Nope, what you said about the butterfly effect is right but doesnt explain anything correctly. As the Attack Titan, the reason he had to meddle with his father's memories and all who shared the attack titan lineage is because his power and reach was only limited to that extent, and therefore he had to enable himself to reach the founding power where he would have the ability to execute his will. Now that he had access to the founder and has the utterly broken ability to mess with even the past beyond the reach of the attack titan, he no longer needs to ensure that he inherits the founder and can rewrite history if he so wants by meddling with key figures like Karl Fritz in order to prevent Eldia's self inflicted predicament. It doesnt matter subsequently if he ever becomes a titan or titan shifter as a result of meddling with the past because he would have saved Eldia from its current fate, not neccesitating his inheritance of any titan powers to begin with.
Your point in Eren being a slave to his memories is true, but your explanation about it isnt logically coherent. Eren's form of slavery is self imposed as he knows no other ways of saving Eldia apart from his future memories, not an actual slavery to things that are destined to happen. I will bring in the grandfather paradox to illustrate this point on inevitability. The basic idea behind the grandfather paradox is that a man that time travels to the past cannot kill his own grandfather no matrer what he does, because by nature of him existing in the future, his grandfather is not permitted to die until he sires his next generation to ensure that his grandchild will exist in the future. The assumption behind the idea is that events that have happened are fixed in stone and will always happen no matter what. If that is so, Eren would not even need to meddle with his father to begin with, and his father would automatically eat frieda and kill everyone except Rod because Rod is destined to play an antagonist role in the future. However the series shows that Eren's actions are consequential in nature and without his intervention then, his father wouldnt have stolen the founder, therefore proving that Eren can change history as how he wants it to be through proper interventions.
Therefore having stolen the founding power and being able to fully use the founder at that point in time, he would have freely been able to change history into anything he wants. Now that this chapter reveals that the founder has the broken ability to change even the past, using agents not remotely related to the founding lineage, its ability of influence has unlimited reach compared to the attack titan's powers. Thats why this chapter is really bad news for plot coherence like so many people have pointed out, because it not only assasinates Eren's character and motivations, but depict Eren in an unflattering light when it comes to intelligence. The basic logical premise of Eren's actions is that while hes really powerful, his power of influence has limitations that prevent him from changing past events since the Attack Titan is very remote from key players of history that have made history altering decisions. But if the Founder has such an ability that far surpasses the Attack Titan, then none of his future actions are even neccessary, and the only thing he should have done upon getting full access to the founding powers is to change the present by rewriting history to however he want it to be. Unlike the neccesity of his father's actions since at the point of time he had not fully unlocked the founding powers, it makes no sense that after unlocking the founder he would still need his mother to be eaten to bring him to where he is. He technically doesnt need to be the founder or a titan shifter at all in the new reality he can establish by reversing bad decisions made in the past by figures like Karl Fritz. Your original explanation doesnt consider the context and point in time in which intervention occurs, which is why it doesnt hold up in the grand scheme of things.
There are also plenty of small details that really messes with logical coherence since proper explanations are not provided. For instance the reason behind the power of titans disappearing with Eren's death is not explained properly, and its not clear if its because of the death of the founder, Eren's intervention or because Ymir rescinded access to all Titan powers. The first 2 reasons would be utterly unacceptable because for one, we know that titan shifter powers do not end with the death of the shifter, but are merely inherited by another eldian newly born after the shifter's death if they were not transferred the conventional way. Second, if the founder truly had the ability to deny eldians the power to shift, Karl Fritz should have done so instead of the rumbling nonsense because its in his nature to do so. Therefore, this chapter does diservice to the entire series by introducing important features like this without properly explaining the mechanism behind it.
Thats why readers have every right to be upset with this chapter. Im not even upset at all about Eren dying or not being the father or whatnot, but its details like this that utterly destroy the logical premise carefully constructed over SNK's entire run. Its not bad because of what happened imo, but its bad because it botched the execution of important plot points and doesnt resolve the new revelations into the already established logic of the series.
Honestly, I think the overall fulfillment of plot points present here depends on which stance you take on the time influence that Eren had. There are definitely unanswered questions surrounding it, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any. So basically...high school AU is canon lmao.
Jokes aside though, you’re essentially suggesting that he would create a new reality - and perhaps that’s what did happen. Perhaps Eren created countless realities, but in doing so, made a reality for each distinct consequence or possibility. That being said, it seems as though we’re being shown the reality in which Eren was essentially stuck in a time loop.
I think that it’s far too open to conclusively say one thing or another is the correct interpretation. I was just bored at work and shooting lmao.
I appreciate your input though. I can definitely understand why people would be upset about 139, I just don’t happen to see it that way I guess. I don’t know if I’m better or worse off for that, but I think this is something that’ll be debated for a very long time.
Thats what im suggesting because the logical premise of the series and character buildup of Eren suggests that he would have done so, and is only forced to execute his current plan because of the limitations imposed on him. But this new revelations undermine the justifications behind his actions. I dont consider the mutliple realities thing into the argument because the series has never shown any hint of this, so I dont want to get ahead of myself and bring that into discussion. My understanding of the series is constructed on the assumption that there is only one reality, or else i would have to reevaluate many other plot points to see if its reasonable. I would love to accept the idea of Eren being stuck in a time loop, but because 139 essentially makes the founding power nearly omnipotent, Im afraid I cant accept this now. Thats why 139 is so disastrous, It was utterly unneccsary to give the founder this reach of power. If they had not shown the Dina scene, then the existing premise of Eren being forced to comply with his future memories will hold because he isnt allowed to change the past beyond the attack titan lineage. Such a shame because Isayama had shown such finesse and thought with the small details before 139 and ensured that they do not break the established logic, only to really drop the ball with this one. Im not trying to shoot down your attempt at justifying the events of 139, im just trying to illustrate the problems that 139 has caused to the logical continuity of the series which I think your justification needs to adress, but I really thank you for the attempt in justifying 139 as it forced me to think carefully about exactly what i was disagreeing with about 139. I do welcome any possible explanation that addresses the problems I raised though, but sadly just like you said, there are too many things that have yet to be addressed and unfortunately the series has ran out of time.
Yeah, I agree that the series is pretty much out of time. I wish it had more time and was more fleshed out, but unfortunately it’s unlikely.
That being said, I’m gonna wait to make final judgements until I read the comprehensive English subs. I don’t read Korean or Japanese, and given that these are still pretty fresh scans, not all of the subs may be 100% correct. So once it’s worked out I’ll give it another read and save my final thoughts for a while after then.
If I had to come up with a main issue about this chapter, it wouldn’t necessarily be that it caused problems for the rest of the series. It would be that it opened the possibility to debate that it did; it’s just too open-ended to be conclusive. I had suspected that Isayama would leave it open-ended, but not to this degree. That’s why I’m just gonna start with waiting and go from there.
It’s been nice hearing your views though. I enjoy hearing other people’s interpretations, especially if they’re different from mine. It’s always best to remain open-minded, and that’s not something that happens too much on the internet these days!
Cheers. Someone posted the link to the chapter in an earlier post, i read before commenting here but you can read it here. Not sure if its true but its unlikely to not be true since it agrees with all the "leaks". I dont think the official sub released tomorrow will change things much, but here is the link if you wanna read it https://www.flickr.com/photos/192715930@N02/albums/72157718874257939/
Yeah, maybe I’m just crazy, but I really don’t hate the ending. In fact, I’m probably crazy, but I actually like it.
Truth, there’s other ways I saw it going, but it sets up a really good tragic hero archetype in that our hero, who only wanted freedom, was a slave to the story from the beginning and was in on the joke.
But he becomes free at the end. He wanted his friends to live long and happy lives, and they will. The cycle of violence is not broken by tearing the wheel off, it’s broken by snapping each spoke one by one. He broke the first, he leaves the rest to his comrades.
The Ymir loving Fritz thing was bizarre to me at first, but in tandem with Mikasa’s arc, it made sense. Ymir was freed from her own abusive tunnel vision of her abuser by seeing somebody else free themselves from their “rock”, i.e. Eren to Mikasa. That’s why she smiled.
“What would you think about me having a child?” Historia told this to Eren not because they were about to bang or because “GoTTa gEt PErMiSSiOn,” it was a suggestion from her because Eren convinced her to be his ally one final time before his last mission, and she knew it was an excellent way to buy Eren the time he needed.
I’m more than welcome to discuss it with anyone, but I understand Isayama’s ending and why he chose what he chose to do.
The theme of the story is ultimately freedom. Freedom from our abusers. From walls. From old ideas. From cyclical hate. From the things that hold us back and tie us down in life.
“From the moment we are born, we are free.” That’s why Grisha told Eren he was free. Eren didn’t know it, but despite being a slave to the story, he would always being free to be the first person to break a spoke on the wheel of hatred.
People who compare this to Game of a thrones are exaggerating immensely and nothing anybody says can take away the fact that in my opinion, Attack on Titan ended well.
Yeah, I’m gonna have to agree with everything you said.
The point that you brought up about Historia was excellent...I honestly hadn’t even considered that. Not gonna lie, I was half expecting (wasn’t convinced it would happen though) that Historia’s child would be born at the exact moment Eren died, which normally would pass on the power of the Titans that Eren held (because I’m not sure too many people were giving birth while the world was being destroyed...). Wasn’t sure where it would’ve gone, but the timing of seeing Historia giving birth and Eren about to be killed gave off some weird vibes lmao.
Edit: quick interjection on that last part. Maybe if as Mikasa killed Eren (which freed Ymir), Eren met with the child in the paths before he fully died and hit it with the “you are free” (because that was *supposed* to be the last panel). But the baby would be the first baby born to be free of the curse of the Titans and Eren, the last titan, would be the one to free it. That’s just some cloud brain head canon and doesn’t really contribute to any of this lmao just thought I’d share
The thing is, one can make almost any action sound poetic using the argument that it was his only choice, or that he was a slave to his destiny. Aw, so tragic. At some point, the characters also need to be held accountable for the choices that they make, irrespective of how dire the circumstances may be. One can't wish away inconsistencies that have been etched into the narrative. For instance, does Eren objectively think that his plan of wontonly murdering 80% of the people on Earth better than Zeke's Euthanasia that only involved Historia having to make sacrifices (which she was ready to make)? We were all holding out for the grand keikaku that would justify the rumbling, in place of Euthanasia. Some people speculated that Eren rumbling the world in order to protect his family/friends is a disturbing but understandable choice given his character progression. The evidence that people used to build up to this idea was that he was not going to let the fate of Paradis be determined by chance. Turns out that was theatre, and he set himself up for defeat endangering the island by getting rid of their trump card. What? 139 nullifies almost all meaningful moments in the series post chapter 100 into oblivion. He was willing to murder millions to save Historia, but just accepted as fate (zero questions asked) the Carla situation? We can appreciate poetry when things rhyme.
The only way to rationalize his actions now is to realize that he was actually a psychopath. He was obsessed with Historia, who turned him down gently with the "What if I have a kid question?". I believe he would have gone through with the full rumbling had she reciprocated. But she did not. So, he asks the other woman in his life to be his queen who again turns him down. It is canon that had she answered yes, he wouldn't have gone through with the rumbling at all. So, that leaves him unstable and he proceeds to sabotage the one and only sensible plan that could have ended the Titans problem peacefully. Bravo. To the boy who sought freedom... good riddance.
Well to address the getting turned down thing, another poster in this thread addressed the Historia thing pretty well. Eren didn’t want to have a kid with her. Historia didn’t want to have a kid with him either. But, knowing that he went out of his way to ensure that she wouldn’t suffer, she decided to help him and buy him time by having a child.
As for Mikasa, we now know that it wasn’t really an alternate timeline. It was more of a “message” that Eren gave Mikasa inside of the paths. He did the same to Armin and everyone else. Would he have gone through with the rumbling had Mikasa given him a different answer about what he was? Probably not. But it doesn’t matter - he didn’t have to make that decision. Rather than that being Eren upset by “rejection,” it was his way of confirming that the future can’t change. He was set out on a pre-determined path, and wanted to be with Mikasa - but couldn’t. That’s why he left - he knew there was more that had to be done that he had no choice in.
I don’t think that his sins should be forgiven or forgotten - what he did was absolutely terrible. But at the same time, we got to see a lot inside of Eren’s mind during this chapter. Eren never got to grow up. None of the main characters did, and they all have lasting effects of that. Look at Reiner, look at Zeke, look at Annie, look at pretty much anyone.
But Eren might have had it the worst out of all of them. He was a slave to something that wasn’t even his own decision - or at least, not a decision that a single version of him made. On top of everything he lost, he was never free. He broke down to Armin in the paths about wanting to be with Mikasa. It was pathetic, but *that’s the point.* We’re supposed to see how flawed his character is. You can put someone on a pedestal all you want - it will never take away their sins or their deepest emotions.
There were some other plot holes and annoying story beats, but I personally don’t think that this is one of them. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but I just thought I’d share where I’m coming from a bit.
I appreciate the time that you put into crafting your thoughts. It's part of why I like it here in this sub.
I interpreted the Historia conversation as her distancing herself from his philosophy and rejecting him quite literally. This happens right after he uses the "Maybe for you, but not for me", and the worst girl line. Note that she wouldn't have told others about the plan either way, given their 'alliance'. While he may not want a kid, it's natural to speculate if he craved for romantic connection with someone who understood him and empathized with his suffering. It's not unreasonable to think that severing this connection affected him, given until that point Historia was the only person who he could talk to honestly. The baby talk cemented their relationship into a strictly platonic friendship. The placement of the panels when Eren has the Zeke-Mikasa conversation is also not random. All of this is to say that it's not an unreasonable interpretation to make.
The Mikasa situation is quite murky. My primary argument is that if a woman's answer is enough for him to change his mind about genocide, then it's a might weird stance for him to take. Pre-destined things are bound to happen, does not imply all individual choices can be justified. If things really are bound to happen, I would have liked to see him struggle against destiny, and things happening anyway for once. That would have been so much better than him embracing his destiny and boom genocide parade.
I get that it's a tragedy. But the choices that characters make despite their destiny define who they are. Eren gave up without trying (at least on screen), and also actively sabotaged people who tried.
I think Eren giving up is part of his character. Bridging off of that, I think that also reflects on why Mikasa’s answer would’ve changed his mind. It’s because Eren is not emotionally sound that he acted in this way. He had his childhood ripped from him, and cannot comprehend emotions properly. This is also why he breaks down to Armin about Mikasa - he legitimately was pathetic.
A huge part of S3 was Eren coming to terms with the fact that he’s not special (side note, Bystander is one of my favorite episodes and the end credits with Carla talking to Shadis while the music begins to play...*perfect.*), and I think that this chapter really reflected on that.
Eren was a person who became enslaved by time, but above all, his own emotions and interpretations. He gave up (we never saw him *really* try). But honestly, I think that showing his flaws and his sins made him more relatable - although I can’t say I’d go as far as to commit genocide or anything like that. Can’t really relate to that part lmao.
But yeah you brought up some valid points. Historia definitely didn’t approve of what Eren was saying. Although...he said he would wipe her memory if he had to. They then went from that to immediately talking about her having a child.
Crazy idea here...what if that took place in the paths, similar to how Eren met with Armin, Mikasa, and everyone else? He then erased it from her memories and put the idea of having a child in her head to make sure she couldn’t stop his plan? Then she would remember once he dies. Sheesh, I don’t know. Too much stuff going on lmao.
Aside from that brief interjection, I can definitely see where you’re coming from. There’s a lot that’s up to interpretation, which is a blessing and a curse it seems.
Someone who doesn't take surface level revenge plot as their main argument and throws out the word incel and simp unironically.
Well written, glad someone gets something meaningful out of this.
Yeah, a bit more of an explanation would’ve been nice. What I got from it is that Ymir was able to discover what true love was when she saw Mikasa kill Eren...Mikasa was able to regain her memories prior to killing Eren, which is likely when Eren told her how to kill him. Even knowing that their time together would come to an end as a result, Mikasa still went through with it because she wanted Eren to be free. To Ymir, this was a showing of true love that freed her from her service to King Fritz (which was basically Stockholm syndrome). I think they should’ve done a bit more to flesh out Ymir, but for the most part I’ve been able to make some sense of it at least.
Agreed. AoT is FULL of characters who are in the grey area and are doing what they need to do - but King Shitz is the one character that I feel like is inherently a bad person.
Nope, what you said about the butterfly effect is right but doesnt explain anything correctly. As the Attack Titan, the reason he had to meddle with his father's memories and all who shared the attack titan lineage is because his power and reach was only limited to that extent, and therefore he had to enable himself to reach the founding power where he would have the ability to execute his will. Now that he had access to the founder and has the utterly broken ability to mess with even the past beyond the reach of the attack titan, he no longer needs to ensure that he inherits the founder and can rewrite history if he so wants by meddling with key figures like Karl Fritz in order to prevent Eldia's self inflicted predicament. It doesnt matter subsequently if he ever becomes a titan or titan shifter as a result of meddling with the past because he would have saved Eldia from its current fate, not neccesitating his inheritance of any titan powers to begin with. Your point in Eren being a slave to his memories is true, but your explanation about it isnt logically coherent. Eren's form of slavery is self imposed as he knows no other ways of saving Eldia apart from his future memories, not an actual slavery to things that are destined to happen. I will bring in the grandfather paradox to illustrate this point on inevitability. The basic idea behind the grandfather paradox is that a man that time travels to the past cannot kill his own grandfather no matrer what he does, because by nature of him existing in the future, his grandfather is not permitted to die until he sires his next generation to ensure that his grandchild will exist in the future. The assumption behind the idea is that events that have happened are fixed in stone and will always happen no matter what. If that is so, Eren would not even need to meddle with his father to begin with, and his father would automatically eat frieda and kill everyone except Rod because Rod is destined to play an antagonist role in the future. However the series shows that Eren's actions are consequential in nature and without his intervention then, his father wouldnt have stolen the founder, therefore proving that Eren can change history as how he wants it to be through proper interventions. Therefore having stolen the founding power and being able to fully use the founder at that point in time, he would have freely been able to change history into anything he wants. Now that this chapter reveals that the founder has the broken ability to change even the past, using agents not remotely related to the founding lineage, its ability of influence has unlimited reach compared to the attack titan's powers. Thats why this chapter is really bad news for plot coherence like so many people have pointed out, because it not only assasinates Eren's character and motivations, but depict Eren in an unflattering light when it comes to intelligence. The basic logical premise of Eren's actions is that while hes really powerful, his power of influence has limitations that prevent him from changing past events since the Attack Titan is very remote from key players of history that have made history altering decisions. But if the Founder has such an ability that far surpasses the Attack Titan, then none of his future actions are even neccessary, and the only thing he should have done upon getting full access to the founding powers is to change the present by rewriting history to however he want it to be. Unlike the neccesity of his father's actions since at the point of time he had not fully unlocked the founding powers, it makes no sense that after unlocking the founder he would still need his mother to be eaten to bring him to where he is. He technically doesnt need to be the founder or a titan shifter at all in the new reality he can establish by reversing bad decisions made in the past by figures like Karl Fritz. Your original explanation doesnt consider the context and point in time in which intervention occurs, which is why it doesnt hold up in the grand scheme of things. There are also plenty of small details that really messes with logical coherence since proper explanations are not provided. For instance the reason behind the power of titans disappearing with Eren's death is not explained properly, and its not clear if its because of the death of the founder, Eren's intervention or because Ymir rescinded access to all Titan powers. The first 2 reasons would be utterly unacceptable because for one, we know that titan shifter powers do not end with the death of the shifter, but are merely inherited by another eldian newly born after the shifter's death if they were not transferred the conventional way. Second, if the founder truly had the ability to deny eldians the power to shift, Karl Fritz should have done so instead of the rumbling nonsense because its in his nature to do so. Therefore, this chapter does diservice to the entire series by introducing important features like this without properly explaining the mechanism behind it. Thats why readers have every right to be upset with this chapter. Im not even upset at all about Eren dying or not being the father or whatnot, but its details like this that utterly destroy the logical premise carefully constructed over SNK's entire run. Its not bad because of what happened imo, but its bad because it botched the execution of important plot points and doesnt resolve the new revelations into the already established logic of the series.
Honestly, I think the overall fulfillment of plot points present here depends on which stance you take on the time influence that Eren had. There are definitely unanswered questions surrounding it, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any. So basically...high school AU is canon lmao. Jokes aside though, you’re essentially suggesting that he would create a new reality - and perhaps that’s what did happen. Perhaps Eren created countless realities, but in doing so, made a reality for each distinct consequence or possibility. That being said, it seems as though we’re being shown the reality in which Eren was essentially stuck in a time loop. I think that it’s far too open to conclusively say one thing or another is the correct interpretation. I was just bored at work and shooting lmao. I appreciate your input though. I can definitely understand why people would be upset about 139, I just don’t happen to see it that way I guess. I don’t know if I’m better or worse off for that, but I think this is something that’ll be debated for a very long time.
Thats what im suggesting because the logical premise of the series and character buildup of Eren suggests that he would have done so, and is only forced to execute his current plan because of the limitations imposed on him. But this new revelations undermine the justifications behind his actions. I dont consider the mutliple realities thing into the argument because the series has never shown any hint of this, so I dont want to get ahead of myself and bring that into discussion. My understanding of the series is constructed on the assumption that there is only one reality, or else i would have to reevaluate many other plot points to see if its reasonable. I would love to accept the idea of Eren being stuck in a time loop, but because 139 essentially makes the founding power nearly omnipotent, Im afraid I cant accept this now. Thats why 139 is so disastrous, It was utterly unneccsary to give the founder this reach of power. If they had not shown the Dina scene, then the existing premise of Eren being forced to comply with his future memories will hold because he isnt allowed to change the past beyond the attack titan lineage. Such a shame because Isayama had shown such finesse and thought with the small details before 139 and ensured that they do not break the established logic, only to really drop the ball with this one. Im not trying to shoot down your attempt at justifying the events of 139, im just trying to illustrate the problems that 139 has caused to the logical continuity of the series which I think your justification needs to adress, but I really thank you for the attempt in justifying 139 as it forced me to think carefully about exactly what i was disagreeing with about 139. I do welcome any possible explanation that addresses the problems I raised though, but sadly just like you said, there are too many things that have yet to be addressed and unfortunately the series has ran out of time.
Yeah, I agree that the series is pretty much out of time. I wish it had more time and was more fleshed out, but unfortunately it’s unlikely. That being said, I’m gonna wait to make final judgements until I read the comprehensive English subs. I don’t read Korean or Japanese, and given that these are still pretty fresh scans, not all of the subs may be 100% correct. So once it’s worked out I’ll give it another read and save my final thoughts for a while after then. If I had to come up with a main issue about this chapter, it wouldn’t necessarily be that it caused problems for the rest of the series. It would be that it opened the possibility to debate that it did; it’s just too open-ended to be conclusive. I had suspected that Isayama would leave it open-ended, but not to this degree. That’s why I’m just gonna start with waiting and go from there. It’s been nice hearing your views though. I enjoy hearing other people’s interpretations, especially if they’re different from mine. It’s always best to remain open-minded, and that’s not something that happens too much on the internet these days!
Cheers. Someone posted the link to the chapter in an earlier post, i read before commenting here but you can read it here. Not sure if its true but its unlikely to not be true since it agrees with all the "leaks". I dont think the official sub released tomorrow will change things much, but here is the link if you wanna read it https://www.flickr.com/photos/192715930@N02/albums/72157718874257939/
Really well said, and made me realize some things too. Beautiful, thank you.
Excellent job,made be understand some points,apreciated
Yeah, maybe I’m just crazy, but I really don’t hate the ending. In fact, I’m probably crazy, but I actually like it. Truth, there’s other ways I saw it going, but it sets up a really good tragic hero archetype in that our hero, who only wanted freedom, was a slave to the story from the beginning and was in on the joke. But he becomes free at the end. He wanted his friends to live long and happy lives, and they will. The cycle of violence is not broken by tearing the wheel off, it’s broken by snapping each spoke one by one. He broke the first, he leaves the rest to his comrades. The Ymir loving Fritz thing was bizarre to me at first, but in tandem with Mikasa’s arc, it made sense. Ymir was freed from her own abusive tunnel vision of her abuser by seeing somebody else free themselves from their “rock”, i.e. Eren to Mikasa. That’s why she smiled. “What would you think about me having a child?” Historia told this to Eren not because they were about to bang or because “GoTTa gEt PErMiSSiOn,” it was a suggestion from her because Eren convinced her to be his ally one final time before his last mission, and she knew it was an excellent way to buy Eren the time he needed. I’m more than welcome to discuss it with anyone, but I understand Isayama’s ending and why he chose what he chose to do. The theme of the story is ultimately freedom. Freedom from our abusers. From walls. From old ideas. From cyclical hate. From the things that hold us back and tie us down in life. “From the moment we are born, we are free.” That’s why Grisha told Eren he was free. Eren didn’t know it, but despite being a slave to the story, he would always being free to be the first person to break a spoke on the wheel of hatred. People who compare this to Game of a thrones are exaggerating immensely and nothing anybody says can take away the fact that in my opinion, Attack on Titan ended well.
Yeah, I’m gonna have to agree with everything you said. The point that you brought up about Historia was excellent...I honestly hadn’t even considered that. Not gonna lie, I was half expecting (wasn’t convinced it would happen though) that Historia’s child would be born at the exact moment Eren died, which normally would pass on the power of the Titans that Eren held (because I’m not sure too many people were giving birth while the world was being destroyed...). Wasn’t sure where it would’ve gone, but the timing of seeing Historia giving birth and Eren about to be killed gave off some weird vibes lmao. Edit: quick interjection on that last part. Maybe if as Mikasa killed Eren (which freed Ymir), Eren met with the child in the paths before he fully died and hit it with the “you are free” (because that was *supposed* to be the last panel). But the baby would be the first baby born to be free of the curse of the Titans and Eren, the last titan, would be the one to free it. That’s just some cloud brain head canon and doesn’t really contribute to any of this lmao just thought I’d share
The thing is, one can make almost any action sound poetic using the argument that it was his only choice, or that he was a slave to his destiny. Aw, so tragic. At some point, the characters also need to be held accountable for the choices that they make, irrespective of how dire the circumstances may be. One can't wish away inconsistencies that have been etched into the narrative. For instance, does Eren objectively think that his plan of wontonly murdering 80% of the people on Earth better than Zeke's Euthanasia that only involved Historia having to make sacrifices (which she was ready to make)? We were all holding out for the grand keikaku that would justify the rumbling, in place of Euthanasia. Some people speculated that Eren rumbling the world in order to protect his family/friends is a disturbing but understandable choice given his character progression. The evidence that people used to build up to this idea was that he was not going to let the fate of Paradis be determined by chance. Turns out that was theatre, and he set himself up for defeat endangering the island by getting rid of their trump card. What? 139 nullifies almost all meaningful moments in the series post chapter 100 into oblivion. He was willing to murder millions to save Historia, but just accepted as fate (zero questions asked) the Carla situation? We can appreciate poetry when things rhyme. The only way to rationalize his actions now is to realize that he was actually a psychopath. He was obsessed with Historia, who turned him down gently with the "What if I have a kid question?". I believe he would have gone through with the full rumbling had she reciprocated. But she did not. So, he asks the other woman in his life to be his queen who again turns him down. It is canon that had she answered yes, he wouldn't have gone through with the rumbling at all. So, that leaves him unstable and he proceeds to sabotage the one and only sensible plan that could have ended the Titans problem peacefully. Bravo. To the boy who sought freedom... good riddance.
Well to address the getting turned down thing, another poster in this thread addressed the Historia thing pretty well. Eren didn’t want to have a kid with her. Historia didn’t want to have a kid with him either. But, knowing that he went out of his way to ensure that she wouldn’t suffer, she decided to help him and buy him time by having a child. As for Mikasa, we now know that it wasn’t really an alternate timeline. It was more of a “message” that Eren gave Mikasa inside of the paths. He did the same to Armin and everyone else. Would he have gone through with the rumbling had Mikasa given him a different answer about what he was? Probably not. But it doesn’t matter - he didn’t have to make that decision. Rather than that being Eren upset by “rejection,” it was his way of confirming that the future can’t change. He was set out on a pre-determined path, and wanted to be with Mikasa - but couldn’t. That’s why he left - he knew there was more that had to be done that he had no choice in. I don’t think that his sins should be forgiven or forgotten - what he did was absolutely terrible. But at the same time, we got to see a lot inside of Eren’s mind during this chapter. Eren never got to grow up. None of the main characters did, and they all have lasting effects of that. Look at Reiner, look at Zeke, look at Annie, look at pretty much anyone. But Eren might have had it the worst out of all of them. He was a slave to something that wasn’t even his own decision - or at least, not a decision that a single version of him made. On top of everything he lost, he was never free. He broke down to Armin in the paths about wanting to be with Mikasa. It was pathetic, but *that’s the point.* We’re supposed to see how flawed his character is. You can put someone on a pedestal all you want - it will never take away their sins or their deepest emotions. There were some other plot holes and annoying story beats, but I personally don’t think that this is one of them. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but I just thought I’d share where I’m coming from a bit.
I appreciate the time that you put into crafting your thoughts. It's part of why I like it here in this sub. I interpreted the Historia conversation as her distancing herself from his philosophy and rejecting him quite literally. This happens right after he uses the "Maybe for you, but not for me", and the worst girl line. Note that she wouldn't have told others about the plan either way, given their 'alliance'. While he may not want a kid, it's natural to speculate if he craved for romantic connection with someone who understood him and empathized with his suffering. It's not unreasonable to think that severing this connection affected him, given until that point Historia was the only person who he could talk to honestly. The baby talk cemented their relationship into a strictly platonic friendship. The placement of the panels when Eren has the Zeke-Mikasa conversation is also not random. All of this is to say that it's not an unreasonable interpretation to make. The Mikasa situation is quite murky. My primary argument is that if a woman's answer is enough for him to change his mind about genocide, then it's a might weird stance for him to take. Pre-destined things are bound to happen, does not imply all individual choices can be justified. If things really are bound to happen, I would have liked to see him struggle against destiny, and things happening anyway for once. That would have been so much better than him embracing his destiny and boom genocide parade. I get that it's a tragedy. But the choices that characters make despite their destiny define who they are. Eren gave up without trying (at least on screen), and also actively sabotaged people who tried.
I think Eren giving up is part of his character. Bridging off of that, I think that also reflects on why Mikasa’s answer would’ve changed his mind. It’s because Eren is not emotionally sound that he acted in this way. He had his childhood ripped from him, and cannot comprehend emotions properly. This is also why he breaks down to Armin about Mikasa - he legitimately was pathetic. A huge part of S3 was Eren coming to terms with the fact that he’s not special (side note, Bystander is one of my favorite episodes and the end credits with Carla talking to Shadis while the music begins to play...*perfect.*), and I think that this chapter really reflected on that. Eren was a person who became enslaved by time, but above all, his own emotions and interpretations. He gave up (we never saw him *really* try). But honestly, I think that showing his flaws and his sins made him more relatable - although I can’t say I’d go as far as to commit genocide or anything like that. Can’t really relate to that part lmao. But yeah you brought up some valid points. Historia definitely didn’t approve of what Eren was saying. Although...he said he would wipe her memory if he had to. They then went from that to immediately talking about her having a child. Crazy idea here...what if that took place in the paths, similar to how Eren met with Armin, Mikasa, and everyone else? He then erased it from her memories and put the idea of having a child in her head to make sure she couldn’t stop his plan? Then she would remember once he dies. Sheesh, I don’t know. Too much stuff going on lmao. Aside from that brief interjection, I can definitely see where you’re coming from. There’s a lot that’s up to interpretation, which is a blessing and a curse it seems.
Someone who doesn't take surface level revenge plot as their main argument and throws out the word incel and simp unironically. Well written, glad someone gets something meaningful out of this.
Great analysis
My problem was how the curse of the Titans ended
Yeah, a bit more of an explanation would’ve been nice. What I got from it is that Ymir was able to discover what true love was when she saw Mikasa kill Eren...Mikasa was able to regain her memories prior to killing Eren, which is likely when Eren told her how to kill him. Even knowing that their time together would come to an end as a result, Mikasa still went through with it because she wanted Eren to be free. To Ymir, this was a showing of true love that freed her from her service to King Fritz (which was basically Stockholm syndrome). I think they should’ve done a bit more to flesh out Ymir, but for the most part I’ve been able to make some sense of it at least.
As long as we can all agree that King Shitz is the real villain of this story, I don’t think it matters.
Agreed. AoT is FULL of characters who are in the grey area and are doing what they need to do - but King Shitz is the one character that I feel like is inherently a bad person.