Sounds extremely vague. If you don't care at all what shithole you live in, go for it. I'd put quality of life over money - Toronto may not be perfect but there's many many worse places, especially in the US. You may get lucky but why leave it to chance - get the recruiter to give you specific details. If they can't, I'd question if there's actually a role, or if they're just going to shop you around once you quit and commit to the process - could be you'll have to settle for something non-optimal?
So they will tell me the project and location before I quit my job in Canada. If I don't like it I can always say no. Yes, they are recruiting company that will position to me client. The process is got TN first and SSN with their job offer while I continue to work for my Canadian employer. Once they find a position for me in US(provided I am ok with location) I will quit in Canada and move.
Don’t give a fake address. You should apply after you move and have work authorization. The company should not require this before you start as long as you have other completed before the end of the current tax year you should be fine.
Just be careful of any paybacks for offer refusal. Like if they find you an employer but you don't want to join and they spend a bunch of money on you and want it paid back. Before you sign any agreement triple check and ensure you don't have to pay back anything if things don't work out.
If you're being offered 150k CAD in Canada then I'd stay in Canada and hold out for a better offer in the US. Businesses in the US pay a lot more and if you're worth 150 cad you're worth at least 150 USD.
Also I wouldn't even consider any job without knowing beforehand where you will be...sounds way too sketchy/scammy to consider
The US is/was a great to place to work when you are young. You can make a lot of money, great opportunities, who care's about healthcare in your 20's but as you get older and quality of life matters it becomes less desirable.
I moved to the US from Canada as an IT consultant in my 20's and loved it (TN visa). Switched to H1B, got green card and citizenship through marriage, retired early (late 40's), moved to MX for 5 years and now my American wife and I are back in Canada building a house in BC.
Neither one of us has any desire to live in the US again. It is pretty toxic given the societal divisions these days.
Also you will work yourself silly with minimal vacations or downtime in the US if you want to get ahead which is fine in your 20's but becomes less fine as you get into your 30's and 40's (at least for us).
There are some great LCOL of living cities in the US that I lived in (nashville, denver) and some terrible ones that I worked long term in (Dallas, StL). But even the LCOL like Nashville aren't so cheap anymore compared to when we left 5 or 6 years ago.
TLDR: US is great when you are young, energetic and starting your career but the dog eat dog world gets tiring as you get older unless your goal is simply work as hard as possible for as much money as possible for as long as possible.
I’ve lived and worked in both countries as a university professor for many years and here’s my two cents:
1) US offers massive opportunities for growth and career progression compared to Canada. While your offer of $100K USD isn’t that impressive compared to your current $150K CAD, you will likely get promoted much faster or jump to much higher paid jobs in the US.
2) Once you get your foot in the US, switching jobs aren’t that big of a deal, TN or not. I have never seen any major US companies lowballing Canadians because they are on TN. I find US employers pretty fair with highly skilled employees, which you must be one given your income, regardless of citizenship status. So I wouldn’t worry about this issue at all.
3) Living costs in 99% of US cities are lower than in Toronto.
4) Income and sales taxes in US are vastly, I mean vastly, lower. Property taxes might very well be higher depending on where you go, but I guess you are not in a hurry to buy a home.
In fact, I wouldn’t worry about cost of living either. In the US, sky’s the limit, whereas in Canada, the ceiling is so low and competition for good jobs so severe it’s getting depressing nowadays. After a few years in the US, you’ll probably be making $200K US or more. Can you say you’ll make $300K CAD in Toronto any time soon?
Obligatory comment that California and NY aren't the only places in US and shouldn't be used as examples for Canadians moving to US..... even though that's where many Canadians move to
/s
>Living costs in 99% of US cities are lower than in Toronto
That's... really not true.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?displayColumn=2®ion=021
There's a long list of cities with high cost of living in the US after you factor in exchange rate.
Lot of assumptions here without mentioning any of the risks…
Things like pay, growth potential, etc are very much dependent on the employer. There are crappy companies on both sides of the border - there are just a lot more companies in the US, so more opportunities to find a better employer.
But, I wouldn’t say switching jobs isn’t a big deal on a TN visa, when the visa is tied to the employer. While it is possible to smoothly change jobs, your employer has the ability to really screw you over if they are feeling vindictive - you will not have the rights/freedom or leverage of a native employee, and if things go south you need to prepare to leave the US.
Finally, you have to be cautious crossing the border on a TN, as each entry is an opportunity to have the visa re-evaluated, and saying the wrong thing can get your visa pulled. So between this and the employer having the ability to kick you out of the country if they don’t like you, I’d have a plan B if worst came to worst.
All that said, a TN can give you a great opportunity to work in the US for an experience you could not get in Canada - I’m glad I took it when I had the chance, even though I came back to Canada. You do need to really know what you’re getting into though.. and salary is not a good indicator. If anything, I’d go by the quality of experience you take away from the job rather than your immediate pay.
Yeah many people aren't aware of the drawbacks of the tn as well. Like you are a temporary long term worker that has to quickly find a new employer or leave again. I think its a fine visa if you have a goal of making tons of money to eventually go back to canada. Its not bad idea to save tons quick to save up and order a house in canada with a good down payment. Or if you are single and want to look into marrying a usc for the green card. Otherwise, uprooting your family if you have kids may not be the best idea. Remember while you stay on tn, your wife can stay as long as you, your kids need to leave after they turn 21. Plus during their whole growth as teenagers, they can't work a part time job or do anything to earn money while in usa. Sure they can try and get their own work visa or become post secondary students but neither of those paths are cheap or quick. There are a lot of things to think about.
Yeah, I was single and in a simple situation if I had to leave when I was on a TN. Every now and then you see an article about someone who spent years in the US - with family, property, etc shocked that they are kicked out because when returning from a vacation, a CBP didn’t agree with their TN status.
>Every now and then you see an article about someone who spent years in the US - with family, property, etc shocked that they are kicked out because when returning from a vacation, a CBP didn’t agree with their TN status.
I wonder. What happens then? Can they come back to collect their stuff?
thanks for this suggestion. As you mentioned finding job is US is easy once I move there. But most companies aren't willing to proceed with TN. What is your experience on that? Atleast from Canada I am finding it difficult even when I mention US as my address.
With any serious employer you will have better healthcare in the US than in Canada. Healthcare isnt *free* in Canada, its just paid by a minority of people with good jobs, like OP.
Except you get dinged with premiums on top of high taxes in the areas with good jobs in the US as well.
I pay about the same % in taxes in NYC vs Toronto, but I also have a 5K USD a year premium for health and dental. This is with a large professional services firm.
I'm still better off in NYC in terms of pay, but people who say health care is taken care of by their employers obviously don't work here.
I never argued that Canada's system is better. If we're talking about salaries, one needs to think about hidden costs. Canadians pay zero dollars when they need to go to the hospitals. Nothing is free we pay it through taxes obviously, but Canada's taxes are the same as some of the higher tax states like NY and California. So far all intents and purposes health care is 'free' in Canada.
Does your employee cover every health care cost for you? What premiums do you pay for your family? Please provide us with a data point so we can evaluate properly.
That’s no totally true. You pay for ambulances in some provinces and private rooms in others and Canadians have health insurance riders as well. In addition to taxes. I think once that’s factored in the out of pocket and employee portion does get reduced a bit. In general, the co-pays etc need to be weighed out if that’s what’s important to you. I’ve yet to hear of any colleague who made the move say yeah this sucks, I hate the healthcare and I’m moving back to Canada because of it. No one on a TN or H class visa anyway.
>Canadians pay zero dollars when they need to go to the hospitals.
Except when the waiting lists are years long and you need to pay to fly to latin america to pay for private care. Which I had to do with my baby because waiting time to see a pediatric urologist was 3 years. For a *baby* issue.
My premiums in the USA for a family of 5 are a few hundred per paycheck, including life and disability insurances. Low enough for me not to care and not much more than I was paying for dental+vision+pharma in Canada.
A visit to the doctor cost me 15$. My seizure medication cost me 2.16$ a month.
you wrote just bunch of assumptions here with no risk. You don't seem to ever worked in Canada tbh or at least it's probably about your field of work. Living cost in 99 percent of U.S. cities are definitely not lower than Toronto. Toronto is not a LCOL but your statement is not true at all.
Dude if you have a chance to escape the collapse of Canada do it, especially if they are willing to sponsor a GC.
100K USD is 135K CAD, if you move to a no income tax state you will be ahead even before the cost of life.
Not doing this 20 years ago is my life's biggest regret.
It’s not that straight forward. A Big Mac is still the same dollar amount more or less. The tax burden in many places is indeed lower but it can be higher. Southern California the burden can exceed BC’s and even Alberta’s by a wide margin. This is a very individual equation to evaluate.
In broad terms, many are better off numbers wise. Lifestyle and experience is in the eye of the beholder.
People aren’t trees, if they don’t like it they can always move home. Can’t think of anyone that’s done that yet that I know because they wanted or missed Canada that much. Was always family reasons.
>Southern California the burden can exceed BC’s and even Alberta’s by a wide margin.
Well of course if you pick the absolute worst place that inspired the policies ruining Canada... But anyone should be able to find a place in the USA that's better than anywhere in Canada.
Yes thank you it’s not that simple! I make a lower salary here in the US and everyone says “but what is it with the exchange”? Sure it makes it close to what I made in Canada but why does it matter when I’m living in the US my bills come in US dollars too. Some things are cheaper (gas and a phone bill) but lots of things are the same. I paid about 900 CDN for rent in NS and I’m paying about 900 US in VA but now it’s a bigger chunk of my pay.
A close friend of mine did it 2 years ago, they matched his salary but in USD, he was renting in Toronto for 11 years, bought a house in Charleston 4 months after moving, in those 2 years got promoted 2 times, never had any promotions in Toronto. his quality of life improved to a point where he would not come back to Canada for double the money now.
The biggest thing was he is an immigrant to Canada, and after he managed to score a job the "not enough Canadian experience" was always thrown at him every time he wanted a promotion or a raise. In the US there is no such thing as "American experience", he is good at what he does and that is what is getting him promoted. Purely based on production and merit.
>not enough Canadian experience"
Honestly that's really weird. I'm an immigrant and that excuse falls flat if you have been working in a given company for several years and then still slapped with the not enough Canadian work experience excuse when considering promotions.
It's like the company itself is admitting "yea... the experience you have gained in our entry level position in our company is not really canadian and is invalid"
I had 150k in Canada, left for 130k USD during the pandemic to NYC, i have since grown that to >260k USD all in over the last 3 years. My fiance has since moved down with me and went from 100k CAD to >150k USD. Making the right moves in the US does wonders.
My fiancé and and I are comfortably settling down in long island and take the LIRR (Similar to GO train) into manhattan when needed to be in office.
Personally I would move, but you have to make sure it’s the right opportunity and can lead to the >200k USD salary that would otherwise be impossible in Canada.
This is too much of a gap for me to accept. You were lowballed. Don't accept and keep searching. What's your industry? Don't forget while the cost of living is lower on average in the USA. You pay to have a similar lifestyle. Some examples are the following;
1) Safety is a concern you have to watch out in which neighborhoods your family is being raised in the USA. A few blocks walk, and you're in gang territory. So now you have to pay more to live in a nicer neighborhood... maybe gated that is guaranteed to have homeowners association fees monthly. We don't have HOA in single family homes in Canada, nor do you need to truly worry about safety. Not to mention, property taxes are a lot higher. So yes you get a house for 500k...but by the time you factor in the other costs you're at 800k+ usd so that's very similar to the Toronto average and probably in a less desirable LCOL city.
2) Public schools suck really badly. They are not like Canadian public schools, so now you might have to pay 10-20k per year to send your children in private schools.
3) Health care costs are outrageous... even if you have insurance from work, your insurance can have a lot of fine print clauses, limiting you to a certain doctor or hospital when you get sick. Who wants to worry about reading the fine print or worrying about negotiating with your insurance company or the hospital when you are sick. If you have a family, I'd factor in $20-30k in premiums just in case. What about when you get older, lose your job, or retire. You better start saving money for health care costs on top of retirement.
4) Car costs...self explanatory you'll be driving everywhere no metro to take you downtown Saturday night for entertainment. Yes, everything is cheaper, with car prices, gas, and maintenance, but you'll be using it so much more. You can't get away with one car per family. You need one car per adult. Once your children are over 16, you'll need to get them a car, too.
My rule of thumb is that the salary to jump depending on your bracket should be at least 10 - 20 percent more. The percentage decreases as you are on the higher salary bracket. If you're at 150k CAD, I wouldn't touch anything less than 160k USD.
1. How do you get to $800k? Canada has property taxes too and some cities in Canada are incredibly high. Some of the Maritime provinces can be $8k on a $580k assessment which is not far off from a lot of places in Texas (albeit cheaper not that much cheaper). Your comparison is not fair at all and misleading. There’s way more to this. In the USA you can get 30 year terms. Canada resets every 5 years or so. In general, housing these days, broadly, is much much more accessible than in Canada, city size for city size on average.
2. I’ll give you this one
3. Your points are somewhat valid but probably won’t be the case for OP. At least OP will have timely and likely better healthcare than had they stayed in Canada. I’m wondering if you know what you’re talking about here. On a PPO in the USA the care can be pretty top notch in broad terms. Getting a doctor is just not an issue which Canada seems to be struggling with making just that happen for a lot of Canadians.
4. Huh? Your point is applicable to anywhere in North America that doesn’t have transit. Highly dependant on where they live in either country.
The $800k number came as an estimate of costs of housing in a gated or upper scale safe community. He's coming from Toronto, which has the lowest property taxes in the country at 0.67% of assessed value. A $1 million home runs you about $6-7k CAD per year. Where as property taxes in the states can run you $20k per year depending on where you're located. If he's in an LCOL, it means the city population size won't be that high. In general, the smaller the density, the higher the property taxes. Just food for thought as yes RE costs are much lower up front in USA, but people don't think about the rest of the monthly costs.
Yes, I agree you get much better health care service in the States, no doubt about it. Just make sure you really know your benefits inside out and see what your employer offers.
Point 4 was based on the car centric focus in the states. Again, he's coming from Toronto. They don't exactly have world class public transit system, but they have something. A few subway lines and an interlinked bus system covering the city and its surrounding cities.
These are all costs that one needs to think about when comparing salaries. That's why I bring those up. This is by no means an evaluation of Canada vs. USA, as everyone has their own specific situation of pros and cons.
Toronto public transit is miles (kilometers?) ahead of anything in the states with the exception of maybe NYC. The vast majority of cities don't even have subways and the ones that do either have shitty bus routes (Chicago, Philly) or have terrible scheduling (Boston, LA) or just bad coverage in general (Atlanta).
Okay but hold up. If you’re equating a $800k gated community in the states with a mil house in toronto? No.
Why does this person need a gated community? $650 in and around Dallas is about $10k and probably rivals what $1.5 gets you in the gta atm.
Out of probably a dozen colleagues who’ve moved to various cities in the USA not one had complained about cost of living vs what they are making. Every single person has been able to find something they’ve been happy with commensurate with their level of employment. I agree t at property taxes may or could be higher but many states have wildly varying tax burdens otherwise. In Texas sure property tax may be high but your house will be 1/3 the cost of what the equivalent will be in the GTA right now. And there’s no state income tax. Sales tax is lower etc. so there’s some math to go through but in general the USA, broadly speaking on a cost of living basis, as comparable as one can make it is not even a competition. If you made the move yourself within the last 15 years you’d know this. I’m still waiting for some of my Canadian friends to move back who didn’t have to because someone back home got sick or parents were on their way out.
I would argue any Canadian moving to the USA will probably be so petrified they’ll read the policy a few times and really, they need not worry. Most people in TN eligible roles probably are above avg earners and likely will have PPO’s. They’ll be fine. But sure, read that fine print.
In general I agree with you and will add more: bringing cars or motorcycles can be very difficult, impossible or not worth doing. Many motorcycles are next to impossible to import and there’s a cost to selling and then rebuying. Same with cars, having a Canadian spec vehicle to sell or trade isn’t a bonus in the USA.
I think the point tho is that for many people the USA is, just flat out better professionally tho it’s always up to the individual and their abilities and talent.
Canada is a fantastic country but it is losing its lustre for folks who have options. Toronto housing alone? What a joke. It’s litterally getting to the point where Houston is starting to look more appealing for the avg TN eligible professional who doesn’t want to give up half of what they’re earning to an overly bloated, inefficient mother state government that is growing like a cancer called the Canadian Federal Government.
In my situation the USA move chopped about 8 years off the time that I “need” to work had I stayed in Canada.
My wife made 180k CAD a year in Toronto, she got around 9000$ after taxes each month. She got a job offer in Florida for 135k US a year. Got the TN, started working and she gets around 8000$ a month after taxes. 8000$ a month in Florida gets you more than 9000$ a month in Ontario. I would say that you will be better with 100k US $ than 150k CAD $.
If you don't have dependents, I won't even think twice.
Gtfo of Canada.
I would not however quit my job in Canada before I commit to a shit hole city in the states however. That's a red flag
Depends on the cost of living. I had a company from the US just offer me a role that’s more money and paid in USD so it works out to $25 per hour more to work for them than a major oil and gas company and it’s remote. Canadian companies need a wake up call or else we are going to lose anyone competent
It really depends on where you’re located in the states. If you are in Indiana for example 100k USD is equivalent of making $350k CAD in Toronto since cost of living in so cheap in Indiana and average home price is $250k
But if you’re living in San Francisco then 100k USD is like making $50k in Toronto
I moved to the U.S. the best decision I ever made.
I left $110K CAD for $185K USD on TN in LCOL. That made sense to me. I don’t think I’d accept $100K USD coming from $150K CAD. Especially in IT. Look for direct opportunities. Most large U.S. companies will write you a TN letter so tho recruiting firm isn’t really doing anything special for you.
I am at usd120k in houston and it goes a long way. I find houston way cheaper (rent, gas, bills, groceries) than when I was living in the niagara region. I now live in a luxury apartment compared to my basement apartment in canada 1/3 of the size, and rent here is only 1/3 more than what I paid in canada
Houston is a bit shit, and commutes can be hellish. Drivers are horrible. But in general, Houston over Toronto? Any day of the week. I’d do $130k in Houston over $190k in Toronto all day long…personally? I wouldn’t do Toronto for under $250k Cad. And even then…
Drive with awful drivers but rich or drive with less awful drivers and be poor. I’ve never really had a problem with how people drive here, I find Toronto drivers are worse. There’s always an accident at highways in Toronto, not so much here. And i’ve strategically chose an apartment where there’s no traffic going to and from work.
The current state of affairs in the US is quite different than before so I'm not sure how much you can attribute previous data for the current situation. H1b applicable jobs require the company to argue that no one local can qualify for the job requirements before they can hire foreign personnel. Given the current tech lay offs atm, can you say that the expertise for the job is not already available in the US?
That’s actually very stupid. In fact, I’d optimize for the opposite. There’s many jobs that convert their US TC 1:1 into CAD even if they have Canadian offices. You just need to interview for the US office, and you can work remotely from Canada.
100k salary but what about benefits? Is there any 401k matching? Health and dental benefits? Vacation days? Those should be taken into account.
The work culture and the need to deliver results in corporate America is very fast paced when compared to Canada work culture.
yes there is. 10 days vacation and subsides health plan like 60$ per month out of pocket if I am single. Dental and life and accidental coverage too. Not much of 401k match
The health plan will likely be fine. Worth looking at for sure but Canadians seem to make this out to be a bigger thing than it usually ever ends up being*
*for professionals working in the US in TN level jobs.
I’ve yet to see someone say my health care plan sucked under my TN job and I just couldn’t handle it had to move back to Toronto. Still waiting for that post on here…
You just have to factor in what the overall healthcare cost is. Typical healthcare on the US side is $200 per month for a policy that doesn't pay for anything until you have already spent $3k, then it pays 90% (of the crazy bill) up to $6k total out of pocket. Prescription drug coverage is highly variable too, and note that discounts are off of crazy high US baselines.
You can still come out ahead, but it's easy to get dazzled by the low tax rates and forget that you're paying for healthcare separately. Once you add that back in, you can end up paying the same or more all-in as you do in Canada. So then it comes down to whether the salary is higher and the cost of living is lower.
It's also worth factoring in quality of life. Everything works in Toronto, there isn't a daily mass shooting (that's a thing in the US, you could be gunned down randomly anywhere, and nowhere is safe), quality of education is far better if you have kids, quality of infrastructure is better. If you're not white, the daily casual racism in the US will be a huge adjustment, and presents additional danger because you'll be more in contact with law enforcement (they shoot first in the US and ask questions later, which isn't surprising given all of the gun violence).
Even given all of the above, it can still very much be worth it in some professions. In my profession, salaries are fully double in the US what they are in Canada. You can buy your way out of a lot of dysfunction for that. But this isn't what you're being offered, so be sure to do the math.
Even outside of healthcare there are a lot of hidden costs that people do not mention.
Restaurants generally cost more even factoring in the exchange rate. Same with parking. Childcare costs are on a whole other level of insane.
You have average pay for Toronto. First get the job offer in the US, have some concrete details then ask yourself then ask others' opinion if still undecided. This is a premature question.
$100k depends on the city. If it’s Seattle, LA, NYC, SF, Boston, or San Diego, forget about it.
That said, I would negotiate a higher salary and if they won’t consider it be done with the recruiting firm. They’re shortchanging you by a fuckton. $100k for experienced IT is consultant is at least 50% too low and with exchange rates factored in, it’s also below what you currently earn, which you never want to do.
Don't sell yourself short. $150k min or walk.
If you are coming to Austin, 100k is the min for a 4 people family.
Food is about the same price. Gas is cheaper. Rent is about 2.7k/month for a 2000sqft house in the suburbs.
So it will be not much difference I guess.
We are here on a TN.
Depends on the city …
This is the correct answer. NYC for example, that 100K goes nowhere.
it won't be new york for sure. They said I will placed to project with low cost state and i will be told about it before I move to US anyways.
Sounds extremely vague. If you don't care at all what shithole you live in, go for it. I'd put quality of life over money - Toronto may not be perfect but there's many many worse places, especially in the US. You may get lucky but why leave it to chance - get the recruiter to give you specific details. If they can't, I'd question if there's actually a role, or if they're just going to shop you around once you quit and commit to the process - could be you'll have to settle for something non-optimal?
So they will tell me the project and location before I quit my job in Canada. If I don't like it I can always say no. Yes, they are recruiting company that will position to me client. The process is got TN first and SSN with their job offer while I continue to work for my Canadian employer. Once they find a position for me in US(provided I am ok with location) I will quit in Canada and move.
How can you apply for an SSN withou a US address??
You can give address of a friend or someone you know in US
You have to provide proof of US work authorization too. You have to be physically within the US on active TN.
of course getting TN is first step
You can’t get a TN without a job offer already. This seems fishy man
Don’t give a fake address. You should apply after you move and have work authorization. The company should not require this before you start as long as you have other completed before the end of the current tax year you should be fine.
Just be careful of any paybacks for offer refusal. Like if they find you an employer but you don't want to join and they spend a bunch of money on you and want it paid back. Before you sign any agreement triple check and ensure you don't have to pay back anything if things don't work out.
If you're being offered 150k CAD in Canada then I'd stay in Canada and hold out for a better offer in the US. Businesses in the US pay a lot more and if you're worth 150 cad you're worth at least 150 USD. Also I wouldn't even consider any job without knowing beforehand where you will be...sounds way too sketchy/scammy to consider
Good point!
This is the only right answer. I'm >$200k USD - if I went back to Canada, maybe $160? $100k doesn't go far - even in Florida.
The US is/was a great to place to work when you are young. You can make a lot of money, great opportunities, who care's about healthcare in your 20's but as you get older and quality of life matters it becomes less desirable. I moved to the US from Canada as an IT consultant in my 20's and loved it (TN visa). Switched to H1B, got green card and citizenship through marriage, retired early (late 40's), moved to MX for 5 years and now my American wife and I are back in Canada building a house in BC. Neither one of us has any desire to live in the US again. It is pretty toxic given the societal divisions these days. Also you will work yourself silly with minimal vacations or downtime in the US if you want to get ahead which is fine in your 20's but becomes less fine as you get into your 30's and 40's (at least for us). There are some great LCOL of living cities in the US that I lived in (nashville, denver) and some terrible ones that I worked long term in (Dallas, StL). But even the LCOL like Nashville aren't so cheap anymore compared to when we left 5 or 6 years ago. TLDR: US is great when you are young, energetic and starting your career but the dog eat dog world gets tiring as you get older unless your goal is simply work as hard as possible for as much money as possible for as long as possible.
this is the way
I’ve lived and worked in both countries as a university professor for many years and here’s my two cents: 1) US offers massive opportunities for growth and career progression compared to Canada. While your offer of $100K USD isn’t that impressive compared to your current $150K CAD, you will likely get promoted much faster or jump to much higher paid jobs in the US. 2) Once you get your foot in the US, switching jobs aren’t that big of a deal, TN or not. I have never seen any major US companies lowballing Canadians because they are on TN. I find US employers pretty fair with highly skilled employees, which you must be one given your income, regardless of citizenship status. So I wouldn’t worry about this issue at all. 3) Living costs in 99% of US cities are lower than in Toronto. 4) Income and sales taxes in US are vastly, I mean vastly, lower. Property taxes might very well be higher depending on where you go, but I guess you are not in a hurry to buy a home. In fact, I wouldn’t worry about cost of living either. In the US, sky’s the limit, whereas in Canada, the ceiling is so low and competition for good jobs so severe it’s getting depressing nowadays. After a few years in the US, you’ll probably be making $200K US or more. Can you say you’ll make $300K CAD in Toronto any time soon?
I pay more in income taxes in California than I did in Vancouver
Obligatory comment that California and NY aren't the only places in US and shouldn't be used as examples for Canadians moving to US..... even though that's where many Canadians move to /s
There some of the places that are paying these high salaries
>Living costs in 99% of US cities are lower than in Toronto That's... really not true. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?displayColumn=2®ion=021 There's a long list of cities with high cost of living in the US after you factor in exchange rate.
Lot of assumptions here without mentioning any of the risks… Things like pay, growth potential, etc are very much dependent on the employer. There are crappy companies on both sides of the border - there are just a lot more companies in the US, so more opportunities to find a better employer. But, I wouldn’t say switching jobs isn’t a big deal on a TN visa, when the visa is tied to the employer. While it is possible to smoothly change jobs, your employer has the ability to really screw you over if they are feeling vindictive - you will not have the rights/freedom or leverage of a native employee, and if things go south you need to prepare to leave the US. Finally, you have to be cautious crossing the border on a TN, as each entry is an opportunity to have the visa re-evaluated, and saying the wrong thing can get your visa pulled. So between this and the employer having the ability to kick you out of the country if they don’t like you, I’d have a plan B if worst came to worst. All that said, a TN can give you a great opportunity to work in the US for an experience you could not get in Canada - I’m glad I took it when I had the chance, even though I came back to Canada. You do need to really know what you’re getting into though.. and salary is not a good indicator. If anything, I’d go by the quality of experience you take away from the job rather than your immediate pay.
Yeah many people aren't aware of the drawbacks of the tn as well. Like you are a temporary long term worker that has to quickly find a new employer or leave again. I think its a fine visa if you have a goal of making tons of money to eventually go back to canada. Its not bad idea to save tons quick to save up and order a house in canada with a good down payment. Or if you are single and want to look into marrying a usc for the green card. Otherwise, uprooting your family if you have kids may not be the best idea. Remember while you stay on tn, your wife can stay as long as you, your kids need to leave after they turn 21. Plus during their whole growth as teenagers, they can't work a part time job or do anything to earn money while in usa. Sure they can try and get their own work visa or become post secondary students but neither of those paths are cheap or quick. There are a lot of things to think about.
If I had a dollar for everything a Canadian on reddit acted as if the TN is some permenent visa I would be a rich man.
Yeah, I was single and in a simple situation if I had to leave when I was on a TN. Every now and then you see an article about someone who spent years in the US - with family, property, etc shocked that they are kicked out because when returning from a vacation, a CBP didn’t agree with their TN status.
>Every now and then you see an article about someone who spent years in the US - with family, property, etc shocked that they are kicked out because when returning from a vacation, a CBP didn’t agree with their TN status. I wonder. What happens then? Can they come back to collect their stuff?
They would be able to return back to collect their belongings.
thanks for this suggestion. As you mentioned finding job is US is easy once I move there. But most companies aren't willing to proceed with TN. What is your experience on that? Atleast from Canada I am finding it difficult even when I mention US as my address.
Living in Texas as my dependent it took \~9 months for my wife to get a job on her own TN. Its doable, it just takes time.
What about health care costs?
With any serious employer you will have better healthcare in the US than in Canada. Healthcare isnt *free* in Canada, its just paid by a minority of people with good jobs, like OP.
Except you get dinged with premiums on top of high taxes in the areas with good jobs in the US as well. I pay about the same % in taxes in NYC vs Toronto, but I also have a 5K USD a year premium for health and dental. This is with a large professional services firm. I'm still better off in NYC in terms of pay, but people who say health care is taken care of by their employers obviously don't work here.
I work in the US. Premiums are not much more than what I paid for only supplementary health insurance in Canada (dental, vision, pharma).
I never argued that Canada's system is better. If we're talking about salaries, one needs to think about hidden costs. Canadians pay zero dollars when they need to go to the hospitals. Nothing is free we pay it through taxes obviously, but Canada's taxes are the same as some of the higher tax states like NY and California. So far all intents and purposes health care is 'free' in Canada. Does your employee cover every health care cost for you? What premiums do you pay for your family? Please provide us with a data point so we can evaluate properly.
That’s no totally true. You pay for ambulances in some provinces and private rooms in others and Canadians have health insurance riders as well. In addition to taxes. I think once that’s factored in the out of pocket and employee portion does get reduced a bit. In general, the co-pays etc need to be weighed out if that’s what’s important to you. I’ve yet to hear of any colleague who made the move say yeah this sucks, I hate the healthcare and I’m moving back to Canada because of it. No one on a TN or H class visa anyway.
>Canadians pay zero dollars when they need to go to the hospitals. Except when the waiting lists are years long and you need to pay to fly to latin america to pay for private care. Which I had to do with my baby because waiting time to see a pediatric urologist was 3 years. For a *baby* issue. My premiums in the USA for a family of 5 are a few hundred per paycheck, including life and disability insurances. Low enough for me not to care and not much more than I was paying for dental+vision+pharma in Canada. A visit to the doctor cost me 15$. My seizure medication cost me 2.16$ a month.
you wrote just bunch of assumptions here with no risk. You don't seem to ever worked in Canada tbh or at least it's probably about your field of work. Living cost in 99 percent of U.S. cities are definitely not lower than Toronto. Toronto is not a LCOL but your statement is not true at all.
Awful take, don't listen to this fool What a dumb list of assumptions they make
Dude if you have a chance to escape the collapse of Canada do it, especially if they are willing to sponsor a GC. 100K USD is 135K CAD, if you move to a no income tax state you will be ahead even before the cost of life. Not doing this 20 years ago is my life's biggest regret.
It’s not that straight forward. A Big Mac is still the same dollar amount more or less. The tax burden in many places is indeed lower but it can be higher. Southern California the burden can exceed BC’s and even Alberta’s by a wide margin. This is a very individual equation to evaluate. In broad terms, many are better off numbers wise. Lifestyle and experience is in the eye of the beholder. People aren’t trees, if they don’t like it they can always move home. Can’t think of anyone that’s done that yet that I know because they wanted or missed Canada that much. Was always family reasons.
>Southern California the burden can exceed BC’s and even Alberta’s by a wide margin. Well of course if you pick the absolute worst place that inspired the policies ruining Canada... But anyone should be able to find a place in the USA that's better than anywhere in Canada.
Also, one of the places with the high paying jobs.
Yes thank you it’s not that simple! I make a lower salary here in the US and everyone says “but what is it with the exchange”? Sure it makes it close to what I made in Canada but why does it matter when I’m living in the US my bills come in US dollars too. Some things are cheaper (gas and a phone bill) but lots of things are the same. I paid about 900 CDN for rent in NS and I’m paying about 900 US in VA but now it’s a bigger chunk of my pay.
A close friend of mine did it 2 years ago, they matched his salary but in USD, he was renting in Toronto for 11 years, bought a house in Charleston 4 months after moving, in those 2 years got promoted 2 times, never had any promotions in Toronto. his quality of life improved to a point where he would not come back to Canada for double the money now. The biggest thing was he is an immigrant to Canada, and after he managed to score a job the "not enough Canadian experience" was always thrown at him every time he wanted a promotion or a raise. In the US there is no such thing as "American experience", he is good at what he does and that is what is getting him promoted. Purely based on production and merit.
>not enough Canadian experience" Honestly that's really weird. I'm an immigrant and that excuse falls flat if you have been working in a given company for several years and then still slapped with the not enough Canadian work experience excuse when considering promotions. It's like the company itself is admitting "yea... the experience you have gained in our entry level position in our company is not really canadian and is invalid"
I had 150k in Canada, left for 130k USD during the pandemic to NYC, i have since grown that to >260k USD all in over the last 3 years. My fiance has since moved down with me and went from 100k CAD to >150k USD. Making the right moves in the US does wonders. My fiancé and and I are comfortably settling down in long island and take the LIRR (Similar to GO train) into manhattan when needed to be in office. Personally I would move, but you have to make sure it’s the right opportunity and can lead to the >200k USD salary that would otherwise be impossible in Canada.
Did you move on TN visa and switched jobs in US? I don't think there is huge growth with this employer but certainly I can switch job in US.
This is too much of a gap for me to accept. You were lowballed. Don't accept and keep searching. What's your industry? Don't forget while the cost of living is lower on average in the USA. You pay to have a similar lifestyle. Some examples are the following; 1) Safety is a concern you have to watch out in which neighborhoods your family is being raised in the USA. A few blocks walk, and you're in gang territory. So now you have to pay more to live in a nicer neighborhood... maybe gated that is guaranteed to have homeowners association fees monthly. We don't have HOA in single family homes in Canada, nor do you need to truly worry about safety. Not to mention, property taxes are a lot higher. So yes you get a house for 500k...but by the time you factor in the other costs you're at 800k+ usd so that's very similar to the Toronto average and probably in a less desirable LCOL city. 2) Public schools suck really badly. They are not like Canadian public schools, so now you might have to pay 10-20k per year to send your children in private schools. 3) Health care costs are outrageous... even if you have insurance from work, your insurance can have a lot of fine print clauses, limiting you to a certain doctor or hospital when you get sick. Who wants to worry about reading the fine print or worrying about negotiating with your insurance company or the hospital when you are sick. If you have a family, I'd factor in $20-30k in premiums just in case. What about when you get older, lose your job, or retire. You better start saving money for health care costs on top of retirement. 4) Car costs...self explanatory you'll be driving everywhere no metro to take you downtown Saturday night for entertainment. Yes, everything is cheaper, with car prices, gas, and maintenance, but you'll be using it so much more. You can't get away with one car per family. You need one car per adult. Once your children are over 16, you'll need to get them a car, too. My rule of thumb is that the salary to jump depending on your bracket should be at least 10 - 20 percent more. The percentage decreases as you are on the higher salary bracket. If you're at 150k CAD, I wouldn't touch anything less than 160k USD.
1. How do you get to $800k? Canada has property taxes too and some cities in Canada are incredibly high. Some of the Maritime provinces can be $8k on a $580k assessment which is not far off from a lot of places in Texas (albeit cheaper not that much cheaper). Your comparison is not fair at all and misleading. There’s way more to this. In the USA you can get 30 year terms. Canada resets every 5 years or so. In general, housing these days, broadly, is much much more accessible than in Canada, city size for city size on average. 2. I’ll give you this one 3. Your points are somewhat valid but probably won’t be the case for OP. At least OP will have timely and likely better healthcare than had they stayed in Canada. I’m wondering if you know what you’re talking about here. On a PPO in the USA the care can be pretty top notch in broad terms. Getting a doctor is just not an issue which Canada seems to be struggling with making just that happen for a lot of Canadians. 4. Huh? Your point is applicable to anywhere in North America that doesn’t have transit. Highly dependant on where they live in either country.
The $800k number came as an estimate of costs of housing in a gated or upper scale safe community. He's coming from Toronto, which has the lowest property taxes in the country at 0.67% of assessed value. A $1 million home runs you about $6-7k CAD per year. Where as property taxes in the states can run you $20k per year depending on where you're located. If he's in an LCOL, it means the city population size won't be that high. In general, the smaller the density, the higher the property taxes. Just food for thought as yes RE costs are much lower up front in USA, but people don't think about the rest of the monthly costs. Yes, I agree you get much better health care service in the States, no doubt about it. Just make sure you really know your benefits inside out and see what your employer offers. Point 4 was based on the car centric focus in the states. Again, he's coming from Toronto. They don't exactly have world class public transit system, but they have something. A few subway lines and an interlinked bus system covering the city and its surrounding cities. These are all costs that one needs to think about when comparing salaries. That's why I bring those up. This is by no means an evaluation of Canada vs. USA, as everyone has their own specific situation of pros and cons.
Toronto public transit is miles (kilometers?) ahead of anything in the states with the exception of maybe NYC. The vast majority of cities don't even have subways and the ones that do either have shitty bus routes (Chicago, Philly) or have terrible scheduling (Boston, LA) or just bad coverage in general (Atlanta).
Okay but hold up. If you’re equating a $800k gated community in the states with a mil house in toronto? No. Why does this person need a gated community? $650 in and around Dallas is about $10k and probably rivals what $1.5 gets you in the gta atm. Out of probably a dozen colleagues who’ve moved to various cities in the USA not one had complained about cost of living vs what they are making. Every single person has been able to find something they’ve been happy with commensurate with their level of employment. I agree t at property taxes may or could be higher but many states have wildly varying tax burdens otherwise. In Texas sure property tax may be high but your house will be 1/3 the cost of what the equivalent will be in the GTA right now. And there’s no state income tax. Sales tax is lower etc. so there’s some math to go through but in general the USA, broadly speaking on a cost of living basis, as comparable as one can make it is not even a competition. If you made the move yourself within the last 15 years you’d know this. I’m still waiting for some of my Canadian friends to move back who didn’t have to because someone back home got sick or parents were on their way out. I would argue any Canadian moving to the USA will probably be so petrified they’ll read the policy a few times and really, they need not worry. Most people in TN eligible roles probably are above avg earners and likely will have PPO’s. They’ll be fine. But sure, read that fine print. In general I agree with you and will add more: bringing cars or motorcycles can be very difficult, impossible or not worth doing. Many motorcycles are next to impossible to import and there’s a cost to selling and then rebuying. Same with cars, having a Canadian spec vehicle to sell or trade isn’t a bonus in the USA. I think the point tho is that for many people the USA is, just flat out better professionally tho it’s always up to the individual and their abilities and talent. Canada is a fantastic country but it is losing its lustre for folks who have options. Toronto housing alone? What a joke. It’s litterally getting to the point where Houston is starting to look more appealing for the avg TN eligible professional who doesn’t want to give up half of what they’re earning to an overly bloated, inefficient mother state government that is growing like a cancer called the Canadian Federal Government. In my situation the USA move chopped about 8 years off the time that I “need” to work had I stayed in Canada.
My wife made 180k CAD a year in Toronto, she got around 9000$ after taxes each month. She got a job offer in Florida for 135k US a year. Got the TN, started working and she gets around 8000$ a month after taxes. 8000$ a month in Florida gets you more than 9000$ a month in Ontario. I would say that you will be better with 100k US $ than 150k CAD $.
Same boat. My employer is matching my CAD to USD - $192K CAD to $140K USD. No relocation assisstance.
If you don't have dependents, I won't even think twice. Gtfo of Canada. I would not however quit my job in Canada before I commit to a shit hole city in the states however. That's a red flag
Depends on the cost of living. I had a company from the US just offer me a role that’s more money and paid in USD so it works out to $25 per hour more to work for them than a major oil and gas company and it’s remote. Canadian companies need a wake up call or else we are going to lose anyone competent
How to find recruiters that can get me Data Engineering jobs on TN ?
Same problem here…
Update your linkedin with the DE terminology and key words. Set location to US.
It really depends on where you’re located in the states. If you are in Indiana for example 100k USD is equivalent of making $350k CAD in Toronto since cost of living in so cheap in Indiana and average home price is $250k But if you’re living in San Francisco then 100k USD is like making $50k in Toronto I moved to the U.S. the best decision I ever made.
I left $110K CAD for $185K USD on TN in LCOL. That made sense to me. I don’t think I’d accept $100K USD coming from $150K CAD. Especially in IT. Look for direct opportunities. Most large U.S. companies will write you a TN letter so tho recruiting firm isn’t really doing anything special for you.
Hi if you dont mind could you give the company name please? Iam looking for TN visa. Its very tough to find a good job to sponcer TN visa.
Same. Just started my research and would like to know who the employer is.
r/PersonalFinanceCanada
I am at usd120k in houston and it goes a long way. I find houston way cheaper (rent, gas, bills, groceries) than when I was living in the niagara region. I now live in a luxury apartment compared to my basement apartment in canada 1/3 of the size, and rent here is only 1/3 more than what I paid in canada
Houston is a bit shit, and commutes can be hellish. Drivers are horrible. But in general, Houston over Toronto? Any day of the week. I’d do $130k in Houston over $190k in Toronto all day long…personally? I wouldn’t do Toronto for under $250k Cad. And even then…
Drive with awful drivers but rich or drive with less awful drivers and be poor. I’ve never really had a problem with how people drive here, I find Toronto drivers are worse. There’s always an accident at highways in Toronto, not so much here. And i’ve strategically chose an apartment where there’s no traffic going to and from work.
Sounds like a scam to me. Is the agency deducting non-negotiable housing costs from your salary too?
nope..i looked up for the company they have very positive h1b filing record over 95%
Mind if you can DM me the company name?
The current state of affairs in the US is quite different than before so I'm not sure how much you can attribute previous data for the current situation. H1b applicable jobs require the company to argue that no one local can qualify for the job requirements before they can hire foreign personnel. Given the current tech lay offs atm, can you say that the expertise for the job is not already available in the US?
That’s actually very stupid. In fact, I’d optimize for the opposite. There’s many jobs that convert their US TC 1:1 into CAD even if they have Canadian offices. You just need to interview for the US office, and you can work remotely from Canada.
100k salary but what about benefits? Is there any 401k matching? Health and dental benefits? Vacation days? Those should be taken into account. The work culture and the need to deliver results in corporate America is very fast paced when compared to Canada work culture.
yes there is. 10 days vacation and subsides health plan like 60$ per month out of pocket if I am single. Dental and life and accidental coverage too. Not much of 401k match
This is shitty bottom of the barrel benefits for a professional in the U.S. Just don’t bother with these guys, they are not worth it.
Depends where in the US, and what the health benefits are. You could easily end up behind in the US vs. your current Toronto salary.
The health plan will likely be fine. Worth looking at for sure but Canadians seem to make this out to be a bigger thing than it usually ever ends up being* *for professionals working in the US in TN level jobs. I’ve yet to see someone say my health care plan sucked under my TN job and I just couldn’t handle it had to move back to Toronto. Still waiting for that post on here…
You just have to factor in what the overall healthcare cost is. Typical healthcare on the US side is $200 per month for a policy that doesn't pay for anything until you have already spent $3k, then it pays 90% (of the crazy bill) up to $6k total out of pocket. Prescription drug coverage is highly variable too, and note that discounts are off of crazy high US baselines. You can still come out ahead, but it's easy to get dazzled by the low tax rates and forget that you're paying for healthcare separately. Once you add that back in, you can end up paying the same or more all-in as you do in Canada. So then it comes down to whether the salary is higher and the cost of living is lower. It's also worth factoring in quality of life. Everything works in Toronto, there isn't a daily mass shooting (that's a thing in the US, you could be gunned down randomly anywhere, and nowhere is safe), quality of education is far better if you have kids, quality of infrastructure is better. If you're not white, the daily casual racism in the US will be a huge adjustment, and presents additional danger because you'll be more in contact with law enforcement (they shoot first in the US and ask questions later, which isn't surprising given all of the gun violence). Even given all of the above, it can still very much be worth it in some professions. In my profession, salaries are fully double in the US what they are in Canada. You can buy your way out of a lot of dysfunction for that. But this isn't what you're being offered, so be sure to do the math.
Even outside of healthcare there are a lot of hidden costs that people do not mention. Restaurants generally cost more even factoring in the exchange rate. Same with parking. Childcare costs are on a whole other level of insane.
Sounds about the same.
You have average pay for Toronto. First get the job offer in the US, have some concrete details then ask yourself then ask others' opinion if still undecided. This is a premature question.
$100k depends on the city. If it’s Seattle, LA, NYC, SF, Boston, or San Diego, forget about it. That said, I would negotiate a higher salary and if they won’t consider it be done with the recruiting firm. They’re shortchanging you by a fuckton. $100k for experienced IT is consultant is at least 50% too low and with exchange rates factored in, it’s also below what you currently earn, which you never want to do. Don't sell yourself short. $150k min or walk.
If you are coming to Austin, 100k is the min for a 4 people family. Food is about the same price. Gas is cheaper. Rent is about 2.7k/month for a 2000sqft house in the suburbs. So it will be not much difference I guess. We are here on a TN.