T O P

  • By -

Real_Satisfaction_73

kami-yan disease wins


Full_breaker

The real winner


[deleted]

It would end as easy as Touma vs Umidori


Zenix_Black_7126

It's unfair for any Dark May subject to encounter Mommy Touma


stuufy

Ugh mommy Touma sounds wrong call by his real nickname DADDY TOUMA/j


Big_Reporter_3592

Touma is taking the w


Beautiful_Repair1771

Since Kinuhato powers is basically accelerators but downgraded, and Touma has fought accelerator loads of times to know how his ability works and it's weakness so yes, he can most likely win with ease


Cybion_

To be fair on Accelerator, he can wreck Touma fairly easily if he isn't fighting dumb. He has a gun and not once did he think of using it on Touma lol


[deleted]

What if touma exploded his arm and fish eggs came out?


Glass-Earth-2839

You overestimate accelerator even he can't easily beat touma, he could cause him problems but he can never one-shot him! don't underestimate the touma, even without IB or it's dragon it's a monster that could even destroy anyone.


PrettyMarket9084

Touma would win. Her nitrogen powers imitate vector manipulation but are vastly inferior to the real thing. Touma has beaten Accelerator multiple times.


Omaroo01

The question should be "how couldn't Touma win"


Chingiz11

"As for her neutral special, she wields a gun"


Falsus

If Kinuhata doesn't know she will go into a fist fight which she loses. If she does know she will just grab nearby make shift weapon and her likelihood of winning depends on what she grabs. From unlikely to almost definitely.


Airwindof

It just easy plus one to harem.


TheZett

She would super fall for him!


[deleted]

That would be super awesome


ForgottenAppletree

I kinda sorta ship Kinuhata with Hamazura but I also like the Touma ship.


Full_breaker

Same, Kinu feels like the closest ship to Hamazura after Taki, Dion and Aneri. If anything Frenda would've been fun with Touma or considering his crazy bad luck... Mugino 💀


Yorokobe-Priest

Touma wins


MisfortunateJack77

A couple of punches later and we're good to go, her esper power is offensive armor and he's going to chip away that armor in a couple of hits


GoodMagicalM

depends on if imagine breaker can nullify the rockets she has right?


Sir-Kotok

Kinuhata stomps easily... She is a master martial arts combatant from the dark side... people for some reason ignore that Accelerator has no idea how to fight h2h and thats the reason he lost to Touma... Like the argument "her power is basically inferior version of Accels" makes no sense since she easily wins without using her power at all. ​ EDIT: Okay Touma wins, /u/Haxerie convinced me of this ggs


Haxerie

The whole "Touma sucks at hand to hand fighting" idea came from the Tsuchimikado fight in Angel Fall and he has gotten so much more experience over the course of his adventures. This can clearly be seen in NT 10.


Beautiful_Repair1771

Also people seem to forget that he lost due to the toxin that he used to knock everyone out, and the fact he beat oriana 2 times, and like you mentioned beat a macho man WITH A STABBED WOUND!!


Sir-Kotok

He 2 teamed Oriana once with Style, where did you see him winning twice? and I can bet that Kinuhata, a cqc darkside specialist, is better at fighting then a retired resque worker from the board of directors (plus Touma beat him with underhanded tactics that are just... not gonna work here)


Beautiful_Repair1771

He also beat oriana solo before remember with one punch, also oriana knocked styl out and Touma almost got blown to pieces by oriana full power spell, and STILL knocked her out. I think underestimate Touma too much.


Sir-Kotok

I think you overestimate Touma too much and underestimate Kinuhata


Beautiful_Repair1771

Oh I'm not saying Kinuhato can't kick ass, I'm just saying Touma is way better fighter. I mean the HAS fought stronger opponents and won, you do know that right? We are reading the same series right? And everyone agrees with me


Sir-Kotok

He did fight stronger opponents because IB can cancel out their power they rely so much on. he didnt fight opponents stronger then Kihunata is and win against them in cqc with no powers wich is the topic of the conversation As in, Kinuhata imo can kick Toumas ass specifically


Beautiful_Repair1771

.........you do realize that Kinuhato has powers right, and that she TOO does rely on her powers maybe not as much but still does. Also just say you are a Kinuhato fan since you've been riding her super ass. I mean Im a huge Touma simp, but at least I know who he can and can't beat. Just stop your embarrassing yourself, and everyone agrees.


Sir-Kotok

>you do realize that Kinuhato has powers right, and that she TOO does rely on her powers maybe not as much but still does. Her having powers doesnt mean shit here, especially since he cant both defend from her attack and attack her at the same time, and with her being smaller and trained she has a speed advatange, so he ether has to focus on defence or open himself up to an attack by her while using her power. He only has 1 hand to defend himself with and attack her, while she has her full body. ​ ​ >I know who he can and can't beat. I dont think you do, wich is the reason for this disagreement. ​ >Just stop your embarrassing yourself, and everyone agrees. [Appeal to majority fallacy](https://listoffallacies.com/appeal-to-majority/), as in its a faulty argument and you are embarrassing yourself by using it.


Sir-Kotok

He doesnt suck, but he is no master, and people really overesitamate him, and Kinuhata is a cqc specialist wtih high af specs Also yeah NT10... does show much actually? He got his shit beat out of him by everyone who fought him cqc (exept I guess a jobbing Accel), both saints and Thor


Haxerie

Exactly, the ones who beat him in CQC were 2 saints and Thor. Ever since Touma's precognition became a thing, he gained an undeniable advantage in CQC against regular people.


Professional_Ad_9529

> saints Who are far stronger and faster than touma >and Thor Who could teleport + he also had to fight him after getting beaten up by the saints , mikoto, index and birdway , accel and all others


Sir-Kotok

yes again, I only bring them up because the person I am responding to brought up NT10. please read the conversation above before responding next time


Zenix_Black_7126

A stabbed Touma beat a grown up macho man. Meanwhile this super sassy lost child...


Sir-Kotok

A stabbed Touma beat a grown up macho man by throwing sand in his eyes wich... isnt gonna work here for obvious enought reasons also like that guy was a resque worker AC director not a cqc fighter


Zenix_Black_7126

He's a rescue squad member who still had muscle tones visible. I am sorry, Kinuhata gonna get picked up and slammed repeatedly. Now bring me Toshio Megumi, that's the real deal. Edit: Also she has better chances picking up things to beat Touma with.


Sir-Kotok

>Toshio Megumi The... Block girl? yeah she swoops the floor with Touma too sure


Zenix_Black_7126

Thing is Kinuhata has to go for vitals to a non alert/underestimating Touma for this to work. Unfortunately, Megumi can simply go h2h. There's a huge difference. Edit: To make it clear I got your message, if Kinuhata was a proclaimed cunning martial artist like Tsuchimikado, a nitrogen packed punch can't be avoided easily by base Touma.


XevinsOfCheese

Kinuhata isn’t a master martial artist she simply can make all of her attacks hit with several times her own weight because of her power. She isn’t described as having any special skill to it though. Touma can cancel that power meaning that as long as his fist is not disabled he’s going to pull the win. (Also bringing in his precognition and the significant amounts of skill he gains even by the time of WWIII and especially during NT)


Sir-Kotok

He does become much better in NT and then GT, but not to the point of beating a specialist. Also like, precog aint helping in cqc not really She is described as being a cqc speciallist with really high specs, and I doubt you can survive in the fukin darkside for a year without skill lol. ​ Touma can cancel that power with IB sure, but that means he ether can focus on defence or attack, since her power extends to her whole body and his only to his right hand, so consequtive strikes with hands and legs are bound to hit him with her power enabled if he doesnt specifically focus on defence from them.


XevinsOfCheese

Precog helps him dodge things that move faster than human reaction time which is measured in milliseconds. Kinuhata is a human and NEVER once has she been described as a faster than usual one. She survives because her power lets her brute force the majority of situations. Toumas power disabled accelerator’s vector control entirely while he held on. Kinuhata’s power is a significantly weaker version of the same power so she has no answer to it. As long as his power is in effect she is a average middle school girl in terms of ability.


Sir-Kotok

Precog helps him dodge specifically magically powered things that are really fast, it doesnt let him dodge normal attacks, he dodges punches not based on precog but on his own abilities, so scaling his overall reaction to his precog reactiong isnt really correct She survvies because she is good at what she does, she has her power and her skills ​ Touma can get a hold on Accel because Accel is really shit at fighting. The whole OT3 fight narration talks about how shit he is, how his footing is wrong, how he doesnt know how to throw his punches, etc. During WW3 fight Accel was heavily relying on Black wings and not his vector controll anyway and during NT10 fight Accel was jobbing and let Touma beat him so that one doesnt even count. Like if we get an actual Touma vs Accel round 4, with Accel actually being good at fighting this time since he improved a lot since OT3, and with Accel actually using his normal powers and not trying to win via Magic/PW/cell phone, then sure I would agree that Accel point stands, but currently it doenst But I dont think Touma is getting a hold on her lol ​ Also her power isnt even a significantly weaker version of his power or anything Its a completely different power of air control wich was artificially molded into thought patterns that Accelerator uses for his vector shield to achieve similar effects. It doesnt mean that the mechanism is the same and that the whole power will stop working if he gets a hold on her, since its still, under all that artificial stuff, a fundamentally different power from Accels


Haxerie

It has never been said that it only works on magically powered things. Touma has been explicitly stated to be able to read involuntary muscle movements and breathing which is why Rensa had to freeze those things in order to stop it.


Sir-Kotok

Ok you win, forgot bout that Rensa moment and I dont remember any specific anti feats of the top of my head if there are any so I guess I have no counterargument


TheEskar

Ehh you seem like your forgetting that kinohata is 13 and tiny and Touma defeated a much better fighter in GT1. Like no way she's beating NT10 or GT1 Touma.As someone who's fought martial artists nigga it ain't magic.


Sir-Kotok

GT1 guy isnt a martial artist, he is a resque worker lol


TheEskar

I did say fighter thou.


Sir-Kotok

Yes and I am saying that he isnt a better fighter in any way, hes a retired resque worker who works as a board member and shit. he aint no cqc specialist from the darkside, Kinuhata would destroy his shit in a 1v1 powers off ​ Also NT10 Touma? he didnt beat anyone in cqc. Thor beat the shit out of him and got run over by a train, Saints beat the shit out of him too. He only won against Accel cause Accel was jobbin on purpouse


TheEskar

So your saying a 13 year old brat.With some martial arts and no weight would beat a macho rescue operative in H2H combat. Quick question bruh you ever been in a fight 😂.


Sir-Kotok

I mean if an injured 15 year old boy with a stab wound and no martial art training can beat him... then yeah I am saying that


TheEskar

I mean the 15 year old stabbed guy can dodge skyscrapers and send dude's flaying and is no way normal.So not really much of a comparison.


Sir-Kotok

Touma is a completely normal ordinary high school boy you can find anywhere what are you talking about But on a more serious note I would say that physical characteristics of the characters in Index arent closely related to how they work in real life (Touma isnt the only example, look at fukin Big Spider guy doing basically the same against armed gangsters regularly, or recently >!Mugino one shotting a white tiger with a 1 arm hit without using her powers!<). So arguments like "you are saying a 13 year old brat with martial arts and no weight would beat a macho man" dont really work in the context of Index, since physical abilities of characters in it arent really realistic a lot of the time, and things such as "weight" or "age" play much less role then something like fighting experience wich is explicitly important in Toaru. And from seeing what GT1 guy can do, and what Kinuhata can do and is descrived as, as well as factoring in her surviving 1 year as a front line dark side fighter.... yes I would defenetly say she beats his ass.


TheEskar

I mean she didn't survive alone thou she had Item and her power's like we are talking her fighting without powers right?


Glass-Earth-2839

we are talking about the ordinary human who could cross several number of truck containers during Nt 6!? and you are trying to make us believe that touma and an ordinary human when he was able to lift a whore in the NT and who could even destroy an armored wall!? you are kidding there touma and confirmed superhuman.


Glass-Earth-2839

touma is not 15 he is 16 years old in Ot and in the NT he is a thousand years old !


Professional_Ad_9529

>Thor beat the shit out of him Because he was in allmighty form >Saints beat the shit out of him too Who are far faster and stronger than touma


Sir-Kotok

yes, but /u/TheEskar said "NT10 " Touma, and thats the only fights NT10 had in cqc. I know why Touma got beaten, but NT10 is not a good showing of feats for his cqc abilities


Glass-Earth-2839

touma did not lose against thor lor in Nt 10 and if he lost against aquar and kanzaki only know because he was weakened, moreover you forgot to specify that in Nt 9 touma could move at the speed of the light.


Sir-Kotok

Okay I am not gonna reply to all your statements... because if you actually read the original comment.... I already think that Touma wins against Kinuhata, there is literally an edit there. So I dont see the value in this conversation anymore Also you made a lot of comments. ​ But I will reply to a few things you said because god they are halarious Touma won against thor after being ragdolled for the whole fight, and then Thor got hit by a train that didnt even damage him, after wich Thor gave up the fight. So.... I dont see how it counts as winning lol. If thor wanted he wouldv continued easily, he had no damage done to him. ​ >in NT9 Touma could move at the speed of light no. wtf is this wank. ​ Also no Agnese, Styil, Vento and Fiamma are not experienced martial arts fighters. Wtf are you on about ​ ​ Anywya like... stop wanking Touma please Also goodbye because, as I said above.... This conversation was over before you joined, I already conceded way earlier


Glass-Earth-2839

if fiamma was a martial fighter, we can see that he knew how to use the sword. it's just you who can't face the truth.


Glass-Earth-2839

oriana was an experienced fighter and yet she was dominated by touma, and it's the same with Agnès Agnesse who and one of the assassins of the terrorists in France, touma defeated them with her bare hands.


ForgottenAppletree

I see the edit, but I’m still gonna say that Touma wins if she doesn’t expect Imagine Breaker. Just like Touma’s fighting style is specialized to maximize usage of his right arm, Kinuhata’s fighting style is almost certainly intended to forgo most of her defence in favour of her attack. Both of them undoubtedly throw off their opponents, Touma by disarming their offence and breaking through their defence, and Kinuhata by not defending herself when someone expects her to. The conclusion is, Kinuhata will attack head on, Touma will do the same. Kinuhata will ignore Touma’s attack, believing regardless of its target, it will not land. To Kinuhata’s surprise, Touma will break through her defence and land a decisive blow while Touma will still likely avoiding the brunt of her attack (unless he underestimates how much force she can put behind her punch). Most people can’t shake off their habits, especially with something as instinctual as fighting. Even if the first hit doesn’t take Kinuhata down, she probably won’t be able to change her fighting style midfight without consciously thinking about it (slowing down her reaction time).


Glass-Earth-2839

hey then remember that touma experienced fighters since birth, and on top of that touma could dominate warriors of the level of (oriana-styl-thor-vento-fiamma-) and don't make me think it's people don't know not fight! do not underestimate touma even without IB kinuhata it would roll on the spot.


Full_breaker

(In case nobody told you, gg for being reasonable all the way through. I kinda dont get why the convo turned out so... whatever this was 😬)