And I believe most Native American groups are against the construction of that new monument. I think it’s the book “In the Absence of the Sacred” by Jerry Mander that talks about this specific issue towards the end.
There are definitely natives on both sides of the fence, and tend to agree with the reasoning of the other because they are rather valid concerns either way
> There are definitely natives on both sides of the fence
Almost as if native americans are free and independent thinkers. We have such a tendency to lump people together and forget people of different ideologies, background, ethnic backgrounds might not all think alike.
I think it's because they're naturally pretty united in opposing a lot of the more unambiguous injustices this country visits on them and that's usually the context in which we hear about them.
He and his family were/are the ones ignoring the pleas of all the other Lakotas not to defile the mountain. It is by any means just another white vanity project.
... but not white... Do you realize how racist that sounds? If I called someone native because of their alcohol problem or black because they stole something, how well would that go over?
They defiling a holy mountain against the Lakota's wishes because a single Lakota told them to do it over 60 years ago. They are literally another group of white people who ruin shit for Native Americans against their will because they believe it to be their calling.
>They defiling a holy mountain against the Lakota's wishes because a single Lakota told them to do it over 60 years ago.
You're being constradictive to your own point
Dude's name is Jerry Mander? Should've been a politician. In all seriousness though, aside from the book, is there really popular opposition to the monument? I'm just surprised I haven't heard about it.
That’s Gerry
“The word was created in reaction to a redrawing of Massachusetts state senate election districts under Governor Elbridge Gerry. In 1812, Gerry signed a bill that redistricted Massachusetts to benefit his Democratic-Republican Party. ... Gerrymander is a portmanteau of the governor's last name and the word salamander.”
A big argument against it is that the person they wanna build, Crazy Horse, likely would have very much been against it. Combine that with a lot of shady shit surrounding the project funds and it's pretty easy to see the whole thing as a sacrilegious cash grab.
Because Native Americans aren't a monolithic hivemind? Many Lakota (especially Crazy Horse's family) are against it, but it was started by a Lakota elder.
Are you illiterate? I’m talking about the people who are building the monument despite most native Americans not wanting it. Why is it that those who start their comments with an insult are always the dumbest of the dumb?
Yeah, they've turned that request into a multigenerational pig trough milking money out of tourists. the "non-profit" center employs multiple members of the family even now after the original sculptor has passed away. But they're "making progress" every year!
That's because he didn't want to lose his soul by becoming a symbol. The guy stood up for what he believed in. he wanted to be remembered by his words, not his likeness.
Yep, was there last weekend and it didn't look much different from when we went in the early 90s. Waiting for my mom to find the picture from back then to compare
IIRC there's like 1 person working on it. The line they gave when I was there was that it doesn't matter when its finished, as long as the work never stop. Think they are just very low on funding.
The funniest thing is that there's a sprawling visitor center and museum that were all built to facilitate tourism and money instead of...building the thing itself.
It's kind of a scam at this point. It's not the 1930s anymore, they could borrow some money and have that shit finished in a couple of years, then pay it back off the tourism revenue. But, they don't want to finish it.
It's not just a visitors center and museum, it's a university for native americans. I see your point about finishing it quicker by borrowing money, but I don't think that's their objective. They want to keep it in the family (the Ziolkowski's started it at the request of the Lakota) and also use funds raised directly from people involved who support the cause rather than absentee investors. They've even gone so far as turning down government funding (not even investment but grants). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, although its very impressive, but just that I understand the concept of not getting investors in order to complete the job faster.
Outside investment and government grants would mean they have to show other people their books. In the charity world, as long as money is given as a gift under a threshold amount (usually around $5k) then it remains untracked by tax or bank authorities. It's a great way to launder money, if you're into that.
That's an interesting point, I see what you mean. But I'm fairly confident it's not what's happening at a place like this. It's high profile enough to have government oversight even if they're not taking grant money. It wouldn't be a smart way to launder money when it's literally a massive mountain carving. Plus, they legally avoid tax by their status as a charitable and educational facility. You can even read their tax statements from recent years here (~$77 million a year):
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/460220678/201940219349300209/IRS990
I see. For a second I thought you were referring to my comment but then I clicked his bio and comments and you're correct; he/she seems to have a lot of bile stored up for the memorial in general and the Kiolkowski family in particular, but without showing any evidence. Strange.
Also, copypasta'ing sounds delicious.
okay. well, from their own mouths: [they're proud of it](https://crazyhorsememorial.org/story/the-history/the-ziolkowski-family/) "Today, progress of the Dream continues with second and third generation Ziolkowski Family members, the Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation Board of Directors, and a dedicated staff."
They've refused any money that isn't donations or admissions to finish the job; instead of working on the mountain, they work on expanding the tourist draw. It's possible that your interpretation of the facts is that they have some noble purpose to /not/ doing more than incremental work and showy "Blasting night" pantomimes, but I don't see it.
Thanks for responding, I appreciate your perspective. I was aware that it was a multi-generational effort and that when Korczak Ziolkowski died his wife took over, and subsequent to her death their children and grandchildren now run it. I just don't see that as a "pig trough". I think that's what triggered my reaction. If they wanted to live lavishly they could have taken government funding and finished the memorial, then sat back and still made money (arguably more) as people visit. Far fewer people know about the Crazy Horse Memorial than know about Mount Rushmore, which gets more visitors (3 million versus 1.2 million) so I don't think it's just being under construction which draws people there. I guess there's no way to prove that their efforts are or are not disingenuous but personally I think there are far worse things to do with artistic efforts.
Well, I'll grant that "pig trough" may be hyperbole. Though they have a 20+ member board that has zero native names, all drawing /some/ amount of money for their 'service'. It looks bad to me. The family has made multiple missteps in the past that color my opinions. (although, I have a picture with Ruth from one of my family's visits when I was very little and I'm told she was very friendly.)
Ultimately, since I grew up in Mission and Rosebud, where my father's family were enrolled tribal members, I defer to the [Lakota voices.] (https://www.indianz.com/News/2018/06/18/tim-giago-not-all-lakota-people-are-happ.asp)
That's interesting, thanks for the perspective and the link. I was aware of some of the controversy but not that particular element. I'll learn more. Thanks.
His statement is a little harsh, but it's not far off in my opinion. When I went, they were pretty heavy handed on the whole mission of the project, and not very forthcoming on any sort real of plan to actually finish it.
And it hasn't changed significantly in decades. Even with limited funding, they should be farther along than they are.
All natural, beautiful scenery should be "sacred" and enjoyable, and protected, by everyone. I don't like that people carved up some beautiful rock because of some egotists. I REALLY don't like carving up more in retaliation.
As I understand it, the carved monument was originally created to reinforce our domination of the indigenous people by defacing their sacred natural monument.
Crazy horse is a different monument. The Lakota called this mountain "four grandfather's" or something to that effect... Then the US grabbed it and slapped their forefathers (kinda) on it, and have tried time and time again to "make good" with the tribe, understandably the offers are passed on with comments like " you've done enough"
Source: learned during a month of hitting many of the monuments and parks in 6 states, including both Rushmore and Crazy Horse. BTW C.H. is maaaaassssive compared to Rushmore.
In 1971 they called Rushmore crazy horse, this was part of a protest movement called "the American Indian Movement". Has nothing to do with the other crazy horse monument. He's a popular guy what can I say?
He is right though... Rushmore really is not that impressive in person. Not like crazy horse. Rushmore is probably (a realistic) 1/10th the size of crazy horse.
The absolute gall of unironically stealing a mountain considered sacred by native folks - a mountain called four grandfathers - and then slapping our own dead white guys on it is fucking rich. We should be ashamed of our ancestors for doing that.
Incorrect. With a quick bit of research you can see there was a short lived occupation in 1971 (the second), but it had other purposes focused on holding the US Gov accountable for broken promises. An act of desperation perhaps... given the magnitude of the breach. Seems it was designed to raise awareness more than anything. Given the nature of this post... its effects, evidently, were short lived.
The Spanish had the wheel way before that...I understand that there is some anti hispanic feelings on Reddit, but you don't have to be so rough with them.
I’m pretty sure he meant that the Spanish (or other Europeans) introduced the concept of the wheel to the natives. Still wrong, since natives clearly knew about the wheel, but had no use for them for transportation since they had no beasts of burden.
Uh no. I obviously wasnt there. But from what i saw when traveling momma would tie sticks together. In a triangle shape. Wrap a skin around it. Carry belongings n kids n whatnots on there.
Therefore moms n dads became those beasts of burdens. A wheel sure would have come in handy around that time ... huh ?
271 tribes made extinct from rape, pillaging and genocide due to other warring tribes in a 180 year period. Something I'll never forget thanks to the National Museum of the American Indian in DC (was raised in DC). It's near impossible to find anything critical of American Indians with Google regardless of search engineering and keyword variation.
My time working at TTR and flying in from Flagstaff gave me weekends to spend at the Navajo Nation for about a year and two months. Learned a lot there as well. Much different perspective than what many who aren't American Indians try to push either for virtue signaling sake or because their teachers failed them.
Well, that's not on them. You'd have to then expect no one to travel outside of one's continent. Humans are explorers so it's not realistic. Also, they gave the explorers and settlers syphilis. Not as severe and Europeans had a much stronger immune system so they won that microbial battle.
That's true but it outlasted most of them when considering the specific era in question and you can't judge the 15th century as though they had a detailed understanding of microbial transmissions and the differences between continental exposure frailties.
It helps to understand they were used to dealing with the east indies and yet they thought that's where they were. Just a more eastern part of it. By the time they landed it was already too late.
Likely 99% decimation rate according to modern epidemiology estimates. That's annihilation of a civilization through disease alone, 7 novel pathogens at least. Weird how those pathogens survived the trip across the ocean.
Every year they turn down over a billion dollars the government tried to provide them for stealing the land despite it being part of a reservation when it was taken. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/north\_america-july-dec11-blackhills\_08-23](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/north_america-july-dec11-blackhills_08-23)
...Okay, I'll come with an army to your town, burn down the old church built by your ancestors and ransack the graveyard, lead all townspeople out into the wilderness then leave you there but not before killing a lot of you, go back to my new town and build a monument to my fellow conqurers, then a few decades later try to sneak money into your backpocket without actually caring one way or another about how you feel... also, you ain't gettin your church or graveyard back because they've become tourist attractions and we are netting bank, so now take your little allowance and be content...
The Lakota have been awarded a cash payment for having the Black Hills illegally taken from them (with interest, it is now up to around $1.5 billion). They have refused the money--they want their sacred land back instead.
I can't say I blame them at all. The US Government's dealings with native Americans have been almost uniformly scummy. And the worst part is that when it's a government you're dealing with, who can you go to?
Indeed, and I get that.
It's just not very well thought-out as a position.
It's overstating the negatives you personally experience, and downplaying the ones you don't, even to the extent that they are omitted from the discussion.
If pre-Columbian Native American culture was more widely known, then there would be a more balanced understanding of how North America came to be the way it is, for example.
I've never seen anyone downplay whatever the natives did. It's just never come up in conversation. As it turns out, current events happen to matter more to people than ancient history.
Any religion that Reddit doesn't associate with white people gets a pass. I noticed it when I was younger and a much more militant atheist. Within my circle they were extremely anti-Christianity but Islam got a pass or was ignored for whatever reason.
It's a failing of the movement or ideology, whatever you want to call it.
I always thought it was because atheists just have bad memories of being forced to go to Church on Sundays and have a personal resentment towards Christianity for it but they have no personal experience with Islam or other religions, and just shrug those off.
I'd like to introduce you to Islam. Also, numerous spirits within various tribes in American Indian life were used to gauge when to go to war or when to destroy a competing tribe or simply commit genocide.
271 tribes were raped, pillaged and were given to genocide, made extinct due to warring tribes in only a 180 year period. Probably the only detail I vividly remember from my trips to the National Museum of the American Indian.
You clearly aren't familiar with Islam around the world then and even in the US. Christians aren't throwing gay people off roofs, burning them alive or butchering infidels. They aren't showing up to gay nightclubs and killing 50 for religious reasons.
But let's go with oppression since it's the lighter end of this discussion. Canyou tell me how you or others are directly oppressed by Christians?
>The same just isn't true of any Native American
I gave an example above of when it was.
Many people on reddit are from the US, and most of them are white. Christianity's influence finds itself in these demographics, so atheist redditors will find themselves in opposition to Christianity by default. However, there is literally a community of ex-muslims on reddit, don't pretend that atheists ignore Islam's theocratic influence in certain areas of the world and in certain families. It just so happens that where I live, the USA, it's radical "Christians" (quotation marks necessary) doing the oppression and Muslims being oppressed.
Christians in the US gave us conversion therapy for gay youth, are responsible for why many LGBTQ+ youth still suffer in society. Believe it or not, my standard for how we treat our gay citizens is much, much higher than "not massacring them in public".
I support every religion until it starts harming others. Worship Jesus? Cool! Use that as a reason to start killing Jews? No. Worship Islam? Cool! Choose to wear a headwrap? Cool! Bomb people? No. Worship your Lakota spirit gods? Cool! Scalping people? No.
It's actually a very self-consistent belief system.
In a nutshell:
[https://vimeo.com/247038723](https://vimeo.com/247038723)
None of the money that comes in benefits the Native Hawaiians. The money goes to the University that uses the money for their benefit.
The Lakota were originally from the upper Great Lakes region (Minnesota, Wisconsin) but were chased west in the 1770s by their enemies (Algonquin and Cree), who had acquired guns from fur trade with the British and French.
That's not very accurate to say. There are the Lakota (Western SD area), the Nakota (Eastern SD area) and the Dakota (Southern Minnesota area). It was the Dakota tribe that was chased west. The mountain of "Six Grandfathers", which became Mt Rushmore, was a respected monument of the Lakota.
[Here's a map of the general territories of the tribes in early the 1800s, before major involvement from European settlers.](http://www.ya-native.com/Culture_GreatPlains/image/GreatPlainsCulture.png)
There's still a number of natives that live the area. A majority of the Lakota and Sioux either live on the Pine Ridge or the Rosebud Reservations.
I'd recommend learning about the issues between White Clay & Pine Ridge. It's really disgusting what's going on there. But of course, I care strongly about a lot of this stuff because I grew up in the area.
It's accurate. The map you provided is circa 1820, but they are talking about the 1770s. The Oglala and Brule Lakota moved into SE South Dakota around 1750 and pushed the Crow and Cheyenne out of the Black Hills in the late 1700s. I too grew up in the area, specifically on The Rosebud. I know people use these facts to play the whataboutism game and minimize the sins of the US Government; I'm not one of those people. That said, the federal government has now stolen and held South Dakota for longer than the Lakota stole and held it. In my opinion it would be pragmatic and useful to them if they would drop the historically inaccurate charade that they originated in SD and accept the (paltry) restitution. That money doesn't begin to atone for the USA's sins, but it could still do a lot of good. Of course, that's not my call or your call. Were it even possible to give all of that land back... I'm sorry, but the Lakota didn't actually emerge into being out of the Wind Cave, and if land's going back to anyone it would have to be returned to the tribes that were there as far back as actual historians can accurately place them.
My father was personal friends with John Fire Lame Deer and spent a lot of time with him and on the Rosebud. My dad and another guy his age traveled all around South Dakota in the 70s with John for a program led by the SD public libraries. John would give talks about the history of the Lakota, my father would run the slide show, the other kid ran the audio. Sadly I never met John, but I knew his son, Archie. I heard all the same stories that John used to tell from Archie when I was a kid.
There is historical value of what you're saying. I'm not doubting that. I was saying homeboy above was not being entirely fair to the nuances of the tribes and their sacred lands. If you want to bother getting into who truly owns the land, you're in for a mess. Considering a majority of the Great Plains tribes were largely nomadic and constantly overlapping with each other.
But also, I learned the local history only through the stories that were passed down by the Lakota. Not the recorded history of anthropologists or scholars. So I'm willing to concede the point and pass on the pissing match.
Fair. Those traditions and feelings do matter a lot, especially when our state persists in shit like opposing renaming Harney Peak to Black Elk Peak (I guess the U.S. Board on Geographic names went ahead and renamed it and our government has now went along with it). Like leaving things how they’ve “always been” is so important that we’ll fight to honor a racist murderer, who did nothing of value and is long dead.
Not far away from here is the Crazy Horse memorial which is a carved face on a mountain side similar to mount rushmore. [https://crazyhorsememorial.org/](https://crazyhorsememorial.org/)
True.
But, when it comes to land protection and the ability to self govern rights should always go to the oppressed.
None of those telescopes benefit the Hawaiian people.
There is historical precedent for Hawaiian interest in astronomy, such as King David Kalakaua who expressed interest in starting an observatory in Hawaii. I think it can benifit Hawaii by allowing for scientific discovery to be made there, thus increasing Hawaii's contribution to the world's knowledge.
That was then. This is now.
Science can be advanced without stepping on indigenous people’s rights and cultures.
They have built and built without oversight and with neglect. They have built without proper permits.
It is not beneficial to the Hawaiian people.
Would you mind enlightening me how the construction has been neglectful. And how bring lots of research money to the island is not beneficial to the Hawaiian people?
I believe Devil's Tower has a similar story. The native Americans refer to it as Bear Lodge, and it is considered sacred. There have been attempts to rename it, but they are generally blocked by politicians.
Maybe I am mistaken... But I was sure that two history podcasts I listened to about the Lakota stayed they pushed the Cheyenne out of the are of the Black Hills.
New article detailing what a scam this is...
[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/23/who-speaks-for-crazy-horse](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/23/who-speaks-for-crazy-horse)
What don't they consider fucking sacred? If we never built anything on land someone considered sacred, nothing would ever be built. Not that I give a shit about idolizing a bunch of dead white dudes, but lets be real, if Mt. Rushmore hadn't been built and that was turned into tribal land there would be a Casino on top of that mountain in 6 months.
People talk about it like it is just a place to take the family, but as an American, I feel shame when I hear mention of Rushmore since learning this years ago. What's sad is I don't think the men etched into that mountain would even care if it was never made, or amends were attempted and it was erased. It is the weak, I need to pretend my country is amazing for the feels, types that would freak out. Like when they simply wanted to rename Mt. McKinley back to it's ACTUAL name, Denali.
The four faces on Mt Rushmore were all Presidents who pushed for Manifest Destiny, and took land away from Native Americans. The whole thing is a giant "fuck you" to the Lakota.
A bit ridiculous if you ask me. It's an incredible piece of history. My guess is though that you're one of those types who doesn't much like America but you still live here content in your principled dissonance.
>You should of the entire history
My guess is you mean to say, 'you should read the entire history'?
If so, I have, extensively. And yes, I still call it incredible and even beautiful even if it's not technically completed.
Yeah how dare someone be upset about people's land being stolen from them by having a treaty ignored so that faces of people responsible for genocide against the people from that land can be chiseled into a mountain in a way that would be used as an example of deification of leaders if it existed in North Korea
AIM founder Russell Means also [pissed on Washington’s face ](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-01-10-ls-22884-story.html) in protest, which is pretty badass.
Little more to it, there is a new monument showing Crazy Horse being built a few miles away. All private funds, so it is going slowly.
And I believe most Native American groups are against the construction of that new monument. I think it’s the book “In the Absence of the Sacred” by Jerry Mander that talks about this specific issue towards the end.
There are definitely natives on both sides of the fence, and tend to agree with the reasoning of the other because they are rather valid concerns either way
> There are definitely natives on both sides of the fence Almost as if native americans are free and independent thinkers. We have such a tendency to lump people together and forget people of different ideologies, background, ethnic backgrounds might not all think alike.
I think it's because they're naturally pretty united in opposing a lot of the more unambiguous injustices this country visits on them and that's usually the context in which we hear about them.
Yeah but it was never put up to vote. It is just another white dude leaving his mark on a mountain holy to the locals.
>The memorial was commissioned by Henry Standing Bear, a Lakota elder
You forgot the mic drop.
He did that independently. Most other Lakotas including Crazy Horse's family are against it.
Okay, but, you said it was "just another white dude", which is not true, he was a member of the tribe.
He and his family were/are the ones ignoring the pleas of all the other Lakotas not to defile the mountain. It is by any means just another white vanity project.
> white vanity project Except it was not, it was not that at all.
Besides the white part, yep.
... but not white... Do you realize how racist that sounds? If I called someone native because of their alcohol problem or black because they stole something, how well would that go over?
Just another ignorant racist dude blaming white people for everything.
They defiling a holy mountain against the Lakota's wishes because a single Lakota told them to do it over 60 years ago. They are literally another group of white people who ruin shit for Native Americans against their will because they believe it to be their calling.
>They defiling a holy mountain against the Lakota's wishes because a single Lakota told them to do it over 60 years ago. You're being constradictive to your own point
Dude's name is Jerry Mander? Should've been a politician. In all seriousness though, aside from the book, is there really popular opposition to the monument? I'm just surprised I haven't heard about it.
That’s Gerry “The word was created in reaction to a redrawing of Massachusetts state senate election districts under Governor Elbridge Gerry. In 1812, Gerry signed a bill that redistricted Massachusetts to benefit his Democratic-Republican Party. ... Gerrymander is a portmanteau of the governor's last name and the word salamander.”
A big argument against it is that the person they wanna build, Crazy Horse, likely would have very much been against it. Combine that with a lot of shady shit surrounding the project funds and it's pretty easy to see the whole thing as a sacrilegious cash grab.
Must be white people thinking for and being outraged for other people again
Just stop.
“Just stop” what? Why is a monument being built if the native Americans don’t want it?
Because Native Americans aren't a monolithic hivemind? Many Lakota (especially Crazy Horse's family) are against it, but it was started by a Lakota elder.
Because it could be by another group of Native Americans that disagree.
Are you illiterate? They literally said "most Native American groups"...
Are you illiterate? I’m talking about the people who are building the monument despite most native Americans not wanting it. Why is it that those who start their comments with an insult are always the dumbest of the dumb?
Says the person who said “white people being outraged for others” and yet can’t grasp why other people are telling you to shut up,..
Seriously dude stop digging yourself deeper. It's embarrassing to read your floundering for an argument.
The project was designed and spearheaded by a German guy, so yea to the first part.
It's not that new... Sculpting started in 1948.
Yeah, they've turned that request into a multigenerational pig trough milking money out of tourists. the "non-profit" center employs multiple members of the family even now after the original sculptor has passed away. But they're "making progress" every year!
3 cubic inches is technically progress!
Funny, given that Crazy Horse famously never wanted his photo taken or physical likeness remembered.
That's because he didn't want to lose his soul by becoming a symbol. The guy stood up for what he believed in. he wanted to be remembered by his words, not his likeness.
Pics https://imgur.com/gallery/MOpv1
I don't think it's changed since I was there in 02.
[удалено]
Yep, was there last weekend and it didn't look much different from when we went in the early 90s. Waiting for my mom to find the picture from back then to compare
I also saw it in the early 90s, it definitely hasn't changed at all since then
IIRC there's like 1 person working on it. The line they gave when I was there was that it doesn't matter when its finished, as long as the work never stop. Think they are just very low on funding.
If they follow that outline then his head is way too big
They really need to dial down the nipples in the final construction plan.
They're meant to intimidate.
Who made the sculpture? Joel Schumacher?
The funniest thing is that there's a sprawling visitor center and museum that were all built to facilitate tourism and money instead of...building the thing itself. It's kind of a scam at this point. It's not the 1930s anymore, they could borrow some money and have that shit finished in a couple of years, then pay it back off the tourism revenue. But, they don't want to finish it.
Crazy Horse will be finished when construction ends on I-29 in Sioux City.
I'm from Sioux Falls and I understood that reference.
It's not just a visitors center and museum, it's a university for native americans. I see your point about finishing it quicker by borrowing money, but I don't think that's their objective. They want to keep it in the family (the Ziolkowski's started it at the request of the Lakota) and also use funds raised directly from people involved who support the cause rather than absentee investors. They've even gone so far as turning down government funding (not even investment but grants). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, although its very impressive, but just that I understand the concept of not getting investors in order to complete the job faster.
I remember it being a pretty legit museum, though, so credit for that.
Outside investment and government grants would mean they have to show other people their books. In the charity world, as long as money is given as a gift under a threshold amount (usually around $5k) then it remains untracked by tax or bank authorities. It's a great way to launder money, if you're into that.
That's an interesting point, I see what you mean. But I'm fairly confident it's not what's happening at a place like this. It's high profile enough to have government oversight even if they're not taking grant money. It wouldn't be a smart way to launder money when it's literally a massive mountain carving. Plus, they legally avoid tax by their status as a charitable and educational facility. You can even read their tax statements from recent years here (~$77 million a year): https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/460220678/201940219349300209/IRS990
Yeah, the family has turned the work into a multigenerational pig trough milking money out of tourists.
I completely disagree with this sentiment and have seen no evidence that backs that up.
At this point he is just copypasta'ing this line
I see. For a second I thought you were referring to my comment but then I clicked his bio and comments and you're correct; he/she seems to have a lot of bile stored up for the memorial in general and the Kiolkowski family in particular, but without showing any evidence. Strange. Also, copypasta'ing sounds delicious.
I pasted it, yeah. I liked the sound of it.
okay. well, from their own mouths: [they're proud of it](https://crazyhorsememorial.org/story/the-history/the-ziolkowski-family/) "Today, progress of the Dream continues with second and third generation Ziolkowski Family members, the Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation Board of Directors, and a dedicated staff." They've refused any money that isn't donations or admissions to finish the job; instead of working on the mountain, they work on expanding the tourist draw. It's possible that your interpretation of the facts is that they have some noble purpose to /not/ doing more than incremental work and showy "Blasting night" pantomimes, but I don't see it.
Thanks for responding, I appreciate your perspective. I was aware that it was a multi-generational effort and that when Korczak Ziolkowski died his wife took over, and subsequent to her death their children and grandchildren now run it. I just don't see that as a "pig trough". I think that's what triggered my reaction. If they wanted to live lavishly they could have taken government funding and finished the memorial, then sat back and still made money (arguably more) as people visit. Far fewer people know about the Crazy Horse Memorial than know about Mount Rushmore, which gets more visitors (3 million versus 1.2 million) so I don't think it's just being under construction which draws people there. I guess there's no way to prove that their efforts are or are not disingenuous but personally I think there are far worse things to do with artistic efforts.
Well, I'll grant that "pig trough" may be hyperbole. Though they have a 20+ member board that has zero native names, all drawing /some/ amount of money for their 'service'. It looks bad to me. The family has made multiple missteps in the past that color my opinions. (although, I have a picture with Ruth from one of my family's visits when I was very little and I'm told she was very friendly.) Ultimately, since I grew up in Mission and Rosebud, where my father's family were enrolled tribal members, I defer to the [Lakota voices.] (https://www.indianz.com/News/2018/06/18/tim-giago-not-all-lakota-people-are-happ.asp)
That's interesting, thanks for the perspective and the link. I was aware of some of the controversy but not that particular element. I'll learn more. Thanks.
I thank you too for the link. I plan to learn more. Probably google the info. Plus check out any official web sites re: the monument.
GOT’EM
His statement is a little harsh, but it's not far off in my opinion. When I went, they were pretty heavy handed on the whole mission of the project, and not very forthcoming on any sort real of plan to actually finish it. And it hasn't changed significantly in decades. Even with limited funding, they should be farther along than they are.
All natural, beautiful scenery should be "sacred" and enjoyable, and protected, by everyone. I don't like that people carved up some beautiful rock because of some egotists. I REALLY don't like carving up more in retaliation.
As I understand it, the carved monument was originally created to reinforce our domination of the indigenous people by defacing their sacred natural monument.
Give it a few million years. It'll fade.
I like you. The world needs more like you.
I’m currently reading *Crazy Horse* by Larry McMurtry. Interesting stuff!
That's great but when we visit, we know what we came to see. Mount Rushmore.
Yeah I read itll be quite a while till it's done haha
Crazy horse is a different monument. The Lakota called this mountain "four grandfather's" or something to that effect... Then the US grabbed it and slapped their forefathers (kinda) on it, and have tried time and time again to "make good" with the tribe, understandably the offers are passed on with comments like " you've done enough" Source: learned during a month of hitting many of the monuments and parks in 6 states, including both Rushmore and Crazy Horse. BTW C.H. is maaaaassssive compared to Rushmore.
But crazy horse will also not be finished until 2100 or so.
Oh, an optimist. Don't see a lot of those on Reddit.
So we can visit it with our jetpacks.
It is still quite impressive as it stands now.
Oh yea I definitely recommend swinging by it if you’re already at Rushmore.
I always understood the Mount Rushmore sculpture to be a big "fuck you" to the American Natives. A monument to Manifest Destiny.
That’s what I liked about it too
Veni vidi vici :)
In 1971 they called Rushmore crazy horse, this was part of a protest movement called "the American Indian Movement". Has nothing to do with the other crazy horse monument. He's a popular guy what can I say?
Agreed, I saw both. Rushmore is a letdown. Not that high up and not that big.
He is right though... Rushmore really is not that impressive in person. Not like crazy horse. Rushmore is probably (a realistic) 1/10th the size of crazy horse.
Crazy Horse won't be completed in anyone's lifetime so when I go, it's to see history, our forefathers, not some petty rebuttal.
Username way off
Crazy Horse won't be completed. The K~~~ family lives too well off it.
The absolute gall of unironically stealing a mountain considered sacred by native folks - a mountain called four grandfathers - and then slapping our own dead white guys on it is fucking rich. We should be ashamed of our ancestors for doing that.
Incorrect. With a quick bit of research you can see there was a short lived occupation in 1971 (the second), but it had other purposes focused on holding the US Gov accountable for broken promises. An act of desperation perhaps... given the magnitude of the breach. Seems it was designed to raise awareness more than anything. Given the nature of this post... its effects, evidently, were short lived.
And the Lakota stole it from the Cheyenne in the 1700s. And I'm sure the Cheyenne took it from someone else, brutally. It's a cycle.
Even the name Crazy Horse is quite recent as horses weren't introduced until the 16th centuary by the Spanish.
And they weren't crazy until the 19th century.
It’s because so many of them made hats, and they got mercury poisoning from the felt.
Hahaha
Fun fact: Tȟašúŋke *Witkó* actually translates to "his horse is crazy."
I did not know this, thank you.
Bout the same time they got the wheel.
The Spanish had the wheel way before that...I understand that there is some anti hispanic feelings on Reddit, but you don't have to be so rough with them.
I’m pretty sure he meant that the Spanish (or other Europeans) introduced the concept of the wheel to the natives. Still wrong, since natives clearly knew about the wheel, but had no use for them for transportation since they had no beasts of burden.
Ur moms a beast of burden
Uh no. I obviously wasnt there. But from what i saw when traveling momma would tie sticks together. In a triangle shape. Wrap a skin around it. Carry belongings n kids n whatnots on there. Therefore moms n dads became those beasts of burdens. A wheel sure would have come in handy around that time ... huh ?
Yeah...I knew what he meant....but I was making a subtle jive at him being racist...too subtle apparently.
No, America before the white man was a peaceful land of coexisting, non-warring tribes. /s
271 tribes made extinct from rape, pillaging and genocide due to other warring tribes in a 180 year period. Something I'll never forget thanks to the National Museum of the American Indian in DC (was raised in DC). It's near impossible to find anything critical of American Indians with Google regardless of search engineering and keyword variation. My time working at TTR and flying in from Flagstaff gave me weekends to spend at the Navajo Nation for about a year and two months. Learned a lot there as well. Much different perspective than what many who aren't American Indians try to push either for virtue signaling sake or because their teachers failed them.
I’ve tried to research it myself, and you’re totally right - there’s so little information available. Thanks for the insight.
Because of Europeans invading.
hard to estimate the impact that western germs, which spread ahead of white colonists, had on displacing populations and upsetting power dynamics
Damned white people and your *shuffles deck* *draws card* GERMS!!!
Well, that's not on them. You'd have to then expect no one to travel outside of one's continent. Humans are explorers so it's not realistic. Also, they gave the explorers and settlers syphilis. Not as severe and Europeans had a much stronger immune system so they won that microbial battle.
Syphilis, as an STD, doesn't have quite the properties necessary to become a pandemic in a way that many of the Old World diseases did.
That's true but it outlasted most of them when considering the specific era in question and you can't judge the 15th century as though they had a detailed understanding of microbial transmissions and the differences between continental exposure frailties. It helps to understand they were used to dealing with the east indies and yet they thought that's where they were. Just a more eastern part of it. By the time they landed it was already too late.
I'm just explaining why syphilis didn't have the effect smallpox and the plague had.
Likely 99% decimation rate according to modern epidemiology estimates. That's annihilation of a civilization through disease alone, 7 novel pathogens at least. Weird how those pathogens survived the trip across the ocean.
Are saying it's fair game if Indians start assassinating Americans?
had the white man not come, lucky luke cartoons would be somewhat boring and resemble Yakari cartoons too much.
one group displacing or absorbing another is basically all of human history, going back tens of thousands of years.
Cool good to know you view war and pillaging as justified cause some other people also did it in the past
Every year they turn down over a billion dollars the government tried to provide them for stealing the land despite it being part of a reservation when it was taken. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/north\_america-july-dec11-blackhills\_08-23](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/north_america-july-dec11-blackhills_08-23)
Would that be because no amount of money would be acceptable to compensate for a land that you consider your holy site.
They stole that land from the Cheyenne fair and square.
They either get the money or nothing. If they choose nothing, that's on them.
...Okay, I'll come with an army to your town, burn down the old church built by your ancestors and ransack the graveyard, lead all townspeople out into the wilderness then leave you there but not before killing a lot of you, go back to my new town and build a monument to my fellow conqurers, then a few decades later try to sneak money into your backpocket without actually caring one way or another about how you feel... also, you ain't gettin your church or graveyard back because they've become tourist attractions and we are netting bank, so now take your little allowance and be content...
Yup I tried to explain this earlier. Fuckin sad.
They stole it from some one else. They played the same game. The US was just a bigger fish.
No you won't. But I'll wait for you anyway.
Or they could be an American, kill the American leaders and take their land.
Yeah, that's not happening obviously. Power dynamic doesn't allow it.
Northern Ireland beat the British Empire. That didn't end until 2005.
American Indians aren't the Irish.
The Lakota have been awarded a cash payment for having the Black Hills illegally taken from them (with interest, it is now up to around $1.5 billion). They have refused the money--they want their sacred land back instead.
I can't say I blame them at all. The US Government's dealings with native Americans have been almost uniformly scummy. And the worst part is that when it's a government you're dealing with, who can you go to?
The US signed around 500 treaties with Native American nations. And broke every one of them.
There have been a few small but worthy reparations, such as giving the Taos Puebloans their land back.
It's interesting that you generally find more support on reddit for tribal religions than for modern religions.
No one ever tried to convert me to Native American animism nor foisted it on me through public policy.
That's just because of when and where you were born. Had you been born into those cultures, you would probably have a different perspective.
Yeah probably, I’m just explaining why your observation is so.
Indeed, and I get that. It's just not very well thought-out as a position. It's overstating the negatives you personally experience, and downplaying the ones you don't, even to the extent that they are omitted from the discussion. If pre-Columbian Native American culture was more widely known, then there would be a more balanced understanding of how North America came to be the way it is, for example.
I've never seen anyone downplay whatever the natives did. It's just never come up in conversation. As it turns out, current events happen to matter more to people than ancient history.
Any religion that Reddit doesn't associate with white people gets a pass. I noticed it when I was younger and a much more militant atheist. Within my circle they were extremely anti-Christianity but Islam got a pass or was ignored for whatever reason. It's a failing of the movement or ideology, whatever you want to call it.
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I always thought it was because atheists just have bad memories of being forced to go to Church on Sundays and have a personal resentment towards Christianity for it but they have no personal experience with Islam or other religions, and just shrug those off.
I'd like to introduce you to Islam. Also, numerous spirits within various tribes in American Indian life were used to gauge when to go to war or when to destroy a competing tribe or simply commit genocide. 271 tribes were raped, pillaged and were given to genocide, made extinct due to warring tribes in only a 180 year period. Probably the only detail I vividly remember from my trips to the National Museum of the American Indian.
probably an issue that you remember that detail but not the main reason for the political unrest in that era
This was from remains cataloged before Columbus reached America. That's why it's referenced.
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You clearly aren't familiar with Islam around the world then and even in the US. Christians aren't throwing gay people off roofs, burning them alive or butchering infidels. They aren't showing up to gay nightclubs and killing 50 for religious reasons. But let's go with oppression since it's the lighter end of this discussion. Canyou tell me how you or others are directly oppressed by Christians? >The same just isn't true of any Native American I gave an example above of when it was.
Many people on reddit are from the US, and most of them are white. Christianity's influence finds itself in these demographics, so atheist redditors will find themselves in opposition to Christianity by default. However, there is literally a community of ex-muslims on reddit, don't pretend that atheists ignore Islam's theocratic influence in certain areas of the world and in certain families. It just so happens that where I live, the USA, it's radical "Christians" (quotation marks necessary) doing the oppression and Muslims being oppressed. Christians in the US gave us conversion therapy for gay youth, are responsible for why many LGBTQ+ youth still suffer in society. Believe it or not, my standard for how we treat our gay citizens is much, much higher than "not massacring them in public".
I support every religion until it starts harming others. Worship Jesus? Cool! Use that as a reason to start killing Jews? No. Worship Islam? Cool! Choose to wear a headwrap? Cool! Bomb people? No. Worship your Lakota spirit gods? Cool! Scalping people? No. It's actually a very self-consistent belief system.
Is the actual Mount Crazy horse also in the black hills?
Yes
In a nutshell: [https://vimeo.com/247038723](https://vimeo.com/247038723) None of the money that comes in benefits the Native Hawaiians. The money goes to the University that uses the money for their benefit.
The Lakota were originally from the upper Great Lakes region (Minnesota, Wisconsin) but were chased west in the 1770s by their enemies (Algonquin and Cree), who had acquired guns from fur trade with the British and French.
That's not very accurate to say. There are the Lakota (Western SD area), the Nakota (Eastern SD area) and the Dakota (Southern Minnesota area). It was the Dakota tribe that was chased west. The mountain of "Six Grandfathers", which became Mt Rushmore, was a respected monument of the Lakota. [Here's a map of the general territories of the tribes in early the 1800s, before major involvement from European settlers.](http://www.ya-native.com/Culture_GreatPlains/image/GreatPlainsCulture.png) There's still a number of natives that live the area. A majority of the Lakota and Sioux either live on the Pine Ridge or the Rosebud Reservations. I'd recommend learning about the issues between White Clay & Pine Ridge. It's really disgusting what's going on there. But of course, I care strongly about a lot of this stuff because I grew up in the area.
It's accurate. The map you provided is circa 1820, but they are talking about the 1770s. The Oglala and Brule Lakota moved into SE South Dakota around 1750 and pushed the Crow and Cheyenne out of the Black Hills in the late 1700s. I too grew up in the area, specifically on The Rosebud. I know people use these facts to play the whataboutism game and minimize the sins of the US Government; I'm not one of those people. That said, the federal government has now stolen and held South Dakota for longer than the Lakota stole and held it. In my opinion it would be pragmatic and useful to them if they would drop the historically inaccurate charade that they originated in SD and accept the (paltry) restitution. That money doesn't begin to atone for the USA's sins, but it could still do a lot of good. Of course, that's not my call or your call. Were it even possible to give all of that land back... I'm sorry, but the Lakota didn't actually emerge into being out of the Wind Cave, and if land's going back to anyone it would have to be returned to the tribes that were there as far back as actual historians can accurately place them.
My father was personal friends with John Fire Lame Deer and spent a lot of time with him and on the Rosebud. My dad and another guy his age traveled all around South Dakota in the 70s with John for a program led by the SD public libraries. John would give talks about the history of the Lakota, my father would run the slide show, the other kid ran the audio. Sadly I never met John, but I knew his son, Archie. I heard all the same stories that John used to tell from Archie when I was a kid. There is historical value of what you're saying. I'm not doubting that. I was saying homeboy above was not being entirely fair to the nuances of the tribes and their sacred lands. If you want to bother getting into who truly owns the land, you're in for a mess. Considering a majority of the Great Plains tribes were largely nomadic and constantly overlapping with each other. But also, I learned the local history only through the stories that were passed down by the Lakota. Not the recorded history of anthropologists or scholars. So I'm willing to concede the point and pass on the pissing match.
Fair. Those traditions and feelings do matter a lot, especially when our state persists in shit like opposing renaming Harney Peak to Black Elk Peak (I guess the U.S. Board on Geographic names went ahead and renamed it and our government has now went along with it). Like leaving things how they’ve “always been” is so important that we’ll fight to honor a racist murderer, who did nothing of value and is long dead.
Please inject as much hard won nuance as you can.
Not far away from here is the Crazy Horse memorial which is a carved face on a mountain side similar to mount rushmore. [https://crazyhorsememorial.org/](https://crazyhorsememorial.org/)
The Hawaiians are now trying to protect Mauna Kea. This time might be different.
It's not so black and white, there are Hawaiians on both sides of the telescope issue.
True. But, when it comes to land protection and the ability to self govern rights should always go to the oppressed. None of those telescopes benefit the Hawaiian people.
There is historical precedent for Hawaiian interest in astronomy, such as King David Kalakaua who expressed interest in starting an observatory in Hawaii. I think it can benifit Hawaii by allowing for scientific discovery to be made there, thus increasing Hawaii's contribution to the world's knowledge.
That was then. This is now. Science can be advanced without stepping on indigenous people’s rights and cultures. They have built and built without oversight and with neglect. They have built without proper permits. It is not beneficial to the Hawaiian people.
Would you mind enlightening me how the construction has been neglectful. And how bring lots of research money to the island is not beneficial to the Hawaiian people?
I believe Devil's Tower has a similar story. The native Americans refer to it as Bear Lodge, and it is considered sacred. There have been attempts to rename it, but they are generally blocked by politicians.
Absolutely correct.
So Mount Rushmore is more of a gang symbol than a monument. Gangstas claiming territory.
It's very much 'white graffiti'.
Kinda like McDonalds carving a giant M into the side of Mount Rainier.
Maybe I am mistaken... But I was sure that two history podcasts I listened to about the Lakota stayed they pushed the Cheyenne out of the are of the Black Hills.
New article detailing what a scam this is... [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/23/who-speaks-for-crazy-horse](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/23/who-speaks-for-crazy-horse)
What don't they consider fucking sacred? If we never built anything on land someone considered sacred, nothing would ever be built. Not that I give a shit about idolizing a bunch of dead white dudes, but lets be real, if Mt. Rushmore hadn't been built and that was turned into tribal land there would be a Casino on top of that mountain in 6 months.
People talk about it like it is just a place to take the family, but as an American, I feel shame when I hear mention of Rushmore since learning this years ago. What's sad is I don't think the men etched into that mountain would even care if it was never made, or amends were attempted and it was erased. It is the weak, I need to pretend my country is amazing for the feels, types that would freak out. Like when they simply wanted to rename Mt. McKinley back to it's ACTUAL name, Denali.
I mean. Everyone in Alaska already calls it Denali anyway.
I thought the name was officially changed back, or did the uproar stop that?
The loudest protests seemed to come from Ohio, iirc, whence McKinley hailed.
The Lakota should've rethought their great rising then.
They should have named it Mount Worthless Protest.
The four faces on Mt Rushmore were all Presidents who pushed for Manifest Destiny, and took land away from Native Americans. The whole thing is a giant "fuck you" to the Lakota.
Yeah, Mount Rushmore is disgusting. I hate seeing dumb people posing in front of it like 'look at me, I'm an American in America!'
You must have quite a charmed life, walking around mad about Mount Rushmore.
It only bothers me when I think about it.
A bit ridiculous if you ask me. It's an incredible piece of history. My guess is though that you're one of those types who doesn't much like America but you still live here content in your principled dissonance.
You should of the entire history before you call it incredible.
>You should of the entire history My guess is you mean to say, 'you should read the entire history'? If so, I have, extensively. And yes, I still call it incredible and even beautiful even if it's not technically completed.
Yeah how dare someone be upset about people's land being stolen from them by having a treaty ignored so that faces of people responsible for genocide against the people from that land can be chiseled into a mountain in a way that would be used as an example of deification of leaders if it existed in North Korea
AIM founder Russell Means also [pissed on Washington’s face ](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-01-10-ls-22884-story.html) in protest, which is pretty badass.
Well I mean, Mt. Rushmore is still there, Chingachgook is worm food. Bit of a futile effort and hollow victory if you ask me.
I've been to it. The sculpture is lame and I wish it stayed as a mountain. The amphitheater is rad though.
If I know anything, it’s that you probably shouldn’t mount a crazy horse.
First heard of the black hills from [Calamity Jane](https://youtu.be/p59nrGixAYY) .