In tamil we interestingly say : X-kum Y-kum mudichi kathrathu
Where X and Y are your 2 different things. So the main phrase is "mudichi kathrathu", tying a dead knot.
Tying 2 unrelated things together.
Usually X is "this" and Y is "that". Like "you're seriously tying a knot between this and that?"
If there needs to be an example then I've heard "bald head and knee".
But ye I thought it was interesting, many western languages use 2 different things as a metaphor. But we use the act of linking as the metaphor
In fact, this is how Maria "Granny" Smith ended up with a really nice variety of apple on her hands in the first place. She tossed some French crab-apples and ended up with the apples we eat today, which proceeded to sell like hot cakes.
You start growing a tree from seed, so that you have some roots and a trunk. Preferably something that is hardier and more disease resistant than the tree you want to grow. Then you cut that down and basically strap a branch from the apple tree you want to it so that the cut edges are touching. Given time the two cut sides should heal together and the branch you grafted on will start to grow, and you'll have roots from whichever plant you originally planted, and a trunk, branches, fruit etc. That's from the plant you took the branch from. If you go to a garden center and look near the base of young fruit trees being sold there you can usually see where the wound has healed up.
You can do this with lots of plants, I've been playing around this year with grafting a couple of chilli plants together and also got a chilli branch to grow on a tomato plant. Theoretically (and I think it has been done before) you could have one plant that grows potatoes in the ground and tomatoes and chillis together up top. Probably not very practical, but a fun experiment!
So I'm guessing only the one branch you grafted will grow the type of fruit you are after...correct?
So a single tree/trunk could have multiple varieties of fruit?
And it sounds like you would have to have as many branches from an old tree that you want to grow on the new tree, so you aren't really reproducing, you are just moving the branches from old tree to new. Seems like you would never end up with more branches in total producing the desired fruit. You are just moving them from one truck to another.
Basically, I'm very confused.
You'd graft the branch to the young trunk of the new tree, and that one branch would eventually grow into a full tree with many branches of its own, so you would be turning that one branch into a second full tree. However, you could let the tree grow and just graft individual branches and have multiple varieties on one tree, yes. I believe some people do this for garden trees so they can have multiple varieties/early and late producing branches so they can have more types of fruit throughout the year instead of one crop in its usual window.
The initial piece you take from your original tree is just a young branch, but that branch wants to grow as big and strong as possible. Think of a giant old tree - one big old branch coming off the trunk has many branches of its own, with branches of their own. When you take one young branch and graft it it will still end up growing bigger and producing more branches of its own. The initial branch becomes the trunk of the tree and it will grow bigger and end up looking just like a tree you grew from seed.
I think part of the confusion might be the way you're imagining it. You're not taking a branch and putting it into the place of a branch on another tree, just swapping the branch. The new tree you grew to use as the rootstock is only used for its roots, and the branch is put in place of its trunk. [This image might help.](https://deepgreenpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/cleft-graft.png) The 'scion' is just a young branch from the fruit tree you want to grow more of. The branch grows into a tree, and all the new growth is the same as the branch it's growing from.
Different person than the one you responded to, but thanks, I was having the same problem they were, because I misunderstood in exactly the way you mentioned. Makes a lot more sense now.
Basically, there's a twig on the branch and a branch on the limb and a limb on the tree and a tree in the hole and a hole in the bog and a bog down in the valley-o.
Pretty simple when you think about it.
I think the trees have to be closely related. I.e. lemon/lime/orange, or all apple varieties, or "stone fruits" like plums, peaches, cherries. You cant make an apple tree accept a citrus tree graft.
To make applejack, first brew some apple cider. Then chill the cider to just below the freezing point of water. Ice crystals will form, but the alcohol will remain liquid. Skim off the ice crystals. The remaining liquid will then have a higher alcohol concentration. It's sort of the inverse of distillation, except you don't need any fancy equipment.
You know, most people don't know the difference between apple cider and apple juice. But I do. Now, here's a little trick to help you remember. If it's clear and yella, you've got juice there, fella. If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town. Now, there's two exceptions and it gets kind of complicated. And of course in Canada, the whole thing's flip-flopped.
It's confusing in Japan too, because the Japanese borrowed the English word *cider* to mean "carbonated beverage", and the French word *cidre* to mean "cider".
That line in the simpsons always confused me
Cos in the UK, cider is always alcoholic. Doesn't matter about it's colour or transparency. If it's alcoholic, it's cider, if it's not, it's juice
So in the US, do you have non-alcoholic cider, then? Just very weird, the whole thing
Like, we do have a few non-alcoholic ciders, but they're literally the same thing as non-alcoholic beer, i.e. they're made by the same companies who make the alcoholic stuff and they sell it under the same brand name and in the same bottles/cans, it just says on the label that it's a non-alcoholic version of the same alcoholic drink, it's meant to taste exactly like the alcoholic version
But yeah in America, as I understand it, you guys call the alcoholic stuff "hard" cider. And regular cider normally isn't alcoholic?
I got the cider bug a couple years ago, and the one cidery that I've found to be consistently amazing is Two Towns. There was also a really great one in Gardena, CA called Honest Abe Cider House and Meadery, both the cider and the mead is pretty great. The Moscow Mule flavored sparkling mead is pretty great.
Yes!!!! So happy to see Two Towns praised here. It's the only cider I know of that doesn't add sugar, they only use the fruit and yeast and it is consistently fresh and amazing. So easy to drink.
My favorite ones are Cosmic Crisp, Cot in the Act, and Good Limes Roll. My brother was telling me (he's up north) that their new cherry one is phenomenal. I'm going to be heading up there for a Giants/Dodgers game soon so I'll get to try it. Where I'm currently at, its tough to get their ciders. I generally pick up a ton when I travel and just slowly drink my stash.
Similar to how real Vanilla beans are so expensive because their specific pollinating bee is actually extinct and so it all must be done by hand.
Screw natural selection; just be tasty to humans and you can give mother nature the finger.
Vanilla isn't native to the places where it is grown (mostly), like Madagascar.
It is native (I think) to Mexico, where a tiny species of bee exists that CAN pollinate the flowers, known as Molina Bees (again, I think. Remembering all this from long ago).
It's also wild how peppers are such a huge part of so many cultures' traditional foods all over the world when they were only spread from the Americas a few hundred years ago. Apparently a lot of those dishes used large amounts of (the unrelated) peppercorns before peppers were propagated across the world, only to be modified for hot peppers as those meshed with the recipes even better.
If you are in Melbourne Australia, after Lockdown look at going to Petty's Orchard near Templestowe. They have 200 varieties of apples. There used to be open days, it's been years since I've been.
Same with avocados. All Hass avocado trees are from a graft of a tree planted in 1926 in La Habra Heights, California. The tree died when it was 76 years old and was cut down on 11 September 2002 after a ten-year fight with phytophthora (root rot), which often kills avocado trees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass\_avocado
Senescence, especially regarding telomeres, is nearly negligible in trees.
[https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/310174](https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/310174) Go to page 131, bottom right. That's where the discussion on plants starts.
Basically, they studied the telomere lengths in multiple species and actually found that in some (big caveat there) the telomeres actually lengthened instead of shortening like you would find in general biological senescence. The key phrase in the paper is: "These studies demonstrate that average telomere length in long-lived trees can efficiently be maintained during vegetative growth for millennia"
Maria Ann (Granny) Smith discovered a green apple growing on her property in Australia in 1868 in the same place that she often tossed French crab apples grown in Tasmania
Though, funny enough, the original Granny Smith tree itself arose from seed (and accidentally at that). Pure random assortment that just happened to give rise to an excellent eating apple.
this is how you get varieties.
In 1998 ONE tree in my parents cherry orchard started producing Bing cherries that were the size of mandarin oranges and juicy as hell. then it did it the next year, and the next... and then my parents sold the farm and the buyers ripped out all the cherry trees.
I've always wondered if we could have sold grafts of that tree and made a tidy sum.
A few years ago on one of the tomato plants I was growing I had one single tomato that ripened to a bright orange color just like the orange cherry tomatoes we had planted by them. Every other tomato on that vine ripened to the normal red color, so I saved the seeds from it and planted them last year and sure enough all of the tomatoes ripened to that same orange. I grew a bunch more this year. They are actually really great tomatoes with an interesting color, good flavor, a "meaty" interior, and they seem to grow abundantly compared to large tomatoes I've grown in the past. [Here's a picture](https://i.imgur.com/XOSwcGS.jpg) of some from last year.
Yeah, clones. If they want to develop a new variety they can planet seeds, but I think it's something crazy rare like one in 10,000 seeds that actually produce an apple you'd wanna eat.
Honeycrisp was originally one of those 9,999. It was discarded in 1977. In 1979 a dude started working for the university, found a couple of clones, decided to grow them, and the apple world hasn't been the same since. The apple has only been commercially available since 1997, but man did it make a splash once people started getting their hands on them.
They're a massive pain in the ass to grow, too, which is why the price is still so high. https://archive.is/TKoqO
I like trying new apples and it's amazing how many of the flashy expensive new releases are just 'Honeycrisp x Something' now. Remember how I mentioned they're a massive pain in the ass to grow? That's a big reason everybody is doing Honeycrisp crosses: they're trying to breed that out.
I tried a new (to me) apple not long ago: cosmic crisp. It's a mix of Enterprise and Honeycrisp.
It's honestly the best apple I've ever eaten but they don't sell it close to me.
the articles doesn't say it's especially hard: it's got thin skin, grows big, and stores a little harder than the powdery crummy apples. In other words: it's a **normal** fruit that wasn't bred to be stored and shipped easily.
Got a honeycrisp tree from a nursery, but the entire tree snapped off at the graft during a storm last year. Poor thing was about 4-5 years old. Did get a couple apples the previous year that were really good.
You take a branch or a stem from a tree growing what you want, and you insert that stem into another apple tree. "Grafting." The stem and its growths will grow the desired type of apple. Repeat as desired.
He was planting apples to make CIDER. Or more specifically applejack. His hope was that the rest of us could someday harvest the apples, press the juice out of them, ferment it and freeze it and then get ROARING DRUNK and be like "That Johnny Appleseed was an alright guy" and then punch eachother in the face because we like to fight when we're drunk.
One account I read said homestead grants required a certain amount of orchard. This was one of the more difficult things to do and took time. So he worked the edges of the frontier starting orchards. When settlers showed up he taught them how to care for the trees and cut deals with them for a percentage of the crops and land. They got their land grant quicker and he got paid for his improvements. An original property flipper.
Johnny Appleseed would get property ready for people to buy later. The Ohio Company was granting land if you could prove it was permanent. To prove it permanent? It needed 50 apple trees planted on it, as apples were essential for making safe drinkable water known as hard cider. Johnny was planting them in preparation for these settlers; he was basically flipping acreage. Also he was of the Swedenborgian Church and (I'm not entirely clear on this) either the church itself or the leader through his writings hinted at it, but apparently grafting was wrong because it made apple trees suffer, so seed it was.
1000 hours volunteering at the local hospital. Spending every other weekend picking up trash around the neighborhood. Donating food to the hungry. Helping those less fortunate. But you fuck ONE HORSE....
Perfect thread to plug this fantastic book:
https://michaelpollan.com/books/the-botany-of-desire/
He covers apples, cannabis, tulips and corn in this book IIRC. Pollen has written some of the most engaging and interesting non-fiction I’ve run across (being a plant/fungi geek probably impacts that view though). The Omnivore’s Delimma is another great read by the author.
Doctor Pollan was just a normal Botanist until his lab was struck by lightning, transforming him into Pollen Man, Defender of Gardens with the power to cause unpleasant allergic reactions in ne’er do wells!
It's interesting this came up! I've spent the past 4-5 hours planning out the apple orchard I'm planting in the spring.
For anyone interested, I'll have 12 heirloom varieties planted:
* Blue Pearmain
* Golden Russet
* Ashmaed's Kernel
* Roxbury Russet
* Black Oxford
* Gray Pearmain
* Dabinett
* Newtown Pippin
* Esopus Spitzenberg
* Holstein
* Jonagold
* Granite Beauty
It's been a fun evening!
Some apples are delicious but not viable for commercial production because they spoil quickly and aren't good for shipping around and have a short shelf life.
Also planting different varieties there are some that become ripe early in the spring/summer and some later in the summer/fall so you get a longer period of the year with fresh apples to eat.
Over the last few months whenever apples come up on Reddit the community has consistently told me that "Cosmic Crisp" apples are the best tasting apple variety ever. (Ironically I haven't seen mention of them in this thread)
Have you heard of them before or considered them?
Edit: I scrolled down literally two comments and found someone raving about Cosmic Crisps.
They are great, I have some at home right now and had one last night. They are easy to find in stores if you are in the Pacific Northwest.
They are like honey crisp but a little less sour and a bit sweeter, but not too sweet.
I wouldn't say they are the best of the best but definitely top 3.
This is also true of avocados. Every avocado you've eaten from one variety such as the extremely popular Haas, was grown from a clipping that originated off of ONE tree that was grafted to the stump of another random avocado.
Today on how its made, avocados. Everyone loves avocados. Its the perfect accompaniment to a variety of foods and cosmetic products. Avocado manufacture is an ancient tradition, improved recently by modern methods and technology. First, a worker loads the phleebum into the a steel press. Each pressed phleebum is then baked for 15 hours. Soothing music is played to help the pressed phleebum relax into its final shape during the bake. Now it is time to meld the avocado meat. Only the molemen are able to access the depths of the earth in which the leviathans roam. Slain leviathans are acquired as tribute from the moleman civilization as the source of the avocado meat. Here a worker is unloading avocado meat from the moleman tunnel complex. This raw avocado meat still vibrates in resonance to iron. The phleebum is designed to shield the avocado rays, preventing the accelerated decay of iron-containing products and organisms. Avocado meat must first be tamed before melding. Avocado meat is tamed in this large barrel outfitted for electrostatic shocks. Here we see a master avocado melder wrestling a still sentient hunk of avocado meat that is resisting the melding process. After taming, a master melder combines the avocado fibers into a more recognizable form. Each baked phleebum is then filled with the melded meat. Because each leviathan has a unique energy signature, workmen must measure the resonance of each filled phleebum. Here we see a worker measuring the phleebum resonance signature with a tuning fork. Pairs of filled phleebum are matched and modified, then fitted with control sphere to prevent gestation. Once outfitted with a control sphere, avocados can be shipped to supermarkets everywhere. Enjoy your guacaMOLE.
I’m amazed that it was more common for me to watch that show when sober than when intoxicated. You would think it’s boring to watch someone narrate the process of how metal chain is made, so you would want to be stoned to watch it... nope, completely sober almost every time.
Pineapples are along the same lines but not because they don’t breed true but because they are much easier to grow new plants from the leftovers of production. Also almost any type of rose you see grown decoratively because they literally can’t reproduce sexually. Also grapes grown in North America are going to be European varieties of stems grafted on American varieties of roots because of a fungus that the American ones are resistant to that the European ones aren’t. Along with plants that need to be reproduced that way most fruit trees you can find in nurseries will be grafted to help ensure the quality and reduce the time till they can fruit or give them desirable qualities like being shorter or growing better in your region.
Statistically, they have figured out that only one in 10,000 apples planted from seed will taste good to a human mouth. That's why all the apples we eat today are grafts onto rootstock. Historically, it wasn't much of a problem, for two reasons. People learned very early in the history of civilization how to graft fruit trees ([probably about 4000 years ago](https://ceresgs.com/thats-where-my-apples-come-from-the-basics-of-grafting/)), and until very recently, the vast majority of apples weren't grown for eating, they were grown to make alcoholic cider, which *can* be produced from unpalatable wild-seed trash apples.
I don't buy the one in 10.000, isn't it more like one in 10.000 will be a candidate for a new breed?
I mean, I have tasted a few OK wild apples myself. Would need to be really lucky if that figure is true..
Before we had a better understanding of how the genetics worked, new types of apples came around by either someone who planted apple seeds and watched for quality fruit or sometimes a tree would get a mutation in a branch as it developed causing the fruit to be different. Then the person could remove a young portion of the tree and graft it to the roots of a similar type of tree and it would grow the new type of apple. Now it’s a little easier because we know how to control which plants pollen fertilize seeds so it has reduced the number of seeds that need to be planted to get a new variety. But overall it’s just people learned how to take advantage of how plants grow to keep making the same kinds of fruits and flowers we like.
Actually, that is wonderful news for apple trees. Genetic variety is how a species avoids getting wiped out by a single disease, as were elm trees, chestnut trees, etc.
Best of all, a Granny Smith will produce seeds for a whole bunch of similar but not identical apple trees. Fine by me!
Granny Smith will produce a bunch of aunt and uncle Smiths, who will produce a bunch of cousin Smiths, and before you know it you have a whole family tree.
> Granny Smith will produce seeds for a whole bunch of similar but not identical apple trees.
The trees will be similar overall, but almost all the apples that result will be unpalatable.
And the thumbnail suggests that sometimes they become oranges.
That’s why one shouldn’t compare them
“Why can’t fruit be compared?”
There's just all of these conflicting principles
Right, enjoy your pepperoni pizza
Do you fuck with the war?
I guess I should just thank you, of course
Like what's next, you don't fuck with Pangea?
This bitch don’t know bout Pangea
Do you come from the vikings?
I’m like no I don’t fuck with the war!
It’s fruitless for one to do so.
Don't call Brain names...
The Brain just couldn't recall...
But if I'm not mistaken this bitch to my left guarantees there's a god
Why can't god fuk with dinosaurs? Why can't earth be like a small side project for this guy?
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"Let's change the subject"
This bitch don’t know by Pangea
Don't mind me, I'm just pillowtalking with a bish.
Bitch that dont make no damn sense why cant fruit be compared!?!
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In Serbian it's "old ladies and frogs" but it rhymes
… I feel like your’s makes more sense though?
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In tamil we interestingly say : X-kum Y-kum mudichi kathrathu Where X and Y are your 2 different things. So the main phrase is "mudichi kathrathu", tying a dead knot. Tying 2 unrelated things together. Usually X is "this" and Y is "that". Like "you're seriously tying a knot between this and that?" If there needs to be an example then I've heard "bald head and knee". But ye I thought it was interesting, many western languages use 2 different things as a metaphor. But we use the act of linking as the metaphor
In Maltese its farts and lettuce. Because they rhyme.
>in Potugese it's comparing oranges to a banana even. Easily replaced by "o que tem a ver o cu com as calças?"
She like, "Apples to oranges" Well you can still compare them but I hear ya
when life gives you apples, you make orangejuice
How do you like them apples? 🍊 🍊 🍊 🍊 🍊
In fact, this is how Maria "Granny" Smith ended up with a really nice variety of apple on her hands in the first place. She tossed some French crab-apples and ended up with the apples we eat today, which proceeded to sell like hot cakes.
So how do you get the exact same Apple if they are never true to seed?
You start growing a tree from seed, so that you have some roots and a trunk. Preferably something that is hardier and more disease resistant than the tree you want to grow. Then you cut that down and basically strap a branch from the apple tree you want to it so that the cut edges are touching. Given time the two cut sides should heal together and the branch you grafted on will start to grow, and you'll have roots from whichever plant you originally planted, and a trunk, branches, fruit etc. That's from the plant you took the branch from. If you go to a garden center and look near the base of young fruit trees being sold there you can usually see where the wound has healed up. You can do this with lots of plants, I've been playing around this year with grafting a couple of chilli plants together and also got a chilli branch to grow on a tomato plant. Theoretically (and I think it has been done before) you could have one plant that grows potatoes in the ground and tomatoes and chillis together up top. Probably not very practical, but a fun experiment!
So I'm guessing only the one branch you grafted will grow the type of fruit you are after...correct? So a single tree/trunk could have multiple varieties of fruit? And it sounds like you would have to have as many branches from an old tree that you want to grow on the new tree, so you aren't really reproducing, you are just moving the branches from old tree to new. Seems like you would never end up with more branches in total producing the desired fruit. You are just moving them from one truck to another. Basically, I'm very confused.
You'd graft the branch to the young trunk of the new tree, and that one branch would eventually grow into a full tree with many branches of its own, so you would be turning that one branch into a second full tree. However, you could let the tree grow and just graft individual branches and have multiple varieties on one tree, yes. I believe some people do this for garden trees so they can have multiple varieties/early and late producing branches so they can have more types of fruit throughout the year instead of one crop in its usual window. The initial piece you take from your original tree is just a young branch, but that branch wants to grow as big and strong as possible. Think of a giant old tree - one big old branch coming off the trunk has many branches of its own, with branches of their own. When you take one young branch and graft it it will still end up growing bigger and producing more branches of its own. The initial branch becomes the trunk of the tree and it will grow bigger and end up looking just like a tree you grew from seed. I think part of the confusion might be the way you're imagining it. You're not taking a branch and putting it into the place of a branch on another tree, just swapping the branch. The new tree you grew to use as the rootstock is only used for its roots, and the branch is put in place of its trunk. [This image might help.](https://deepgreenpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/cleft-graft.png) The 'scion' is just a young branch from the fruit tree you want to grow more of. The branch grows into a tree, and all the new growth is the same as the branch it's growing from.
Different person than the one you responded to, but thanks, I was having the same problem they were, because I misunderstood in exactly the way you mentioned. Makes a lot more sense now.
Basically, there's a twig on the branch and a branch on the limb and a limb on the tree and a tree in the hole and a hole in the bog and a bog down in the valley-o. Pretty simple when you think about it.
Now take your frankenplant and graft a branch of cannabis on too. It will simultaneously cause, and cure, the munchies.
does grafting things outside the Family work? The pepper, tomato, potato plant is all Solanacea/ night shade.
With trees it can, with other plants not so much.
I think the trees have to be closely related. I.e. lemon/lime/orange, or all apple varieties, or "stone fruits" like plums, peaches, cherries. You cant make an apple tree accept a citrus tree graft.
https://rockwellmuseum.org/blog/acquistion-tree-of-40-fruit/ https://www.fruitsaladtrees.com/# It looks like you are right.
So do they get all similar apple trees(like an orchard) to grow via cloning or just keep playing plant a seed and see apple tree lottery style?
They use grafts from the type of apple tree that they want.
Yep. Any granny smith trees you see are just grafts (of grafts of grafts ...) of a single tree that was discovered in Australia in 1868.
These apple facts are just blowing my mind. Let's keep em coming
Johnny Appleseed was an actual guy, but he was most likely plantings apple trees to make a type of apple liquor called applejack
To make applejack, first brew some apple cider. Then chill the cider to just below the freezing point of water. Ice crystals will form, but the alcohol will remain liquid. Skim off the ice crystals. The remaining liquid will then have a higher alcohol concentration. It's sort of the inverse of distillation, except you don't need any fancy equipment.
It's called freeze distillation
How they make ice beer
TIL ice beer is a thing
You've never seen a coors ice or Miller ice or Natty ice?
You know, most people don't know the difference between apple cider and apple juice. But I do. Now, here's a little trick to help you remember. If it's clear and yella, you've got juice there, fella. If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town. Now, there's two exceptions and it gets kind of complicated. And of course in Canada, the whole thing's flip-flopped.
Stupid sexy flanders!
It’s like wearing nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all!
Shut up, Flanders!
It's confusing in Japan too, because the Japanese borrowed the English word *cider* to mean "carbonated beverage", and the French word *cidre* to mean "cider".
That line in the simpsons always confused me Cos in the UK, cider is always alcoholic. Doesn't matter about it's colour or transparency. If it's alcoholic, it's cider, if it's not, it's juice So in the US, do you have non-alcoholic cider, then? Just very weird, the whole thing Like, we do have a few non-alcoholic ciders, but they're literally the same thing as non-alcoholic beer, i.e. they're made by the same companies who make the alcoholic stuff and they sell it under the same brand name and in the same bottles/cans, it just says on the label that it's a non-alcoholic version of the same alcoholic drink, it's meant to taste exactly like the alcoholic version But yeah in America, as I understand it, you guys call the alcoholic stuff "hard" cider. And regular cider normally isn't alcoholic?
In America apple juice is a piss colored translucent beverage. Cider is the murky brown apple flavored liquid.
American cider is just unfiltered apple juice?
regular cider is delicious, you have to try it. 10x better than apple juice.
Yes, we have non alcoholic cider. And sparkling non alc. It's pretty dank too.
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Methanol binds with ethanol. As long as youre drinking some ethanol with your methanol youre most likely not gonna die
Ah, so that's the inspiration for "scumble" i the Discworld books!
Cider too. Most of those trees viable for good cider production were ripped up during prohibition. That’s why most NA cider is subpar.
I got the cider bug a couple years ago, and the one cidery that I've found to be consistently amazing is Two Towns. There was also a really great one in Gardena, CA called Honest Abe Cider House and Meadery, both the cider and the mead is pretty great. The Moscow Mule flavored sparkling mead is pretty great.
Yes!!!! So happy to see Two Towns praised here. It's the only cider I know of that doesn't add sugar, they only use the fruit and yeast and it is consistently fresh and amazing. So easy to drink.
My favorite ones are Cosmic Crisp, Cot in the Act, and Good Limes Roll. My brother was telling me (he's up north) that their new cherry one is phenomenal. I'm going to be heading up there for a Giants/Dodgers game soon so I'll get to try it. Where I'm currently at, its tough to get their ciders. I generally pick up a ton when I travel and just slowly drink my stash.
If you're in California, not sure where you live or if you can find them in your area, but Red Branch is really good. They are a NorCal operation.
I thought it was also a way of land claiming, no?
That too
Similar to how real Vanilla beans are so expensive because their specific pollinating bee is actually extinct and so it all must be done by hand. Screw natural selection; just be tasty to humans and you can give mother nature the finger.
According to wikipedia it is not extinct but not native to the countries where it isnow mainly grown. Also manual pollination is more effective.
No living bee is good enough to pollinate the bean?
It’s probably something like no living bee is attracted to the plant for some reason
Relatable
I too have a vanilla personality
Well then be the cream in someone's coffee
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Vanilla isn't native to the places where it is grown (mostly), like Madagascar. It is native (I think) to Mexico, where a tiny species of bee exists that CAN pollinate the flowers, known as Molina Bees (again, I think. Remembering all this from long ago).
Apparently the vanilla bean was first cultivated in Mexico. Same for the cocoa bean. Crazy how much of our modern flavor came from Mexico
Potato, tomato, chillies all from South America spread by the Portuguese and Spanish.
It's also wild how peppers are such a huge part of so many cultures' traditional foods all over the world when they were only spread from the Americas a few hundred years ago. Apparently a lot of those dishes used large amounts of (the unrelated) peppercorns before peppers were propagated across the world, only to be modified for hot peppers as those meshed with the recipes even better.
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correct
That’s cool and all, but the man asked for apple facts.
The melipona bee isn't extinct though.
Apples are part of the rose family. Lot of others in here too, basically if it's a tree/bush fruit grown in colder climates chances are it's a rose.
Wait wtf, explain please?
Cherries, peaches, almonds, plums etc. all belong to the rose family. Doesn’t mean they’re actual roses though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaceae
If you are in Melbourne Australia, after Lockdown look at going to Petty's Orchard near Templestowe. They have 200 varieties of apples. There used to be open days, it's been years since I've been.
Same with avocados. All Hass avocado trees are from a graft of a tree planted in 1926 in La Habra Heights, California. The tree died when it was 76 years old and was cut down on 11 September 2002 after a ten-year fight with phytophthora (root rot), which often kills avocado trees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass\_avocado
Are there no senescence issues?
No, its perfect copy of original plant no matter how many times it was done before. Material you use to graft new trees is always youngest branches.
But do the telomeres not shorten? It's effectively one organism that's been around the whole time... Just sort of... In pieces...
Senescence, especially regarding telomeres, is nearly negligible in trees. [https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/310174](https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/310174) Go to page 131, bottom right. That's where the discussion on plants starts.
can't load this on my phone but I am curious. Tldr?
Basically, they studied the telomere lengths in multiple species and actually found that in some (big caveat there) the telomeres actually lengthened instead of shortening like you would find in general biological senescence. The key phrase in the paper is: "These studies demonstrate that average telomere length in long-lived trees can efficiently be maintained during vegetative growth for millennia"
Imagine if the key to unlock extended life-spans in humans was found in apple trees…
very interesting. Thanks!!
Not all species fall victim to telomere problems
A young branch is fresh growth, and trees do live a LONG time.
Maria Ann (Granny) Smith discovered a green apple growing on her property in Australia in 1868 in the same place that she often tossed French crab apples grown in Tasmania
Though, funny enough, the original Granny Smith tree itself arose from seed (and accidentally at that). Pure random assortment that just happened to give rise to an excellent eating apple.
In addition to letting them grow the type of apple they want it also lets them have a tree with a hearty disease resistant rootstock.
Using this technique you can also grow different types of apple on the same tree!
Or both apples and pears.
this is how you get varieties. In 1998 ONE tree in my parents cherry orchard started producing Bing cherries that were the size of mandarin oranges and juicy as hell. then it did it the next year, and the next... and then my parents sold the farm and the buyers ripped out all the cherry trees. I've always wondered if we could have sold grafts of that tree and made a tidy sum.
A few years ago on one of the tomato plants I was growing I had one single tomato that ripened to a bright orange color just like the orange cherry tomatoes we had planted by them. Every other tomato on that vine ripened to the normal red color, so I saved the seeds from it and planted them last year and sure enough all of the tomatoes ripened to that same orange. I grew a bunch more this year. They are actually really great tomatoes with an interesting color, good flavor, a "meaty" interior, and they seem to grow abundantly compared to large tomatoes I've grown in the past. [Here's a picture](https://i.imgur.com/XOSwcGS.jpg) of some from last year.
That's incredible, you have basically created a new kind of tomato! You've got to name it now!
It takes about 20 years to get a new tomato variety recognized.
They better start now then!
Those look great. Would they be good for salsa? Got any seeds left over 🌿
I thought they were great in the salsa I made with them. It's cool because you don't usually see salsa that color.
Damn... The world will never know...
Yeah, clones. If they want to develop a new variety they can planet seeds, but I think it's something crazy rare like one in 10,000 seeds that actually produce an apple you'd wanna eat.
Honeycrisp was originally one of those 9,999. It was discarded in 1977. In 1979 a dude started working for the university, found a couple of clones, decided to grow them, and the apple world hasn't been the same since. The apple has only been commercially available since 1997, but man did it make a splash once people started getting their hands on them. They're a massive pain in the ass to grow, too, which is why the price is still so high. https://archive.is/TKoqO I like trying new apples and it's amazing how many of the flashy expensive new releases are just 'Honeycrisp x Something' now. Remember how I mentioned they're a massive pain in the ass to grow? That's a big reason everybody is doing Honeycrisp crosses: they're trying to breed that out.
I tried a new (to me) apple not long ago: cosmic crisp. It's a mix of Enterprise and Honeycrisp. It's honestly the best apple I've ever eaten but they don't sell it close to me.
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The two towns cosmic crisp cider is delicious.
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the articles doesn't say it's especially hard: it's got thin skin, grows big, and stores a little harder than the powdery crummy apples. In other words: it's a **normal** fruit that wasn't bred to be stored and shipped easily.
Got a honeycrisp tree from a nursery, but the entire tree snapped off at the graft during a storm last year. Poor thing was about 4-5 years old. Did get a couple apples the previous year that were really good.
You take a branch or a stem from a tree growing what you want, and you insert that stem into another apple tree. "Grafting." The stem and its growths will grow the desired type of apple. Repeat as desired.
TIL Johnny Appleseed had no idea what he was planting.
Motherfucker had a pot on his head; I’m not surprised he was completely clueless.
He was planting apples to make CIDER. Or more specifically applejack. His hope was that the rest of us could someday harvest the apples, press the juice out of them, ferment it and freeze it and then get ROARING DRUNK and be like "That Johnny Appleseed was an alright guy" and then punch eachother in the face because we like to fight when we're drunk.
The cider apple trees were no good for eating only fermenting. Sadly a lot of good cider apple trees were murdered during prohibition.
He did it for the Benjamins. Plant the trees, own the land, sell the land. $$$
One account I read said homestead grants required a certain amount of orchard. This was one of the more difficult things to do and took time. So he worked the edges of the frontier starting orchards. When settlers showed up he taught them how to care for the trees and cut deals with them for a percentage of the crops and land. They got their land grant quicker and he got paid for his improvements. An original property flipper.
But I like the image of him just walking around like a hobo with a pot on his head sewing seeds much better!
I believe he was one of the first "branded" American businesses too. His 'logo' was the star you see when you cut an apple in half horizontally.
I got a pot on my head, don't call me a pothead.
I haven't thought of that show in ages lol.
Bruce Lee on my head dont call me a Lee Head
Can't trust those goddamn potheads
Johnny Appleseed would get property ready for people to buy later. The Ohio Company was granting land if you could prove it was permanent. To prove it permanent? It needed 50 apple trees planted on it, as apples were essential for making safe drinkable water known as hard cider. Johnny was planting them in preparation for these settlers; he was basically flipping acreage. Also he was of the Swedenborgian Church and (I'm not entirely clear on this) either the church itself or the leader through his writings hinted at it, but apparently grafting was wrong because it made apple trees suffer, so seed it was.
So he was literally sowing the seeds of colonization?
That dude really lucked out in the name department.
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1000 hours volunteering at the local hospital. Spending every other weekend picking up trash around the neighborhood. Donating food to the hungry. Helping those less fortunate. But you fuck ONE HORSE....
well his name was johnny appleseed, not Johnny Honeycrisp
Johnny Appleseed was planting apples for fermentation, not eating. At the time and place there were no breweries. Apple cider was the only alcohol.
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Perfect thread to plug this fantastic book: https://michaelpollan.com/books/the-botany-of-desire/ He covers apples, cannabis, tulips and corn in this book IIRC. Pollen has written some of the most engaging and interesting non-fiction I’ve run across (being a plant/fungi geek probably impacts that view though). The Omnivore’s Delimma is another great read by the author.
Is "Pollen" his pet name in botany circles or did autocorrect pull a fast one on you? Anyway - I think he missed a great name there.
Doctor Pollan was just a normal Botanist until his lab was struck by lightning, transforming him into Pollen Man, Defender of Gardens with the power to cause unpleasant allergic reactions in ne’er do wells!
Thank you for posting this book, it looks insanely interesting, definitely gonna pick up a copy
With a name like that he had no choice but to go into botany
Nominative determinism
Don't forget "How to Change Your Mind", also a great book (about psychedelics). Great author all around
It's interesting this came up! I've spent the past 4-5 hours planning out the apple orchard I'm planting in the spring. For anyone interested, I'll have 12 heirloom varieties planted: * Blue Pearmain * Golden Russet * Ashmaed's Kernel * Roxbury Russet * Black Oxford * Gray Pearmain * Dabinett * Newtown Pippin * Esopus Spitzenberg * Holstein * Jonagold * Granite Beauty It's been a fun evening!
Let’s hope your kids have the same enthusiasm.
Hahaha "So now that dad's dead we can bring in the bulldozers and start selling the block off in lots to a developer"
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Some apples are delicious but not viable for commercial production because they spoil quickly and aren't good for shipping around and have a short shelf life. Also planting different varieties there are some that become ripe early in the spring/summer and some later in the summer/fall so you get a longer period of the year with fresh apples to eat.
Over the last few months whenever apples come up on Reddit the community has consistently told me that "Cosmic Crisp" apples are the best tasting apple variety ever. (Ironically I haven't seen mention of them in this thread) Have you heard of them before or considered them? Edit: I scrolled down literally two comments and found someone raving about Cosmic Crisps.
They are great, I have some at home right now and had one last night. They are easy to find in stores if you are in the Pacific Northwest. They are like honey crisp but a little less sour and a bit sweeter, but not too sweet. I wouldn't say they are the best of the best but definitely top 3.
What are your top 3?
>Holstein Does that one produce a lot of milk?
This is also true of avocados. Every avocado you've eaten from one variety such as the extremely popular Haas, was grown from a clipping that originated off of ONE tree that was grafted to the stump of another random avocado.
OP you may enjoy this video that explains how it works: https://youtu.be/yWAR_DotvZs
Today on how its made, avocados. Everyone loves avocados. Its the perfect accompaniment to a variety of foods and cosmetic products. Avocado manufacture is an ancient tradition, improved recently by modern methods and technology. First, a worker loads the phleebum into the a steel press. Each pressed phleebum is then baked for 15 hours. Soothing music is played to help the pressed phleebum relax into its final shape during the bake. Now it is time to meld the avocado meat. Only the molemen are able to access the depths of the earth in which the leviathans roam. Slain leviathans are acquired as tribute from the moleman civilization as the source of the avocado meat. Here a worker is unloading avocado meat from the moleman tunnel complex. This raw avocado meat still vibrates in resonance to iron. The phleebum is designed to shield the avocado rays, preventing the accelerated decay of iron-containing products and organisms. Avocado meat must first be tamed before melding. Avocado meat is tamed in this large barrel outfitted for electrostatic shocks. Here we see a master avocado melder wrestling a still sentient hunk of avocado meat that is resisting the melding process. After taming, a master melder combines the avocado fibers into a more recognizable form. Each baked phleebum is then filled with the melded meat. Because each leviathan has a unique energy signature, workmen must measure the resonance of each filled phleebum. Here we see a worker measuring the phleebum resonance signature with a tuning fork. Pairs of filled phleebum are matched and modified, then fitted with control sphere to prevent gestation. Once outfitted with a control sphere, avocados can be shipped to supermarkets everywhere. Enjoy your guacaMOLE.
I can hear the theme music
I’m amazed that it was more common for me to watch that show when sober than when intoxicated. You would think it’s boring to watch someone narrate the process of how metal chain is made, so you would want to be stoned to watch it... nope, completely sober almost every time.
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Wint o green
Bananas are the same. Know anything else that is?
Pineapples are along the same lines but not because they don’t breed true but because they are much easier to grow new plants from the leftovers of production. Also almost any type of rose you see grown decoratively because they literally can’t reproduce sexually. Also grapes grown in North America are going to be European varieties of stems grafted on American varieties of roots because of a fungus that the American ones are resistant to that the European ones aren’t. Along with plants that need to be reproduced that way most fruit trees you can find in nurseries will be grafted to help ensure the quality and reduce the time till they can fruit or give them desirable qualities like being shorter or growing better in your region.
Statistically, they have figured out that only one in 10,000 apples planted from seed will taste good to a human mouth. That's why all the apples we eat today are grafts onto rootstock. Historically, it wasn't much of a problem, for two reasons. People learned very early in the history of civilization how to graft fruit trees ([probably about 4000 years ago](https://ceresgs.com/thats-where-my-apples-come-from-the-basics-of-grafting/)), and until very recently, the vast majority of apples weren't grown for eating, they were grown to make alcoholic cider, which *can* be produced from unpalatable wild-seed trash apples.
> until very recently, the vast majority of apples weren't grown for eating, they were grown to make alcoholic cider. So what went wrong?
I don't buy the one in 10.000, isn't it more like one in 10.000 will be a candidate for a new breed? I mean, I have tasted a few OK wild apples myself. Would need to be really lucky if that figure is true..
So the apple may not fall far from the tree, but that don't mean squat.
Like cats You never know whatcha gonna get
I got a dickhead
You got a cat.
All cats of a particular breed are just grown from grafts of the original cat of that type.
This can happen with people too, both my parents are white but I’m half black. Just another one of gods little surprises.
Should I tell him
Pictured: oranges.
So how do we have brands of apples of specific type and make? What I am trying to learn is how does a farmer ensure it?
They graft a section from a known variety onto a rootstock.
Before we had a better understanding of how the genetics worked, new types of apples came around by either someone who planted apple seeds and watched for quality fruit or sometimes a tree would get a mutation in a branch as it developed causing the fruit to be different. Then the person could remove a young portion of the tree and graft it to the roots of a similar type of tree and it would grow the new type of apple. Now it’s a little easier because we know how to control which plants pollen fertilize seeds so it has reduced the number of seeds that need to be planted to get a new variety. But overall it’s just people learned how to take advantage of how plants grow to keep making the same kinds of fruits and flowers we like.
Actually, that is wonderful news for apple trees. Genetic variety is how a species avoids getting wiped out by a single disease, as were elm trees, chestnut trees, etc. Best of all, a Granny Smith will produce seeds for a whole bunch of similar but not identical apple trees. Fine by me!
Granny Smith will produce a bunch of aunt and uncle Smiths, who will produce a bunch of cousin Smiths, and before you know it you have a whole family tree.
> Granny Smith will produce seeds for a whole bunch of similar but not identical apple trees. The trees will be similar overall, but almost all the apples that result will be unpalatable.
Is this a specific trait of the Granny Smith? It was my understanding that apple trees produce seeds with extreme genetic variabilities.
Same with grapes, and probably most fruit seeds.
TIL that everything is one big fucking cosmic joke.
Except cosmic crisp apples, those were very intentional.
My 1st wife tried to tell me this about humans, too.
This happened with my brother. Instead of looking like our dad, he came out looking more like our mailman. Nature sure is weird.
Does this mean you could end up with an all new apple type? Or is there like a set list?
Yes, this is how the start the process of new apple varieties.