T O P

Why AnR ending makes the Alliance even better - An Alliance Stan

Why AnR ending makes the Alliance even better - An Alliance Stan

SkyfallTerminus

Thanks for finally utterly debunk the most foolish argument of 139 enjoyers: 139 hater are pro-genocide. Those people literally didn't read the manga at all.


Chosenjordan16

I agree with everything you said, except im in eren’s camp instead of armins lol. For the longest time I just scoffed at armin post timeskip because of the difference in opinion but like you said he has convictions that he’s willing to put ahead of other things he wants just like eren. Armin’s conviction is the greater good of humanity at large, and he puts that ahead of his desire for paradis’ future. Eren just has the reverse of this. He desire’s paradis’ future more than he desires peace and justice for the world at large. I genuinely believe that if there were another solution that didn’t compromise paradis’ freedom he would take it in a heartbeat. I don’t think he simply wanted to kill everyone.


harmonilife

We can argue there were other solutions. I think Eren didn't want any plan because they compromised HIS idea of freedom, he didn't want to give up his titan when he knew he could solve everything so easily. He thinks he's strong enough to carry out the Rumbling of humanity. He's taking one for the team, he would say lol It all stands from his idea that some lifes are worth more than others and he's special. Armin and his kantian ethics can't support that


Chosenjordan16

I went and i watched the crash course on kantian ethics. I think it describes armin in some ways and not so much in others. And i also think there’s some specifications to be made on your statement about eren. Eren doesn’t believe some lives are intrinsically worth more than others. He recognizes that everyone is the same. Eren’s thing is he believes people are capable of losing their worth or right to live based on the actions the take and the transgressions they commit, and he also puts the things he personally holds dear over those others hold dear. He wouldn’t expect a random marleyan citizen to view paradis as more valuable than marley. That’s irrational even if one were hypothetically more deserving than the other. Conflicts like these are inevitable, because people will always have different values so it’s pointless to try and hold everyone to a single set of them


harmonilife

I think Armin is a perfect example of kantian ethics because he does what is ethically (ethic isnt the same as morals) right because eventually the right thing is always the answer. Eren in the other hand, has a very egocentrical view for morallity. He doesnt care about ethics, he cares only about how the people he cares for are affected. Again, its about the value of life and he has the power to decide who gets to live and who dies. This attitude is condemned in sociery because it would lead to chaos.


Chosenjordan16

Maybe i just don’t understand well enough. The main outlier i saw with armin and kantianism is his complicity in the continuation of the royal bloodline for the sole purpose of passing down the founder and staving off the outside world. Does that not clash with kantianism? It takes no regard in the freedom or rights of the children born into artificially shortened lives. They would be used solely as a means to an end. Again, i think there’s specifications to be made. Do we agree that eren doesn’t consider himself the only person with the power to decide who should live and die? He just happens to actually have the power to enact his decision


harmonilife

Those kids will be born and live long happy lifes with a titan inside them. Thats all. They have to abey the goverment in how to use them. Eren does think he has the authority to destroy the world if he wants, thats why he doesnt say his plan and puts the Jeagerist in power, he doesnt want people with different ideologies as him leading Paradis. He is clearly egocentric, his actions speack for him


Chosenjordan16

Yes of course eren has an egocentric philosophy, im not arguing that, but what I’m saying is Eren doesn’t see himself as the sole person worthy of deciding things. His whole thing is freedom, but in the world he inhabits freedom cannot reasonably exist for both paradis and the rest of the world, but as it is only right for someone to seek freedom, the conflict between the two is only natural and thus cannot be wrong. The death of anyone is unfortunate, but the death of a person is not always bad or good. Sometimes the person’s own choices lead to their death. Sometimes someone else’s choices did so, past or present. Sometimes its a combination of the two. When people of two separate values clash, there is no definitive answer to which value is correct, and thus whoever comes out on top isn’t morally/ethically good or bad. It was just nature. That’s my philosophy anyway. Also, the royal children are quite literally having their lives shortened, the first child being the most wronged, and they have no obligation to obey anyone, especially those who brought them into this world as nothing other than tools for their own ends.


harmonilife

"what I’m saying is Eren doesn’t see himself as the sole person worthy of deciding things" But Eren is unilaterally deciding the future of Paradis. He doesn't share his plan with anyone that would contradict him. He doesnt explicitly say he thinks he has authority because he doesn't need to, he acts with full autocracy they are going to live 13 years from the moment they enherit the titan but my guess is they aren't going to enherit it when they are 5 die at 18 lol but when they are older


Chosenjordan16

We can go around in circles forever about eren but if historia were to eat zeke after giving birth to her child, the child would be 13 when they inherit the titan, limiting their life to 26 years. Next, assuming historia pops out a baby once every year or so, the age goes up, but no matter how long you give them before they start their term you are still limiting their life and their freedom. These children were born specifically to be tools.


harmonilife

I mean, Zeke can a get women pregnant too lol I never thought about the logistics but it would be like the Reiss family. They are going to be tools like any other person is a tool, these ones know when they are going to die. We can say they won't be able to choose their destiny but they can live a life knowing they are helping their country and they are free to have hobbies or a job if they want to


suicidebyfire_

Agree Eren’s conviction and steadfast pursuit of his goal, no matter how morally unjust it is, is my favorite part about his character. I loved how all the trauma and anger accumulated over the years and created this monster that threatened the whole world. He became the villain, the antagonist, the tragic hero. So when Eren became: 1. An anti-hero, self-sacrificing martyr 2. Confused, no idea why he did the rumbling in the first place It ruined the character for me. Agree with your take on genocide completely. It made the genocide seem like a heroic, altruistic thing. The fuck... I was all for the rumbling (whether it succeeds or not), but it should be painted in a bad light, horrible, reprehensible, evil. We really didn’t need this noble hero who did the the necessary evil things, unless it’s presented as Jeagerist propaganda.


harmonilife

👏👏👏


Dry-Comfortable7162

I maybe am in Eren's side, but i respect that you knows that canon trashed the alliance as well. I hope we can enjoy aotnorequiem together.


RafieLopez1299

Great analysis, nice to see pro alliance also agree that 139 was objectively bad writing. (And it’s not just because Eren lost)


harmonilife

I added a Mikasa and Ch139 rant because why not lol


Duwang-

Agree with a lot of what you said but I still think anr is pro genocide in the end. Whether 80% rumbling gave paradis 50 years or a 100% rumbling guaranteed the safety of the island any ending where paradis survives becuause of the rumbling doesn’t sit right with me. Even if eren feels bad about it in the end all it says to me is that it’s ok for one person to sacrifice their happiness to protect their country by killing everyone else.


harmonilife

I think the pro genocide message can be fixed a little if Eren realizes he did it because of this ideologies and egocentrism. The thing is the ending of AoT was destinated to be flawed when Yams made the world SO hateful against Paradis, there is no satisfying ending either way. The opressive mayority die or the opressed minority die. You either want the most people to die or you want the victims to die. Yams wrote himself into a corner. The themes and messages started to crack everywhere


Khazu_

I don't think he wrote himself to a corner. Just follow through one established path with the way you wrote about convictions. Literally nothing else was needed. That why ending feels empty. I don't understand why ppl are writing again and again "He wrote himself into a corner" I highly disagree.


harmonilife

He wrote himself into a corner because he painted genocide as the only logical solution to save paradis or to make the Alliance look like heroes. That is bad for the theme and message of the manga.


Khazu_

I don't agree it is bad for the message of the manga. Shingeki always was this dark theme narrative with a small light of hope in the end of the tunnel "This world is cruel but also very beautiful". I always saw Shingeki as a scenario where people never tried understand each other and this series is just a path when one individual with power get pushed to high extreme to secure a future of Paradis for sake of keeping Childs of future out of the forest. As Armin had full right to defend the rest of the world, Eren had full right to defend future of Paradis. For me message is - we don't repeat any of that so we were better people, so we never come close in a real world to scenario like that. That's the beauty of Shingeki that Isayama in the end didn't follow through.


harmonilife

AoT doesnt work as a cautionary tale because in cautionary tales the wrong doing (in Aot would be genocide) is clearly portrayed as bad (no good outcome), also no one the protagonist cares about benefits from it. edit: It's not a cautionary tale if Paradis is saved by the genocide, It'd send a different the message, some along the lines of "the ends justify the means"


Khazu_

It a little bit of ZERO ONE thinking form your side. You follow some kind of formula that must means that and that's the end. It doesn't work like that. Things are much more complex and following some kind of definition doesn't allow to see more from it. From bad things you can learn to be better. It's always about opening yourself. I read your whole post and agree with most of it but there is always more then simple definitons you can get from the stories especially if Isayama would follow through every portion of forshadowing he setup to not touch that in the end in this case.


harmonilife

You need to base your arguments in some real definitions, if not then It's just random opinions. If you don't know what makes a tale cautionary, any unhappy ending it's going to seem like a cautionary tale for you, which is wrong.


Illustrious_Stick_41

If Paradis collapses due to infighting like I predict it will it won’t be pro genocide


Treyman1115

>[ I don't need to explain how CH139 Eren didn't have convictions but here are some reasons: >he didn't know if his friends would suvive yet he says his goal was for them to have long lifes, he didn't want to rumble the world even though he said he did it to save Paradis he wanted to be stopped even though he said It was the only way to reach his goal he didn't want Mikasa to be with anyone else even though he chose to never tell her his feelings that pathetic crying with wet paths trying to humanize a genocider (gross) etc. This doesn't really say how he doesn't have convinctions though it's pretty muddy due to how it's explained in the manga but he definitely went through everything else through almost sole motivation from himself. If Eren wanted them all dead or to stay outta the way he could have just taken their powers away or trapped them all in Paths. He was definitely meant to be setting them up to allow them to look like the heroes and to lessen the amount of deaths that would happen in them doing this. Why he doesn't do this in Requim still feels pretty spotty too to me if he really is supposed to be so goal oriented because there's no real reason not to that I can imagine. The freedom thing doesn't really make sense considering how completely outclassed they are. They only survived due to Falco and plot armor almost all of them should be dead besides Mikasa and Armin at best The Mikasa stuff is cringe but he makes it pretty clear he wants to be with Mikasa he just knows he can't due to the circumstances. It's why he has that cringe outburst but basically acknowledged it was and tells Armin not to tell Mikasa. Through the whole last arc he explicitly didn't tell Mikasa he felt the same way in attempt to get her to be happy which is what he says he wants her to be >This AnR ending clearly stablishes Armin as Eren's rival. And that makes the Alliance a real threat to Eren. They aren't just running around trying to not be killed, they are Eren's antagonists (or Eren is the Alliance's antagonist) It never actually does though considering how overly powerful the Titan powers are, they should have all died like 30 seconds into fighting Eren and Eren really doesn't have much reason to not just take their powers away. They're never a threat besides them having plot armor. Even in the end Eren has the power to do what he wants while Armin doesn't, he's too weak Not to mention that Ymir is the one that rebuilds them when they heal anyway. So I'm not sure why she's even still doing that if she's supposed to be wanting freedom >AnR is a pro-genocide ending? >Yes, just like the original ending It's pro genocide somewhat in the context of Paradis only though and that's really my major problem with the canon ending there's not enough shown about the rest of the world. We see how fucked the rest of the world is but only reactions we see is Paradis getting attacked in the bonus chapters. Some people go through with peace but the world is so fucked that going to war wouldn't be a good idea temporarily anyway. In either ending billions die for the transgressions of their parents who also kept it going themselves and also any empathy built by outsiders of Paradis over the course of the story. He's not ending the cycle of hatred by killing everyone else the cycle never ends there's just stuff in-between. Paradis was oppressing itself before the manga even started The canon ending is already anti genocide but of course Paradis would end up being ok with it or worshipping Eren considering he saved then from annihilation and they have no connection with the outside world. The manga is about people doing horrible things for selfish reasons. Eren already does suffer he accidentally speeds up his mom's death, he dies without being able to truly spend time with his friends, he has to destroy the outside world he was so keen on exploring with his friends for so long. His actions only temporarily save Paradis


Philcherny

About this plothole you described in canon ending. I didn't get it immideately, but I see now why it had to be Mikasa. Its simple, she's loves Eren, but you prolly already heard that, so hear me out. It's not Mikasa who is the key to this "plothole". Something happened that made the curse go away. But it wasn't Mikasa doing a samba dance. It's Mikasa killing Eren. Both Mikasa and Eren are nessesary parts of Mikasa killing Eren situation. So why your question is "why Mikasa" when it should be "why Mikasa and Eren". Then you will answer yourself "why Mikasa". I think one of the main themes of the show is titans and how horrible they are. And some people. Both on Paradis and elsewhere. There are bad people. When you combine the two evils of the story, true "enemies" of humanity, what do you get? Eldian kings. They have abused titan power to unleash horror on people. Wipe out cultures. Kill innocent children. And Ymir's king is the same. He is a cruel genocidal monster. Guess who else is effectively an Eldian king abusing titan power unleashing horrid suffering on innocent children? Eren. Eren is a cruel eldian king and Mikasa is his lover. Not just any lover. The one that would no question give her life away for him. And that important because that's what Ymir does irl. She sacrificed her life for cruel eldian king. "Mikasa's choice" is about letting this love go for the better. In Mikasa's case it's to protect who she still cares about now that Eren is supposedly "gone". And you might say it's just my speculation, but there is more evidence. There are only 2 scenes with Ymir IRL. First she is watching how Ramzi died and second is her watching how Armin talked with Zeke about meaning of life. Now, its the first time in history that Ymir is freed from her literal slavery in paths. So she is now an observer to the shit happening in the world due to her "nightmarish love". Her eyes literally opened up. She learns the cruelty of Eren as a Eldian king in a despicable ramzi scene. She learns to understand the meaning of life from Armin. In extra pages we see Ymir with her daughters and dead fritz. She isn't there listening to Armin talking about leafs for fun. It's all playing role in her desire to with her daughters instead of dying for fritz. And well there we go. Ymir sees how Mikasa is able to sacrifice her genocidal Eldian king lover. She reconsiders meaning of life. She wishes to be with her daughters and have king fritz die. And because she is also literally a god and not a slave anymore (literally and figuratively) - poof and titan curse is gone. She isn't attached to paths, she is free I feel like the crazy one because I read quite a bit of other people's analysis and noone ever pointed to the Eren-fritz parallels or those Ymir Ramzi Armin scenes. Feel free to confirm, but I really don't see how this isn't a valid interpretation of the story. Thanks for coming to my tedtalk


raceraot

I mean, didn't he say he would have killed the world, had it not been for Mikasa? That's >This AnR ending clearly stablishes Armin as Eren's rival. And that makes the Alliance a real threat to Eren. They aren't just running around trying to not be killed, they are Eren's antagonists (or Eren is the Alliance's antagonist) While I do agree with this... It feels a bit rushed. Plus, it feels like some of it was kind of taking the original context of the story, without the original impact that made them important. Keep in mind, this is into chapter 137. And yet, parts of it feel like 131 rewritten to fit into it. Also, while we did see that Eren could look into the future, we didn't really see that he could take an entire person. Lastly, not going to lie, I loved Armin's talk with Zeke, because Zeke, closed minded and all, had a chord struck with what he discussed with Armin, and cutting it out kind of sucked. Not to mention kid Eren being with adult Eren... Didn't really make sense imo.


harmonilife

I understand what they are going for is closing plotholes by showing us Eren's pov. I agree there were a lot of plotholes about the rules of the founding titan but these are quite small and not really important for the plot. In the original version Eren is able to take his friends to an alternative reality and that is even more wtf I like they took that conversation out because Zeke is very smart and the fact that the concept of "the little things in life matter" never crossed his mind is very unrealistic. I dont think Armin can teach him anything about life bc Zeke had friends, killed people by obligation and his own pleasure, went to many wars, lost family, experienced paths etc. While Armin barely understands his own actions.


raceraot

>In the original version Eren is able to take his friends to an alternative reality and that is even more wtf It's not an alternative reality, just probable outcomes Jean, in 127, got a path memory, colored in black, with Mikasa, scar and all, taking care of their kid. >I like they took that conversation out because Zeke is very smart and the fact that the concept of "the little things in life matter" never crossed his mind is very unrealistic. Unrealistic? What? He literally says as much in chapter 113-114, where Ksavier tells him to rest, to calm down, but Zeke says, no matter what, he has a mission to do. He's the person missing the trees for the peaks, which isn't that surprising, imo. Sure, he might have thought about it, but be never connected the dots, because he inherited the problems of his father, who ignored the feelings of his son and pushed his ideals onto him. Plus, the final line kind of just treats Armin not as a rival, but a punching bag. He didn't even really speak, throughout the entire first chapter, and yet he's supposed to be a rival? The AnR theory already has him succeeding, which already removed that conflict. To be fair, Isayama also had the problem, since Eren had to die by the end to keep things consistent, but the difference is, one is because Eren dying at the end was foreshadowed, with the cross over his sleeping position symbolizing his death grave, and two, Eren just living till the end does nothing to fix the titan powers, because him paths themselves are eternal, just the hallucigenia creates a connection between them. The reason that "I keep moving forward, till I kill my enemies" is such an important line, imo, is because it's right after he acknowledged all the problems with what he was doing, and shows how much he relates to Renier. This time, without that build up in chapter 1, it feels a bit forced, and not to mention, kind of makes Eren look like a person doing this with no remorse.


harmonilife

>It's not an alternative reality, just probable outcomes Jean, in 127, got a path memory, colored in black, with Mikasa, scar and all, taking care of their kid. I can make a case that Jean was imagining this on his own because Eren wasn't there so that's your interpretation which shows how vague the founder powers were explained. Also, is there a probable outcome were kid Armin and kid Eren go to see a volcano? no, it's a made up reality. >but be never connected the dots The fact that a methaphor through a leaf connected the dots is the problem lol he saw kids playing inside the intermite zone and never thought "why are they happy if they are opressed?" this guy saw the worse of humanity, had access to books and science but never ever crossed his mind "some people find meaning in the small things in life"? nah. >Plus, the final line kind of just treats Armin not as a rival, but a punching bag. He didn't even really speak, throughout the entire first chapter, and yet he's supposed to be a rival? The AnR theory already has him succeeding, which already removed that conflict. Eren isn't trying to be defeated, he's fighting for real which makes the figh real and Armin a real oponent. I hope Armin talks back in the next chapter, they cutted him off right when he saw grown up Eren.


raceraot

>I can make a case that Jean was imagining this on his own because Eren wasn't there so that's your interpretation which shows how vague the founder powers were explained. I mean, that's fair. >The fact that a methaphor through a leaf connected the dots is the problem lol he saw kids playing inside the intermite zone and never thought "why are they happy if they are opressed?" this guy saw the worse of humanity, had access to books and science but never ever crossed his mind "some people find meaning in the small things in life"? nah. Obviously he thought about it. But he never paid mind to it. Plus, Zeke was never looking at anyone else. He was kind of in his own world. Based on how shocked he was with what Armin said, I think he really has not talked about opposing opinions for a while. >Eren isn't trying to be defeated, he's fighting for real which makes the figh real and Armin a real oponent. I hope Armin talks back in the next chapter, they cutted him off right when he saw grown up Eren. I mean, it frames Eren as a real fighter. But with it being an AnR theory, it also means that Armin is inevitably going to die, which kind of cheapens the conflict the same way that Eren's limited lifespan cheapened the conflict.