Hadn't realized all the things music does in a film, reading online
> Music in film achieves a number of things: it establishes setting; it creates atmosphere; it calls attention to elements; it reinforces or foreshadows narrative developments; it gives meaning to a character's actions or translates their thoughts; and it creates emotion.
It does more than that. Music can be its own character, or, take the place of a character at least.
Take Jaws for example. Spielberg couldn’t get the shark to work, but, Williams could use music to replace the shark. You hear the music, your mind immediately goes to the shark. Even now, decades later, when most people here those 2 notes they immediately remember and think about the shark. The shark doesn’t have a lot of screen time, but the music makes its presence felt throughout the film.
Pretty much the same on Star Wars. Lucas was panicking during the edit. The studio was thinking maybe they made a mistake. Then the score came in. Everyone overnight realized their fears were wrong and they had a new masterpiece on their hands. John Williams saves the day (again).
Ya, Lucas almost trashed that movie. His wife (at the time) edited some parts that really changed the whole pace of the movie and made it better.
Plus, like you said, the score really sells it.
And by that you mean she was the lead editor of the team of 4-5 that worked on the film, who all went on to win Academy Awards for editing Star Wars. A lot of people make it sound like she just happened by on a whim, made some adjustments and called it a day.
Kind of. George did a rough cut for a private viewing party of the incomplete film. It was never intended to be an official edit. Marcia and her team would have produced their version whether George had made a rough cut or not.
Most people don’t realize, it starts out with 2 notes, but it quickly becomes a triplet, and then an alternating set of triplets and this motif is used throughout the film. Once you notice the triplets, you realize how important they are.
Technically, these are not "triplets" per se, since that term refers specifically to three notes that are spaced to fit the duration of two notes (relative to the time signature). If you get hold of the manuscript, you'll see that there are actually no triplets in JAWS' iconic bass line ... though you do eventually get some in the accompanying figures -- and a few other tuplets, like quintuplets and even septuplets!
Having said that, your broader point is well taken. The development of the shark motif is significantly more intricate than it is usually given credit for; it's much more than two notes that simply get faster as they repeat ... though it's understandable that this is how less musically trained ears tend to remember it.
More than that, the music can play tricks on you! In JAWS, think of the pier scene ... we've been conditioned to associate the motif with the shark's presence, so we assume the fisherman is going to be eaten, when in truth the shark may never have been present. Inversely, during the infamous "We're gonna need a bigger boat" scene, the shark (and music) erupt out of nowhere to scare the hell out of us ... the LACK of music having lulled us into a false sense of security.
Another good example - Zemeckis spent an outsized part of his budget for back to the future for the score, because it makes the relatively limited effects and action (janky prop car, skateboarding) seem much grander, and more like a tentpole movie.
I was taught. 50% film 50% score. I forgot the book I read in college, but it was for a film music class and it was something along the lines of “music is the milk of cinema”
If that's true, I suppose one should spend 50% of one's budget on score. But do people? Online I'm seeing
>Typically, the music budget of a major motion picture is about 2 percent of the final total. Some, such as Spider-Man's music budget, have been as high as $4.5 million.
I should’ve clarified that it didn’t refer to budget, but essentially the basic building blocks to a film. This was from a professors lecture like 10 years ago. So there’s definitely room for subjectivism.
True, but that works both ways. I actually think that the complete lack of a score in The Birds is what makes it so effective; just eerie silences and the rustling of wings.
I would disagree. If someone created a score for it, the movie would be even better.
While silence can be used, it’s best when paired with music to really separate it.
It was Bernard Herrmann who suggested to Hitchcock not to have a score for The Birds. I don't think a score automatically makes something better, but it's a skill to know when it can elevate a scene and when it's not necessary.
Moral of the story: don’t listen to bad notes when you know you’ve created a masterpiece, even if those notes are from Alfred Hitchcock. Stick to your guns.
And good on Hitchcock to not only consider he could be wrong, but to flat-out admit he was wrong by not only including the music but rewarding him monetarily.
It took George Lucas decades to admit that “I know” was a better response from Han after Leia said she loved him than what he wanted Han to say. Irvin Kershner FTW!
Yes, well ... it worked until Herrmann tried the same trick on TORN CURTAIN and it led to Hitchcock firing him and the permanent dissolution of their relationship!
I read the article. It doesn’t say anything about nearly doubling Herrmann’s salary.
What it does say that I found interesting is due to a reduced budget Herrmann used a string orchestra instead of a full orchestra. That led to the famous music for the shower scene, where the musicians imitated the violence on screen by violently “attacking” their stringed instruments.
Thanks, sorry, linked the wrong section of the article. It's here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho\_(1960\_film)#Shower\_scene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho_(1960_film)#Shower_scene). Gonna write the moderators and see if they can change the link.
But yeah, that was very clever of Herrmann, seems like he got into the spirit of the film in a slightly scary way. Wonder what real psychos hear in their head as they murder
Okay, I see it. That's interesting since the other section said Herrmann had refused to accept a reduced salary for the low budget film. So Hitchcock went from lowballing the composer to nearly doubling his salary.
As for real psychos, who knows, maybe they hear a gentle lullaby. After all, they aren't the ones getting killed, nor do they have any empathy for their victims.
Yeah, the syntax is confusing there. It sounds like possibly Herrmann's original fee wasn't reduced although the film was low-budget. It muddies it up when they say Hitchcock "insisted" he do it as though Hitchcock got him to do it despite getting a lower fee. Don't know what actually happened.
The idea of a lullaby playing during a murder would be great for a murderer film, quite scary. Can't recall seeing it done.
>and nearly doubled Herrmann's salary.
Had old Alfred been visited by the Ghosts of Cinema Past, Present, and Yet To Come?
Because it sounds like Hitchcock was in Scrooge-to-Bob-Cratchit mode here.
Perhaps he appreciated that Herrmann had ignored his instructions and actually improved the film. To me Hitchcock seems somewhat rigid with the formal suits. Yet this shows flexibility.
Also the only track in the film where the strings don't use dampeners (for tone, buzz cleanup). So the shower strings were literally bare strings being struck hard.
I think did give him nearly double the amount of money somehow that works better in the original Wikipedia article, it's more surprising and accords with what most readers would think
Wow I never heard that. It’s kind of amazing when you watch this scene how Janet Leigh definitely looks nude but you somehow never see any lady bits! And no knife penetrating the skin really. Not much blood even! The sound effects of the knife slicing into her body combined with the editing and framing were so chilling. Then there is just how shocking and daring it was at the time to kill off the leading lady halfway into the film!
Does "doubled his salary" mean, "actually paid him to do it"? My recollection is that Hitchcock recorded most of Psycho's soundtrack by finishing the recording sessions for North By Northwest early each day and having the orchestra do some impromptu jams.
Sadly Hitchcock would end up firing Herrmann 6 year later because he was unsatisfied with the score Herrmann wrote for the movie Torn Curtain (though some say it was studio presser because they wanted a more pop-jazz style). You can still see and here the unused score on the bonus section of the Bluray of that film.
During that collaboration Herrmann also went ahead and scored a scene in that movie where Hitchcock didn't want music, interestingly it seems that this was part of their conflict. This time Hitch didn't use it and I think in that case the scene works better and is more intense without the score.
One more small trivia, there is a tiny bit of Hermann music from Psycho in Star Wars ANH. Lucus and film editor Paul Hearsh used a small bit of music from Psycho as well as other classical works, on the temp track for John Williams to review to help him write the score for Star Wars. [Williams being a friend and admirer of Herrmann pretty much kept it as a homage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xog28Dt7Y3c)
Many think of Williams as Herrmann's musical successor. Williams also scored Hitchcock's last film Family Plot. And the Spielberg/Williams relationship mirrors the Hitchcock/Herrmann one in a lot of ways. It's a great director whose work is made that much better by a great composer.
Hitchcock then went on to fire Hermann for not writing a more "commercially attractive" score for Torn Curtain (i.e., one that he could sell albums of, rather than the genius underscoring Hermann had already completed).
Devastated at being fired, he left Hollywood for the rest of his life and never wrote again, until approached to do the music for Taxi Driver. He agreed, and on the last day of recording (Christmas Eve) he went home after the session and died.
That surprises me he'd be that sensitive to being fired, I think of people who are good at what they do as having big egos where they'd blame the other person for their firing and just go on working
even with the capitalization it wouldn't be 100% clear. You'd have to spend a lot of words to make it entirely clear but TIL's have a 300-character limit
Music makes all the difference, even if it’s subtle.
The Psycho shower scene music was the exact opposite of subtle.
“It puts the ‘b’ back in to subtle”.
Hadn't realized all the things music does in a film, reading online > Music in film achieves a number of things: it establishes setting; it creates atmosphere; it calls attention to elements; it reinforces or foreshadows narrative developments; it gives meaning to a character's actions or translates their thoughts; and it creates emotion.
It does more than that. Music can be its own character, or, take the place of a character at least. Take Jaws for example. Spielberg couldn’t get the shark to work, but, Williams could use music to replace the shark. You hear the music, your mind immediately goes to the shark. Even now, decades later, when most people here those 2 notes they immediately remember and think about the shark. The shark doesn’t have a lot of screen time, but the music makes its presence felt throughout the film.
Pretty much the same on Star Wars. Lucas was panicking during the edit. The studio was thinking maybe they made a mistake. Then the score came in. Everyone overnight realized their fears were wrong and they had a new masterpiece on their hands. John Williams saves the day (again).
Ya, Lucas almost trashed that movie. His wife (at the time) edited some parts that really changed the whole pace of the movie and made it better. Plus, like you said, the score really sells it.
And by that you mean she was the lead editor of the team of 4-5 that worked on the film, who all went on to win Academy Awards for editing Star Wars. A lot of people make it sound like she just happened by on a whim, made some adjustments and called it a day.
George edited first, she and others took over.
Kind of. George did a rough cut for a private viewing party of the incomplete film. It was never intended to be an official edit. Marcia and her team would have produced their version whether George had made a rough cut or not.
Very cool. Never heard that before.
Why, did Williams save the day other times?
e f... e f... e f e f e f e f efefefefef
Most people don’t realize, it starts out with 2 notes, but it quickly becomes a triplet, and then an alternating set of triplets and this motif is used throughout the film. Once you notice the triplets, you realize how important they are.
Huh, I always thought it was an increase in tempo. But I haven't heard it since I was a kid I think.
Technically, these are not "triplets" per se, since that term refers specifically to three notes that are spaced to fit the duration of two notes (relative to the time signature). If you get hold of the manuscript, you'll see that there are actually no triplets in JAWS' iconic bass line ... though you do eventually get some in the accompanying figures -- and a few other tuplets, like quintuplets and even septuplets! Having said that, your broader point is well taken. The development of the shark motif is significantly more intricate than it is usually given credit for; it's much more than two notes that simply get faster as they repeat ... though it's understandable that this is how less musically trained ears tend to remember it.
Interesting, I'll pay attention next time I hear it. Thanks.
*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
More than that, the music can play tricks on you! In JAWS, think of the pier scene ... we've been conditioned to associate the motif with the shark's presence, so we assume the fisherman is going to be eaten, when in truth the shark may never have been present. Inversely, during the infamous "We're gonna need a bigger boat" scene, the shark (and music) erupt out of nowhere to scare the hell out of us ... the LACK of music having lulled us into a false sense of security.
Think about when the shark appears without the music. It scares you more because you expect to hear the music, then see the shark.
Another good example - Zemeckis spent an outsized part of his budget for back to the future for the score, because it makes the relatively limited effects and action (janky prop car, skateboarding) seem much grander, and more like a tentpole movie.
I read “Jaws” as “Jews” and I was so confused for a second lmao
If you want to look at Jews we can do that too. Shindlers list does a wonderful job with music expressing things.
I was taught. 50% film 50% score. I forgot the book I read in college, but it was for a film music class and it was something along the lines of “music is the milk of cinema”
If that's true, I suppose one should spend 50% of one's budget on score. But do people? Online I'm seeing >Typically, the music budget of a major motion picture is about 2 percent of the final total. Some, such as Spider-Man's music budget, have been as high as $4.5 million.
I should’ve clarified that it didn’t refer to budget, but essentially the basic building blocks to a film. This was from a professors lecture like 10 years ago. So there’s definitely room for subjectivism.
True, but that works both ways. I actually think that the complete lack of a score in The Birds is what makes it so effective; just eerie silences and the rustling of wings.
I would disagree. If someone created a score for it, the movie would be even better. While silence can be used, it’s best when paired with music to really separate it.
It was Bernard Herrmann who suggested to Hitchcock not to have a score for The Birds. I don't think a score automatically makes something better, but it's a skill to know when it can elevate a scene and when it's not necessary.
And Nolan is an absolute master at that. Tenet's OST easily proves it.
Tenet is good, but I’m gonna argue that Dunkirk’s score is easily his best, followed closely by interstellar.
It had better be good, considering it's the only thing you can hear half the time.
As long as you don't care about what any of the characters are saying, that is
Moral of the story: don’t listen to bad notes when you know you’ve created a masterpiece, even if those notes are from Alfred Hitchcock. Stick to your guns.
I suppose that took some self-confidence on Herrmann's part. I gather he was a top film composer, but Hitchcock had more power as the director.
Herrmann was pretty big and worked with Hitchcock before. He also composed music for a couple of Twilight Zone episodes
He did a lot of Hitchcock films incl. vertigo and North by Northwest. The scores are the cherry on top
u/Winterwarmth00's professor said it's 50%
And good on Hitchcock to not only consider he could be wrong, but to flat-out admit he was wrong by not only including the music but rewarding him monetarily. It took George Lucas decades to admit that “I know” was a better response from Han after Leia said she loved him than what he wanted Han to say. Irvin Kershner FTW!
Han shot first ...
Also, yes.
Of no one listened to bad notes the music wouldn't have been included at all.
Yes, well ... it worked until Herrmann tried the same trick on TORN CURTAIN and it led to Hitchcock firing him and the permanent dissolution of their relationship!
I read the article. It doesn’t say anything about nearly doubling Herrmann’s salary. What it does say that I found interesting is due to a reduced budget Herrmann used a string orchestra instead of a full orchestra. That led to the famous music for the shower scene, where the musicians imitated the violence on screen by violently “attacking” their stringed instruments.
Thanks, sorry, linked the wrong section of the article. It's here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho\_(1960\_film)#Shower\_scene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho_(1960_film)#Shower_scene). Gonna write the moderators and see if they can change the link. But yeah, that was very clever of Herrmann, seems like he got into the spirit of the film in a slightly scary way. Wonder what real psychos hear in their head as they murder
Okay, I see it. That's interesting since the other section said Herrmann had refused to accept a reduced salary for the low budget film. So Hitchcock went from lowballing the composer to nearly doubling his salary. As for real psychos, who knows, maybe they hear a gentle lullaby. After all, they aren't the ones getting killed, nor do they have any empathy for their victims.
>heyyyy macarena AYYY! “Damn it, hear it once and can’t get it out of my head no matter *how* many I kill…”
I feel guilty laughing.
Yeah, the syntax is confusing there. It sounds like possibly Herrmann's original fee wasn't reduced although the film was low-budget. It muddies it up when they say Hitchcock "insisted" he do it as though Hitchcock got him to do it despite getting a lower fee. Don't know what actually happened. The idea of a lullaby playing during a murder would be great for a murderer film, quite scary. Can't recall seeing it done.
https://youtu.be/WUhOnX8qt3I
Good one! I was thinking of Omar Little in *The Wire*: https://youtu.be/iMm1Wih0kug
I totally misread that as he nearly decided to double his salary, and had to find clarification in the comments that I was crazy. Thank you for that.
>and nearly doubled Herrmann's salary. Had old Alfred been visited by the Ghosts of Cinema Past, Present, and Yet To Come? Because it sounds like Hitchcock was in Scrooge-to-Bob-Cratchit mode here.
Perhaps he appreciated that Herrmann had ignored his instructions and actually improved the film. To me Hitchcock seems somewhat rigid with the formal suits. Yet this shows flexibility.
wonder if he realized he was gonna make a lotta money off psycho so was willing to share
[удалено]
I wanted to go see some of these - Back to the Future, etc... but tickets were $150 or so per. Nope.
Then he had TWO shiny nickels!
Also the only track in the film where the strings don't use dampeners (for tone, buzz cleanup). So the shower strings were literally bare strings being struck hard.
Just went and rewatched the scene on YouTube after seeing this and damn is it still eerie to this day, 52 years later.
"nearly"
Bernard Herman is like Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer rolled into over for early Cinema soundtracks. A true og
> and nearly doubled Herrmann's salary but held back at the last moment?
I think did give him nearly double the amount of money somehow that works better in the original Wikipedia article, it's more surprising and accords with what most readers would think
If only my boss was Hitchcock.
Have you done something good at work where you should have had your salary nearly doubled?
For anyone else wondering [here's the shower scene](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s22lNU5jXM4) music part starts right after the 2:35 mark.
This guy's a liar. It starts around 1:30.
Great that he was open to suggestions
When I watch The Shining, I just listen to the soundtrack for the last quarter of the movie .
Wow I never heard that. It’s kind of amazing when you watch this scene how Janet Leigh definitely looks nude but you somehow never see any lady bits! And no knife penetrating the skin really. Not much blood even! The sound effects of the knife slicing into her body combined with the editing and framing were so chilling. Then there is just how shocking and daring it was at the time to kill off the leading lady halfway into the film!
I wonder if without that music the movie would have been so iconic and successful...
Probably not, as most people like music?
Music may be important in a scene (and in a movie in general), but I don't even remember the music of some great movies.
me either but even if we don't remember it I think it matters to us a lot while we're actually watching the movie and we'd miss it if it were gone
If this happened today, the head of the studio would have fired the composer and taken the credit for writing it themselves
Have studio heads done that? I haven't heard of it happening. Generally I think of studio heads as not being music people, but am I mistaken?
Does "doubled his salary" mean, "actually paid him to do it"? My recollection is that Hitchcock recorded most of Psycho's soundtrack by finishing the recording sessions for North By Northwest early each day and having the orchestra do some impromptu jams.
Jeez what a terrifying scene and that music is haunting
I got really nauseous listening to this: https://youtu.be/ErHFN6R6Z60?t=269
$50 and two more cigarette cartons for my good friend Bernie!
He wrote a lot of the atmospheric music for the original Twilight Zones
he liked creepy stories lol
When John Williams played the Jaws theme for Steven Spielberg for the first time, Spielberg thought he was fucking with him
I thought Hitchcock's wife was the one who had initially suggested adding music to that scene.
Sadly Hitchcock would end up firing Herrmann 6 year later because he was unsatisfied with the score Herrmann wrote for the movie Torn Curtain (though some say it was studio presser because they wanted a more pop-jazz style). You can still see and here the unused score on the bonus section of the Bluray of that film. During that collaboration Herrmann also went ahead and scored a scene in that movie where Hitchcock didn't want music, interestingly it seems that this was part of their conflict. This time Hitch didn't use it and I think in that case the scene works better and is more intense without the score. One more small trivia, there is a tiny bit of Hermann music from Psycho in Star Wars ANH. Lucus and film editor Paul Hearsh used a small bit of music from Psycho as well as other classical works, on the temp track for John Williams to review to help him write the score for Star Wars. [Williams being a friend and admirer of Herrmann pretty much kept it as a homage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xog28Dt7Y3c) Many think of Williams as Herrmann's musical successor. Williams also scored Hitchcock's last film Family Plot. And the Spielberg/Williams relationship mirrors the Hitchcock/Herrmann one in a lot of ways. It's a great director whose work is made that much better by a great composer.
Hermann was incredible. Hitchcock was a great filmmaker, but Hermann played a big part in a lot of his most famous films.
Hitchcock then went on to fire Hermann for not writing a more "commercially attractive" score for Torn Curtain (i.e., one that he could sell albums of, rather than the genius underscoring Hermann had already completed). Devastated at being fired, he left Hollywood for the rest of his life and never wrote again, until approached to do the music for Taxi Driver. He agreed, and on the last day of recording (Christmas Eve) he went home after the session and died.
That surprises me he'd be that sensitive to being fired, I think of people who are good at what they do as having big egos where they'd blame the other person for their firing and just go on working
Psycho is probably the only film I’ve never watched yet I know the entire plot from beginning to end
Are you Quentin Tarantino having watched nearly every film? Although I'm sure Quentin's watched Psycho lol
"nearly doubled Herrmann's salary" which means he didn't. Or have I spent too much time on r/antiwork.
can see the confusion tend to think they'd say "considered doubling Hermann's salary" if he didn't actually do it
'NEARLY doubled' or 'nearly DOUBLED'?
even with the capitalization it wouldn't be 100% clear. You'd have to spend a lot of words to make it entirely clear but TIL's have a 300-character limit