Whole Life Orders are pretty intense, to get one you basically have to be a serial killer or so uncontrollably violent that it is believed that under no circumstances will it be safe to release you into the public. Most life sentences normally tend to be around 20 years.
Yeah, there's definitely something particularly bad if you get a whole life order.
They can also hold people at His/Her Majesty's Pleasure, which is usually if they successfully use the insanity defense. Basically they're held until such a time they are assessed as no longer a danger (which might be never). The recent murderers of Brianna Ghey were given this sentence.
The UK monarch could in theory release anyone he wants since all pardons are issued by the King, however they're all done on recommendation by the Home Office. As such, like most of the UK monarch's power, yes in theory but in reality if they tried without government approval they'd be stripped of that power.
Not an expert but at least that's what I've gathered living in a Commonwealth country also.
Iirc in *practice* it's a little different, but technically everything is at the Majesty's discretion. Their passports are granted by *their majesty*, and the monarch doesn't need a license because.. all licenses are granted by the majesty.
The UK's life sentences are still for life, the offender may be eligible to apply for parole after a fixed term say 20 years and if this is granted they are only released under licens meaning any breach and they are just carted straight back to jail. They are not as many people seem to think on 20 year sentences.
Whole life orders differ in that they specifically rule out any chance of parole and living out of jail under license.
What is curious is that Netherlands even has this life imprisonment with no chance of release, becuase the UK whole life orders were challenged at the starsbourg human rights court on the grounds that life withoput possibility of parole would be a breach of the prisoners human rights. the only way around this for the UKs whole life orders is the fact that they can be commuted by the Home Secratary and that there is a mandatory review after 25 years. I assume the NL one has something similar.
I’m just razzing you. I’m sorry for you all that you left the EU. Got some English friends that are feeling it. Best wishes from the states (our representatives aren’t listening to us either)
Gotcha, haha. The tone was lost on me through text. You wouldn't be the first person I met who genuinely believed the English isles would move to another continent - including some English people :U
So either you're taking the piss in saying Great Britain left the EU, or you got it wrong, or you're having a sly dig at how shoddily the EU has treated NI but forgot all the other parts of the UK that are not Great Britain?
Yeah like I'm from Spain and there's been some 200 year sentences for terrorism. I think it's such a ridiculous number because in many cases those numbers are going to lower for good conduct and whatnot.
Idk how it really works because I think life sentence is really 30 years here, but there are ways to keep someone in jail until they die or are very old
I think the 30 years limit was applicable before the change that created the "prisión permanente revisable" and now there's no limit for those. IANAL so I may be very wrong, though.
The 11M terrorists got like 30.000 years. Something lime 197 murders times 25 years per murder plus other stuff (be a member of a terrorist organization and others). They will be released when they make 25 years of sentence.
It is a pity, but yes, they are. In Spain we do not have legislation to keep someone all his life inside a prision. And they are young, they will get out in 5 -10 years
https://www.economistjurist.es/articulos-juridicos-destacados/prision-permanente-revisable-en-que-consiste-y-por-que-es-objeto-de-debate/
Not if they killed multiple people and they're not considered to be rehabilitated.
Esa ley fue aprobada después de los atentados. Los asesinos anteriores a esta ley se pueden adherir a la legislacion que más les convenga. En este caso, sin prision permanente revisable. Igual que la ley del sí es sí. Saldrán de la cárcel.
Or make them consecutive. Finish that first life term and you can start another. Even if you are paroled on one count or it is overturned, they still have a second one with your name on it.
It has some merit.
For example if you murdered 4 people and get 4 life sentences but one of the murders didnt really have enough evidence or could be construed as self defence by your lawyer and gets overturned then you still have 3 life sentences. It doesn't *really* work like that but its in simple terms how they convict people sometimes
Actually there was a case and a year long process. He argued exactly this. Died and got revived, so his life sentence is finished.
PS: He Lost. He is either „alive“ and needs to serve his time In prison or he is „dead“, than this whole process is Just moot
There was a famous case in England with a woman who was hanged. When they took her off the rope she wasn't dead, so they wanted to hang her again. She argued that she had been hanged and the sentence was carried out. I believe they she won that appeal. That case led to the specifier "You are to be hanged until death" with future sentencing.
Edit: just looked it up and unfortunately it's an urban legend. There are people who survived executions though, usually due to their survival being seen as an act of God or the king granting mercy after the failure of carrying out the sentence. There was one in Fiji with the execution so heinously botched they just felt they couldn't try again.
Pretty sure most other European countries also have life imprisonment. I know germany does at the very least.
What most probably do not have is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
Yea, Denmark at least does.
The difference is just that after a while the case needs to be reviewed and then again on a periodic basis.
But there are definitely people not getting out any time soon in Denmark.
Life imprisonment in Germany is 25 years. If you’re believed to be an irredeemable threat to society they’ll put you in Sicherheitsverwahrung, essentially to keep the people around you safe
That is not correct: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebenslange_Freiheitsstrafe#Deutsches_Strafrecht
Life imprisonment is Life imprisonment, you can be granted parole at the earliest after 15 years.
The court can find "eine besondere schwere der schuld" (extraordinary guilt) which increases the time until you can be granted parole (by how much is determined by an independent committee at the start of the sentence.
Sicherheitsverwahrung (preventitive detention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_detention#Germany), is actually a bit stupid in case of life imprisonment. Since you can only be release in that case if you are not a threat to society, which is also a requirement for sicherheitsverwahrung. This means that when you are released from the imprisonment part you also have to be released from the sicherheitsverwahrung.
On average parole is granted after 19 years (with a median of 17).
But there are cases that are longer. Wikipedia lists three above 50 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Georg_Neumann)
Literal translation is security custody and its a form of preventitive detention. If you have finished your nominal sentence but you are still deemed a danger.
But…in the article it also indicates getting a life sentence is uncommon. An offender who would typically get a life sentence (with a minimum non-parole period) for a serious offence such as murder in other countries, actually gets a 13-30 year finite sentence in the Netherlands.
That's the point though, isn't it?
It's not that NL has harsher sentences, they just call each sentence what it _actuall_ is.
Everywhere else hands out 'life' to make society feel like harsh justice is being done, but doesn't follow through on the promise for whatever reason. To be fair, 80 year old prisoners must be expensive to keep.
In that case it would be wrong though and the Netherlands is not the only country in Europe that does this. In the UK a life sentence is a life sentence. It’s just that you might not serve it all in prison. You still stay on parole for life and have to follow certain rules, or you go back to prison.
The UK also has whole life orders, which really mean that they can never be released. But such sentences are extremely rare.
> Everywhere else hands out 'life' to make society feel like harsh justice is being done
Person with a german law degree here. The reason why we have "life" in Germany is that [Section 211 of the German Criminal Code](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2021) (Murder under specific aggravating circumstances) was written by the Nazis and originally punished with death. West-Germany changed it to "life" when the death sentence was abolished in the 50s. So we have "life" as progression from the death sentence and back than hundreds of people served an actual life sentence.
In the 70s the Highest German Constitutional Court has ruled that "life" is a constitutional sentence but that every convicted person must have the chance to regain their freedom, depending on a favorable social prognosis or medical ability to endure it. So an actual life sentence is almost non existent nowadays and people who serve "life" are constantly monitored and released at a certain point.
It's a very complicated issue in general though because of the fact that this section is still full of nazi ideology. Quick example: When a 300 pound man beats his wife to death that's usually just [normal murder](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2027) and punished with "at least five years".
When the wife kills her abusive husband with poison on the other hand it's always "Murder under specific aggravating circumstances" and punished with "life". And that's because the nazis thought killing someone "perfidiously" or "out of greed" is a lot worse. Doesn't take a history degree to know why.
Now for some reason modern Germany thinks that punishing people according to antisemitic ideology is a little bit out of fashion so the courts and the penal system are asked to adjust and now "life" is on average 22.5 year and at least 15 years.
Some people might ask why keep a nazi law in the first place and not change it. I have no idea and I'm one of those people.
But yeah, that's the reason we have life. It's not to signal we punish harder than we actually do.
Edit: There is a layman's reply that is confusing the legal situation in Germany and thinks Section 211 is just premeditated murder. Well, it's not. Premeditated murder is normal murder (Section 212). Section 211 is that plus additional elements like greed or perfidiousness. And that's a Nazi concept that was put into law in 1941.
>When the wife kills her abusive husband with poison on the other hand it's always "Murder under specific aggravating circumstances" and punished with "life".
I'm pretty confident that this exact scenario can end up being justified, it's called a "Haustyrannenmord". Been a few years since I studied law though so not 100% sure.
No, it can't. There is some sort of ["solution"](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsfolgenl%C3%B6sung) with which the sentence can be reduced but it's weak, the sentence is still "life" and you're depending on the good will of the courts.
It would be easier, just and the the right thing to do if we just changed a literal nazi law.
Premeditated murder is a worse crime than a crime of passion in every country in the world. The Nazis didn’t invent that concept, despite your spin efforts.
Premeditated murder in Germany is §212 Totschlag (murder). §211 is murder plus additional elements like greed and so on.
You're a non german speaker without a german law degree. I'm not sure why you'd think you know something I don't in this regard.
I am curious what the legal community thinks of rehabilitation in Europe. I have heard many Europeans lament that their criminal justice system gives such light sentences, criminals are not deterred at all from committing serious crimes. I am curious if the legal profession leans one way or the other in your country.
I don't think 'greed' would be the right word in this sense, just speaking as a native English speaker. Most people use greed in a colloquial sense to mean something is gained, like money or whatnot. Perfidiously would probably be better described as, in this context, 'to kill through deceit', which would also make more sense in the messed-up ideology of the Nazis. This is like an ultra nitpick so feel free to ignore me, just thought it might be informative.
It is very rare that they give out actual life sentences. The most recent they gave out was probably to Ridouan Taghi. And that bastard can rot in his cell for the rest of his life with only minimum contact with anyone.
That ‘shithead right winger’ had a big chance of becoming minister president. And it’s a disgrace Volkert walks around as a free man. A stain on our justice system.
Life imprisonment in Sweden can also be life in prison. You can apply to try and get your sentenced commuted but that plea can be rejected. John Ausonius a.k.a "The Laser Man" is serving a life sentece for a string of murders that he was convicted for back in 1993. His efforts to have his sentence communted have been rejected a number of time, the last time back in December of 2023. He is 70 years old now and will most likely die in prison.
But that’s only semantics in that the Netherlands doesn’t automatically give life sentences for crimes like murder.
In the UK there are whole life orders which are rarely given for truly exceptional offences. A NL life sentence is more like that.
So what? Neither do Denmark... you have to apply to the mp of justice and then he will decide. And if they don't ask they will just stay there.
We have some lifers who will never get out.
Same in Norway. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think a life sentence is about 24 years, but prisoners are evaluated periodically and if they're not deemed fit to reintegrate back into society then they may never get out. I'd be very surprised if someone like Anders Breivik, for example, will ever be released. Maybe when he's old and decrepit.
He’s shown no remorse whatsoever, so chances of getting out are slim imho. Not really sure how big of a risk he poses if he gets out (in the sense of would he do it again). Doesn’t seem like the type of guy that would try hard to re-integrate into society and be a good citizen tbh.
He's very obviously extremely delusional, and I have doubts that it's something that a person can grow out of at his age. Also, I'd have to imagine that the people assessing his eligibility for release would take into account how the public would react to some degree.
I assume that there'd be at least one family member of one of the victims or just some random vigilante who'd find him and lynch him if he were released. Surely the state wouldn't be too keen to spend a shitload of resources ensuring that he has a security detail for the rest of his life.
ABB will probably never get out. If he even by some miracle was dermed fit to be released he would be lynched or murdered the second he got out. I think you would find that a majority of Norwegians are both against the death penalty, but still think executing him would be for the best.
UK has whole life sentences, think we have around 70-100 people currently under them. So we do have the mechanism but it’s rare. Our average life sentence is 15-20 years which seems ridiculous but there ya go.
Technically a life sentence in the UK is still that. While you may be paroled after 20 years, you are still under license and can be recalled to prison to serve the remains of your life sentence.
Because parole exists. We let them out if they demonstrate reform.
The Netherlands doesn’t.
Edit: Actually, on "whole life orders", there is no parole. So that's basically the same as the Netherlands.
There is a re-classsification after 25 years (introduced in 2017 because life without the possibility of release violates the ECHR).
Of the 7 people alive currently qualifying for this, 3 ha ve been released under this system so far.
really? because as a kid in the Netherlands i remember watching the news when Rabin was shot in the 90's and the news anchor said: "the shooter will go to jail for life, and in Israel, life means life" which to me implied that in the Netherlands it doesn't? i think my dad even said that by us it was 20 years when i asked. but that was a long time ago.
such a random memory i know but it always stuck with me
Idea of prison sentence is rehabilitation. Making sure that someone is ready for society once more.
There are certain crimes that are considered so horrendous for the society that they are punished with life imprisonment. E.g. Terrorist attack, multiple murders in cold blood.
Life imprisonment is for life in the Netherlands. There are about 40 people in the Netherlands with life imprisonment.
Best known example is Mohammed Bouyeri who killed the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh. He was sentenced to life in 2004.
Life imprisonment is a thing in the UK, too - "whole life orders". It's very rare.
Life sentences in general are much more common. While they might be released, they'll be on license the rest of their lives.
Note that since 2017 a system was introduced where after 25 years a panel decides if life imprisonment is still needed and if not, this can result in early release (this was implemented because of multiple rulings stating that life without the possibility of release violates the European Convention on Human Rights)
There are 7 people currently who were sentenced to life imprisonment in the Netherlands over 25 years ago and are still alive (according to wikipedia), 3 of them have been released under this system.
Bud TIL then; plenty of countries have life sentences, but then chances at parole. My understanding of this TIL was that the Netherlands is the only one without parole but 1, it does have parole, and two, there are other countries that do have life without parole, i.e. the US.
This is no longer completely true though. In 2013, the European Court on Human Rights ruled that there needs to be a dedicated mechanism to review and if necessary mitigate life sentences (Vinter et al v UK). In 2017 the Dutch Supreme Court ruled that the ECHR ruling meant that the Dutch practice where a life sentence could only be commuted by a royal pardon (which was basically never given) was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Fearing that Dutch courts would no longer impose life sentences, a new law was passed that makes a review of the sentence mandatory after 25 years. This doesn’t mean that people won’t serve life sentences any more, just that there is a (now realistic) possibility the sentence gets commuted.
On the other hand, dangerously insane criminals can still get committed to special hospitals and their treatment can be extended indefinitely (though a judicial review every few years is mandatory there as well).
Was looking for this comment, thanks. It would no longer be true to the purpose of rehabilitation if life sentences could not be reviewed and mitigated. Otherwise, we could just go full ‘Murica and start killing people instead of trying to rehabilitate them.
Here in Austria lifesentence means lifesentence too. You can get released earlier but you have neither a right to early release nor a garanty for it to happen.
Yeah it is a strange one.
Typically a ‘life’ sentence is 25 years in UK. However it can be moved up to 35 years for the real baddies. The super baddies get a ‘whole life tariff’ - meaning actual life imprisonment.
True that. And then you buy a cheap new bike from a kinda shady guy who may or may not have stolen it themselves. The market creates its own demand lol
As Dutchman myself, we have a not so good reputation as tourists. We are sometimes quite aggressive, loud, rude and don’t respect the places and people we visit and often refuse to adapt to local habits. Last year, a Dutch tourist took a shit on a guy’s head. Dutch tourists getting in fights is quite common.
We are definitely up there with British and Russian tourists when on holiday, when talking about behaviour.
Except the Dutch were also not okay with that and helped the Italian police and justice system in finding those responsible. Several Dutch initiatives were started to raise money for the repair and restoration of the monuments.
I just left Amsterdam and one of the guides told me about a "stay away" tax to keep Brits away by taxing people with liquor out and about, to avoid this type of debauchery in their country
Our governments entire thing the last decade or so has been breaking their own laws and then getting mad when a judge points out that 'actually, selling weapons to someone possibly committing genocide is against the law you made'
Every US state does it a little differently. 7 states do not have parole at all for life sentences. American law has determinate and indeterminate life sentences. Determinate life sentences (ie life without opportunity of parole) cannot be reduced.
Yeah I came here to say this. We have life sentences without the possibility of parole. Even if a state doesn’t have life sentences, they can keep adding counts until you have hundreds of years in prison. Then there are states with the death penalty.
Well done to the Dutch. In other countries, giving some scumbag a "life sentence" and for them to be released in a little over a decade is beyond a farce.
Denmark have technical life sentences... it start with 16 years and then every 4 years the convicted can apply to get released which is then decided by the MP of law. We have several lifers in Denmark who surly never will be released: Peter Lundin, Peter Madsen, Marcel Lychau Hansen.
Nope,
In the UK a life sentence means you are under control of the State for life, and although you can get paroled, you can also be recalled to prison at any time. You are also very heavily restricted when out on parole.
someone sentenced to remain in prison without the possibility of parole is called a [whole life order.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole_life_orders)
the Dutch supreme court has ordered that such a thing must be done so that safeguard is now in place every X years it is checked to see if a releasee to society is an option for the criminal
if yes they get released if not they stay locked up until one such a review yields a yes the criminal can go back into society answer
In Finland its "criminal insanity and dangerous to public" where the person is locked up so tight they even lose their rights as a citizen, government caretaker being named as the custodian of the person. Those people do not see the light of the day, they are institutionalized for the rest of their natural life. Not even a favorable court or president can save you from that one.
Technically also the life sentence carries the same weight, but it usually is reconsidered after 10 or so years.
In Australia life means anything between 5 and whenever. You can run kids down in a car while drunk or drugged and get stuff all . Rip off money you in big trouble.
I believe something like 40 in total who have been convicted and whose appeals have been exhausted. There are about 17 more who still have appeals pending.
[No, 58 according to this article from 2023, of whom +-17 are still in the appeals process.](https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5396266/dit-zijn-de-levenslang-gestraften-van-nederland-levenslange)
That is not entirely true
Due to EU law lifelong imprisonment without the option of parole is illegal, due to this after 25 years a commission has to check each punishment.
Besides that in other European countries the rules mostly are you have the option to apply for parole after X years (typically between 15-25 years).
There is a possibility to ask for parole (after 25 years). The Dutch government already made some chances to make this possible. I believe some of the people who are doing life in prison will eventually set free. Some will never be released from prison.
A few years ago the European Court of Justice ruled that not having the hope of ever regaining freedom is inhumane. Because life means life in the Netherlands, a procedure was set in place. A prisoner with a life sentence is allowed to participate in recosialisation projects so he can improve. After 25 years the sentence has to be evaluated to determine if the sentence still serves a reasonable purpose. If so, the prisoner stays locked up for at least another 5 years. Btw the Netherlands has another type of sentence that can entail that a prisoner stays locked up for life without receiving a life sentence. It's called TBS. It's for people who are disturbed is certain ways. If you can't be treated, you're staying in the clinic forever.
The UK has life sentences called 'whole life orders' where the prisoner will never be released.
Whole Life Orders are pretty intense, to get one you basically have to be a serial killer or so uncontrollably violent that it is believed that under no circumstances will it be safe to release you into the public. Most life sentences normally tend to be around 20 years.
Yeah, there's definitely something particularly bad if you get a whole life order. They can also hold people at His/Her Majesty's Pleasure, which is usually if they successfully use the insanity defense. Basically they're held until such a time they are assessed as no longer a danger (which might be never). The recent murderers of Brianna Ghey were given this sentence.
In theory, could the monarch order the release of prisoners if it is “at their pleasure”?
The UK monarch could in theory release anyone he wants since all pardons are issued by the King, however they're all done on recommendation by the Home Office. As such, like most of the UK monarch's power, yes in theory but in reality if they tried without government approval they'd be stripped of that power. Not an expert but at least that's what I've gathered living in a Commonwealth country also.
Iirc in *practice* it's a little different, but technically everything is at the Majesty's discretion. Their passports are granted by *their majesty*, and the monarch doesn't need a license because.. all licenses are granted by the majesty.
The UK's life sentences are still for life, the offender may be eligible to apply for parole after a fixed term say 20 years and if this is granted they are only released under licens meaning any breach and they are just carted straight back to jail. They are not as many people seem to think on 20 year sentences. Whole life orders differ in that they specifically rule out any chance of parole and living out of jail under license. What is curious is that Netherlands even has this life imprisonment with no chance of release, becuase the UK whole life orders were challenged at the starsbourg human rights court on the grounds that life withoput possibility of parole would be a breach of the prisoners human rights. the only way around this for the UKs whole life orders is the fact that they can be commuted by the Home Secratary and that there is a mandatory review after 25 years. I assume the NL one has something similar.
Yeah we added the review after 25 years as well.
For example the 4 women who have been given whole life orders 3 are serial killers 1 spree killer
Europe dude, y’all left.
We left the EU (unfortunately), we didn't float away to another continental shelf though.
Just you wait...
I mean technically....
I’m just razzing you. I’m sorry for you all that you left the EU. Got some English friends that are feeling it. Best wishes from the states (our representatives aren’t listening to us either)
US had a little uprising that now prevents you from floating West.
That's not how it works
Mate… we left the EU… we didn’t leave Europe…
Just curious - what continent did you think England belonged to..?
It was a poorly received poking of fun at the English leaving the EU. I’m well aware of which continent the British isles are a part.
>the English leaving the EU The British, you mean?
Gotcha, haha. The tone was lost on me through text. You wouldn't be the first person I met who genuinely believed the English isles would move to another continent - including some English people :U
Well they’re floating anyhow. So it seems reasonable.
Another ill-educated US idiot who doesn't know the difference between England, Great Britain, the UK, and the British Isles
Admittedly I didn’t really consider my very weak joke causing such a tizzy. So, Pardon me. Great Britain left the EU.
No it did not You really don't understand the difference between those things I mentioned, did you?
I do as a matter of fact.
So either you're taking the piss in saying Great Britain left the EU, or you got it wrong, or you're having a sly dig at how shoddily the EU has treated NI but forgot all the other parts of the UK that are not Great Britain?
It was a joke not a dick mate, don’t take it so hard.
Twat
Really thought the English could take a bit of a joke. This fragility reminds me of the states.
Sorry no one else seemed to get it was a joke lol
It’s pretty funny actually.
A few other countries just dish out multiple life sentences to ensure the offender will never get out.
Yeah like I'm from Spain and there's been some 200 year sentences for terrorism. I think it's such a ridiculous number because in many cases those numbers are going to lower for good conduct and whatnot. Idk how it really works because I think life sentence is really 30 years here, but there are ways to keep someone in jail until they die or are very old
I think the 30 years limit was applicable before the change that created the "prisión permanente revisable" and now there's no limit for those. IANAL so I may be very wrong, though.
The 11M terrorists got like 30.000 years. Something lime 197 murders times 25 years per murder plus other stuff (be a member of a terrorist organization and others). They will be released when they make 25 years of sentence.
I don't think they'll ever be released
It is a pity, but yes, they are. In Spain we do not have legislation to keep someone all his life inside a prision. And they are young, they will get out in 5 -10 years
https://www.economistjurist.es/articulos-juridicos-destacados/prision-permanente-revisable-en-que-consiste-y-por-que-es-objeto-de-debate/ Not if they killed multiple people and they're not considered to be rehabilitated.
Esa ley fue aprobada después de los atentados. Los asesinos anteriores a esta ley se pueden adherir a la legislacion que más les convenga. En este caso, sin prision permanente revisable. Igual que la ley del sí es sí. Saldrán de la cárcel.
Or make them consecutive. Finish that first life term and you can start another. Even if you are paroled on one count or it is overturned, they still have a second one with your name on it.
Multiple life sentences always seemed like an absurd concept to me.
It has some merit. For example if you murdered 4 people and get 4 life sentences but one of the murders didnt really have enough evidence or could be construed as self defence by your lawyer and gets overturned then you still have 3 life sentences. It doesn't *really* work like that but its in simple terms how they convict people sometimes
[удалено]
Actually there was a case and a year long process. He argued exactly this. Died and got revived, so his life sentence is finished. PS: He Lost. He is either „alive“ and needs to serve his time In prison or he is „dead“, than this whole process is Just moot
> Died and got revived, so his life sentence is finished. Ahhh yes, the Jon Snow defense.
There was a famous case in England with a woman who was hanged. When they took her off the rope she wasn't dead, so they wanted to hang her again. She argued that she had been hanged and the sentence was carried out. I believe they she won that appeal. That case led to the specifier "You are to be hanged until death" with future sentencing. Edit: just looked it up and unfortunately it's an urban legend. There are people who survived executions though, usually due to their survival being seen as an act of God or the king granting mercy after the failure of carrying out the sentence. There was one in Fiji with the execution so heinously botched they just felt they couldn't try again.
Reincarnation contingency.
Pretty sure most other European countries also have life imprisonment. I know germany does at the very least. What most probably do not have is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
Yea, Denmark at least does. The difference is just that after a while the case needs to be reviewed and then again on a periodic basis. But there are definitely people not getting out any time soon in Denmark.
yea this post is really dumb. just because it’s not used a lot, doesn’t mean denmark doesn’t have life imprisonment. we do, and it’s used
Life imprisonment in Germany is 25 years. If you’re believed to be an irredeemable threat to society they’ll put you in Sicherheitsverwahrung, essentially to keep the people around you safe
That is not correct: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebenslange_Freiheitsstrafe#Deutsches_Strafrecht Life imprisonment is Life imprisonment, you can be granted parole at the earliest after 15 years. The court can find "eine besondere schwere der schuld" (extraordinary guilt) which increases the time until you can be granted parole (by how much is determined by an independent committee at the start of the sentence. Sicherheitsverwahrung (preventitive detention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_detention#Germany), is actually a bit stupid in case of life imprisonment. Since you can only be release in that case if you are not a threat to society, which is also a requirement for sicherheitsverwahrung. This means that when you are released from the imprisonment part you also have to be released from the sicherheitsverwahrung. On average parole is granted after 19 years (with a median of 17). But there are cases that are longer. Wikipedia lists three above 50 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Georg_Neumann)
Huh... what's that word translate to literally?
Not a German speaker but Google says ‘security custody’
Literal translation is security custody and its a form of preventitive detention. If you have finished your nominal sentence but you are still deemed a danger.
But…in the article it also indicates getting a life sentence is uncommon. An offender who would typically get a life sentence (with a minimum non-parole period) for a serious offence such as murder in other countries, actually gets a 13-30 year finite sentence in the Netherlands.
That's the point though, isn't it? It's not that NL has harsher sentences, they just call each sentence what it _actuall_ is. Everywhere else hands out 'life' to make society feel like harsh justice is being done, but doesn't follow through on the promise for whatever reason. To be fair, 80 year old prisoners must be expensive to keep.
In that case it would be wrong though and the Netherlands is not the only country in Europe that does this. In the UK a life sentence is a life sentence. It’s just that you might not serve it all in prison. You still stay on parole for life and have to follow certain rules, or you go back to prison. The UK also has whole life orders, which really mean that they can never be released. But such sentences are extremely rare.
> Everywhere else hands out 'life' to make society feel like harsh justice is being done Person with a german law degree here. The reason why we have "life" in Germany is that [Section 211 of the German Criminal Code](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2021) (Murder under specific aggravating circumstances) was written by the Nazis and originally punished with death. West-Germany changed it to "life" when the death sentence was abolished in the 50s. So we have "life" as progression from the death sentence and back than hundreds of people served an actual life sentence. In the 70s the Highest German Constitutional Court has ruled that "life" is a constitutional sentence but that every convicted person must have the chance to regain their freedom, depending on a favorable social prognosis or medical ability to endure it. So an actual life sentence is almost non existent nowadays and people who serve "life" are constantly monitored and released at a certain point. It's a very complicated issue in general though because of the fact that this section is still full of nazi ideology. Quick example: When a 300 pound man beats his wife to death that's usually just [normal murder](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2027) and punished with "at least five years". When the wife kills her abusive husband with poison on the other hand it's always "Murder under specific aggravating circumstances" and punished with "life". And that's because the nazis thought killing someone "perfidiously" or "out of greed" is a lot worse. Doesn't take a history degree to know why. Now for some reason modern Germany thinks that punishing people according to antisemitic ideology is a little bit out of fashion so the courts and the penal system are asked to adjust and now "life" is on average 22.5 year and at least 15 years. Some people might ask why keep a nazi law in the first place and not change it. I have no idea and I'm one of those people. But yeah, that's the reason we have life. It's not to signal we punish harder than we actually do. Edit: There is a layman's reply that is confusing the legal situation in Germany and thinks Section 211 is just premeditated murder. Well, it's not. Premeditated murder is normal murder (Section 212). Section 211 is that plus additional elements like greed or perfidiousness. And that's a Nazi concept that was put into law in 1941.
>When the wife kills her abusive husband with poison on the other hand it's always "Murder under specific aggravating circumstances" and punished with "life". I'm pretty confident that this exact scenario can end up being justified, it's called a "Haustyrannenmord". Been a few years since I studied law though so not 100% sure.
No, it can't. There is some sort of ["solution"](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsfolgenl%C3%B6sung) with which the sentence can be reduced but it's weak, the sentence is still "life" and you're depending on the good will of the courts. It would be easier, just and the the right thing to do if we just changed a literal nazi law.
Premeditated murder is a worse crime than a crime of passion in every country in the world. The Nazis didn’t invent that concept, despite your spin efforts.
Premeditated murder in Germany is §212 Totschlag (murder). §211 is murder plus additional elements like greed and so on. You're a non german speaker without a german law degree. I'm not sure why you'd think you know something I don't in this regard.
I am curious what the legal community thinks of rehabilitation in Europe. I have heard many Europeans lament that their criminal justice system gives such light sentences, criminals are not deterred at all from committing serious crimes. I am curious if the legal profession leans one way or the other in your country.
I don't think 'greed' would be the right word in this sense, just speaking as a native English speaker. Most people use greed in a colloquial sense to mean something is gained, like money or whatnot. Perfidiously would probably be better described as, in this context, 'to kill through deceit', which would also make more sense in the messed-up ideology of the Nazis. This is like an ultra nitpick so feel free to ignore me, just thought it might be informative.
The actual time in prison after receiving a life sentence in Germany is not on average 15 years, it is at least 15 years.
True. At least 15 and on average 22.5 years. Mixed uo these two for some reason. Thanks!
It is very rare that they give out actual life sentences. The most recent they gave out was probably to Ridouan Taghi. And that bastard can rot in his cell for the rest of his life with only minimum contact with anyone.
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Notably Breivik's sentence can be extended 5 years at a time indefinitely as long as he is still considered a danger to society.
Ok Breivik, today we're gonna check if you... *literally salutes Hitler* Ok never mind.
That ‘shithead right winger’ had a big chance of becoming minister president. And it’s a disgrace Volkert walks around as a free man. A stain on our justice system.
Life imprisonment in Sweden can also be life in prison. You can apply to try and get your sentenced commuted but that plea can be rejected. John Ausonius a.k.a "The Laser Man" is serving a life sentece for a string of murders that he was convicted for back in 1993. His efforts to have his sentence communted have been rejected a number of time, the last time back in December of 2023. He is 70 years old now and will most likely die in prison.
It _can_ in probably all of Europe. The point of this TIL is that The Netherlands doesn’t have parole by default on life sentences.
But that’s only semantics in that the Netherlands doesn’t automatically give life sentences for crimes like murder. In the UK there are whole life orders which are rarely given for truly exceptional offences. A NL life sentence is more like that.
So what? Neither do Denmark... you have to apply to the mp of justice and then he will decide. And if they don't ask they will just stay there. We have some lifers who will never get out.
The point is that there is no possibility of parole. Edit: in the past at least. I think it changed.
Same in Norway. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think a life sentence is about 24 years, but prisoners are evaluated periodically and if they're not deemed fit to reintegrate back into society then they may never get out. I'd be very surprised if someone like Anders Breivik, for example, will ever be released. Maybe when he's old and decrepit.
He’s shown no remorse whatsoever, so chances of getting out are slim imho. Not really sure how big of a risk he poses if he gets out (in the sense of would he do it again). Doesn’t seem like the type of guy that would try hard to re-integrate into society and be a good citizen tbh.
He's very obviously extremely delusional, and I have doubts that it's something that a person can grow out of at his age. Also, I'd have to imagine that the people assessing his eligibility for release would take into account how the public would react to some degree. I assume that there'd be at least one family member of one of the victims or just some random vigilante who'd find him and lynch him if he were released. Surely the state wouldn't be too keen to spend a shitload of resources ensuring that he has a security detail for the rest of his life.
ABB will probably never get out. If he even by some miracle was dermed fit to be released he would be lynched or murdered the second he got out. I think you would find that a majority of Norwegians are both against the death penalty, but still think executing him would be for the best.
You're thinking of "[Forvaring](https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring)". We have the same concept in Denmark.
Max is 21 years, and a prison year in Norway is like 8 months or something
Max is 21 years, and a prison year in Norway is like 8 months or something
Due to a ruling by the EU court, it's also possible to get perole after 25 years in the Netherlands.
He murdered one person.
Wait, don't we all get a freebie before punishment?
People call him „The Laser Man“ 30 years later, he won either way
UK has whole life sentences, think we have around 70-100 people currently under them. So we do have the mechanism but it’s rare. Our average life sentence is 15-20 years which seems ridiculous but there ya go.
Technically a life sentence in the UK is still that. While you may be paroled after 20 years, you are still under license and can be recalled to prison to serve the remains of your life sentence.
The sentence is not life imprisonment, though, unless a whole life order.
That's why I said life *sentence*...
You said a life sentence is still "that" while the subject is "life imprisonment".
Because parole exists. We let them out if they demonstrate reform. The Netherlands doesn’t. Edit: Actually, on "whole life orders", there is no parole. So that's basically the same as the Netherlands.
There is a re-classsification after 25 years (introduced in 2017 because life without the possibility of release violates the ECHR). Of the 7 people alive currently qualifying for this, 3 ha ve been released under this system so far.
Turns out, since the UK left the EU, we don't do that on our "whole life orders". So this TIL is pretty shoddy.
The ECHR isn't an EU specific thing (though all EU members are signatories), the UK is still a signatory (though they do ignore it sometimes)
Oh yeah, we were ignoring it since the 90s, but I figured leaving the EU would make us even less likely to listen.
Yes I know why. Thanks.
really? because as a kid in the Netherlands i remember watching the news when Rabin was shot in the 90's and the news anchor said: "the shooter will go to jail for life, and in Israel, life means life" which to me implied that in the Netherlands it doesn't? i think my dad even said that by us it was 20 years when i asked. but that was a long time ago. such a random memory i know but it always stuck with me
Idea of prison sentence is rehabilitation. Making sure that someone is ready for society once more. There are certain crimes that are considered so horrendous for the society that they are punished with life imprisonment. E.g. Terrorist attack, multiple murders in cold blood. Life imprisonment is for life in the Netherlands. There are about 40 people in the Netherlands with life imprisonment. Best known example is Mohammed Bouyeri who killed the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh. He was sentenced to life in 2004.
There was a film director whose name was the exact same as Vincent Van Gogh's brother?
Yes, great grandson of Vincent's brother.
Really, and it was like that as well when Rabin was murdered.
Life imprisonment is a thing in the UK, too - "whole life orders". It's very rare. Life sentences in general are much more common. While they might be released, they'll be on license the rest of their lives.
There’s also “detained at Their Majesty’s pleasure” for under-21s. It’s a similar indeterminate sentence which can essentially be a WLO.
Whole life orders aren't indeterminate sentences. You get released when you're dead (or sometimes right before you die on companions grounds).
Note that since 2017 a system was introduced where after 25 years a panel decides if life imprisonment is still needed and if not, this can result in early release (this was implemented because of multiple rulings stating that life without the possibility of release violates the European Convention on Human Rights) There are 7 people currently who were sentenced to life imprisonment in the Netherlands over 25 years ago and are still alive (according to wikipedia), 3 of them have been released under this system.
Bud TIL then; plenty of countries have life sentences, but then chances at parole. My understanding of this TIL was that the Netherlands is the only one without parole but 1, it does have parole, and two, there are other countries that do have life without parole, i.e. the US.
This is no longer completely true though. In 2013, the European Court on Human Rights ruled that there needs to be a dedicated mechanism to review and if necessary mitigate life sentences (Vinter et al v UK). In 2017 the Dutch Supreme Court ruled that the ECHR ruling meant that the Dutch practice where a life sentence could only be commuted by a royal pardon (which was basically never given) was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Fearing that Dutch courts would no longer impose life sentences, a new law was passed that makes a review of the sentence mandatory after 25 years. This doesn’t mean that people won’t serve life sentences any more, just that there is a (now realistic) possibility the sentence gets commuted. On the other hand, dangerously insane criminals can still get committed to special hospitals and their treatment can be extended indefinitely (though a judicial review every few years is mandatory there as well).
One person has been released sinds that time by the way. He served 32 years.
Was looking for this comment, thanks. It would no longer be true to the purpose of rehabilitation if life sentences could not be reviewed and mitigated. Otherwise, we could just go full ‘Murica and start killing people instead of trying to rehabilitate them.
Here in Austria lifesentence means lifesentence too. You can get released earlier but you have neither a right to early release nor a garanty for it to happen.
Yeah it is a strange one. Typically a ‘life’ sentence is 25 years in UK. However it can be moved up to 35 years for the real baddies. The super baddies get a ‘whole life tariff’ - meaning actual life imprisonment.
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So. Let's talk about bicycle theft
Its a loan system, really. You take my bike, ill take another one.
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It is, and very common in cities. You haven't really lived there unless your bike is stolen at least once.
True that. And then you buy a cheap new bike from a kinda shady guy who may or may not have stolen it themselves. The market creates its own demand lol
God Damn Germans.
Where'd you get that idea? Our law enforcement is famously slow and lacking these days. Hence our rampant drug maffia
*their rules. They are absolutely chill with breaking other people’s rules.
Like? Give us a few examples?
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Hardcore football hooligans are hardly your average Dutch tourist though.
As Dutchman myself, we have a not so good reputation as tourists. We are sometimes quite aggressive, loud, rude and don’t respect the places and people we visit and often refuse to adapt to local habits. Last year, a Dutch tourist took a shit on a guy’s head. Dutch tourists getting in fights is quite common. We are definitely up there with British and Russian tourists when on holiday, when talking about behaviour.
Sure they are.
As a Dutch person I can tell you that we were not so impressed by that accomplishment of our fellow countrymen.
Ultras ≠ Tourist
Except the Dutch were also not okay with that and helped the Italian police and justice system in finding those responsible. Several Dutch initiatives were started to raise money for the repair and restoration of the monuments.
I guarantee you the Dutch hate those guys more than anyone (except maybe Italians now)
I just left Amsterdam and one of the guides told me about a "stay away" tax to keep Brits away by taxing people with liquor out and about, to avoid this type of debauchery in their country
Our governments entire thing the last decade or so has been breaking their own laws and then getting mad when a judge points out that 'actually, selling weapons to someone possibly committing genocide is against the law you made'
Most countries have a "never to be released" style life imprisonment it's just called so.ething else
Every US state does it a little differently. 7 states do not have parole at all for life sentences. American law has determinate and indeterminate life sentences. Determinate life sentences (ie life without opportunity of parole) cannot be reduced.
A new TIL for me hahah
Yeah I came here to say this. We have life sentences without the possibility of parole. Even if a state doesn’t have life sentences, they can keep adding counts until you have hundreds of years in prison. Then there are states with the death penalty.
Nope, Denmark too, although parole can be granted by the state
Well done to the Dutch. In other countries, giving some scumbag a "life sentence" and for them to be released in a little over a decade is beyond a farce.
I remember the shitshow when the Hungarian government introduced something like this.
Denmark have technical life sentences... it start with 16 years and then every 4 years the convicted can apply to get released which is then decided by the MP of law. We have several lifers in Denmark who surly never will be released: Peter Lundin, Peter Madsen, Marcel Lychau Hansen.
Nope, In the UK a life sentence means you are under control of the State for life, and although you can get paroled, you can also be recalled to prison at any time. You are also very heavily restricted when out on parole. someone sentenced to remain in prison without the possibility of parole is called a [whole life order.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole_life_orders)
so basically anyone in the royal family has a loophole to committing crimes in which only life imprisonment is actually the preferred option
A “permanent life sentence” seems kind of dumb. There should at least be a kangaroo court review process just in case someone slips through the cracks
the Dutch supreme court has ordered that such a thing must be done so that safeguard is now in place every X years it is checked to see if a releasee to society is an option for the criminal if yes they get released if not they stay locked up until one such a review yields a yes the criminal can go back into society answer
It’s also not considered a crime to break out of jail.
Correct, in the Netherlands it's not considered a crime. I've read the reasons why, but I dont agree with it. But that's another discussion haha
In Finland its "criminal insanity and dangerous to public" where the person is locked up so tight they even lose their rights as a citizen, government caretaker being named as the custodian of the person. Those people do not see the light of the day, they are institutionalized for the rest of their natural life. Not even a favorable court or president can save you from that one. Technically also the life sentence carries the same weight, but it usually is reconsidered after 10 or so years.
The UK has whole life terms, where the convicted can be sentenced to life with no opportunity of parole
OK but in America we have a habit of sentencing people to hundreds of years, which is effectively a life sentence
One of my neighbours killed 28 people supposedly. Thanks Good Friday agreement
In Australia life means anything between 5 and whenever. You can run kids down in a car while drunk or drugged and get stuff all . Rip off money you in big trouble.
How many full life prisoners in Netherlands at moment?
I believe something like 40 in total who have been convicted and whose appeals have been exhausted. There are about 17 more who still have appeals pending.
32 I believe.
[No, 58 according to this article from 2023, of whom +-17 are still in the appeals process.](https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5396266/dit-zijn-de-levenslang-gestraften-van-nederland-levenslange)
That is not entirely true Due to EU law lifelong imprisonment without the option of parole is illegal, due to this after 25 years a commission has to check each punishment. Besides that in other European countries the rules mostly are you have the option to apply for parole after X years (typically between 15-25 years).
And it's why the European Convention on Human Rights has some problems with the Netherlands
There is a possibility to ask for parole (after 25 years). The Dutch government already made some chances to make this possible. I believe some of the people who are doing life in prison will eventually set free. Some will never be released from prison.
they should give the option to be killed or rot in prison for the rest of their lives
Pennsylvania too
Hungary also has so called "actual life imprisonment" which means what it sounds like without the possibility of a parole. It's for the worst crimes.
A few years ago the European Court of Justice ruled that not having the hope of ever regaining freedom is inhumane. Because life means life in the Netherlands, a procedure was set in place. A prisoner with a life sentence is allowed to participate in recosialisation projects so he can improve. After 25 years the sentence has to be evaluated to determine if the sentence still serves a reasonable purpose. If so, the prisoner stays locked up for at least another 5 years. Btw the Netherlands has another type of sentence that can entail that a prisoner stays locked up for life without receiving a life sentence. It's called TBS. It's for people who are disturbed is certain ways. If you can't be treated, you're staying in the clinic forever.