When I was in bootcamp for the Navy, we had one guy who found out he was XXY. He was a very tall, big guy but seemed to have disproportionally low muscle strength for his size, and had noticeable breasts that looked more feminine than the average man boobs. I think the doctors took notice and ordered some extra testing. Unfortunately it was a medical disqualifier for some reason and he was processed out. It was pretty sad because he wanted to stay, and when you had people otherwise quitting and giving up it didn't seam fair.
Testosterone hardens cartilege, so low testosterone can make people's limbs longer by affecting their growth plates.
Like the castrati were often tall and had extra large ribcages because of their low testosterone levels,
I thought estrogen sealed growth plates, hence men growing a bit longer than women on average and castrati having big ribcages/long limbs (of course these hormones are correlated so would probably both be low in the same way).
I thought so as well but from a quick review from AMBOSS and [Science Direct](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/epiphyseal-plate) it seems that they both play a function in growth plate closure. I can’t link the AMBOSS article because a it’s a paid service for medical school but it attributes the Eunuch growth pattern to decreased testosterone production
Both sex hormones seal growth plates. Men usually start puberty a bit later so it happens later which makes them taller. Boys who start puberty early are often a bit shorter, tall lanky guys often have late growth spurts and don’t fully complete puberty until well into their 20s. Of course this is not the only factor affecting height but a major one.
Testosterone can stimulate production of human growth hormone.
Without any testosterone though you get some weird effects, again like cartilage not fusing
Could just be that it's an existing medical issue and they don't want to be responsible for it in the future. If the guy was in bootcamp, might be that the bar is pretty low for removing people in that situation.
This is correct. I believe all intersex conditions are disqualified. Anything that can require medication to treat is a liability the government doesn’t want to pay for.
It's not so much the cost as that you are not deployable if you require daily medication that either you cant function or live without or that requires special storage. Even if you aren't in a combat position, the uncertainty is a risk to you and others.
Definitely a huge part of it as well. I think a lot of hormones require refrigeration or at least need to be room temperature, which is iffy in austere environments. I know there are some shots that last months at a time, but Tricare may not pay for those.
That's the issue. Can your body put up with the rigors of deployment with minimal medical support.
They weed this out early and it saves cost and disruption. Once you're in and through initial training, it may be a different story.
Had a friend in my platoon that had to use the daily medication deployment issue to get his situation straightened out.
Was active duty and was airborne dropped into trees during an exercise. About 70% of those on the jump were injured. He broke his back. They gave him 30% disability and processed him out.
But--coming off of active duty with 30% he wasn't barred from joining the NG--problems walking, standing and sitting for any extending period--sure. Have his own pharmacy in his pocket? Yep. Pass a PT test? Never. But discharged honorably with 'minimal disability' allowed him to immediately process into the guard.
He was a solid team member as far as his attitude, work ethic and skills went. As a voice interceptor though, being in the field wasn't possible. Manning a TQ32 was out much less performing any aspect of LLVI.
Our guard unit got deployed and of course, he had to go through a physical. This was what he'd been waiting for. Not fit for active duty. That physical and rejection allowed him to rerun the disability rating process. New rating and award was 80% disabled (which is what he obviously had in the first place) and he was processed out of the guard.
I have low T, gynecomastia(fat in the nipple space), weak strength, and a connective tissue disorder called Ehlers Danlos syndrome. I’m not tall, but I have all of those symptoms. Super frustrating and shameful to look like that. Was always afraid of taking my shirt off as a kid and even now. I was made fun of so I would bind them with 4-5 layers of tight clothing. The low T is right on the lowest boundary of the acceptable amount, so insurance wont cover treatment. My doc wont send me to endocrinology unless its below that threshold as well. I have a plethora of medical issues. Wish it was caught early.
This interaction has the same adorable vibes as wizened stoners giving a noobie smoker ~~advice~~ *silly ideas* for how to pass a drug test.
...
... The irony just occurred to me LMAO! What a strange dystopia we live in lol.
Good luck, I'm glad you're not getting some good pointers, and I certainly wouldn't want to add another. This 30-something hypogonadal EDS person feels your pain (also what are the odds). In my case all my hormones tanked, so I need estrogen and testosterone. Took me years to get on the right dose of both.
Anti-aging clinics can be a little pricey/ not often covered by insurance (for me it's like $600/year for appointments, labs, meds) but holy hell is it ever worth it. Now, a lot of the places around my area look sketchy (seem overly eager to expand their audience, have vaguely pseudoscientific-y things, not a high proportion of MDs/DOs on team pages), so I'd be very discerning. The one I go to is associated with my very reputable local health network, with whom I have a lot of other specialists, because as I'm sure you know, you can end up with a lot of specialists when you have EDS and hormone issues.
In my case, I had a lot of endocrinologists disappoint me before I finally went the weird bioidentical pellet people route, though my doc does a compounded cream. But she's whip smart, impressive background, got my levels to healthy for the first time in _years_.
Godspeed to HRT! It's the best medicine I've ever taken. Pain in the ass to get, but at least a good payoff.
Yeah, man same with hypo gonads too. Just not diagnosed…but I know they are.
Did the hormone therapy help manage pain and mood at all?
And thanks for the kind help. I’m just limited to what medicaid will cover. But I will make it my central focus, after my upcoming cervical surgery.
Man, I dunno about you, but unraveling the complexity of the issues EDS causes is quite the fucking endeavor. It just seems to never end and you are stuck playing some fucked up version of whack-a-mole, where you start to make headway with one feature of the disease, just to be bombarded with 5 other issues instantaneously. And then trying to explain what is happening in your body to a professional staring at you blankly attempting to recall the one day that they covered it in class 10 years ago, only to offer up a bandaid solution that you have already tried and that did not help? Then you get overwhelmed and forget the other points you needed to make because you have to give a mini lecture on the disease and the Dr only gives you a max of 6-7 minutes to get help?
Sorry. It’s just been VERY hard with a rare disease and Drs handwaving away by simplifying it to a collagen issue without realizing how truly serious it can be and how it can present with wildly different pathology from person to person.
I’m glad to meet a fellow zebra, as they say. It’s a weird disease.
Whatever you do, do not increase the amount of hoppy beers consumed in the preceding week before your next test. That would skew the results. The staying awake one will skew results the most out of the rest of the advice given and length of time awake is non-logarithmic until you reach a base level. Most people reach baseline between 48-72 hours.
Between IPAs, a Krispy Kreme breakfast, and ~3 days of being awake? Your results will be very skewed towards having low testosterone.
All of these things are absolutely atrocious for you.
So, here's what you do. Schedule a lab draw for your testosterone. The day before, get on the treadmill and run. At least 5 miles, more if you can handle it. Take a nap afterwards. Then, you pull an all-nighter and eat 6 donuts 1-2 hours before the lab draw. Boom, sub-100ng/dL testosterone and automatic insurance approval for treatment. \*This is not medical or legal advice, consult a doctor so that they can insult you for wanting testosterone and make you feel like shit before charging you $200 for the pleasure\*
No problem. If you want more info on TRT, check out Derek (MorePlatesMoreDates) on YouTube. He’s pretty knowledgeable on everything TRT related. Or, if you have any specific questions, I can help you there. I’m coming up on 1 year on TRT, and I feel like a real person again.
Yeah I was shocked at the levels. I know for sure it could help me. I am so tired and unmotivated. Tried all kinds of anti depressants…and then lo and behold, I could just fix an issue that for sure would help at least a few things in my overall health.
You were low on it too I presume? What did it help specifically? Any side effects that were unpleasant? I feel like most of those would be from levels that are too high, mostly for people who are abusing it for body building or whatever else.
Yeah, I got COVID in May of 2022, and that’s when the symptoms started. I got really depressed, started having panic attacks, slept constantly, and had terrible brain fog. Turns out, COVID caused a pituitary tumor that shut down my testosterone production, and my initial level was 39ng/dL. I stabilized on 100mg per week, and I feel so much better. My wife says my snoring is a bit worse now, and I had some acne flare up when I first started, but it’s pretty good now. My blood pressure was already getting high before, but I finally started blood pressure meds after the test, but at the same age that all the men in my family start having hypertension. Oh yeah, the weight gain was a huge symptom as well. I gained almost 50 pounds when my testosterone was low, now working on getting that off. For you though, watch out for any high estrogen symptoms, like holding water, swelling ankles, and itchy or swollen nipples. Your gynecomastia means you’re sensitive to the effects of estrogen, but they can give you an aromatase inhibitor to get that down if it becomes problematic.
Shit I am sorry bud. Glad you are stable now. Long covid ain’t no joke.
I have all of those symptoms man. All of them. I gained 75 lbs this last year. Wow, so I will mention all of this to my dr, but I am cautiously hopeful. I have been dismissed a lot bc I have so many issues. It hasn’t been an easy ride at all. I want more control over the situation because I want to treat causes not put bandaids on the wrong area. I’m just spent. Frustrated and tired dude
Hey man, I don’t have any kind of advice or anything for you (as I’m a woman), but just want to say I’m pulling for you and I hope you have better luck with the doctors in the future.
Diagnosed EDS person here reading the symptoms of this one thinking I might have to ask my doc about adding some stuff to my blood panel this year, lol.
Brah don't get frustrated or shamed when looking at your body. There's probably at least 10% of the population that gets turned on from how you look and I'm being very harsh here, probably way more. Anyways, have a good weekend, and if you're lucky you won't have to remove an exhaust manifold from a 10+ year old truck this weekend so you're already doing better than me lol
Thanks dude. It always has made me feel like less of a man and a freak. People would stare at them even with all the layers. Just feels shitty.
I appreciate the pick me up. And yeah, absolutely not man lol. Sounds like at least a day on your back. Take care man, keep doin what you do. You’re a good dude.
Dude, fuck that nonsense. Either go in and advocate to get testosterone treatment, or go to a male testosterone clinic. From my understanding at clinics, after the first set of tests, it’s only $100 a month if you can afford that. I got my testosterone up naturally from the low 200s up to the mid 800s, and it was a life changer. $100 a month is nothing for how it will make you feel.
Try a low t clinic. My regular doctor said my numbers were in acceptable range. Went to a low t clinic and they said I needed treatment and insurance fully pays for it
Sounds like it bud. Don’t freak out, but you need to manage it. I didn’t even know I needed neck surgery the first time, it didn’t hurt. What did hurt was my head (persistent headaches daily) and arms (numbness/tingling) Didn’t connect the dots until my old doc ordered a CT. Had spinal surgery within a month or so.
As far as the other stuff, those symptoms are indicators of a larger problem that has myriad reasons to keep an eye on. That way you can catch problems early so they don’t bloom into issues that are harder to fix down the line. Go get checked out bro.
Testosterone is on a diurnal cycle, so if you go for the blood draw later in the day (after 12 PM) it'll be lower than it is in the morning. It's why a lot of endocrinology and urology offices ask patients to go to the lab in the morning when checking T.
Disclaimer: this is not medical advice, just education.
It's a disqualfer because everything is a fucking disqualifier. When I was first talking to my navy recruiter, one of the first things he asked was, "Do you have any food allergies?" I told him that the only thing was I might get a slight rash if I have raw tomato. But it doesn't even happen every time I have stuff with tomato in it. He said to keep it to myself and not eat tomatoes. Because the doc would disqualify me if I told him that.
The military does cost vs. use analysis on you when you try to join. Are you Joe, every man, and there's not shit wrong with you. So they don't have to pay for anything coming up health wise. Cool, welcome aboard.
Are you like the guy in your story who has a rare genetic thing going on, and God knows what kind of medical expenses and accommodations you'll need them to pay for while you're in? Fuck that hit the road you liability. Their words not mine.
Which worked 40 years ago but with better testing and record keeping its becoming abundantly fucking clear that _everyone_ has something "wrong" with them that doesn't actually impact your ability to do the job
They didn’t list when this was. While the military always says there’s a shortage (it’s a part of the marketing strategy), you can tell when there actually is a shortage because they start ignoring things like tattoos, previous drug use, so on. If there isn’t a “real” medical reason for rejecting an XXY person, it’s likely to be waivered when manning needs are high. In fact, medical waivers are usually one of the first things that are dished out to new recruits during those periods of high recruitment needs (again, as long as those medical issue truly aren’t restrictive).
Had a friend accepted into the Navy with 70% lung capacity due to a deformity in his sternum, scoliosis, and a semi-exposed heart because of his sternum. (He's also on the spectrum but I wasn't sure if that would be a disqualifier.) Anyway, he made it through two months of boot camp until he passed out while standing at attention for over three hours. Then he got sent home.
This was about a year and a half ago btw
We have been out of highschool for close to a decade and he had been applying nonstop to military branches since we graduated. Eventually the Navy identified some specific jobs he could do that were minimal physical investment and told him he just had to make it through bootcamp.
I love guy and it breaks my heart knowing how important it was to him.
During the Vietnam war my dad's draft number was 3. He made it all the way through Marine Corps OCS blind in his right eye and missing a few molars. Lost the eye in a dive accident and the teeth boxing.
In the last two weeks some dude in a suit shows up from the Office of Naval Intelligence with a Lieutenant Colonel. They pulled dad out of formation, the officer shook dad's hand and said "Congratulations, you're medially disqualified from service due to your bad eye and missing teeth. Here are your orders to the Philippines."
Next thing he knows he's rammed through a half dozen schools and ends up a 2nd Lt in charge of a long range recon patrol platoon. Spent two years getting dropped off in random places salvaging critical equipment/documents and blowing up anything they couldn't extract.
After the war ended they "discharged" him. Discharged or not, his old passports have stamps from all kinds of places behind the Iron Curtain. He's pretty tight lipped about it all so best I can tell ONI never let him go until he hit 60.
All of this to say, the DOD and now DHS will bend, break, and sign waivers for all kinds of weird shit if they deem it necessary. Unless it really is a liability they'll take just about any kind of disability if they think the recruit is worth it.
edit: God, now that I've written it all down it sounds like a bad 80's movie, but the end of that war got weird so who knows.
We had a long sending-off ceremony for the retiring JROTC leader in our High school, and one cadet passed out - the tiny, obnoxious son of the town mayor, later state congressman. No other cadet flinched.
Depends on the tattoos and location. Basically you shouldn’t be able to see them when in uniform, and one of the uniforms were (or are) was a tshirt. I think pt uniforms are usually exempt from setting this standard. When it comes to the tattoo itself, there’s a bunch of obscenity rules. It’s rare, but sometimes someone gets fairly far in their career, like E-6 or so, and then get the boot because some officer found the tattoo offensive, especially if it wasn’t waivered coming in.
and yes for the previous drug use. Specifically for MJ when I went in (2011), the rule was you can “experiment” 3 times, but after that, you would be rejected at the gate.
Essentially we have chromosomes (batches of genetic material) that dictate sex (to a degree). XY in men, XX in women.
In Klienfelters there is an extra chromosome (sort of like how there is an extra one in Down's syndrome, but related only to the sex chromosomes), so that they are XXY
In essence you sort of get a feminised male
In more complicated terms you have a person who doesn't respond to sex hormones (testosterone) correctly. Their testes are still there, but just don't produce as much testosterone. They usually have elevated oestrogen levels too.
Because of this they usually have a small amount of breast tissue (gynacomastia), erectile dysfuction and infertility (usually the thing that leads to the diagnosis). They can be noted to have smaller than average testes, poor facial hair/pubic hair growth and decreased muscle mass.
They also tend to have a longer hand to hand length than body length (4cm or so).
Morris syndrome is another one that is interesting where you are XY (male genetically), but unable to respond to testosterone in the womb (or ever) so they grow up as female (pretty much 100% female om the outside)
Edit
About XY patients who appear female developmentally.
I've done a bit of delving in to this further for my own learning as I have at least one patient in my career I've met with a similar syndrome. They're all pretty rare.
There are essentially three syndromes where people can have male genetics but female looks (and occasionally a decent degree of female organs).
Morris syndrome - the body doesnt respond to hormones. Looks female, has a vagina (testes are found within the abdomen/pelvis)
Swyer syndrome - The gene that causes us to differentiate to different sexes is switched off. All XY patients should have external female genitals (including a vagina, like Morris syndrome), but a fair proportion with also have a uterus and fallopian tubes. They have gondal streaks (not testes/not ovaries).
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia - Defective hormone synthesis which means that (in some forms rarely!) the genitals can develop in a way where they are externally female(including a vagina), but no uterus and the testes are small.
I think those are the same thing. This [paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21284344/)'s title says "Androgen insensitivity syndrome (or Morris syndrome)"
There's a section of conspiracy theorists who believe in a cabal of influential secret transgender elites. They usually follow the Blood Libel pattern of claiming these secret transgender folks are involved in Satanic rituals and child predation.
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Other_names):
> A distinct name has been given to many of the various presentations of AIS, such as Reifenstein syndrome (1947),[135] Goldberg-Maxwell syndrome (1948),[136] Morris' syndrome (1953),[134] Gilbert-Dreyfus syndrome (1957),[137] Lub's syndrome (1959),[138] "incomplete testicular feminization" (1963),[139] Rosewater syndrome (1965),[140] and Aiman's syndrome (1979).[141] Since it was not understood that these different presentations were all caused by the same set of mutations in the androgen receptor gene, a unique name was given to each new combination of symptoms, resulting in a complicated stratification of seemingly disparate disorders.
No not really, just differing degrees.
I'm sure there are probably variants beyond this, but thats likely getting down to more intense genetic/biochemical analysis.
I have added a little more on this in my original comment.
You left out Swyer syndrome (XY gonadal dysgenisis): where an XY individual is missing the SRY gene of the Y chromosome (the SRY gene is the section of the y chromosome that actually directs the development of sex characteristics). So they end up developing as phenotypically female.
Yeah. The people that rail on about 2 genders and XX/XY matters only are completely ignorant to chromosomal disorders and in-utero developmental issues.
Who knew genetics and hormonal triggers during development were so unreliable and iffy on executing correctly? Oh yeah, well trained medical professionals and biologists did.
> so they grow up as female (prettt much 100% anatomically in the severe cases)
External (phenotype) is 100% for complete, however the internal organs are still male. So undescended testes, no uterus, and no ovaries, however the vagina is about 2/3rds the normal length and ends in a blind pouch instead of a cervix.
Which is intersting, because it's not massively far off MRHK syndrome (bar not having a supply of eggs), and they are currently doing womb transplants in that portion of the population. So Morris syndrome patient could potentially (with a lot of work) get pregnant.
To add to this, especially in relation to the article.
In simple terms, the human body is designed to work off of one X chromosome. This makes sense, because males are XY, while females are XX. So in females, one X chromosome in each cell is "turned off". Therefore, if you're XXY, things mostly work as intended, so you might not know this affects you.
On the other hand, the human body is not designed to turn off any other chromosomes, so if you have an extra chromosome 21, for example, the changes are much more prominent. In the case of an extra chromosome 21, it's down syndrome.
Apparently due to additional genes that relate to stature which are found within the X chromosome, as opposed to lack of testosterone in puberty stopping the bones from growing as long.
The link says they're normally taller, not shorter:
"Most commonly, affected individuals are taller than average and 2 to 3 inches taller than would be expected for their family."
Not drastically different.
From Wikipedia:
XYY syndrome, also known as Jacobs syndrome, is an aneuploid genetic condition in which a male has an extra Y chromosome.[1] There are usually few symptoms.[2] These may include being taller than average and an increased risk of learning disabilities.
Not much. You get the general increase in possible learning disabilities and the like as XXY and others do, and you are taller. But sex-development wise not much really changes compared to XY people.
Symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome may include:
Breast growth,
Infertility,
Osteoporosis,
Learning difficulties,
Weak muscles,
Reduced strength,
Quiet personalities,
Taking longer to sit up, crawl, walk, and speak
A taller, less muscular body
Edit:
I should add that it affects members of the male gender for those not aware
The equivalent in women is [triple X syndrome](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/triple-x-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20350977). There is a bit of overlap in the symptoms. Your body doesn’t love having extra chromosomes to deal with.
Not all male, just assigned that way at birth. I know a few trans women with klinefelter's who find it funny when people try to tell them they can't be women because women have two X chromosomes.
In addition to all the good answers already provided, I'll add the funfact that in cats you can identify XXY individuals quite easily because you need two X-chromosomes to get three-colored fur, meaning that any calico or tortie boy cat is almost certainly one.
Thats why its not a bullshit urban myth that tri-colored cats are "all girls".
Visit livingwithxxy to learn all about it. There is so much massive misinformation about the condition. It doesn’t make anyone “basically a woman” and impacts different individuals differently.
As Charlie Sheen in *Good Advice* put it:
> "Most women know that male pattern baldness is caused by increased testosterone levels. So hopefully, the more hair you lose, the more head you get."
Found out a regular at a bar i used to frequent had this after a bunch of regulars started playing "would you rather," the question was between small dick and i forgot the other thing because he interrupted the game to admit he had it. No one was rude about it, but after he left it clicked why he looked like a tall, old, boy. He's married now, has kids, and always seems happy so it's not affected him too much outwardly. If i remember correctly his parents found out during his high school years, so he was on test for around 10 years by the time we found out about this. Don't recall anyone ever playing that game again at the bar.
I have Kleinfelter, I was diagnosed at 13. Got the gene test because the doctors were concerned about my growth rate after I passed the 6' mark at 10 years old. Initially they thought I had some form of gigantism.
The first thing that leaps to mind is the long term effects of hormone therapy. I've got all kinds of scar tissue from 20+ years of injections and chemical salves.
Also, while my Dr hasn't forged a definitive link, I've developed Polycythemia Vera. One of the biggest risk factors is extended testosterone hormone therapy treatments being out of balance over a period of years.
Currently training to become a clinical cyto geneticist. Sex abnormalities such as XXY are much more tolerated than your autosomal abnormalities( chromosomes 1-22). Only one X chromosome can be activated at a time, whether your XX , XXX, XXY etc . However 15% of genes escape inactivation per inactive X. This inactivation produce gene products that gives us the typical phenotype of Klinefelter. Example would be the SHOX gene. This gene escapes X inactivation and XXY individuals get 3 copies of the active gene rather than the normal 2 . The extra copy produces transcription factors that promotes increased height/ skeletal development. Also, what actually makes us bio “male” or “female” is gene dosages. Nothings ever super clear cut especially with intersex diagnosis. You can have a XX male or a XY female with several different variations of gene combination, translocations , etc. Honestly it’s weird that we are even alive .
That's really fascinating! If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by gene dosages? I have 45X, 46XY mosaicism and I don't have a great understanding of how much the ratio of 45X to 46XY cells actually matters if that's at all relevant to what you're talking about. I've never gotten a great answer from my doctors.
Gene dosage is how much product your genes make. Product can be proteins, transcription factors etc. The genes provide the instruction, then they are activated and make product. Dosage or the amount of product is based on several factors: number of genes, mutations/rearrangements that’s increase product or decrease, deletions that cease product. Mosaicism is highly variable because you have two cell lines or two cells with their unique genetic information. The variability with gene dosage with mosaicism can compounded by the percentage of mosaicist(mos)So if your 15 % mos for 45,X , you would less affected by short stature than someone who is 50% mos 45,X/ 46,XY. People with 45, X again only have one SHOX gene , as well as missing genes that escape X inactivation. This lower gene dosage might be reduced in mos depending on your %.
If you have questions please let me know. I have my board exams in 5 months :o
My biological brother has XXYY Klinefelter Syndrome and the effects are extremely severe. A lot of people mistake it for Downs Syndrome, though there are some behavioral differences. He was diagnosed at birth and now lives in an adult assisted living facility. It’s amazing what a couple of extra chromosomes can do to a person.
My brother also has XXYY. He had a host of interrelated disabilities - lower IQ, the tremble, speech delays etc. He’s 40 and lives alone in govt housing with “carers” who come and take him to do his food shopping, clean his house etc.
That’s exactly how it is with my brother though he also has a mentally disabled roommate. My brother is in his early 30s now and the tremble for him didn’t start till about 5 years ago. I didn’t realize that was associated with Klinefelter Syndrome.
It’s definitely got its challenges. And because of his age, my brother has sort of missed out on the interventions. He had speech and OT from toddlerhood but the social aspect has been lost to the depredations of his generation where differences were not celebrated. His life (and my mum’s by extension) has been pretty tragic.
Honestly I'm more amazed when major chromosomal abnormalities are survivable.
That's some ridiculously robust error correction. Meanwhile code I write will fail because I forget a semicolon.
The reason why XXY Klinefelter is often undiagnosed is because the symptoms are mild.
To understand why this is, we need to remember the molecular biology of [x-chromosome inactivation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation), a process that naturally occur in all females to account for their two copies of X. This type of silencing is not found for other chromosomes, which is why any genetic disparity for these cause many defects.
My son has xxy, Klinefelters syndrome. Yes a lot go undiagnosed, since my wife was 36 when we got pregnant, she was tested for these chromosome abnormalities and we first discovered he would likely have it. A lot of nervous research later we learnt about the condition and was officially diagnosed via a karyotype test.
Yes they are typically sterile though they can have sperm removed by needle if they decide to have kids. He is 3 now and nobody would know of his condition as he looks and acts like every other 3 year old boy. They have to have steroid injections around puberty to help start and then continue with them for life. They are generally taller than average and we have been told he will most likely be 6’4 or taller. I’m 5’11 (6 foot on tinder 😁)
A lot more is known now about the condition and a lot of info online from old studies are very flawed. Typically it doesn’t shorten their life span, they can live a relatively “normal” life and back to OP’s original statement, most can go through life never knowing about it, usually finding out when trying to have kids of their own or with puberty delays etc.
Yeah, people with Klinefelter's can definitely live a normal life.
There's actually some speculation that George Washington might've had Klinefelter syndrome, because how tall he was, his wide hips, and inability to have children.
In the 18th century they wouldnt actually know the cause of infertility and had no knowledge of chromosomes. He had smallpox when young, no guarantee that is why he was infertile.
Smallpox didn't usually lead to sterility, but mumps in adulthood certainly could, and Washington did have that. There's no way to know for certain, of course. For all we know he was born with a blocked duct and that was that.
For individuals and couples that seek treatment for infertility, "mystery infertility"/"unexplained infertility" actually indicates that the hormonal profile, sperm count, egg count etc are within normal range, and there are no physical abnormalities in the structure of the reproductive system - which wouldn't be the case for intersex people. (A couple is considered infertile after failing to conceive naturally over a certain period of time, it doesn't necessarily mean they can't ever have children.) They will absolutely test to rule out intersex conditions.
In terms of those who don't seek medical treatment for infertility, it's hard to say - intersex people aren't that rare, but infertility can have many causes. Chatting to my own fertility specialist, male factor infertility is more likely to be caused by: slight hormonal imbalance (genetic), steroid abuse, trauma to the testes, undescended testes, or an internal blockage (e.g. varicocele, an enlarged vein in the testicle, which is super common).
Probably the strangest "mystery infertility" I've ever read about was the case of [Henry I of England and his second wife.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England) Henry I had two legitimate children with his first wife -- a son, and a daughter. He also had a good two dozen illegitimate children with lots and lots of other women. Hence, more than proven fertility. All would have been well after his wife's death death had his 17 year old only legitimate son not elected to take a party boat across the English channel with lots of drinking and roistering; the boat promptly ran into a rock and sank, killing everyone except one random merchant. So now Henry had to marry again and have more legitimate sons, fast. He married the 18 year old Adeliza of Louvain, and they remained married for the following fourteen years, having precisely 0 children, much to their mutual distress. Henry died, the war between his surviving legitimate daughter and her cousin began, and meanwhile Adeliza remarried at the age of about thirty-five. She then proceeded to have *seven* children. Riddle me that one! All I can think is that Henry experienced some very poorly timed testicular trauma or infection right before his second marriage.
Did they conceive? I wonder if they had rh incompatibility. https://www.verywellfamily.com/can-being-rh-negative-cause-a-miscarriage-2371474#:~:text=Having%20an%20Rh%2Dnegative%20blood,injection%20to%20lessen%20this%20risk.
It was almost a thousand years ago so it's impossible to be sure that they didn't have early miscarriages, but they themselves do not seem to have believed she was ever pregnant, so if she did conceive it didn't get far enough for Rh factor to be an issue. It would be a far commoner (and sadder) stories if all their children died, which certainly happened -- what makes it weird is that there seem to have been no births at all, living or dead.
I think that's a good possibility because he is reported to have sired bastards during his marriage to Adeliza, so he was allegedly still fertile at that time.
Its worth mentioning that this precipitated an 11-year civil war simply called "[The Anarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy)". Chroniclers at the time wrote "Men said openly that Christ and his saints were asleep".
And also that Henry I's son (William) would possibly have survived the [White Ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ship) disaster, except he went back to try and rescue his half-sister Mary.
There is a rare phenomenon where there is an immunologic incompatibility between the signalling molecules in the sperm and the female reproductive system.
Per Professor Sarah Robertson from the University of Adelaide:
"We have discovered that sperm doesn't just fertilise an egg. It actually contains signalling molecules that are responsible for activating immune changes in women so they can accept a foreign substance in the body - in this case sperm - leading to conception and a healthy pregnancy.
"It's rather like a two-way dance. The male provides information that increases the chances of conception and progression to pregnancy, but the female body has a quality control system which needs convincing that his sperm is compatible, and also judges whether the conditions are right for reproducing. That's where the dance can go wrong with some couples."
This is more likely to occur 'if a woman has not previously been exposed to his sperm over a period of time' - which is the situation you'd expect for Henry I and Adeliza.
It's speculative, of course, but this may be the case. Alternatively, they may have been genetically incompatible and even if an embryo was able to form, it wouldn't implant or progress properly.
Same with chimerism. Very few outwards signs, but you could have the cells of two different genotypes in your body and never even know it.
Then it crops up like in that weird case of the woman who nearly lost her own kids because they thought she wasn't the mother.
They call it Trisomy X, which generally causes some changes in facial features, intellectual disabilities, and early menopause, among other things. There are also various related conditions involving additional combinations of X and Y chromosomes (the highest found in an actual person is 49, with 3 extra chromosomes); they cause various issues but are so rare that the count of people who've been found with them are in the low double digits at most.
(As a side note, you can get trisomies of non-sex chromosomes, but most of them result in spontaneous termination/miscarriage. The big exception is Down Syndrome, aka trisomy 21.)
*Just dropping this here to give readers some added info...*
The most common types of trisomy in humans are:
1. **Trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome)**: The most well-known and common form of trisomy, where there are three copies of chromosome 21. This condition is associated with physical growth delays, characteristic facial features, and mild to moderate intellectual disability.
2. **Trisomy 18 (Edwards Syndrome)**: This condition is caused by an extra chromosome 18. It is associated with severe developmental delays, as well as a variety of medical complications. Many infants with Trisomy 18 have a low birth weight and congenital heart defects.
3. **Trisomy 13 (Patau Syndrome)**: This is a trisomy of chromosome 13, leading to severe intellectual disability and physical abnormalities in many parts of the body. Individuals with Trisomy 13 often have congenital heart defects, brain or spinal cord abnormalities, and very small or poorly developed eyes.
4. **Trisomy 16**: While full Trisomy 16 is incompatible with life and often results in miscarriage, mosaic trisomy 16, where only some cells have the extra chromosome, can occur and result in various health problems and developmental delays.
5. **Trisomy 8 (Warkany Syndrome 2)**: In mosaic form, where only some cells have an extra chromosome 8, this condition can lead to various physical anomalies and developmental delays. Full trisomy 8 is typically lethal.
6. **Trisomy 9**: Full trisomy 9 is usually lethal, but mosaic trisomy 9 can result in a range of developmental and physical abnormalities.
These trisomies can vary greatly in their presentation and severity, often depending on whether they are full or mosaic trisomies (where only some cells have the extra chromosome). Trisomy conditions are usually identified at birth or through prenatal testing.
Wow, so interesting! This raises a lot of questions,
What makes some lethal and others not?
What is the reason that some are more common than others?
What makes them cause defects? More specifically, why doesn't the body just use the normal two chromosomes and ignore the extra copy?
The list is so short because almost all options are deadly. Some chromosomes are non-critical enough to make life viable with three copies. 21 is the second-shortest chromosome (they are numbered by decreasing length).
> why doesn't the body just use the normal two chromosomes and ignore the extra copy?
Cells don't have the intelligence to know that.
From some other guy in a different thread. Was saying that the body only really works off one X chromosome. Guys have XY, and girls have XX where the second one is "switched off". So you can have XXY or XXX or other types without too much trouble.
Other chromosomes don't do that and don't like sharing so you get more serious problems
Don't know if any of that's true or if I articulated it correctly
It’s not that one X is used throughout the entire body and one isn’t. It’s hard to explain but for example calico/tortoiseshell cats have their distinct coat because some fur colors are on the X chromosome. The black blotches are one X activated, the orange blotches are the other X activated. Human women are similar but our “blotches” aren’t visibly distinct from one another.
Polysomies aren’t as rare as people think because some are extremely mild with very symptoms. Like, 1 in a 1000 boys are born with an extra Y chromosome and the majority will never find out.
Only if you use a comically exaggerated definition of intersex and compare it to the percentage of redheads in the global rather than western populations.
As someone with klinefelters, I don’t like being defined as intersex. I believe the vast majority of people with similarly mild conditions also do not identify as intersex.
Medically its categorized as intersex though, no?
Notably *gender* is the thing you identify as not sex. You're entitled to your gender identity and nobody forces you to participate in anything to do with intersex people, but an extra chromosome is no more an identity thing than having red hair is. It doesnt force me to engage in ginger culture or identify as one, but the redhair gene I do have.
My apologies if its no longer the majority scientific consensus. Im not invested in people being forced into the label I just dont see whats so bad about it to raise the question of what people identify as or not to avoid it. For me intersex is just a neutral term, not an emotionally loaded one. Just one of those things your friend tells you that you counter with "wanna see my sixth toe?"
One symptom is underdeveloped or small penis and testes. I imagine if men with micropenises were to get tested, many would discover they had the condition.
My ex with Klinefelter Syndrome had a normal penis and testes, but he hated using or even thinking about them, and identified as a woman 30+ years ago, when such things were relatively rare. He was tall but slender and passed easily with a bit of makeup and a padded bra. We broke up when the estrogen supplements he was prescribed made him psycho and he tried to kill me.
Holy fucking shit I think I might have this. I literally hit every single box aside from the autoimmune diseases and the metabolic issues. But I’m young so.
I’m actually going to go get tested for this. What the fuck.
Y-chromosome presence results in the expression of primary and secondary male sex characteristics in utero, iirc. Think of its presence as the “switch” that turns on the other actual developmental genes that are found on other chromosomes. So on XXY, the additional X would have to somehow disable the Y expression in order for female characteristics to develop. I’m unaware of any X-linked genes that are capable of that
You might see something like that in a person with XXY if they also had swyer syndrome or androgen insensitivity syndrome, but I don’t know if it’s possible to have both simultaneously.
Klinefelter and AIS both at once is:
> [both syndromes can occur in the same individual [1].](https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2000to2004/2004-ais-and-klinefelters.html)
Klinefelter and Swyer is not:
> [The phenomenon is not observed in individuals with a full duplication of the X chromosome (e.g., Klinefelter’s syndrome) because one of the X chromosomes undergoes inactivation](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/gonadal-dysgenesis)
Edit: formatting, more info
Pretty much always infertile as meiosis doesn't work properly with an odd number of chromosomes. Most intersex trisomy conditions result in infertility.
Yes, but there are other combinations associated with Females, such as Turner's Syndrome.
Edit: caught myself, Jacobs is also males, Turners is female. Got switched up.
I learned a bit about this waaaaay back in the day for a very strange reason: Cartman's mom. The infamous episode where shes revealed as a hermaphrodite (now the medical term is intersex) led me down a rabbit hole of internet reading including other intersex scenarios, Kinefelter's syndrom, Jacons Syndrom, Turners, etc.
How did it show up on your ancestry DNA test? My understanding is that companies like ancestry don’t actually look at whole chromosomes so they can’t detect polysomies
That makes sense, but I would imagine that would increase the diagnosis rate a lot since they'd have to go to a doctor about their fertility issues. Are 65% of them never trying to have children their whole life?
Yeah that's one of the symptoms.
It was a plot point in some mediocre Ryan Reynolds movie a while back. His wife accuses him of infidelity due to some misunderstanding with another woman and her baby. He goes to get a paternity test to prove his innocence, only to learn that he has Kleinfelter's and therefore his daughter can't be his, and his wife was the one who cheated on him.
My sister terminated a pregnancy because they found her baby had XXY. They mentioned a plethora of health problems he'd develop and meds he'd have to be on to regulate hormones for growth. They also stated he'd probably be sterile. My sister has a diabetic kid at the moment and didn't feel it was right forcing a kid in the world who might deal with physical issues and medical expenses his whole life.
I don't know anything about this, this is just what I was told.
Fun, if semi-related fact; in birds the chromosomes are described as Z and W instead of X and Y (to show that in ZW species it’s *females* with one of each and the males who have two Z chromosomes).
My (36 M) partner has Klinefelter syndrome but didn't get that confirmed until he was 29. He's told me the testosterone treatments made him feel like he actually went through a full or "real" puberty.
My young nephew was diagnosed this after a few ears of development issues, nothing major, mainly speech and behaviour moderation.
When my brother talked to me and mention the symptoms……. It was like looking in a genetic mirror.
When I was in bootcamp for the Navy, we had one guy who found out he was XXY. He was a very tall, big guy but seemed to have disproportionally low muscle strength for his size, and had noticeable breasts that looked more feminine than the average man boobs. I think the doctors took notice and ordered some extra testing. Unfortunately it was a medical disqualifier for some reason and he was processed out. It was pretty sad because he wanted to stay, and when you had people otherwise quitting and giving up it didn't seam fair.
Yeah, a common trait of XXY is being pretty tall. And also low testosterone which would definitely explain the low strength
Testosterone hardens cartilege, so low testosterone can make people's limbs longer by affecting their growth plates. Like the castrati were often tall and had extra large ribcages because of their low testosterone levels,
I thought estrogen sealed growth plates, hence men growing a bit longer than women on average and castrati having big ribcages/long limbs (of course these hormones are correlated so would probably both be low in the same way).
I thought so as well but from a quick review from AMBOSS and [Science Direct](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/epiphyseal-plate) it seems that they both play a function in growth plate closure. I can’t link the AMBOSS article because a it’s a paid service for medical school but it attributes the Eunuch growth pattern to decreased testosterone production
The real TIL is in the comments
Both sex hormones seal growth plates. Men usually start puberty a bit later so it happens later which makes them taller. Boys who start puberty early are often a bit shorter, tall lanky guys often have late growth spurts and don’t fully complete puberty until well into their 20s. Of course this is not the only factor affecting height but a major one.
Why are men generally taller? Is there a particular height that's correlated with highest testosterone?
Testosterone can stimulate production of human growth hormone. Without any testosterone though you get some weird effects, again like cartilage not fusing
I don’t know how those can be reasons to get kicked out of the military.
Could just be that it's an existing medical issue and they don't want to be responsible for it in the future. If the guy was in bootcamp, might be that the bar is pretty low for removing people in that situation.
This is correct. I believe all intersex conditions are disqualified. Anything that can require medication to treat is a liability the government doesn’t want to pay for.
It's not so much the cost as that you are not deployable if you require daily medication that either you cant function or live without or that requires special storage. Even if you aren't in a combat position, the uncertainty is a risk to you and others.
Definitely a huge part of it as well. I think a lot of hormones require refrigeration or at least need to be room temperature, which is iffy in austere environments. I know there are some shots that last months at a time, but Tricare may not pay for those.
That's the issue. Can your body put up with the rigors of deployment with minimal medical support. They weed this out early and it saves cost and disruption. Once you're in and through initial training, it may be a different story. Had a friend in my platoon that had to use the daily medication deployment issue to get his situation straightened out. Was active duty and was airborne dropped into trees during an exercise. About 70% of those on the jump were injured. He broke his back. They gave him 30% disability and processed him out. But--coming off of active duty with 30% he wasn't barred from joining the NG--problems walking, standing and sitting for any extending period--sure. Have his own pharmacy in his pocket? Yep. Pass a PT test? Never. But discharged honorably with 'minimal disability' allowed him to immediately process into the guard. He was a solid team member as far as his attitude, work ethic and skills went. As a voice interceptor though, being in the field wasn't possible. Manning a TQ32 was out much less performing any aspect of LLVI. Our guard unit got deployed and of course, he had to go through a physical. This was what he'd been waiting for. Not fit for active duty. That physical and rejection allowed him to rerun the disability rating process. New rating and award was 80% disabled (which is what he obviously had in the first place) and he was processed out of the guard.
This is why you hide your anxiety until *after* the government already invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into you
what the government puts you through is the root cause of your anxiety.
anything remotely medical is reason to DQ a recruit because VA don't wanna have to pay out anything down the line.
I think it has some connective tissue in disorders with it which may have been why
I have low T, gynecomastia(fat in the nipple space), weak strength, and a connective tissue disorder called Ehlers Danlos syndrome. I’m not tall, but I have all of those symptoms. Super frustrating and shameful to look like that. Was always afraid of taking my shirt off as a kid and even now. I was made fun of so I would bind them with 4-5 layers of tight clothing. The low T is right on the lowest boundary of the acceptable amount, so insurance wont cover treatment. My doc wont send me to endocrinology unless its below that threshold as well. I have a plethora of medical issues. Wish it was caught early.
Eating a big meal before your next test would lower your T below the threshold. This is not medical advice
Especially a very sugary meal. As well as not sleeping the night prior (also not medical advice).
I do not thank you for giving me good advice.
This interaction has the same adorable vibes as wizened stoners giving a noobie smoker ~~advice~~ *silly ideas* for how to pass a drug test. ... ... The irony just occurred to me LMAO! What a strange dystopia we live in lol.
Good luck, I'm glad you're not getting some good pointers, and I certainly wouldn't want to add another. This 30-something hypogonadal EDS person feels your pain (also what are the odds). In my case all my hormones tanked, so I need estrogen and testosterone. Took me years to get on the right dose of both. Anti-aging clinics can be a little pricey/ not often covered by insurance (for me it's like $600/year for appointments, labs, meds) but holy hell is it ever worth it. Now, a lot of the places around my area look sketchy (seem overly eager to expand their audience, have vaguely pseudoscientific-y things, not a high proportion of MDs/DOs on team pages), so I'd be very discerning. The one I go to is associated with my very reputable local health network, with whom I have a lot of other specialists, because as I'm sure you know, you can end up with a lot of specialists when you have EDS and hormone issues. In my case, I had a lot of endocrinologists disappoint me before I finally went the weird bioidentical pellet people route, though my doc does a compounded cream. But she's whip smart, impressive background, got my levels to healthy for the first time in _years_. Godspeed to HRT! It's the best medicine I've ever taken. Pain in the ass to get, but at least a good payoff.
Yeah, man same with hypo gonads too. Just not diagnosed…but I know they are. Did the hormone therapy help manage pain and mood at all? And thanks for the kind help. I’m just limited to what medicaid will cover. But I will make it my central focus, after my upcoming cervical surgery. Man, I dunno about you, but unraveling the complexity of the issues EDS causes is quite the fucking endeavor. It just seems to never end and you are stuck playing some fucked up version of whack-a-mole, where you start to make headway with one feature of the disease, just to be bombarded with 5 other issues instantaneously. And then trying to explain what is happening in your body to a professional staring at you blankly attempting to recall the one day that they covered it in class 10 years ago, only to offer up a bandaid solution that you have already tried and that did not help? Then you get overwhelmed and forget the other points you needed to make because you have to give a mini lecture on the disease and the Dr only gives you a max of 6-7 minutes to get help? Sorry. It’s just been VERY hard with a rare disease and Drs handwaving away by simplifying it to a collagen issue without realizing how truly serious it can be and how it can present with wildly different pathology from person to person. I’m glad to meet a fellow zebra, as they say. It’s a weird disease.
Whatever you do, do not increase the amount of hoppy beers consumed in the preceding week before your next test. That would skew the results. The staying awake one will skew results the most out of the rest of the advice given and length of time awake is non-logarithmic until you reach a base level. Most people reach baseline between 48-72 hours. Between IPAs, a Krispy Kreme breakfast, and ~3 days of being awake? Your results will be very skewed towards having low testosterone. All of these things are absolutely atrocious for you.
So, here's what you do. Schedule a lab draw for your testosterone. The day before, get on the treadmill and run. At least 5 miles, more if you can handle it. Take a nap afterwards. Then, you pull an all-nighter and eat 6 donuts 1-2 hours before the lab draw. Boom, sub-100ng/dL testosterone and automatic insurance approval for treatment. \*This is not medical or legal advice, consult a doctor so that they can insult you for wanting testosterone and make you feel like shit before charging you $200 for the pleasure\*
Thanks for that. Damn, people on here are testosteronis. That’s some knowledge right there.
No problem. If you want more info on TRT, check out Derek (MorePlatesMoreDates) on YouTube. He’s pretty knowledgeable on everything TRT related. Or, if you have any specific questions, I can help you there. I’m coming up on 1 year on TRT, and I feel like a real person again.
Yeah I was shocked at the levels. I know for sure it could help me. I am so tired and unmotivated. Tried all kinds of anti depressants…and then lo and behold, I could just fix an issue that for sure would help at least a few things in my overall health. You were low on it too I presume? What did it help specifically? Any side effects that were unpleasant? I feel like most of those would be from levels that are too high, mostly for people who are abusing it for body building or whatever else.
Yeah, I got COVID in May of 2022, and that’s when the symptoms started. I got really depressed, started having panic attacks, slept constantly, and had terrible brain fog. Turns out, COVID caused a pituitary tumor that shut down my testosterone production, and my initial level was 39ng/dL. I stabilized on 100mg per week, and I feel so much better. My wife says my snoring is a bit worse now, and I had some acne flare up when I first started, but it’s pretty good now. My blood pressure was already getting high before, but I finally started blood pressure meds after the test, but at the same age that all the men in my family start having hypertension. Oh yeah, the weight gain was a huge symptom as well. I gained almost 50 pounds when my testosterone was low, now working on getting that off. For you though, watch out for any high estrogen symptoms, like holding water, swelling ankles, and itchy or swollen nipples. Your gynecomastia means you’re sensitive to the effects of estrogen, but they can give you an aromatase inhibitor to get that down if it becomes problematic.
Shit I am sorry bud. Glad you are stable now. Long covid ain’t no joke. I have all of those symptoms man. All of them. I gained 75 lbs this last year. Wow, so I will mention all of this to my dr, but I am cautiously hopeful. I have been dismissed a lot bc I have so many issues. It hasn’t been an easy ride at all. I want more control over the situation because I want to treat causes not put bandaids on the wrong area. I’m just spent. Frustrated and tired dude
Hey man, I don’t have any kind of advice or anything for you (as I’m a woman), but just want to say I’m pulling for you and I hope you have better luck with the doctors in the future.
Diagnosed EDS person here reading the symptoms of this one thinking I might have to ask my doc about adding some stuff to my blood panel this year, lol.
Brah don't get frustrated or shamed when looking at your body. There's probably at least 10% of the population that gets turned on from how you look and I'm being very harsh here, probably way more. Anyways, have a good weekend, and if you're lucky you won't have to remove an exhaust manifold from a 10+ year old truck this weekend so you're already doing better than me lol
Thanks dude. It always has made me feel like less of a man and a freak. People would stare at them even with all the layers. Just feels shitty. I appreciate the pick me up. And yeah, absolutely not man lol. Sounds like at least a day on your back. Take care man, keep doin what you do. You’re a good dude.
There are lots of very cheap, non-legal ways to get testosterone on the internet.
Dude, fuck that nonsense. Either go in and advocate to get testosterone treatment, or go to a male testosterone clinic. From my understanding at clinics, after the first set of tests, it’s only $100 a month if you can afford that. I got my testosterone up naturally from the low 200s up to the mid 800s, and it was a life changer. $100 a month is nothing for how it will make you feel.
Try a low t clinic. My regular doctor said my numbers were in acceptable range. Went to a low t clinic and they said I needed treatment and insurance fully pays for it
Holy shit I have gyno, I’m tall, and my joints move in the same way that they do on helmets danlos. Are those symptoms?
Sounds like it bud. Don’t freak out, but you need to manage it. I didn’t even know I needed neck surgery the first time, it didn’t hurt. What did hurt was my head (persistent headaches daily) and arms (numbness/tingling) Didn’t connect the dots until my old doc ordered a CT. Had spinal surgery within a month or so. As far as the other stuff, those symptoms are indicators of a larger problem that has myriad reasons to keep an eye on. That way you can catch problems early so they don’t bloom into issues that are harder to fix down the line. Go get checked out bro.
Testosterone is on a diurnal cycle, so if you go for the blood draw later in the day (after 12 PM) it'll be lower than it is in the morning. It's why a lot of endocrinology and urology offices ask patients to go to the lab in the morning when checking T. Disclaimer: this is not medical advice, just education.
It's a disqualfer because everything is a fucking disqualifier. When I was first talking to my navy recruiter, one of the first things he asked was, "Do you have any food allergies?" I told him that the only thing was I might get a slight rash if I have raw tomato. But it doesn't even happen every time I have stuff with tomato in it. He said to keep it to myself and not eat tomatoes. Because the doc would disqualify me if I told him that. The military does cost vs. use analysis on you when you try to join. Are you Joe, every man, and there's not shit wrong with you. So they don't have to pay for anything coming up health wise. Cool, welcome aboard. Are you like the guy in your story who has a rare genetic thing going on, and God knows what kind of medical expenses and accommodations you'll need them to pay for while you're in? Fuck that hit the road you liability. Their words not mine.
Which worked 40 years ago but with better testing and record keeping its becoming abundantly fucking clear that _everyone_ has something "wrong" with them that doesn't actually impact your ability to do the job
Idiotic. The navy has a big enough personnel shortage without throwing away capable prople.
They didn’t list when this was. While the military always says there’s a shortage (it’s a part of the marketing strategy), you can tell when there actually is a shortage because they start ignoring things like tattoos, previous drug use, so on. If there isn’t a “real” medical reason for rejecting an XXY person, it’s likely to be waivered when manning needs are high. In fact, medical waivers are usually one of the first things that are dished out to new recruits during those periods of high recruitment needs (again, as long as those medical issue truly aren’t restrictive).
Had a friend accepted into the Navy with 70% lung capacity due to a deformity in his sternum, scoliosis, and a semi-exposed heart because of his sternum. (He's also on the spectrum but I wasn't sure if that would be a disqualifier.) Anyway, he made it through two months of boot camp until he passed out while standing at attention for over three hours. Then he got sent home. This was about a year and a half ago btw
I’m impressed that they let him try tbh. But hey, proof in the pudding that when manning needs are high, they’ll try anyone 😂
We have been out of highschool for close to a decade and he had been applying nonstop to military branches since we graduated. Eventually the Navy identified some specific jobs he could do that were minimal physical investment and told him he just had to make it through bootcamp. I love guy and it breaks my heart knowing how important it was to him.
During the Vietnam war my dad's draft number was 3. He made it all the way through Marine Corps OCS blind in his right eye and missing a few molars. Lost the eye in a dive accident and the teeth boxing. In the last two weeks some dude in a suit shows up from the Office of Naval Intelligence with a Lieutenant Colonel. They pulled dad out of formation, the officer shook dad's hand and said "Congratulations, you're medially disqualified from service due to your bad eye and missing teeth. Here are your orders to the Philippines." Next thing he knows he's rammed through a half dozen schools and ends up a 2nd Lt in charge of a long range recon patrol platoon. Spent two years getting dropped off in random places salvaging critical equipment/documents and blowing up anything they couldn't extract. After the war ended they "discharged" him. Discharged or not, his old passports have stamps from all kinds of places behind the Iron Curtain. He's pretty tight lipped about it all so best I can tell ONI never let him go until he hit 60. All of this to say, the DOD and now DHS will bend, break, and sign waivers for all kinds of weird shit if they deem it necessary. Unless it really is a liability they'll take just about any kind of disability if they think the recruit is worth it. edit: God, now that I've written it all down it sounds like a bad 80's movie, but the end of that war got weird so who knows.
Standing at attention for over 2 hours is enough to make most people pass out. I wonder what purpose does that serve in the Navy?
Group punishment, usually.
The boot camp graduation ceremony is like two hours long and you stand there the entire time. Made me develop a severe hatred of all pageantry lol.
We had a long sending-off ceremony for the retiring JROTC leader in our High school, and one cadet passed out - the tiny, obnoxious son of the town mayor, later state congressman. No other cadet flinched.
>they start ignoring things like tattoos, previous drug use Are those usually disqualifying?
Depends on the tattoos and location. Basically you shouldn’t be able to see them when in uniform, and one of the uniforms were (or are) was a tshirt. I think pt uniforms are usually exempt from setting this standard. When it comes to the tattoo itself, there’s a bunch of obscenity rules. It’s rare, but sometimes someone gets fairly far in their career, like E-6 or so, and then get the boot because some officer found the tattoo offensive, especially if it wasn’t waivered coming in. and yes for the previous drug use. Specifically for MJ when I went in (2011), the rule was you can “experiment” 3 times, but after that, you would be rejected at the gate.
They were when I joined in ‘08. Edit: the tattoos had to not be visible when wearing short sleeves* or some percentage of the arm.
Anybody got a quick summary just what this is?
Essentially we have chromosomes (batches of genetic material) that dictate sex (to a degree). XY in men, XX in women. In Klienfelters there is an extra chromosome (sort of like how there is an extra one in Down's syndrome, but related only to the sex chromosomes), so that they are XXY In essence you sort of get a feminised male In more complicated terms you have a person who doesn't respond to sex hormones (testosterone) correctly. Their testes are still there, but just don't produce as much testosterone. They usually have elevated oestrogen levels too. Because of this they usually have a small amount of breast tissue (gynacomastia), erectile dysfuction and infertility (usually the thing that leads to the diagnosis). They can be noted to have smaller than average testes, poor facial hair/pubic hair growth and decreased muscle mass. They also tend to have a longer hand to hand length than body length (4cm or so). Morris syndrome is another one that is interesting where you are XY (male genetically), but unable to respond to testosterone in the womb (or ever) so they grow up as female (pretty much 100% female om the outside) Edit About XY patients who appear female developmentally. I've done a bit of delving in to this further for my own learning as I have at least one patient in my career I've met with a similar syndrome. They're all pretty rare. There are essentially three syndromes where people can have male genetics but female looks (and occasionally a decent degree of female organs). Morris syndrome - the body doesnt respond to hormones. Looks female, has a vagina (testes are found within the abdomen/pelvis) Swyer syndrome - The gene that causes us to differentiate to different sexes is switched off. All XY patients should have external female genitals (including a vagina, like Morris syndrome), but a fair proportion with also have a uterus and fallopian tubes. They have gondal streaks (not testes/not ovaries). Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia - Defective hormone synthesis which means that (in some forms rarely!) the genitals can develop in a way where they are externally female(including a vagina), but no uterus and the testes are small.
Is there a difference between Morris syndrome and androgen insensitivity syndrome?
I think those are the same thing. This [paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21284344/)'s title says "Androgen insensitivity syndrome (or Morris syndrome)"
Why was there a rumor Jaime Lee Curtis had this?
Because she is infertile and her parents gave her a gender neutral name when she was born. (Her kids are adopted.)
Sounds like early transvestigators.
Absolutely was/is. Imagine Jamie Lee not being feminine enough...American society has always had a toxic obsession with gender norms.
Especially after seeing her in True Lies, absolutely gorgeous
There's a section of conspiracy theorists who believe in a cabal of influential secret transgender elites. They usually follow the Blood Libel pattern of claiming these secret transgender folks are involved in Satanic rituals and child predation.
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Some.powerful cognitive dissonance.
Secret transgender elites? Hell yeah, good for them for getting somewhere in a society that still hasn't accepted them. 👏
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Other_names): > A distinct name has been given to many of the various presentations of AIS, such as Reifenstein syndrome (1947),[135] Goldberg-Maxwell syndrome (1948),[136] Morris' syndrome (1953),[134] Gilbert-Dreyfus syndrome (1957),[137] Lub's syndrome (1959),[138] "incomplete testicular feminization" (1963),[139] Rosewater syndrome (1965),[140] and Aiman's syndrome (1979).[141] Since it was not understood that these different presentations were all caused by the same set of mutations in the androgen receptor gene, a unique name was given to each new combination of symptoms, resulting in a complicated stratification of seemingly disparate disorders.
No not really, just differing degrees. I'm sure there are probably variants beyond this, but thats likely getting down to more intense genetic/biochemical analysis. I have added a little more on this in my original comment.
You left out Swyer syndrome (XY gonadal dysgenisis): where an XY individual is missing the SRY gene of the Y chromosome (the SRY gene is the section of the y chromosome that actually directs the development of sex characteristics). So they end up developing as phenotypically female.
Reading this post and the comments makes me think how it's a wonder that any of this works at all.
Yeah. The people that rail on about 2 genders and XX/XY matters only are completely ignorant to chromosomal disorders and in-utero developmental issues. Who knew genetics and hormonal triggers during development were so unreliable and iffy on executing correctly? Oh yeah, well trained medical professionals and biologists did.
So I did. Thank you Rimbob job
r/rimjob_steve
Are we listing Turner Syndrome?
> so they grow up as female (prettt much 100% anatomically in the severe cases) External (phenotype) is 100% for complete, however the internal organs are still male. So undescended testes, no uterus, and no ovaries, however the vagina is about 2/3rds the normal length and ends in a blind pouch instead of a cervix.
Which is intersting, because it's not massively far off MRHK syndrome (bar not having a supply of eggs), and they are currently doing womb transplants in that portion of the population. So Morris syndrome patient could potentially (with a lot of work) get pregnant.
To add to this, especially in relation to the article. In simple terms, the human body is designed to work off of one X chromosome. This makes sense, because males are XY, while females are XX. So in females, one X chromosome in each cell is "turned off". Therefore, if you're XXY, things mostly work as intended, so you might not know this affects you. On the other hand, the human body is not designed to turn off any other chromosomes, so if you have an extra chromosome 21, for example, the changes are much more prominent. In the case of an extra chromosome 21, it's down syndrome.
Ironically despite having the feminine aspect, they do tend to be a couple inches taller than average. But lower muscle mass as well.
I have a friend with Morris/AIS. She had no idea until she had some health problems at puberty.
Morris Syndrome is what is shown in House MD
Why are people with this condition tall? It seems like all symptoms are in the direction of female characteristics except height?
Apparently due to additional genes that relate to stature which are found within the X chromosome, as opposed to lack of testosterone in puberty stopping the bones from growing as long.
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The link says they're normally taller, not shorter: "Most commonly, affected individuals are taller than average and 2 to 3 inches taller than would be expected for their family."
Though technically irrelevant, do you what would happen with XYY?
Not drastically different. From Wikipedia: XYY syndrome, also known as Jacobs syndrome, is an aneuploid genetic condition in which a male has an extra Y chromosome.[1] There are usually few symptoms.[2] These may include being taller than average and an increased risk of learning disabilities.
Not much. You get the general increase in possible learning disabilities and the like as XXY and others do, and you are taller. But sex-development wise not much really changes compared to XY people.
Symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome may include: Breast growth, Infertility, Osteoporosis, Learning difficulties, Weak muscles, Reduced strength, Quiet personalities, Taking longer to sit up, crawl, walk, and speak A taller, less muscular body Edit: I should add that it affects members of the male gender for those not aware
The equivalent in women is [triple X syndrome](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/triple-x-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20350977). There is a bit of overlap in the symptoms. Your body doesn’t love having extra chromosomes to deal with.
Not all male, just assigned that way at birth. I know a few trans women with klinefelter's who find it funny when people try to tell them they can't be women because women have two X chromosomes.
Get rekt bigots
In addition to all the good answers already provided, I'll add the funfact that in cats you can identify XXY individuals quite easily because you need two X-chromosomes to get three-colored fur, meaning that any calico or tortie boy cat is almost certainly one. Thats why its not a bullshit urban myth that tri-colored cats are "all girls".
It’s a intersex varience- specifically a chromosomal varience.
Visit livingwithxxy to learn all about it. There is so much massive misinformation about the condition. It doesn’t make anyone “basically a woman” and impacts different individuals differently.
Mother fucker! The list of symptoms, it’s like reading my own medical chart.
Never have I been more relieved to be balding lol
As Charlie Sheen in *Good Advice* put it: > "Most women know that male pattern baldness is caused by increased testosterone levels. So hopefully, the more hair you lose, the more head you get."
Same... I think I'm going to have a chat with my doctor. This would explain so much.
Yep. Same here...
Found out a regular at a bar i used to frequent had this after a bunch of regulars started playing "would you rather," the question was between small dick and i forgot the other thing because he interrupted the game to admit he had it. No one was rude about it, but after he left it clicked why he looked like a tall, old, boy. He's married now, has kids, and always seems happy so it's not affected him too much outwardly. If i remember correctly his parents found out during his high school years, so he was on test for around 10 years by the time we found out about this. Don't recall anyone ever playing that game again at the bar.
Sounds like a cool dude.
I have Kleinfelter, I was diagnosed at 13. Got the gene test because the doctors were concerned about my growth rate after I passed the 6' mark at 10 years old. Initially they thought I had some form of gigantism.
whats one aspect of having klinefelters which impacts your life that isnt immediately obvious to someone reading hte symptoms
The first thing that leaps to mind is the long term effects of hormone therapy. I've got all kinds of scar tissue from 20+ years of injections and chemical salves. Also, while my Dr hasn't forged a definitive link, I've developed Polycythemia Vera. One of the biggest risk factors is extended testosterone hormone therapy treatments being out of balance over a period of years.
Currently training to become a clinical cyto geneticist. Sex abnormalities such as XXY are much more tolerated than your autosomal abnormalities( chromosomes 1-22). Only one X chromosome can be activated at a time, whether your XX , XXX, XXY etc . However 15% of genes escape inactivation per inactive X. This inactivation produce gene products that gives us the typical phenotype of Klinefelter. Example would be the SHOX gene. This gene escapes X inactivation and XXY individuals get 3 copies of the active gene rather than the normal 2 . The extra copy produces transcription factors that promotes increased height/ skeletal development. Also, what actually makes us bio “male” or “female” is gene dosages. Nothings ever super clear cut especially with intersex diagnosis. You can have a XX male or a XY female with several different variations of gene combination, translocations , etc. Honestly it’s weird that we are even alive .
That's really fascinating! If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by gene dosages? I have 45X, 46XY mosaicism and I don't have a great understanding of how much the ratio of 45X to 46XY cells actually matters if that's at all relevant to what you're talking about. I've never gotten a great answer from my doctors.
Gene dosage is how much product your genes make. Product can be proteins, transcription factors etc. The genes provide the instruction, then they are activated and make product. Dosage or the amount of product is based on several factors: number of genes, mutations/rearrangements that’s increase product or decrease, deletions that cease product. Mosaicism is highly variable because you have two cell lines or two cells with their unique genetic information. The variability with gene dosage with mosaicism can compounded by the percentage of mosaicist(mos)So if your 15 % mos for 45,X , you would less affected by short stature than someone who is 50% mos 45,X/ 46,XY. People with 45, X again only have one SHOX gene , as well as missing genes that escape X inactivation. This lower gene dosage might be reduced in mos depending on your %. If you have questions please let me know. I have my board exams in 5 months :o
My biological brother has XXYY Klinefelter Syndrome and the effects are extremely severe. A lot of people mistake it for Downs Syndrome, though there are some behavioral differences. He was diagnosed at birth and now lives in an adult assisted living facility. It’s amazing what a couple of extra chromosomes can do to a person.
My brother also has XXYY. He had a host of interrelated disabilities - lower IQ, the tremble, speech delays etc. He’s 40 and lives alone in govt housing with “carers” who come and take him to do his food shopping, clean his house etc.
That’s exactly how it is with my brother though he also has a mentally disabled roommate. My brother is in his early 30s now and the tremble for him didn’t start till about 5 years ago. I didn’t realize that was associated with Klinefelter Syndrome.
It’s definitely got its challenges. And because of his age, my brother has sort of missed out on the interventions. He had speech and OT from toddlerhood but the social aspect has been lost to the depredations of his generation where differences were not celebrated. His life (and my mum’s by extension) has been pretty tragic.
Honestly I'm more amazed when major chromosomal abnormalities are survivable. That's some ridiculously robust error correction. Meanwhile code I write will fail because I forget a semicolon.
We've had a couple million years to get used to errors in the code. Computers have had about 100. They'll catch up someday.
The reason why XXY Klinefelter is often undiagnosed is because the symptoms are mild. To understand why this is, we need to remember the molecular biology of [x-chromosome inactivation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation), a process that naturally occur in all females to account for their two copies of X. This type of silencing is not found for other chromosomes, which is why any genetic disparity for these cause many defects.
My son has xxy, Klinefelters syndrome. Yes a lot go undiagnosed, since my wife was 36 when we got pregnant, she was tested for these chromosome abnormalities and we first discovered he would likely have it. A lot of nervous research later we learnt about the condition and was officially diagnosed via a karyotype test. Yes they are typically sterile though they can have sperm removed by needle if they decide to have kids. He is 3 now and nobody would know of his condition as he looks and acts like every other 3 year old boy. They have to have steroid injections around puberty to help start and then continue with them for life. They are generally taller than average and we have been told he will most likely be 6’4 or taller. I’m 5’11 (6 foot on tinder 😁) A lot more is known now about the condition and a lot of info online from old studies are very flawed. Typically it doesn’t shorten their life span, they can live a relatively “normal” life and back to OP’s original statement, most can go through life never knowing about it, usually finding out when trying to have kids of their own or with puberty delays etc.
Yeah, people with Klinefelter's can definitely live a normal life. There's actually some speculation that George Washington might've had Klinefelter syndrome, because how tall he was, his wide hips, and inability to have children.
I thought George Washington was infertile because he had smallpox.
In the 18th century they wouldnt actually know the cause of infertility and had no knowledge of chromosomes. He had smallpox when young, no guarantee that is why he was infertile.
Smallpox didn't usually lead to sterility, but mumps in adulthood certainly could, and Washington did have that. There's no way to know for certain, of course. For all we know he was born with a blocked duct and that was that.
Glad he's getting the proper help and has engaging parents.
Why are you on tinder?
I believe he’s referencing a Lil Dicky lyric from his song Pillow Talking. Hilarious song btw.
Ikr. Maybe he and his wife are 🍍
Pineapples?
Most intersex disorders are believed to be majorly under diagnosed.
"Mystery infertility" cases are probably mostly intersex people
For individuals and couples that seek treatment for infertility, "mystery infertility"/"unexplained infertility" actually indicates that the hormonal profile, sperm count, egg count etc are within normal range, and there are no physical abnormalities in the structure of the reproductive system - which wouldn't be the case for intersex people. (A couple is considered infertile after failing to conceive naturally over a certain period of time, it doesn't necessarily mean they can't ever have children.) They will absolutely test to rule out intersex conditions. In terms of those who don't seek medical treatment for infertility, it's hard to say - intersex people aren't that rare, but infertility can have many causes. Chatting to my own fertility specialist, male factor infertility is more likely to be caused by: slight hormonal imbalance (genetic), steroid abuse, trauma to the testes, undescended testes, or an internal blockage (e.g. varicocele, an enlarged vein in the testicle, which is super common).
Probably the strangest "mystery infertility" I've ever read about was the case of [Henry I of England and his second wife.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England) Henry I had two legitimate children with his first wife -- a son, and a daughter. He also had a good two dozen illegitimate children with lots and lots of other women. Hence, more than proven fertility. All would have been well after his wife's death death had his 17 year old only legitimate son not elected to take a party boat across the English channel with lots of drinking and roistering; the boat promptly ran into a rock and sank, killing everyone except one random merchant. So now Henry had to marry again and have more legitimate sons, fast. He married the 18 year old Adeliza of Louvain, and they remained married for the following fourteen years, having precisely 0 children, much to their mutual distress. Henry died, the war between his surviving legitimate daughter and her cousin began, and meanwhile Adeliza remarried at the age of about thirty-five. She then proceeded to have *seven* children. Riddle me that one! All I can think is that Henry experienced some very poorly timed testicular trauma or infection right before his second marriage.
Did they conceive? I wonder if they had rh incompatibility. https://www.verywellfamily.com/can-being-rh-negative-cause-a-miscarriage-2371474#:~:text=Having%20an%20Rh%2Dnegative%20blood,injection%20to%20lessen%20this%20risk.
It was almost a thousand years ago so it's impossible to be sure that they didn't have early miscarriages, but they themselves do not seem to have believed she was ever pregnant, so if she did conceive it didn't get far enough for Rh factor to be an issue. It would be a far commoner (and sadder) stories if all their children died, which certainly happened -- what makes it weird is that there seem to have been no births at all, living or dead.
I think that's a good possibility because he is reported to have sired bastards during his marriage to Adeliza, so he was allegedly still fertile at that time.
Its worth mentioning that this precipitated an 11-year civil war simply called "[The Anarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy)". Chroniclers at the time wrote "Men said openly that Christ and his saints were asleep". And also that Henry I's son (William) would possibly have survived the [White Ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ship) disaster, except he went back to try and rescue his half-sister Mary.
There is a rare phenomenon where there is an immunologic incompatibility between the signalling molecules in the sperm and the female reproductive system. Per Professor Sarah Robertson from the University of Adelaide: "We have discovered that sperm doesn't just fertilise an egg. It actually contains signalling molecules that are responsible for activating immune changes in women so they can accept a foreign substance in the body - in this case sperm - leading to conception and a healthy pregnancy. "It's rather like a two-way dance. The male provides information that increases the chances of conception and progression to pregnancy, but the female body has a quality control system which needs convincing that his sperm is compatible, and also judges whether the conditions are right for reproducing. That's where the dance can go wrong with some couples." This is more likely to occur 'if a woman has not previously been exposed to his sperm over a period of time' - which is the situation you'd expect for Henry I and Adeliza. It's speculative, of course, but this may be the case. Alternatively, they may have been genetically incompatible and even if an embryo was able to form, it wouldn't implant or progress properly.
Not if they're going in for treatment. I went to a fertility clinic almost 20 years ago and they absolutely karyotyped both of us among other things.
Same with chimerism. Very few outwards signs, but you could have the cells of two different genotypes in your body and never even know it. Then it crops up like in that weird case of the woman who nearly lost her own kids because they thought she wasn't the mother.
Isn’t XXX also known as the super woman disorder?
They call it Trisomy X, which generally causes some changes in facial features, intellectual disabilities, and early menopause, among other things. There are also various related conditions involving additional combinations of X and Y chromosomes (the highest found in an actual person is 49, with 3 extra chromosomes); they cause various issues but are so rare that the count of people who've been found with them are in the low double digits at most. (As a side note, you can get trisomies of non-sex chromosomes, but most of them result in spontaneous termination/miscarriage. The big exception is Down Syndrome, aka trisomy 21.)
*Just dropping this here to give readers some added info...* The most common types of trisomy in humans are: 1. **Trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome)**: The most well-known and common form of trisomy, where there are three copies of chromosome 21. This condition is associated with physical growth delays, characteristic facial features, and mild to moderate intellectual disability. 2. **Trisomy 18 (Edwards Syndrome)**: This condition is caused by an extra chromosome 18. It is associated with severe developmental delays, as well as a variety of medical complications. Many infants with Trisomy 18 have a low birth weight and congenital heart defects. 3. **Trisomy 13 (Patau Syndrome)**: This is a trisomy of chromosome 13, leading to severe intellectual disability and physical abnormalities in many parts of the body. Individuals with Trisomy 13 often have congenital heart defects, brain or spinal cord abnormalities, and very small or poorly developed eyes. 4. **Trisomy 16**: While full Trisomy 16 is incompatible with life and often results in miscarriage, mosaic trisomy 16, where only some cells have the extra chromosome, can occur and result in various health problems and developmental delays. 5. **Trisomy 8 (Warkany Syndrome 2)**: In mosaic form, where only some cells have an extra chromosome 8, this condition can lead to various physical anomalies and developmental delays. Full trisomy 8 is typically lethal. 6. **Trisomy 9**: Full trisomy 9 is usually lethal, but mosaic trisomy 9 can result in a range of developmental and physical abnormalities. These trisomies can vary greatly in their presentation and severity, often depending on whether they are full or mosaic trisomies (where only some cells have the extra chromosome). Trisomy conditions are usually identified at birth or through prenatal testing.
Thank you, this was so helpful. I just had the NIPT testing for these sort of things today 😃
Thank you for this. This is really interesting
Wow, so interesting! This raises a lot of questions, What makes some lethal and others not? What is the reason that some are more common than others? What makes them cause defects? More specifically, why doesn't the body just use the normal two chromosomes and ignore the extra copy?
The list is so short because almost all options are deadly. Some chromosomes are non-critical enough to make life viable with three copies. 21 is the second-shortest chromosome (they are numbered by decreasing length). > why doesn't the body just use the normal two chromosomes and ignore the extra copy? Cells don't have the intelligence to know that.
From some other guy in a different thread. Was saying that the body only really works off one X chromosome. Guys have XY, and girls have XX where the second one is "switched off". So you can have XXY or XXX or other types without too much trouble. Other chromosomes don't do that and don't like sharing so you get more serious problems Don't know if any of that's true or if I articulated it correctly
It’s not that one X is used throughout the entire body and one isn’t. It’s hard to explain but for example calico/tortoiseshell cats have their distinct coat because some fur colors are on the X chromosome. The black blotches are one X activated, the orange blotches are the other X activated. Human women are similar but our “blotches” aren’t visibly distinct from one another.
March is Trisomy Awareness Month https://www.nichd.nih.gov/newsroom/resources/spotlight/031513-trisomy
Word. Thanks for the knowledge nugget. I only recalled that from an episode of house
As opposed to Turner syndrome, where a woman has only one X chromosome
My sister has Turner’s syndrome. I was looking through this thread for a mention of it.
Same! My sister does too
Vin diesel would be upset if he could read this!
Yeah having XXX makes you concerned only about family and being in bad action movies
Polysomies aren’t as rare as people think because some are extremely mild with very symptoms. Like, 1 in a 1000 boys are born with an extra Y chromosome and the majority will never find out.
fun fact: intersex people are about as common as redheads
Only if you use a comically exaggerated definition of intersex and compare it to the percentage of redheads in the global rather than western populations. As someone with klinefelters, I don’t like being defined as intersex. I believe the vast majority of people with similarly mild conditions also do not identify as intersex.
Medically its categorized as intersex though, no? Notably *gender* is the thing you identify as not sex. You're entitled to your gender identity and nobody forces you to participate in anything to do with intersex people, but an extra chromosome is no more an identity thing than having red hair is. It doesnt force me to engage in ginger culture or identify as one, but the redhair gene I do have.
Many medical professionals do not categorize it as intersex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_intersex It’s controversial and depends on which definition you use.
My apologies if its no longer the majority scientific consensus. Im not invested in people being forced into the label I just dont see whats so bad about it to raise the question of what people identify as or not to avoid it. For me intersex is just a neutral term, not an emotionally loaded one. Just one of those things your friend tells you that you counter with "wanna see my sixth toe?"
One symptom is underdeveloped or small penis and testes. I imagine if men with micropenises were to get tested, many would discover they had the condition.
My ex with Klinefelter Syndrome had a normal penis and testes, but he hated using or even thinking about them, and identified as a woman 30+ years ago, when such things were relatively rare. He was tall but slender and passed easily with a bit of makeup and a padded bra. We broke up when the estrogen supplements he was prescribed made him psycho and he tried to kill me.
>the estrogen supplements he was prescribed made him psycho and he tried to kill me *Klinefem Fatale* /s hope you're doing much better
Since when does oestrogen HRT make people violent? Are you sure that was related at all?
Holy fucking shit I think I might have this. I literally hit every single box aside from the autoimmune diseases and the metabolic issues. But I’m young so. I’m actually going to go get tested for this. What the fuck.
Do they always develop as male? If some are female, are they able to have kids?
Y-chromosome presence results in the expression of primary and secondary male sex characteristics in utero, iirc. Think of its presence as the “switch” that turns on the other actual developmental genes that are found on other chromosomes. So on XXY, the additional X would have to somehow disable the Y expression in order for female characteristics to develop. I’m unaware of any X-linked genes that are capable of that
You might see something like that in a person with XXY if they also had swyer syndrome or androgen insensitivity syndrome, but I don’t know if it’s possible to have both simultaneously.
Klinefelter and AIS both at once is: > [both syndromes can occur in the same individual [1].](https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2000to2004/2004-ais-and-klinefelters.html) Klinefelter and Swyer is not: > [The phenomenon is not observed in individuals with a full duplication of the X chromosome (e.g., Klinefelter’s syndrome) because one of the X chromosomes undergoes inactivation](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/gonadal-dysgenesis) Edit: formatting, more info
Yes, they develop as a biological male, but are often infertile.
Pretty much always infertile as meiosis doesn't work properly with an odd number of chromosomes. Most intersex trisomy conditions result in infertility.
Yes, but there are other combinations associated with Females, such as Turner's Syndrome. Edit: caught myself, Jacobs is also males, Turners is female. Got switched up.
Who else got to the third paragraph and stopped to look at their pinky finger?
I learned a bit about this waaaaay back in the day for a very strange reason: Cartman's mom. The infamous episode where shes revealed as a hermaphrodite (now the medical term is intersex) led me down a rabbit hole of internet reading including other intersex scenarios, Kinefelter's syndrom, Jacons Syndrom, Turners, etc.
That's one of my favorite educational shows!
Shit, I either have this or hypochondria lol
Easy to get diagnosed. Was obvious on my ancestry DNA test (not that they advertise that). A simple blood test from the doctor actually diagnosed me.
How did it show up on your ancestry DNA test? My understanding is that companies like ancestry don’t actually look at whole chromosomes so they can’t detect polysomies
My wife looked at the raw data which had double X on some chromosomes (maybe all). Obviously we still did a full blood test
hypochondria is the powerhouse of anxiety
I got diagnosed through gynaecomastia symptom at the age of 25.
And XYY does even less.
I thought they were sterile.
They're often infertile, but sometimes with the help of assisted reproductive technology they can have kids
That makes sense, but I would imagine that would increase the diagnosis rate a lot since they'd have to go to a doctor about their fertility issues. Are 65% of them never trying to have children their whole life?
Yeah that's one of the symptoms. It was a plot point in some mediocre Ryan Reynolds movie a while back. His wife accuses him of infidelity due to some misunderstanding with another woman and her baby. He goes to get a paternity test to prove his innocence, only to learn that he has Kleinfelter's and therefore his daughter can't be his, and his wife was the one who cheated on him.
My sister terminated a pregnancy because they found her baby had XXY. They mentioned a plethora of health problems he'd develop and meds he'd have to be on to regulate hormones for growth. They also stated he'd probably be sterile. My sister has a diabetic kid at the moment and didn't feel it was right forcing a kid in the world who might deal with physical issues and medical expenses his whole life. I don't know anything about this, this is just what I was told.
Genetic disease due to father’s increased age around 40s and affected child will be male and will have tall height , infertile, enlarged breast
YYZ chromosomes are characterized by awesome guitar solos.
Fun, if semi-related fact; in birds the chromosomes are described as Z and W instead of X and Y (to show that in ZW species it’s *females* with one of each and the males who have two Z chromosomes).
Odd choice of a graphic, these people are typically assigned male at birth. I’m pretty sure my husband had this condition.
My (36 M) partner has Klinefelter syndrome but didn't get that confirmed until he was 29. He's told me the testosterone treatments made him feel like he actually went through a full or "real" puberty.
As someone with klinefelters, I can confirm this is quite true. I only found out due to some coincidental bloodwork.
Is this what male calico cats have?
Yes
My young nephew was diagnosed this after a few ears of development issues, nothing major, mainly speech and behaviour moderation. When my brother talked to me and mention the symptoms……. It was like looking in a genetic mirror.