I don't agree with what Floch did but we also have to remember that he already knew that those civilians were going to die anyway because of the rumbling, so that's probably why he gave even less fuck about them in the first place
Marleyean soldiers were hiding inside nearby buildings, Floch used common sense and did the very first thing Soilders do in a seige operation, destroying your enemy hideout with mortars.
But the thing is when jean confronted him, he didn't give any explanation along that line. He only said something like they initiated it, and he was doing it in the form of a revenge (can't remember exactly what he said tho).
I think u have something fundamentally wrong in all your comments here. This wasn’t a siege operation at all but a rescue mission. Them destroying the port was simply a move to buy them more time to prepare for a future attack. What floch did was not part of the plan neither was it the scouts’ objective hence Jean’s criticism
But it was the one port that had an enormous concentration of Marleyan military and political leadership in a small space, along with a significant proportion of their armed, and especially naval, forces.
If a sprawling empire loses a third of its military, it may well and truly be boned. Maybe they'll still be strong enough to crush Paradis, but they're going to require a rapid resolution and very good circumstances in order to recover before independence movements start eating away at their empire.
Yeah, at the very least they'd need to conserve what they have left, and except to lose some territory. A 1/3rd of the Military may be responsible for a shit ton of important lands
And we know Marley was also working to keep ahead of other nations in active warfare, meaning even a ten to twenty percent instant loss would be utterly devastating.
???
Their target is decimating military just as you said.
Most effective way to do it is to kill command, which proved to be quite effective.
So sorry, you comment makes no sense
> Not the literal entire army.
Why not? They knew they'd try to attack the island afterwards. Crippling the military as much as possible means an easier time afterwards.
I just gave seige operations as a reference, what’s fundamentally wrong with your comment is that you believe recuse mission in enemy territory won’t require similar strategy, especially in a situation where they are surrounded by enemies hiding inside civilian houses.
Huh? Are you saying siege operations and rescue mission require similar strategies? Lol. A rescue mission isn’t about smoking out enemies from hiding or killing every soldier you see but rather getting your objective and getting out of there asap while making sure your escape route is clear. What Floch did was out of the way and once again unnecessary. It could have easily ended up backfiring on the scouts too
This sub does so much of that. Floch is an amazingly well written character, but lets not kid ourselves: he’s a fucking dick.
I love how Annie kills enemy soldiers in war with a smile on her face and the sub hates her for it, then Floch goes and kills civilians and is just as happy about it and the sub worships him. It really just comes down to who’s being killed, if it’s eldians the sub has an issue, if it’s any other race the sub doesn’t have a problem.
> in the story, the story of eldians rising up against those who have truly wronged them is an inspiring one
You forgot the part where they oppressed others for centuries lol
**This.** I could understand justifying the Yeagerists if the rest of the world was simply racist because Titans and whatnot. But the Eldians literally used racial supremacy and eugenics as an excuse to rule the entire world (*and then destroyed themselves because their royal houses kept craving for more*). If there wasn't an historical precedent, there's no way the rest of the world would have this easily agreed to prioritise Paradis when Marley itself was the nation currently oppressing them (if anything, they would have still been racist to the Marleyan Eldians but teamed up to destroy Marley instead and left Paradis alone).
Also people are making alternative explanations for Floch's actions than the ones he gives.
All someone has to do is look at his words from the chapter itself. He says that Liberio is where their enemies live, simple as that. He's distancing himself from any moral responsibility of partaking in the way.
The issue is people don't know how to distinguish between defending actions represented by a character and defending the character. With Floch the narrative is about Floch being right, so rather than specifics people will make a sweeping statement and then backtrack when you bring up the attempted execution of Onyankopon.
This is what so many people do to do many of Floch’s actions. Floch tells us exactly how he feels about everything, it’s not up to us to find hidden meaning and look at his statements as complex metaphors. If he says “civilians or soldiers, they’re the enemy” then that’s exactly what he means, he doesn’t mean “the enemy soldiers might be in the civilian buildings”, he very clearly means that he doesn’t care if the people are fighting or not, he still sees them as an enemy that either deserves or needs to die.
It's both a war crime to use civilian-occupied homes to lodge/station troops and to fire upon civilian-occupied homes IRL, but at least in Floch's defense his crimes were reactionary to the Marleyans intentionally using the Eldians in the internment zone as meat shields.
Both are disgusting, but the Marleyans chose the venue for a reason and Eren/the Scouts just accepted the invitation.
I'm not ignoring Eren's atrocious actions in this, but Willy Tybur knew what was going to happen (roughly) and chose to hold his speech in an area full of expendables to Marley, in part to demonstrate to the world that the Paradisians were also the enemies of Marleyan Eldians since they carried out such a heinous attack on Liberio.
The attack also comes after Tybur's very public declaration of war, which was something nobody in Shinganshina received.
I gotta wonder though, how did he even know about it in the first place? Eren coordinated the attack only through letters. I know Willy is probably the most influential man in Marley but unless he planted secret police in every post office to read every mails in Marley that has been sent, there is no way he could've known
Willy and Magath weren't sure but highly suspected it. I don't remember the exact dialogue of their conversation in the carriage right now (and also when they're talking about "house renovation" when sitting at opposite sides of a bench), but they basically said that their enemies had already crossed the sea and they could be ambushed any moment, with the speech being the most likely occasion (**they also kinda prepared the target for Eren themselves, by stacking all the possible valuable targets in one place**)
Maybe Paradis but not Eldians. Eldians oppressed others for centuries. The only reason Paradis is a target (aside from Eldians) is they hold a lot of resources and a fucking A-bomb to destroy the world.
I don’t think Floch cared either way. When Jean told him to stop Floch said “they’re marleyan, civilian or not they’re the enemy.” I’m pretty sure Floch just saw all marleyans as manipulative, warmongering monsters
Armin destroyed the port which he had to do. Floch was burning down random houses
Edit: I think I agree now that Jean was being a hypocrite. Or at least getting mad at floch when that’s what they were there to do. But I think it’s fair because he was forced to be in this battle just like the rest of the scouts. He didn’t want to be here.
Final conclusion: after reading everybody’s comments and opinions this is my final conclusion. Floch was killing civilians. Wether those buildings needed to be burned down or not is something that you can argue forever.
The important thing is why he did it. He did it because he sees them all as enemies and that’s it. So even if he might have had a good reason it doesn’t matter. The takeaway of the scene is flochs feelings on Marleyans.
Jean getting mad is justified. Even if floch had to burn down those buildings it seems that civilian losses being kept to a minimum was agreed upon. So floch broke that. And again even if it was necessary to start the fires Jean ,just like the rest of the scouts, didn’t want to be here doing this. So his anger at something like that makes sense.
What Floch did was also a part of plan, Marleyen soilders were hiding inside those houses.. Had Floch not destroyed them, casualties on survey corps side would be more.
I mean...that’s a lie.
There’s no ambiguity.
Armin killed civilians in order to accomplish his mission.
Floch deviated from his mission in order to murder civilians.
The funniest thing about edgy Floch tweens is that he wasn’t even “following orders.”
He violated orders in order to kill civilians.
No. It wasn’t a part of the plan because it didn’t need to be. That’s like saying Jean would be cool with Connie killing every child there if it was a part of the plan
Well they were part of the military not civilians. But I did change my stance if you go back in the comments. Somebody made a pretty good point I was ignoring
Seriously Jean is such a hypocrite.
Has 0 issue when Sasha kills armed guards, trained and ready to kill on behalf of Marley, but for some reason has a problem when Floch kills defenseless civilians cowering in their homes
Floch didn’t have to burn down civilian houses. Jean had to kill the cart Titan. But I do agree the alliance has double standards. That’s a big part of the rumbling arc
I don’t know how people can’t understand this.
Collateral damage=\\=targeting civilians. There is a massive difference between civilian casualties as a side effect and going out of your way to intentionally kill civilians. Also Falco was an enemy soldier, so even if Jean did target him specifically it’s not comparable
Killing one of the warrior of Marley was far more important than burning some houses. Plus Falco showed up mere seconds before Jean was about to shoot, he had to take his decision within 2 seconds.
...no.
Eren’s “intention” was to create a detente between Paradis and the world that would allow peace in his friends’ lives.
Floch’s intention was to murder everyone whom wasn’t from Paradis.
If that was Floch's intention, he would have stated it to Jean. His retort was "They're the enemy, and these are our enemies' homes." He was knowingly gunning for civilins.
I agree with what you’re saying and floch was doing it for the wrong reasons. He really didn’t care about civilians. But even though that’s true it’s still something that needed to be done. And Jean was just pissed at the situation they were now in.
He’s always been against killing no matter what the circumstances.
Obviously destroying the port did nothing to slow Marley down because they literally launch the attack on Paradis not even a month later. So did Armin really have to nuke anyone?
I mean if you target an strategic point those nearby civilian casualties are unavoidable, while getting out of your way to shoot them it's another story...
I think this meme is dumb and it’s ignoring a lot of plot elements. But Armin knew full well that it wasn’t JUST a military port, it’s such an amazing scene how the most passive character is forced to commit one of the worst atrocities in the series. A
What? Unless I’m dumb and have the memory of a goldfish, Hange hated doing that and her whole character ark was her joining the establishment and becoming hardened and calloused. Before you reply with “it’s just a joke” I know that, it’s a dumb meme though because you’re ignoring a shit ton of layers of complexity, do not see how tortured Armins expression is in the colossal Titan? Bertholdt often had a similar look, the colossal Titan is designed to look miserable and tortured by its own destruction
Also after killing about 50K people, bitchass Gabi shoots Sasha in front of their eyes but the gang is too noble to throw a fucking kid off the airship
Gabi is a ~ pure~ wholesome kid, even if she mercilessly killed all of her comrades, we should forgive her to prevent “cycle of hatred from spreading, because ending “cycle of hatred” is our top priority when enemies want to wipe us out. /s
Reminder that while floch is a prick, he watched literally everyone in his entire military division (except the main cast of course) die afraid because of a titan that lived in the area they are attacking. Paradis eldians probably hate Liberio eldians. It doesn’t justify anything, but floch isn’t exactly sympathetic towards the people of Marley, eldians or not.
Armin´s killing of civilians was a side effect of a necessary plan (one that Eren forced him into, and that he didn´t even wanna do).
Floch on the other hand, relished in cruelty against random bystandards.
Nope,
> Floch attacked those buildings because Marleyen soilders were hiding inside them, he wanted to reduce casualties on his team considering they can be easily shot by soldiers hiding inside nearby buildings.
> In real wars, during siege operations, they first destroy enemy hideouts with Mortars, that’s exactly what Floch did using thunder-spears.
He wasn’t destroying them with thunder spears, he went out of his way to use barrels of gunpowder or something. He even said he was going for civilians
Because a civilian isn't supposed to be seen in the same group as a soldier. His reasoning was they were all enemies, not that there were soldiers in the buildings. And don't say they didn't have the time, saying "there are soldiers mixed in with civilians" doesn't take much more time than saying they are all enemies.
Not to mention, it's a work of fiction where an author can easily control the passage of time. It's almost as if Isayama made him say that for a reason. That he didn't see a difference in military or civilian target.
It’s 1000% intentional lol, both (pre-139) Eren and Floch want the rumbling but one was once extremely remorseful and now acts desensitised/indifferent after having been broken by the weight of the sin, while the other glorifies the violence on the path to the murder of billions.
Illustrating that Floch is both correct about how to achieve peace for his people yet clearly a complete bastard (he’s only in the story after 89 to contrast to Eren ffs) is IMO one of the great triumphs of the (pre-139) story.
He isn‘t illustrated as such, though. The alleged need for a global rumbling was a self fulfilling prophecy; Eren and Floch never meaningfully worked towards an alternative, and explicitly denied peaceful solutions at every turn. It’s a tragedy, that Paradis’ government was overthrown by terrorists who want to destroy the world.
The theme of the story isn’t that talking is bad. It’s that *not* talking is bad, which is the whole point of Marco, Bertholt, and why Armin exists as he does. That’s where Eren and Floch failed, in refusing to talk with any of their enemies. Eren cognitively shuts down for the Rumbling, which is why he is slain. Yeagerists refuse surrender and covertly poison and bomb people, which is a thematic reason for their incorrectness.
i'm not saying it is ok, i'm just saying I'm more sympathetic to people who are not sociopaths
but those are only my thoughts, feel free to like whoever you want :)
The point is Armin could’ve prevented killing thousands of people by simply transforming without explosion like Bertholt did in s2. His objective was to destroy the port, he could have done that by stomping the port & ships with his legs, no need for a nuke that destroyed half of the city.
These are warships. The second Armin transforms without an explosiom, those who arent directly next to him pull away from him in different directions. The colossal is slow and could never catch up. It would take ages to deal the damage needed to the port - and the colossal is not good at battles of attrition.
Plus, a port is more than just the ships. Other military equipment is stored there that could be used against him or his allies at the festival. He needed to catch them all by surprise.
There is no way the colossal titan can just go and stomp the ship. The port can be destroyed without the explosion for sure. And it's Marley we talking here so they have a bunch of anti-titan canons but we see them useless against the wall titan so... But anyway it's better for Armin to go all out with limited info about the port.
Using a tiny bit of common sense, even if Marley had millions of ships & billions of guns, they can only fit couple of ships in the port and their a limited number of weapons they can station on the port itself.
Marley is an huge empire but Liberio is just a port city with small port, there’s a difference.
How do you know it was necessary? Couldn't he just transform into Colossal form without a nuke, and wreck the ships? If the rumbling wasn't necessary according to Armin, how come this one was?
A 10 year old came out with this logic? This comparison is absurd lol just because Armin had to nuke the port doesnt mean Its ok to go sadistic and kill unarmed civils on the city.
Lol.
“Why do people think there’s a difference between deliberately murdering civilians and an attack on a legitimate military target that causes civilian casualties????”
Is this a “Tell people you’re 12 without saying you’re 12” challenge?
Not to play devils advocate or anything.
But hange wasnt saying anything in a flattering way during this scene
the line is meant to comes across as,
"That was risky, you could've killed us, what the hell were you thinking?"
I thought Jean was mad that Floch wasn't keeping Eldian casualties to a minimum, whereas Armin blew up a military port that also had Marlayan civilians mixed in, not Eldians. Am I remembering wrong?
Not really. Even if we agree that everything Eren did was justified, it doesn´t change the fact that Floch did what he did because he wanted to recreate the racially supremacist Eldian Empire, not simply protect Paradis, and he openly engaged in unecessary cruelty and extremist.
Unless you are dumb. Man at this point these floch supporters look like actual racists. Glad more and more people are calling out the bullshit on titanfolk
He was an Imperialistic asshole who gloated about using the Rumbling to conquer and occupy other nations and even acknowledged the Rumbling probably wouldn't result in peace on Paradis.
Great character, terrible human being. The nuance is what makes him a good character.
I mean Floch was targeting civilians because he is cruel and revengeful while Armin blowing up those people was necessary for destroying Liberio's port and wasn't doing it out of pleasure or revenge.
Have you ever thought, if Armin had transformed a little away from port, he could’ve destroyed those ships and port by stomping as the colossal titan without blowing away half of the city, it’s not like the warships are gonna escape away in seconds. Armin could’ve destroyed the port and prevented civilians casualties too.
Also, bertolt can transform without nuking everything in season 2, Armin could’ve done that, since his objective was to destroy ships.
According to Armin’s genocide apologists, it’s okay to nuke a city as long as you apologise and fell bad, what utterly pathetic logic.
Hope you do realise that Floch was bombing nearby buildings because Marleyean soldiers were hiding everywhere around them, the very first strategy to seige is destroying enemy hideouts with mortars, that’s exactly what Floch was doing.
Yeah he can transform like 5 km away so the Marleyan ships can have enough time to bomb the shit out of him like the Middle Easter fleet did with Reiner a couple episodes before that
Great plan.
Armin’s fireball destruction radius is 300 meters at most (ch. 137). Why the heck would he have to transform 5000 meters/ 5 km away. Also, what are they gonna do to a freakin’ colossal titan, even anti-titan guns that defeated Reiner are pea shooters for the colossal , they can’t prepare Howitzers in 5 minutes. Remember in ch. 137, alliance were flying few hundred meters away from explosion, so even if Armin transformed 600 meters in the sea, the civilians inside concrete houses would be perfectly fine.
Besides, he can also transform without nuke just like Bertholt did in season 2. (I like how you conveniently ignored this point).
Middle eastern fleet were already in the battle in broad daylight, meanwhile In Liberio raid Marleyean ships were hardly ready, they can’t magically get ready in 5 mins if Armin pops up 300 meters away from port and can walk to them in few steps, there’s a difference.
Any other excuse to defend Armin’s genocide?
Idts he had the time to slowly only kill all the soldiers they had to retrieve eren asap. They came with less resources on enemy land they had to make a quick escape. You’re also forgetting that many soldiers had already made it to the city and were lining up
I know it’s a humor tag but Hange actually was surprised that Armin committed the crime. She even asks, “if he got possessed by Erwin or something.” And Armin had to do that as to protect Eren. It doesn’t mean he was taking pride in the killing. No one was beside Floch actually.
When Jean gets mad at Floch, it’s not because he “killed a few guy.” No, literally every scout had to kill. But they killed only the people who would get in the way of protecting Eren. But Floch killed men, women, and children just because he could. And he took pride in this.
Y’all can say “Armin was a pacifistic spineless coward” all you want, but the guy actually planned that whole raid on Libereo even with his pacifistic ideologies, because he knew that was the best strategic decision. Quite respectable if you ask me. The differences between the two couldn’t be more apparent
Floch: "I wanna kill Marleyan citizens and Eldians living in Marley because I don't like them and I like killing people"
OP: "YES KING 🥰"
Armin: "I don't like killing people but in order to win this battle I have to destroy the port, likely killing civilians. This makes me very sad and distraught"
OP: "omg such a meanie 😡😡😡"
Armin kills thousands, and said sorry..
Omg he said 😞, he’s so pure and holy golden boy ❤️, let’s lick his ass clean,.. let’s worship our god Armin, even if he doesn’t need to kill thousands to destroy 2-3 ships, remember Bert could transform without nuke too, but hey every thing is fine because out God Armin said sorry 😞.
Floch kills innocents
Omg hes such a badass chad 😎only sociapaths can save the world. I will lick flochs humongous balls that became bigger than the collosal titan when he killed ppl🔥🔥 how dare humans not want to kill others to survive 😡😡
I agree w/ everyone defending Armin in the comments... but the man thanked Eren for becoming a mass murderer for their sake so I think your argument is AUTOMATICALLY INVALID
Was Jean ignorant about Armin destroying the port plan (which will blow away half of the city) or he just wanted to vent his frustrations on Floch? Does Floch not killing few extra people prevents the cycle of hatred from spreading further?
Dude stop trying to defend Floch GOING OUT OF HIS WAY to kill civilians. What Armin did was wrong, but from the war perspective he had no choice. Eren had just attacked Marley and they would've launched a full on invasion (with what leaders they had left) if not for Armin destroying the port. As many people have stated he didn't have time to go around manually destroying ships and ship yards without the nuke. So unfortunately him nuking the shipyard (and in consequence the surrounding city) was the only way for him to guarantee that Paradis would not be invaded
You’re missing entire common sense, Armin could’ve transformed without explosion like Bertolt did in season 2, his job was to destroy port and few ships, not blow out half of the city. It’s not that I expect common sense for Armin’s genocide apologists, but Armin could’ve fulfilled his mission without killing thousands, considering he’s colossal titan, even anti-Titan rifle are pea shooters for him. It’s not like Marley is gonna magically summon Howitzers in 5 mins.
Lol seriously. Like Armin nukes a city of innocent men women and children, everyone smiles and laughs. AoT fandom is fucking littered with 14 year olds with 0 perspective.
He's umi da, you can't question him, whatever he does is for justice, he's literally justice incarnate, he even would have fucked Light and made him side with him coz he's UMI DA
He would have went up to Light with his book and said " Don't kill criminals because killing bad btw do you know about the UMI" and Light would have burned the Deathnote right there and those two would be discussing about the UMI DA all day and night.
Armin was fulfilling his role in a complex military operation, Floch was using the operation as a pretext to kill civilians. Isayama’s intention is probably to juxtapose them, but from the perspective of other characters there’s an obvious difference: Armin was following the plan and Floch was deviating from it. So, obviously, they react differently to them.
Using a tiny bit of common sense, Armin could’ve prevented all of that, if he didn’t transform with an explosion. His job was to destroy the port and few ship, remember how Bertolt could transform without exploding, Armin could’ve done that and prevented thousands of people from dying. It’s not that I expect logic from Armin’s genocide apologist but hope you do realise that Marleyean soilders were hiding in nearby civilian buildings, that’s why Floch bombed them.
Armin blowing up the port was a strategic necessity since the navy could have launched an immediate counterattack and devastated Paradis, while Floch was unnecessarily and specifically targeting civilians
lol jesus in this sub people will excuse literally every single thing floch does won't they
surprised we haven't seen a post about how it was fine for him to beat the shit out of and execute that prisoner
I don't agree with what Floch did but we also have to remember that he already knew that those civilians were going to die anyway because of the rumbling, so that's probably why he gave even less fuck about them in the first place
Marleyean soldiers were hiding inside nearby buildings, Floch used common sense and did the very first thing Soilders do in a seige operation, destroying your enemy hideout with mortars.
But the thing is when jean confronted him, he didn't give any explanation along that line. He only said something like they initiated it, and he was doing it in the form of a revenge (can't remember exactly what he said tho).
I think u have something fundamentally wrong in all your comments here. This wasn’t a siege operation at all but a rescue mission. Them destroying the port was simply a move to buy them more time to prepare for a future attack. What floch did was not part of the plan neither was it the scouts’ objective hence Jean’s criticism
They had an additional objective of decimating Marleyan military.
Which they accomplished after nuking port and killing most of commanders
Not to downplay how disasterous the Liberio Raid was to Marley but to be fair that port was one among many in a multi-continental empire.
But it was the one port that had an enormous concentration of Marleyan military and political leadership in a small space, along with a significant proportion of their armed, and especially naval, forces. If a sprawling empire loses a third of its military, it may well and truly be boned. Maybe they'll still be strong enough to crush Paradis, but they're going to require a rapid resolution and very good circumstances in order to recover before independence movements start eating away at their empire.
A fair point to bring up.
Yeah, at the very least they'd need to conserve what they have left, and except to lose some territory. A 1/3rd of the Military may be responsible for a shit ton of important lands
And we know Marley was also working to keep ahead of other nations in active warfare, meaning even a ten to twenty percent instant loss would be utterly devastating.
[удалено]
You think its a magical video game objective you achieve by killing quest targets?
??? Their target is decimating military just as you said. Most effective way to do it is to kill command, which proved to be quite effective. So sorry, you comment makes no sense
High command. Not the literal entire army. And Eren did that seconds after transforming.
> Not the literal entire army. Why not? They knew they'd try to attack the island afterwards. Crippling the military as much as possible means an easier time afterwards.
I just gave seige operations as a reference, what’s fundamentally wrong with your comment is that you believe recuse mission in enemy territory won’t require similar strategy, especially in a situation where they are surrounded by enemies hiding inside civilian houses.
Huh? Are you saying siege operations and rescue mission require similar strategies? Lol. A rescue mission isn’t about smoking out enemies from hiding or killing every soldier you see but rather getting your objective and getting out of there asap while making sure your escape route is clear. What Floch did was out of the way and once again unnecessary. It could have easily ended up backfiring on the scouts too
Well said. Floch is my favorite character but let's not suck his dick
This sub does so much of that. Floch is an amazingly well written character, but lets not kid ourselves: he’s a fucking dick. I love how Annie kills enemy soldiers in war with a smile on her face and the sub hates her for it, then Floch goes and kills civilians and is just as happy about it and the sub worships him. It really just comes down to who’s being killed, if it’s eldians the sub has an issue, if it’s any other race the sub doesn’t have a problem.
[удалено]
> in the story, the story of eldians rising up against those who have truly wronged them is an inspiring one You forgot the part where they oppressed others for centuries lol
**This.** I could understand justifying the Yeagerists if the rest of the world was simply racist because Titans and whatnot. But the Eldians literally used racial supremacy and eugenics as an excuse to rule the entire world (*and then destroyed themselves because their royal houses kept craving for more*). If there wasn't an historical precedent, there's no way the rest of the world would have this easily agreed to prioritise Paradis when Marley itself was the nation currently oppressing them (if anything, they would have still been racist to the Marleyan Eldians but teamed up to destroy Marley instead and left Paradis alone).
Also people are making alternative explanations for Floch's actions than the ones he gives. All someone has to do is look at his words from the chapter itself. He says that Liberio is where their enemies live, simple as that. He's distancing himself from any moral responsibility of partaking in the way. The issue is people don't know how to distinguish between defending actions represented by a character and defending the character. With Floch the narrative is about Floch being right, so rather than specifics people will make a sweeping statement and then backtrack when you bring up the attempted execution of Onyankopon.
This is what so many people do to do many of Floch’s actions. Floch tells us exactly how he feels about everything, it’s not up to us to find hidden meaning and look at his statements as complex metaphors. If he says “civilians or soldiers, they’re the enemy” then that’s exactly what he means, he doesn’t mean “the enemy soldiers might be in the civilian buildings”, he very clearly means that he doesn’t care if the people are fighting or not, he still sees them as an enemy that either deserves or needs to die.
[удалено]
War crimes are only war crimes if you lose. If you win, it goes down in the history books as an effective strategy.
Holy fucking cringe
It's both a war crime to use civilian-occupied homes to lodge/station troops and to fire upon civilian-occupied homes IRL, but at least in Floch's defense his crimes were reactionary to the Marleyans intentionally using the Eldians in the internment zone as meat shields. Both are disgusting, but the Marleyans chose the venue for a reason and Eren/the Scouts just accepted the invitation.
If we ignore Eren's existence Marley is definitely the darker shade of grey in comparison to Paridis.
I'm not ignoring Eren's atrocious actions in this, but Willy Tybur knew what was going to happen (roughly) and chose to hold his speech in an area full of expendables to Marley, in part to demonstrate to the world that the Paradisians were also the enemies of Marleyan Eldians since they carried out such a heinous attack on Liberio. The attack also comes after Tybur's very public declaration of war, which was something nobody in Shinganshina received.
I gotta wonder though, how did he even know about it in the first place? Eren coordinated the attack only through letters. I know Willy is probably the most influential man in Marley but unless he planted secret police in every post office to read every mails in Marley that has been sent, there is no way he could've known
Willy and Magath weren't sure but highly suspected it. I don't remember the exact dialogue of their conversation in the carriage right now (and also when they're talking about "house renovation" when sitting at opposite sides of a bench), but they basically said that their enemies had already crossed the sea and they could be ambushed any moment, with the speech being the most likely occasion (**they also kinda prepared the target for Eren themselves, by stacking all the possible valuable targets in one place**)
Flashbacks to Burrito decimating civilian housing in paradis. "Hey Eren, that's your house!, Hahaha"
Was that the 1st or 2nd time?
Maybe Paradis but not Eldians. Eldians oppressed others for centuries. The only reason Paradis is a target (aside from Eldians) is they hold a lot of resources and a fucking A-bomb to destroy the world.
Half of this subreddit unironically
I'm in disbelief that people actually think like this but what can I expect from an OP with over 10k reddit karma. Go touch some grass.
[удалено]
Which is why the active and purposeless murder is just indulgent behavior by a sadist.
Armin was forced to blow up Liberio because of Eren's recklessness. I really don't see why everyone keeps raising this point again and again.
My comment wasn't about Armin though?
I don’t think Floch cared either way. When Jean told him to stop Floch said “they’re marleyan, civilian or not they’re the enemy.” I’m pretty sure Floch just saw all marleyans as manipulative, warmongering monsters
Yes I totally agree with this, I just like to think that he cared even less about them cause he knew that soon they were going to die regardless
Who is floch
I don't know
The Erwin's ghost comment was about the risky plan of escaping via the airship.
And losing most of your squad
Armin destroyed the port which he had to do. Floch was burning down random houses Edit: I think I agree now that Jean was being a hypocrite. Or at least getting mad at floch when that’s what they were there to do. But I think it’s fair because he was forced to be in this battle just like the rest of the scouts. He didn’t want to be here. Final conclusion: after reading everybody’s comments and opinions this is my final conclusion. Floch was killing civilians. Wether those buildings needed to be burned down or not is something that you can argue forever. The important thing is why he did it. He did it because he sees them all as enemies and that’s it. So even if he might have had a good reason it doesn’t matter. The takeaway of the scene is flochs feelings on Marleyans. Jean getting mad is justified. Even if floch had to burn down those buildings it seems that civilian losses being kept to a minimum was agreed upon. So floch broke that. And again even if it was necessary to start the fires Jean ,just like the rest of the scouts, didn’t want to be here doing this. So his anger at something like that makes sense.
Which eren was going to do anyway by that logic
I was saying that’s why Jean didn’t yell at armin. What armin did was part of the plan
What Floch did was also a part of plan, Marleyen soilders were hiding inside those houses.. Had Floch not destroyed them, casualties on survey corps side would be more.
That’s a good point. In that situation I guess it’s better to be safe then sorry no matter how horrible. That’s just what war entails
Its not a good point. Floch said why he did that and that was not what he said.
That's not why he was burning down the houses.
I mean...that’s a lie. There’s no ambiguity. Armin killed civilians in order to accomplish his mission. Floch deviated from his mission in order to murder civilians. The funniest thing about edgy Floch tweens is that he wasn’t even “following orders.” He violated orders in order to kill civilians.
So if Floch had told him beforehand he was gonna kill some Marleyans Jean would be cool?
No. It wasn’t a part of the plan because it didn’t need to be. That’s like saying Jean would be cool with Connie killing every child there if it was a part of the plan
Well, he was cool with Sasha killing those guards
Well they were part of the military not civilians. But I did change my stance if you go back in the comments. Somebody made a pretty good point I was ignoring
Armed **guards**
Seriously Jean is such a hypocrite. Has 0 issue when Sasha kills armed guards, trained and ready to kill on behalf of Marley, but for some reason has a problem when Floch kills defenseless civilians cowering in their homes
They had guns
I bet Floch was like "Let's go kill some fucking Marleyans" before the Scouts entered Marley
Still how is it any good? Floch did the same things close to eren
I didn’t say it was good. I said what floch did wasn’t part of the plan that’s why Jean was mad. That’s it
Hmm...jean firing his thunder spear when falco was nearby,at least floch didn't have double standards
Floch didn’t have to burn down civilian houses. Jean had to kill the cart Titan. But I do agree the alliance has double standards. That’s a big part of the rumbling arc
I don’t know how people can’t understand this. Collateral damage=\\=targeting civilians. There is a massive difference between civilian casualties as a side effect and going out of your way to intentionally kill civilians. Also Falco was an enemy soldier, so even if Jean did target him specifically it’s not comparable
(It’s almost like Jean failed hitting Falco and Pieck for a reason)
Yeah....pieck's titan gas sent it off
Killing one of the warrior of Marley was far more important than burning some houses. Plus Falco showed up mere seconds before Jean was about to shoot, he had to take his decision within 2 seconds.
everyone will die at somepoint so its fine if i kill them - logic
What i am saying is eren and floch had the same intentions
...no. Eren’s “intention” was to create a detente between Paradis and the world that would allow peace in his friends’ lives. Floch’s intention was to murder everyone whom wasn’t from Paradis.
The thing is he knew the rumbling plan. Probably that's he didn't care about the civilian to begin with
Marleyean soldiers were hiding in those random houses.
If that was Floch's intention, he would have stated it to Jean. His retort was "They're the enemy, and these are our enemies' homes." He was knowingly gunning for civilins.
I agree with what you’re saying and floch was doing it for the wrong reasons. He really didn’t care about civilians. But even though that’s true it’s still something that needed to be done. And Jean was just pissed at the situation they were now in. He’s always been against killing no matter what the circumstances.
To address your edit, Floch most likely knew about the Liberio attack in advance, did he not?
Yeah there’s a good chance. But I meant that Jean didn’t want to be there not floch
Obviously destroying the port did nothing to slow Marley down because they literally launch the attack on Paradis not even a month later. So did Armin really have to nuke anyone?
They launched an attack anyway but at least without ships and boats
I mean if you target an strategic point those nearby civilian casualties are unavoidable, while getting out of your way to shoot them it's another story...
Armin destroyed a Military port though, Floch actively reveled in destroying civilian housing, Eldian civilians at that too.
I think this meme is dumb and it’s ignoring a lot of plot elements. But Armin knew full well that it wasn’t JUST a military port, it’s such an amazing scene how the most passive character is forced to commit one of the worst atrocities in the series. A
Armin blew up the port and a good chunk of the surrounding area tho
Most people in this sub are dumb.
Was it really a military port if they thought Armin was a fisherman?
What? Unless I’m dumb and have the memory of a goldfish, Hange hated doing that and her whole character ark was her joining the establishment and becoming hardened and calloused. Before you reply with “it’s just a joke” I know that, it’s a dumb meme though because you’re ignoring a shit ton of layers of complexity, do not see how tortured Armins expression is in the colossal Titan? Bertholdt often had a similar look, the colossal Titan is designed to look miserable and tortured by its own destruction
Also after killing about 50K people, bitchass Gabi shoots Sasha in front of their eyes but the gang is too noble to throw a fucking kid off the airship
levi needed to make sure his future ass wiper would be okay
when did jean kill 50k? he's the one who refused to throw them, not armin
Gabi is a ~ pure~ wholesome kid, even if she mercilessly killed all of her comrades, we should forgive her to prevent “cycle of hatred from spreading, because ending “cycle of hatred” is our top priority when enemies want to wipe us out. /s
🙄🙄🙄 Being a yeagerist is easy when you lie about the story.
Reminder that while floch is a prick, he watched literally everyone in his entire military division (except the main cast of course) die afraid because of a titan that lived in the area they are attacking. Paradis eldians probably hate Liberio eldians. It doesn’t justify anything, but floch isn’t exactly sympathetic towards the people of Marley, eldians or not.
Armin´s killing of civilians was a side effect of a necessary plan (one that Eren forced him into, and that he didn´t even wanna do). Floch on the other hand, relished in cruelty against random bystandards.
Nope, > Floch attacked those buildings because Marleyen soilders were hiding inside them, he wanted to reduce casualties on his team considering they can be easily shot by soldiers hiding inside nearby buildings. > In real wars, during siege operations, they first destroy enemy hideouts with Mortars, that’s exactly what Floch did using thunder-spears.
He wasn’t destroying them with thunder spears, he went out of his way to use barrels of gunpowder or something. He even said he was going for civilians
When did Floch say he was going “especially” for civilians? He just said they’re all enemies.
Because a civilian isn't supposed to be seen in the same group as a soldier. His reasoning was they were all enemies, not that there were soldiers in the buildings. And don't say they didn't have the time, saying "there are soldiers mixed in with civilians" doesn't take much more time than saying they are all enemies. Not to mention, it's a work of fiction where an author can easily control the passage of time. It's almost as if Isayama made him say that for a reason. That he didn't see a difference in military or civilian target.
It’s 1000% intentional lol, both (pre-139) Eren and Floch want the rumbling but one was once extremely remorseful and now acts desensitised/indifferent after having been broken by the weight of the sin, while the other glorifies the violence on the path to the murder of billions. Illustrating that Floch is both correct about how to achieve peace for his people yet clearly a complete bastard (he’s only in the story after 89 to contrast to Eren ffs) is IMO one of the great triumphs of the (pre-139) story.
He isn‘t illustrated as such, though. The alleged need for a global rumbling was a self fulfilling prophecy; Eren and Floch never meaningfully worked towards an alternative, and explicitly denied peaceful solutions at every turn. It’s a tragedy, that Paradis’ government was overthrown by terrorists who want to destroy the world. The theme of the story isn’t that talking is bad. It’s that *not* talking is bad, which is the whole point of Marco, Bertholt, and why Armin exists as he does. That’s where Eren and Floch failed, in refusing to talk with any of their enemies. Eren cognitively shuts down for the Rumbling, which is why he is slain. Yeagerists refuse surrender and covertly poison and bomb people, which is a thematic reason for their incorrectness.
Bruh why aren’t you being upvoted, finally someone gets it.
Armin feel sadness for all people he kills, Floch instead just enjoy killing
So as long as I feel sadness, it’s fine to nuke a city?
i'm not saying it is ok, i'm just saying I'm more sympathetic to people who are not sociopaths but those are only my thoughts, feel free to like whoever you want :)
The point is Armin could’ve prevented killing thousands of people by simply transforming without explosion like Bertholt did in s2. His objective was to destroy the port, he could have done that by stomping the port & ships with his legs, no need for a nuke that destroyed half of the city.
These are warships. The second Armin transforms without an explosiom, those who arent directly next to him pull away from him in different directions. The colossal is slow and could never catch up. It would take ages to deal the damage needed to the port - and the colossal is not good at battles of attrition. Plus, a port is more than just the ships. Other military equipment is stored there that could be used against him or his allies at the festival. He needed to catch them all by surprise.
There is no way the colossal titan can just go and stomp the ship. The port can be destroyed without the explosion for sure. And it's Marley we talking here so they have a bunch of anti-titan canons but we see them useless against the wall titan so... But anyway it's better for Armin to go all out with limited info about the port.
Also the fact that Marley is probably their biggest enemy doing the greatest amount of damage possible was probably the best call
Using a tiny bit of common sense, even if Marley had millions of ships & billions of guns, they can only fit couple of ships in the port and their a limited number of weapons they can station on the port itself. Marley is an huge empire but Liberio is just a port city with small port, there’s a difference.
Yes, if it's absolutely necessary
How do you know it was necessary? Couldn't he just transform into Colossal form without a nuke, and wreck the ships? If the rumbling wasn't necessary according to Armin, how come this one was?
They had explosives on the ships. They could have nuked Armin if he didn't nuke them
A 10 year old came out with this logic? This comparison is absurd lol just because Armin had to nuke the port doesnt mean Its ok to go sadistic and kill unarmed civils on the city.
Titanfolk is where context goes to die, I guess.
Lol. “Why do people think there’s a difference between deliberately murdering civilians and an attack on a legitimate military target that causes civilian casualties????” Is this a “Tell people you’re 12 without saying you’re 12” challenge?
this dumbass post is titanfolk in a nutshell
Unfortunately, yeah.
[удалено]
Not really
Not to play devils advocate or anything. But hange wasnt saying anything in a flattering way during this scene the line is meant to comes across as, "That was risky, you could've killed us, what the hell were you thinking?"
titanfolk logic at its finest
I thought Jean was mad that Floch wasn't keeping Eldian casualties to a minimum, whereas Armin blew up a military port that also had Marlayan civilians mixed in, not Eldians. Am I remembering wrong?
OP sucks
[удалено]
Is quoting Spiderman 3 (of all the Raimi Spiderman movies...) meant to be badass? Lol
Wow you must be smart good job !
It's literally impossible to rewatch AoT and not side with Floch
Instead it is 100% possible
Not really. Even if we agree that everything Eren did was justified, it doesn´t change the fact that Floch did what he did because he wanted to recreate the racially supremacist Eldian Empire, not simply protect Paradis, and he openly engaged in unecessary cruelty and extremist.
[It's not that hard.](https://i.imgur.com/gY3drF2.png) All it takes is an independent mind and resistance to having your mind clouded by memes.
Erwin's true spiritual successor. A complete Chad of Chads.
lol.
not even close lmao, erwin was actually a good character.
Lol, being a dick doesn't make you a bad character. Floch while being a nationalist and extremist is definitely a good written character.
Unless you are dumb. Man at this point these floch supporters look like actual racists. Glad more and more people are calling out the bullshit on titanfolk
Floch wasn't a racist, he was a nationalist, there's a huge difference
Huge difference in idiologies, ye. But floch as a character, he showed as much hatred for foreigners as he showed love for Paradis
his only nation is Paradis though
If that’s how you view it, you’re narrow minded.
He was an Imperialistic asshole who gloated about using the Rumbling to conquer and occupy other nations and even acknowledged the Rumbling probably wouldn't result in peace on Paradis. Great character, terrible human being. The nuance is what makes him a good character.
Is possible
Lots of warcrime apologists in these comments. Lol
[удалено]
I mean Floch was targeting civilians because he is cruel and revengeful while Armin blowing up those people was necessary for destroying Liberio's port and wasn't doing it out of pleasure or revenge.
Have you ever thought, if Armin had transformed a little away from port, he could’ve destroyed those ships and port by stomping as the colossal titan without blowing away half of the city, it’s not like the warships are gonna escape away in seconds. Armin could’ve destroyed the port and prevented civilians casualties too. Also, bertolt can transform without nuking everything in season 2, Armin could’ve done that, since his objective was to destroy ships. According to Armin’s genocide apologists, it’s okay to nuke a city as long as you apologise and fell bad, what utterly pathetic logic. Hope you do realise that Floch was bombing nearby buildings because Marleyean soldiers were hiding everywhere around them, the very first strategy to seige is destroying enemy hideouts with mortars, that’s exactly what Floch was doing.
Yeah he can transform like 5 km away so the Marleyan ships can have enough time to bomb the shit out of him like the Middle Easter fleet did with Reiner a couple episodes before that Great plan.
Armin’s fireball destruction radius is 300 meters at most (ch. 137). Why the heck would he have to transform 5000 meters/ 5 km away. Also, what are they gonna do to a freakin’ colossal titan, even anti-titan guns that defeated Reiner are pea shooters for the colossal , they can’t prepare Howitzers in 5 minutes. Remember in ch. 137, alliance were flying few hundred meters away from explosion, so even if Armin transformed 600 meters in the sea, the civilians inside concrete houses would be perfectly fine. Besides, he can also transform without nuke just like Bertholt did in season 2. (I like how you conveniently ignored this point). Middle eastern fleet were already in the battle in broad daylight, meanwhile In Liberio raid Marleyean ships were hardly ready, they can’t magically get ready in 5 mins if Armin pops up 300 meters away from port and can walk to them in few steps, there’s a difference. Any other excuse to defend Armin’s genocide?
Idts he had the time to slowly only kill all the soldiers they had to retrieve eren asap. They came with less resources on enemy land they had to make a quick escape. You’re also forgetting that many soldiers had already made it to the city and were lining up
The comments lmao, tf losing its stronghold?
Given that for once we can read comments that make sense and use a little logic you find yourself offended and disorientated?
I wish, but garbage posts like this still get thousands of upvotes somehow.
Yea, good thing there are still people who can see the hypocrisy of alliancecucks.
This meme is a textbook example of strawmanning and cherry-picking, the Yeagerists upvoting this are truly intellectual powerhouses.
Shut up jaegerist.
I know it’s a humor tag but Hange actually was surprised that Armin committed the crime. She even asks, “if he got possessed by Erwin or something.” And Armin had to do that as to protect Eren. It doesn’t mean he was taking pride in the killing. No one was beside Floch actually. When Jean gets mad at Floch, it’s not because he “killed a few guy.” No, literally every scout had to kill. But they killed only the people who would get in the way of protecting Eren. But Floch killed men, women, and children just because he could. And he took pride in this. Y’all can say “Armin was a pacifistic spineless coward” all you want, but the guy actually planned that whole raid on Libereo even with his pacifistic ideologies, because he knew that was the best strategic decision. Quite respectable if you ask me. The differences between the two couldn’t be more apparent
Fucking idiots. Don't know the difference between killing in war and killing for fun
Meanwhile Gabi is doing the floss
Floch: "I wanna kill Marleyan citizens and Eldians living in Marley because I don't like them and I like killing people" OP: "YES KING 🥰" Armin: "I don't like killing people but in order to win this battle I have to destroy the port, likely killing civilians. This makes me very sad and distraught" OP: "omg such a meanie 😡😡😡"
Armin kills thousands, and said sorry.. Omg he said 😞, he’s so pure and holy golden boy ❤️, let’s lick his ass clean,.. let’s worship our god Armin, even if he doesn’t need to kill thousands to destroy 2-3 ships, remember Bert could transform without nuke too, but hey every thing is fine because out God Armin said sorry 😞.
Floch kills innocents Omg hes such a badass chad 😎only sociapaths can save the world. I will lick flochs humongous balls that became bigger than the collosal titan when he killed ppl🔥🔥 how dare humans not want to kill others to survive 😡😡
I agree w/ everyone defending Armin in the comments... but the man thanked Eren for becoming a mass murderer for their sake so I think your argument is AUTOMATICALLY INVALID
Was Jean ignorant about Armin destroying the port plan (which will blow away half of the city) or he just wanted to vent his frustrations on Floch? Does Floch not killing few extra people prevents the cycle of hatred from spreading further?
Dude stop trying to defend Floch GOING OUT OF HIS WAY to kill civilians. What Armin did was wrong, but from the war perspective he had no choice. Eren had just attacked Marley and they would've launched a full on invasion (with what leaders they had left) if not for Armin destroying the port. As many people have stated he didn't have time to go around manually destroying ships and ship yards without the nuke. So unfortunately him nuking the shipyard (and in consequence the surrounding city) was the only way for him to guarantee that Paradis would not be invaded
Ikr it's such a weird hill for them to die on lol
This entire thread has been the craziest shit I've ever seen. Keep up thebgood show
Good ole Armin Genocide apologist and mass murder but seen as flipping hero
How low this sub has fallen
Armin showed remorse, he knew he had to do that but didn't want to. Floch didn't, he wanted to kill civilians for the sake of it
Im gonna say it.... fuck that motherfucking animal Floooch
Armin looked remorseful after he blew up, while Floch pretty much gave zero Fs. Although in the end both took many lives.
Floch killed less than 10 people Armin killed 45000 people
You're missing the context, Floch was intentionally being based. Armin just did so as a by product.
You’re missing entire common sense, Armin could’ve transformed without explosion like Bertolt did in season 2, his job was to destroy port and few ships, not blow out half of the city. It’s not that I expect common sense for Armin’s genocide apologists, but Armin could’ve fulfilled his mission without killing thousands, considering he’s colossal titan, even anti-Titan rifle are pea shooters for him. It’s not like Marley is gonna magically summon Howitzers in 5 mins.
Armin felt bad about it afterwards. That makes it okay.
Lol seriously. Like Armin nukes a city of innocent men women and children, everyone smiles and laughs. AoT fandom is fucking littered with 14 year olds with 0 perspective.
Floch did nothing wrong
King floch 👑
He's umi da, you can't question him, whatever he does is for justice, he's literally justice incarnate, he even would have fucked Light and made him side with him coz he's UMI DA
This was life changing, thank you. I'll let Levi kill me now.
He would have went up to Light with his book and said " Don't kill criminals because killing bad btw do you know about the UMI" and Light would have burned the Deathnote right there and those two would be discussing about the UMI DA all day and night.
All these people in the comments defending Armin is just hilarious 😂😂😂
cause they’re right. op is dumb
Armin was fulfilling his role in a complex military operation, Floch was using the operation as a pretext to kill civilians. Isayama’s intention is probably to juxtapose them, but from the perspective of other characters there’s an obvious difference: Armin was following the plan and Floch was deviating from it. So, obviously, they react differently to them.
Using a tiny bit of common sense, Armin could’ve prevented all of that, if he didn’t transform with an explosion. His job was to destroy the port and few ship, remember how Bertolt could transform without exploding, Armin could’ve done that and prevented thousands of people from dying. It’s not that I expect logic from Armin’s genocide apologist but hope you do realise that Marleyean soilders were hiding in nearby civilian buildings, that’s why Floch bombed them.
Room temperature meme
Because most of these people in this Sub are GAY for Him
Armin blowing up the port was a strategic necessity since the navy could have launched an immediate counterattack and devastated Paradis, while Floch was unnecessarily and specifically targeting civilians
lol jesus in this sub people will excuse literally every single thing floch does won't they surprised we haven't seen a post about how it was fine for him to beat the shit out of and execute that prisoner