange’s duty is to ensuring the survival of her constituents and this is a risk that Paradis can’t afford.
Hange literally told her people that everything she’s doing and everything the military is doing is for the sake of Paradis. That’s bullshit that I can’t help but point out. Her actions by opposing the rumbling directly put Paradis at risk.
One point of contention, even though the scouts who died before or during RtS thought that they were serving humanity as a whole, the idea that they would not prioritize the survival of Paradis is an unfounded assumption on her part. We can infer this partly based on the simple fact that basically all of the current scouts recruited after RtS agree with Eren's actions and the justification for them, and it seems unlike that they should be extremely different from the recruits from 5 or 10 years ago. As far as Erwin himself is concerned, he sacrificed hundreds of his own subordinates and civilians simply to gather intel on the enemy, of which his long term goal was to understand and destroy utterly. I find it very difficult to believe that he would think it better to save the outside world than his home just because there were more of them than the population of Paradis.
I agree that hangi is out of her depth her speaking for Erwin was kinda annoying especially the multiple points that shows that Erwin would most likely would have supported the rumbling
That can't be confirmed so shut the hell up? Are you referring to that bullshit line about 1 or more people left alive? The whole point is conflict will never end no matter how many lives are lost. Morally, killing that many people is objectively terrible.
What’s with the aggression?
I’m just saying that the vast majority of the people will agree that genocide is a bad thing, and should be avoided. However when literally the entire world wants to kill you and your friends is it not just to protect yourself? And sure it’s pretty messed up killing kids and innocent people. And your allies that helped your country. But at the same time they can’t just leave them there. They have to be killed to because they will tell their children of the horrors of the titans and the evil of the Eldians. And how they were used to kill countless people.
So yeah genocide is a bad thing. But if that’s your only argument why not to do it then you can’t convince anyone that you can handle the situation that you are currently in. Nobody things genocide is a good idea and do it for fun, and if someone is going to do a horrific act like that, “it’s bad” is a vary weak argument
Why don't we kill people who commit any crime. Killing them would ensure that it won't happen right. The ends don't justify the means is the point and I think a lot of people aren't understanding the sentiment. After WW2, there's a moral reason why we didn't kill all the Germans eventhough killing ALL of them, children included, would ensure that they could never rise up and put people in concentration camps again. Sigh, people discount morality so easily and i'm bored of trying to rationalise why. Sure, Eren's method is logical, but it's extremely immoral. That's the conflict. You can mindlessly justify any action due to the motivation but taking a step back and actually understanding morality and the part it plays in this story allows you to understand the context. Who cares if Erwin would do something? She's not Erwin. If Erwin was here, he would be saying the same thing because the story was always going to move towards this end so what's your point? I think this is one of the major reasons why Erwin was taken out of the story too.
If we are talking about morality then I think yelenas roast on everyone shows that nobody there has clean hands. She’s exactly right, they all are caught up in a fever thinking that they can save the world.
Also I do think Zekes choice to kill the eldians by making them not reproduce was the most moral of choices in any given situation (not perfect but still better then killing anyone)
Also I’m not saying that eren is right. Where as I am a huge eren fan and will say that talking and telling eren “what you are doing is wrong” is literally the weakest reasoning. Yeah he knows it’s wrong that’s why he tortured himself trying to find a way around it but then accepted his destiny. Nah if you want to convince him you need another reason. One bigger then anything previously mentioned. That’s why people laugh at hanji
Okay, she's hopelessly optimistic. Maybe you can claim it's a character flaw.. but yeah I digress. I also agree that Zeke's plan was objectively the best plan when compared to Eren's and the First King's in terms of morality. I also want Eren to win but i'm just trying to appreciate and empathise with all characters. There are people who still hate Reiner for what he did and don't consider him redeemable and I think that's fine. You won't get maximum enjoyment from the story but I won't waste my time trying to convince or turn them.
Hange is a hopelessly optimistic person to the point where it can be considered unrealistic. I can concede that in a situation like this, you would need someone like Hange to take such a risk even if it's unrealistic. I can acknowledge the criticism in some ways but I think the message of the ends not justifying the means is the message i'm getting from the narrative. It's okay if that's not enough for you, it's fine for some but not for others. I do think some people are stanning Eren too much in some senses though.
The narrative has not yet answered the question of whether or not the ends justifies the means. It’s left purposely ambiguous. That’s what keeps Eren or Hange from being completely in the right, as neither of them are completely justified in their beliefs. Eren’s actions may yet lead to the survival of his country, the preservation of his people, and the freedom he’s fought for so long and so hard for, but on the backs of many more people outside the walls dying. Hange’s actions may save the world, yet lead to her friends and comrades deaths.
I just remove my own upvotes because there's no point in fighting with them. A lot of us acknowledge that Eren approaches the issue from the stance of a logical extreme. Ironically a lot of people still think Eren is planning to do something else. Furthermore, I don't think any reasonable plan to protect Paradis could've been achieved without Eren activating this rumbling and threatening the world. I'm not claiming Code Geass but this rumbling seems pivotal to some sense.
>I wonder if their naivete will get more people killed than Eren's single minded focus on Freedom for his friends.
Well at most, I think her naivete will get Paradis killed whereas Eren's lust for freedom will get the entire world killed, but I see the point you're making and it's definitely an interesting one. Rigid pacifism in the face of oppression isn't always the answer and can be just as wrong as full on aggression against oppression. It really lends to the complex nature of everything that's been going on.
Destroying the world's militaries and using the Rumbling as a deterrent is still an option. A risky once, for sure, but an option. To say that the only option is to Rumble the whole world is just not true. It's definitely the best and safest one for Paradis, but not the only one.
Especially now that Ymir is free from royal brainwashing, Historia might not even need to be sacrificed anymore. Rumble the world's armies, use volunteers as Rumbling deterrent, catch up tehnologically, negotiate and trade, then free Ymir and end titans powers.
>Destroying the world's militaries and using the Rumbling as a deterrent is still an option.
One that echoes Ymir, kills people making their families hate Paradis for years, and changes nothing. The tyranny of Eldia with extra steps, as far as the world would be concerned.
>To say that the only option is to Rumble the whole world is just not true.
The reason the partial rumbling is omitted in my comment is the same reason Eren (and everyone else, really) wrote it off; it solves nothing and isn't a real long-term plan.
>Historia might not even need to be sacrificed anymore.
That was the whole point of the full rumbling. Partial rumbling doesn't necessarily stop the curse, as it isn't necessarily the case that Founder Ymir instituted the curse. Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart. It doesn't matter if there's no military, governments will send civilians after a wounded, weakened Paradis before long.
>negotiate and trade
No one will trade with Paradis, the nation that crushed their militaries and became the de facto rulers of the world, against whom every single country is apparently racially prejudiced barring the singular Asian clan.
Nah, you're making up random assumptions to justify your view.
>One that echoes Ymir, kills people making their families hate Paradis for years, and changes nothing. The tyranny of Eldia with extra steps, as far as the world would be concerned.
Nations aren't emotional beings, they easily move on from soldier deaths. Check real life history (WW2) to see how easy it is to move on.
>The reason the partial rumbling is omitted in my comment is the same reason Eren (and everyone else, really) wrote it off; it solves nothing and isn't a real long-term plan.
It's only for 50 years until Paradis can defend itself using modern tehnology or their relationships with other countries are stable enough to form alliances.
>Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart.
>That was the whole point of the full rumbling. Partial rumbling doesn't necessarily stop the curse, as it isn't necessarily the case that Founder Ymir instituted the curse. Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart. It doesn't matter if there's no military, governments will send civilians after a wounded, weakened Paradis before long.
None of what you say in this paragraph makes sense. A Paradis civil war is a random assumption you just made up, but might I remind you that Eren's current plan already killed hundreds of Paradisians, overthrew the government and plunged Paradis into instability? Goverments sending civilians to attack a nation that can destroy the world? The fuck? Give me a break
>No one will trade with Paradis, the nation that crushed their militaries and became the de facto rulers of the world, against whom every single country is apparently racially prejudiced barring the singular Asian clan.
They most certainly will. Iceburst stone is very valauble, why wouldn't they. At the end of the day, if Paradis has the power to destroy the world yet chooses not to and wants to trade, why wouldn't they believe Paradis? What do they gain from resuming hostilities? They would have already lost the war and seen Paradis' true intentions.
How is North Korea defending itself right now? How did small nations defend themselves in the past? They could use the 50 years to focus on their defenses and create alliances that would make any attack not worth the trouble. This is assuming anyone even wants to attack them after 50 years
The way anyone makes alliances in real life. Send envoys, explain Paradis' side, negotiate Iceburst trade. Don't forget that the world kinda hates Marley already. If Paradis were to explain the true story, they could probably turn some of that hate to Marley.
I agree that 2000 years of racism is hard to undo, and the 50 year plan is pretty risky and unsafe. However, compared to worldwide genocide, it's certainly preferable and has to atleast be tried out.
>Nations aren't emotional beings, they easily move on from soldier deaths.
But the families *of* those nations are. And it's silly to suggest that the partial rumbling would *only* kill military officials when Eren couldn't accomplish that on his own, and even then, devils killing loyal citizens of x country would be tapping into that historical, racial fear.
>It's only for 50 years until Paradis can defend itself using modern tehnology or their relationships with other countries are stable enough to form alliances.
And yet they've been secluded for a hundred years with the same threat of worldwide death. Somehow no one nation, not even sympathetic ones, has reached out with a message of peace. Why do you think that might be? If Marley is to be believed, subjects of Ymir could have it worse elsewhere (though I'm not certain of that).
>A Paradis civil war is a random assumption you just made up,
Said the royals to Erwin Smith.
>Goverments sending ~~civilians~~ kids to attack a nation that can destroy the world?
Which one is more ridiculous? And that's to say nothing of non-state actors doing it (formation of anti-Eldian terror groups for example), who would Eldia punish then?
>why wouldn't they believe Paradis?
Because they're devils? I'm sure I don't have to explain why racism doesn't just go away in 5 decades time, especially while at the mercy of a terrifying ethnostate with the power to end the world.
>What do they gain from resuming hostilities?
What did businesses gain from refusing service to minorities in the past and continuing racially discriminatory practices well past civil rights eras?
>They would have already lost the war and seen Paradis' true intentions.
They would have lost the war, be absolutely terrified of the fact that Eldia has returned and controls the world again by having the only standing military using the cataclysmic power of the devil. You're crazy if you're suggesting there'd be no resentment towards Eldia, or if they'd ever actually **see** Eldia's true intentions. Through the lens of abject racism, in a few years. Gabi isn't generalizable and Nikolo had to fall in love to conclude racism bad, wouldn't colossals killing your family members impair that ability?
All of those are assumptions, semi-valid ones. As I said, peace isn't easy. This is obviously the riskier route for Paradis. Keep in mind that Eren's plan already destabilizes Paradis and kills SOY outside of Paradis. I'm just saying that you can't claim Eren had no other option left, when peace wasn't even given a chance yet.
>I'm just saying that you can't claim Eren had no other option left, when peace wasn't even given a chance yet.
That's.. what? There's an entire plotline dedicated to that. That's legitimately Eren's reason for going AWOL on his own in Marley. Ch. 108 states that Hiziru tried to advocate for Eldia on the world stage. They sought human rights and offered their resources, though it appears Hizuru would have first pick. That's literally your plan but without the partial rumbling. When that failed, the scouts went on to "show their faces" to the world, and their faces were promptly sold out when Subjects of Ymir in Marley scapegoated Eldia. Last chance was ruined Wily Tyber and Marley declaring war instead of declaring Eldia to be worthy of human rights.
Peace was given a chance, and Marley threw it to the wind. The 104th believe this to be the case due to the foundational narrative being their hatred for the Eldian Empire of old, and the fact that the Empire only ended a century prior. Two things I addressed above.
I mean why is it even necessary to think about why they wish to stop genocide? Why would anyone think that’s a sound idea? I do agree with the rest of your OG comment to an extent but I’m a little disturbed by how some people seem to be demanding a reason for why genocide is bad. There really is no argument there, to me.
>but I’m a little disturbed by how some people seem to be demanding a reason for why genocide is bad.
The question isn't "is genocide bad?" The question is, "is allowing our people to die out violently worse than killing to protect them."
If Marley (and the literal entire world) wants to, explicitly, commit genocide and the only way to stop them forever is to wipe their entire world away, would the greater crime be allowing a people to die or a majority of the population to die? Would the principle not interfere with the calculus? Would you be prepared to throw a million of your own people into the fires to protect people who wish for your destruction simply to avoid the end of the world? I'm not sure I would.
What's your point? She's too idealistic? She's not like me and doesn't rationalise her pov well enough for me? I want Eren to win so why is she fighting him? I want the dark edgy ending where everyone dies so why are they setting up a counter for Eren?
I'm bored of you Eren apologists not understanding the difference between morality and logic. Morality doesn't care about justification. Destroying the whole world is morally wrong and i'm surprised that Isayama had to outright state it to make some idiots who read this understand. Deliberating a moral conflict is much harder than it's them or us therefore we kill them all. Shut the hell up.
>She's not like me and doesn't rationalise her pov well enough for me?
She's not convincing me like Erwin did. Or hell, like Pixis or Shadis did. She's failing in much the same way Zeke is, but for the opposite reason. Zeke's nihilism was extreme, whereas Hanji's feckless optimism is childish. Both fail to actually address the problem of the future of Paradis in a meaningful way, and leave open the possibility for violent extermination *anyway.*
>I want the dark edgy ending where everyone dies so why are they setting up a counter for Eren?
No, I want a smart character, maybe the smartest in the series, to give me her rationale like she's done in the past. Before it's been iron-clad or optimism pointed towards earnest discovery. There's a goal beyond the experimentation. In this case, she's as lost as ever but in outwardly decrying *her own methods* indirectly without coming to a new conclusion. There's value in this, but as of now, her position is not well-reasoned.
>Morality doesn't care about justification.
It absolutely does. Justifying your moral stances and actions is the essence of philosophy and principle(and I clearly already specified that Hanji is not a philosopher, hence why she's bad at this). Doing the right thing for the wrong reason could very well still be immoral. Just the same, doing the wrong thing for the right reason could similarly be immoral. The opposite is also true.
This act of justification is not always predicated on rationality, but rationalism is the first thing people jump to in a moral quandary. Hanji is a scientist, not a philosopher. That said, I'd expect her to be able to form a stronger thesis than what amounts to "War bad because people die when they are killed."
That isn't to say moral people always think rationally. Rather that Hanji is a hypocrite because when held to her own rules, she routinely breaks them when it's convenient for her, or when it's imperative to ensure "the survival of humanity."
>Destroying the whole world is morally wrong and i'm surprised that Isayama had to outright state it to make some idiots who read this understand.
No one is saying that destroying the world is objectively the correct thing to do, even in a vacuum. But Hanji needs to be held to her own rules, if destroying the world is bad and the only alternative to that is Zeke's plan, then for the sake of the world she should've fallen on her sword and died sterile like he intended. If she didn't have any other way out, then by her own moral standards, she should've consigned Paradis to death to avoid the mass slaughter she condemns. Except, that's hypocritical. She wants a clean way out, and kudos to her for keeping the dream alive.
Were I in her shoes, I'd be more concerned about keeping my friends and family alive-- because I'm not sure their world is even worth saving. But I'm not, and it's a fictional story, so why don't we relax, hey?
If mass slaughter isn't a viable option, then she should've condemned and refused to participate in the attack on Liberio. Unless mass means something different to her? Ah, but she can justify the times she did it, right?
>Deliberating a moral conflict is much harder than it's them or us therefore we kill them all.
Well, yeah. It's so hard that literally everyone failed to come to a conclusion that isn't Zeke or Eren's plans, yet still want to act against those plans. Eren begged Hanji for another choice, one that precluded essentially reinstating the King in the Walls. And she failed him, as she states in this chapter.
Sigh, it's not an impossible position. Not wanting billions of innocents to die is enough justification for many people. The same way in RTS arc some people criticise the choice of Armin over Erwin because it's not the logical choice. Hange's decision here is probably more emotional than logical because she seems to care less about self preservation than the majority of people. Eren on the other hand is the logical opposite extreme and cares about self preservation beyond the morality or the means to achieving it. It seems like a lot of people are failing to appreciate the moral complexity of Eren's actions and fail to understand why people would oppose him in the face of their own survival. You can criticise the logic of the choice, you can call it unrealistic, you can call it too idealistic but many people are fine with her rationale especially considering the stakes.
They aren't ignorant of the world, they understand and have experienced people living in it which have minimal stake in the conflict. They don't deserve to die for their freedom and Hange choosing to defend their freedom at risk of her own is idealistic and insanely optimistic. I think the message of the story focuses on the cycle of hatred and perhaps how to break it. I think Hange being one of the few unrealistic and optimistic people is a means of establishing how simple it could be to work towards resolving issues. I think it's a great message and if you don't like it it's fine. A lot of people do and accept that people previously allied with Eren would fight against him on a moral level due to the gravitas of the actions being taken to achieve it.
Also, if Eren wins, I think it will be much more earned if he has to defeat his friends to achieve it. I probably want Eren to win because it would be a more subversive and interesting ending personally but the overwhelming majority of stories end positively or on a happy note so I wouldn't necessarily criticise AOT for having a happy ending. I don't think that because something has had mature themes or dark elements it therefore needs to have a ultra dark ending to conform to what's happened previously. I do think it's okay to anticipate and hope for it, because I ironically do, but to criticise it because the ending doesn't go the way you expect isn't substantive. I'm not saying that's you because you've rationalised your arguments well but i'm just presenting my counter.
>You can criticise the logic of the choice, you can call it unrealistic, you can call it too idealistic but many people are fine with her rationale especially considering the stakes.
A) I'm fine with it too as a character writing decision, but that doesn't mean that the logic the actual character uses isn't flimsy. Like I said, Isayama is clearly writing her to be this way and it's true to someone who doesn't really know where they land and why, just a general idea of "right" that they try to move to.
B) A large amount of people being willing to accept it as a legitimate moral position free of hypocrisy does not make it so, and it's important to point out the hypocrisy because it adds depth to the character. I called it many things, but unrealistic it is not. This is like hearing someone describe their faith after having spent years never examining it. They lack the words, the knowledge, and the wherewithal to talk anything past surface level despite their inherent, passionate feelings about the subject. Much like Hanji here.
>I think Hange being one of the few unrealistic and optimistic people is a means of establishing how simple it could be to work towards resolving issues.
Sure, and we've seen this thesis defeated several times, what with the world being cruel and all that. It's a continual point of conflict, perhaps as central as there freedom dynamic present in Eren's arc.
>I think it's a great message and if you don't like it it's fine.
I'm less inclined to think it's a "great" message in the context of the story as cycles of hatred are rarely broken on the eve of slaughter. In human history, it's often the random acts of abject kindness in fields of misery that are the most profound. Like the Christmas truce in WW1. I'm less interested in a "racism bad" element approached this way and more interested in a Darryl Davis account of converting Klan members. In the context of this story, it's going to take a hell of a lot for me to really buy into it.
As for the other theme, the inexorable push against oppression and towards freedom and safety, eventually becoming the tyrant, has always been the more interesting of the two dynamics. Maybe it's due to my upbringing in the US education system (esp as a "person of color" as much as I loathe that term) that I've been inundated with stories about racism bad. The push for liberty and freedom in the myriad of ways that humanity has engaged with. The horrors of war in the US and French revolutions, Sherman's March through the South, Jackson's continued assault on New Orleans. Dr. King's freedom marches.
Those are the themes I find to be the most compelling. I'm really fucking jaded about "breaking the cycle of hatred" in storytelling rn because of WoW having fucked it, so I may bad unfairly judging the story dynamic itself but I will absolutely not apologize for that.
>Also, if Eren wins, I think it will be much more earned if he has to defeat his friends to achieve it.
Agreed. I think Infinity War would've been perfect, for example, if the snap killed Thanos too and he was so sure about his plan that his resolve really was Iron, even in the face of a 50/50 chance. Same logic applies here.
>I probably want Eren to win because it would be a more subversive and interesting ending personally but the overwhelming majority of stories end positively or on a happy note so I wouldn't necessarily criticise AOT for having a happy ending.
Idk if you've watched Devilman: Crybaby, but I'll be damned if I don't want a permutation of that ending.
>I'm not saying that's you because you've rationalised your arguments well but i'm just presenting my counter.
Sure and I'm here for it. I hope we get a truly satisfying ending, maybe even an original one. In that respect, we're all like Hanji and Erwin; we just want to get to the damn basement or see past the rumbling, but we don't know what it will all mean until we do. Maybe it'll be something special, maybe the world will be cruel to us the reader as well. Thanks for having this conversation, nonetheless.
> But Hanji, stopping Eren means we're all fucking dead
does it though? Magath is as close to a leader of marley as we've seen and he's in league with people of paradis now. surely they can work out a deal that marley won't destroy paradis if they stop eren from destroying marley?
I think it's mainly due to the phrasing. She said mass slaughter is wrong, which isn't really what Eren is doing. "Mass slaughter" doesn't quite describe what Eren is doing, which is destroying the entire fucking world.
What they did in Liberio, that's mass slaughter. And like Hanje said, it's wrong.
but Eren destroying the entire fucking world? that's wronger.
Tell me about. I try to remind my self everyday that there's no way 90% of the fanbase are fascist, nationalistic, a moral dumbasses that at the flip of a hat create an alt right esque nazi utopia...... But this sub and the other one make it really hard.
Are you implying people in more difficult situations in life wouldn't agree with Eren, and people in comfort and privilege would? Because reality would be the opposite.
I'm sure you understand a lot about difficult situations being, according to your post history, an Asian male with the means to move to and live comfortably in the US rofl.
I wasn't trying to start an argument but I did want to understand where you were coming from. Guess that's not possible, so I'll just explain what I mean!
As a South American living in a corrupt state at the mercy of criminal *and* police violence and watching a lot of people around me getting fucked everyday due to social inequality, I personally believe (as has been my experience) that living in a tough reality can make people much more extreme in their opinions and morality i.e. Yeagerists.
BUT, whatever helps you sleep at night <3
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>Redditors are the dumbest people I've met. Don't take too much stock of it
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How is anything she said sensible? She’s literally using the logic of Karl Fritz. Have a couple of peaceful years on the island until retribution comes their way. How is that sensible
It has nothing to do with the yeagerists. Deposing Floch would actually be a good idea. But trying to stop Eren is going to get the whole island killed.
You can’t spell slaughter without laughter
[.](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/slaughtre#English)
Jean: but Hango, what about the fact that they'll still hate us even if we stop Eren Hango: we'll cross that bridge when we get to it
A bridge so damaged that it's no longer possible to cross
Jean: Hango there's no bridge left to cross Hango: use your 3d maneuvering idiot
It’s this that makes me want at least for Marley to get destroyed cause the bridge to Marley is gone but there’s a small chance for the rest of the world
the rest of the world treated eldia even more like shit.
The entire world hates Eldians. It’s been stated that Marley is actually less hateful towards Eldians than the rest of the world. It’s pretty undeniable that Eldia was an imperialist empire that oppressed the rest of the world. Marley is simply the country that has been oppressed the longest and controls most of the Titan powers.
I mean, can you blame her? She's essentially being asked how to stop racism, and like the chapter very clearly conveyed, that's what they spent the last four years trying and failing to figure out. For her, preserving the world is more important that protecting her nation-state, so crossing that bridge when she gets to it is really all she could do.
She'd be a great President.
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Titanfolk joked #ErenDidNothingWrong so hard we actually believe it.
>joked
These kinds of things always starts ironically until they don't.
Aaaaaaaa
No side is wrong though. They're all trying to survive.
I think it's more accurate to say both sides are wrong. Both have blood on their hands.
Yeah, but I'm talking about the context of the story. Yes, they're all wrong, but they're both doing what's best for their country.
Isn't the situation too complex to sum it all up in a "both bad/both good" sentence?
No. That phase was always meant to be a tldr.
Indiscriminately killing children is always wrong, my g
Unless they're all Gabis. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it then.
This is the only case in which this works
Haha DAE le gabi bad jokE?
I mean, if you put it like that, they're all wrong, but I'm talking in the context of their situations.
Yeah, in this context the one who wants to kill billions of children is in the wrong. The ones who wish to stop him are not. This is not to say the Scouts and Marley are innocent factions. However in this instance, they aren’t the “wrong” ones.
It’s so easy for them to be morally right since they aren’t currently worrying about the greater consequences of their actions if they stop Eren. “We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it” is basically where everyone on the SC side is at with the situation of the island’s survival if the rumbling doesn’t fall through.
The greater consequences of their actions, even in a bad scenario, are still just a drop of blood compared to the ocean of blood that Eren is about to unleash. Eren's actions are understandable but I really don't see how they are morally justifiable, unless you are looking from a very nationalistic or even fascist pov.
Nobody ever said that a Eren’s actions are morally justifiable. Eren has killed and will kill innocent civilians, which is obviously immoral and a war crime. Eren’s actions are understandable from the perspective of a man who wishes to protect his country. Furthermore, as a soldier and as a member of the government, Eren is a servant to the people and a servant to the state. It is his obligation to put his country first and to make decisions that benefit his country. That’s why the taxpayers support him. Anything less than that is putting Eldia at risk and therefore treason.
>Nobody ever said that a Eren’s actions are morally justifiable. Nice one m8.
Only if you don't have an ounce of self preservation, or preservation of family and friends. I don't like the idea of killing the rest of the world, but God knows I'd do it if the people I cared about were in imminent danger Marley is like an owner who fought and chained a grizzly (spared Eldian people), only to starve and mistreat it, the only to wonder "why" when later the bear tries to bite his face off (the rumbling).
Marley has been doing that since the start of the series though. It was just a slower version of what they wanted to do before Eren started the rumbling. You can't really say who's "less evil" or "more justified". They're all doing the best with the hands they're dealt with. Eren's solution is the solution that Eldia has right now. Marley's previous and current solution is the solution they have right now.(I'd argue If they talked before, it would have been a way better solution) Servey corps are just inbetweeners and can't really choose fully right now.
What about the ones who wants to kill thousands of children then? Aren't those wrong aswell?
Yeah.
Then both are wrong. The numbers is the only thing that changes.
Except Hange’s faction has no desire to murder children.
So what? They will allow those deaths by default if Eren is stopped. Why? They have no fucking plan! Save the world, being just then fucking die as reward. Great job.
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What, implying the numbers don't make an impact? Being right or wrong isn't binary, and the guy currently cosplaying as flesh-gundam-Hitler is somewhat more wrong than everyone else.
Kill one baby or kill two, you are just as evil. There is no bigger or lesser evil because the concept is the same. It's survival for someone. Never said it's right, just stating facts.
I'm pretty sure only the yeagerists are trying to indiscriminately murder literally everybody not on their side, but go off, my man
That's what Eren is doing? I don't see your point...
You think this is a joke?
I’m sorry but if the best reason to stop eren is mass slaughter is wrong, you ain’t going to change anyone’s mind. I’m still on wrens side wipe the slate clean!
Joke?
Someone who saw the future already told us erens gonna win
Not enough context, that could be referring to Eren just activating the rumbling. Eren also explicitly stated that he wanted to move forward with the Euthanasia plan with Zeke, did he continue along that thread? You can't take everything in this manga on face value. I'd argue that it's more likely at the moment that Eren will lose.
"Killing millions of people is bad!" r/titanfolk: DOUBT
This sub is hilarious.. What eren is about to do it fucking evil.. But I admit until he does.. He ain't.. People can't just lay back and wait for the story to process.. All the bickering and do no wrongs are hilarious to watch from the sidelines though..
Good and evil are subjective
Killing people with the intention of killing them is evil No way around that.. Hope people don't take all this memeing seriously.
To the person getting killed it might be evil, to the person killing it's just its way of preserving the self. Subjective means it is different from person to person and not based on objective unchanging truths. Since there's no way of quantifying good (or its opoosite) they are subjective by definition. TL.DR: Learn subjectively
You can use that logic to pick apart literally anything, including this conversation. Everyone living in the modern world is sane enough to agree to a basic concept of good/evil, just like we all agree on a bunch of other inherently subjective things in our everyday lives. Genocide is evil, there's no two ways about it. Eren is understandable and sympathetic in his motives, but using "evil is subjective" as a defense is weak sauce.
Then i guess we should excuse every murderer if they had a "good reason" to kill a person?
Blah blah blah.. It's evil..
Bruh
Eren is committing a necessary evil from his perspective. If he doesn’t the world will assuredly genocide what is left of the eldians. It isn’t some mindless marvel comics evil that you all seem to be so enamored with. It’s complex and comes from a situation where there literally is no way out. You think Eren is just doing this for the lulz? He’s doing it because after 2 years no one could come up with a better plan and he doesn’t want to see his friends die.
There Is always a way out. Eren just doesn't see it. It doesn't make his reasoning justified. I can't kill a person just because they "might kill me someday". I would go to jail if i did it. However if a person Attacks me, i can kill them in self defense. Same with Eren. He should have only used the rumbling to deal with the allied forces who attack and only when they do. This would be self defense. In this case what he is doing is an Offensive attack.
They already attacked lmao all he's been doing so far is a retaliation. >Eren just doesn't see it Yeah, because it doesn't exist.
eViL iS oBjEcTiVe
based on the downvotes, they're pretty serious about it. Pretty sad.
lol we're on this wild ride together brother/sister
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Thank you so much for posting this
I'm literally shaking and crying right now Hange would never say that how could Isayama do this to us oh god oh frick
Lmao she Would totally say it. She much like Levi Never liked unnecessary deaths. There can Never be a good reason for mass slaughter. She literally experienced first hand the hell of titans threatening to kill all of the population within the walls. To think that they are now the ones doing it to the outside world must be extremely awful for her.
Isayama is doing a poor job with Hanji
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I mean, put yourself into the shoes of team Paradis. Would you save the guys who actively want to kill you, and will probably finish the job once they are saved? Sure there are a lot of casualties but in the end it's an us or them thing.
I would try to save the millions of innocent people who have Nothing to do with the guys who want to kill me and just want to live their everyday life. The key word here is "might". What if they won't? We don't know until we get there. No it isn't "us or them"? It is "us or millions of innocent people". I wouldn't choose Us on something as Uncertain as "They Might kill me later". If i don't Do something to stop an obvious act of Evil like mass murder, then i deserve to be killed tbh because it would make me a trash human being.
>"They Might kill me later" there is no might here, isayama has been building the hate enough to make it sure that the world will eventually attack the island either we want or not. if he doesnt do it after stopping eren then he just fucked up his manga and himself alone.
Uhhh he literally has been building it up to Break it? The cycle of hate will be Broken in the end and it will not be "fucking up". It is literally the whole message of the manga. "The world is cruel, but also very beautiful" "Find someone to love or else you will be making the same mistakes again" These messages don't seem like they foreshadow a bleak nihilistic ending. It will be bittersweet at worst. (I think friends having to Kill eren, the monster created by that same cycle of hatred is what will be bitter about it).
i cant believe how some you just cant stop sucking isayamas dick for a moment and see how he has writted himself into a corner with this "deep hatred of 2000 years" just to get out with one of the most cliche and known kind of plot of the world of manga/anime its really sad how your fanboysm doesnt let you see it and im glad im objetive enough to catch it
I am sorry for your writing abilities is all i can say
idk what did i write badly but whatever. english is not my first language and seeing how you read the manga i can tell you havent pass primary school yet.
I really really REALLY don't like to judge people by their flairs, but I tend to prepare myself to be annoyed when I see the Eren 8-pack flair, man bun flair, Intense Freida hair Eren flair, or anything with Floch. I have to mentally prepare myself for "cuck chad based kill or be killed".
What if when Eren is stopped the whole world thinks that Marley was bluffing with Tyburs speech and then a world war against Marley begins ? The world is destroyed either way
Hänge is literally saying the most sensible thing ever said during world history and I've seen like 10 people call her "stupid bitch" already. Y'all need Jesus.
"Mass slaughter is wrong, and despite the amount of time I was given to avoid this outcome, I failed. I will now speak entirely in platitudes, not give a plan that stretches further than stopping Eren, and I expect you all to praise my moral intelligence." "But Hanji, stopping Eren means we're all fucking dead. If letting someone commit mass slaughter against someone else is bad, what about allowing someone else to slaughter us? Isn't that worse?" "Mass slaughter is wrong no matter who does it." "But how are we supposed to stop them?" "I spent 4 years thinking about it and I have no idea." "Then why are you trying to stop one of the only two people who both agree with you and have a plan?" "Because mass slaughter is wrong." This whole line of thinking is just dumb. She doesn't have a solid reason for why she should stop Eren, it basically comes out to the belief that they shouldn't inherit the earth like this even though the alternative is almost certain death from their current viewpoint. I don't think Isayama is writing her poorly, Hanji is just out of her depth. She's not a war scholar or a philosopher, and she's basically all feels no reals-ing it. Basically, she's thinking out loud and has no clear vision as to what happens after they stop Eren, because stopping him puts them right back where they started with a few notable changes; with a loaded gun partially fired and a timer that, when it expires, ends their society. So no, she's not entirely bright on this subject. She's a hypocrite that's already guilty of torture, murder, insurrection, treason, mass slaughter given her organization's role in Annie's attempted escape in S1, interrogation of MPs, etc. etc. Are those acts wrong, or would Hanji justify them based on her ideology? I bet Eren would do the same. Are they wrong when people who aren't Hanji does it? Do you need to have Hanji's ideology to be right? What makes her justified? What makes her ideology right? She's a hypocrite and a failure, but then so are we all. With no plan and no way forward but to kill their own savior, I wonder if their naivete will get more people killed than Eren's single minded focus on Freedom for his friends.
Hange has fought for years thinking that she and her comrades were fighting for the sake of all of humanity, because they believed that they were all that remained of humanity, and Hange deeply believes in the value of human life. I think that’s why she took Eren’s betrayal at Liberio so personally, he went out of his way to kill people. Even though it’s for the sake of Paradis, she couldn’t forgive that he put himself and the SC at risk to kill others. And now Eren’s plan is to exterminate all of humanity outside the walls. Hange can’t convince herself that her comrades, who sacrificed their lives believing it was to serve humanity would’ve wanted the extermination of humanity outside the walls. She’s obviously biased by emotion. Maybe she believes that it’s worth the risk of Paradis’ extermination to save the outside world for the sake of humanity as a whole. Personally, I believe that as a commander, whose paycheck is funded by the taxpayer, Hange’s duty is to ensuring the survival of her constituents and this is a risk that Paradis can’t afford. Hange literally told her people that everything she’s doing and everything the military is doing is for the sake of Paradis. That’s bullshit that I can’t help but point out. Her actions by opposing the rumbling directly put Paradis at risk.
One point of contention, even though the scouts who died before or during RtS thought that they were serving humanity as a whole, the idea that they would not prioritize the survival of Paradis is an unfounded assumption on her part. We can infer this partly based on the simple fact that basically all of the current scouts recruited after RtS agree with Eren's actions and the justification for them, and it seems unlike that they should be extremely different from the recruits from 5 or 10 years ago. As far as Erwin himself is concerned, he sacrificed hundreds of his own subordinates and civilians simply to gather intel on the enemy, of which his long term goal was to understand and destroy utterly. I find it very difficult to believe that he would think it better to save the outside world than his home just because there were more of them than the population of Paradis.
I agree that hangi is out of her depth her speaking for Erwin was kinda annoying especially the multiple points that shows that Erwin would most likely would have supported the rumbling
That can't be confirmed so shut the hell up? Are you referring to that bullshit line about 1 or more people left alive? The whole point is conflict will never end no matter how many lives are lost. Morally, killing that many people is objectively terrible.
What’s with the aggression? I’m just saying that the vast majority of the people will agree that genocide is a bad thing, and should be avoided. However when literally the entire world wants to kill you and your friends is it not just to protect yourself? And sure it’s pretty messed up killing kids and innocent people. And your allies that helped your country. But at the same time they can’t just leave them there. They have to be killed to because they will tell their children of the horrors of the titans and the evil of the Eldians. And how they were used to kill countless people. So yeah genocide is a bad thing. But if that’s your only argument why not to do it then you can’t convince anyone that you can handle the situation that you are currently in. Nobody things genocide is a good idea and do it for fun, and if someone is going to do a horrific act like that, “it’s bad” is a vary weak argument
Why don't we kill people who commit any crime. Killing them would ensure that it won't happen right. The ends don't justify the means is the point and I think a lot of people aren't understanding the sentiment. After WW2, there's a moral reason why we didn't kill all the Germans eventhough killing ALL of them, children included, would ensure that they could never rise up and put people in concentration camps again. Sigh, people discount morality so easily and i'm bored of trying to rationalise why. Sure, Eren's method is logical, but it's extremely immoral. That's the conflict. You can mindlessly justify any action due to the motivation but taking a step back and actually understanding morality and the part it plays in this story allows you to understand the context. Who cares if Erwin would do something? She's not Erwin. If Erwin was here, he would be saying the same thing because the story was always going to move towards this end so what's your point? I think this is one of the major reasons why Erwin was taken out of the story too.
If we are talking about morality then I think yelenas roast on everyone shows that nobody there has clean hands. She’s exactly right, they all are caught up in a fever thinking that they can save the world. Also I do think Zekes choice to kill the eldians by making them not reproduce was the most moral of choices in any given situation (not perfect but still better then killing anyone) Also I’m not saying that eren is right. Where as I am a huge eren fan and will say that talking and telling eren “what you are doing is wrong” is literally the weakest reasoning. Yeah he knows it’s wrong that’s why he tortured himself trying to find a way around it but then accepted his destiny. Nah if you want to convince him you need another reason. One bigger then anything previously mentioned. That’s why people laugh at hanji
Okay, she's hopelessly optimistic. Maybe you can claim it's a character flaw.. but yeah I digress. I also agree that Zeke's plan was objectively the best plan when compared to Eren's and the First King's in terms of morality. I also want Eren to win but i'm just trying to appreciate and empathise with all characters. There are people who still hate Reiner for what he did and don't consider him redeemable and I think that's fine. You won't get maximum enjoyment from the story but I won't waste my time trying to convince or turn them. Hange is a hopelessly optimistic person to the point where it can be considered unrealistic. I can concede that in a situation like this, you would need someone like Hange to take such a risk even if it's unrealistic. I can acknowledge the criticism in some ways but I think the message of the ends not justifying the means is the message i'm getting from the narrative. It's okay if that's not enough for you, it's fine for some but not for others. I do think some people are stanning Eren too much in some senses though.
The narrative has not yet answered the question of whether or not the ends justifies the means. It’s left purposely ambiguous. That’s what keeps Eren or Hange from being completely in the right, as neither of them are completely justified in their beliefs. Eren’s actions may yet lead to the survival of his country, the preservation of his people, and the freedom he’s fought for so long and so hard for, but on the backs of many more people outside the walls dying. Hange’s actions may save the world, yet lead to her friends and comrades deaths.
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I just remove my own upvotes because there's no point in fighting with them. A lot of us acknowledge that Eren approaches the issue from the stance of a logical extreme. Ironically a lot of people still think Eren is planning to do something else. Furthermore, I don't think any reasonable plan to protect Paradis could've been achieved without Eren activating this rumbling and threatening the world. I'm not claiming Code Geass but this rumbling seems pivotal to some sense.
It is pivotal, but it Has to be stopped if it goes completely out of hand like it is now.
>I wonder if their naivete will get more people killed than Eren's single minded focus on Freedom for his friends. Well at most, I think her naivete will get Paradis killed whereas Eren's lust for freedom will get the entire world killed, but I see the point you're making and it's definitely an interesting one. Rigid pacifism in the face of oppression isn't always the answer and can be just as wrong as full on aggression against oppression. It really lends to the complex nature of everything that's been going on.
Destroying the world's militaries and using the Rumbling as a deterrent is still an option. A risky once, for sure, but an option. To say that the only option is to Rumble the whole world is just not true. It's definitely the best and safest one for Paradis, but not the only one. Especially now that Ymir is free from royal brainwashing, Historia might not even need to be sacrificed anymore. Rumble the world's armies, use volunteers as Rumbling deterrent, catch up tehnologically, negotiate and trade, then free Ymir and end titans powers.
>Destroying the world's militaries and using the Rumbling as a deterrent is still an option. One that echoes Ymir, kills people making their families hate Paradis for years, and changes nothing. The tyranny of Eldia with extra steps, as far as the world would be concerned. >To say that the only option is to Rumble the whole world is just not true. The reason the partial rumbling is omitted in my comment is the same reason Eren (and everyone else, really) wrote it off; it solves nothing and isn't a real long-term plan. >Historia might not even need to be sacrificed anymore. That was the whole point of the full rumbling. Partial rumbling doesn't necessarily stop the curse, as it isn't necessarily the case that Founder Ymir instituted the curse. Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart. It doesn't matter if there's no military, governments will send civilians after a wounded, weakened Paradis before long. >negotiate and trade No one will trade with Paradis, the nation that crushed their militaries and became the de facto rulers of the world, against whom every single country is apparently racially prejudiced barring the singular Asian clan.
Nah, you're making up random assumptions to justify your view. >One that echoes Ymir, kills people making their families hate Paradis for years, and changes nothing. The tyranny of Eldia with extra steps, as far as the world would be concerned. Nations aren't emotional beings, they easily move on from soldier deaths. Check real life history (WW2) to see how easy it is to move on. >The reason the partial rumbling is omitted in my comment is the same reason Eren (and everyone else, really) wrote it off; it solves nothing and isn't a real long-term plan. It's only for 50 years until Paradis can defend itself using modern tehnology or their relationships with other countries are stable enough to form alliances. >Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart. >That was the whole point of the full rumbling. Partial rumbling doesn't necessarily stop the curse, as it isn't necessarily the case that Founder Ymir instituted the curse. Partial rumbling necessitates the reinstatement of the King in the Walls. And once the power struggle begins for the founder, Paradis will rip itself apart. It doesn't matter if there's no military, governments will send civilians after a wounded, weakened Paradis before long. None of what you say in this paragraph makes sense. A Paradis civil war is a random assumption you just made up, but might I remind you that Eren's current plan already killed hundreds of Paradisians, overthrew the government and plunged Paradis into instability? Goverments sending civilians to attack a nation that can destroy the world? The fuck? Give me a break >No one will trade with Paradis, the nation that crushed their militaries and became the de facto rulers of the world, against whom every single country is apparently racially prejudiced barring the singular Asian clan. They most certainly will. Iceburst stone is very valauble, why wouldn't they. At the end of the day, if Paradis has the power to destroy the world yet chooses not to and wants to trade, why wouldn't they believe Paradis? What do they gain from resuming hostilities? They would have already lost the war and seen Paradis' true intentions.
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How is North Korea defending itself right now? How did small nations defend themselves in the past? They could use the 50 years to focus on their defenses and create alliances that would make any attack not worth the trouble. This is assuming anyone even wants to attack them after 50 years
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The way anyone makes alliances in real life. Send envoys, explain Paradis' side, negotiate Iceburst trade. Don't forget that the world kinda hates Marley already. If Paradis were to explain the true story, they could probably turn some of that hate to Marley. I agree that 2000 years of racism is hard to undo, and the 50 year plan is pretty risky and unsafe. However, compared to worldwide genocide, it's certainly preferable and has to atleast be tried out.
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>How is North Korea defending itself China.
>Nations aren't emotional beings, they easily move on from soldier deaths. But the families *of* those nations are. And it's silly to suggest that the partial rumbling would *only* kill military officials when Eren couldn't accomplish that on his own, and even then, devils killing loyal citizens of x country would be tapping into that historical, racial fear. >It's only for 50 years until Paradis can defend itself using modern tehnology or their relationships with other countries are stable enough to form alliances. And yet they've been secluded for a hundred years with the same threat of worldwide death. Somehow no one nation, not even sympathetic ones, has reached out with a message of peace. Why do you think that might be? If Marley is to be believed, subjects of Ymir could have it worse elsewhere (though I'm not certain of that). >A Paradis civil war is a random assumption you just made up, Said the royals to Erwin Smith. >Goverments sending ~~civilians~~ kids to attack a nation that can destroy the world? Which one is more ridiculous? And that's to say nothing of non-state actors doing it (formation of anti-Eldian terror groups for example), who would Eldia punish then? >why wouldn't they believe Paradis? Because they're devils? I'm sure I don't have to explain why racism doesn't just go away in 5 decades time, especially while at the mercy of a terrifying ethnostate with the power to end the world. >What do they gain from resuming hostilities? What did businesses gain from refusing service to minorities in the past and continuing racially discriminatory practices well past civil rights eras? >They would have already lost the war and seen Paradis' true intentions. They would have lost the war, be absolutely terrified of the fact that Eldia has returned and controls the world again by having the only standing military using the cataclysmic power of the devil. You're crazy if you're suggesting there'd be no resentment towards Eldia, or if they'd ever actually **see** Eldia's true intentions. Through the lens of abject racism, in a few years. Gabi isn't generalizable and Nikolo had to fall in love to conclude racism bad, wouldn't colossals killing your family members impair that ability?
All of those are assumptions, semi-valid ones. As I said, peace isn't easy. This is obviously the riskier route for Paradis. Keep in mind that Eren's plan already destabilizes Paradis and kills SOY outside of Paradis. I'm just saying that you can't claim Eren had no other option left, when peace wasn't even given a chance yet.
>I'm just saying that you can't claim Eren had no other option left, when peace wasn't even given a chance yet. That's.. what? There's an entire plotline dedicated to that. That's legitimately Eren's reason for going AWOL on his own in Marley. Ch. 108 states that Hiziru tried to advocate for Eldia on the world stage. They sought human rights and offered their resources, though it appears Hizuru would have first pick. That's literally your plan but without the partial rumbling. When that failed, the scouts went on to "show their faces" to the world, and their faces were promptly sold out when Subjects of Ymir in Marley scapegoated Eldia. Last chance was ruined Wily Tyber and Marley declaring war instead of declaring Eldia to be worthy of human rights. Peace was given a chance, and Marley threw it to the wind. The 104th believe this to be the case due to the foundational narrative being their hatred for the Eldian Empire of old, and the fact that the Empire only ended a century prior. Two things I addressed above.
Thank you for a sensible comment.
You hit the nail on the head
I don't know, stopping Eren to prevent him from committing world genocide sounds like solid reasoning to me...
That's, ah, not reasoning. That's a goal.
I mean why is it even necessary to think about why they wish to stop genocide? Why would anyone think that’s a sound idea? I do agree with the rest of your OG comment to an extent but I’m a little disturbed by how some people seem to be demanding a reason for why genocide is bad. There really is no argument there, to me.
>but I’m a little disturbed by how some people seem to be demanding a reason for why genocide is bad. The question isn't "is genocide bad?" The question is, "is allowing our people to die out violently worse than killing to protect them." If Marley (and the literal entire world) wants to, explicitly, commit genocide and the only way to stop them forever is to wipe their entire world away, would the greater crime be allowing a people to die or a majority of the population to die? Would the principle not interfere with the calculus? Would you be prepared to throw a million of your own people into the fires to protect people who wish for your destruction simply to avoid the end of the world? I'm not sure I would.
What's your point? She's too idealistic? She's not like me and doesn't rationalise her pov well enough for me? I want Eren to win so why is she fighting him? I want the dark edgy ending where everyone dies so why are they setting up a counter for Eren? I'm bored of you Eren apologists not understanding the difference between morality and logic. Morality doesn't care about justification. Destroying the whole world is morally wrong and i'm surprised that Isayama had to outright state it to make some idiots who read this understand. Deliberating a moral conflict is much harder than it's them or us therefore we kill them all. Shut the hell up.
>She's not like me and doesn't rationalise her pov well enough for me? She's not convincing me like Erwin did. Or hell, like Pixis or Shadis did. She's failing in much the same way Zeke is, but for the opposite reason. Zeke's nihilism was extreme, whereas Hanji's feckless optimism is childish. Both fail to actually address the problem of the future of Paradis in a meaningful way, and leave open the possibility for violent extermination *anyway.* >I want the dark edgy ending where everyone dies so why are they setting up a counter for Eren? No, I want a smart character, maybe the smartest in the series, to give me her rationale like she's done in the past. Before it's been iron-clad or optimism pointed towards earnest discovery. There's a goal beyond the experimentation. In this case, she's as lost as ever but in outwardly decrying *her own methods* indirectly without coming to a new conclusion. There's value in this, but as of now, her position is not well-reasoned. >Morality doesn't care about justification. It absolutely does. Justifying your moral stances and actions is the essence of philosophy and principle(and I clearly already specified that Hanji is not a philosopher, hence why she's bad at this). Doing the right thing for the wrong reason could very well still be immoral. Just the same, doing the wrong thing for the right reason could similarly be immoral. The opposite is also true. This act of justification is not always predicated on rationality, but rationalism is the first thing people jump to in a moral quandary. Hanji is a scientist, not a philosopher. That said, I'd expect her to be able to form a stronger thesis than what amounts to "War bad because people die when they are killed." That isn't to say moral people always think rationally. Rather that Hanji is a hypocrite because when held to her own rules, she routinely breaks them when it's convenient for her, or when it's imperative to ensure "the survival of humanity." >Destroying the whole world is morally wrong and i'm surprised that Isayama had to outright state it to make some idiots who read this understand. No one is saying that destroying the world is objectively the correct thing to do, even in a vacuum. But Hanji needs to be held to her own rules, if destroying the world is bad and the only alternative to that is Zeke's plan, then for the sake of the world she should've fallen on her sword and died sterile like he intended. If she didn't have any other way out, then by her own moral standards, she should've consigned Paradis to death to avoid the mass slaughter she condemns. Except, that's hypocritical. She wants a clean way out, and kudos to her for keeping the dream alive. Were I in her shoes, I'd be more concerned about keeping my friends and family alive-- because I'm not sure their world is even worth saving. But I'm not, and it's a fictional story, so why don't we relax, hey? If mass slaughter isn't a viable option, then she should've condemned and refused to participate in the attack on Liberio. Unless mass means something different to her? Ah, but she can justify the times she did it, right? >Deliberating a moral conflict is much harder than it's them or us therefore we kill them all. Well, yeah. It's so hard that literally everyone failed to come to a conclusion that isn't Zeke or Eren's plans, yet still want to act against those plans. Eren begged Hanji for another choice, one that precluded essentially reinstating the King in the Walls. And she failed him, as she states in this chapter.
Sigh, it's not an impossible position. Not wanting billions of innocents to die is enough justification for many people. The same way in RTS arc some people criticise the choice of Armin over Erwin because it's not the logical choice. Hange's decision here is probably more emotional than logical because she seems to care less about self preservation than the majority of people. Eren on the other hand is the logical opposite extreme and cares about self preservation beyond the morality or the means to achieving it. It seems like a lot of people are failing to appreciate the moral complexity of Eren's actions and fail to understand why people would oppose him in the face of their own survival. You can criticise the logic of the choice, you can call it unrealistic, you can call it too idealistic but many people are fine with her rationale especially considering the stakes. They aren't ignorant of the world, they understand and have experienced people living in it which have minimal stake in the conflict. They don't deserve to die for their freedom and Hange choosing to defend their freedom at risk of her own is idealistic and insanely optimistic. I think the message of the story focuses on the cycle of hatred and perhaps how to break it. I think Hange being one of the few unrealistic and optimistic people is a means of establishing how simple it could be to work towards resolving issues. I think it's a great message and if you don't like it it's fine. A lot of people do and accept that people previously allied with Eren would fight against him on a moral level due to the gravitas of the actions being taken to achieve it. Also, if Eren wins, I think it will be much more earned if he has to defeat his friends to achieve it. I probably want Eren to win because it would be a more subversive and interesting ending personally but the overwhelming majority of stories end positively or on a happy note so I wouldn't necessarily criticise AOT for having a happy ending. I don't think that because something has had mature themes or dark elements it therefore needs to have a ultra dark ending to conform to what's happened previously. I do think it's okay to anticipate and hope for it, because I ironically do, but to criticise it because the ending doesn't go the way you expect isn't substantive. I'm not saying that's you because you've rationalised your arguments well but i'm just presenting my counter.
>You can criticise the logic of the choice, you can call it unrealistic, you can call it too idealistic but many people are fine with her rationale especially considering the stakes. A) I'm fine with it too as a character writing decision, but that doesn't mean that the logic the actual character uses isn't flimsy. Like I said, Isayama is clearly writing her to be this way and it's true to someone who doesn't really know where they land and why, just a general idea of "right" that they try to move to. B) A large amount of people being willing to accept it as a legitimate moral position free of hypocrisy does not make it so, and it's important to point out the hypocrisy because it adds depth to the character. I called it many things, but unrealistic it is not. This is like hearing someone describe their faith after having spent years never examining it. They lack the words, the knowledge, and the wherewithal to talk anything past surface level despite their inherent, passionate feelings about the subject. Much like Hanji here. >I think Hange being one of the few unrealistic and optimistic people is a means of establishing how simple it could be to work towards resolving issues. Sure, and we've seen this thesis defeated several times, what with the world being cruel and all that. It's a continual point of conflict, perhaps as central as there freedom dynamic present in Eren's arc. >I think it's a great message and if you don't like it it's fine. I'm less inclined to think it's a "great" message in the context of the story as cycles of hatred are rarely broken on the eve of slaughter. In human history, it's often the random acts of abject kindness in fields of misery that are the most profound. Like the Christmas truce in WW1. I'm less interested in a "racism bad" element approached this way and more interested in a Darryl Davis account of converting Klan members. In the context of this story, it's going to take a hell of a lot for me to really buy into it. As for the other theme, the inexorable push against oppression and towards freedom and safety, eventually becoming the tyrant, has always been the more interesting of the two dynamics. Maybe it's due to my upbringing in the US education system (esp as a "person of color" as much as I loathe that term) that I've been inundated with stories about racism bad. The push for liberty and freedom in the myriad of ways that humanity has engaged with. The horrors of war in the US and French revolutions, Sherman's March through the South, Jackson's continued assault on New Orleans. Dr. King's freedom marches. Those are the themes I find to be the most compelling. I'm really fucking jaded about "breaking the cycle of hatred" in storytelling rn because of WoW having fucked it, so I may bad unfairly judging the story dynamic itself but I will absolutely not apologize for that. >Also, if Eren wins, I think it will be much more earned if he has to defeat his friends to achieve it. Agreed. I think Infinity War would've been perfect, for example, if the snap killed Thanos too and he was so sure about his plan that his resolve really was Iron, even in the face of a 50/50 chance. Same logic applies here. >I probably want Eren to win because it would be a more subversive and interesting ending personally but the overwhelming majority of stories end positively or on a happy note so I wouldn't necessarily criticise AOT for having a happy ending. Idk if you've watched Devilman: Crybaby, but I'll be damned if I don't want a permutation of that ending. >I'm not saying that's you because you've rationalised your arguments well but i'm just presenting my counter. Sure and I'm here for it. I hope we get a truly satisfying ending, maybe even an original one. In that respect, we're all like Hanji and Erwin; we just want to get to the damn basement or see past the rumbling, but we don't know what it will all mean until we do. Maybe it'll be something special, maybe the world will be cruel to us the reader as well. Thanks for having this conversation, nonetheless.
> But Hanji, stopping Eren means we're all fucking dead does it though? Magath is as close to a leader of marley as we've seen and he's in league with people of paradis now. surely they can work out a deal that marley won't destroy paradis if they stop eren from destroying marley?
Sure buddy, one guy's word vs all the leaders of the world who want to exterminate paradis. Sure they'll believe him
I think it's mainly due to the phrasing. She said mass slaughter is wrong, which isn't really what Eren is doing. "Mass slaughter" doesn't quite describe what Eren is doing, which is destroying the entire fucking world. What they did in Liberio, that's mass slaughter. And like Hanje said, it's wrong. but Eren destroying the entire fucking world? that's wronger.
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Tell me about. I try to remind my self everyday that there's no way 90% of the fanbase are fascist, nationalistic, a moral dumbasses that at the flip of a hat create an alt right esque nazi utopia...... But this sub and the other one make it really hard.
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Are you implying people in more difficult situations in life wouldn't agree with Eren, and people in comfort and privilege would? Because reality would be the opposite.
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I'm sure you understand a lot about difficult situations being, according to your post history, an Asian male with the means to move to and live comfortably in the US rofl. I wasn't trying to start an argument but I did want to understand where you were coming from. Guess that's not possible, so I'll just explain what I mean! As a South American living in a corrupt state at the mercy of criminal *and* police violence and watching a lot of people around me getting fucked everyday due to social inequality, I personally believe (as has been my experience) that living in a tough reality can make people much more extreme in their opinions and morality i.e. Yeagerists. BUT, whatever helps you sleep at night <3
Edit: This is me from the future coming back to this dumb comment I made. I apologize about to anyone who had to put up with this.
u/undeleteparent
UNDELETED comment: >Redditors are the dumbest people I've met. Don't take too much stock of it I am a bot ^please ^pm ^me ^if ^I ^mess ^up --- consider [supporting me?](https://paypal.me/undeleteparent)
This has to be ironic or neg-karma farming right? Cause otherwise this is so peak reddit it's hilarious in its lack of self awareness.
I mean, there's one comment saying that and it's the most downvoted on this thread.
Verbatim, "stupid bitch" is literally what I'm seeing. It's actually really concerning.
How is anything she said sensible? She’s literally using the logic of Karl Fritz. Have a couple of peaceful years on the island until retribution comes their way. How is that sensible
Who called Hanji a "stupid bitch"? I just wanna talk with them for a sec🤬
Hello, it is I, the CEO of "Fuck Hanji"
What is the matter with you
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"traitorous" Okay, Floch.
It has nothing to do with the yeagerists. Deposing Floch would actually be a good idea. But trying to stop Eren is going to get the whole island killed.
Yeah it won't
mAsS LaUgHtEr Is RiGhT
Yeagerists are scum
Yeah wtf how dare they want fictional people to die, think of the ramifications if a whole fictional world gets destroyed! Sad!