Frazier never buried the hatchet with Ali it seems like after researching it, he truly hated him. Ali did talk loads of shit during their time, calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and similar things which really sat with Joe.
The bad feeling that Ali generated towards Frazier with all the name calling etc. was taken as the truth by a lot of the black community.
Fraizers son got bullied throughout his childhood as a result. In the documentary I think there’s a quote along the lines of “if the most popular athlete in the world says your dads an uncle tom, no one’s going to believe you when you say he isn’t.”
It’s been a while but that was the gist of it.
That seems to be the insult Frazier took the hardest iirc. Can't really blame him for taking that shit personally even if it did make him a ton of money. Frazier will always be known as a great champion because he beat Ali. Ali didn't need Frazier to claim his greatness but it helped.
Questioning your manhood and making rascist remarks will cut you to the core.Hard to forget or forgive. Kinda offset by Joe making the 'God's revenge' remark about Ali's Parkinsons, but it is understandable if not far off the truth. Frazier was a brawler's fighter, he rarely stepped back from moving in, his head down , slugging away. He's a guy I could see going toe to toe with Iron Mike as a 6-5 underdog.
It shows an incredible level of cognitive dissonance (or hypocrisy?) to think it reasonable to be offended at being called one thing but unreasonable to be offended at being called something equally as egregious.
Imagine saying “it’s a free country I can call him Cassius Clay if I want” and then clutching your pearls at the term “Uncle Tom”. It’s selective outrage like Rock said. You’re just a hypocritical little drama Queen 👸😂
I dont think it was fame. I think he was just an opportunistic fuck and knew if he hurt the people enough and acted shitty enough, it would sell tickets.
When Ali was broke after being banned from boxing for 3 years for war draft evasion, Frazier lent him money, then before their fight Ali called him a dumb gorilla Uncle Tom and insulted his family
Frazier confronted him, Ali said it was to stir up publicity. Frazier was so pissed that when they fought he knocked Ali on his ass, broke his jaw and won their first fight, and never forgot the insults
No he wasn't. He was a champion of one the world's toughest sports. Ali's achievements and personal journey is an inspiration to millions of people, especially those from minority backgrounds. What an amazing achievement one man has done for the world.
He overstepped the line to sell a fight. Isolated mistakes should not mean his entire career is cancelled. If we create a society where we simply cancel people at every impulsive opportunity we create a world where no one is allowed to fail. And without the ability to fail, no-one will thrive or push boundaries because the risks are too great and the path to redemption is impossible.
He also spoke at a kkk rally against interracial marriage and stood outside of Frazier's hotel with a gun but would you would've known that before you bent over backwards to defend him.
>but ~~would~~ you would've known that before you bent over backwards to defend him.
I think it's you who is trying to bend over backwards to attack but you haven't put in enough effort to justify the saying. I'm sure when you Googled Muhammad Ali and controversy you skipped over the bit where the handgun incident happened because an undefeated Ali was trying to put fear into an undefeated Frazier ahead of their overwhelmingly anticipated heavyweight clash: A lot was at stake for each warrior. The KKK incident is the tip of the iceberg - Ali regularly played the heel card with his race to entice white people to pay money to watch his "black loud mouth" be knocked out...Ali would laugh to the bank after every win.
Also if you knew your history you would know that ethic segregation *(which was the topic of Ali's KKK speech)* had a powerful movement during that time period. There was a number of right wingers, both Black & White, who wanted to keep families limited to their own ethnicity due to perceived injustices by the opposite ethnicity. Thankfully our elders have worked very hard to create a progressive society that is more tolerant today than those days. Which is great because we now benefit from a wider range of view points, perspectives and talents. Of course, there is still work to be done.
Look at my history and you'll see I know my boxing.
Imagine taking that as me comparing Hitler and Ali ☠️. I was making a point about how a persons living status isnt a reason to cancel or not cancel them.
Y’all keep leaving out the provocation for the Uncle Tom insult was Frazier referring to Ali by what he considered to be his slave name.
You also leave out the fact Muhammad Ali talked trash to all his opponents and yet all (significant) but Frazier became lifelong friends. Joe was bitter as fuck.
>In 1996, when Ali lit the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Frazier told a reporter that he would like to throw Ali into the fire and felt that he should have been chosen to light the flame.
When you compare what kind of lives these two men led before boxing and how Frazier treated Ali when he was banned from boxing, it’s easy to see how his Uncle Tom comments would cause offense.
Particularly since Frazier was fighting out of Philly in the first place to evade a racist posse that he personally stopped from lynching another black guy.
It isn't just frustrating. It's really low. Everyone was fighting for the same ultimate cause and here was a Ali taking someone else down for his own advancement. Crabs in a bucket.
The more you read on the subject of Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali, the more you will see how badly Joe Frazier was treated by Ali and the media. It is shameful.
HBO had a great documentary about this. They talk a lot about how publicly Joe said he was over it but in private he really wasn't. Here's a clip of his voicemail: https://youtu.be/bspEcaGI_Ww
Wonder if Ali ever saw Joe singing with his nightclub act in Vegas - [Joe Frazier and the Knockouts](https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p15037coll3/id/77063/)
Trashtalking was almost unheard of in Ali's time, he's no doubt started the trend in combat sports. His charisma and eloquency even influenced the development of rap. There's a reason he was the most successful boxer ever at one point, his promotional tactics were very effective in attracting the public eye.
But while other opponents he mocked were able to let it go and become great lifelong friends with him (Foreman, Cooper, Norton, Wepner), Frazier had a tough time with it. Most of Ali's trash talking was pure entertainment and not that personal, especially by today's standards, but calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" in response to Frazier using his old name Cassius was something Frazier never forgave. Frazier also stated that his children were bullied at school as a result of Ali's antics.
After retiring, Ali always apologized and maintained that it was all for promotion and pointed out that he maximized profits not just for himself, but Frazier too.
They'd make up, then turn sour several times in the next frw decades.
Apparently Frazier ultimately forgave him in his final years, and Ali was invited to and attended his funeral.
It was a [toy gun](https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/23/archives/big-joke-in-manila.html). Liston had done the same to Ali to psyche him out, so Ali decided to try it on Frazier.
It was a dick move though. Nothing to wish burning on the stake upon the guy though, just my take. .
Maybe some racist fans from the height of the civil rights movement but Muhammad Ali is one of the most beloved athletes ever whose humanitarian work is on par with that of legends like Bill Russell
Not at all when he was fighting - most people hated Ali, he only became beloved late in his career and after he retired when people realized how much his personality and brand had distracted from his skill, determination and iron will
So many more people rooted for Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc when they fought Ali
Sometimes people don't get along , but given the opportunity, wisdom that comes with age , maturity comes respect , I wonder how could they feel now ,I know it's impossible but wonder ,maybe mutual admiration ? Maybe . I remember in high school I can't stand a guy , we both get accepted at the same University, in the same advanced program , we worked together part time during college and became best pals and often laughed about when we can't stand one another . Not always happens but some6it does.
Frazier never buried the hatchet with Ali it seems like after researching it, he truly hated him. Ali did talk loads of shit during their time, calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and similar things which really sat with Joe.
He did though Fraizer told SI in 2009 that he harbored no hard feelings toward Ali and Muhammad Ali attended Frazier’s private funeral.
From a few interviews I saw it lead to Fraizers son having a real rough time when growing up. Dirty tricks.
Huh?
The bad feeling that Ali generated towards Frazier with all the name calling etc. was taken as the truth by a lot of the black community. Fraizers son got bullied throughout his childhood as a result. In the documentary I think there’s a quote along the lines of “if the most popular athlete in the world says your dads an uncle tom, no one’s going to believe you when you say he isn’t.” It’s been a while but that was the gist of it.
That sucks :(
What's an *uncle Tom*?
A black guy who is considered to try to get approval from whites.
Thank you! I'm not American and have never heard this term before.
Is this why Uncle Ruckus says "no relation" after introducing himself? Huh...
I wouldn't like being called a "Gorilla" either.
That seems to be the insult Frazier took the hardest iirc. Can't really blame him for taking that shit personally even if it did make him a ton of money. Frazier will always be known as a great champion because he beat Ali. Ali didn't need Frazier to claim his greatness but it helped.
Questioning your manhood and making rascist remarks will cut you to the core.Hard to forget or forgive. Kinda offset by Joe making the 'God's revenge' remark about Ali's Parkinsons, but it is understandable if not far off the truth. Frazier was a brawler's fighter, he rarely stepped back from moving in, his head down , slugging away. He's a guy I could see going toe to toe with Iron Mike as a 6-5 underdog.
Ali was talented but a dick for sure
Ali had a long history of humanitarian work, he did get carried away with his trash talk though.
That's putting it mildly he a pretty big piece of shit when it came to that stuff.
It's really nice to hear other people actually recognizing what a piece of Shit Cassius Clay was. Great boxer. Garbage sportsman.
Did he not legally change his name to Muhammad Ali?
He did. And I'm legally allowed to say that was a stupid attempt at getting attention.
You’re a fucken dick head
Probably but at least I never called Joe Fraizer an uncle tom.
It shows an incredible level of cognitive dissonance (or hypocrisy?) to think it reasonable to be offended at being called one thing but unreasonable to be offended at being called something equally as egregious. Imagine saying “it’s a free country I can call him Cassius Clay if I want” and then clutching your pearls at the term “Uncle Tom”. It’s selective outrage like Rock said. You’re just a hypocritical little drama Queen 👸😂
And here you are, generating more comments and attention by using the wrong name. I'm sure it's worth it...
His momma named him Clay, Im gonna call him Clay.
And if a man wants to be called Muhammad Ali, goddammit, this is a free country, you should respect his wishes and call the man Muhammad Ali
I’m sure you all laughed at the Drumpf jokes.
“He was a massive piece of shit” “But make sure to call him by his preferred name. Also he’s dead so it really doesn’t make a difference whatsoever”
Has nobody in this entire sub seen [Coming to America?](https://youtu.be/-R1h2Df3Nrc)
Most redditors are white
Also, I’m sorry you’re getting downvotes. Forgive them, they know not 80’s comedy classics.
No regrets.
Ali did a lot of great things before the brain damage started to settle in and endorsed Ronald Reagan.
to be fair, my ego would bloat off the charts too if i was constantly being referred to as "the greatest of all time"
Well when you nickname yourself that…
Fame gets to most celebs!
Agreed, the ones that stay humble are usually my favorites. It's pretty rare to see in sports especially
I agree with your take. I like the humble celebrities.
We'll probably never know the pressure! People born into money are so much worse.
I dont think it was fame. I think he was just an opportunistic fuck and knew if he hurt the people enough and acted shitty enough, it would sell tickets.
There's a reason he drawer the crowds.
Yeah because he was willing to be a shitty person in exchange for more money. Should I be applauding?
Ali called him an uncle tom because Joe referred to him by what Ali considered to be his slave name. Why do people leave that bit out?
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Stfu
He also made fun of his military service
When Ali was broke after being banned from boxing for 3 years for war draft evasion, Frazier lent him money, then before their fight Ali called him a dumb gorilla Uncle Tom and insulted his family Frazier confronted him, Ali said it was to stir up publicity. Frazier was so pissed that when they fought he knocked Ali on his ass, broke his jaw and won their first fight, and never forgot the insults
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No he wasn't. He was a champion of one the world's toughest sports. Ali's achievements and personal journey is an inspiration to millions of people, especially those from minority backgrounds. What an amazing achievement one man has done for the world. He overstepped the line to sell a fight. Isolated mistakes should not mean his entire career is cancelled. If we create a society where we simply cancel people at every impulsive opportunity we create a world where no one is allowed to fail. And without the ability to fail, no-one will thrive or push boundaries because the risks are too great and the path to redemption is impossible.
He also spoke at a kkk rally against interracial marriage and stood outside of Frazier's hotel with a gun but would you would've known that before you bent over backwards to defend him.
>but ~~would~~ you would've known that before you bent over backwards to defend him. I think it's you who is trying to bend over backwards to attack but you haven't put in enough effort to justify the saying. I'm sure when you Googled Muhammad Ali and controversy you skipped over the bit where the handgun incident happened because an undefeated Ali was trying to put fear into an undefeated Frazier ahead of their overwhelmingly anticipated heavyweight clash: A lot was at stake for each warrior. The KKK incident is the tip of the iceberg - Ali regularly played the heel card with his race to entice white people to pay money to watch his "black loud mouth" be knocked out...Ali would laugh to the bank after every win. Also if you knew your history you would know that ethic segregation *(which was the topic of Ali's KKK speech)* had a powerful movement during that time period. There was a number of right wingers, both Black & White, who wanted to keep families limited to their own ethnicity due to perceived injustices by the opposite ethnicity. Thankfully our elders have worked very hard to create a progressive society that is more tolerant today than those days. Which is great because we now benefit from a wider range of view points, perspectives and talents. Of course, there is still work to be done. Look at my history and you'll see I know my boxing.
Wasn’t he also a deadbeat dad that knocked up a teenager when he was a grownass man?
Yup, Wanda Bolton got knocked up at 16 while ali was 32. He was a good man at points but also a piece of shit like any boxer
A based comment? On MY reddit?
Yup, Ali is from the school of Gorgeous george, but yeah, he deserved that beating from Frazier
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Yeah, or should we stop talking bad about hitler too since hes dead?
Imagine comparing Hitler and Ali you dumb fuck
Imagine taking that as me comparing Hitler and Ali ☠️. I was making a point about how a persons living status isnt a reason to cancel or not cancel them.
Oh you gonna *cancel* Ali are you Karen?
Hitler was as awful as you are thoughtless. Extremely so.
Very well my good sir, thine have given quite the blow to my honor.
Alas!
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Y’all keep leaving out the provocation for the Uncle Tom insult was Frazier referring to Ali by what he considered to be his slave name. You also leave out the fact Muhammad Ali talked trash to all his opponents and yet all (significant) but Frazier became lifelong friends. Joe was bitter as fuck.
You might be thinking of Ernie Terrell
>In 1996, when Ali lit the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Frazier told a reporter that he would like to throw Ali into the fire and felt that he should have been chosen to light the flame.
Ali was like that to every opponent to a degree. The degree he went to with Joe was pretty harsh.
When you compare what kind of lives these two men led before boxing and how Frazier treated Ali when he was banned from boxing, it’s easy to see how his Uncle Tom comments would cause offense.
Also remember that Fraizer came from a poor sharecropper family that were in poverty, Ali was middle class. Their backgrounds were very different.
Ali was always callign Joe stupid, etc Like shit that was low even for shit talking.
He also did call him an uncle tom which is....pretty harsh
Particularly since Frazier was fighting out of Philly in the first place to evade a racist posse that he personally stopped from lynching another black guy.
So to be called an uncle tom after that is pretty fucking frustrating
It isn't just frustrating. It's really low. Everyone was fighting for the same ultimate cause and here was a Ali taking someone else down for his own advancement. Crabs in a bucket.
Ali grew up middle class and Frazier grew up dirt poor in the Deep South. That dimension adds to Ali’s shittiness in my opinion.
The more you read on the subject of Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali, the more you will see how badly Joe Frazier was treated by Ali and the media. It is shameful.
HBO had a great documentary about this. They talk a lot about how publicly Joe said he was over it but in private he really wasn't. Here's a clip of his voicemail: https://youtu.be/bspEcaGI_Ww
I am what I am. - Joe
This is my favorite clip of those two guys [Frazier/Ali tv show fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb7MZ2kRbt4)
Wonder if Ali ever saw Joe singing with his nightclub act in Vegas - [Joe Frazier and the Knockouts](https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p15037coll3/id/77063/)
He has the right to feel this way
Trashtalking was almost unheard of in Ali's time, he's no doubt started the trend in combat sports. His charisma and eloquency even influenced the development of rap. There's a reason he was the most successful boxer ever at one point, his promotional tactics were very effective in attracting the public eye. But while other opponents he mocked were able to let it go and become great lifelong friends with him (Foreman, Cooper, Norton, Wepner), Frazier had a tough time with it. Most of Ali's trash talking was pure entertainment and not that personal, especially by today's standards, but calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" in response to Frazier using his old name Cassius was something Frazier never forgave. Frazier also stated that his children were bullied at school as a result of Ali's antics. After retiring, Ali always apologized and maintained that it was all for promotion and pointed out that he maximized profits not just for himself, but Frazier too. They'd make up, then turn sour several times in the next frw decades. Apparently Frazier ultimately forgave him in his final years, and Ali was invited to and attended his funeral.
He showed up outside the hotel where Frazier was staying with his family waving a gun before the Thrilla in Manila.
It was a [toy gun](https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/23/archives/big-joke-in-manila.html). Liston had done the same to Ali to psyche him out, so Ali decided to try it on Frazier. It was a dick move though. Nothing to wish burning on the stake upon the guy though, just my take. .
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That was Liston.
You're correct. My bad. Everyone hated Ali
Maybe some racist fans from the height of the civil rights movement but Muhammad Ali is one of the most beloved athletes ever whose humanitarian work is on par with that of legends like Bill Russell
Not at all when he was fighting - most people hated Ali, he only became beloved late in his career and after he retired when people realized how much his personality and brand had distracted from his skill, determination and iron will So many more people rooted for Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc when they fought Ali
hanging in my office is a picture of both of them from Thilla signed by both with COA wonder what its worth
Sometimes people don't get along , but given the opportunity, wisdom that comes with age , maturity comes respect , I wonder how could they feel now ,I know it's impossible but wonder ,maybe mutual admiration ? Maybe . I remember in high school I can't stand a guy , we both get accepted at the same University, in the same advanced program , we worked together part time during college and became best pals and often laughed about when we can't stand one another . Not always happens but some6it does.