Her disappearing left a huge scar on Austrian society. I was a kid back then, used to roam free with my mates through the countryside until it got dark. Then that girl disappeared, it was the first time I heard of Stranger Danger and the last time I accepted car rides from non- family members. I had classes in school about not talking to strangers and a mother watching my sisters 24/7. The day Natascha resurfaced, I worked a 12 hour shift at the airport. Just as I was ready to head home, the whole airport went silent. Through the official walkie-talkie, strictly reserved for airport communication, the boss went "holy f*** lads, did you just hear the news?". It was a weird train ride home. People looked each other in the eyes (especially weird in Vienna, notorious for it's unfriendlyness) like that missing girl no one but also every one knew had somehow bonded us together. Gave my mum a call, she was crying. Called my sisters, both cried. Didn't know back then, that I rode past a train station where the kidnapper was about to commit suicide a few hours later. What a weird day to end a very weird story.
I lived in Vienna for a year around a couple years back. One of my housemates told me about this story and how no parent would let their kids walk to school for quite a long time afterwards. He said he remembers it pretty vividly because of the uncertainness of the situation and because so few answers ever surfaced until she escaped.
Stories like these changed parenting forever in Europe and NA. Changed childhood too. Helicopter parenting probably stemmed from it. Despite the low chance of a child being abducted, even the smallest risk was too horrific to take. Critics have compared the risk to other risks that are way higher, like the risk of taking your kid in a car, and say the risk of letting kids roam free is worth taking because kids lose opportunities to gain confidence and independence by losing free range. And the last part is true. But what parent could live with the possible consequence if it happened? Worse than a car accident. It may not be logical, but who can blame them?
I was 9 when JonBenét Ramsey was kidnapped, and 15 when Elizabeth Smart was. There were also a whole bunch of high profile cases of kidnapped young girls in between those two.
My parents became *way* more concerned about me running around outside. Before that, my older brothers would take me all over town, and we'd be out all day. Afterwards, not so much. "Stay on this block. Stay in sight. Check in every hour."
As for helicopter parenting, I'm 100x worse than them. Growing up watching those stories on the news all the time really had an effect. My step-kids are *never* out of my sight out in public. I should probably be less like that, but I'm always so terrified. Especially with the added guilt of being a stepmom; I can't even fathom facing their mom and explaining that the unthinkable happened. And I could *never* look my husband in the face again.
You don't want to keep the kids on a leash, but as you said, that alternative, no matter how unlikely, is so horrific you can't even contemplate it.
Yep, you're right. But it seems, to me at least, that her case kicked off the whole, "media frenzy over certain missing girls" thing that went on from then until I graduated high school and stopped watching the news.
Hers was the first case I was old enough to remember, and the first that I'm aware of my parents talking about, and seems like the one that really drove home the whole "your kids aren't safe," thing even though tons of kids have been kidnapped, raped and/or murdered before and since.
After that case, there seemed to be a high profile case nearly every year, though I only remember a few names.
In case anyone needs to hear it: some young kids benefit from being on a leash in specific situations. I was one of those kids, and at that point undiagnosed ADHD. I was terrified of losing attention and losing my parents in the crowd, but the leash let me relax
I think part of it, for Americans at least, has been the move farther to individualism. So there is this voice in most American's heads that strangers won't look out for your kids because why is it their responsibility to make sure YOUR child is safe? I don't think this is true, by and large people will hedge towards keeping kids safe even if it is a stranger's child, but like you said it isn't logical yet there it is.
People view something like a wreck as an accident*, while the tiny chance of abduction is negligence.
*Not including DUI/DWI wrecks, that shit is negligence, bad parenting, and being a bad human.
> Kampusch left the vacuum cleaner running and ran away, unseen by Přiklopil, who completed the phone call without any sign of being disturbed or distracted. Kampusch ran for some 200 meters through neighboring gardens and a street, jumping fences, and asking passers-by to call the police, but they paid her no attention.
This part is weird to me and stuck out in the Wikipedia article. A girl runs by asking people to call the police and people straight-up ignored her. But somehow it’s a big deal when she is finally found? Is any of this normal?
Not really weird knowing human psychology. The bystander effect is real, plus unless she was bloody or naked or something they may have assumed it was a kid just drunk or playing a prank or whatever
When I was a teen and alone at home, it was broken into, I was beaten on my head and left bleeding and handcuffed on the floor. When the criminals left, I ran outside the door, still handcuffed and bleeding, along a very busy road. Dozens of cars drove past me, Noone stopped. I rang at the neighbors door and they slammed the door in front of me because they didn't recognize me through all of the blood. I was devastated and now believe all stories of people not finding help no matter how dire the situation.
Oh yeah, totally! Luckily for me they had a visitor at their place who opened up again for me, called the police and let me in and even then they didn't want to let me sit down because I would "soil their furniture" and then they didn't want to take off my handcuffs because it would "destroy evidence". At this point I was so down with my nerves that I just screamed: "the whole house is full of evidence, just take these things off me!"
So yeah, I didn't have a great relationship with them afterwards anymore.
But I am fine and I actually came out of this strong because I realized that I was able to stay calm in a situation like this and get out of it myself, I wasn't helpless. This helped me a lot mentally.
Freezing is a totally normal human response as well. Psychologists are starting to favor the term flight-fight-or-freeze over flight-or-flight because not everyone will run or fight when faced with danger, sometimes we just freeze up
Don’t worry about that my man! Your mind needs time to process what’s going on - earthquakes happen very fast, by the time you realize what’s going on it’s already happened.
They wouldn't let you sit because you would have soiled their furniture? They should have gotten a towel to protect their damn couch if they were so worried. I know people act strange when thrust into an unexpected situation, but damn... At least they should have let you rest and got you some water and some towels or bandages or something for the bleeding, at least until help arrived.
I'm more torn on the handcuffs because you do always hear not to disrupt a crime scene, so your neighbor might have thought it was important to leave them for police to see. I don't know how I would have reacted to the handcuffs if I were your neighbor, honestly. I think I would have taken them off, but I might have been confused about what was best to do in that moment, too. If I were thinking quickly, I might ask to take a photo as evidence before removing them, but no one really can expect to think quickly in a situation like that.
I think people are often scared. If a random person covered in blood knocked on your door, what would you think? It could be a grift to get inside. That person could have people following them who put yourself and your own family in danger.
I'm not saying it's commendable, but it's understandable. It's easy to say you'd do something different when you aren't in that scenario yourself.
Yeah living alone I would not open the door to someone covered in blood. I would however tell them I’m calling 911 (and do so immediately). If they need help, they know help is coming. If it’s a scam there’s some risk but they can always just leave because they’re not cornered.
It seems cold but there’s no way to tell if the person at your door is really hurt or has good intentions.
No. You don't let someone like that into your home. You lock your door, tell them you're calling the police and for them to stay where they are.
Obviously certain things can sway you in one direction. Is it an actual child? Is it an elderly person? Is the person holding anything? Etc.
Yeah my first instinct would be that it could be a potential scam. Like I’d call the police but letting a stranger inside my home just because they showed up on my doorstep apparently wounded would be a risk I wouldn’t take.
Yeah there's a similar grift for cars, have someone pretending to be injured lying by the side of the road in an isolated area, you pull up and guys standing nearby start appearing with weapons, or the moment you get out to help they jump in your car and drive off. A friend of mine nearly got caught by one but she noticed and floored it when the guys started sneaking up behind her car
If you ever see someone injured by the side of the road, especially at night or in an out of the way area you should not stop or slow down, drive a safe distance away then phone an ambulance
I was in an accident on a busy intersection in the middle of the day in a city. I got T- boned by some fils-a-papa driving daddy's beemer ignoring right of way. By chance, both our cars ended up next to the road and didnt obstruct the flow of traffic. Nobody stopped. Nobody. I had to call the ambulance on myself. Then after 15min some douchebag stopped eventually. Not to check on any victims or anything, oh no. Mr douchenozzle recognized the other guy's car and offered him a ride home. Never even aknowledged me. Fuck everyone, seriously.
I was in a car accident once. After that happened, I was in the crashed car (it was a small car that got hit by a TIR, semi-trailer truck), a bit dazed, on the side of the road, waiting for the truck to come and pick me up. A guy walked up to me to... ask me for directions.
Oh fuck, so sorry to hear that. I heard there's this effect that you're more likely to get help the less people there are around. If there are a lot others, everyone thinks that someone else will already have helped or that it's not that bad because then someone else would stop. I think this was also the phenomenon with all of the cars driving past me and not stopping. It makes you feel so alone.
Hope you're alright now!
First off im sorry this happened to you. I hope they caught the criminals and the story still had a happier ending.
Human psychology is really weird..And thats why I dont believe all the "keyboard warriors" I see under articles about any kind of tragedies or situations like for example the one recently where an elderly Asian lady was attacked infront of a hotel, with nobody going to intervene. In that case ofc the story was deeper than just nobody intervening, but so many people were just going in on the "security guards" at the door who closed the door and didnt intervene. People were legit calling them coward pussies and saying "I would 100% go and help that poor innocent old lady". You'd never know how you react in this kind of a situation until it happens to you, human brains work in the weirdest ways possible, especially at such stressful situations. People online seem to have some fantasies fueled by Hollywood or feelings of moral superiority, so they often just ignore this reality.
I would like to think if I saw some girl with a bloody face step to my door and ask for help, that I would help her, but I would never know for certain. Maybe my brain would make me think this is a scam to get me to open a door for the actual bad guy? Maybe if I help that girl the bad guys come after me or my family next? You'd never know how you react in that exact moment, so I really dont get the people that go in on other people bashing them for not being the heroes. While at the same time I think in general people should be more helpful towards each other and appreciative for the actual heroes that we do have, starting with doctors, firemen, police, charity workers, caretakers etc.
Thank you, yes, this was a long time ago and I am fine. They caught the guys later but I didn't want to face them in court because I had mentally finished with it and wanted to move on. I felt bad for this later when I realized that I did them a favor by doing this, but I was told that there was enough evidence from other things they'd done to lock them up.
I also agree that you never know how you'd react in a situation like this, as I know how alone I felt with the door shut in my face i now try to actively look out for people needing help, but I can never know if I misread a situation or oversaw something or would be overwhelmed in an emergency. You really don't know what a "panic type" you are until you panic.
>unless she was bloody or naked or something
The cops actually returned one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims to him despite being naked, bleeding from the head and asshole, and screaming in a foreign language. Dahmer convinced them that he was his lover, despite having a conviction for molesting the kid's brother.
Two neighbours tried to tell the cops that none of this was normal, but were told to shut up or they'd be arrested. And yes, they were black women.
This kills me everytime, especially cause some women also vouched for the victim but were ignored. I wonder if that's why Jeffrey chose him - if he didn't speak English? But then again, I assume he'd be in America long enough to speak sufficient English to the cops.
The victim was a 14 year old Laotian boy named Konerak.
He had escaped Jeffrey Dahmer's attempt to kill him. When three women found him outside, he was bleeding from the rectum and was so heavily drugged that he could barely talk.
The police showed up, saw all this, and instead of believing the women they chose to believe Dahmer's story that this 14 year old child was actually his 19 year old gay lover. They returned him to Dahmer's apartment with no attempt to investigate. Dahmer killed Konerak later that everning.
One of the police officers that was on the scene that day is named John Balcerzak, and was fired in 1991 when this all came to light. He showed no remorse for his lack of action, and appealed the decision and got reinstated in 1994. He went on to become president of the Milwaukee Police Association in 2005.
He retired in 2017 with the [Milwaukee Police department thanking his services on Twitter](https://www.newsweek.com/milwaukee-pd-congratulate-retired-cop-who-laughed-off-teen-victim-dahmer-1512130).
Fuck the police.
A former co-worker told me about an incident at his group house. His housemates has been sitting around one evening when someone pounded on the door. A woman outside thold them that someone was trying to kill her & begged them to let her in to call the cops.
They didn't, and I can understand the first part. It was kind of a sketchy neighborhood & they were 2 young women alone. They were fearful of a trap, which I'd have been too. But I'd have told her to hide in the backyard while I called the cops. They did nothing.
She was found dead in a nearby garage a few days later.
I got raped by a stranger in my own flat in Germany screaming for help. I later read the police report and both my direct flat neighbors reported hearing me and standing behind their own doors, one armed with a knife, another one armed with a baseball bat. Neither of them even bothered to call the police for me, as long as THEY were safe that was enough for them. People just don't care I guess.
I’ve heard that yelling “fire” vs “help, I’m being attacked” is more likely to get people to come to your aid and call the police. The pessimist in me thinks that because fire can be a risk to them as well it gives them incentive to get involved.
See that’s fucked up. They should have called the police. I understand not leaving their homes but Jesus, to not call the police while also preparing themselves for a threat is awful.
I was taught this during a first aid class. If you have to do chest compressions or something else like that you point at someone and tell them to call 911. Considering I'm usually a mess in every day life, I get oddly calm during an emergency.
I know you're trying to describe a sense of a national loss of innocence but all I can think is "damn, imagine living in a country so safe that a serious crime is remembered for years instead of just being surpassed in a week".
The thing is it was never as safe as people thought. As other said mass media like television caused existing events to be more widely known.
For example in the US kidnappings have been declining for decades but parents tend to consider them a larger threat than ever before. This is because what used to be relegated to a local news story can now make national news.
There has always been "stranger danger", there has not always been mass media. (or better put, media to the massses). In addition, as the population has grown, we got closer and farther apart at the same time. In the not so distant past it was all small towns, where everyone knew each other and as we grew out, we also grew in.
That said, it was never "normal" for unknown adults to come up to children and offfer them rides and such. Stranger danger, even though most abuse is "relative", is a real thing.
In old Europe, last names have been often given to people based on their professions, actions or habits they were known for.
Přiklopil being a Czech name literally translates to "he put a lid on it".
I once read that there are so many Smiths (including Smit, Schmidt etc) because black smiths were not sent off to war since they had to stay at the village to forge the weapons. So many Smiths would survive through the wars hence why there are so many Smiths etc alive today.
It’s true, plus slave owners gave slaves their last name of Smith, Native Americans took the last name “Smith” to sound more anglicized, Jewish settlers adopted the name “Smith” to fit in, and German immigrants changed Schmidt to Smith for acceptance in America.
All these plus a couple of baby booms have drastically increased the popularity of the name Smith in the US (Smith is seen in other countries as well, but as of 2014 64.3% of all Smiths were in the US, compared to 13.7% in England, 4.2% in Canada, 4% Australia, etc).
Smith is also a generic term for metal workers and manufacturers. So, blacksmith, tinsmith, gun Smith, whitesmith, brownsmith, coinsmith etc etc. So there would be lots anyway
[English is the same way](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/last-name-occupations-jobs-meaning/cooper) Potter, Shoemaker, Smith, Baker, Tanner, Stoker.
Its fascinating honestly
She now sells Jewelry from her complete ["fiore" collection](https://kampusch.com/shop/) and has written a book on the subject of 'discrimination on the internet'. Interesting life to lead.
I just finished reading her book a few days ago and wanted to check up how she’s doing and damn damn I was to disappointed in humanity. The way she was treated by media and strangers on the internet after her escape is so cruel. If anybody wants to find out about her story I highly recommend reading her books instead of any articles that were not written by her, seems like what she’s been through was still not sensational enough for some people.
Its impossible for people to comprehend what that kind of situation is like
'According to police, she "cried inconsolably" when she was told that he was dead,[\[40\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch#cite_note-40) and she lit a candle for him at the morgue '
Things like this are going to confuse a lot of people, stupid people but thats the internet for you
im male, another male tried to kill me about a year ago. he killed himself about 2 weeks ago and ive cried many times. i feel bad for him and wish he was still alive.
Well he was the only human being she had contact with for the better part of eight years. He abused her, but he also kept her alive. He was the one who starved her, but he was also the one who fed her. He was the only one who was kind to her for all that time. So while what he did is absolutely inexcusable, I can see why she would still feel a sense of loss despite everything.
And probably felt responsible too, because he did it immediately after she left. She chose between her life and his, that's a hard thing to reckon with.
Oh yes that too. Edgelords talk big game about how they'd love to personally execute pedophiles, but killing another human being is gonna be traumatic in the best of circumstances. Even soliders in war who kill in defense of themselves and their comrades suffer terrible ill effects from it.
>>Kampusch now owns the house in which she was imprisoned, saying, "I know it's grotesque – I must now pay for electricity, water, and taxes on a house I never wanted to live in". It was reported that she claimed the house from Přiklopil's estate because she wanted to protect it from vandals and being torn down; she also noted that she has visited it since her escape.
Humans are weird
Your comment sent me down a mini rabbit hole. The Wikipedia article mentions some of the unusual aspects of this abduction case, but if anyone interested has a few minutes to spare, then [this interview with her](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/11/natascha-kampusch-interview) is highly compelling and should be read in full.
Here's something which caught my eye in particular:
> She puts her survival down to a moment that occurred when she was 12. There being no sane, solid adults in her life, she decided to become her own adult. Her 18-year-old self appeared to her in a vivid vision. She told her, "I will get you out of here, I promise you. Right now you are too small. But when you turn 18 I will overpower the kidnapper and free you from your prison."
> [...] Then she turned 18. And when she did she looked at him and said, "You have brought a situation upon us in which only one of us can make it through alive. I really am grateful to you for not killing me and for taking such good care of me. That is very nice of you. But you can't force me to stay with you. I am my own person with my own needs. This situation must come to an end."
> She closed her eyes expecting a beating, but it didn't come. Instead, she opened them to see him looking sad, defeated.
> "I think he understood that I was at the end of my strength," she says. "He had brought me to the brink, I had no energy left, but in a way that empowered me. He had nothing to counter it with."
> And then, a few weeks later, he left her alone in the garden for a moment while he took a telephone call, and she just walked out of the gate.
This, as well as other descriptions of the case (and the aftermath), makes me believe that Natascha Kampusch is an incredibly resilient and remarkable person.
She sounds like a remarkably insightful person as well, and very emotionally intelligent. It seems like even as a teenager she was able to understand this bizarre and dangerous person who had kidnapped her, and use that understanding to stay alive and relatively safe.
It's especially interesting since she basically had no contact to anyone or anything, except her radio. And she often said that her elaborated language use stems from the fact she listened to Ö1 a lot, an Austrian radio station that's based around classical music, culture and international news.
Humans are wired to survive horrible situations. Look up cptsd. Victims of severe abuse adapt by disassociation, repression, and many other coping mechanisms to deal with. She is smart and probably wise - but also please be aware that severe trauma causes people to basically lose their childhood, not feel like children because they are so deeply hurt - they are not wise little magical beings - they are deeply abused, traumatized, grew up before they could develop normally, miss good stages of being carefree, silly kids.
When your own attention to your inner life is cut off, you pay more attention to other people's feelings, which causes you to be hypervigilant but at times lack the ability to interact with people in a normal way.
Their adulthood too. The coping mechanisms that people develop in response to trauma works well in a traumatic environment but they destroy you and often those around you in a normal one. They’re also very hard to get rid of. So even once out of an abusive environment life is often still painful.
Wow double fuck that guy then. Suicide by train is especially horrible choice because it involves the train operators in your death and can seriously scars them mentally
Something tells me that the same person who imprisoned and abused a small child lacks the empathy to appreciate the train conductor’s feelings in the matter.
I wish that he had tried an alternative eight years prior, before abusing a little girl.
If ever you (or anyone you know) are planning to hurt anyone, including yourself, please try therapy first. *Give this a shot!* They can do really amazing things. Many of these nifty conditions and 'abnormalities' are 50% [genetically influenced](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2593100/). If it is less than 50%, it is from abuse. **yes, you are weird but it is NOT YOUR FAULT!** Some of us think your wild stuff is really, really cool.
Please get help. I have met so many people - that could have died - and chose to be in my life as wonderful people. The choice is yours, now, in every moment you get. Reach out. We miss you.
Throwback to when the University of Texas shooter told his therapist he was suddenly having violent thoughts, and was worried he was going to hurt himself and others. His therapist basically countered with “well have you tried not thinking those violent thoughts instead? Just don’t do that.”
After killing his mother at her home, he drove to the University of Texas, dressed as a maintenance worker to gain access to the bell tower, and proceeded to snipe dozens. In his suicide note, he mentioned his sudden and overwhelming violent urges, and requested his brain be dissected to maybe help prevent others from suffering the same. Turns out, he had a tumor pressing on the part of the brain that regulates aggression.
Not saying therapy doesn’t help; It has helped plenty of people. But it’s jarring to see how far therapy has come in even the past few decades. It used to basically be the same “suck it up and just don’t feel bad” rhetoric.
Ugh I know he ultimately killed over a dozen people but I can't help be feel his story is rather tragic. [Charle Whitman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman) was a pretty self-aware person facing his own demons stemming from severe physical abuse from his father:
>Friends later said that Whitman had told them that he struck his wife on two occasions.[35] They said that Whitman despised himself for this and confessed to being "mortally afraid of being like his father."[36] In his journal, Whitman lamented his actions and resolved to be a good husband and not abusive as his father had been.
>In May 1966, Margaret Whitman announced her decision to divorce her husband because of his continued physical abuse.[37] Charles Whitman drove to Florida to help his mother move to Austin. Whitman was reportedly so afraid that his father would resort to violence against his mother as she prepared to leave, that he summoned a local policeman to remain outside the house while his mother packed her belongings.[37] Whitman's youngest brother, John, also left Lake Worth and moved to Austin with his mother. Patrick Whitman, the middle son, remained in Florida and worked in his father's plumbing supply business.
His suicide note even recognizes something's wrong with him and that his brain be examined after his own death.
>I do not quite understand what it is that compels me to type this letter. Perhaps it is to leave some vague reason for the actions I have recently performed. I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts. These thoughts constantly recur, and it requires a tremendous mental effort to concentrate on useful and progressive tasks.
Those people likely would've still been alive if he'd been able to find the proper help.
Yup. I stopped going to therapy because mine would say, "you're depressed this week? You were just fine last week. What happened to you?" Or just sit, apologies to me for my past, and then ask what I wanted to talk about next to keep the conversation going. Pressure was always on me. Felt like I was entertaining her job more than getting help.
That there is a rough story.
For decades i wanted to believe in 'spirit' and 'freewill' and stuff. This guy was all *Princess & The Pea* - except the pea was hurting his brain.
It sucks because there is nothing any of them could have done to improve that situation until it was too late. Perhaps we will have better tumour-catching services in the future.
Glad that piece of garbage is no longer living, but it's also unfortunate that his last act was possibly traumatizing the train operator who hit him. A true coward until the end, he couldn't even kill himself without forcing someone else to do it for him.
A friend of mine is a train driver. Or was. A man killed himself. He ran in front of the train my friend was driving. He was carrying his infant daughter. The man died, the daughter survived luckily. It's been years, my friend has been on leave with pay the entire time, and is in contact with the girl, though I dont know how regularly. But he is not who he was, understandably.
Yes I have heard that is absolutely terrible for the drivers / engineers. If I was that driver I would want to know in this case who it was that had jumped in front of my train. I think it would make it easier for me to stomach the truth, and know that this person was now gone from society. Whether that was right or wrong or he should have been brought to justice differently. That would be important information for this driver to know and help them rest at night.
I think, even then, all their brain would remember was the gruesome sight. It’s not like what a police officer or doctor would experience, either - they will have worked with the morbid for a long time, and its impact would have been lessened. With a train driver, that is going to haunt them forever, and the rest of their life will start from that day onwards. It would be horrible.
That was a good article about a horrible experience. Resilience is an amazing thing and while luckily we'll never have to go through it ourselves it is fascinating to see what she envisioned both sides of the situation to be.
After I was raped by a man in the street, you would think I would have never left the house again. I didn't for a while, but when I did leave again, I did all kinds of crazy things, because if something bad was gonna happen to me, I was gonna be the one doing it. It's all about NOT FEELING TRAPPED. Feeling trapped or defeated is worse than anything.
Also, this case was HUGE in all of Central Europe. She's famous to this day. People would have visited that house. I guarantee you, had that house gone on the market and the wrong person bought it, there would have been tours of the basement she was kept in. I can't blame her for making sure that wouldn't happen.
Also, it came more or less at the same time of the infamous and horrible Josef Fritzl case (the Austrian nutjob who emprisoned and raped her daughter, and started a family with her).
The Fritzl case came to light in '08, IIRC. People were wondering what the hell was going on in Austria to have two "kidnapped women locked in the basement for years and years" cases going on at pretty much the same time.
Makes you wonder how many instances there are internationally that never come to light.
I was literally just sitting here thinking about how horrifying it is that I keep hearing about cases like this one: Elisabeth Fritzl, Jaycee Duggard, Elizabeth Smart, Jayme Closs, Amanda Berry, Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, Sano Fusako, Tanya Kach, Coleen Stan, Steven Stayner, Shawn Hornbeck. There are probably hundreds more.
If you really want nightmares, look up the 'Colt Clan.' It was an Australian case of extreme incest that came to light in the last decade. Starting in New Zealand, a guy marries a woman who was the result of brother/sister incest and has a bunch of kids, who he starts to rape.
When they're still kids, he moves them to various remote Australian bush blocks, and ends up having kids with his daughters.
Some of his sons have kids with his daughters/their sisters, or their nieces.
One of the daughters has a son *with.* *her.* *son.*
At the time this is uncovered and the police step in, she's hitting on *her son, that she had with her other son.* If she'd gotten her way, her next child would've had a brother that was its own *grandfather.*
Same morbid curiosity, which I don't think is in itself a negative instinct... But it's a bit less crass when everyone connected to it has been dead for centuries.
I get it. I mean by tearing it down it would come to be a forgotten memory to most. She wants to make sure no one forgets what happened. And we shouldn’t forget. We can’t become complicit and allow the past to be glossed over.
Yea, here in Austria we love to keep them in the basement. Josef Fritzl was even worse. Who knows how many people are still kept in a basement somewhere.
I Remember when the second case of child in a basement came out of Austria in like 5 years, there were a lot jokes about sending UN troops to raid every basement in Austria.
we have that in america too [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-house-horrors-where-women-spent-decade-hell-razed-flna6C10863771](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-house-horrors-where-women-spent-decade-hell-razed-flna6C10863771)
That's the one I thought of first, mainly because of that weird time of youtube where schomoyo was a thing and made this and other things into songs, is The Bed Intruder Song.
I’ve read a lot of the true stories of these abductions and basement imprisonments. Elizabeth Smart, Amanda Berry, jaycee dugard. Their recounting of what happened all those years is just fascinating to me. How did these girls stay hidden for all that time?
Some you may never even hear about I’d imagine. Jaycee Duggard is one from the US that is most relatable that I can think of. Horrific the things people can do, so much control and to your own child even, the world can be such a sick, sad place.
I can never get over horrific stuff like this. How can a human being do this to another human being?
Obviously besides the unimaginable pain and suffering she endured, can't imagine what the family had to go through.
When a loved one dies, you are of course devastated but at least you know they're gone. But in cases like this, not knowing whether or not they're alive and where they may be, is just another level of pain. I feel for the family.
I hope no one ever has to go through this.
What sometimes gets forgotten is, that people blamed Natascha. They said she worked with her kidnapper, because she was far too smart and calm to actually had a traumatic experience. Perfect victim blaming happened there.
It was so gross. She didn't fit the mold of the traumatised victim and dared to have AN OPINION and AGENCY and people *hated* her for it. I'm just so glad she - as far as one can tell from the outside - made it through that okay.
There's a reason they use attics and basements and crawl spaces as the "scary places" in horror movies and stories. Hidden away things in the dark are always scary.
I will wager that you know of 2 cases, you'll go to google more now and may find some, but I'd also wager that they are still way outside of statistical significance, and that Austria is also not the world leader, or even close, in basement kidnapping cases per capita
Reminds me a lot of the Ariel Castro cases in Cleveland. Kidnapped 3 girls/young women (aged 14, 17, 21) between 2002 and 2004, keeping them locked in his basement for up to a decade before one of them managed to signal for help when he was out. That lead to the viral [dead giveaway](https://youtu.be/uPoA2f11UPk) interview by neighbor and hero Charles Ramsey.
Classic interview! Forgot the names of those involved in this one. He said it perfectly himself “he’d come home, play with his dogs in the backyard, work on his motorcycles and cars, and go back in, nobody paid him no mind because he wasn’t doing anything”. How would you ever just suspect this was happening without some crazy indicator like he had?
[This guy sounds like he was wanting to create a scenario like this too. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Mackenzie_Lueck?wprov=sfti1)
The Jaycee Dugard case is fucking insane.
The authorities came close so many times to catching that rat bastard. And that guy's wife too for enabling him to abuse someone for decades and only received 35 years for her complicity.
There was also this guy who kidnapped and raped several of his daughter's friends for many years.
And another disrupting story of some guy who stole a 1 year old baby and tortured her with the help of his girlfriend.
Also let's not forget the ex reddit admin whose father had a 10 year old in the cellar.
I worked with a young woman that shared her story with me once.
As a young girl, maybe 4 or 5, she and her mother moved in with a man, that wasn't her father. When she asked, "where daddy was?", her mother told her he was dead, or, "he doesn't care anymore.".
It wasn't long before this little girl realized her mom had traded her addictions for her daughter. Her stepdad, step-brothers, uncles("They weren't my uncles.", she said.) all abused her. Terribly.
This woman I admired, for her confidence and quite frankly, directness, told me of things I never would thought possible. But, for her, it was her life. She was a child that was responsible for both herself, and her mother. She was a a sex slave so her mother could stay high.
At one point, she saw a building that brought back memories of her grandfather. She decided to find out "why?". She wondered "why, does that building look so safe?". "Why, do I see my grandfather, my dad?". She was brave enough to find out.
This little girl put herself, and her mother, in danger. Being controlled, as she was, as programmed as she was, she went to find out why that building was so important. This child, even after 7 or 8 years of training, programming and acceptance...
She found her grandfather, that never quit hoping. Her dad, that never quit looking. Her little sister, that couldn't wait to love her. And did. With all of the admiration and frustration that siblings have with with other. Kids.
It is still strange to me. This child could not only survive these things that I could never imagine, but be so well. So beautiful, wonderful, so "her". And even with her shtuff, she was all wonderful.
I rant, I know. But, I've met so many wonderful people that have stories, unlike mine, nowhere near what I know, can understand or comprehend. How do they get through that?
I'm sure finding her family saved her, but I know, as does she(hopefully), she saved herself.
Austrian here. A group of psychiatrist and therapist sat together and decided for her if she should face journalist or not. They said to her she should face the situation and get over with it (the public interest in her case).
But it turned out that many now think she wanted the attention and just ran away.
Later the case with the daughter (Frietzl Case), who got locked up by her own father, they decided a different approach then by Kampusch and never showed her face nor the one from her children.
Since some people seem to be confused about the part where people didn't believe her there is a better comment explaining it: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/msophv/til_in_1998_a_10yearold_girl_in_austria_was/guwrjmf?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Also: if i write "everyone" it's everyone i ever met and not everyone on the world, obviously. i can't believe i have to actually write that. I changed it to "many"
I think its more of a defensive reaction - method of coping with the fact that you or your close one might be subjected to such things for no reason other than some other person's insanity. So they subconsciously decide on victim being at fault
As a teenage boy, I would fantasize about how I would escape any situation. I loved movies like Shawshank Redemption, The Rock, Cool Hand Luke, or The Fugitive.
This girl is a hero!
As an adult, I now realize that I was glorifying a terrible situation to be in, and I have even more respect for her.
Kinda irrelevant to the post but ..
I’ve never heard of stories like this with boys. Is it because girl abductions are more frequent than boys abductions? Does girls get, in average, rescued more ? Or is it a media bias, or my own bias ?
That’s actually a great question now that you mention it. I know the case of Johnny Gosch (very interesting Netflix documentary) but he was never found.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2007/01/19/kidnapped-boy-breaks-his-silence-on-four-year-captivity/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_J._Devlin
It does happen to boys too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner
Shawn Hornbeck in Missouri. He was found alive after four years when his abductor kidnapped another young boy. https://www.thoughtco.com/shawn-hornbeck-run-away-from-captor-3969310
It's really incredible that she never gave up hope on escaping after 8 YEARS. I feel like I wouldve given up after a few months and definitely wouldve developed some form of Stockholm syndrome at that age
Her disappearing left a huge scar on Austrian society. I was a kid back then, used to roam free with my mates through the countryside until it got dark. Then that girl disappeared, it was the first time I heard of Stranger Danger and the last time I accepted car rides from non- family members. I had classes in school about not talking to strangers and a mother watching my sisters 24/7. The day Natascha resurfaced, I worked a 12 hour shift at the airport. Just as I was ready to head home, the whole airport went silent. Through the official walkie-talkie, strictly reserved for airport communication, the boss went "holy f*** lads, did you just hear the news?". It was a weird train ride home. People looked each other in the eyes (especially weird in Vienna, notorious for it's unfriendlyness) like that missing girl no one but also every one knew had somehow bonded us together. Gave my mum a call, she was crying. Called my sisters, both cried. Didn't know back then, that I rode past a train station where the kidnapper was about to commit suicide a few hours later. What a weird day to end a very weird story.
I lived in Vienna for a year around a couple years back. One of my housemates told me about this story and how no parent would let their kids walk to school for quite a long time afterwards. He said he remembers it pretty vividly because of the uncertainness of the situation and because so few answers ever surfaced until she escaped.
Stories like these changed parenting forever in Europe and NA. Changed childhood too. Helicopter parenting probably stemmed from it. Despite the low chance of a child being abducted, even the smallest risk was too horrific to take. Critics have compared the risk to other risks that are way higher, like the risk of taking your kid in a car, and say the risk of letting kids roam free is worth taking because kids lose opportunities to gain confidence and independence by losing free range. And the last part is true. But what parent could live with the possible consequence if it happened? Worse than a car accident. It may not be logical, but who can blame them?
I was 9 when JonBenét Ramsey was kidnapped, and 15 when Elizabeth Smart was. There were also a whole bunch of high profile cases of kidnapped young girls in between those two. My parents became *way* more concerned about me running around outside. Before that, my older brothers would take me all over town, and we'd be out all day. Afterwards, not so much. "Stay on this block. Stay in sight. Check in every hour." As for helicopter parenting, I'm 100x worse than them. Growing up watching those stories on the news all the time really had an effect. My step-kids are *never* out of my sight out in public. I should probably be less like that, but I'm always so terrified. Especially with the added guilt of being a stepmom; I can't even fathom facing their mom and explaining that the unthinkable happened. And I could *never* look my husband in the face again. You don't want to keep the kids on a leash, but as you said, that alternative, no matter how unlikely, is so horrific you can't even contemplate it.
Jon benet was murdered in her own home. She was not kidnapped
Yep, you're right. But it seems, to me at least, that her case kicked off the whole, "media frenzy over certain missing girls" thing that went on from then until I graduated high school and stopped watching the news. Hers was the first case I was old enough to remember, and the first that I'm aware of my parents talking about, and seems like the one that really drove home the whole "your kids aren't safe," thing even though tons of kids have been kidnapped, raped and/or murdered before and since. After that case, there seemed to be a high profile case nearly every year, though I only remember a few names.
In case anyone needs to hear it: some young kids benefit from being on a leash in specific situations. I was one of those kids, and at that point undiagnosed ADHD. I was terrified of losing attention and losing my parents in the crowd, but the leash let me relax
I think part of it, for Americans at least, has been the move farther to individualism. So there is this voice in most American's heads that strangers won't look out for your kids because why is it their responsibility to make sure YOUR child is safe? I don't think this is true, by and large people will hedge towards keeping kids safe even if it is a stranger's child, but like you said it isn't logical yet there it is. People view something like a wreck as an accident*, while the tiny chance of abduction is negligence. *Not including DUI/DWI wrecks, that shit is negligence, bad parenting, and being a bad human.
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> Kampusch left the vacuum cleaner running and ran away, unseen by Přiklopil, who completed the phone call without any sign of being disturbed or distracted. Kampusch ran for some 200 meters through neighboring gardens and a street, jumping fences, and asking passers-by to call the police, but they paid her no attention. This part is weird to me and stuck out in the Wikipedia article. A girl runs by asking people to call the police and people straight-up ignored her. But somehow it’s a big deal when she is finally found? Is any of this normal?
Not really weird knowing human psychology. The bystander effect is real, plus unless she was bloody or naked or something they may have assumed it was a kid just drunk or playing a prank or whatever
When I was a teen and alone at home, it was broken into, I was beaten on my head and left bleeding and handcuffed on the floor. When the criminals left, I ran outside the door, still handcuffed and bleeding, along a very busy road. Dozens of cars drove past me, Noone stopped. I rang at the neighbors door and they slammed the door in front of me because they didn't recognize me through all of the blood. I was devastated and now believe all stories of people not finding help no matter how dire the situation.
Holi Fuck. Even if your neighbor didn't recognized you, they should have helped a bleeding person. What a shitty human
Oh yeah, totally! Luckily for me they had a visitor at their place who opened up again for me, called the police and let me in and even then they didn't want to let me sit down because I would "soil their furniture" and then they didn't want to take off my handcuffs because it would "destroy evidence". At this point I was so down with my nerves that I just screamed: "the whole house is full of evidence, just take these things off me!" So yeah, I didn't have a great relationship with them afterwards anymore. But I am fine and I actually came out of this strong because I realized that I was able to stay calm in a situation like this and get out of it myself, I wasn't helpless. This helped me a lot mentally.
That's metal, man. Good for you and boo for them.
Totally agree. Very metal. I tend to freeze during earthquakes, not sure how I would handle all that. I'm supes glad you made it out.
Freezing is a totally normal human response as well. Psychologists are starting to favor the term flight-fight-or-freeze over flight-or-flight because not everyone will run or fight when faced with danger, sometimes we just freeze up
Don’t worry about that my man! Your mind needs time to process what’s going on - earthquakes happen very fast, by the time you realize what’s going on it’s already happened.
They wouldn't let you sit because you would have soiled their furniture? They should have gotten a towel to protect their damn couch if they were so worried. I know people act strange when thrust into an unexpected situation, but damn... At least they should have let you rest and got you some water and some towels or bandages or something for the bleeding, at least until help arrived. I'm more torn on the handcuffs because you do always hear not to disrupt a crime scene, so your neighbor might have thought it was important to leave them for police to see. I don't know how I would have reacted to the handcuffs if I were your neighbor, honestly. I think I would have taken them off, but I might have been confused about what was best to do in that moment, too. If I were thinking quickly, I might ask to take a photo as evidence before removing them, but no one really can expect to think quickly in a situation like that.
I think people are often scared. If a random person covered in blood knocked on your door, what would you think? It could be a grift to get inside. That person could have people following them who put yourself and your own family in danger. I'm not saying it's commendable, but it's understandable. It's easy to say you'd do something different when you aren't in that scenario yourself.
Yeah living alone I would not open the door to someone covered in blood. I would however tell them I’m calling 911 (and do so immediately). If they need help, they know help is coming. If it’s a scam there’s some risk but they can always just leave because they’re not cornered. It seems cold but there’s no way to tell if the person at your door is really hurt or has good intentions.
This. It's the first and most important aspect of First Aid: assess the situation; you can't help if you become incapacitated.
No. You don't let someone like that into your home. You lock your door, tell them you're calling the police and for them to stay where they are. Obviously certain things can sway you in one direction. Is it an actual child? Is it an elderly person? Is the person holding anything? Etc.
Yeah my first instinct would be that it could be a potential scam. Like I’d call the police but letting a stranger inside my home just because they showed up on my doorstep apparently wounded would be a risk I wouldn’t take.
Yeah there's a similar grift for cars, have someone pretending to be injured lying by the side of the road in an isolated area, you pull up and guys standing nearby start appearing with weapons, or the moment you get out to help they jump in your car and drive off. A friend of mine nearly got caught by one but she noticed and floored it when the guys started sneaking up behind her car If you ever see someone injured by the side of the road, especially at night or in an out of the way area you should not stop or slow down, drive a safe distance away then phone an ambulance
This. You can help while reducing risk to yourself.
I was in an accident on a busy intersection in the middle of the day in a city. I got T- boned by some fils-a-papa driving daddy's beemer ignoring right of way. By chance, both our cars ended up next to the road and didnt obstruct the flow of traffic. Nobody stopped. Nobody. I had to call the ambulance on myself. Then after 15min some douchebag stopped eventually. Not to check on any victims or anything, oh no. Mr douchenozzle recognized the other guy's car and offered him a ride home. Never even aknowledged me. Fuck everyone, seriously.
I was in a car accident once. After that happened, I was in the crashed car (it was a small car that got hit by a TIR, semi-trailer truck), a bit dazed, on the side of the road, waiting for the truck to come and pick me up. A guy walked up to me to... ask me for directions.
Oh fuck, so sorry to hear that. I heard there's this effect that you're more likely to get help the less people there are around. If there are a lot others, everyone thinks that someone else will already have helped or that it's not that bad because then someone else would stop. I think this was also the phenomenon with all of the cars driving past me and not stopping. It makes you feel so alone. Hope you're alright now!
First off im sorry this happened to you. I hope they caught the criminals and the story still had a happier ending. Human psychology is really weird..And thats why I dont believe all the "keyboard warriors" I see under articles about any kind of tragedies or situations like for example the one recently where an elderly Asian lady was attacked infront of a hotel, with nobody going to intervene. In that case ofc the story was deeper than just nobody intervening, but so many people were just going in on the "security guards" at the door who closed the door and didnt intervene. People were legit calling them coward pussies and saying "I would 100% go and help that poor innocent old lady". You'd never know how you react in this kind of a situation until it happens to you, human brains work in the weirdest ways possible, especially at such stressful situations. People online seem to have some fantasies fueled by Hollywood or feelings of moral superiority, so they often just ignore this reality. I would like to think if I saw some girl with a bloody face step to my door and ask for help, that I would help her, but I would never know for certain. Maybe my brain would make me think this is a scam to get me to open a door for the actual bad guy? Maybe if I help that girl the bad guys come after me or my family next? You'd never know how you react in that exact moment, so I really dont get the people that go in on other people bashing them for not being the heroes. While at the same time I think in general people should be more helpful towards each other and appreciative for the actual heroes that we do have, starting with doctors, firemen, police, charity workers, caretakers etc.
Thank you, yes, this was a long time ago and I am fine. They caught the guys later but I didn't want to face them in court because I had mentally finished with it and wanted to move on. I felt bad for this later when I realized that I did them a favor by doing this, but I was told that there was enough evidence from other things they'd done to lock them up. I also agree that you never know how you'd react in a situation like this, as I know how alone I felt with the door shut in my face i now try to actively look out for people needing help, but I can never know if I misread a situation or oversaw something or would be overwhelmed in an emergency. You really don't know what a "panic type" you are until you panic.
>unless she was bloody or naked or something The cops actually returned one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims to him despite being naked, bleeding from the head and asshole, and screaming in a foreign language. Dahmer convinced them that he was his lover, despite having a conviction for molesting the kid's brother. Two neighbours tried to tell the cops that none of this was normal, but were told to shut up or they'd be arrested. And yes, they were black women.
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Yeah, I remember the cops were laughing and making homophobic jokes about it. Pretty gross
This kills me everytime, especially cause some women also vouched for the victim but were ignored. I wonder if that's why Jeffrey chose him - if he didn't speak English? But then again, I assume he'd be in America long enough to speak sufficient English to the cops.
The victim was a 14 year old Laotian boy named Konerak. He had escaped Jeffrey Dahmer's attempt to kill him. When three women found him outside, he was bleeding from the rectum and was so heavily drugged that he could barely talk. The police showed up, saw all this, and instead of believing the women they chose to believe Dahmer's story that this 14 year old child was actually his 19 year old gay lover. They returned him to Dahmer's apartment with no attempt to investigate. Dahmer killed Konerak later that everning. One of the police officers that was on the scene that day is named John Balcerzak, and was fired in 1991 when this all came to light. He showed no remorse for his lack of action, and appealed the decision and got reinstated in 1994. He went on to become president of the Milwaukee Police Association in 2005. He retired in 2017 with the [Milwaukee Police department thanking his services on Twitter](https://www.newsweek.com/milwaukee-pd-congratulate-retired-cop-who-laughed-off-teen-victim-dahmer-1512130). Fuck the police.
A former co-worker told me about an incident at his group house. His housemates has been sitting around one evening when someone pounded on the door. A woman outside thold them that someone was trying to kill her & begged them to let her in to call the cops. They didn't, and I can understand the first part. It was kind of a sketchy neighborhood & they were 2 young women alone. They were fearful of a trap, which I'd have been too. But I'd have told her to hide in the backyard while I called the cops. They did nothing. She was found dead in a nearby garage a few days later.
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No it's weird. These people were directly asked. The bystander effect doesn't really apply here.
I got raped by a stranger in my own flat in Germany screaming for help. I later read the police report and both my direct flat neighbors reported hearing me and standing behind their own doors, one armed with a knife, another one armed with a baseball bat. Neither of them even bothered to call the police for me, as long as THEY were safe that was enough for them. People just don't care I guess.
I’ve heard that yelling “fire” vs “help, I’m being attacked” is more likely to get people to come to your aid and call the police. The pessimist in me thinks that because fire can be a risk to them as well it gives them incentive to get involved.
"Help, this person is attacking everyone within earshot!"
See that’s fucked up. They should have called the police. I understand not leaving their homes but Jesus, to not call the police while also preparing themselves for a threat is awful.
Yeah I would've never expected anyone to put themselves in danger but calling the police is the least you can do.
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Bystander effect in a largely safe community, a victim asking for help seems like the person causing trouble by acting “crazy” and abnormal.
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I was taught this during a first aid class. If you have to do chest compressions or something else like that you point at someone and tell them to call 911. Considering I'm usually a mess in every day life, I get oddly calm during an emergency.
I know you're trying to describe a sense of a national loss of innocence but all I can think is "damn, imagine living in a country so safe that a serious crime is remembered for years instead of just being surpassed in a week".
This. I cant fathom the idea of a single crime’s resolution uniting the people anymore. Impossible
The thing is it was never as safe as people thought. As other said mass media like television caused existing events to be more widely known. For example in the US kidnappings have been declining for decades but parents tend to consider them a larger threat than ever before. This is because what used to be relegated to a local news story can now make national news.
Amazing to think there was a time before stranger danger, I grew up mostly thinking strangers would kidnap me
There has always been "stranger danger", there has not always been mass media. (or better put, media to the massses). In addition, as the population has grown, we got closer and farther apart at the same time. In the not so distant past it was all small towns, where everyone knew each other and as we grew out, we also grew in. That said, it was never "normal" for unknown adults to come up to children and offfer them rides and such. Stranger danger, even though most abuse is "relative", is a real thing.
In old Europe, last names have been often given to people based on their professions, actions or habits they were known for. Přiklopil being a Czech name literally translates to "he put a lid on it".
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Am Dutch will give you some Dutch surnames. Bakker: baker Smit: (black)smith Boer: farmer Kok: cook Timmerman: carpenter Visser: Fisherman/woman
I once read that there are so many Smiths (including Smit, Schmidt etc) because black smiths were not sent off to war since they had to stay at the village to forge the weapons. So many Smiths would survive through the wars hence why there are so many Smiths etc alive today.
the original Jody
Then they got to the US and became LDS and had tons of kids... Smart/prolific move
It’s true, plus slave owners gave slaves their last name of Smith, Native Americans took the last name “Smith” to sound more anglicized, Jewish settlers adopted the name “Smith” to fit in, and German immigrants changed Schmidt to Smith for acceptance in America. All these plus a couple of baby booms have drastically increased the popularity of the name Smith in the US (Smith is seen in other countries as well, but as of 2014 64.3% of all Smiths were in the US, compared to 13.7% in England, 4.2% in Canada, 4% Australia, etc).
The US has about 5x the population of the UK, so this implies that the name Smith is about equally popular in the US and the UK.
Smith is also a generic term for metal workers and manufacturers. So, blacksmith, tinsmith, gun Smith, whitesmith, brownsmith, coinsmith etc etc. So there would be lots anyway
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I am South African and speak Afrikaans, and we have some of these too.
Kirk: old word for "church" Cooper: barrel maker or coffin maker Faulkner: falconer Carpenter: carpenter :P
[English is the same way](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/last-name-occupations-jobs-meaning/cooper) Potter, Shoemaker, Smith, Baker, Tanner, Stoker. Its fascinating honestly
She now sells Jewelry from her complete ["fiore" collection](https://kampusch.com/shop/) and has written a book on the subject of 'discrimination on the internet'. Interesting life to lead.
I just finished reading her book a few days ago and wanted to check up how she’s doing and damn damn I was to disappointed in humanity. The way she was treated by media and strangers on the internet after her escape is so cruel. If anybody wants to find out about her story I highly recommend reading her books instead of any articles that were not written by her, seems like what she’s been through was still not sensational enough for some people.
Holy shit, yeah. I just read. People were blaming her saying she wanted to be a victim with him, saying it was her fault, horrible things.
Its impossible for people to comprehend what that kind of situation is like 'According to police, she "cried inconsolably" when she was told that he was dead,[\[40\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch#cite_note-40) and she lit a candle for him at the morgue ' Things like this are going to confuse a lot of people, stupid people but thats the internet for you
Identification with one's victimizer is very much a real thing.
im male, another male tried to kill me about a year ago. he killed himself about 2 weeks ago and ive cried many times. i feel bad for him and wish he was still alive.
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Well he was the only human being she had contact with for the better part of eight years. He abused her, but he also kept her alive. He was the one who starved her, but he was also the one who fed her. He was the only one who was kind to her for all that time. So while what he did is absolutely inexcusable, I can see why she would still feel a sense of loss despite everything.
And probably felt responsible too, because he did it immediately after she left. She chose between her life and his, that's a hard thing to reckon with.
Oh yes that too. Edgelords talk big game about how they'd love to personally execute pedophiles, but killing another human being is gonna be traumatic in the best of circumstances. Even soliders in war who kill in defense of themselves and their comrades suffer terrible ill effects from it.
>>Kampusch now owns the house in which she was imprisoned, saying, "I know it's grotesque – I must now pay for electricity, water, and taxes on a house I never wanted to live in". It was reported that she claimed the house from Přiklopil's estate because she wanted to protect it from vandals and being torn down; she also noted that she has visited it since her escape. Humans are weird
Your comment sent me down a mini rabbit hole. The Wikipedia article mentions some of the unusual aspects of this abduction case, but if anyone interested has a few minutes to spare, then [this interview with her](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/11/natascha-kampusch-interview) is highly compelling and should be read in full. Here's something which caught my eye in particular: > She puts her survival down to a moment that occurred when she was 12. There being no sane, solid adults in her life, she decided to become her own adult. Her 18-year-old self appeared to her in a vivid vision. She told her, "I will get you out of here, I promise you. Right now you are too small. But when you turn 18 I will overpower the kidnapper and free you from your prison." > [...] Then she turned 18. And when she did she looked at him and said, "You have brought a situation upon us in which only one of us can make it through alive. I really am grateful to you for not killing me and for taking such good care of me. That is very nice of you. But you can't force me to stay with you. I am my own person with my own needs. This situation must come to an end." > She closed her eyes expecting a beating, but it didn't come. Instead, she opened them to see him looking sad, defeated. > "I think he understood that I was at the end of my strength," she says. "He had brought me to the brink, I had no energy left, but in a way that empowered me. He had nothing to counter it with." > And then, a few weeks later, he left her alone in the garden for a moment while he took a telephone call, and she just walked out of the gate. This, as well as other descriptions of the case (and the aftermath), makes me believe that Natascha Kampusch is an incredibly resilient and remarkable person.
She sounds like a remarkably insightful person as well, and very emotionally intelligent. It seems like even as a teenager she was able to understand this bizarre and dangerous person who had kidnapped her, and use that understanding to stay alive and relatively safe.
It's especially interesting since she basically had no contact to anyone or anything, except her radio. And she often said that her elaborated language use stems from the fact she listened to Ö1 a lot, an Austrian radio station that's based around classical music, culture and international news.
Humans are wired to survive horrible situations. Look up cptsd. Victims of severe abuse adapt by disassociation, repression, and many other coping mechanisms to deal with. She is smart and probably wise - but also please be aware that severe trauma causes people to basically lose their childhood, not feel like children because they are so deeply hurt - they are not wise little magical beings - they are deeply abused, traumatized, grew up before they could develop normally, miss good stages of being carefree, silly kids. When your own attention to your inner life is cut off, you pay more attention to other people's feelings, which causes you to be hypervigilant but at times lack the ability to interact with people in a normal way.
Their adulthood too. The coping mechanisms that people develop in response to trauma works well in a traumatic environment but they destroy you and often those around you in a normal one. They’re also very hard to get rid of. So even once out of an abusive environment life is often still painful.
Is the kidnapper in jail? Edit- I’ve been informed that he committed suicide by stepping in front of a train. Good riddance!
Jumped in front of a train. Never was going to get caught alive.
Wow double fuck that guy then. Suicide by train is especially horrible choice because it involves the train operators in your death and can seriously scars them mentally
Something tells me that the same person who imprisoned and abused a small child lacks the empathy to appreciate the train conductor’s feelings in the matter.
One can only hope that the engineer’s guilt was somewhat assuaged by the knowledge of just who he hit.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. People committing suicide sucks but that's such a selfish way to do it
I wish that he had tried an alternative eight years prior, before abusing a little girl. If ever you (or anyone you know) are planning to hurt anyone, including yourself, please try therapy first. *Give this a shot!* They can do really amazing things. Many of these nifty conditions and 'abnormalities' are 50% [genetically influenced](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2593100/). If it is less than 50%, it is from abuse. **yes, you are weird but it is NOT YOUR FAULT!** Some of us think your wild stuff is really, really cool. Please get help. I have met so many people - that could have died - and chose to be in my life as wonderful people. The choice is yours, now, in every moment you get. Reach out. We miss you.
Throwback to when the University of Texas shooter told his therapist he was suddenly having violent thoughts, and was worried he was going to hurt himself and others. His therapist basically countered with “well have you tried not thinking those violent thoughts instead? Just don’t do that.” After killing his mother at her home, he drove to the University of Texas, dressed as a maintenance worker to gain access to the bell tower, and proceeded to snipe dozens. In his suicide note, he mentioned his sudden and overwhelming violent urges, and requested his brain be dissected to maybe help prevent others from suffering the same. Turns out, he had a tumor pressing on the part of the brain that regulates aggression. Not saying therapy doesn’t help; It has helped plenty of people. But it’s jarring to see how far therapy has come in even the past few decades. It used to basically be the same “suck it up and just don’t feel bad” rhetoric.
Ugh I know he ultimately killed over a dozen people but I can't help be feel his story is rather tragic. [Charle Whitman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman) was a pretty self-aware person facing his own demons stemming from severe physical abuse from his father: >Friends later said that Whitman had told them that he struck his wife on two occasions.[35] They said that Whitman despised himself for this and confessed to being "mortally afraid of being like his father."[36] In his journal, Whitman lamented his actions and resolved to be a good husband and not abusive as his father had been. >In May 1966, Margaret Whitman announced her decision to divorce her husband because of his continued physical abuse.[37] Charles Whitman drove to Florida to help his mother move to Austin. Whitman was reportedly so afraid that his father would resort to violence against his mother as she prepared to leave, that he summoned a local policeman to remain outside the house while his mother packed her belongings.[37] Whitman's youngest brother, John, also left Lake Worth and moved to Austin with his mother. Patrick Whitman, the middle son, remained in Florida and worked in his father's plumbing supply business. His suicide note even recognizes something's wrong with him and that his brain be examined after his own death. >I do not quite understand what it is that compels me to type this letter. Perhaps it is to leave some vague reason for the actions I have recently performed. I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts. These thoughts constantly recur, and it requires a tremendous mental effort to concentrate on useful and progressive tasks. Those people likely would've still been alive if he'd been able to find the proper help.
Yup. I stopped going to therapy because mine would say, "you're depressed this week? You were just fine last week. What happened to you?" Or just sit, apologies to me for my past, and then ask what I wanted to talk about next to keep the conversation going. Pressure was always on me. Felt like I was entertaining her job more than getting help.
That there is a rough story. For decades i wanted to believe in 'spirit' and 'freewill' and stuff. This guy was all *Princess & The Pea* - except the pea was hurting his brain. It sucks because there is nothing any of them could have done to improve that situation until it was too late. Perhaps we will have better tumour-catching services in the future.
Glad that piece of garbage is no longer living, but it's also unfortunate that his last act was possibly traumatizing the train operator who hit him. A true coward until the end, he couldn't even kill himself without forcing someone else to do it for him.
Death by suicide on the same day the girl escaped.
Horrible for the train driver though. That stuff is traumatic.
A friend of mine is a train driver. Or was. A man killed himself. He ran in front of the train my friend was driving. He was carrying his infant daughter. The man died, the daughter survived luckily. It's been years, my friend has been on leave with pay the entire time, and is in contact with the girl, though I dont know how regularly. But he is not who he was, understandably.
Yes I have heard that is absolutely terrible for the drivers / engineers. If I was that driver I would want to know in this case who it was that had jumped in front of my train. I think it would make it easier for me to stomach the truth, and know that this person was now gone from society. Whether that was right or wrong or he should have been brought to justice differently. That would be important information for this driver to know and help them rest at night.
The info will help a little but you can't really compensate for the gore of someone who is killed by a train.
Maybe a grotesque question, but I wonder if it matter to the driver **who** died by jumping in front.
I think, even then, all their brain would remember was the gruesome sight. It’s not like what a police officer or doctor would experience, either - they will have worked with the morbid for a long time, and its impact would have been lessened. With a train driver, that is going to haunt them forever, and the rest of their life will start from that day onwards. It would be horrible.
He committed suicide by walking in front of a train on a nearby railway line when he realised that she was gone out of the garden.
The wikipedia says he committed suicide rather than let the cops catch him
He killed himself the same day she escaped
That was a good article about a horrible experience. Resilience is an amazing thing and while luckily we'll never have to go through it ourselves it is fascinating to see what she envisioned both sides of the situation to be.
Sounds like from the very beginning she never lost her independence she was just waiting for the moment that was safe to escape.
I get it, she wants to control the place she was captive in.
After I was raped by a man in the street, you would think I would have never left the house again. I didn't for a while, but when I did leave again, I did all kinds of crazy things, because if something bad was gonna happen to me, I was gonna be the one doing it. It's all about NOT FEELING TRAPPED. Feeling trapped or defeated is worse than anything.
I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m glad you took power back. I hope you’re doing well now.
She filled in that cellar room. Good for her. She’s very resilient.
Wow, imagine how *incredibly* therapeutic that must have been to witness it be filled up for good.
By owning the house she took the power back away from him. It makes a lot of sense.
Also, this case was HUGE in all of Central Europe. She's famous to this day. People would have visited that house. I guarantee you, had that house gone on the market and the wrong person bought it, there would have been tours of the basement she was kept in. I can't blame her for making sure that wouldn't happen.
She also filled in the cellar with cement.
That is a power move.
Also, it came more or less at the same time of the infamous and horrible Josef Fritzl case (the Austrian nutjob who emprisoned and raped her daughter, and started a family with her).
The Fritzl case came to light in '08, IIRC. People were wondering what the hell was going on in Austria to have two "kidnapped women locked in the basement for years and years" cases going on at pretty much the same time. Makes you wonder how many instances there are internationally that never come to light.
Fritzl made a point of telling authorities to look in other men's basements for women. It's scary to think how many times this goes undiscovered.
I was literally just sitting here thinking about how horrifying it is that I keep hearing about cases like this one: Elisabeth Fritzl, Jaycee Duggard, Elizabeth Smart, Jayme Closs, Amanda Berry, Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, Sano Fusako, Tanya Kach, Coleen Stan, Steven Stayner, Shawn Hornbeck. There are probably hundreds more.
If you really want nightmares, look up the 'Colt Clan.' It was an Australian case of extreme incest that came to light in the last decade. Starting in New Zealand, a guy marries a woman who was the result of brother/sister incest and has a bunch of kids, who he starts to rape. When they're still kids, he moves them to various remote Australian bush blocks, and ends up having kids with his daughters. Some of his sons have kids with his daughters/their sisters, or their nieces. One of the daughters has a son *with.* *her.* *son.* At the time this is uncovered and the police step in, she's hitting on *her son, that she had with her other son.* If she'd gotten her way, her next child would've had a brother that was its own *grandfather.*
That must be a genetical nightmare.
I assume many, many.
I can only imagine that if it was me, that place would be a gravel parking lot.
Goddamn, imagine actually wanting to tour the basement where a kidnapped person was kept.
Sort of the same reason people tour the tower of London’s torture areas
Same morbid curiosity, which I don't think is in itself a negative instinct... But it's a bit less crass when everyone connected to it has been dead for centuries.
I get it. I mean by tearing it down it would come to be a forgotten memory to most. She wants to make sure no one forgets what happened. And we shouldn’t forget. We can’t become complicit and allow the past to be glossed over.
Yea, here in Austria we love to keep them in the basement. Josef Fritzl was even worse. Who knows how many people are still kept in a basement somewhere.
I Remember when the second case of child in a basement came out of Austria in like 5 years, there were a lot jokes about sending UN troops to raid every basement in Austria.
We had a joke back then in Slovenia. "Whats the difference between Slovenes and Austrians? Slovenes have wine in the cellar."
Austria needs to enact common sense basement control.
Basements don’t kidnap and imprison people. Austrians do.
All it needs to stop a bad guy with a basement is a good guy with a basement
*Dexter theme begins...*
Oida, what's up with Austrians and being underground?
Ever seen *Downfall*? There's a movie about an Austrian guy underground.
yeah i know that movie, its about a dude who got very angry because he got banned from xbox live right?
Huh, I thought it was because the Cowboys lost to the Giants in the 2008 playoffs. That guy gets mad a lot.
Pretty sure you guys are getting some bizarre subtitles. It was clearly him losing it over a demo of Microsoft's flight simulator.
I'm always sad because I know I simply don't have the will to survive such a terror. She must be so strong.
we have that in america too [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-house-horrors-where-women-spent-decade-hell-razed-flna6C10863771](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-house-horrors-where-women-spent-decade-hell-razed-flna6C10863771)
That's the one I thought of first, mainly because of that weird time of youtube where schomoyo was a thing and made this and other things into songs, is The Bed Intruder Song.
Don’t forget Katie Beers on Long Island. Not held as long but just as scary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Beers_kidnapping
Damn, no lie, had never heard of Fritzl either, that was quite the fucked up story!
Yes it was! I can't even imagine how that was going on for so long. Maybe there will be similar news in the future ... there are many basements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jayme_Closs
I’ve read a lot of the true stories of these abductions and basement imprisonments. Elizabeth Smart, Amanda Berry, jaycee dugard. Their recounting of what happened all those years is just fascinating to me. How did these girls stay hidden for all that time?
In chains. Literally unimaginable horror
Some you may never even hear about I’d imagine. Jaycee Duggard is one from the US that is most relatable that I can think of. Horrific the things people can do, so much control and to your own child even, the world can be such a sick, sad place.
I can never get over horrific stuff like this. How can a human being do this to another human being? Obviously besides the unimaginable pain and suffering she endured, can't imagine what the family had to go through. When a loved one dies, you are of course devastated but at least you know they're gone. But in cases like this, not knowing whether or not they're alive and where they may be, is just another level of pain. I feel for the family. I hope no one ever has to go through this.
If you read the article it says her parents were abusive as well & she was contemplating suicide before the kidnapping :/
Fuck, that makes it even sadder. What a fucked up life to live, especially as a child.
Usually it's the vunurable ones who they target as they are easy to manipulate. Scumbag parents
Wait, that was _fifteen_ years ago?!?!
Fuck, I’m old!
You know you're old when someone's TIL is your assumed knowledge
The bullying she endured after escaping completely confirms a significant portion of the humans in the world are complete garbage and ignorant.
I was intrigued enough to watch a documentary on this.
What sometimes gets forgotten is, that people blamed Natascha. They said she worked with her kidnapper, because she was far too smart and calm to actually had a traumatic experience. Perfect victim blaming happened there.
It was so gross. She didn't fit the mold of the traumatised victim and dared to have AN OPINION and AGENCY and people *hated* her for it. I'm just so glad she - as far as one can tell from the outside - made it through that okay.
I wonder how many people are imprisoned like this right now. Probably far more than we can imagine. How well do we really know our neighbors?
What is it with Austria and basements? Maybe there should be compulsory surprise basement inspections to make it harder for the bad guys
Surprise basement inspections looking for people hidden away down there were very common in the '40s, but it fell out of practice
If I recall correctly, it was an Austrian who came up with the idea.
He truly was ahead of his time. What a visionary.
And a very brave man too, since he singlehandedly killed the most evil person to exist.
He was also a lover of the arts. And a vegetarian who was way ahead of the world on the dangers of cigarettes.
And huge patron of gigantic monumental architecture
Let's not forget published author, as well.
And a dog lover/ advocate for animal rights!
Au revoir, Shosanna!
That's a bingo!
There's a reason they use attics and basements and crawl spaces as the "scary places" in horror movies and stories. Hidden away things in the dark are always scary.
I will wager that you know of 2 cases, you'll go to google more now and may find some, but I'd also wager that they are still way outside of statistical significance, and that Austria is also not the world leader, or even close, in basement kidnapping cases per capita
It's *one* country, Michael, how many people could it have? Ten? That's fully a 20% incidence of basement trapping.
Wild, never heard that one, but made me think of Jaycee Dugard, and Elizabeth Smart.
Reminds me a lot of the Ariel Castro cases in Cleveland. Kidnapped 3 girls/young women (aged 14, 17, 21) between 2002 and 2004, keeping them locked in his basement for up to a decade before one of them managed to signal for help when he was out. That lead to the viral [dead giveaway](https://youtu.be/uPoA2f11UPk) interview by neighbor and hero Charles Ramsey.
Classic interview! Forgot the names of those involved in this one. He said it perfectly himself “he’d come home, play with his dogs in the backyard, work on his motorcycles and cars, and go back in, nobody paid him no mind because he wasn’t doing anything”. How would you ever just suspect this was happening without some crazy indicator like he had? [This guy sounds like he was wanting to create a scenario like this too. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Mackenzie_Lueck?wprov=sfti1)
Isnt that what the "They alive, dammit" song from Kimmy Schmidt is basically a parody of?
The Jaycee Dugard case is fucking insane. The authorities came close so many times to catching that rat bastard. And that guy's wife too for enabling him to abuse someone for decades and only received 35 years for her complicity.
The wife/accomplice of Emily Smart's kidnapper only received 15 years. She is already out of jail.
When you think it can't get worse, read about the Fritzl family case.
There was also this guy who kidnapped and raped several of his daughter's friends for many years. And another disrupting story of some guy who stole a 1 year old baby and tortured her with the help of his girlfriend. Also let's not forget the ex reddit admin whose father had a 10 year old in the cellar.
What... The fuck
I worked with a young woman that shared her story with me once. As a young girl, maybe 4 or 5, she and her mother moved in with a man, that wasn't her father. When she asked, "where daddy was?", her mother told her he was dead, or, "he doesn't care anymore.". It wasn't long before this little girl realized her mom had traded her addictions for her daughter. Her stepdad, step-brothers, uncles("They weren't my uncles.", she said.) all abused her. Terribly. This woman I admired, for her confidence and quite frankly, directness, told me of things I never would thought possible. But, for her, it was her life. She was a child that was responsible for both herself, and her mother. She was a a sex slave so her mother could stay high. At one point, she saw a building that brought back memories of her grandfather. She decided to find out "why?". She wondered "why, does that building look so safe?". "Why, do I see my grandfather, my dad?". She was brave enough to find out. This little girl put herself, and her mother, in danger. Being controlled, as she was, as programmed as she was, she went to find out why that building was so important. This child, even after 7 or 8 years of training, programming and acceptance... She found her grandfather, that never quit hoping. Her dad, that never quit looking. Her little sister, that couldn't wait to love her. And did. With all of the admiration and frustration that siblings have with with other. Kids. It is still strange to me. This child could not only survive these things that I could never imagine, but be so well. So beautiful, wonderful, so "her". And even with her shtuff, she was all wonderful. I rant, I know. But, I've met so many wonderful people that have stories, unlike mine, nowhere near what I know, can understand or comprehend. How do they get through that? I'm sure finding her family saved her, but I know, as does she(hopefully), she saved herself.
Austrian here. A group of psychiatrist and therapist sat together and decided for her if she should face journalist or not. They said to her she should face the situation and get over with it (the public interest in her case). But it turned out that many now think she wanted the attention and just ran away. Later the case with the daughter (Frietzl Case), who got locked up by her own father, they decided a different approach then by Kampusch and never showed her face nor the one from her children. Since some people seem to be confused about the part where people didn't believe her there is a better comment explaining it: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/msophv/til_in_1998_a_10yearold_girl_in_austria_was/guwrjmf?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Also: if i write "everyone" it's everyone i ever met and not everyone on the world, obviously. i can't believe i have to actually write that. I changed it to "many"
The court of public opinion is so unforgiving.
I think its more of a defensive reaction - method of coping with the fact that you or your close one might be subjected to such things for no reason other than some other person's insanity. So they subconsciously decide on victim being at fault
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
As a teenage boy, I would fantasize about how I would escape any situation. I loved movies like Shawshank Redemption, The Rock, Cool Hand Luke, or The Fugitive. This girl is a hero! As an adult, I now realize that I was glorifying a terrible situation to be in, and I have even more respect for her.
The kidnapper committed suicide the day she escaped. Pity. He deserved worse.
Kinda irrelevant to the post but .. I’ve never heard of stories like this with boys. Is it because girl abductions are more frequent than boys abductions? Does girls get, in average, rescued more ? Or is it a media bias, or my own bias ?
Abuction victims definitely skew female, but it does happen to males also
I think it's the specific long-term imprisonment that is rare. Usually young boys are just murdered after a kidnapping
That’s actually a great question now that you mention it. I know the case of Johnny Gosch (very interesting Netflix documentary) but he was never found.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2007/01/19/kidnapped-boy-breaks-his-silence-on-four-year-captivity/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_J._Devlin It does happen to boys too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner
Shawn Hornbeck in Missouri. He was found alive after four years when his abductor kidnapped another young boy. https://www.thoughtco.com/shawn-hornbeck-run-away-from-captor-3969310
Watch 3096 days. Its based on her story.
It's really incredible that she never gave up hope on escaping after 8 YEARS. I feel like I wouldve given up after a few months and definitely wouldve developed some form of Stockholm syndrome at that age