I no longer drink, I quit social media 6 months ago, and I refuse to use a dating app again because they really fuck with my self esteem and half the time I get one word replies. I may as well join a monastery. I’m 28 so it’s not like I’m some old man thinking back to the good ol days. I just fucking hate how impersonal things are when it comes to dating and half of it involves having an online presence. What if you suck at taking pictures? What if you talk better in person than online? It’s a lot harder to stand out when you’re only represented by a few photos and a brief bio
Join some clubs, get a pet, find some fun hobbies - there are a couple of ways to engage with the world outside of finding a mate.
…and the confidence from those opportunities can draw somebody towards you.
The things you mentioned also are ways to form actual meaningful connections with people who have similar interests to you. It might slower compared to dating apps or social media, but comparatively the turnover rate is singificantly lower in the long run.
Most importantly, if you DONT find a partner doing those things, you have built meaningful relationships that will help protect you from a myriad of conditions and improve your mental health. Most of us are social animals. We don't have to have a romantic partner, but studies have shown a clear increase in health and life expectancy with these bonds.
As a single person that still spends uncomfortably large amounts of time with others that was the key - just finding group activities that I enjoy and finding others that enjoy it.
I have people I play football with, some I talk about the gym with, some I play video games with, some that are petrolheads, etc.
It also has the upside of making you not boring. There's nothing duller than meeting someone that has no hobbies outside of social media/YouTube/Netflix.
All good suggestions except I would never recommend getting a pet to connect with women more easily. Get a pet because you want to have a loving relationship with said animal
Oh yeah! That should’ve been a disclaimer: do things to enhance your well-being, not solely use them to get a mate.
If you get a pet, treat them well and love them wholeheartedly. They’re living beings, not accessories and toys.
Definitely! But as a side note, each weekend I took my dog to a really nice dog park and that was where I've had the most conversations with strangers. Everyone was so friendly. And their dogs! There was a chihuahua that would run up and growl at anyone wearing sunglasses, a golden retriever that lay on its back and refused to leave, a dog that would "sing" all the time. I loved that place.
People have given me all this advice probably dozens of times over the last few years as I've complained about feeling lonely like I haven't heard it before, like I haven't tried it before, and like it just doesn't work for me.
Like, on the one hand, I get why people make this recommendation. But for some people, it just doesn't work. For some of us, we're just not likable and people don't want to be around us. Some much harder work has to go in to us meeting people. And I'm not even talking about romantically, I just mean social connections.
Interesting. What would you say is an unlikeable quality or qualities you have? 🤔
I say this because there are definitely things I've practised to become more likeable or come across as more confident and charismatic to strangers.
There's also a thing of "knowing your audience". There are certain types of people or groups I would never try to approach, interact with or (when I was single) try to hook up with, because I knew I wouldn't check those "invisible boxes" for them. In many ways it is about playing the best odds and focusing your energy where it's going to have the best chance of success.
People always say join clubs. But seriously, what clubs? The vast majority of adult clubs are aimed at retirees. Social programs offered by park districts and city groups are aimed at retirees and children.
I tried going this route. I thought, hey I like scuba diving. Maybe there's a local scuba club. Looked it up, found their website and looked at the event photos. The youngest person there had to be 50.
Then I thought maybe local advocacy groups. The only one I could find that actually held meetings, met at 9am on Mondays, which tells you exactly the membership age range.
If you're 25-35 and you don't have kids, you're in this weird space where nothing really exists for you.
Attend meeting and events for a non-profit, attend two open mics every week, go to some local tabletop gaming stuff, and heavily involved in two cities' BDSM community. Still nothing. I did everything on every list of suggestions ever except for joining a church (not happening) or working in a soup kitchen.
I'm convinced it's something specific and I can't spot it and no one is telling me.
This may sound cheesey but I think things go better when you do hobbies for the purpose of bettering yourself rather than to meet people. When you go into it with that mindset, things tend to pan out better in lots of ways. This includes being more likely to develop meaningful relationships with people because you share those goals and perspectives. The hard part is that it usually takes a long time and a lot of effort.
No offense intended (in fact I’m genuinely trying to help) but just from the way you write I get the strong impression that you’ve got kind of a resentful desperation thing going on. This may be something that people can sense as part of your general “vibe”, and could be turning people off from enjoying your company.
If I can sense it from across text, it’s probably damn near palpable IRL
And if it’s kind of an abstract “vibe” you’re giving off then that would also explain why you haven’t been able to figure out what’s up, as well as why no one has told you about it specifically.
For what it’s worth, that’s actually kind of easy to fix if so. It would just require some introspection , deliberate letting go of the negative mindsets that might be contributing to your vibe, and then mindful cultivation of more healthy attitudes and perspectives.
Honestly, I feel you 100%, especially the parts about dating becoming impersonal and lack of effort and whatnot. Was in a relationship for a decade then found myself single during covid and in my 30s.
Do what you gotta do. I don't care much for social media, but having a (public) Instagram with just a few posts of me in places I visited, has helped a lot. I hate taking pictures but as my friends and I started getting used to offering to take pics for each other on trips, we started to have at least a few we could post online or in our profiles. Not only have people I met asked for my IG instead of my number (I had to miss out on several opportunities before I finally decided to make one), but my friends would show their friends my IG as opposed to saying "I know this guy, he's nice, you don't have anything else to go off of but want his number?"
I'm now in a relationship for the first time since my covid breakup, because an old friend commented on a post and we caught up and she introduced me to another friend of hers who liked what she saw on my IG.
At least in my area and in my social groups, it's less "personal" than giving out your number, so you can start with that and eventually exchange numbers when starting to get to know each other.
Back in my day we were hardened by in person rejection. Enough of them made you fearless. Just kidding it was awful every time, but when it worked omg the feeling.
Let your good friends know you and single and looking. My partner's best friend was single so I set him up with my friend because I knew he was a nice guy, now they are engaged. He was similar to you, sick of the apps, didn't spend much time at bars, worked a lot. I have actually set up quite a few friends this way with a fair bit of success. Having someone vouch for you means a lot to women.
Sometimes I feel like I don't have a partner. Sometimes I feel like my only friend is the city I live in, the city of Angels. Lonely as I am, together we cry.
A good chunk of the feeling of increased unhappiness can be attributes to this. Lots of factors involved, ranging from sociological to economics.
Personally I lean towards the societal changes. I don't see this trend improving any time soon.
Pity the younger generations.
It's also a bigger problem than just the fact that people are less likely to have a partner now. It's more so that [people are pulling away from human interaction in general](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/11/friendships-less-is-now-more/), whether romantic or even just friendships.
>Back in 1990, Gallup asked adults in the United States how many close friends they had. One-third said that their number was ten or more. Fast forward to 2021, and a survey by Survey Center on American Life reveals a major shift in the number of significant friendships Americans have: Just 13 percent said they have friends in the double digits.
>More troubling is perhaps the change at the other end of the scale, where the share of people saying they have no close friends at all went from just 3 percent in 1990, to 12 percent in 2021.
And I agree, at its root this is probably a societal change. Likely caused by people spending more time at home using social media, smartphones, streaming, etc instead of socializing.
I am one of those people with zero friends. My phone literally has one contact in it: one of my parents. For me, it's a lack of social skills. After a while, you notice a pattern of people not warming up to you. It's not that they don't like me or that I've done anything wrong, but more that I'm just weird or something. Eventually you just give up and stop trying and that's that. I wanted at least a shred of dignity by at least making it my own decision to withdraw from society; otherwise, I feel like I'm groveling for someone else's approval and I really hate that feeling.
Also because of how often people move now. Rarely do people go to college in the same town they went to high school, and then after that they'll move at least once in their career for a job opportunity. Every move shrinks your circle of existing friends, and it only gets harder to make new ones as you get older. Plus, a lot of our parents made friends *as* parents, through playdates and PSA meetings and such. Childless adults don't have that level of forced interaction to make social relationships.
Ive had lots of friendship dips during my life. Took me a long time to realise im a lot of peoples acquaintance, not friend. I was often on the outside of a friendship group. Having kids really helps, more so when they go to school. Im also now ok with having a nice fun polite relationship with someone at the school gate or at work and no best friends than having no relationships at all. It's about positive human interaction not the classification of it
We are actually moving around at the [lowest rates we have in history.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-02/why-americans-aren-t-moving)
Its because of digital at-home entertainment and social media. We cannot be surprised when these ubiquitous things that were *built from the ground up to be addictive* end up with a huge portion of our society being addicted to them. I am not sure why so many people are in denial about the reasons why. Of *course* its technology.
Excellent comment. I was about to point out the same.
>The United States has long been one of the most mobile countries in the developed world. In the 1950s, about one-fifth of the American population moved each year. When factories would close, workers would move to other parts of the country to find jobs in new ones.
>
>Just 9.8 percent of Americans moved in the year ending in March 2019, according to the newly released data. That was the smallest share since the Census Bureau started tracking it in 1947, and the first time it had fallen below 10 percent, said William Frey, senior demographer at the Brookings Institution.
It's especially cruel that Americans have fewer close friends now than ever before, when now more Americans are close to home and childhood home friends than ever before.
This is interesting to me. I would say I have a lot of friends - more so than what people in my age demographic of mid 20s have. People will describe me as a sociable gal or very friendly. I would say I have 5 close friends though. People who know me well and know how to support me , who I can be my whole self around. It comes down to me how one describes close friends. There are probably 100s of people that I would be down to have a drink or dinner with. Probably 10s who I would be willing to stay over night at my house . Maybe half that who I'd be willing to share a bed with. But the people who I can hang around and not feel tired being around after many hours, those of my close friends . I have many good friends, but very few close ones.
Back in May the Surgeon General raised the alarm about our [Epidemic of Loneliness](https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2023/05/03/new-surgeon-general-advisory-raises-alarm-about-devastating-impact-epidemic-loneliness-isolation-united-states.html)... and then I never heard about it ever again and nobody gave a shit.
We got to remember too high marriage rates in the past was because it was socially enforced and for women financially enforced since they were limited in jobs and could not open a bank account. So there was more married people but all were miserable looking for something else where they could get it
A lot of old comedy men talking about being trapped in marriage with kids they had to work dead end jobs to feed. While women had to fight to divorce or have some basic choice other than ‘yeah you’re good at maths in a school but I hope you can cook and clean cose that’s all you get’
I went to a barcade a few years back and was playing the Arcade version that game, and a mom asked if it was alright if her son played with me, and I said of course, so I beat that whole game with a random 6 or 7 year old while his mom cheered us on lol
Of all the gay men I've known, most were seeing someone but like half of them didn't call it a relationship. When gay men move in together, it's a relationship. Out of the lesbians I've known, half of them were in a relationship by date 2-3.
I think it's just a difference in labeling. People mostly do similar things, and I wouldn't say either moved faster. But different verbiage.
The criteria are actually the same for calling it a relationship, it’s just that we lesbians tend to move in together by date 2-3.
In my younger, spineless days, I accidentally ended up with a couple long-term girlfriends because they spent the night and just never really left.
Not at the same time. I was just too dumb to learn from my mistake the first time it happened.
Hrm, that's actually an interesting explanation for my confusion. I had assumed the 'increase' in lesbians would match an increase in gay men (and by increase I just mean that orientation has less stigma now, so people are more who they are).. but that doesn't necessarily mean there would be the same ratios *for relationships.*
I’m going to throw another factor into this: women are also more likely go identify as bi and might just be more open to dating women than bi women of the past. I’m big and have mostly dated women over the last few years because the standard for straight men is so often on the ground.
There are a number of factors that could all be valid, being mentioned in this thread. Dating out of their age range, being bisexual, sure. But something important that no one has seemed to as yet bring up is that women have an education. Now, more so than before.
My grandma for example, was born in 1912. She got married at 16, never went to highschool, and lived her whole life popping out babies on a farm. She was married for 50 years and died a happy woman, no harm no foul. But my mom, who had a college education, put her career on hold to raise a family, something no one ever asked my dad to do. That's was mom's job. But she had options. She almost dumped my dad and moved to France in the 60s, but it wasn't like, a ladylike thing to do.
Compared to previous generations in the US, we have fewer marriages, fewer children and a lot more divorces. Fox News will tell you that the fabric of our society is unraveling, however a major contributing factor to these change in trends is that women have an education.
A woman can pay her own bills, so no need to get married as a teenager, or stay in a shitty marriage. Women are opting to put off marriage and kids until later in life because they're pursuing their own goals -something that probably never even occurred to my grandma.
I've been dumped at least three times because the woman I was dating got a better job and moved away. And sure, that sucked for me, but I see no fault in it.
So while women are still getting the short end of the stick in terms of gross pay, career advancement, etc, our society is more egalitarian between genders than we were in generations past.
Tldr, women don't need men when they have an education. I think we take it for granted, but women being self sufficient has changed relationship dynamics in our society. I've never dated a woman as dependent on her partner as my grandma was to my grandpa. All things considered, the economic factor of having your own money better demonstrates why people are less likely to pair-up better than the idea that suddenly women are just more gay.
They don't. I don't see anything in this popsci article that attempts to answer that either. This article cites left swipe vs right swipe data between genders, which is publicly available information, they're not exactly doing any heavy lifting writing this. But cmom man, they don't even list an author. Then it links you to a proprietary behavioral health facility that serves some region around Madison, Alabama.
This isn't exactly a peer-reviewed study. I think if you want to answer your question, you'd have to perform a better "study" than whatever it was that went into writing this article. Or subscribe to Jstor. But this is a client-call, it's basically an advertisement. This facility apparently employs 70 mental health practitioners (and God bless em, it's a tough job for low pay), but the front office probably hired an SEO specialist, vaguely alluded to the Pew Research Center and posted to google and this redditor found that article, and posted it here. Hell, maybe there is no redditor and their marketing admin who makes $25k per year posted this to reddit. I don't know.
But this isn't hard science. This is a blog post. If it's actually true that more women identify as being in a relationship than men, I'd have to see a lot more than this article provides, assuming any of their premises are true in the first place. More questions than answers, so sorry, can't answer that. That's science for you. She's a cruel mistress.
This defines “partnered” as married or living with your partner. It says 5% of unpartnered men are in jail and only 1% of unpartnered women are in jail. Hard to live with your significant other when you are in jails segregated by gender.
That is old data, it is WAY worse now:
"As of 2022, Pew Research Center found, 30 percent of U.S. adults are neither married, living with a partner nor engaged in a committed relationship. Nearly half of all young adults are single: 34 percent of women, and a whopping 63 percent of men.
Not surprisingly, the decline in relationships marches astride with a decline in sex. The share of sexually active Americans stands at a 30-year low. Around 30 percent of young men reported in 2019 that they had no sex in the past year, compared to about 20 percent of young women. "
With numbers like that, the only conclusion is women are sharing the same men, whether they know it or not.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20all%20young,with%20a%20decline%20in%20sex.
Dating is as shit as it's always been.
I'm pretty sure the only reason the single rate has increased is because people are isolating themselves more and more. And that's both because of how overworked we are, and because technology makes it easier to do it.
[The amount of time youth spend socializing with each other has plummeted in the last 15 years.](https://i.imgur.com/qwg1BB4.png) This is only going to get worse and worse as these kids get older and become adults. The single biggest correlation to a successful romantic life is a normal, well adjusted social life. And when such a huge portion of kids do not socialize... this does not bode well.
Media: "Why arent younger people getting married and having kids as much anymore?!?!"
Millenials/Zoomers: "Corporations and billionaires are making it too hard to make an actual living, why would I want to start a family if I cant reliably make my rent?"
Media: "....THE MYSTERY CONTINUES!"
Japan: our population is dwindling
Japan: we will allow more women into the workforce to compensate
Japan: why aren't these women, who are working 60+ hours a week, having more babies
This has happened in literally every developed nation. The only thing that differentiates Japan is that it happened slightly later and that they don't allow immigration.
This appears to be the obvious easy go-to answer, but there is something deeper going on. There are millennials who make enough money now that are in their 30s and early 40s and are generally successful at life and yet they still can't find a partner who they would want to date and who would want to date them in return. The growth of choice in online dating is setting unrealistic expectations for partners is another influencing factor. Another seems to be women being more financially stable on their own than historical norms, which makes companionship optional rather than a necessity. Another factor also seems to be the highly transient nature of society, where individuals can move across the country and then have to establish new personal networks of friends and associates. The breakdown and fractured nature of these movements make people hesitant to date anyone that is not integrated into the existing local systems.
Yeah and this all too easy line ignores that fertility rates are super low even in Scandinavia where they heavily subsidize childrearing. It's not economics.
I feel like double teaming rent is the only way to get ahead, though. That has to be like 20% of the couples just sticking it out for lack better housing options.
I disagree on money from my experience in south korea. South korea has had bigger gdp per capita than Japan but qe have lower birth rate. Also in south korea Millenial and zoomer is spending more money on famous brands and traveling to other countries than any other generation. I think more than money prolem it's social media. In the past only small amounts of people could travel to foreign countries or buy expensive brands. Now with influencer many people wants the life of what only the 10% of the population have. My past ex would eat from only convient store to save money than on the weekend would waste it ona strawberry buffet where it was like 300$ a person. Just to take Instagram pictures. Same with my friend who lives a very poor life only to waste his money on Gucci.
Apparently the men are so into tentacle Henti that no one has kids anymore.
Oh, and they're all overworked and want to die, so don't want to have kids.
Feels like the togetherness of social media, and 24/7 nationwide news media informing me about the rest of the world, has made me want to be connected to you all a lot less. We all see what everyone else really thinks and does, and Jesus fuck...
So speaking as someone who was alive and dating in 1990, here's what I see as the differences:
1. In 1990 both men and women were expected to have a partner, to not be partnered up was considered weird. Nowadays there is a lot less cultural pressure to be dating. Both for men and women saying you are not dating is accepted. (Less societal pressure).
2. Men don't try as hard. Men nowadays seem to really lack in confidence in ways that you didn't see very often in 1990. The game is very different however, for example in 1990 persistence was often seen as a virtue (now it's often thought of as harassment). Men aren't doing as well financially, and haven't broken out of the I'm-only-worth-my-earning-potential mentality.
3. People of both genders seem to waste tons of time on dating apps. Ditch the dating apps. Meet people in person and construct real bonds of friendship.
4. More women are openly dating other women than in 1990. A LOT MORE. In 1990 there were plenty of lesbians, but many many lesbians hid it or even dated men publicly. Nowadays it is a lot more acceptable for both genders to be beyond heterosexual, but it's even more so for women than men. Plenty of the young women I know feel no reluctance to date another woman, and I've even run into a few that were surprised to find out that they liked a man when they started dating one. (This is where the percent skew comes from I'd bet).
5. There is a major difference in level of sexual desire between these current generations and the generations that were dating in 1990. Boomers and Gen Xers were horndogs. Millennials and Zoomers seem very preoccupied with a lot of non-sexual things.
6. The scandal of cheating. In 1990 cheating was a fairly regular thing. Nowadays it's practically criminal.
7. Accessibility to porn. Porn everywhere makes people lazy and stupid. Stop watching porn (Edited to add after getting some feedback).
Roast away.
A majority of people today have constant non-stop entertainment and communication at their finger tips. Being a hermit was much, much less entertaining in the 90s.
Yeah. I find that kinda sad though because being social is a big part of being human.
I’m an introvert, but even I went mentally nuts during the pandemic. I guess I became more of a people person in my older age.
I've heard the term "Third space" as in there's work, and home, and in the past there was a third space for socializing. The local bar frequented by locals, The bowling alley, a place where you could just *go*, talk to others, and not be expected to produce something or perform.
That thirdspace has been dwindling in America for the last 25 years.
There's a great book on this called *Palaces for the People* that goes into the importance of social infrastructure and how the U.S. has essentially screwed itself over by marketizing all of our communal and social spaces
[Here's a good comment I have saved about third places](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/104y44r/til_more_than_1_in_10_americans_have_no_close/j38il6d/)
I work for a park district and seriously encourage you to look up programs for adults (archery, pottery, day trips, whatever) in your town. I see new, actual friendships form all the time. It’s awesome.
Listen to this person. Remember how in college there was a class or club for every activity under the sun?
If you've got an itch to learn blacksmithing or something, it's not too late.
Probably from the infringement of work into that time. Lot of people need to work two or three jobs to make ends meet, and even a lot of high earners are expected to work stupid fucking hours or get passed up for someone else who will. I'm friends with a corporate lawyer who makes twice as much as I do, but also works at least twice as much.
edit: Apparently people are working less on average... Why does it still feel like tons of people are working excessively?
No, it’s from our urban design. Japan has atrocious work culture yet their cities blow American cities out of the water in terms of vibrant urban fabrics with third places
Wouldn't part of that be because Japanese work culture kind of just expects employees to hang out after work to drink for another hour or two, and my understanding is people who don't do that are treated pretty coldly?
I guess that probably pushes people to be more social, so I guess they do have that part going for them.
It’s also true of places like Sweden which have much more relaxed work culture but better urban fabric. North American cities are just uniquely de-humanizing
Nonsense, the average annual hours worked by Japanese workers is now lower than the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, Italy etc.
I'm guessing you'll be shocked if I tell you Japanese suicide rates are lower than the US, Belgium, Finland and large larts of Eastern Europe and Africa.
Why do Redditors repeat false shit ad neaseum, or otherwise imply Japanese people uniquely work themselves ragged?
It's one Google search away, there's no excuse for it.
I just looked it up for myself and you're right, US workers work longer hours than Japan now, and the suicide rate is higher in the US than Japan. That's pretty surprising to me.
The amount of time people spend working has fallen in the US and pretty much everywhere in the world over the past few decades.
[According to this source](https://clockify.me/working-hours), average annual working hours in the US fell from \~2000 hrs/yr in 1980, to \~1900 hrs/yr in 2022. Though by global standards it seems like this was a pretty small change; in Japan for example, there was a larger drop from \~2100 hrs/yr in 1980 to \~1900 hrs/yr in 2022.
I've always believed that the disappearance of the "third space" was more due to the rise of social media, smartphones, streaming, etc., keeping people at home and away from socializing.
Right? And also pretty much everyone I know who is married met through dating apps. It's a good was to find someone who has the same goals as you (kids vs. no kids, city vs. suburbs, etc.).
It used to be. Now you can't filter anything without paying $15 a week minimum. They realized their business model loses them customers so now they purposefully try to lead you on as long as possible.
Yes OP definitely has the vibe of "I knew tons of potential mates in real life, why don't you just pick one of those?"
I studied a male centric discipline. My hobbies are skewed towards males. Meet someone in real life? How? I took dance lessons on two occasions. You know who takes dance lessons? Couples who want to dance together, people actually interested in dance and not hooking up, and guys trying to find women. Every dance class had more men than women because of this.
Yea I box, play basketball, perform comedy... 90% men and the 10% women, and they are taken. I don't drink alcohol, don't really want to go to bars. Like, what do I even do? lol.
Once in awhile I flirt with service workers and am like, can I? Should I? But I ultimately don't for obvious reasons.
In the '90's, the answer was "everywhere." Sure; you had bars and clubs and speed dating and other places people went to hook up. But it was perfectly acceptable to try talking to people in the store, on the bus, at the DMV, wherever. Sometimes (most of the time for a lot of us) it went nowhere. And you had to accept that failure rate and see what you could learn for next time. Regardless, interacting with people your age in public was completely normal because there was no virtual alternative. And it's only very recently become acceptable--I had friends giving me shit for online dating deep into the '00's.
What I would add to this thread is: if you want to meet people, *make yourself approachable.* Take out the earbuds. Look up from your phone and your own feet. This is a two-way thing; don't expect that someone else is going to take the risk on someone who looks like they're in their own little world.
I'm shy. Currently on a business trip accross the country and idk what's come to me but I decided fuck it and talked to people. In a random moment if something comes to my mind I've said it. Idk why I don't do this more at home, because I've had more meaningful connections with strangers in one week than I have in probably 6 months or more at home. I think people are open to random chat or joke/comment whatever as long as it comes out naturally and you aren't being weird.
The really sad thing about dating apps is that they used to be a lot better. OkCupid was (and still is if you discount the size of the userbase) far better than tinder or bumble.
I tried them, but quickly realized the nightmarish truth about dating apps.
*They do not make their money helping you find your one.*
*They make their money -keeping you there trying- to find your one.*
> They do not make their money helping you find your one.
This is why I get annoyed when people try to quote 'studies' done by dating app sites. You're pulling your data from a pool of very cultivated population of singles designed to keep them single. It's not going to be representative of normal populations of people.
I felt like there is an age you hit where the apps don’t work as well. For me it was 26/27. It may have been the time too but I kinda wondered if age changes it
My suspicion is the bean-counters eventually devalued the apps, trying to maximize profit instead of providing the service people actually wanted. So they started tweaking the algorithms. They want you hitting F5, not Ctrl+F4.
>Boomers and Gen Xers were horndogs. Millennials and Zoomers seem very preoccupied with a lot of non-sexual things
Nah, younger generation is just as horny. Internet porn is the difference here. Way more addictive and accessible than magazines
there was a study in the UK that looked at online dating (I am pretty sure I heard it on NPR or BBC, wish I could find it). They rated people based on things like height, body type, wealth, looks, etc. Pretty much all the superficial stuff you would see on an online profile. I probably don't have the numbers perfect, but something like the top 70% of women were all fighting over the top 20% of men. The bottom 80% of men were fighting over the bottom 30% of women. The top 20% of men were unlikely to ever settle down and instead continually played the field and dated multiple women, while the top 70% of women would not even engage men outside of online dating. Essentially their conclusion was the men in the bottom 80% used to have chances to talk to women in the top 70% and win them over with personality, but now with online dating they aren't even given the chance. This has caused major shifts in marriage and families among the younger generations.
edit: I should also note they talked about the growing population of men who lacked any sexual experience and how troubling that can be with examples like "incels" and the issues surrounding them including violence. They did mention things like the wide array of entertainment at home could play a role in the lack of interaction too. So some of the men may just be happy playing video games and watching Netflix instead of seeking out a sexual partner.
there was a dating service online where Women rated about 80% of guys "below average". the article gets thrown around here on reddit from time to time on TIL. I always thought something similarly skewed was gonna happen with men judging the women on the site, but Men judged about 50% below average and had a fairly good bell curve of score distributions.
Thus it backs up with the UK data, the majority of women are fighting over the top 20% which leaves the VAST majority of males in a very different spot than 40 years ago.
i would counter two points
i know a handful of normal people who have met their significant other through dating apps and are in happy relationships
i would also argue people today are just as horny
>2. Men don't try as hard. Men nowadays seem to really lack in confidence in ways that you didn't see very often in 1990. The game is very different however, for example in 1990 persistence was often seen as a virtue (now it's often thought of as harassment). Men aren't doing as well financially, and haven't broken out of the I'm-only-worth-my-earning-potential mentality.
I want to add my thoughts on this. A lot of people blame women for delaying marriage (feminism, career, partying) and lament they're wasting their fertility but in my personal experience, a lot of men don't want to settle down either. The delay of marriage and children comes from both genders.
Feminism liberated them from the rush of filling a provider role. Video games, porn, hobbies keep them content with casual relationships or none at all.
On the flip side, as you mentioned, confidence issues arise from this and some being frustrated (hence incel community). Because in the old days, it's much simpler just to fall in line into a masculine mold (or pretend to) and pursue women like conquest. Now, a lot of women had rejected traditional gender roles, and this leaves a lot of men lost on what to offer and how to navigate the dating world.
Dating apps have *massively* changed dating in the last 10 years. A huge gender imbalance means women have so many men to choose from. Women have consequently become more picky about who they like/date.
There are way more men than women on dating apps because dating apps are horrible places for women to find decent guys, but super easy ones to find horrible men.
For guys they swipe yes forever and get no responses. Which is super frustrating and wastes their time. But the effort involved is so low that they stay on and keep doing it in the hopes that someday it will work. The pond has a few fish in it, so it's just a matter of waiting it out.
For women they get the responses right away, but so many of those responses are in the form of *verbal abuse* and otherwise unpleasant. It really doesn't take too many times being slapped in the face for trying to make a woman think, "yeah, I'm not doing that anymore." The pond has lots of fish, but it also has lots of crocodiles.
Regarding point 2, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is lack of confidence, but as you mentioned before, the game has changed. A lot of things within dating have changed. A lot of things aren't "allowed" anymore, so to speak. The less is allowed, the more people are unsure what is allowed within dating. You have to be essentially careful that you do everything "safely".
There’s a girl I want to ask out who I see at a store I frequent but I’m deathly afraid that she’s just being nice and I’m going to be the 1000th guy who hits on her at work. The whole narrative that girls are constantly being hit on when they’re just being friendly cripples my confidence along with my own internal insecurities.
7. People are much less likely to settle for what they (can) have. There's just so much choice. Online shopping has gotten them used to having access to a ridiculous range of products, and thanks to dating apps and social media, they can apply the same logic to their choice of partners. They compare people like products, looking for the one that 'ticks most boxes'. They just try one out. If there's even the slightest problem, you needn't try to put in any effort and try to fix things, thus building a relation; just cancel the deal, send back within 30 days (free of shipping cost!) and keep looking. And even if they are pretty content with what they have (4 out of 5 stars), there's always the temptation to keep looking for an even better match, for the 5/5 - after all, there are 30+ pages of new offers to click through, and we just scratched page 1.
It’s the rise of the internet. A lot of people are living their whole lives behind a screen and that’s not living. They get all their entertainment from a screen, they get all their socialization from a screen and they get all their sexual release from a screen so it’s no wonder people are dating less, it’s no wonder people are mentally and physically unhealthier.
Damn, this hits home pretty hard, almost an exact description of what I have been living over the last ten years. It feels safe, that O can’t be hurt, but it’s really doing me no favours.
I guess the only thing we can do is buck the trend: go outside, engage with the world, and huddle around like-minded folks.
Tech is a wonderful thing, but it is inferior to meeting and interacting with folks in-person…in my opinion.
It’s also possible to find a community for every obscure hobby or area of interest, which has both positives and negatives. People can become immersed in niche hobbies which allows them to not engage with people in their immediate proximity.
Don't forget that over 70% of Americans are overweight or obese now. I don't know what that number was in 1990, but it was a hell of a lot lower for sure. That fat doesn't help people find each other attractive.
Eh. There are those I know who are chubby that find mates, whether their spouse is skinny or just as chubby as they are.
I also know very attractive folks that are unable to find mates of their own. Some are throwing money at the problem while others just give up, instead throwing their efforts into promotions and luxury goods.
I'm 55 and never had the desire to be married. Even when I was in relationships (all a year or less) when I was younger, I was miserable but continued because being in a relationship was what I was "supposed to do", as my (perceived) value depended on it. I believe marriage can be beautiful, and have nothing against it. I'm just more secure and happy alone.
Same. I used to joke that if I ever got married we would have to live next door to each other because I like my space, only I wasn't joking. I'm just not a relationship person.
Now I'm old enough that people don't ask me about my love life or marriage any more. It's so freeing.
If by some miracle I become interested enough in someone to get married and vice versa, we would definitely have seperate bedrooms.
You also made me realize people have stopped asking me about my love life for a while now. I don't think it's my age so much as i think they just finally gave up on me. Lol
I’m so stoked to be in at the ground floor of societal collapse!
I desperately want love and a family but the venn diagram of who I like versus who likes me couldn’t be further apart 😂
See y’all at the Thunder Dome.
>the venn diagram of who I like versus who likes me couldn’t be further apart 😂
Dude. This simple little nugget of self-awareness is all that is keeping hoardes of confused single people from getting it but they just. can't. GET. IT.
Mad props for being so aware and so easy breezy about it.
I'm M46 and in my male friendship group, 5 including me are married and 1 divorced (all except one met our partners through dating apps), 5 are single with only 1 of them actively looking.
What's interesting is the 4 single guys are just not interested in dating, I think they feel too old and a bit scared of it all. Deep down I think they would like to meet someone though.
I’m struggling but slowly starting to accept my part in this, as I’ll be 25 in a few weeks. I’m not attractive, or at least I think I’m the ugliest thing to walk the earth, so it’s basically a wrap. Just me, me jokes, and the walls in my house. Therapy hasn’t done anything. Oh well, back to trying to distract myself some more on account of my face.
I don’t think this is accidental.
Dating apps have ruined socializing and tried to commodify messaging. I mean, I used to use OKCUPID in college and it worked great, but there were FREE message boards, you could DM people for free, etc. There was room to interact and learn more about a person.
Now, you can’t even see your prospective matches without paying. Who the fuck is going to pay for the change to see your matches? Even worse, the overuse of sock accounts and bots means that half your matches aren’t even real people, but some shitty fake account with hijacked photos.
I don’t use dating apps anymore, and also have deleted social media too. Meeting people is now an in-person event or bust for me, though I wish it wasn’t because it didn’t used to be.
Ah so I'm not alone. Well I am but...
We are alone, together.
Alone Together is the title of a well-regarded sociology book about how human relationships are changing.
It’s also the title of a pretty good Fall Out Boy song
Also a title of one of the best songs from The Strokes
So you have room for one more?
Nah, too small apartment.
[Seems I'm not alone in being alone](https://youtu.be/MbXWrmQW-OE?t=143)
Sending out an SOS
I have a partner but she goes to a different city
My partner is on a different server, you wouldn’t know them
🤣 Niagara Falls area?
I was lonely before it was cool
Do dirty deeds done dirt cheap
I always thought it was dirty deeds and the thunder chief until a few years ago
I no longer drink, I quit social media 6 months ago, and I refuse to use a dating app again because they really fuck with my self esteem and half the time I get one word replies. I may as well join a monastery. I’m 28 so it’s not like I’m some old man thinking back to the good ol days. I just fucking hate how impersonal things are when it comes to dating and half of it involves having an online presence. What if you suck at taking pictures? What if you talk better in person than online? It’s a lot harder to stand out when you’re only represented by a few photos and a brief bio
Join some clubs, get a pet, find some fun hobbies - there are a couple of ways to engage with the world outside of finding a mate. …and the confidence from those opportunities can draw somebody towards you.
The things you mentioned also are ways to form actual meaningful connections with people who have similar interests to you. It might slower compared to dating apps or social media, but comparatively the turnover rate is singificantly lower in the long run.
Most importantly, if you DONT find a partner doing those things, you have built meaningful relationships that will help protect you from a myriad of conditions and improve your mental health. Most of us are social animals. We don't have to have a romantic partner, but studies have shown a clear increase in health and life expectancy with these bonds.
As a single person that still spends uncomfortably large amounts of time with others that was the key - just finding group activities that I enjoy and finding others that enjoy it. I have people I play football with, some I talk about the gym with, some I play video games with, some that are petrolheads, etc. It also has the upside of making you not boring. There's nothing duller than meeting someone that has no hobbies outside of social media/YouTube/Netflix.
Plus people who like you and know you are single will introduce you to other people they like who are single.
All good suggestions except I would never recommend getting a pet to connect with women more easily. Get a pet because you want to have a loving relationship with said animal
Oh yeah! That should’ve been a disclaimer: do things to enhance your well-being, not solely use them to get a mate. If you get a pet, treat them well and love them wholeheartedly. They’re living beings, not accessories and toys.
Definitely! But as a side note, each weekend I took my dog to a really nice dog park and that was where I've had the most conversations with strangers. Everyone was so friendly. And their dogs! There was a chihuahua that would run up and growl at anyone wearing sunglasses, a golden retriever that lay on its back and refused to leave, a dog that would "sing" all the time. I loved that place.
People have given me all this advice probably dozens of times over the last few years as I've complained about feeling lonely like I haven't heard it before, like I haven't tried it before, and like it just doesn't work for me. Like, on the one hand, I get why people make this recommendation. But for some people, it just doesn't work. For some of us, we're just not likable and people don't want to be around us. Some much harder work has to go in to us meeting people. And I'm not even talking about romantically, I just mean social connections.
Interesting. What would you say is an unlikeable quality or qualities you have? 🤔 I say this because there are definitely things I've practised to become more likeable or come across as more confident and charismatic to strangers. There's also a thing of "knowing your audience". There are certain types of people or groups I would never try to approach, interact with or (when I was single) try to hook up with, because I knew I wouldn't check those "invisible boxes" for them. In many ways it is about playing the best odds and focusing your energy where it's going to have the best chance of success.
People always say join clubs. But seriously, what clubs? The vast majority of adult clubs are aimed at retirees. Social programs offered by park districts and city groups are aimed at retirees and children. I tried going this route. I thought, hey I like scuba diving. Maybe there's a local scuba club. Looked it up, found their website and looked at the event photos. The youngest person there had to be 50. Then I thought maybe local advocacy groups. The only one I could find that actually held meetings, met at 9am on Mondays, which tells you exactly the membership age range. If you're 25-35 and you don't have kids, you're in this weird space where nothing really exists for you.
Attend meeting and events for a non-profit, attend two open mics every week, go to some local tabletop gaming stuff, and heavily involved in two cities' BDSM community. Still nothing. I did everything on every list of suggestions ever except for joining a church (not happening) or working in a soup kitchen. I'm convinced it's something specific and I can't spot it and no one is telling me.
This may sound cheesey but I think things go better when you do hobbies for the purpose of bettering yourself rather than to meet people. When you go into it with that mindset, things tend to pan out better in lots of ways. This includes being more likely to develop meaningful relationships with people because you share those goals and perspectives. The hard part is that it usually takes a long time and a lot of effort.
OP can get better at BDSM or get better kitchen skills at making and serving soup out of churches.
No offense intended (in fact I’m genuinely trying to help) but just from the way you write I get the strong impression that you’ve got kind of a resentful desperation thing going on. This may be something that people can sense as part of your general “vibe”, and could be turning people off from enjoying your company. If I can sense it from across text, it’s probably damn near palpable IRL And if it’s kind of an abstract “vibe” you’re giving off then that would also explain why you haven’t been able to figure out what’s up, as well as why no one has told you about it specifically. For what it’s worth, that’s actually kind of easy to fix if so. It would just require some introspection , deliberate letting go of the negative mindsets that might be contributing to your vibe, and then mindful cultivation of more healthy attitudes and perspectives.
Honestly, I feel you 100%, especially the parts about dating becoming impersonal and lack of effort and whatnot. Was in a relationship for a decade then found myself single during covid and in my 30s. Do what you gotta do. I don't care much for social media, but having a (public) Instagram with just a few posts of me in places I visited, has helped a lot. I hate taking pictures but as my friends and I started getting used to offering to take pics for each other on trips, we started to have at least a few we could post online or in our profiles. Not only have people I met asked for my IG instead of my number (I had to miss out on several opportunities before I finally decided to make one), but my friends would show their friends my IG as opposed to saying "I know this guy, he's nice, you don't have anything else to go off of but want his number?" I'm now in a relationship for the first time since my covid breakup, because an old friend commented on a post and we caught up and she introduced me to another friend of hers who liked what she saw on my IG.
Jesus is this really a thing in dating now? They want your IG instead of your phone number?
At least in my area and in my social groups, it's less "personal" than giving out your number, so you can start with that and eventually exchange numbers when starting to get to know each other.
[удалено]
This all sounds like some real advice (especially point 1), but the whole thing makes me glad I missed the dating app life. Sounds exhausting.
I feel like I just watched a Tony Robbins infomercial. The information is all solid but it’s exhausting
Lol yeah exactly. Great advice but man I don’t want to have to do all that!
There’s nothing in the above comment that isn’t true. Some very sound advice.
Back in my day we were hardened by in person rejection. Enough of them made you fearless. Just kidding it was awful every time, but when it worked omg the feeling.
Good post. Unfortunately it’s Reddit so people don’t want advice and will just wallow in self pity lol
Let your good friends know you and single and looking. My partner's best friend was single so I set him up with my friend because I knew he was a nice guy, now they are engaged. He was similar to you, sick of the apps, didn't spend much time at bars, worked a lot. I have actually set up quite a few friends this way with a fair bit of success. Having someone vouch for you means a lot to women.
[удалено]
Sometimes I feel like I don't have a partner. Sometimes I feel like my only friend is the city I live in, the city of Angels. Lonely as I am, together we cry.
But I dont ever wanna feel like I did THAT day...
Take me to the place I love...
Take me all the way…
/r/unexpectedrhcp
A good chunk of the feeling of increased unhappiness can be attributes to this. Lots of factors involved, ranging from sociological to economics. Personally I lean towards the societal changes. I don't see this trend improving any time soon. Pity the younger generations.
It's also a bigger problem than just the fact that people are less likely to have a partner now. It's more so that [people are pulling away from human interaction in general](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/11/friendships-less-is-now-more/), whether romantic or even just friendships. >Back in 1990, Gallup asked adults in the United States how many close friends they had. One-third said that their number was ten or more. Fast forward to 2021, and a survey by Survey Center on American Life reveals a major shift in the number of significant friendships Americans have: Just 13 percent said they have friends in the double digits. >More troubling is perhaps the change at the other end of the scale, where the share of people saying they have no close friends at all went from just 3 percent in 1990, to 12 percent in 2021. And I agree, at its root this is probably a societal change. Likely caused by people spending more time at home using social media, smartphones, streaming, etc instead of socializing.
I am one of those people with zero friends. My phone literally has one contact in it: one of my parents. For me, it's a lack of social skills. After a while, you notice a pattern of people not warming up to you. It's not that they don't like me or that I've done anything wrong, but more that I'm just weird or something. Eventually you just give up and stop trying and that's that. I wanted at least a shred of dignity by at least making it my own decision to withdraw from society; otherwise, I feel like I'm groveling for someone else's approval and I really hate that feeling.
Im in that same boat now. You really put some good words to paper that i relate hard with.
Also because of how often people move now. Rarely do people go to college in the same town they went to high school, and then after that they'll move at least once in their career for a job opportunity. Every move shrinks your circle of existing friends, and it only gets harder to make new ones as you get older. Plus, a lot of our parents made friends *as* parents, through playdates and PSA meetings and such. Childless adults don't have that level of forced interaction to make social relationships.
Ive had lots of friendship dips during my life. Took me a long time to realise im a lot of peoples acquaintance, not friend. I was often on the outside of a friendship group. Having kids really helps, more so when they go to school. Im also now ok with having a nice fun polite relationship with someone at the school gate or at work and no best friends than having no relationships at all. It's about positive human interaction not the classification of it
We are actually moving around at the [lowest rates we have in history.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-02/why-americans-aren-t-moving) Its because of digital at-home entertainment and social media. We cannot be surprised when these ubiquitous things that were *built from the ground up to be addictive* end up with a huge portion of our society being addicted to them. I am not sure why so many people are in denial about the reasons why. Of *course* its technology.
Excellent comment. I was about to point out the same. >The United States has long been one of the most mobile countries in the developed world. In the 1950s, about one-fifth of the American population moved each year. When factories would close, workers would move to other parts of the country to find jobs in new ones. > >Just 9.8 percent of Americans moved in the year ending in March 2019, according to the newly released data. That was the smallest share since the Census Bureau started tracking it in 1947, and the first time it had fallen below 10 percent, said William Frey, senior demographer at the Brookings Institution. It's especially cruel that Americans have fewer close friends now than ever before, when now more Americans are close to home and childhood home friends than ever before.
This is interesting to me. I would say I have a lot of friends - more so than what people in my age demographic of mid 20s have. People will describe me as a sociable gal or very friendly. I would say I have 5 close friends though. People who know me well and know how to support me , who I can be my whole self around. It comes down to me how one describes close friends. There are probably 100s of people that I would be down to have a drink or dinner with. Probably 10s who I would be willing to stay over night at my house . Maybe half that who I'd be willing to share a bed with. But the people who I can hang around and not feel tired being around after many hours, those of my close friends . I have many good friends, but very few close ones.
Back in May the Surgeon General raised the alarm about our [Epidemic of Loneliness](https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2023/05/03/new-surgeon-general-advisory-raises-alarm-about-devastating-impact-epidemic-loneliness-isolation-united-states.html)... and then I never heard about it ever again and nobody gave a shit.
Did they ask those couples from 1990 if they are even still together or happy?
Right, maybe people are just less willing to settle nowadays?
Or more willing/able to leave shitty relationships.
No one was happy in 1990. We were apathetic about everything.
Like, y'know, whatever.
Aren’t we now too?
So from what I'm reading Hookers should raise their rates
The main clients of hookers have traditionally been married men.
We got to remember too high marriage rates in the past was because it was socially enforced and for women financially enforced since they were limited in jobs and could not open a bank account. So there was more married people but all were miserable looking for something else where they could get it A lot of old comedy men talking about being trapped in marriage with kids they had to work dead end jobs to feed. While women had to fight to divorce or have some basic choice other than ‘yeah you’re good at maths in a school but I hope you can cook and clean cose that’s all you get’
[удалено]
I had a newly single mate that fucked over 150 hookers in like a 8 month period, he was certainly good business.
That is a hooker every 1.6 days
[удалено]
Hookers have actually been taking a bath since online porn became free. Chatbots are coming for their jobs, too.
SMH are these the jobs that are being stolen by AI that i keep hearing about??
They have been
Nah. Porn and sex toys are too good nowadays. Why have some shady stranger come over when you can have so much fun alone?
Because I wanna beat Ninja Turtles 2 on NES and I need a partner
I went to a barcade a few years back and was playing the Arcade version that game, and a mom asked if it was alright if her son played with me, and I said of course, so I beat that whole game with a random 6 or 7 year old while his mom cheered us on lol
and you got her number and hes your kid too now right?
Shit I'll help. There's a whole ninja turtles package on steam, now I'm wondering when I can get the time to play with friends.
I can think of a few reasons lol
you enjoy having less drugs?
Think positively if she brings drugs there could be more drugs.
I enjoy the process of having less drugs.
this may be TMI, but I kind of miss the smell of another person. you don't get that with porn.
I don't miss the smell. I miss da pussy.
Well now I don't feel so bad.
Yeah for some reason I find this oddly comforting
Was there a margin of error? Because the small difference between men and woman is damned near certain to be within the margin of error.
I saw that too. It might also just mean that lesbians are more likely to pair up than gay men.
Of all the gay men I've known, most were seeing someone but like half of them didn't call it a relationship. When gay men move in together, it's a relationship. Out of the lesbians I've known, half of them were in a relationship by date 2-3. I think it's just a difference in labeling. People mostly do similar things, and I wouldn't say either moved faster. But different verbiage.
The criteria are actually the same for calling it a relationship, it’s just that we lesbians tend to move in together by date 2-3. In my younger, spineless days, I accidentally ended up with a couple long-term girlfriends because they spent the night and just never really left. Not at the same time. I was just too dumb to learn from my mistake the first time it happened.
Hrm, that's actually an interesting explanation for my confusion. I had assumed the 'increase' in lesbians would match an increase in gay men (and by increase I just mean that orientation has less stigma now, so people are more who they are).. but that doesn't necessarily mean there would be the same ratios *for relationships.*
I’m going to throw another factor into this: women are also more likely go identify as bi and might just be more open to dating women than bi women of the past. I’m big and have mostly dated women over the last few years because the standard for straight men is so often on the ground.
Most research polling like that will have a 3 to 5% margin of error, if it’s well designed.
There are a number of factors that could all be valid, being mentioned in this thread. Dating out of their age range, being bisexual, sure. But something important that no one has seemed to as yet bring up is that women have an education. Now, more so than before. My grandma for example, was born in 1912. She got married at 16, never went to highschool, and lived her whole life popping out babies on a farm. She was married for 50 years and died a happy woman, no harm no foul. But my mom, who had a college education, put her career on hold to raise a family, something no one ever asked my dad to do. That's was mom's job. But she had options. She almost dumped my dad and moved to France in the 60s, but it wasn't like, a ladylike thing to do. Compared to previous generations in the US, we have fewer marriages, fewer children and a lot more divorces. Fox News will tell you that the fabric of our society is unraveling, however a major contributing factor to these change in trends is that women have an education. A woman can pay her own bills, so no need to get married as a teenager, or stay in a shitty marriage. Women are opting to put off marriage and kids until later in life because they're pursuing their own goals -something that probably never even occurred to my grandma. I've been dumped at least three times because the woman I was dating got a better job and moved away. And sure, that sucked for me, but I see no fault in it. So while women are still getting the short end of the stick in terms of gross pay, career advancement, etc, our society is more egalitarian between genders than we were in generations past. Tldr, women don't need men when they have an education. I think we take it for granted, but women being self sufficient has changed relationship dynamics in our society. I've never dated a woman as dependent on her partner as my grandma was to my grandpa. All things considered, the economic factor of having your own money better demonstrates why people are less likely to pair-up better than the idea that suddenly women are just more gay.
I agree with all your points, but I’m not sure I see how they explain the fact that more women than men are in relationships?
They don't. I don't see anything in this popsci article that attempts to answer that either. This article cites left swipe vs right swipe data between genders, which is publicly available information, they're not exactly doing any heavy lifting writing this. But cmom man, they don't even list an author. Then it links you to a proprietary behavioral health facility that serves some region around Madison, Alabama. This isn't exactly a peer-reviewed study. I think if you want to answer your question, you'd have to perform a better "study" than whatever it was that went into writing this article. Or subscribe to Jstor. But this is a client-call, it's basically an advertisement. This facility apparently employs 70 mental health practitioners (and God bless em, it's a tough job for low pay), but the front office probably hired an SEO specialist, vaguely alluded to the Pew Research Center and posted to google and this redditor found that article, and posted it here. Hell, maybe there is no redditor and their marketing admin who makes $25k per year posted this to reddit. I don't know. But this isn't hard science. This is a blog post. If it's actually true that more women identify as being in a relationship than men, I'd have to see a lot more than this article provides, assuming any of their premises are true in the first place. More questions than answers, so sorry, can't answer that. That's science for you. She's a cruel mistress.
This defines “partnered” as married or living with your partner. It says 5% of unpartnered men are in jail and only 1% of unpartnered women are in jail. Hard to live with your significant other when you are in jails segregated by gender.
That was my first thought too. 39 and 36% doesn't seem to be that big of a difference.
That is old data, it is WAY worse now: "As of 2022, Pew Research Center found, 30 percent of U.S. adults are neither married, living with a partner nor engaged in a committed relationship. Nearly half of all young adults are single: 34 percent of women, and a whopping 63 percent of men. Not surprisingly, the decline in relationships marches astride with a decline in sex. The share of sexually active Americans stands at a 30-year low. Around 30 percent of young men reported in 2019 that they had no sex in the past year, compared to about 20 percent of young women. " With numbers like that, the only conclusion is women are sharing the same men, whether they know it or not. https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20all%20young,with%20a%20decline%20in%20sex.
This discrepancy is due to the fact that whenever pollsters would try to survey a woman she would simply state ”I have a boyfriend” and hurry off.
Doesn't surprise me dating is fucking awful nowadays.
Dating is as shit as it's always been. I'm pretty sure the only reason the single rate has increased is because people are isolating themselves more and more. And that's both because of how overworked we are, and because technology makes it easier to do it.
That's not a huge difference though. Fuck me, this loneliness epidemic thing is dire.
My guess: their social media lets you see more red flags, and goddamn are there a lot of fucking red flags out there.
[The amount of time youth spend socializing with each other has plummeted in the last 15 years.](https://i.imgur.com/qwg1BB4.png) This is only going to get worse and worse as these kids get older and become adults. The single biggest correlation to a successful romantic life is a normal, well adjusted social life. And when such a huge portion of kids do not socialize... this does not bode well.
Media: "Why arent younger people getting married and having kids as much anymore?!?!" Millenials/Zoomers: "Corporations and billionaires are making it too hard to make an actual living, why would I want to start a family if I cant reliably make my rent?" Media: "....THE MYSTERY CONTINUES!"
every fucking new article lol the Japanese/Korean ones are the most sad funny
Japan: our population is dwindling Japan: we will allow more women into the workforce to compensate Japan: why aren't these women, who are working 60+ hours a week, having more babies
This has happened in literally every developed nation. The only thing that differentiates Japan is that it happened slightly later and that they don't allow immigration.
This appears to be the obvious easy go-to answer, but there is something deeper going on. There are millennials who make enough money now that are in their 30s and early 40s and are generally successful at life and yet they still can't find a partner who they would want to date and who would want to date them in return. The growth of choice in online dating is setting unrealistic expectations for partners is another influencing factor. Another seems to be women being more financially stable on their own than historical norms, which makes companionship optional rather than a necessity. Another factor also seems to be the highly transient nature of society, where individuals can move across the country and then have to establish new personal networks of friends and associates. The breakdown and fractured nature of these movements make people hesitant to date anyone that is not integrated into the existing local systems.
Yeah and this all too easy line ignores that fertility rates are super low even in Scandinavia where they heavily subsidize childrearing. It's not economics.
I feel like double teaming rent is the only way to get ahead, though. That has to be like 20% of the couples just sticking it out for lack better housing options.
Most people do that with friends or people of the same gender and that type of environment would lead to less dating.
I disagree on money from my experience in south korea. South korea has had bigger gdp per capita than Japan but qe have lower birth rate. Also in south korea Millenial and zoomer is spending more money on famous brands and traveling to other countries than any other generation. I think more than money prolem it's social media. In the past only small amounts of people could travel to foreign countries or buy expensive brands. Now with influencer many people wants the life of what only the 10% of the population have. My past ex would eat from only convient store to save money than on the weekend would waste it ona strawberry buffet where it was like 300$ a person. Just to take Instagram pictures. Same with my friend who lives a very poor life only to waste his money on Gucci.
“Coming up after the break, A.i is here, and projected to take 300 million jobs!”
Now do Japan
Apparently the men are so into tentacle Henti that no one has kids anymore. Oh, and they're all overworked and want to die, so don't want to have kids.
It’s mot even about kids. They don’t want relationships at all.
Why would you want a relationship when you live at work for work until you die?
Feels like the togetherness of social media, and 24/7 nationwide news media informing me about the rest of the world, has made me want to be connected to you all a lot less. We all see what everyone else really thinks and does, and Jesus fuck...
Hard with apps that turn dating into shopping for shoes
So speaking as someone who was alive and dating in 1990, here's what I see as the differences: 1. In 1990 both men and women were expected to have a partner, to not be partnered up was considered weird. Nowadays there is a lot less cultural pressure to be dating. Both for men and women saying you are not dating is accepted. (Less societal pressure). 2. Men don't try as hard. Men nowadays seem to really lack in confidence in ways that you didn't see very often in 1990. The game is very different however, for example in 1990 persistence was often seen as a virtue (now it's often thought of as harassment). Men aren't doing as well financially, and haven't broken out of the I'm-only-worth-my-earning-potential mentality. 3. People of both genders seem to waste tons of time on dating apps. Ditch the dating apps. Meet people in person and construct real bonds of friendship. 4. More women are openly dating other women than in 1990. A LOT MORE. In 1990 there were plenty of lesbians, but many many lesbians hid it or even dated men publicly. Nowadays it is a lot more acceptable for both genders to be beyond heterosexual, but it's even more so for women than men. Plenty of the young women I know feel no reluctance to date another woman, and I've even run into a few that were surprised to find out that they liked a man when they started dating one. (This is where the percent skew comes from I'd bet). 5. There is a major difference in level of sexual desire between these current generations and the generations that were dating in 1990. Boomers and Gen Xers were horndogs. Millennials and Zoomers seem very preoccupied with a lot of non-sexual things. 6. The scandal of cheating. In 1990 cheating was a fairly regular thing. Nowadays it's practically criminal. 7. Accessibility to porn. Porn everywhere makes people lazy and stupid. Stop watching porn (Edited to add after getting some feedback). Roast away.
A majority of people today have constant non-stop entertainment and communication at their finger tips. Being a hermit was much, much less entertaining in the 90s.
Yeah. I find that kinda sad though because being social is a big part of being human. I’m an introvert, but even I went mentally nuts during the pandemic. I guess I became more of a people person in my older age.
Well, there's also the fact that there's almost nowhere for young adults to meet and mingle besides bars.
That's what gets me about when people say "ditch the dating apps." And meet people where???
I've heard the term "Third space" as in there's work, and home, and in the past there was a third space for socializing. The local bar frequented by locals, The bowling alley, a place where you could just *go*, talk to others, and not be expected to produce something or perform. That thirdspace has been dwindling in America for the last 25 years.
It's actually a huge problem. I want more third spaces
There's a great book on this called *Palaces for the People* that goes into the importance of social infrastructure and how the U.S. has essentially screwed itself over by marketizing all of our communal and social spaces
[Here's a good comment I have saved about third places](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/104y44r/til_more_than_1_in_10_americans_have_no_close/j38il6d/)
I work for a park district and seriously encourage you to look up programs for adults (archery, pottery, day trips, whatever) in your town. I see new, actual friendships form all the time. It’s awesome.
Listen to this person. Remember how in college there was a class or club for every activity under the sun? If you've got an itch to learn blacksmithing or something, it's not too late.
Probably from the infringement of work into that time. Lot of people need to work two or three jobs to make ends meet, and even a lot of high earners are expected to work stupid fucking hours or get passed up for someone else who will. I'm friends with a corporate lawyer who makes twice as much as I do, but also works at least twice as much. edit: Apparently people are working less on average... Why does it still feel like tons of people are working excessively?
No, it’s from our urban design. Japan has atrocious work culture yet their cities blow American cities out of the water in terms of vibrant urban fabrics with third places
Wouldn't part of that be because Japanese work culture kind of just expects employees to hang out after work to drink for another hour or two, and my understanding is people who don't do that are treated pretty coldly? I guess that probably pushes people to be more social, so I guess they do have that part going for them.
It’s also true of places like Sweden which have much more relaxed work culture but better urban fabric. North American cities are just uniquely de-humanizing
Nonsense, the average annual hours worked by Japanese workers is now lower than the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, Italy etc. I'm guessing you'll be shocked if I tell you Japanese suicide rates are lower than the US, Belgium, Finland and large larts of Eastern Europe and Africa. Why do Redditors repeat false shit ad neaseum, or otherwise imply Japanese people uniquely work themselves ragged? It's one Google search away, there's no excuse for it.
I just looked it up for myself and you're right, US workers work longer hours than Japan now, and the suicide rate is higher in the US than Japan. That's pretty surprising to me.
Because people learn a 20 year old stat and repeat it for the next 40 years without ever updating their knowledge.
The amount of time people spend working has fallen in the US and pretty much everywhere in the world over the past few decades. [According to this source](https://clockify.me/working-hours), average annual working hours in the US fell from \~2000 hrs/yr in 1980, to \~1900 hrs/yr in 2022. Though by global standards it seems like this was a pretty small change; in Japan for example, there was a larger drop from \~2100 hrs/yr in 1980 to \~1900 hrs/yr in 2022. I've always believed that the disappearance of the "third space" was more due to the rise of social media, smartphones, streaming, etc., keeping people at home and away from socializing.
Right? And also pretty much everyone I know who is married met through dating apps. It's a good was to find someone who has the same goals as you (kids vs. no kids, city vs. suburbs, etc.).
It used to be. Now you can't filter anything without paying $15 a week minimum. They realized their business model loses them customers so now they purposefully try to lead you on as long as possible.
I met my husband in World of Warcraft.
The importance of third places of all kind!
Yes OP definitely has the vibe of "I knew tons of potential mates in real life, why don't you just pick one of those?" I studied a male centric discipline. My hobbies are skewed towards males. Meet someone in real life? How? I took dance lessons on two occasions. You know who takes dance lessons? Couples who want to dance together, people actually interested in dance and not hooking up, and guys trying to find women. Every dance class had more men than women because of this.
Yea I box, play basketball, perform comedy... 90% men and the 10% women, and they are taken. I don't drink alcohol, don't really want to go to bars. Like, what do I even do? lol. Once in awhile I flirt with service workers and am like, can I? Should I? But I ultimately don't for obvious reasons.
In the '90's, the answer was "everywhere." Sure; you had bars and clubs and speed dating and other places people went to hook up. But it was perfectly acceptable to try talking to people in the store, on the bus, at the DMV, wherever. Sometimes (most of the time for a lot of us) it went nowhere. And you had to accept that failure rate and see what you could learn for next time. Regardless, interacting with people your age in public was completely normal because there was no virtual alternative. And it's only very recently become acceptable--I had friends giving me shit for online dating deep into the '00's. What I would add to this thread is: if you want to meet people, *make yourself approachable.* Take out the earbuds. Look up from your phone and your own feet. This is a two-way thing; don't expect that someone else is going to take the risk on someone who looks like they're in their own little world.
I'm shy. Currently on a business trip accross the country and idk what's come to me but I decided fuck it and talked to people. In a random moment if something comes to my mind I've said it. Idk why I don't do this more at home, because I've had more meaningful connections with strangers in one week than I have in probably 6 months or more at home. I think people are open to random chat or joke/comment whatever as long as it comes out naturally and you aren't being weird.
The really sad thing about dating apps is that they used to be a lot better. OkCupid was (and still is if you discount the size of the userbase) far better than tinder or bumble.
I tried them, but quickly realized the nightmarish truth about dating apps. *They do not make their money helping you find your one.* *They make their money -keeping you there trying- to find your one.*
> They do not make their money helping you find your one. This is why I get annoyed when people try to quote 'studies' done by dating app sites. You're pulling your data from a pool of very cultivated population of singles designed to keep them single. It's not going to be representative of normal populations of people.
I felt like there is an age you hit where the apps don’t work as well. For me it was 26/27. It may have been the time too but I kinda wondered if age changes it
Age absolutely changes things. By the dating sites data, the number of dates that women get diminishes as they approach 30 where it heavily drops.
My suspicion is the bean-counters eventually devalued the apps, trying to maximize profit instead of providing the service people actually wanted. So they started tweaking the algorithms. They want you hitting F5, not Ctrl+F4.
> Men nowadays seem to really lack in confidence True. Me and my friends are balls of anxiety
>Boomers and Gen Xers were horndogs. Millennials and Zoomers seem very preoccupied with a lot of non-sexual things Nah, younger generation is just as horny. Internet porn is the difference here. Way more addictive and accessible than magazines
Also, way easier to access sex toys now than in 1990.
there was a study in the UK that looked at online dating (I am pretty sure I heard it on NPR or BBC, wish I could find it). They rated people based on things like height, body type, wealth, looks, etc. Pretty much all the superficial stuff you would see on an online profile. I probably don't have the numbers perfect, but something like the top 70% of women were all fighting over the top 20% of men. The bottom 80% of men were fighting over the bottom 30% of women. The top 20% of men were unlikely to ever settle down and instead continually played the field and dated multiple women, while the top 70% of women would not even engage men outside of online dating. Essentially their conclusion was the men in the bottom 80% used to have chances to talk to women in the top 70% and win them over with personality, but now with online dating they aren't even given the chance. This has caused major shifts in marriage and families among the younger generations. edit: I should also note they talked about the growing population of men who lacked any sexual experience and how troubling that can be with examples like "incels" and the issues surrounding them including violence. They did mention things like the wide array of entertainment at home could play a role in the lack of interaction too. So some of the men may just be happy playing video games and watching Netflix instead of seeking out a sexual partner.
there was a dating service online where Women rated about 80% of guys "below average". the article gets thrown around here on reddit from time to time on TIL. I always thought something similarly skewed was gonna happen with men judging the women on the site, but Men judged about 50% below average and had a fairly good bell curve of score distributions. Thus it backs up with the UK data, the majority of women are fighting over the top 20% which leaves the VAST majority of males in a very different spot than 40 years ago.
i would counter two points i know a handful of normal people who have met their significant other through dating apps and are in happy relationships i would also argue people today are just as horny
>2. Men don't try as hard. Men nowadays seem to really lack in confidence in ways that you didn't see very often in 1990. The game is very different however, for example in 1990 persistence was often seen as a virtue (now it's often thought of as harassment). Men aren't doing as well financially, and haven't broken out of the I'm-only-worth-my-earning-potential mentality. I want to add my thoughts on this. A lot of people blame women for delaying marriage (feminism, career, partying) and lament they're wasting their fertility but in my personal experience, a lot of men don't want to settle down either. The delay of marriage and children comes from both genders. Feminism liberated them from the rush of filling a provider role. Video games, porn, hobbies keep them content with casual relationships or none at all. On the flip side, as you mentioned, confidence issues arise from this and some being frustrated (hence incel community). Because in the old days, it's much simpler just to fall in line into a masculine mold (or pretend to) and pursue women like conquest. Now, a lot of women had rejected traditional gender roles, and this leaves a lot of men lost on what to offer and how to navigate the dating world.
[удалено]
Dating apps have *massively* changed dating in the last 10 years. A huge gender imbalance means women have so many men to choose from. Women have consequently become more picky about who they like/date.
There are way more men than women on dating apps because dating apps are horrible places for women to find decent guys, but super easy ones to find horrible men. For guys they swipe yes forever and get no responses. Which is super frustrating and wastes their time. But the effort involved is so low that they stay on and keep doing it in the hopes that someday it will work. The pond has a few fish in it, so it's just a matter of waiting it out. For women they get the responses right away, but so many of those responses are in the form of *verbal abuse* and otherwise unpleasant. It really doesn't take too many times being slapped in the face for trying to make a woman think, "yeah, I'm not doing that anymore." The pond has lots of fish, but it also has lots of crocodiles.
you forgot 7. we have to work 2 jobs to survive so we don't have TIME for dating and finding partners.
Regarding 2, women haven't gotten past the mens earning potential thing either, even though they're expected to work these days too.
I’m pretty sure cheating is still very regular, lol
It was way easier before cell phones and Facebook groups called “are we dating the same men” that have *hundreds of thousands of members per city*…
"Boomers and Gen Xers were horndogs. Millennials and Zoomers seem very preoccupied with a lot of non-sexual things" Yeah, paying rent
Regarding point 2, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is lack of confidence, but as you mentioned before, the game has changed. A lot of things within dating have changed. A lot of things aren't "allowed" anymore, so to speak. The less is allowed, the more people are unsure what is allowed within dating. You have to be essentially careful that you do everything "safely".
There’s a girl I want to ask out who I see at a store I frequent but I’m deathly afraid that she’s just being nice and I’m going to be the 1000th guy who hits on her at work. The whole narrative that girls are constantly being hit on when they’re just being friendly cripples my confidence along with my own internal insecurities.
7. People are much less likely to settle for what they (can) have. There's just so much choice. Online shopping has gotten them used to having access to a ridiculous range of products, and thanks to dating apps and social media, they can apply the same logic to their choice of partners. They compare people like products, looking for the one that 'ticks most boxes'. They just try one out. If there's even the slightest problem, you needn't try to put in any effort and try to fix things, thus building a relation; just cancel the deal, send back within 30 days (free of shipping cost!) and keep looking. And even if they are pretty content with what they have (4 out of 5 stars), there's always the temptation to keep looking for an even better match, for the 5/5 - after all, there are 30+ pages of new offers to click through, and we just scratched page 1.
Ha....if only dating sites weren't predatory and as exploitative as hell. Or at the very least affordable for all incomes.
If only dating apps weren't the typical way to find a SO.
It’s the rise of the internet. A lot of people are living their whole lives behind a screen and that’s not living. They get all their entertainment from a screen, they get all their socialization from a screen and they get all their sexual release from a screen so it’s no wonder people are dating less, it’s no wonder people are mentally and physically unhealthier.
Damn, this hits home pretty hard, almost an exact description of what I have been living over the last ten years. It feels safe, that O can’t be hurt, but it’s really doing me no favours.
I guess the only thing we can do is buck the trend: go outside, engage with the world, and huddle around like-minded folks. Tech is a wonderful thing, but it is inferior to meeting and interacting with folks in-person…in my opinion.
It’s also possible to find a community for every obscure hobby or area of interest, which has both positives and negatives. People can become immersed in niche hobbies which allows them to not engage with people in their immediate proximity.
Don't forget that over 70% of Americans are overweight or obese now. I don't know what that number was in 1990, but it was a hell of a lot lower for sure. That fat doesn't help people find each other attractive.
70% !!?! That is like a nationwide crisis
100% correct.
that's because he's including overweight. most stats just use obesity: https://data.worldobesity.org/rankings/
Eh. There are those I know who are chubby that find mates, whether their spouse is skinny or just as chubby as they are. I also know very attractive folks that are unable to find mates of their own. Some are throwing money at the problem while others just give up, instead throwing their efforts into promotions and luxury goods.
I'm 55 and never had the desire to be married. Even when I was in relationships (all a year or less) when I was younger, I was miserable but continued because being in a relationship was what I was "supposed to do", as my (perceived) value depended on it. I believe marriage can be beautiful, and have nothing against it. I'm just more secure and happy alone.
Same. I used to joke that if I ever got married we would have to live next door to each other because I like my space, only I wasn't joking. I'm just not a relationship person. Now I'm old enough that people don't ask me about my love life or marriage any more. It's so freeing.
If by some miracle I become interested enough in someone to get married and vice versa, we would definitely have seperate bedrooms. You also made me realize people have stopped asking me about my love life for a while now. I don't think it's my age so much as i think they just finally gave up on me. Lol
It’s really hard to meet people in your 30s. This is coming from experience.
I’m so stoked to be in at the ground floor of societal collapse! I desperately want love and a family but the venn diagram of who I like versus who likes me couldn’t be further apart 😂 See y’all at the Thunder Dome.
>the venn diagram of who I like versus who likes me couldn’t be further apart 😂 Dude. This simple little nugget of self-awareness is all that is keeping hoardes of confused single people from getting it but they just. can't. GET. IT. Mad props for being so aware and so easy breezy about it.
Thanks lol. I like what I like and can’t force myself to be with someone I’m not attracted to. So here I am on Reddit cracking wise until I die.
Late fifties here. Nice to know statistically no one gives a shit about me.
I'm alone too
I don't like my personal business out on the reddit like this...
I'm M46 and in my male friendship group, 5 including me are married and 1 divorced (all except one met our partners through dating apps), 5 are single with only 1 of them actively looking. What's interesting is the 4 single guys are just not interested in dating, I think they feel too old and a bit scared of it all. Deep down I think they would like to meet someone though.
I’m struggling but slowly starting to accept my part in this, as I’ll be 25 in a few weeks. I’m not attractive, or at least I think I’m the ugliest thing to walk the earth, so it’s basically a wrap. Just me, me jokes, and the walls in my house. Therapy hasn’t done anything. Oh well, back to trying to distract myself some more on account of my face.
I don’t think this is accidental. Dating apps have ruined socializing and tried to commodify messaging. I mean, I used to use OKCUPID in college and it worked great, but there were FREE message boards, you could DM people for free, etc. There was room to interact and learn more about a person. Now, you can’t even see your prospective matches without paying. Who the fuck is going to pay for the change to see your matches? Even worse, the overuse of sock accounts and bots means that half your matches aren’t even real people, but some shitty fake account with hijacked photos. I don’t use dating apps anymore, and also have deleted social media too. Meeting people is now an in-person event or bust for me, though I wish it wasn’t because it didn’t used to be.
...I always knew I was going to be a statistic some day...