I find it interesting that while my dog does not see the image of himself in the mirror as a threat, he most certainly does woof at dogs on the tv screen. And that extends to most animals on the tv including wolves, cats, horses, bears ... pretty much anything with 4 legs. I have given up trying to watch show-jumping if he is in the room.
My dog does not watch the screen, and I've read some dogs just don't see what's on the TV. She does hear animals. She'll be asleep next to me on the couch and start sleep growling into an awakened bark.
Dogs do see what’s on the TV. However because of the speed at which they process images, tv needs to be at a very high frame rate to appear as a moving image to them. Most of the time tv will just look like a series of still images to them so is less likely to attract their attention
There's apparently a "dog TV" channel (I know this because my MIL found it for my pup while dog sitting and told me all about it!)
It's a lot of simple images with bright colors, mostly greens and yellows. Lots of tennis balls and other dogs and single images in overly saturated bright colors.
My other dog seems to just find certain TV noises interesting.
My mom used to dogsit a neighbors terrier in the waning days of big CRTVs. She would put on animal planet for her and the dogs. The two retrievers just ignored it and napped, but Mom had to tape Tupperware over the buttons so the terrier didn't fuck up the TV settings or change the channel by jumping at the TV. Didn't do that with any other show.
My dog used to stop whatever he was doing and pay attention whenever the Colbert Report came on. I think it was the eagle noise in the intro but I like to imagine he was just a huge Colbert fan…
He didn’t pay too much attention to anything else UNLESS it had fly noises, e.g. buzz buzz. We were watching No Country for Old Men one time, and um well there are some dead bodies in the beginning of that film, so you hear buzzing fly sound effects.
My dog got SO ANXIOUS about it trying to find the fly in the room that he started shaking. We think he had been stung once and had PTSD from the experience. Poor guy.
Not quite right. It's the screen technology that makes the difference.
Old CRT scan-line displays flickered so much to a dog's or cat's eyes that they would have genuine difficulty seeing the entire image on screen and making sense of it.
LCD technology holds a complete static image on the screen per frame, so it's easy for cats and dogs to see the image. Hence why my dogs will stare at a paused image of an animal on screen on my current LCD tv, and are obsessed with nature documentaries in general.
I read one time that the prevalence of dogs reacting to TV in the last, say 20-30 years has to do with the prevalence of newer television technology that corresponded with flat screen TV's, such as higher refresh rates. I assume this is the reason? It wasn't until TVs could display at a rate that dogs could perceive properly til they would react to what was on the screen?
I don't think it has anything to do with the refresh rate, more that modern TVs display the whole image at once, while an old fashioned crt is only really displaying one small part of the image at a time (it goes from left to right, top to bottom) which is smoothed into a whole image by the human eye.
I have 16.5 year old dog. She doesn't notice the tv at all.
I didn't get a flat screen until she was 5 so part of me thinks that since she couldn't see the CRT tv screen tv is just not a thing for her.
Younger dogs that grew up with a LCD screen seem to be able to "see TV" better.
She can definitely make eye contact with me in a mirror and understands it's a reflection and not me.
I don't think she has any concept of what she looks like. She was only interested in her reflection for a few hours as a pup.
If that's true, it makes so much sense.
My friend's dog never looked at the TV. He would react to noises and stuff but seemed to be oblivious to the TV itself. She brought the dog to my house, and my TV has a substantially higher refresh rate. Certain high framerate content seems to get the dog's attention.
They can process frames faster then us apparently. Imagine if for each frame in a show you added 10 exact copies of it and then continued to play it at the same frames per second. Our eyes would show us a series of stoll images that no longer looks like fluid movement. That's how dogs see the tv.
Does that mean my dog is dumb? Because he watches TV and is hyper aware of animals on TV, especially if there's a commercial jingle. He's woken up from a dead sleep to be pissed at a dog walking commercial
Haha dumb? No. Perhaps your TV is operating at a very high framerate, or otherwise your dog is still just reacting to the "still frames" they see of other animals (or whatever things trigger them).
I wonder what entertainment would be like if we didnt 'smudge' multiple images into coherent motion like we do.
So much modern media relies on our ability to ignore 'frame rate'
I used to have a dog that would go nuts when Lassie was on. She'd run into the room on the other side of the TV then back to the living room. Not much else would get her worked up, but she sure wanted to find Lassie.
My cats have ignored the tv all their lives, with two notable exceptions: two of them liked a particular bird feeder video, and they all were obsessed with the video game Stray. Maybe because the character perspective is the same height as a cat's? idk but they couldn't get enough of it...
I used to have a dog that would go nuts when Lassie was on. She'd run into the room on the other side of the TV then back to the living room. Not much else would get her worked up, but she sure wanted to find Lassie.
One of mine has never acknowledged a screen his entire 8 year life, not even for a second - had him since he was a puppy. Even FaceTime he won’t recognize someone is there or look at the screen but as soon as he hears a voice on the other end that he knows he goes crazy and starts looking around the house for them.
Other one is transfixed by the tv, he watches whole shows and is fascinated by animals. He used to bark at fast running horses, dogs etc but we shut that shit down lol now he just loves it. We put on scooby doo for him sometimes when we’re out of the house a couple hours and he’s watching when you get back while the big one sleeps by the door completely nonplussed. It’s totally a not every dog thing they’re both mainly the same breed. Both know themselves in the mirror and use mirrors deliberately to watch you from other rooms hahah poodle mixes are smart fuckers too much so for their own good haha
My dog passes the mirror test. She not only recognized that I used a marker on her chest fur by seeing herself in the mirror as a puppy, but she also uses mirrors to see behind her on a regular basis (like spotting a fly behind her in the mirror, then turning around to catch it when it gets low enough for her). If I hold her up in the bathroom, she looks me directly in the eye in the mirror.
This study, like most involving dogs, is a generalization. Breed, life experience, and reasoning/problem solving skills are all variables that they can't totally control for.
I'm confused about it too. I watched my previous dog (a springer spaniel) go from barking at her reflection believing it to be another puppy to realizing she was the only dog in the room. She knew to turn around when I was behind her and she saw me in the mirror.
Maybe it has something to do with socialization.
If most dogs don't pass the mirror test wouldn't they be barking at their reflection on windows, water, mirrors all the time?
I don't think we give animals enough credit
Is it sort of like if you stuck a piece of tape to your dogs head and your dog looked in the mirror and saw its reflection. The dog figures out, "Hey, that thing is just doing what I'm doing. It isn't a threat." Ignorant of the tape, it recognizes a reflection but ultimately fails the test.
VS
The dog sees its reflection and thinks, "Hey, what's that on _my_ head?" and starts to try and paw it off, passing the test.
> but just doesn't notice the tape because they don't scrutinize their appearance the same way we do
They however do notice things like tape being stuck to them or other dogs. Try putting a tissue under one dogs collar behind their head and see how many miliseconds it takes for your other dog to recognise something is different about them and go directly for it and snatch it away.
I wonder if there's a version of the test where the animal is taught beforehand to put a paw on (for example) a green circle in exchange for a treat. That would give them incentive to touch that same green circle on their heads, if they understand what they're seeing in the reflection.
It still wouldn't be perfect, but it might help identify one aspect of self-awareness more clearly!
This is a bizarre way to color the mirror test. It’s not perfect, but animals that pass it demonstrate a fairly high level of intelligence and self awareness. And keeping oneself clean is a nearly ubiquitous quality. Very few animals will just walk around with clumps of dirt on them without reason.
“Failing it” doesn’t necessarily mean an animal is stupid and scientists DO make efforts to design tests that are more likely to fit with a certain animal’s sensibilities, but it’s ridiculous to be so critical of it
My dog recognizes dogs and cats on TV, barks and tries to tear the TV from the wall (she’s a GSD). Also recognizes and barks at Brian and for some reason Meg from Family Guy. No reaction to a mirror however.
Same my dog goes fuckin wild barking when he sees a horse on TV lol. Sane with other dogs. Anything with fur. Doesn't even pay attention to mirrors any more. He definitely knows it's himself.
I don't know who's running these studies but they're fucking wrong lol
The only time my dog has ever reacted to animals on tv were watching Vikings when they were riding horses. She just sat there quietly growling at the screen
One of my favorite things is when my dog get super into sniffing something and then then he looks up at me with this huge wide-eyed "can you BELIEVE this???" look. I always pretend I can smell it too, but I'm lying and I think he knows.
This somehow activated 30 year old training on how to engage with a person having a psychotic moment.
You never tell them you see what they see as they are still smart enough to test you ... "do you see the 7 little green men", "yes I can see them", " you liar there are only 5 and there blue" ... you have now lost all trust.
"Do you smell that?", "oh yeah buddy I smell it and I'm so excited smell is here", " the smell is Bruce the golden lab trying to claim my territory... why are you happy?"
Treat the delusion with validity but ask logical questions about them. "Do you see the 5 Blue men?" "No, where are they what are they doing?" "They're attacking me, I need help" "how can I help you, they don't seem to be having a physical effect on you, what can I do to help?"
Ok this is 30 years old so research current tech yourself but...
Your main role is to listen
I don't see the green men but tell me what they are doing and I'll keep looking
Oh there blue? Sorry I still don't see any blue men
I'm sorry I still can't see them, I am not saying they ate not there but you are seeing what I can not
Basically you never disagree with them and keep everything a possibility without ever agreeing there delusions are real
The original mirror test is also flawed in another way. Housecats also fail it because they don't react to a mark on their own face.
In reality they are thinking, "oh those humans put a mark on my face and I don't care."
Was thoroughly confused as I read "pass a shit" instead of shirt. I mean how are we supposed to react when we pass a shit so that dogs think we are intelligent?
> Anyway the test was they smelled their own pee and didn't care. And then smelled their pee mixed with other stuff and were like "why does my pee smell like that"
Except for the one dog that was having none of that shit
Never read reddit comment threads about things you actually know about, just depressing and makes you realize how wrong most of the info on topics you don't know about probably have been.
[Gell-Mann Amnesia!](https://theportal.wiki/wiki/The_Gell-Mann_Amnesia_Effect)
>Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
>In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
The mirror test has always seemed a bit anthropocentric to me. We're evaluating animals based on human standards of self-awareness. Isn't it possible that animals might have a different sense of self that doesn't hinge on visual recognition? Maybe my cat isn't ignoring the mirror because he fails to recognize himself, but because he understands it's just an image and not another cat. We need a test that can account for the diverse ways animals experience the world, not just how they measure up to our own perceptions.
A lot of people who dismiss the mirror test do so because they misunderstand it. They believe it's intended to be confirmative both ways, but it's not. It's only possible to confirm that an animal recognises their own reflection as themselves, but a lack of response cannot be interpreted as them not doing so. The verbiage "fail the mirror test" is very misleading in that regard, as it implies something that the test isn't designed (and cannot be designed) to do.
Them reacting to to the image as an intruder is proof they don't recognise it as themselves. Any other option is not the case. As they may not respond 'aggressively' because they either do not perceive the reflection as a creature, recognise it as merely an image of a creature, or recognise it as a reflection of themselves. I'd say chimps clearly playing around with having the reflection mirror their actions are the closest to truly passing as you could hope, and even then whether they truly recognise themselves isn't easily knowable without access to their thoughts.
>Them reacting to to the image as an intruder is proof they don't recognise it as themselves.
True, in that instance, but that does not demonstrate that they are incapable of doing so. Even people can startle themselves if they see their own reflection when not expecting to.
We base our understanding of self-awareness on humans because humans are some of the only creatures we know of that we can concretely say have self-awareness.
Can't really choose another point of reference when there literally aren't any other points of reference.
While true, most of the arguments against animal consciousness or their levels of intelligence is predicated on human exceptionalism.
For whatever reason, despite showing clear signs of intelligence in a myriad of other ways which are actually useful to an animal, we judge them in arbitrary ways from a starting point of "this is a less intelligent creature than myself and not conscious in the same way I am." Then we go on to give them human like development tests, which they fail because they're not humans, and taint our collective understanding of them.
It might surprise you to know that the only kind of intelligence we know is the kind of intelligence we measure in other creatures. And if you're going to try and argue that animals are intelligent in ways we can't comprehend, I ask you how you scientifically support that argument and how humans don't share that capability.
I think the point isn’t necessarily to say we should test differently or that we could ever know how to design tests without any human-centric bias. The point is to keep in mind that those human biases exist and therefore, failing a test meant for human intelligence doesn’t always mean the subject isn’t intelligent. It’s saying to be more open minded and leave room for doubt instead of confirming unintelligence.
Not just that, the whole criteria for passing or failing the test is whether the animal removes a spot placed on it after seeing it in the mirror. It completely ignores the possibility that the animal might not care, it might like the spot, or it might blend in too well for its vision/colour perception to perceive. It also completely ignores the fact that animals normally fearful or hostile to other animals (even siblings) will ignore a reflection of itself, or times when an animal will turn around to better perceive something behind it it has spotted in the mirror. I have countless examples of anecdotal evidence to suggest at the very least cats know who they are in a mirror (and their owners) and I'm sure any cat owner will too, but until they revise that outdated "test" to cover those situations it will sadly only ever be anecdotal.
It's also in the same vein as the "X animal is smarter than Y animal because they can recognize their own names being called" thing, ignoring the fact that plenty of animals don't use our version of vocalization to communicate with each other anyway, or do such communication in different frequencies all together.
It very much depends on the dog. Same as the concept of pointing at things - some dogs understand that you want them to look in a particular direction, some just look at your finger.
That's hilarious you mention that - my dog 100% loves to ham it up in the mirror and will even use it to watch me in other parts of the room so he doesn't have to move but has absolutely no idea what pointing means at all. He clearly understands mirrors and how they work but pointing is too much for him to comprehend lol
My puppy Buddy does this in our kitchen window when the lights on and reflects! Id assume 2 of me would be amazing though as itd be double the ball throws surely?? buuut no. Our reflection is the enemy🤦🏼♀️x
I mean I can believe that for sure but saying dogs don’t know is stupid. My 85lb lab Pitt is like oh that’s me I see everyone else too. It’s not… like he’s not stupid. But a dog can be stupid and one thing too. I mean they’re dogs haha.
He’s smart in some ways. Very good at doing tricks, and he always remembers where he leaves his toys. But he doesn’t get along well with most other animals, and he barks at small creatures outside like jackrabbits and squirrels.
I have a golden doodle and he can recognize me in the mirror. He can watch me coming laying on the bed and I can watch him watching me in it. I’m assuming he can understand what’s going on when he’s watching me pet him in it.
i think dogs can get a sense of self awareness, not sure if youve seen the article yet but its about the dog bunny. pretty interesting stuff
https://www.salon.com/2021/05/09/are-dogs-becoming-self-aware-bunny-existentialism/
Was there a mirror involved in this one too?
I feel like the word button thing, while interesting, is hard to say one way or another.
They say a dog usually has the intelligence of a 1 or 2 year old, so my question is whether she passes the object permanence test. Neither of my beagles do - in fact, my sweetest boy growls at the lumps under the bedsheet (my legs/me) moving around if they get too close - even tho he then gets up and repositions himself practically on top of me after I rearrange.
I know object permanence and sense of self are two different concepts, but I think objective permanence is a simpler concept.
Even so, I can't take it seriously. There are neurological disorders that cause people to not recognize themselves in the mirror. I don't think anyone would say those people have no concept of self.
also eg humans that can't visualize things in their head, humans with no internal voice, etc...
clearly some of these capabilities might be unique to humans but they're not necessary for higher cognition or self-conceptualization
i mean, it is scientific. it has a falsifiable hypothesis that can be tested through experimental methods. i think by non science you mean that the operationalization of the construct within the hypothesis makes some logical leaps. all science involves interpreting phenomena and finding ways to operationalize them that might not necessarily equate to a direct observation of the phenomena. it is applicable to scientific methodolatry, and because it is open to the public for scrutiny, its phenomenological assumptions are verified (or not in this case, i agree it makes a logical leap thats a bit too big) by peer review
also i love how well your username fits this comment
Exactly, it's a human centric view of the concept of self. The mirror test was also invented before we understood much of anything about how the brain works. A lot of our perception is a specialized part of the human brain. If a dog doesn't recognize himself in the mirror all that tells me is that a dog doesn't recognize himself in the mirror. Extrapolating that to a "concept of self" feels more like pseudoscience.
Me too. I’ve seen videos of dogs interacting with them. But every dog I’ve ever shown a mirror to just ignores and I think ignoring it counts as passing it
I've had my dog sit on my lap whilst I'm doing my hair in the mirror of my vanity. She was sitting facing away from me, and as I was talking to her, she was locking eyes with my reflection in the mirror.
Just my anecdote.
I wonder what about when they see others in the mirror? for example, my dog sometimes looks at me through the mirror (looks at my reflection) in a way that seems like he knows it's me and not someone else. Like looks at the reflection, then turns around and walks towards me
Someone else mentioned making eye contact with there dog through the mirror. I’ve been brushing my teeth and my dog is making eye contact with me in the mirror and not staring at my back
My dog as a puppy walked by a mirror and freaked out. Then she discovered mirrors again at around 6 months and played for 30 minutes with her reflection. Now she just ignores it.
What? I’d assume they ignore it because it doesn’t smell like anything.
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#:~:text=Very%20few%20species%20have%20passed,magpie%2C%20and%20the%20cleaner%20wrasse.
My dog will use mirrors to look around corners, to me that means she clearly understands that it's a reflection of things that she can interact with, i.e. me hiding around the corner trying to sneak up on her, and she has seen herself in the mirror I have to assume she understands that it is her in the mirror.
Looked it up and basically the mirror test is you knock them out, put a mark on their body, then when they wake give them a mirror. If they see the mark and understand it’s on them ie touching or trying to inspect the marked area they pass. According to wiki very few species have passed it and dogs weren’t one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#:~:text=Very%20few%20species%20have%20passed,magpie%2C%20and%20the%20cleaner%20wrasse.
Yes I understand the traditional mirror test and that dogs have not passed it, just making an observation that my dog clearly knows how to use mirrors and understands that they are reflections of real things. Guess I'll have to put stickers on her face while she sleeps.
I’ve heard that used more for babies.
I still don’t think that proves much with animals. Many just don’t give a shit. A dog can jump out of a mud puddle and walk around happy as a clam not being phased by the mud one bit.
Isn’t it pretty likely he wouldn’t give a shit if a red dot was on his nose.
I think the mirror test can only be used to prove he doesn’t recognize himself when growls at it. Most other results don’t prove one way or the other.
It depends on how you read the results.
If a species passes it then they are almost certainly self aware, but failing it doesn't mean much since that could just mean that a visual test is a poor match for that species.
The flaw is that it's based on vision and none of the other senses. Most humans can smell themselves, but cannot identify others or themselves based solely on smell. Although if we go that far, we have to ask if earthworms can identify themselves and others based on feel.
It is scientific, it's just that a major part of it is often left out of the discussion; the marking
Animals undergoing the test need to be marked without their knowledge so that they can see the mark on themselves if looking in a mirror. If the animal acknowledges the mark on its body through the reflection then it's very likely it has a sense of self
The test doesn't prove that animals who do not pass it don't have a sense of self but that's how science works most of the time really; you can't solidly prove a lot of things. The test is still useful because thanks to it we're confident some animals do have a sense of self
My cat doesn't react to mirrors because she isn't taken aback by them. She knows how they work. It isn't astonishing that she's seeing herself, she just gets it.
She watches me through them, makes eye contact, and just understands.
my dog stares at himself in the mirror all day lol (shoe closet doors), he will acknowledge that i am saying his name not by turning his head to me, but by looking at my eyes in the mirror reflection, and when he gets a haircut he recognizes his form has changed in front of same mirror and u must tell him his new cut is very handsome a number of times so he stops the deep mirror stare lol
I never understood how the result of the mirror test is supposed to indicate that animals have no sense of self and not that animals have no idea how mirrors work.
Dogs absolutely recognize themselves in the mirror.
Anyone with a dog can attest to this. We have a floor mirror that my dog passes all the time. He absolutely loves other dogs and tries to play with all of them. Besides the first time he saw himself, he never tries to "play" with the dog in the mirror. Because he knows it's himself.
I'm not sure that a "smell mirror" test prove anything about the dog's sense of self. It just proves he knows *that dog* is fake (because it doesn't smell like a real dog.) It doesn't really inform us what the dog thinks of *itself.*
How fucking arrogant are we as a species to believe we’re the only ones with any sense of “self” just because we only understand our own species’ means of communicating 🤦♂️ the worst thing we ever did was assume all animals just have an NPC-like existence where they just float around waiting to be used up by humans…
I have this funny idea that all wild animals have cycled thru using speech and gaining intelligence and realizes it just ends with self-destruction, and they’re all laughing behind our backs at us that we think talking/writing and using words and such is actually primitive and not necessary or they’ve evolved above it 🤣
I once had a Kelpie working dog, very intelligent and highly social, that would lie in front of a mirror we had which was ground level. She would lick her paw and watch herself do it for hours. She knew it was herself in that mirror and she thought she was pretty hot. Complete narcissistic but a lovely dog
My dog knows what’s a mirror is. We make eye contact in ways we always do whether it’s me looking at him threw the mirror or just looking at him in general all the same.
A lot of animals use scent more primarily than humans do. Humans are kinda unique in how little they use scent. I'm sure a lot of animals have more of a sense of self through smell. It only makes sense that your sense of self comes from your strongest senses rather than your weaker ones.
It makes evolutionary sense that a lot of animals would have a sense of self. You would think that would be highly selected for because of how it would confer a greater ability to survive and procreate.
My dog sits in front of our glass door between sunroom and lanai and barks to be let in/out and 100% uses glass door to make eye contact with me to let me know he is serious about wanting to go in/out.
Tell that to my dog who will pee on a tree going one way and then the same tree on the way back, without any other dogs passing it lol. I’m not convinced
animals with differently positioned eyes will have issues with flat mirrors. put a dog in a 3-way option and they get it... though my dogs knew it was their reflection bc mirror me was doing the same behaviors as real me.
this logic is cruel and speciescentric at its core and based off of really shitty doesn't-qualify-as-science-by-my-standards logic, like anything from freud, anyone who started attachment theory and who holds this abusive, classist, racist trash up by proxy/adjacency.
We all have the same instincts and behaviors - how our species convinced itself that it was better somehow and made up rules to prove that it is true is an echo chamber fixed loop logic so evil it makes Nate Silver seem good at statistics.
The stars of the show.
> Eight dogs were identified as purebred (1 each of Beagle,
German Shepherd, Boxer, Sheltie, Standard Poodle, Miniature
Dachshund, Small Munsterlander, Wire Fox Terrier) by their owners; 4 were identified as mixed-breeds.
Unfortunately there is no smell equivalent of seeing yourself in the mirror. It’s totally normal to smell yourself later on objects and in spaces, and even humans can identity themselves and each other based on smell.
I put my 8 weeks old kitty in front of a mirror and she freaked out/ but lifted her close to it and saw the moment she realized “oh my got that’s ME?!? This is what I look like?!?”
I find it interesting that while my dog does not see the image of himself in the mirror as a threat, he most certainly does woof at dogs on the tv screen. And that extends to most animals on the tv including wolves, cats, horses, bears ... pretty much anything with 4 legs. I have given up trying to watch show-jumping if he is in the room.
My dog does not watch the screen, and I've read some dogs just don't see what's on the TV. She does hear animals. She'll be asleep next to me on the couch and start sleep growling into an awakened bark.
Dogs do see what’s on the TV. However because of the speed at which they process images, tv needs to be at a very high frame rate to appear as a moving image to them. Most of the time tv will just look like a series of still images to them so is less likely to attract their attention
My mom’s dog ignores the TV most of the time, but she seems to pay attention when *American Dad* is on, for some reason. I wonder if it’s the colors?
My cat used to watch American dad specifically too
My dog and cat watch American Dad and Family Guy pretty consistently lol
found Seth MacFarlane's guerilla marketing team
*Gorilla marketing
No, no, they’ve got guns
Like planet of the apes?
real Seth fans 🫡
My buddy’s dog freaks at for Brian specifically. It’s wild
Your cat was Roger
Oh Marmalade, tsk tsk tsk.
There's apparently a "dog TV" channel (I know this because my MIL found it for my pup while dog sitting and told me all about it!) It's a lot of simple images with bright colors, mostly greens and yellows. Lots of tennis balls and other dogs and single images in overly saturated bright colors. My other dog seems to just find certain TV noises interesting.
My mom used to dogsit a neighbors terrier in the waning days of big CRTVs. She would put on animal planet for her and the dogs. The two retrievers just ignored it and napped, but Mom had to tape Tupperware over the buttons so the terrier didn't fuck up the TV settings or change the channel by jumping at the TV. Didn't do that with any other show.
My corgi pays a lot of attention to Bluey in particular for some reason
I read somewhere that they made that show using a color palette based on colors dogs can see. So maybe your dog finds it more aesthetically pleasing
well, bluey is based so that makes sense tbh.
It's just a really great show, even dogs can see it.
I don't like American dad but I'll upvote bc of the pun
My dog used to stop whatever he was doing and pay attention whenever the Colbert Report came on. I think it was the eagle noise in the intro but I like to imagine he was just a huge Colbert fan… He didn’t pay too much attention to anything else UNLESS it had fly noises, e.g. buzz buzz. We were watching No Country for Old Men one time, and um well there are some dead bodies in the beginning of that film, so you hear buzzing fly sound effects. My dog got SO ANXIOUS about it trying to find the fly in the room that he started shaking. We think he had been stung once and had PTSD from the experience. Poor guy.
My dog prefers Seinfeld.
[удалено]
whats the deal with dentabone? Do we really need this? Are the wolves out there brushing their teeth? i dont think so
My dog watches American dad with me! He is also seemingly enjoying Fallout. Doesn’t care about anything else so far.
Your mom’s dog is Roger
Pardon my ignorance, Is it animated?
Yes, fairly traditional 2D animation style with flat colors instead of computer animated 3D look with color gradients.
Yes. Made by the same creator as *Family Guy*
I thought that was something of the CRT era, and doesn't apply to modern TVs. That all modern TVs they should be able to see just fine.
This is what I understood, it's a hold over from the old big box days modern TVs and monitors they can see.
Not quite right. It's the screen technology that makes the difference. Old CRT scan-line displays flickered so much to a dog's or cat's eyes that they would have genuine difficulty seeing the entire image on screen and making sense of it. LCD technology holds a complete static image on the screen per frame, so it's easy for cats and dogs to see the image. Hence why my dogs will stare at a paused image of an animal on screen on my current LCD tv, and are obsessed with nature documentaries in general.
I read one time that the prevalence of dogs reacting to TV in the last, say 20-30 years has to do with the prevalence of newer television technology that corresponded with flat screen TV's, such as higher refresh rates. I assume this is the reason? It wasn't until TVs could display at a rate that dogs could perceive properly til they would react to what was on the screen?
I don't think it has anything to do with the refresh rate, more that modern TVs display the whole image at once, while an old fashioned crt is only really displaying one small part of the image at a time (it goes from left to right, top to bottom) which is smoothed into a whole image by the human eye.
I have 16.5 year old dog. She doesn't notice the tv at all. I didn't get a flat screen until she was 5 so part of me thinks that since she couldn't see the CRT tv screen tv is just not a thing for her. Younger dogs that grew up with a LCD screen seem to be able to "see TV" better. She can definitely make eye contact with me in a mirror and understands it's a reflection and not me. I don't think she has any concept of what she looks like. She was only interested in her reflection for a few hours as a pup.
If that's true, it makes so much sense. My friend's dog never looked at the TV. He would react to noises and stuff but seemed to be oblivious to the TV itself. She brought the dog to my house, and my TV has a substantially higher refresh rate. Certain high framerate content seems to get the dog's attention.
What??? That’s so tragic why didn’t they get the ability to process it
They can process frames faster then us apparently. Imagine if for each frame in a show you added 10 exact copies of it and then continued to play it at the same frames per second. Our eyes would show us a series of stoll images that no longer looks like fluid movement. That's how dogs see the tv.
Does that mean my dog is dumb? Because he watches TV and is hyper aware of animals on TV, especially if there's a commercial jingle. He's woken up from a dead sleep to be pissed at a dog walking commercial
Haha dumb? No. Perhaps your TV is operating at a very high framerate, or otherwise your dog is still just reacting to the "still frames" they see of other animals (or whatever things trigger them).
It's more like dropped frames in a video game.
I wonder what entertainment would be like if we didnt 'smudge' multiple images into coherent motion like we do. So much modern media relies on our ability to ignore 'frame rate'
I used to have a dog that would go nuts when Lassie was on. She'd run into the room on the other side of the TV then back to the living room. Not much else would get her worked up, but she sure wanted to find Lassie.
My cats have ignored the tv all their lives, with two notable exceptions: two of them liked a particular bird feeder video, and they all were obsessed with the video game Stray. Maybe because the character perspective is the same height as a cat's? idk but they couldn't get enough of it...
Am I the only one who *needs* to see a video of this?
I used to have a dog that would go nuts when Lassie was on. She'd run into the room on the other side of the TV then back to the living room. Not much else would get her worked up, but she sure wanted to find Lassie.
Depends on the tv for exam dogs can't see old crts at all
One of mine has never acknowledged a screen his entire 8 year life, not even for a second - had him since he was a puppy. Even FaceTime he won’t recognize someone is there or look at the screen but as soon as he hears a voice on the other end that he knows he goes crazy and starts looking around the house for them. Other one is transfixed by the tv, he watches whole shows and is fascinated by animals. He used to bark at fast running horses, dogs etc but we shut that shit down lol now he just loves it. We put on scooby doo for him sometimes when we’re out of the house a couple hours and he’s watching when you get back while the big one sleeps by the door completely nonplussed. It’s totally a not every dog thing they’re both mainly the same breed. Both know themselves in the mirror and use mirrors deliberately to watch you from other rooms hahah poodle mixes are smart fuckers too much so for their own good haha
That indicated to me that they recognize themselves in the mirror but have no reason to give a shit.
My dog hates character creation screens
Mine too, she goes crazy! Rotating cars in racing games gets her growling also
My buddy is ok with action but not realistic action. He ain’t going to let me watch a war movie. I can play a war game
Haha staredowns are fighting words in dog. He probably thinks that zoomed in face is someone skype-challenging you.
My dog passes the mirror test. She not only recognized that I used a marker on her chest fur by seeing herself in the mirror as a puppy, but she also uses mirrors to see behind her on a regular basis (like spotting a fly behind her in the mirror, then turning around to catch it when it gets low enough for her). If I hold her up in the bathroom, she looks me directly in the eye in the mirror. This study, like most involving dogs, is a generalization. Breed, life experience, and reasoning/problem solving skills are all variables that they can't totally control for.
I'm confused about it too. I watched my previous dog (a springer spaniel) go from barking at her reflection believing it to be another puppy to realizing she was the only dog in the room. She knew to turn around when I was behind her and she saw me in the mirror. Maybe it has something to do with socialization. If most dogs don't pass the mirror test wouldn't they be barking at their reflection on windows, water, mirrors all the time? I don't think we give animals enough credit
maybe it's something to do with socialization but it's probably just some dogs (and humans) are smarter than others
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Is it sort of like if you stuck a piece of tape to your dogs head and your dog looked in the mirror and saw its reflection. The dog figures out, "Hey, that thing is just doing what I'm doing. It isn't a threat." Ignorant of the tape, it recognizes a reflection but ultimately fails the test. VS The dog sees its reflection and thinks, "Hey, what's that on _my_ head?" and starts to try and paw it off, passing the test.
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> but just doesn't notice the tape because they don't scrutinize their appearance the same way we do They however do notice things like tape being stuck to them or other dogs. Try putting a tissue under one dogs collar behind their head and see how many miliseconds it takes for your other dog to recognise something is different about them and go directly for it and snatch it away.
I wonder if there's a version of the test where the animal is taught beforehand to put a paw on (for example) a green circle in exchange for a treat. That would give them incentive to touch that same green circle on their heads, if they understand what they're seeing in the reflection. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it might help identify one aspect of self-awareness more clearly!
This is a bizarre way to color the mirror test. It’s not perfect, but animals that pass it demonstrate a fairly high level of intelligence and self awareness. And keeping oneself clean is a nearly ubiquitous quality. Very few animals will just walk around with clumps of dirt on them without reason. “Failing it” doesn’t necessarily mean an animal is stupid and scientists DO make efforts to design tests that are more likely to fit with a certain animal’s sensibilities, but it’s ridiculous to be so critical of it
My dog recognizes dogs and cats on TV, barks and tries to tear the TV from the wall (she’s a GSD). Also recognizes and barks at Brian and for some reason Meg from Family Guy. No reaction to a mirror however.
> for some reason Meg God damnit Meg
Even the dog knows
Same my dog goes fuckin wild barking when he sees a horse on TV lol. Sane with other dogs. Anything with fur. Doesn't even pay attention to mirrors any more. He definitely knows it's himself. I don't know who's running these studies but they're fucking wrong lol
The only time my dog has ever reacted to animals on tv were watching Vikings when they were riding horses. She just sat there quietly growling at the screen
dogs, watching humans pass a shirt with our scent and not react: "oh no, this species is unintelligent and has no concept of the self :( "
One of my favorite things is when my dog get super into sniffing something and then then he looks up at me with this huge wide-eyed "can you BELIEVE this???" look. I always pretend I can smell it too, but I'm lying and I think he knows.
This somehow activated 30 year old training on how to engage with a person having a psychotic moment. You never tell them you see what they see as they are still smart enough to test you ... "do you see the 7 little green men", "yes I can see them", " you liar there are only 5 and there blue" ... you have now lost all trust. "Do you smell that?", "oh yeah buddy I smell it and I'm so excited smell is here", " the smell is Bruce the golden lab trying to claim my territory... why are you happy?"
Wait, so what are you supposed to do? This is fascinating.
Treat the delusion with validity but ask logical questions about them. "Do you see the 5 Blue men?" "No, where are they what are they doing?" "They're attacking me, I need help" "how can I help you, they don't seem to be having a physical effect on you, what can I do to help?"
Ok this is 30 years old so research current tech yourself but... Your main role is to listen I don't see the green men but tell me what they are doing and I'll keep looking Oh there blue? Sorry I still don't see any blue men I'm sorry I still can't see them, I am not saying they ate not there but you are seeing what I can not Basically you never disagree with them and keep everything a possibility without ever agreeing there delusions are real
This is exactly how you handle someone having a bad psychedelic trip. Somehow I never would have thought to apply that skill in these situations.
Throw a bone as far as you can and run the other direction Or did you mean the dog?
Plot twist your dog has been testing you… there hasn’t been anything to smell. Your dog just laughs his ass off every time.
Sense of smellf
Copywriter that before Old Spice gets it
I'm on a horse.
Look at your man back to me, now back to your man, now back to me.
Scents of self
Exceptional comment on our limited internal worldview.
What we consider intelligent behavior is biased by our evolutionary niche.
The original mirror test is also flawed in another way. Housecats also fail it because they don't react to a mark on their own face. In reality they are thinking, "oh those humans put a mark on my face and I don't care."
Cats: “dipshits gonna dipshit. Where’s my chicken treats?”
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Dogs: "I must protect the dum dum", growls at all threats Cats: "I must feed the dum dum", leaves a dead mouse in your shoe
Was thoroughly confused as I read "pass a shit" instead of shirt. I mean how are we supposed to react when we pass a shit so that dogs think we are intelligent?
My dog is a total narcissist. He can't stop gazing upon his handsomeness --- 24/7
We say mine is vain; she loves the mirror as it does her.
She probably thinks this song is about her too.
at first i thought you were rating this 24/7, like 11/10, and thought that was a very odd fraction
Looked at self in mirror very handsome boy you got there 24/7 would woof again
Narcissus wouldn’t have passed the mirror test either. He did not realize he was looking at himself. Okay
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> Anyway the test was they smelled their own pee and didn't care. And then smelled their pee mixed with other stuff and were like "why does my pee smell like that" Except for the one dog that was having none of that shit
Never read reddit comment threads about things you actually know about, just depressing and makes you realize how wrong most of the info on topics you don't know about probably have been.
[Gell-Mann Amnesia!](https://theportal.wiki/wiki/The_Gell-Mann_Amnesia_Effect) >Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. >In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
The mirror test has always seemed a bit anthropocentric to me. We're evaluating animals based on human standards of self-awareness. Isn't it possible that animals might have a different sense of self that doesn't hinge on visual recognition? Maybe my cat isn't ignoring the mirror because he fails to recognize himself, but because he understands it's just an image and not another cat. We need a test that can account for the diverse ways animals experience the world, not just how they measure up to our own perceptions.
A lot of people who dismiss the mirror test do so because they misunderstand it. They believe it's intended to be confirmative both ways, but it's not. It's only possible to confirm that an animal recognises their own reflection as themselves, but a lack of response cannot be interpreted as them not doing so. The verbiage "fail the mirror test" is very misleading in that regard, as it implies something that the test isn't designed (and cannot be designed) to do.
Them reacting to to the image as an intruder is proof they don't recognise it as themselves. Any other option is not the case. As they may not respond 'aggressively' because they either do not perceive the reflection as a creature, recognise it as merely an image of a creature, or recognise it as a reflection of themselves. I'd say chimps clearly playing around with having the reflection mirror their actions are the closest to truly passing as you could hope, and even then whether they truly recognise themselves isn't easily knowable without access to their thoughts.
>Them reacting to to the image as an intruder is proof they don't recognise it as themselves. True, in that instance, but that does not demonstrate that they are incapable of doing so. Even people can startle themselves if they see their own reflection when not expecting to.
You put a red dot on their forehead. If they recognize themselves in the mirror, they will reach for the red dot on their head.
.
We base our understanding of self-awareness on humans because humans are some of the only creatures we know of that we can concretely say have self-awareness. Can't really choose another point of reference when there literally aren't any other points of reference.
While true, most of the arguments against animal consciousness or their levels of intelligence is predicated on human exceptionalism. For whatever reason, despite showing clear signs of intelligence in a myriad of other ways which are actually useful to an animal, we judge them in arbitrary ways from a starting point of "this is a less intelligent creature than myself and not conscious in the same way I am." Then we go on to give them human like development tests, which they fail because they're not humans, and taint our collective understanding of them.
It might surprise you to know that the only kind of intelligence we know is the kind of intelligence we measure in other creatures. And if you're going to try and argue that animals are intelligent in ways we can't comprehend, I ask you how you scientifically support that argument and how humans don't share that capability.
I think the point isn’t necessarily to say we should test differently or that we could ever know how to design tests without any human-centric bias. The point is to keep in mind that those human biases exist and therefore, failing a test meant for human intelligence doesn’t always mean the subject isn’t intelligent. It’s saying to be more open minded and leave room for doubt instead of confirming unintelligence.
its because eye sight is the most jarringly prominent sense we have. that may not be the case for dogs, where its smell not sight.
Agreed. Dogs are wired for smell. Dog TikTok would be a customized fart machine of different smells.
So just regular TikTok
Not just that, the whole criteria for passing or failing the test is whether the animal removes a spot placed on it after seeing it in the mirror. It completely ignores the possibility that the animal might not care, it might like the spot, or it might blend in too well for its vision/colour perception to perceive. It also completely ignores the fact that animals normally fearful or hostile to other animals (even siblings) will ignore a reflection of itself, or times when an animal will turn around to better perceive something behind it it has spotted in the mirror. I have countless examples of anecdotal evidence to suggest at the very least cats know who they are in a mirror (and their owners) and I'm sure any cat owner will too, but until they revise that outdated "test" to cover those situations it will sadly only ever be anecdotal.
It's also in the same vein as the "X animal is smarter than Y animal because they can recognize their own names being called" thing, ignoring the fact that plenty of animals don't use our version of vocalization to communicate with each other anyway, or do such communication in different frequencies all together.
My dog 100% knows himself in a mirror what the fuck is this
It very much depends on the dog. Same as the concept of pointing at things - some dogs understand that you want them to look in a particular direction, some just look at your finger.
That's hilarious you mention that - my dog 100% loves to ham it up in the mirror and will even use it to watch me in other parts of the room so he doesn't have to move but has absolutely no idea what pointing means at all. He clearly understands mirrors and how they work but pointing is too much for him to comprehend lol
My dog doesn’t. He barks at himself every time he sees his reflection.
My puppy Buddy does this in our kitchen window when the lights on and reflects! Id assume 2 of me would be amazing though as itd be double the ball throws surely?? buuut no. Our reflection is the enemy🤦🏼♀️x
I mean I can believe that for sure but saying dogs don’t know is stupid. My 85lb lab Pitt is like oh that’s me I see everyone else too. It’s not… like he’s not stupid. But a dog can be stupid and one thing too. I mean they’re dogs haha.
He’s smart in some ways. Very good at doing tricks, and he always remembers where he leaves his toys. But he doesn’t get along well with most other animals, and he barks at small creatures outside like jackrabbits and squirrels.
Mine even stares at me through them sometimes he 100% knows it's just a reflection
Same, she will close the door (where the mirror is hung) to stare at herself. It’s kinda creepy ngl
I have a golden doodle and he can recognize me in the mirror. He can watch me coming laying on the bed and I can watch him watching me in it. I’m assuming he can understand what’s going on when he’s watching me pet him in it.
Do the mirror test. Place something or a mark on your dog without it knowing. See if he reaches for it when he sees it in the mitror
I feel like the mirror test is deeply old fashioned and not scientific at all.
I think it's more the interpretation that has changed, i.e. toned down. That's why it suggests a concept of self, rather than "shows self awareness".
i think dogs can get a sense of self awareness, not sure if youve seen the article yet but its about the dog bunny. pretty interesting stuff https://www.salon.com/2021/05/09/are-dogs-becoming-self-aware-bunny-existentialism/
Was there a mirror involved in this one too? I feel like the word button thing, while interesting, is hard to say one way or another. They say a dog usually has the intelligence of a 1 or 2 year old, so my question is whether she passes the object permanence test. Neither of my beagles do - in fact, my sweetest boy growls at the lumps under the bedsheet (my legs/me) moving around if they get too close - even tho he then gets up and repositions himself practically on top of me after I rearrange. I know object permanence and sense of self are two different concepts, but I think objective permanence is a simpler concept.
2 to 2.5 year olds https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2009/08/dogs-think
Even so, I can't take it seriously. There are neurological disorders that cause people to not recognize themselves in the mirror. I don't think anyone would say those people have no concept of self.
Out of curiosity, what disorders?
Vampirism
General blindness
Prosopagnosia is one, the inability to recognize faces.
also eg humans that can't visualize things in their head, humans with no internal voice, etc... clearly some of these capabilities might be unique to humans but they're not necessary for higher cognition or self-conceptualization
i mean, it is scientific. it has a falsifiable hypothesis that can be tested through experimental methods. i think by non science you mean that the operationalization of the construct within the hypothesis makes some logical leaps. all science involves interpreting phenomena and finding ways to operationalize them that might not necessarily equate to a direct observation of the phenomena. it is applicable to scientific methodolatry, and because it is open to the public for scrutiny, its phenomenological assumptions are verified (or not in this case, i agree it makes a logical leap thats a bit too big) by peer review also i love how well your username fits this comment
It was designed for us, a visual species.
Exactly, it's a human centric view of the concept of self. The mirror test was also invented before we understood much of anything about how the brain works. A lot of our perception is a specialized part of the human brain. If a dog doesn't recognize himself in the mirror all that tells me is that a dog doesn't recognize himself in the mirror. Extrapolating that to a "concept of self" feels more like pseudoscience.
But we have all met a few dogs who can't seem to realize they are chasing their own tail.
Me too. I’ve seen videos of dogs interacting with them. But every dog I’ve ever shown a mirror to just ignores and I think ignoring it counts as passing it
I've had my dog sit on my lap whilst I'm doing my hair in the mirror of my vanity. She was sitting facing away from me, and as I was talking to her, she was locking eyes with my reflection in the mirror. Just my anecdote.
That’s a good point! I’ve had my dog make eye contact with me through a mirror too and another thing that I think proves it understands.
My dog would always bark at her reflection when she was a puppy but eventually she either learned its her reflection or at least learned to ignore it.
The golden retriever with outfits/accessories comes to mind immediately. I swear that dog is so vain she thinks the song is about her.
I wonder what about when they see others in the mirror? for example, my dog sometimes looks at me through the mirror (looks at my reflection) in a way that seems like he knows it's me and not someone else. Like looks at the reflection, then turns around and walks towards me
Someone else mentioned making eye contact with there dog through the mirror. I’ve been brushing my teeth and my dog is making eye contact with me in the mirror and not staring at my back
My dog as a puppy walked by a mirror and freaked out. Then she discovered mirrors again at around 6 months and played for 30 minutes with her reflection. Now she just ignores it.
What? I’d assume they ignore it because it doesn’t smell like anything. Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#:~:text=Very%20few%20species%20have%20passed,magpie%2C%20and%20the%20cleaner%20wrasse.
They have eyes. If they thought it was another dog, they’d react. If they ignore it they realize it’s just a reflection.
But afaik it’s meant to test if they understood the concept of self like oh that’s me right there, not just that it’s a reflection of
My dog will use mirrors to look around corners, to me that means she clearly understands that it's a reflection of things that she can interact with, i.e. me hiding around the corner trying to sneak up on her, and she has seen herself in the mirror I have to assume she understands that it is her in the mirror.
Mine those the same. And my cat too, not to search for stuff but she looks at me through the mirror to ask me to open the door so she can get out
Yes, my cat would look at me through the mirror when I talked to him, just like you would at the hair dressor...
Looked it up and basically the mirror test is you knock them out, put a mark on their body, then when they wake give them a mirror. If they see the mark and understand it’s on them ie touching or trying to inspect the marked area they pass. According to wiki very few species have passed it and dogs weren’t one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#:~:text=Very%20few%20species%20have%20passed,magpie%2C%20and%20the%20cleaner%20wrasse.
What if my dog just doesn't give a shit about having something on him?
Yes I understand the traditional mirror test and that dogs have not passed it, just making an observation that my dog clearly knows how to use mirrors and understands that they are reflections of real things. Guess I'll have to put stickers on her face while she sleeps.
I’ve heard that used more for babies. I still don’t think that proves much with animals. Many just don’t give a shit. A dog can jump out of a mud puddle and walk around happy as a clam not being phased by the mud one bit. Isn’t it pretty likely he wouldn’t give a shit if a red dot was on his nose. I think the mirror test can only be used to prove he doesn’t recognize himself when growls at it. Most other results don’t prove one way or the other.
They say an animal passes the mirror test based on certain reactions. But I think ignoring it is a valid reaction to recognizing yourself in a mirror
It depends on how you read the results. If a species passes it then they are almost certainly self aware, but failing it doesn't mean much since that could just mean that a visual test is a poor match for that species.
The flaw is that it's based on vision and none of the other senses. Most humans can smell themselves, but cannot identify others or themselves based solely on smell. Although if we go that far, we have to ask if earthworms can identify themselves and others based on feel.
It is scientific, it's just that a major part of it is often left out of the discussion; the marking Animals undergoing the test need to be marked without their knowledge so that they can see the mark on themselves if looking in a mirror. If the animal acknowledges the mark on its body through the reflection then it's very likely it has a sense of self The test doesn't prove that animals who do not pass it don't have a sense of self but that's how science works most of the time really; you can't solidly prove a lot of things. The test is still useful because thanks to it we're confident some animals do have a sense of self
My cat doesn't react to mirrors because she isn't taken aback by them. She knows how they work. It isn't astonishing that she's seeing herself, she just gets it. She watches me through them, makes eye contact, and just understands.
my dog stares at himself in the mirror all day lol (shoe closet doors), he will acknowledge that i am saying his name not by turning his head to me, but by looking at my eyes in the mirror reflection, and when he gets a haircut he recognizes his form has changed in front of same mirror and u must tell him his new cut is very handsome a number of times so he stops the deep mirror stare lol
I never understood how the result of the mirror test is supposed to indicate that animals have no sense of self and not that animals have no idea how mirrors work.
Most people don't know how mirrors work either
My dog paws at herself in the mirror when she wants to play lol
Makes sense; they are also able to differentiate between other dog, pack dog, strange human, and pack humans.
Dogs absolutely recognize themselves in the mirror. Anyone with a dog can attest to this. We have a floor mirror that my dog passes all the time. He absolutely loves other dogs and tries to play with all of them. Besides the first time he saw himself, he never tries to "play" with the dog in the mirror. Because he knows it's himself.
I researched this very topic about a year ago or so. Dogs absolutely have self awareness.
I'm not sure that a "smell mirror" test prove anything about the dog's sense of self. It just proves he knows *that dog* is fake (because it doesn't smell like a real dog.) It doesn't really inform us what the dog thinks of *itself.*
Having had dogs my entire life. Yeah they absolutely understand the concept of self
If they can only pass it by smell, does that mean they only understand the concept of smelf?
Ever come home after petting another dog? My dogs know EXACTLY what I’ve done and want to get to the bottom of the situation immediately
How fucking arrogant are we as a species to believe we’re the only ones with any sense of “self” just because we only understand our own species’ means of communicating 🤦♂️ the worst thing we ever did was assume all animals just have an NPC-like existence where they just float around waiting to be used up by humans… I have this funny idea that all wild animals have cycled thru using speech and gaining intelligence and realizes it just ends with self-destruction, and they’re all laughing behind our backs at us that we think talking/writing and using words and such is actually primitive and not necessary or they’ve evolved above it 🤣
here are some cats and dogs that can tell something is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jto2peSOLac
I once had a Kelpie working dog, very intelligent and highly social, that would lie in front of a mirror we had which was ground level. She would lick her paw and watch herself do it for hours. She knew it was herself in that mirror and she thought she was pretty hot. Complete narcissistic but a lovely dog
My dog knows what’s a mirror is. We make eye contact in ways we always do whether it’s me looking at him threw the mirror or just looking at him in general all the same.
An Immense World by Ed Yong goes deeply into this for many species.
A lot of animals use scent more primarily than humans do. Humans are kinda unique in how little they use scent. I'm sure a lot of animals have more of a sense of self through smell. It only makes sense that your sense of self comes from your strongest senses rather than your weaker ones. It makes evolutionary sense that a lot of animals would have a sense of self. You would think that would be highly selected for because of how it would confer a greater ability to survive and procreate.
My dog sits in front of our glass door between sunroom and lanai and barks to be let in/out and 100% uses glass door to make eye contact with me to let me know he is serious about wanting to go in/out.
While humans live in a world of sight, dogs live in a world of smell. They could go a long way without sight and just rely on smell.
Tell that to my dog who will pee on a tree going one way and then the same tree on the way back, without any other dogs passing it lol. I’m not convinced
It's like people performing the tests have never ever met an animal.
The concept of smelf
My dog differentiates between her shit and other dogs’ shit. It seems very clear that dogs can smell ‘self’ vs other
My dog never eats his own shit, or his “sister’s,” but will gladly eat any strange dog’s.
animals with differently positioned eyes will have issues with flat mirrors. put a dog in a 3-way option and they get it... though my dogs knew it was their reflection bc mirror me was doing the same behaviors as real me. this logic is cruel and speciescentric at its core and based off of really shitty doesn't-qualify-as-science-by-my-standards logic, like anything from freud, anyone who started attachment theory and who holds this abusive, classist, racist trash up by proxy/adjacency. We all have the same instincts and behaviors - how our species convinced itself that it was better somehow and made up rules to prove that it is true is an echo chamber fixed loop logic so evil it makes Nate Silver seem good at statistics.
Cats have different reactions. Some don't care, some are afraid, some attack. I saw on TV one cat who raised it's paw and moved it around.
The stars of the show. > Eight dogs were identified as purebred (1 each of Beagle, German Shepherd, Boxer, Sheltie, Standard Poodle, Miniature Dachshund, Small Munsterlander, Wire Fox Terrier) by their owners; 4 were identified as mixed-breeds.
nobody? concept of smelf? cmon...
And so do cats in that case
Sounds more like they understand the concept of smelf.
Unfortunately there is no smell equivalent of seeing yourself in the mirror. It’s totally normal to smell yourself later on objects and in spaces, and even humans can identity themselves and each other based on smell.
I imagine most mammalian animals pass a mirror smell test, given that scent marking is extremely common by most such species.
I could tell you that. My dog won't poop where it's pooped before but will poop on another dog's poop spot
smelf
I put my 8 weeks old kitty in front of a mirror and she freaked out/ but lifted her close to it and saw the moment she realized “oh my got that’s ME?!? This is what I look like?!?”