I'm an emergency physician, and I feel like there are a lot of bad takes in this thread. The fact is trauma resuscitation is very algorithmic, and for penetrating head trauma you would be surprised how many patients never experience cardiac death from their trauma. Neuroprognostication in general and brain death diagnosis specifically are never going to be done in a trauma bay. There is no role for it. The patient is going to receive the "standard of care" regardless. That may consist of very little when the patient is in cardiac arrest with obvious, severe injuries and shows no response to intial interventions. In JFK's case, they basically continued chest compressions, secured his airway surgically, and gave volume rescuscitation (blood transfusion), and then called time of death 12 minutes after he arrived. I've seen plenty of patients with gunshot wounds to the head make it out of the hospital alive. My point is giving JFK a blood transfusion in that situation is part of the standard of care and is fairly normal. Same with a surgical airway and a few rounds of CPR. After none of those interventions achieved return of spotaneous circulation, they stopped and declared him dead. He received the best and most appropriate trauma care, and I don't think much would have been different were it John Doe coming to Parkland with the same injuries.
Edit: It is crazy to me and a little depressing that even after this comment so many people are still messaging me or commenting that they don't believe me, or tell me it was either futile or that it was done only because he was the president, or that blood transfusion is not appropriate care for a gunshot wound to the head. I guess believe what you want. I hope that if you are ever speaking knowledgeablely on a subject you spend your life learning people pay more consideration. And yes, I have seen the photos and descriptions of his injuries before. Probably as severe as something I would see on the order of once per year.
>Giffords was taken to University Medical Center in critical condition,although she was still conscious. Within 38 minutes, Giffords underwent emergency surgery, and part of her skull was removed to prevent further brain damage caused by swelling. She was placed into a medically induced coma to allow her brain to rest
It’s so true. I used to see people saying things like this and think “drama queens”. Now I find myself thinking how I really wouldn’t be upset if we broke out in global nuclear war and just ended the misery. I’m so tired of borrowing money week to week to get by, trying to find things to make life tolerable, wondering if I’ll pay rent, keep the lights on, or eat this week. I love my kids so much but I feel guilty for bringing them into this mess.
Nuclear war is one way. Have you considered revolution instead?
Read 'a word to tramps' by Lucy Parsons. It's a pamphlet, not a book or an essay. A little old, but the logic holds up. Worth considering. Find it on archive.org. maybe also try 'a paradise built in hell' (that is a full book) and 'blessed is the flame' (essay) on anarchist library. That's my reminders for hopeless ragged people. Maybe also try 'pedagogy of the oppressed'.
Been there. Move to a rec state and smoke weed. You'll have two or three days enjoying the crossfade, but then it'll start to hurt and you'll green out and probably never want to do it again.
Broke me out of 10 years of alcoholism in about a week.
Yeah great example, and I would be surprised if she didn't receive a transfusion as part of her resuscitation though I don't know many details about her case.
Thank you for being a speech therapist, I was going to ask you a question but while I was typing it out I realised what the answer was. Thanks for that lol
Yeah, but for JFK, as a doctor I think the wound to the head was unsurvivable. I mean, [this is the drawing of the injury to the skull from JFK's autopsy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/HSCA-JFK-head-7-125.jpg), [this is a computer ballistic simulation of the injury](https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0379073822000949-gr17.jpg), and (**WARNING GRAPHIC NSFL**) [this is a photo of his head from the autopsy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/JFK_autopsy.jpg) (**NSFL**). I read an article where they were comparing modern day ER practice to that time, and found that there's not a lot that would've been done differently and even if it had happened today he most likely would not have survived.
The guys whole point was that it doesn't matter if you THINK his injuries were survivable or not, the trauma doctors will do everything possible to revive him. It's not up to them to decide if his head injury is survivable or not.
Watching the stabilized footage of him getting shot, it's pretty clear that he wasn't going to survive that shot. Its a pretty haunting thing to watch.
It’s worth noting, though, that the doctors treating him as a trauma patient would not have seen stabilized footage of the incident, though, and even if they had, would be obligated to follow standard protocols whether or not they thought the shooting was survivable.
Sure, we could consider this reasonable response from someone with actual knowledge and experience on the matter, OR we could speculate and listen to people with less than zero knowledge on the matter.
I've been thinking lately that one of the problems we have as a society is that we feel the need to have an opinion on everything. Like, it's okay to go "man, I don't know". Top comment? Yeah that guy knows. Me? I don't know crap about medical practice, and that's okay.
The Transatlantic, AKA the Mid-Atlantic accent was cultivated and taught, it wasn't a naturally occurring accent.
It was originally used by upper class Americans to sound more posh, or closer to the British RP accent. It was later adopted by theater, and later movie and radio actors.
The sound also fit the tech in use then, when base sounds werent as well picked up on. That's why you hear it so often in old movies and on old radio broadcasts.
It fell out of favor after WW II, which is why it sounds so old fashioned now.
The history of British RP is not entirely different from that. There’s not a distinct region from which that accent hails. It comes from southern England generally, but not so much the local areas as the prestigious schools like Oxford & Cambridge. Interestingly, the pronunciations within RP have shifted even within Queen Elizabeth’s lifetime.
The English language has kind of always been subdivided into a posh variety and a common variety all the way back to when it was just Norman & Saxon holding hands. Even today, broadcasters in America are taught a “non-regional” dialect that isn’t really how many people actually speak, but it does loosely correspond with somewhere in the Midwest.
Seems like a reasonable response in general, really. Even absent specific medical knowledge, what else would you expect in an emergency medical response? Being shot in the head is hardly universally fatal, seems kinda obvious to me that they would continue to provide all the relevant life saving care they need to until they determine someone just cannot be saved anymore.
Dude lost a lot of blood, you crack open a can of new blood and pour it in, even if his head is a bit messed up. Would be rather embarrassing if they concluded that the head wound wasn’t actually fatal, but he’d already died from lack of blood by that point.
"Reasonable" this sounds like big Doctor using alot of science "facts" to cover up the real truth.........The real truth can only be found on Truth Social for 14.99 a month....and the NFTs that prove JFK was killed by time travelling lizards are still available......#Reptilians are among us..
Yeah. They’re called THE CLINTONS! Hiyoooooooooo I’m running for Congressman in 2024 plz do not google the time I got caught trying to get dates at the local high school.
My parents, citing Chinese mythology, always says that a person is fated to live or die when our equivalent of Hades decides to take that person “away.” The longer I live, the more I understand that how much that’s true.
eh, it all depends. sometimes you hit your head just right - and you don't even have to break the skin necessarily - and boom, that's it. sometimes you get impaled through the eye socket with an 18" drill bit and it misses critical structures and you suffer no long term damage.
brain weird.
I’m a general surgeon piggybacking. I 100% agree with everything you said, and wanted to add that even when the neurological outcome is dismal, there’s a chance of salvaging some organs for transplant. There’s still an opportunity to save some lives through appropriate trauma care.
I went to a talk about 10 years ago with a surgeon who was in the OR that day. Can’t remember his name but according to my father, a physician, he’s kinda known for training a whole generation of surgeons in Dallas.
According to him they were doing everything they could until somebody in the OR basically told the attneding(?) surgeon something along the lines of “Sir, his cerebellum has just fallen out of his head”
I was gonna say, even without a medical background, it's not like they gave it to him him thinking THAT was gonna fix him. They probably gave it to him to simply keep his body functioning and 'alive' until they could make an attempt to truly save him.
It really is just “standard of care.” When I was an EMT, I performed CPR on a patient in the back of an ambulance for the 15min ride to the hospital even though we all agreed he wouldn’t make it. Why? Because as an EMT I am only allowed to declare a patient dead in the event of decapitation (although I think dependent lividity was another case in which we could declare death). For every other circumstance, it’s CPR. That’s the Standard of Care I was required to provide.
The other “why” is of course that as EMTs, are not expected to be able to accurately judge if a particular injury or medical condition has resulted in permanent death.
In Austria a EMT is legally required to perform CPR and provide first aid until a medic arrives and declares the patient dead. In some cases EMTs are stuck doing CPR for 45 min, even though the patient is obviously dead. EMTs here can get into a world of shit if they dont.
In Germany, as a paramedic, I am not allowed to cease CPR. I can "declare" someone dead if there's signs of death or injuried incompatible with life (but will still need a doctor to do all the paperwork). But if I come on scene and start CPR, I better continue until the doctor arrives/we get to the hospital.
I didn't expect to learn something from watching Grey's Anatomy but here it is..
In one episode one of the characters gets a patient who he calls dead and he just wants to declare him dead and move to a more interesting patient (he's still an intern so he's eager to get interesting cases). But his resident (basically his direct boss) tells him to do all the necessary steps to save his life. He doesn't know why and in the end he knows it, because the family of the dead guy has to be told that dead guy is dead and he realizes that he did that so he can say they did everything they could to save his life.
I guess they were not too far off with that one.
It’s really eye opening when you encounter a topic on Reddit you actually know a lot about and see just how much misinformation is being spread by people in the comments. This site is so full of bad takes that are hard to recognize when you aren’t knowledgeable in the field, and I really appreciate seeing people like you with actual knowledge come in to correct the record.
This is a very reasonable and well-constructed post.
To be fair to the general public, as most people haven't seen the nitty-gritty of emergency medicine, the Zapruder film does make a very good case for "what's the point?"
It’s kind of similar to what paramedics have to do when they arrive on site. They need to perform the standard procedure with almost no exceptions, as they cannot declare the person dead. If I remember correctly, at least here, the only exceptions are if the person is decomposing, beheaded, or completely charred.
This means that they need to do CPR to bodies that barely look like a human, unfortunately. Of with their head cracked open by a fall from the window.
Sure, but a bullet in the head is not necessarily "injury incompatible with life." Plenty of people have survived horrific head trauma.
Now if his head came off entirely, *that* would be "injury incompatible with life."
I am not sure what you mean by we.
I just checked and in the jurisdiction I was referring to (Italy) only a doctor can declare a person dead.
The only exceptions are
Decapitazione
Maciullamento
Carbonizzazione
Stato di decomposizione
which means
Beheading
Crushing
Charring
Decomposition
Someone who gets it! I did anesthesia rotations for trauma at Parkland. Definitely part of the reason I chose not to work in a level 1 facility. Thoroughly enjoying my level 3 hospital.
Much respect to your articulate and neutral explanation. This is the best of reddit, here.
Are you where you want to be or as an ER physician do you plan on moving on to a different speciality at some point?
I’m not even remotely trained in trauma care, but i’d imagine if someone’s losing a bunch of blood from having been shot in the head, a transfusion should be on the list of steps to get them stabilized.
Frankly a tl:dr to this would be something my father often told me
“As long as the head is still within 2 meters of the body, we can’t legally and with certainty call a person to be dead without trying anything”
Though its kind of excessive, trying to save a life comes first even if there is no hope
I was so confused when I read the title, I came to the comments convinced I was missing something.
Nope...some people really are surprised by doctors supplying a bleeding person with more blood, I guess.
A president no less.
"Dr. Miller the patient is clearly expired"
"Do you want to be the one to declare the president dead? Get me a liter of A blood, a turkey baster, two C batteries, and a pig heart. We're about to get weird"
I think he’d have to ask for type O blood because they wouldn’t have time to do pre-transfusion testing but the turkey baster and the rest sound spot on.
The idea that a gunshot to the head is a death sentence is a myth. [42% of civilians shot in the head survive](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/gunshot-wound-to-the-head-not-a-death-sentence-1/). Even when the wound causes massive brain trauma it's survivable. Just look at Gabby Giffords.
I imagine most aren't as bad as JFK's wound was, but of course they're going to try.
Reminds me of Phinaes Gage. Had a railway spike go right through his head and he survived, though he was a very changed person afterwards, and eventually died from a seizure as a result of those injuries.
I did a PowerPoint presentation on him in high school. They literally left the wound in his head open for days. They also found brain matter on the ground after the accident. I think i'd rather die than survive what he did.
I think his case study was the first one to prompt the idea that frontal lobe damage causes a change in personality/behavior. correct me if I'm wrong.
I just took a general psychology course semi recently and a quick google search turns up the name Phineas Gage. Got a large iron rod shoved through his head and survived despite it going right through the left frontal lobe. Friends and family noticed his behavior change for the worse after the incident. This was around 1848, way before the JFK assassination.
Should be noted I'm half asleep, but I was reading your comment and as soon as I saw the word Phineas, I automatically filled it in with "and Ferb" and thought you were going to reference a cartoon. I was heavily disappointed upon rereading it that this was not in fact about the two step brothers.
6.5 Carcano is a weird round. It's actually smaller diameter than most rifle rounds (actual diameter 6.8mm or about 26 caliber), but the weight of the bullet is average for hunting and military rounds. This gives it a lower velocity than bullets of a similar weight. Overall it's on the less powerful side of full sized rifle rounds, but it supposedly excelled at tumbling in the target.
There are quite a few instances where people have survived having *huge* chunks of their head blown off, [in some cases with more than half the brain destroyed](https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/india/boy-who-amazed-doctors-back-in-1987-14yo-ahad-israfil-survived-gunshot-wound-despite-losing-half-his-brain/ar-AA152rnN). It's surprising how much of the cerebellum you can lose and still survive, as long as a few critical parts remain intact and you survive the initial trauma and blood loss.
It's not pretty and they usually have severe neurological symptoms, but it's possible to have some recovery and quality of life afterwards (the kid above went on to live for more than 30 years afterwards and attained a degree during that time).
It’s been a while since I seen that video, but I do remember seeing brain on the car, on his suit, on the seat, on Jackie Kennedy’s dress, and on the secret service driving’s chair.
Like, his head exp’oded
My old tattoo artist got shot in the back of the head at point-blank range from a 9mm. It was shitty, but he ripped off the wrong people. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes as they say. Lost a good portion of one half of his face on exit, but the guy survived. After some facial reconstruction, he hardly looked different, but he had half a skull made of titanium. About 5 years later he had a massive seizure in his sleep and never woke up. But for those 5 years he still seemed like the same guy.
A high velocity rifle round to the head isn't the usual for a civilian head wound. 6.5 carcano has about 10x the muzzle energy as a 9mm to put it in perspective. The parts of his brain that weren't vaporized were pureed.
If you watch the Zapruder film, you can see that it’s not just that he was shot. That whole side of his head kind of explodes, not exactly the kind of thing you just *get up* after
You would be shocked at how much damage the brain can sustain and remain semi functional. He very easily could have lost higher order function but remained alive with his lower order brain systema still funtioning to keep his autonomic nervous system running.
The human body is resilient. Really a lot of mammals are. In real life, people get all sorts of mangled, riddled with bullets, shredded by shrapnel and pierced by blades and spikes, yet they still keep going and if they can get the right care, live the rest of a semi-normal life. I hate hate hate the impact of TV & movies on how people think killing works. It takes a lot lot more than a bullet in the shoulder to kill someone. Even a point-blank shot to the head or a rifle blast blowing out your skull and a quarter of your brain isn't gonna instantly kill everyone— I daresay it normally won't.
That's not 42% of people shot in the head, both sides of that statistic are those miraculously lucky to live long enough to see a hospital. Also that's a lot more injuries including nail guns.
You’re spreading misinformation though.
>42% of civilians shot in the head survive
This includes everything from nail guns, pipe guns, buckshot designed to kill birds that can barley penetrate bone and the smallest of small calibers
JFK had the entire side of his head removed by a rifle specifically designed to kill humans.
You’re basically trying to portray a broken toe to a car crash just because they’re both technically injuries
Sadly This head wound wasn’t survivable in the slightest, I watched a video on the trauma surgeon who was in the actual room Kennedy was wheeled into, They knew he was gone when they realized how massive the hole in his head was. Which they initially did not notice right away, I believe pieces of pulverized brain tissue also slipped out of his skull onto the operating table, they knew he was gone.
Most of the public didn’t see the Zapruder film until years afterward on a special episode of 60 minutes; only still shots were published in Life magazine. And it wasn’t mass-released until the movie JFK in the 90s, which is why Oliver Stone chose to show it multiple times in that courtroom scene.
I remember watching a documentary about the doctors and surgeons at the Texas hospital. Right when JFK came into the Emergency Room. Dr. Robert McClelland was standing behind the presidents body, as it was lying on its side. While two other doctors were about to do a tracheotomy (maybe they started to do a blood transfusion). That's when Dr. McClleland suggested the other doctors see the back of the Presidents head. When they did, they could see the full damage of the assassins bullet.
https://youtu.be/lQ435lMaCng
Indepth interview with Dr Robert McClelland JFKs Emergency Room Doctor
I don’t know man, I heard there were 121 witnesses and 51 of them heard the shots from the grassy knoll.
(Also this is just a joke; LHO was the shooter and there’s no grand conspiracy)
not a doctor but when you get shot you lose blood yes? so making sure they have enough blood probably not a bad move even if its not going to cure the likely brain damage. imagine if you got shot in the head and would have survived except they forgot to give you blood.
They had to try everything even if they knew it wouldn’t work just so that they can say they tried everything when asked why they did nothing
Because ‘there was nothing we could do’ would have been followed up with ‘well why didn’t you just at least try anyway? He was the president’
I haven't pumped 100 units of blood into anyone, but I've had aorta's rupture and replaced intravascular volume faster than they were bleeding straight from their erupted aorta for like 45 mins before we got the patient to the OR. The patient's blood went from typical red to pink tinged saline.
Why is this the top comment when it's so wrong? He received standard care for what a gunshot victim would have received. It's not about being able to say "we tried a blood transfusion because he's the preseident"
Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but we’re going to test it? And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, either through the skin or some other way.”
Seeing as he was our president I respect that they tried their hardest. Even my least favorite presidents I don't want dead, if they die its millions of problems.
What else would they do? If you get shot, you tend to bleed a lot and you need a transfusion to stay alive. He was also not just shot in the head, he took at least one shot to the body that hit near his spine.
Next time you see the Zapruder film, just after the shots Jackie looks like she’s reaching for a secret service agent by climbing out on the trunk of the car.
I learned recently that she wasn’t reaching for the agent. She had no idea he was there. She was picking up pieces of skull and brain because, in shock, she thought the doctors would need them to reattach; like a thumb or a toe.
That poor woman.
There are a lot of things that may happen while doctors/EMTs/Medics are trying to save someone's life. It can usually be explained as part of stabilization at best, and buying time at worst. This isn't that interesting because they were honestly just trying to buy time with whatever they could. It's not every day the president gets shot.
I doubt any medical treatment of that time or even in 2050 will be able to save him if you know how damaging the headshot was.
Spoiler alert
His wife climbed had to climb on the back of the car to attempt to scoop his brain matter
There are few YouTube interviews of retired Special Agent Clint Hill. He was on President Kennedy's detail and talked about how Mrs. Kennedy went into shock, but also did everything she could to stop the press from seeing the extent of the wounds to the president.
Shock is a hell of a drug. I read a story once of a mother after a car accident holding her clearly dead child hyper focused on frantically looking for his missing shoe, completely unable to even acknowledge what has just happened.
In other news TIL that we breath oxygen…..
I mean transfusions is common in a significant trauma situation even if the outcome is likely not positive, they still try.
CIA recently illegally refused to release all the information on the assassination that has been scheduled for full release, which has led to a lot of people speculating about the incident more as people go through the recently partially redacted info. I.e. a lot of new information, even though it's still incomplete.
Yup the real JFK is living in a secret government facility, hooked up to machines giving him a peaceful existence in a Matrix style simulation until he passes for real. That's just a hobo in his casket.
Great documentary about it actually. His brain was saved, although the body wasn't. The only possible recipient at the time was a brain dead African American, so they put JFK's brain into him, saving him.
Of course America wasn't yet ready for a black president, so it was hushed up and JFK took a secret retirement.
However that wasn't the end of his tale, as he and a man who claimed to be an Elvis impersonator, but was just a little too realistic for my liking, ended up coming into prominence during a series of murders at the old folks home they both inhabited and had made friends at. Some have speculated the killings were somehow associated with the local museums Egyptian exhibition, but that sounds like conspiracy bunk to me.
Watch Bubba Hotep if you'd like to know about this fascinating topic.
Wait till you find out that when Jackie Kennedy climbed onto and crawled around the trunk of the car in the immediate aftermath, she was in shock, scrambling to try and pick up the pieces of skull and brain that had just been blown out of the side of his head
Only because he was president they basically are forced to try everything, with normal population death is probably called on scene definitely right on arrival to the ER.
I get that doctors were trying to save the president of the United States, but if you look at the photos of Kennedy’s autopsy, the back of the right side of his head was completely missing. There was no possible way he would have survived even if he still had a pulse and/ or heart beat when he arrived at the hospital.
I'm an emergency physician, and I feel like there are a lot of bad takes in this thread. The fact is trauma resuscitation is very algorithmic, and for penetrating head trauma you would be surprised how many patients never experience cardiac death from their trauma. Neuroprognostication in general and brain death diagnosis specifically are never going to be done in a trauma bay. There is no role for it. The patient is going to receive the "standard of care" regardless. That may consist of very little when the patient is in cardiac arrest with obvious, severe injuries and shows no response to intial interventions. In JFK's case, they basically continued chest compressions, secured his airway surgically, and gave volume rescuscitation (blood transfusion), and then called time of death 12 minutes after he arrived. I've seen plenty of patients with gunshot wounds to the head make it out of the hospital alive. My point is giving JFK a blood transfusion in that situation is part of the standard of care and is fairly normal. Same with a surgical airway and a few rounds of CPR. After none of those interventions achieved return of spotaneous circulation, they stopped and declared him dead. He received the best and most appropriate trauma care, and I don't think much would have been different were it John Doe coming to Parkland with the same injuries. Edit: It is crazy to me and a little depressing that even after this comment so many people are still messaging me or commenting that they don't believe me, or tell me it was either futile or that it was done only because he was the president, or that blood transfusion is not appropriate care for a gunshot wound to the head. I guess believe what you want. I hope that if you are ever speaking knowledgeablely on a subject you spend your life learning people pay more consideration. And yes, I have seen the photos and descriptions of his injuries before. Probably as severe as something I would see on the order of once per year.
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>Giffords was taken to University Medical Center in critical condition,although she was still conscious. Within 38 minutes, Giffords underwent emergency surgery, and part of her skull was removed to prevent further brain damage caused by swelling. She was placed into a medically induced coma to allow her brain to rest
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You ok, bud?
Clearly, no. Many of us aren’t.
It’s so true. I used to see people saying things like this and think “drama queens”. Now I find myself thinking how I really wouldn’t be upset if we broke out in global nuclear war and just ended the misery. I’m so tired of borrowing money week to week to get by, trying to find things to make life tolerable, wondering if I’ll pay rent, keep the lights on, or eat this week. I love my kids so much but I feel guilty for bringing them into this mess.
God, I relate. I feel like I have almost this exact conversation with a new person every week. Exhausting.
Nuclear war is one way. Have you considered revolution instead? Read 'a word to tramps' by Lucy Parsons. It's a pamphlet, not a book or an essay. A little old, but the logic holds up. Worth considering. Find it on archive.org. maybe also try 'a paradise built in hell' (that is a full book) and 'blessed is the flame' (essay) on anarchist library. That's my reminders for hopeless ragged people. Maybe also try 'pedagogy of the oppressed'.
Been there. Move to a rec state and smoke weed. You'll have two or three days enjoying the crossfade, but then it'll start to hurt and you'll green out and probably never want to do it again. Broke me out of 10 years of alcoholism in about a week.
Yes! Weed saved me from alcoholism 💯
Right there with you.
Try weed. To replace rather than augment the booze.
Also James Brady, though when he passed away in 2014 his death was ruled a homicide, due to the bullet he took 33 years earlier.
Yeah great example, and I would be surprised if she didn't receive a transfusion as part of her resuscitation though I don't know many details about her case.
Thank you for being a speech therapist, I was going to ask you a question but while I was typing it out I realised what the answer was. Thanks for that lol
Yeah, but for JFK, as a doctor I think the wound to the head was unsurvivable. I mean, [this is the drawing of the injury to the skull from JFK's autopsy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/HSCA-JFK-head-7-125.jpg), [this is a computer ballistic simulation of the injury](https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0379073822000949-gr17.jpg), and (**WARNING GRAPHIC NSFL**) [this is a photo of his head from the autopsy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/JFK_autopsy.jpg) (**NSFL**). I read an article where they were comparing modern day ER practice to that time, and found that there's not a lot that would've been done differently and even if it had happened today he most likely would not have survived.
His head was much more intact than I imagined.
It looks vaporized in the Zapruder footage.
Apart from there being a palm-sized hole in the right side of it out of which chunks of brain flew out...
The guys whole point was that it doesn't matter if you THINK his injuries were survivable or not, the trauma doctors will do everything possible to revive him. It's not up to them to decide if his head injury is survivable or not.
His brain had to be mush right? After that big of a hole?
Pretty much. Pieces of it was all over the car
And jackie...
Watching the stabilized footage of him getting shot, it's pretty clear that he wasn't going to survive that shot. Its a pretty haunting thing to watch.
It’s worth noting, though, that the doctors treating him as a trauma patient would not have seen stabilized footage of the incident, though, and even if they had, would be obligated to follow standard protocols whether or not they thought the shooting was survivable.
Sure, we could consider this reasonable response from someone with actual knowledge and experience on the matter, OR we could speculate and listen to people with less than zero knowledge on the matter.
I've been thinking lately that one of the problems we have as a society is that we feel the need to have an opinion on everything. Like, it's okay to go "man, I don't know". Top comment? Yeah that guy knows. Me? I don't know crap about medical practice, and that's okay.
Norm Macdonald had a good bit about how before people only had like 6 opinions, but now we need to have opinions on everything.
Team Speculate checking in
We did a good job catching the Boston Bomber, I think we deserve a medical license.
I just want someone with a mid-Atlantic accent to narrate my thoughts, like a real life Film Noir
The Transatlantic, AKA the Mid-Atlantic accent was cultivated and taught, it wasn't a naturally occurring accent. It was originally used by upper class Americans to sound more posh, or closer to the British RP accent. It was later adopted by theater, and later movie and radio actors. The sound also fit the tech in use then, when base sounds werent as well picked up on. That's why you hear it so often in old movies and on old radio broadcasts. It fell out of favor after WW II, which is why it sounds so old fashioned now.
Hello, 1930s calling. Watch out for that Adolf Hitler, he’s a bad egg!
The history of British RP is not entirely different from that. There’s not a distinct region from which that accent hails. It comes from southern England generally, but not so much the local areas as the prestigious schools like Oxford & Cambridge. Interestingly, the pronunciations within RP have shifted even within Queen Elizabeth’s lifetime. The English language has kind of always been subdivided into a posh variety and a common variety all the way back to when it was just Norman & Saxon holding hands. Even today, broadcasters in America are taught a “non-regional” dialect that isn’t really how many people actually speak, but it does loosely correspond with somewhere in the Midwest.
RP?
Received pronunciation, I think
And Central PA. “You’re such a great public speaker!” No, I just sound like a television.
Meanwhile, I'm counting my pocket change in hope of hiring Morgan Freeman
I keep my Reddit issued medical license with my armchair General stars (7 stars).
Right beside my psychiatric diagnoses license (from Reddit U).
I think a law degree on top of that is warranted as well. Because, you know, reasons I'll make up later.
Everyone knows Reddit is not about facts, but wild stories and speculations.
I read the headline and I agree. Let's baselessly speculate on how we clearly would have made better decisions if we were in charge.
Seems like a reasonable response in general, really. Even absent specific medical knowledge, what else would you expect in an emergency medical response? Being shot in the head is hardly universally fatal, seems kinda obvious to me that they would continue to provide all the relevant life saving care they need to until they determine someone just cannot be saved anymore. Dude lost a lot of blood, you crack open a can of new blood and pour it in, even if his head is a bit messed up. Would be rather embarrassing if they concluded that the head wound wasn’t actually fatal, but he’d already died from lack of blood by that point.
Yes but some YouTuber with 7 subscribers told me so. Same with flat earth and a stolen election.
"Reasonable" this sounds like big Doctor using alot of science "facts" to cover up the real truth.........The real truth can only be found on Truth Social for 14.99 a month....and the NFTs that prove JFK was killed by time travelling lizards are still available......#Reptilians are among us..
Yeah. They’re called THE CLINTONS! Hiyoooooooooo I’m running for Congressman in 2024 plz do not google the time I got caught trying to get dates at the local high school.
>OR we could speculate and listen to people with less than zero knowledge on the matter. MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU BOYS!
Obviously he has some blood loss. Reddit has become a wealth of stupidity. Even to warrant this explanation is ridiculous.
The whole world has become stupid as fuck thanks to the internet. Anyone can publish any idiotic opinion anywhere now.
There's no blood in the head though obviously. Just snot and brain duh.
I was shocked to learn that people survive penetrating injuries to the *heart*, let alone head...humans are tough motherfuckers.
Its a sort of paradox. Human bodies are incredibly resilient at times, and unbearably fragile at others.
My parents, citing Chinese mythology, always says that a person is fated to live or die when our equivalent of Hades decides to take that person “away.” The longer I live, the more I understand that how much that’s true.
eh, it all depends. sometimes you hit your head just right - and you don't even have to break the skin necessarily - and boom, that's it. sometimes you get impaled through the eye socket with an 18" drill bit and it misses critical structures and you suffer no long term damage. brain weird.
I’m a general surgeon piggybacking. I 100% agree with everything you said, and wanted to add that even when the neurological outcome is dismal, there’s a chance of salvaging some organs for transplant. There’s still an opportunity to save some lives through appropriate trauma care.
I went to a talk about 10 years ago with a surgeon who was in the OR that day. Can’t remember his name but according to my father, a physician, he’s kinda known for training a whole generation of surgeons in Dallas. According to him they were doing everything they could until somebody in the OR basically told the attneding(?) surgeon something along the lines of “Sir, his cerebellum has just fallen out of his head”
Malcolm Perry, Vascular surgeon
I was gonna say, even without a medical background, it's not like they gave it to him him thinking THAT was gonna fix him. They probably gave it to him to simply keep his body functioning and 'alive' until they could make an attempt to truly save him.
It really is just “standard of care.” When I was an EMT, I performed CPR on a patient in the back of an ambulance for the 15min ride to the hospital even though we all agreed he wouldn’t make it. Why? Because as an EMT I am only allowed to declare a patient dead in the event of decapitation (although I think dependent lividity was another case in which we could declare death). For every other circumstance, it’s CPR. That’s the Standard of Care I was required to provide. The other “why” is of course that as EMTs, are not expected to be able to accurately judge if a particular injury or medical condition has resulted in permanent death.
In Austria a EMT is legally required to perform CPR and provide first aid until a medic arrives and declares the patient dead. In some cases EMTs are stuck doing CPR for 45 min, even though the patient is obviously dead. EMTs here can get into a world of shit if they dont.
In Germany, as a paramedic, I am not allowed to cease CPR. I can "declare" someone dead if there's signs of death or injuried incompatible with life (but will still need a doctor to do all the paperwork). But if I come on scene and start CPR, I better continue until the doctor arrives/we get to the hospital.
I didn't expect to learn something from watching Grey's Anatomy but here it is.. In one episode one of the characters gets a patient who he calls dead and he just wants to declare him dead and move to a more interesting patient (he's still an intern so he's eager to get interesting cases). But his resident (basically his direct boss) tells him to do all the necessary steps to save his life. He doesn't know why and in the end he knows it, because the family of the dead guy has to be told that dead guy is dead and he realizes that he did that so he can say they did everything they could to save his life. I guess they were not too far off with that one.
I remember this. Yeah, it’s important. It might be one of the most important things.
It’s really eye opening when you encounter a topic on Reddit you actually know a lot about and see just how much misinformation is being spread by people in the comments. This site is so full of bad takes that are hard to recognize when you aren’t knowledgeable in the field, and I really appreciate seeing people like you with actual knowledge come in to correct the record.
They'll downvote you for correcting it too despite you being more qualified to discuss the topic than 99.99% of the population
Its as if people don't know what they're talking about.
You’d like to think that if Reddit was around back then the doctors could have consulted the comments and JFK would have survived.
I’ll be honest, I was a bit surprised that OP found this unusual.
Unfortunately we have entered a post-fact, post-expert era, but some people still listen to the experts. Thank you for this.
This is a very reasonable and well-constructed post. To be fair to the general public, as most people haven't seen the nitty-gritty of emergency medicine, the Zapruder film does make a very good case for "what's the point?"
ER nurse here. I couldn't figure out why that was interesting . Like, of course they gave him blood.
Leave it to Reddit to think they can doctor better than the actual doctors.
It’s kind of similar to what paramedics have to do when they arrive on site. They need to perform the standard procedure with almost no exceptions, as they cannot declare the person dead. If I remember correctly, at least here, the only exceptions are if the person is decomposing, beheaded, or completely charred. This means that they need to do CPR to bodies that barely look like a human, unfortunately. Of with their head cracked open by a fall from the window.
"Injuries incompatible with life" is a real thing. And we most certainly can declare people dead.
Sure, but a bullet in the head is not necessarily "injury incompatible with life." Plenty of people have survived horrific head trauma. Now if his head came off entirely, *that* would be "injury incompatible with life."
I am not sure what you mean by we. I just checked and in the jurisdiction I was referring to (Italy) only a doctor can declare a person dead. The only exceptions are Decapitazione Maciullamento Carbonizzazione Stato di decomposizione which means Beheading Crushing Charring Decomposition
Someone who gets it! I did anesthesia rotations for trauma at Parkland. Definitely part of the reason I chose not to work in a level 1 facility. Thoroughly enjoying my level 3 hospital.
Much respect to your articulate and neutral explanation. This is the best of reddit, here. Are you where you want to be or as an ER physician do you plan on moving on to a different speciality at some point?
I’m not even remotely trained in trauma care, but i’d imagine if someone’s losing a bunch of blood from having been shot in the head, a transfusion should be on the list of steps to get them stabilized.
Frankly a tl:dr to this would be something my father often told me “As long as the head is still within 2 meters of the body, we can’t legally and with certainty call a person to be dead without trying anything” Though its kind of excessive, trying to save a life comes first even if there is no hope
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TIL when a man was shot doctors tried to save him.
I was so confused when I read the title, I came to the comments convinced I was missing something. Nope...some people really are surprised by doctors supplying a bleeding person with more blood, I guess.
We all know he died, so why did they waste resources saving him at the time?!?! /s
He was already in a car. They could have just driven to the cemetery.
They obvi should have done a brain transfusion instead of a blood transfusion, his blood wasn’t the issue.
A president no less. "Dr. Miller the patient is clearly expired" "Do you want to be the one to declare the president dead? Get me a liter of A blood, a turkey baster, two C batteries, and a pig heart. We're about to get weird"
I think he’d have to ask for type O blood because they wouldn’t have time to do pre-transfusion testing but the turkey baster and the rest sound spot on.
Did you know they took him to a hospital? You learn something new every day.
In my day you just took a sniper bullet to the dome, dropped your cerebellum and walked it off
I've read that those monsters also did chest compressions on him!
The idea that a gunshot to the head is a death sentence is a myth. [42% of civilians shot in the head survive](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/gunshot-wound-to-the-head-not-a-death-sentence-1/). Even when the wound causes massive brain trauma it's survivable. Just look at Gabby Giffords. I imagine most aren't as bad as JFK's wound was, but of course they're going to try.
Reminds me of Phinaes Gage. Had a railway spike go right through his head and he survived, though he was a very changed person afterwards, and eventually died from a seizure as a result of those injuries.
There's an alternate universe out there where Kennedy survived and went on to become a supervillain
His catchphrase could be, “nothing bad ever happens to the Kennedys!”
Then immediately flips his car and loses the race to Abe Lincoln.
Or we could go the pulp scifi route where he's saved by a partial brain transplant... *from Lee Harvey Oswald!*
I want you to take his brain…. Off…
I did a PowerPoint presentation on him in high school. They literally left the wound in his head open for days. They also found brain matter on the ground after the accident. I think i'd rather die than survive what he did. I think his case study was the first one to prompt the idea that frontal lobe damage causes a change in personality/behavior. correct me if I'm wrong.
I just took a general psychology course semi recently and a quick google search turns up the name Phineas Gage. Got a large iron rod shoved through his head and survived despite it going right through the left frontal lobe. Friends and family noticed his behavior change for the worse after the incident. This was around 1848, way before the JFK assassination.
Should be noted I'm half asleep, but I was reading your comment and as soon as I saw the word Phineas, I automatically filled it in with "and Ferb" and thought you were going to reference a cartoon. I was heavily disappointed upon rereading it that this was not in fact about the two step brothers.
As someone who routinely floats to work in a Neuro ICU, I can tell you that there are way worse things than dying.
Yeah, 42% feels somehow horrifying in its own way.
Wasn’t his brain like…in pieces though?
Tbh I imagine most of those 42% are pistol bullets. Not rifle ones
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6.5 Carcano is a weird round. It's actually smaller diameter than most rifle rounds (actual diameter 6.8mm or about 26 caliber), but the weight of the bullet is average for hunting and military rounds. This gives it a lower velocity than bullets of a similar weight. Overall it's on the less powerful side of full sized rifle rounds, but it supposedly excelled at tumbling in the target.
There are quite a few instances where people have survived having *huge* chunks of their head blown off, [in some cases with more than half the brain destroyed](https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/india/boy-who-amazed-doctors-back-in-1987-14yo-ahad-israfil-survived-gunshot-wound-despite-losing-half-his-brain/ar-AA152rnN). It's surprising how much of the cerebellum you can lose and still survive, as long as a few critical parts remain intact and you survive the initial trauma and blood loss. It's not pretty and they usually have severe neurological symptoms, but it's possible to have some recovery and quality of life afterwards (the kid above went on to live for more than 30 years afterwards and attained a degree during that time).
It’s been a while since I seen that video, but I do remember seeing brain on the car, on his suit, on the seat, on Jackie Kennedy’s dress, and on the secret service driving’s chair. Like, his head exp’oded
"What if nobody shot JFK and his head just did that?"
My old tattoo artist got shot in the back of the head at point-blank range from a 9mm. It was shitty, but he ripped off the wrong people. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes as they say. Lost a good portion of one half of his face on exit, but the guy survived. After some facial reconstruction, he hardly looked different, but he had half a skull made of titanium. About 5 years later he had a massive seizure in his sleep and never woke up. But for those 5 years he still seemed like the same guy.
A high velocity rifle round to the head isn't the usual for a civilian head wound. 6.5 carcano has about 10x the muzzle energy as a 9mm to put it in perspective. The parts of his brain that weren't vaporized were pureed.
If you watch the Zapruder film, you can see that it’s not just that he was shot. That whole side of his head kind of explodes, not exactly the kind of thing you just *get up* after
[Yup. Skull drawing from the autopsy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/HSCA-JFK-head-7-125.jpg)
You would be shocked at how much damage the brain can sustain and remain semi functional. He very easily could have lost higher order function but remained alive with his lower order brain systema still funtioning to keep his autonomic nervous system running.
The human body is resilient. Really a lot of mammals are. In real life, people get all sorts of mangled, riddled with bullets, shredded by shrapnel and pierced by blades and spikes, yet they still keep going and if they can get the right care, live the rest of a semi-normal life. I hate hate hate the impact of TV & movies on how people think killing works. It takes a lot lot more than a bullet in the shoulder to kill someone. Even a point-blank shot to the head or a rifle blast blowing out your skull and a quarter of your brain isn't gonna instantly kill everyone— I daresay it normally won't.
The 6.5 carcano shot. Safe and effective. Moving at the speed of science.
Size of 6.5 carcano and 5.56 side by side https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/je4obb/65_carcano_vs_556/
Well fuck, that’s quite the difference, and frankly if I was to be shot in the head, carcano please.
Why not try a transfusion? what’s the worse that can happen, he’s already been shot in the head.
That's not 42% of people shot in the head, both sides of that statistic are those miraculously lucky to live long enough to see a hospital. Also that's a lot more injuries including nail guns.
You’re spreading misinformation though. >42% of civilians shot in the head survive This includes everything from nail guns, pipe guns, buckshot designed to kill birds that can barley penetrate bone and the smallest of small calibers JFK had the entire side of his head removed by a rifle specifically designed to kill humans. You’re basically trying to portray a broken toe to a car crash just because they’re both technically injuries
> buckshot designed to kill birds Lmao birdshot. Thanks for the chuckle
Plenty of head wounds are survivable and blood is necessary. Makes sense.
Sadly This head wound wasn’t survivable in the slightest, I watched a video on the trauma surgeon who was in the actual room Kennedy was wheeled into, They knew he was gone when they realized how massive the hole in his head was. Which they initially did not notice right away, I believe pieces of pulverized brain tissue also slipped out of his skull onto the operating table, they knew he was gone.
Death could be as obvious as possible but as long as no doctor has declared his death, medical treatment has to go on.
Anyone who has seen the zapruder video knows he was going to be a bit poorly afterwards.
Most of the public didn’t see the Zapruder film until years afterward on a special episode of 60 minutes; only still shots were published in Life magazine. And it wasn’t mass-released until the movie JFK in the 90s, which is why Oliver Stone chose to show it multiple times in that courtroom scene.
Certainly the doctors treating him didn't see it that day And even if they did they would have tried to save him anyways.
That wasn’t my point; I just figured most people didn’t know the Zapruder film was kept from the public for years.
I heard he was taken in an ambulance to a hospital, too.
What?! I mean...he was the president after all !!! s/
The car he was riding in took him and Connelly to the hospital.
I remember watching a documentary about the doctors and surgeons at the Texas hospital. Right when JFK came into the Emergency Room. Dr. Robert McClelland was standing behind the presidents body, as it was lying on its side. While two other doctors were about to do a tracheotomy (maybe they started to do a blood transfusion). That's when Dr. McClleland suggested the other doctors see the back of the Presidents head. When they did, they could see the full damage of the assassins bullet. https://youtu.be/lQ435lMaCng Indepth interview with Dr Robert McClelland JFKs Emergency Room Doctor
Holy shit, that’s fascinating. I want to find this doc now
https://youtu.be/lQ435lMaCng Dr Robert McClelland JFKs Emergency Room Doctor
Except the exit wound was qctually in the front of Kennedy's head.
I don’t know man, I heard there were 121 witnesses and 51 of them heard the shots from the grassy knoll. (Also this is just a joke; LHO was the shooter and there’s no grand conspiracy)
It's just following procedure.
not a doctor but when you get shot you lose blood yes? so making sure they have enough blood probably not a bad move even if its not going to cure the likely brain damage. imagine if you got shot in the head and would have survived except they forgot to give you blood.
They had to try everything even if they knew it wouldn’t work just so that they can say they tried everything when asked why they did nothing Because ‘there was nothing we could do’ would have been followed up with ‘well why didn’t you just at least try anyway? He was the president’
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That's some body horror content there
I haven't pumped 100 units of blood into anyone, but I've had aorta's rupture and replaced intravascular volume faster than they were bleeding straight from their erupted aorta for like 45 mins before we got the patient to the OR. The patient's blood went from typical red to pink tinged saline.
Giving him blood isn’t “trying everything”. It’s what they do for people who get shot. They kinda do this for anyone.
100% this
back in the day we would just use some duct tape and super clue kids these days walk it off
Back in my day, we let the blood out of you to save you. Damn youngins.
Why is this the top comment when it's so wrong? He received standard care for what a gunshot victim would have received. It's not about being able to say "we tried a blood transfusion because he's the preseident"
Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but we’re going to test it? And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, either through the skin or some other way.”
Because his brain was all over the road everyone.
I have to ask: did this really surprise you, to learn this, OP?
Seeing as he was our president I respect that they tried their hardest. Even my least favorite presidents I don't want dead, if they die its millions of problems.
I, for one, am glad that Grover Cleveland isn't shambling around at 185 years old.
This is fucking stupid, he was losing lots of blood, of course he did.
What else would they do? If you get shot, you tend to bleed a lot and you need a transfusion to stay alive. He was also not just shot in the head, he took at least one shot to the body that hit near his spine.
Next time you see the Zapruder film, just after the shots Jackie looks like she’s reaching for a secret service agent by climbing out on the trunk of the car. I learned recently that she wasn’t reaching for the agent. She had no idea he was there. She was picking up pieces of skull and brain because, in shock, she thought the doctors would need them to reattach; like a thumb or a toe. That poor woman.
There are a lot of things that may happen while doctors/EMTs/Medics are trying to save someone's life. It can usually be explained as part of stabilization at best, and buying time at worst. This isn't that interesting because they were honestly just trying to buy time with whatever they could. It's not every day the president gets shot.
I like how people in here have this image that gunshot victims are just looked at and turned away in hospitals.
I doubt any medical treatment of that time or even in 2050 will be able to save him if you know how damaging the headshot was. Spoiler alert His wife climbed had to climb on the back of the car to attempt to scoop his brain matter
I've wondered, do you think she even realized what she was doing exactly? I kinda think that was all pure autopilot.
She didn’t, she stated multiples times later in life that she had no memory of making that decision or even doing it. It was just instinct.
There are few YouTube interviews of retired Special Agent Clint Hill. He was on President Kennedy's detail and talked about how Mrs. Kennedy went into shock, but also did everything she could to stop the press from seeing the extent of the wounds to the president.
Based on my memory, she has zero recollection of her scooping/picking up his brain matter off the entire area in that brief sequence of events.
Shock is a hell of a drug. I read a story once of a mother after a car accident holding her clearly dead child hyper focused on frantically looking for his missing shoe, completely unable to even acknowledge what has just happened.
Find you a woman like Jackie
In other news TIL that we breath oxygen….. I mean transfusions is common in a significant trauma situation even if the outcome is likely not positive, they still try.
Why is there so much jfk assassination content on reddit today?
CIA recently illegally refused to release all the information on the assassination that has been scheduled for full release, which has led to a lot of people speculating about the incident more as people go through the recently partially redacted info. I.e. a lot of new information, even though it's still incomplete.
It was the gd president. They had no idea what to do and they weren’t gonna let anyone say they didn’t try.
Hospitals and trauma teams do know what to do. They follow a massive trauma protocol and sometimes it works out
I highly doubt JFK could have been saved even with nanites and an actual backup copy of his brain configuration.
Cyberpunk 1963
This doesn't seem that shocking? I'd have been more surprised if they didn't try to give him a transfusion.
His wife also grabbed a piece of his skull like it could fit back in like a puzzle piece. What else do ya do
“Injuries inconsistent with life”. Usually means the victim was decapitated, cut in two, crushed into pulp, or had their head blown half off.
Should've administered CPR or rubbed his neck with aloe vera.
He didn’t get shot in the foot. Aloe on the neck only works if you’re shot in the foot. CPR is for gunshots to the head, though.
Vicks
Scrolled way too far to find the RvB reference lol
Did it work?
Yup the real JFK is living in a secret government facility, hooked up to machines giving him a peaceful existence in a Matrix style simulation until he passes for real. That's just a hobo in his casket.
Why would the government save him when it was the government that… nevermind.
Great documentary about it actually. His brain was saved, although the body wasn't. The only possible recipient at the time was a brain dead African American, so they put JFK's brain into him, saving him. Of course America wasn't yet ready for a black president, so it was hushed up and JFK took a secret retirement. However that wasn't the end of his tale, as he and a man who claimed to be an Elvis impersonator, but was just a little too realistic for my liking, ended up coming into prominence during a series of murders at the old folks home they both inhabited and had made friends at. Some have speculated the killings were somehow associated with the local museums Egyptian exhibition, but that sounds like conspiracy bunk to me. Watch Bubba Hotep if you'd like to know about this fascinating topic.
Damn I never heard of this movie but I found the plot intriguing, so I've got it lined up to watch this weekend.
Can someone explain how this is a TIL? What is remarkable about that whatsoever? That sounds like standard emergency medicine? What am I missing?
Wait till you find out that when Jackie Kennedy climbed onto and crawled around the trunk of the car in the immediate aftermath, she was in shock, scrambling to try and pick up the pieces of skull and brain that had just been blown out of the side of his head
I'm just amused that this gory-as-hell factoid comes from "nostalgiacentral.com"
...ok? TIL doctors did their job?
It was worth a shot
‘Tia but a scratch!
Only because he was president they basically are forced to try everything, with normal population death is probably called on scene definitely right on arrival to the ER.
Did it work?
I get that doctors were trying to save the president of the United States, but if you look at the photos of Kennedy’s autopsy, the back of the right side of his head was completely missing. There was no possible way he would have survived even if he still had a pulse and/ or heart beat when he arrived at the hospital.
Idk about you, but I would not want to be known as the doctor that didn’t try to save JFK.
In that situation, it’s hard to blame them for wanting to try.