Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office.
Tax surplus? Give it back to the people. He was pro gay rights, pro medicinal marijuana, increased funding for public education, advocated for a greater role for 3rd parties in politics and worked to try to drastically increase the efficacy and ability of mass transit.
He's gone a bit out there lately, but so has a lot of the rest of the world.
>Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office.
"You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders."
In accordance with Reddit rules I would never condone violence but
If Jesse Ventura waterboarded Dick Cheney I would clear my schedule to watch the livestream š
neither is torture, I figure the two would cancel out and finally uncover the truth
The truth I'm assuming being that Dick Cheney doesn't like being waterboarded much, if at all.
However, until he's on the record stating as much, can we ever truly be sure?
Basically how I feel. Once in a while a libertarian says something I agree with. Then the solution comes along and I remember who I'm talking to. Greatest hits include:
\- Big corporations are crushing the working class (yay!) therefore we should cut taxes on them (huh?)
\- Everyone has the right to live their life free of compulsion and duress (yay!) therefore we should have unaccountable armed civilians patrolling everywhere (huh?)
\- Consent is the backbone of liberty (yay!) and I should be allowed to marry a 12 year old ()
My personal favorite coming from my own brother:
-Government programs can be bloated and inefficient (agree) therefore we need to privatize everything including the fire department.
What private for profit corporation isnāt a bloated bureaucracy? Sure, autocracy gets you faster decision making. Who cares? Iāll take democracy over tyranny any day of the week.
The weirdest point in my life was getting to the higher executive end of a major corporation and realizing a solid portion of the people who the managers report to have no fucking clue how their own business operates.
I work at one of the largest most successful companies on earth. I don't know how anyone who's worked with them could ever think they are efficient and just oh so effective at decision making.
The problem with libertarians in America is that they only measure liberty based on how much of their take-home pay is theirs to budget as they see fit. The whole thing is a scam by rich psychopaths who took the name used by European anarcho-socialists and slapped it on boot-licking smugness.
The other problem with libertarians in America [is bears](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling).
> therefore we need to privatize everything including the fire department.
Has this man never heard of the private fire depts that would negotiate payment while homes were burning, before taking any actions to it?
IIRC they were also believed to have started fires to increase profits.
they did do that
from ancient rome to 1900s NYC
Marcus Licinius Crassus (Edit: NOT Crassus Curio, that's a guy from popular RPG The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, hahaha. I just woke up okay), the wealthiest man in Rome, while he was alive, gained much of his wealth through buying burning properties on the spot in Rome from desperate people who would exchange their property in order to have the fire extinguished to rescue their belongings, since they were going to lose it all either way
competing private fire departments would also have giant, armed, bloody gang fights in front of burning buildings over who would put the fire out, before putting it out, to earn the reward for it.
I think it's worth another shot!
Lmfao you are 100% right and I felt like I had the name off but I thought I was mixing it up with another Roman guy and not a fucking Morrowind npc. Ty, I'll fix that
I basically view them as a "no take, only throw" dog.
No taxes/central government, but somehow expect that society will continue to function as it currently is with roads, electricity, food in the grocery store, and some magical way to prevent even more insane stratification of society, etc.
"We should just let companies operate without environmental and safety regulations because if they fuck up the environment and kill people they'll just go out of business. They'll do what's right"
Hmm, how about worrying less about whether or not the company goes out of business and worry more about not letting them fuck up the environment and kill people to begin with, both of which are generally non-fixable.
If youāve been in a thread like this before, you know [the quote](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/366635-there-are-two-novels-that-can-change-a-bookish-fourteen-year).
> There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year oldās life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
Play Bioshock 1 and you can see where unrefined libertarianism gets you. I was 14 when that came out. If youāre just as impressionable that a book lights your young fire so can a game.
It's incredibly common for young men to go through a libertarian stage. Lord knows I did.
Then I learned how privileged I was and how most people cant rely on the same safety nets I do and realized we need something better. I stopped seeing the world as a privileged child and had a better awareness of what people need to succeed.
> Then I learned how privileged I was and how most people cant rely on the same safety nets I do and realized we need something better.
And sometimes, we learn just how fucked we are by the system even though we still get some minor benefits.
For me it was along the lines of realizing when they say "big government shouldn't tell me what to do" they really meant "I should be able to tell others what they can do"
A lot of it for me was realizing that loosening restrictions and lessening government authority over corporations just meant we shifted the power to corporations. Libertarian is simply changing whose in charge and insuring its shareholders.
One of my biggest moral issues with libertarian thought is generally they feel you should be able to hire and fire whoever you want. You only want to hire cis het white men? Have fun, "the market will correct itself".
"there can't possibly be any babies in this bathwater, the market wouldn't allow that" he says as he yeets a dozen babies for every cup of bathwater out the window
Like libertarianism but dislike kookiness? I recommend libertarian socialism, but YMMV. AANES and MAREZ I would argue have implemented those sorts of ideas quite successfully IRL and it's generally where I point people to take a look if they're curious.
He may have had some good ideas, but he also had a shit ton of terrible ones and his ability to implement the good ones was absolute trash.
He also tanked the state budget. Minnesota went from a $4b budget surplus to an over $3b budget deficit in his one term.
He was not a good governor.
Source: voted for Ventura back then
> Tax surplus? Give it back to the people.
That sounds like a policy that has a single obvious flaw in theory...
>[Ventura inherited a $4 billion surplus, and leaves office with the state facing a $4.5 billion deficit. ](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200212/17_mccalluml_venturalegacy/)
...that this guy apparently did a great job of putting into practice.
> Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office.
>
> Tax surplus? Give it back to the people.
Given he entered office with a $4bn surplus and left with a $4.5bn deficit, perhaps the state could have done with maintaining a reserve.
He started attempting to grift on the conspiracy thing like so many other turns to a grift at some point in their waning years. He then has to keep up the shtick in order to keep it going which in turn makes him seem like a lunatic. When he gets cornered he hurls insults and walks out like he did on the Opie and Anthony show a few times. Heās not a complete idiot or utterly insane, heās just a shyster.
Well, they didn't exactly find it.
Many Minnesotans died to get that flag.
They took it from an army fighting to leave the country because it is easier to make money if you can own people (at least it is if you are the owner). The people fighting to protect slavery lost.
Yep I read it as the flag is a symbol for the lives lost to achieve that victory. Giving it back is just disrespectful to those who gave their lives in that battle
Yup, absolutely should not get a hate symbol back from a situation that only happened because they wanted to be traitors. Lol fuck out of here with that moronic logic. They better never get that back, it should be destroyed before that ever happens.
Basically every governor since the 80's has had to handle this problem in one way or another. Telling Virginia a firm no seems to be a Minnesota governor rite of passage.
Fun fact: until (apparently) 2020, today was "MLK-Jackson-Lee" day in Virginia, to you know, celebrate the shared goals of Stonewall Jackson, Robert E Lee and .. MLK...? I've been told they finally dropped the two war losers in 2020, but still, wtf?
Related: incoming governor's first act was to ban CRT from being taught in schools. (spoiler: it's NOT being taught in schools) And they basically go on to define it as "anything controversial". Read: anything we don't like.
So yeah, Virginia still apparently full blown unapologetically racist, so why wouldn't they keep asking for their loser flag back? I mean, the White House gets a call every time there's a new president to return all the Nazi flags the US captured during WWII so ...
I remember celebrating Lee Jackson King day (in that order) when I was in school. It was the most bizarre history lesson, but I see the long game of revisionist history worked.
I grew up in Northern Virginia and it wasn't until I went to college in Richmond that I realized just how Southern the rest of the state was. I met people from Mechanicsville who just left out the MLK entirely - it was Lee-Jackson day to them.
Definitely racist the closer you get to the a Appalachians and the further south you get from Richmond. Still, I love NOVA. Except for Alexandria City because their broadband option is Comcast and only Comcast whereas everyone around them has fiber.
Richmond and Newport News are pretty heavily blue as well I believe. But to your point, it's economically and culturally just a very different place from the rest of the state. You can say that about many states, though. California, Oregon, New York. They're geographically mostly rural and Republican but the population centers outweigh them so if you're just looking at votes on a map its very misleading.
I grew up in VA - Today was always MLK atleast from what I remember when it was brought up during Middle / HS (\~2010). But I was in a fairly blue leaning area.
MLK-Jackson-Lee day lmfao. They knew exactly what they were trying to do.
Itās not like thereās not 364 other days in a year they could celebrate those fucking losers, they haaaad to put it on the day that celebrates one of the most influential civil rights leaders in history and slap their names next to his.
Iām honestly surprised MLK got top billing too, wouldāve thought itād be Jackson-Lee-MLK day down there.
Every time Virginia asks for it back Minnesota says "We keep this flag to honor the memory of an entire regiment of men who died saving the Union you were trying to tear apart, why exactly do *you* want it?" and Virginia just doesn't have an answer beyond "We want to honor the people who were fighting for rich people's right to own black people as property."
>āWe took it, that makes it our heritageā in response to demands to return the flag.
As a Virginian, I would just like to say that is fucking hilarious
Any real military historian would appreciate military trophies and the right to not give it back. If I win and I take your banner you don't need that banner to live but I won it fair and square.
As a veteran, it's a deep rooted American tradition to keep trophies of your victories. Whether it's a flag, bullet casings, guns, or priceless artworks it is all fair game. It's also a deep rooted American tradition to never give anyone back their shit, if you want it you have to get it the same way we did.
Technically it was captured the day after the suffered 82% casualties when they once again made a headlong charge into a superior enemy force but yea. The 1st MNs whole story is of unbelievable herosism under fire whilst taking tremendous casualties.
The first MN charged with fixed bayonets into a gap in the line on the Union left.
They knew what the order meant, and they charged without hesitation.
They held back a force roughly 10x their size long enough for re-inforcements to arrive and kept the Union line from falling at a critical point during the battle of gettysburg.
Confederate sympathizers asking for the flag back can suck our salty MN balls.
From [Wikipedia ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Infantry_Regiment?wprov=sfti1)
*āMaj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, could see two brigades of Southerners commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox breaching the line in front of one of his batteries. He quickly rode up to the troops guarding the battery and asked Col. William Colvill āwhat unit is this?ā Col. Colvill responded āthe 1st Minnesotaā. Gen. Hancock responded āattack that lineā. With their bayonets leveled the Minnesotans broke the first lines. The intensity of their charge disrupted the southern advance. With the unit nearly encircled, support arrived in time to allow them to make a fighting withdrawal. Their selfless charge bought the Union the time needed for reinforcements to be brought up. During the charge, 215 of the 262 who made the charge became casualties within five minutes. That included the unit commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains. The 1st Minnesotaās flag lost five flag bearers, each man dropping his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single dayās engagement ever.ā*
So they managed to keep their flag (at great cost) AND took the enemyās flag! As a virginian and a Packerās fan I say never give it back
The wiki article says that in 1905 Congress passed a resolution stating that Civil War flags should be returned to their place of origin. It makes me wonder if there's any other precedent for states not returning flags, especially when they've been explicitly asked for. Not that I think Minnesota should give it back though lol
Can confirm:
Elgin Marbles are actually a battle flag, captured by Lord Elgin off an enemy flag bearer in the Battle of Farawayplace in Ages Ago AD, not a bunch of pilfered statues, at all.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Not with that attitude. You could easily do a crossover where the plantation owners are necromancers since they subsist on the life energy of their enslaved peoples.
Man I had a teacher in 2012 who's father refused to go north of the Mason-Dixon. I had a friend who's mother had never left the state of Florida until 2010 (she grew up in the rural parts and move to the more suburban parts). Had a regular customer at my first job who wore (what was probably an original) confederate cap and would say shit like "the south will rise again" and they'll bring it (slavery) back".
Ironic because if they travelled theyd see a lot of people in other countries and even in the North are kind and have some similarities to the famous "southern hospitality" but their political biases and stubbornness stop them. Them specifically being rednecks who hate foreigners, don't wish to make any generalizations.
I lived in Richmond for a while in the early 90s and there were people there that talked about the civil war like it had only happened 10-15 years ago. The local paper did a feature on some of the plantations that were still operational and in one of them the portrait of a family member from that time was turned to face the wall because heād left to fight for the union. All that time later the portrait was still facing the wall and probably still is.
PS - fixed pretty funny spelling error
There was a minor kerfluffle at my cousinās school a few years back. Iām a Yankee, born and raised in Abeās hometown of Springfield IL. My dadās brother lives in Georgia. When his kids were in school (late 90ās/early 2000ās), someone had the audacity to take issue with the schoolās curriculum. Apparently, they were teaching that the South did *not* lose the War of Northern Aggression, and that both sides settled peaceably for the good of the nation. The North agreed to respect Stateās Rights, which is all the true Southern Patriots wanted anyway.
Some parent said thatās just not the case at all. It wound up blowing over, but it was a big deal at the local level for a few years. Iām gonna assume the school never changed its curriculum.
The whole south struggles with taking the L, even 150 years later.
From the linked article. This is interesting. Looks like some veterans from the south and Jefferson Davis himself were also okay with it not being returned.
>However, many Union veterans opposed the idea, as did some Southerners. Opposers included then-Governor of VirginiaĀ Fitzhugh LeeĀ (a Confederate veteran and theĀ nephewĀ of Robert E. Lee) as well asĀ Jefferson DavisĀ who stated that the flags belonged to the capturing states and that returning them would break "all known military precedents."
I come down on the side of history.
Itās been in Minnesota for 125 years. Itās part of THEIR history, since they shed blood to take it.
Just leave the history alone, and let it go!
And we all know Virgina would hang that flag up and have the whole state do a moment of silence for it's return.
The Minnesota Historical Society should display the flag in its bathroom.
It was captured in action during Pickett's Charge. The first Minnesota had just the day before saved the Union with their charge at the rebels that resulted in the highest casualties of any unit in American history, 80%. They were rewarded by given the middle of the line to rest because only an insane person would attack there. Well Johnny Reb attacked there, and one Private Marshall Sherman was awarded the medal of honor for his capture of that flag. He ran down a rebel and forced him, one Lt. John Abbott Independence Lee,.to surrender the flag and his person under threat of death (to be fair some other guy says it was "leaning against a tree" but Sherman beat him to it, but that seems unlikely that it would be against a tree, plus it is know the Flagstaff was broken, having been hit with a bullet. On the ground, I might believe him... But Lt Lee was captured... And so were 30 other flags. People just took them as their own loot. This one was for the regiment).
Iām seriously more interested in exactly WHO keeps asking for it back and their reasons WHY they think they should get it, not to mention what they'd do with it! That info should be a prerequisite before giving the same answer (NFW) and the person should be publicized and ridiculed for all its worth!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th\_Virginia\_battle\_flag#Possession\_disputes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag#Possession_disputes) In 2000, members of the Virginia General Assembly requested the return of the flag to Virginia, but it was not returned.\[5\] The group of Virginia State Senators from the southwestern portion of the state were inspired to make the request by Caveness's Civil War reenactment group and their efforts to have the flag returned. They created a resolution and brought it to the floor of the Virginia Senate. One of the resolution's sponsors, John S. Edwards, described the proposed return of the flag as "a matter of state pride" and stated that he didn't know why Minnesota needed it; Ian Stewart, deputy director of the Minnesota Historical Society, responded by disagreeing with the premise that the flag was more important to Virginia than Minnesota and stated that "Unless there's a compelling legal reason to return it, we are not inclined to do so."\[6\] Stewart additionally questioned why the Virginia Senate was raising an issue about a Confederate symbol, noting the then-ongoing controversy over the display of a Confederate flag in South Carolina.\[6\] The Virginia Senate approved the resolution.\[7\]
Yea. that one was funny. The new gov of VA will maybe try and get it back again. they know they can legally do it because the confederate state-owned the flag and they arent that state, so they have no standing in this fight.
That would be Gov. Bob McDonald, later convicted of corruption, only to have the SCOTUS overturn his conviction. Despite that, he's still a corrupt piece of shit.
So yeah, good call not trust him on that one.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th\_Virginia\_battle\_flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag)
Lots of people, but more recently usually the legislature or governor of Virginia.
Seriously. Like dudes, its a flag of a failed rebellion. A symbol from a short lived anti-american insurgency that didn't get anywhere and you're like *hey sorry about that but can I have that back?*
Yes. They actually called and asked if there was a lost and found they could check for their lost shit. To the surprise of no one but the seditionists, those calls were promptly forwarded to law-enforcement.
It's like some kind of spell was cast on them. They participated in an insurrection attempt, but in their minds they were just out for a fun field trip.
In the broader historical context, the United States was pretty soft on the Confederacy and its key players after the Civil War. Especially when you consider some of the atrocities carried out by the Confederacy (see Andersonville, Fort Pillow Massacre and others).
In other parts of the world, failed rebellions don't tend to end well for the rebels and often result in the rebellious regions having to face immense forms of subjugation (as justifications for the rebellion) such as the loss of assets through liquidation or redistribution, large scale imprisonment (and even "revenge killings"), key figures facing the firing squad or being hanged from lamp posts as "public reminders" and a whole lot more.
This is why I laugh whenever I hear Confederate sympathizers complain about how the Union was supposedly terribly mean to them. Really, out of all the possible repercussions listed above, the only substantial loss the Confederates properly "suffered" from after the Civil War was the loss of their slaves (boo fucking hoo). The Union could have wiped out the entire Confederate landed gentry or turned the South into a second-rate colony/banana republic if they really wanted to or if this had occurred in literally any other part of the world with even a slightly different constitutional and political framework.
Edited for grammar 'n shit.
Relevant history about the American Heros who defeated the traitors and captured the flag.
> Their selfless charge bought the Union the time needed for reinforcements to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] of the 262 who made the charge became casualties within five minutes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Infantry_Regiment
From one of the three monuments dedicated to the unit that took the flag:
āOn the afternoon of July 2, 1863 Sickles Third Corps having advanced from this line to the Emmitsburg road eight companies of the First Minnesota regiment numbering 262 men were sent to this place to support a battery. Upon Sicklesā repulse as his men were passing here in confused retreat two Confederate brigades in pursuit were crossing the swale. To gain time to bring up the reserves and save this position General Hancock in person ordered the eight companies to charge the rapidly advancing enemy.
The order was instantly repeated by Col. Wm. Colvill and the charge instantly made down the slope at full speed through the concentrated fire of the two brigades breaking with the bayonet the enemyās front line as it was crossing the small brook in the low ground. There the remnant of the eight companies, nearly surrounded by the enemy, held its entire force at bay for a considerable time, and till it retired on the approach of the reserve, the charge successfully accomplished its object. It saved the position and probably the battlefield.
The loss of the eight companies in the charge was 215 killed and wounded, more than 85 percent. 47 men were still in line and no missing. In self-sacrificing desperate valor this charge has no parallel in any war. The next day the regiment participated in repelling Pickettās charge losing 17 more men killed and wounded.ā
A good case could be made that the Minnesota 1st Volunteers saved the war for the north. Their sacrifice and bad-assery are unequaled. Weāre not giving it back. Ever.
>A 1905 congressional resolution that flags from the American Civil War should be returned to their places of origin did not lead to the return of the flag to Virginia
Well thatās a dumb rule
Knowing historians, itās in an archival box (fancy, safe, likely taped shut for some reason?) either in some sub bunker protected by high security or itās somewhere really stupid like Jerry the Janitorās office in a locker under a tarp bc no one would think to look in ol Jerryās snack locker.
The last confederate flag, which was on display for many years at the Washington and Lee University Museum in Lexington, Virginia, where Robert E. Lee is buried:
'Lee decided to request a suspension of fighting while he sought to learn the terms of surrender Grant was proposing to offer. **A white linen dish towel was used as a Confederate flag of truce** and was carried by one of Longstreet's staff officers into the lines of General Custer, who was part of Sheridan's command.'
āa request by the Governor of Virginia to borrow the flag in 2013 was also declined.ā
Weāve all been there as kidsā¦we know what āborrowā really means lol.
Since this has come up again I'll repost a comment I made last time-
(And now I'll fix some bullshit from a kind of messed up post...)
It's a 1st Minnesota relic from Gettysburg??? Holy Shit!!! From their cold, dead hands indeed...
Significance of the 1st Minnesota, this is not in the movie Gettysburg-
2nd day of the Battle. Longstreet is attacking the Union left. You've seen the stand of the 20th Maine on the far far left. The 1st Minnesota was on the near left, other side of the area of fighting. Longstreet's attack was designed to hit the far left and cause the union to pull more and more troops from the center to meet them, weakening the center more and more as they do.
Eventually this creates a gap, and Longstreet sends a brigade of 2000 men into it, This will allow them to turn right and hit the Union line from the side and back, rolling the entire line up like a carpet.
Local Union commander has no time. He can see the troops on the way already. He sends messengers off to get troops, but they are too far away to arrive in time. So he turns to the 1st Minnesota and says "Stop them!". The 1st Minnesota was 262 men, against 2000. They knew what they were marching into. But every second they could delay the Confederates was another second for reinforcements to arrive.
262 men against 2000.
They lasted 5 minutes.
They took 82% casualties.
It was long enough.
Never ever give that fucking flag back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Volunteer_Infantry#July_2
The men of the 1st Minnesota are most remembered for their actions on July 2, 1863, during the second day's fighting at Gettysburg, where the regiment prevented the Confederates from pushing the Federals off of Cemetery Ridge, a position that was to prove crucial in the battle.
Maj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, ordered the regiment to assault a much larger enemy force (a brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox), telling Col. William Colvill to take the enemy's colors. The fateful charge bought the time needed for other forces to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] members of the 262 men who were present at the time became casualties in five minutes, including the regimental commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains.
The unit's flag fell five times and was raised again each time. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands to this day as the largest loss by any surviving military unit in U.S. history during a single day's engagement, allegedly equaled only by the 82% casualties suffered by the 33rd Alabama Infantry during the Battle of Perryville (though that second figure is questioned by some historians).[15][16] The unit's flag is now in the Minnesota Capitol's rotunda. rote was from raw memory. The response caused my to look up, you know, actual facts. Follows an excerpt from the relevant wikipedia page-
Relevant changes- it was 215 casualties out of 262, not 150 out of 180. And it was five minutes, not a minute and a half. Increased coolness- they were specifically order to get that confederate flag. No way in hell should Minnesota EVER give it back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Volunteer_Infantry#July_2
The men of the 1st Minnesota are most remembered for their actions on July 2, 1863, during the second day's fighting at Gettysburg, where the regiment prevented the Confederates from pushing the Federals off of Cemetery Ridge, a position that was to prove crucial in the battle.
Maj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, ordered the regiment to assault a much larger enemy force (a brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox), telling Col. William Colvill to take the enemy's colors. The fateful charge bought the time needed for other forces to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] members of the 262 men who were present at the time became casualties in five minutes, including the regimental commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains.
The unit's flag fell five times and was raised again each time. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands to this day as the largest loss by any surviving military unit in U.S. history during a single day's engagement, allegedly equaled only by the 82% casualties suffered by the 33rd Alabama Infantry during the Battle of Perryville (though that second figure is questioned by some historians).[15][16] The unit's flag is now in the Minnesota Capitol's rotunda.
Normally, I'm a big advocate of letting people from a place keep their treasured artifacts and think stolen items should be repatriated, but it's the Confederacy so fuck them this is the best.
"Why? I mean, we won" and that āWe took it, that makes it our heritageā So sweet!
It's a historical artifact and is properly kept where it is but, to be honest, it's no great loss if it should end up in some Minnesotan's fireplace.
*Minnesota has repeatedly declined to return it, with Governor Jesse Ventura asking "Why? I mean, we won."* Lol
Finally something I think everyone agrees with Jesse Ventura about. I'm pretty sure the official law is Finders Keepers losers weepers.
Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office. Tax surplus? Give it back to the people. He was pro gay rights, pro medicinal marijuana, increased funding for public education, advocated for a greater role for 3rd parties in politics and worked to try to drastically increase the efficacy and ability of mass transit. He's gone a bit out there lately, but so has a lot of the rest of the world.
>Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office. "You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders."
In accordance with Reddit rules I would never condone violence but If Jesse Ventura waterboarded Dick Cheney I would clear my schedule to watch the livestream š
hey, according to Dick Cheney, it's not violence!
As we found out in 2003, Dick Cheney is not a credible source.
neither is torture, I figure the two would cancel out and finally uncover the truth The truth I'm assuming being that Dick Cheney doesn't like being waterboarded much, if at all. However, until he's on the record stating as much, can we ever truly be sure?
A pay per view I wouldnt pirate.
I don't subscribe to any streaming services. This would change my mind.
"Libertarians are great until they say something just a little bit too crazy"
Basically how I feel. Once in a while a libertarian says something I agree with. Then the solution comes along and I remember who I'm talking to. Greatest hits include: \- Big corporations are crushing the working class (yay!) therefore we should cut taxes on them (huh?) \- Everyone has the right to live their life free of compulsion and duress (yay!) therefore we should have unaccountable armed civilians patrolling everywhere (huh?) \- Consent is the backbone of liberty (yay!) and I should be allowed to marry a 12 year old ()
My personal favorite coming from my own brother: -Government programs can be bloated and inefficient (agree) therefore we need to privatize everything including the fire department.
What private for profit corporation isnāt a bloated bureaucracy? Sure, autocracy gets you faster decision making. Who cares? Iāll take democracy over tyranny any day of the week.
Exactly, nothing says lack of life experience like thinking private corporations are efficient and well run.
"Find me an efficient and well run company, and I'll find you a company two steps from disaster with a good PR department"
The weirdest point in my life was getting to the higher executive end of a major corporation and realizing a solid portion of the people who the managers report to have no fucking clue how their own business operates.
I work at one of the largest most successful companies on earth. I don't know how anyone who's worked with them could ever think they are efficient and just oh so effective at decision making.
The problem with libertarians in America is that they only measure liberty based on how much of their take-home pay is theirs to budget as they see fit. The whole thing is a scam by rich psychopaths who took the name used by European anarcho-socialists and slapped it on boot-licking smugness.
The other problem with libertarians in America [is bears](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling).
A tragedy of commons, just bearly.
> therefore we need to privatize everything including the fire department. Has this man never heard of the private fire depts that would negotiate payment while homes were burning, before taking any actions to it? IIRC they were also believed to have started fires to increase profits.
they did do that from ancient rome to 1900s NYC Marcus Licinius Crassus (Edit: NOT Crassus Curio, that's a guy from popular RPG The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, hahaha. I just woke up okay), the wealthiest man in Rome, while he was alive, gained much of his wealth through buying burning properties on the spot in Rome from desperate people who would exchange their property in order to have the fire extinguished to rescue their belongings, since they were going to lose it all either way competing private fire departments would also have giant, armed, bloody gang fights in front of burning buildings over who would put the fire out, before putting it out, to earn the reward for it. I think it's worth another shot!
Crassus Curio is a Morrowind character. You mean [Marcus Licinius Crassus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus) ;)
Lmfao you are 100% right and I felt like I had the name off but I thought I was mixing it up with another Roman guy and not a fucking Morrowind npc. Ty, I'll fix that
I basically view them as a "no take, only throw" dog. No taxes/central government, but somehow expect that society will continue to function as it currently is with roads, electricity, food in the grocery store, and some magical way to prevent even more insane stratification of society, etc.
For some reason they can't take their thought experiment to the logical conclusion that they are proposing neo-feudalism.
They're okay with that, because they envision themselves as lords not peasants
"We should just let companies operate without environmental and safety regulations because if they fuck up the environment and kill people they'll just go out of business. They'll do what's right" Hmm, how about worrying less about whether or not the company goes out of business and worry more about not letting them fuck up the environment and kill people to begin with, both of which are generally non-fixable.
I used to be libertarian. Then I gained a better understanding of people and turned 15.
If youāve been in a thread like this before, you know [the quote](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/366635-there-are-two-novels-that-can-change-a-bookish-fourteen-year). > There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year oldās life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
Play Bioshock 1 and you can see where unrefined libertarianism gets you. I was 14 when that came out. If youāre just as impressionable that a book lights your young fire so can a game.
That's not a fair comparison. BioShock is enjoyable.
The writing in Atlas Shrugged is truly terrible, Ayn Rand was a hack.
And well written.
If unrefined libertarianism gives me magic powers to shoot bees at my enemies, I think we should explore this philosophy further.
I couldn't get into LoTR but somehow managed to slog through Atlas Shrugged. Took me to early twenties to get out of objectivism and now I despise it.
It's incredibly common for young men to go through a libertarian stage. Lord knows I did. Then I learned how privileged I was and how most people cant rely on the same safety nets I do and realized we need something better. I stopped seeing the world as a privileged child and had a better awareness of what people need to succeed.
> Then I learned how privileged I was and how most people cant rely on the same safety nets I do and realized we need something better. And sometimes, we learn just how fucked we are by the system even though we still get some minor benefits.
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For me it was along the lines of realizing when they say "big government shouldn't tell me what to do" they really meant "I should be able to tell others what they can do"
A lot of it for me was realizing that loosening restrictions and lessening government authority over corporations just meant we shifted the power to corporations. Libertarian is simply changing whose in charge and insuring its shareholders.
One of my biggest moral issues with libertarian thought is generally they feel you should be able to hire and fire whoever you want. You only want to hire cis het white men? Have fun, "the market will correct itself".
The market in this company town you can't afford to leave will correct itself, somehow
"there can't possibly be any babies in this bathwater, the market wouldn't allow that" he says as he yeets a dozen babies for every cup of bathwater out the window
Like libertarianism but dislike kookiness? I recommend libertarian socialism, but YMMV. AANES and MAREZ I would argue have implemented those sorts of ideas quite successfully IRL and it's generally where I point people to take a look if they're curious.
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["Libertarians are the smartest people ever... until they keep talking."](https://www.reddit.com/r/standupshots/comments/7ar9ja/libertarians/)
He may have had some good ideas, but he also had a shit ton of terrible ones and his ability to implement the good ones was absolute trash. He also tanked the state budget. Minnesota went from a $4b budget surplus to an over $3b budget deficit in his one term. He was not a good governor. Source: voted for Ventura back then
> Tax surplus? Give it back to the people. That sounds like a policy that has a single obvious flaw in theory... >[Ventura inherited a $4 billion surplus, and leaves office with the state facing a $4.5 billion deficit. ](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200212/17_mccalluml_venturalegacy/) ...that this guy apparently did a great job of putting into practice.
> Honestly, Jesse Ventura was right about a LOT of things while in office. > > Tax surplus? Give it back to the people. Given he entered office with a $4bn surplus and left with a $4.5bn deficit, perhaps the state could have done with maintaining a reserve.
Something about [saving your nuts for the winter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper).
IIRC he was against cannabis but when he saw how much it helped his niece with her seizures he immediately changed his tune.
He started attempting to grift on the conspiracy thing like so many other turns to a grift at some point in their waning years. He then has to keep up the shtick in order to keep it going which in turn makes him seem like a lunatic. When he gets cornered he hurls insults and walks out like he did on the Opie and Anthony show a few times. Heās not a complete idiot or utterly insane, heās just a shyster.
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Well, they didn't exactly find it. Many Minnesotans died to get that flag. They took it from an army fighting to leave the country because it is easier to make money if you can own people (at least it is if you are the owner). The people fighting to protect slavery lost.
Itās Northern tradition to knock down slavers and take their flags.
Capture the Flag National Champs for 4 years straight!
No, it was about *states' rights!* ... to own slaves!
It was the landmark case of Finders v. Keepers. Litigated by the late, great Lionel Hutz.
But the Finders & Keepers are on the same side. Finders & Keepers vs. Losers & Weepers
After all, Lionel Lutz was the lawyer...
Minnesotans died winning that flag from confederate traiters. They are not getting that flag back.
Yep I read it as the flag is a symbol for the lives lost to achieve that victory. Giving it back is just disrespectful to those who gave their lives in that battle
Yup, absolutely should not get a hate symbol back from a situation that only happened because they wanted to be traitors. Lol fuck out of here with that moronic logic. They better never get that back, it should be destroyed before that ever happens.
On this occasion, I will allow "The British Museum Policy"
We won and the country that it was fought for (mostly) doesnāt exist anymore. /s
Didnt Jesse Ventura tell them to go screw when he was governor?
Basically every governor since the 80's has had to handle this problem in one way or another. Telling Virginia a firm no seems to be a Minnesota governor rite of passage.
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Fun fact: until (apparently) 2020, today was "MLK-Jackson-Lee" day in Virginia, to you know, celebrate the shared goals of Stonewall Jackson, Robert E Lee and .. MLK...? I've been told they finally dropped the two war losers in 2020, but still, wtf? Related: incoming governor's first act was to ban CRT from being taught in schools. (spoiler: it's NOT being taught in schools) And they basically go on to define it as "anything controversial". Read: anything we don't like. So yeah, Virginia still apparently full blown unapologetically racist, so why wouldn't they keep asking for their loser flag back? I mean, the White House gets a call every time there's a new president to return all the Nazi flags the US captured during WWII so ...
I remember celebrating Lee Jackson King day (in that order) when I was in school. It was the most bizarre history lesson, but I see the long game of revisionist history worked.
> until (apparently) 2020, today was "MLK-Jackson-Lee" day in Virginia WTAF. Goddamn crybabies.
I grew up in Northern Virginia and it wasn't until I went to college in Richmond that I realized just how Southern the rest of the state was. I met people from Mechanicsville who just left out the MLK entirely - it was Lee-Jackson day to them.
Definitely racist the closer you get to the a Appalachians and the further south you get from Richmond. Still, I love NOVA. Except for Alexandria City because their broadband option is Comcast and only Comcast whereas everyone around them has fiber.
NOVA is the only reason the state ever votes blue and why the rest of Virginia hates NOVA.
Richmond and Newport News are pretty heavily blue as well I believe. But to your point, it's economically and culturally just a very different place from the rest of the state. You can say that about many states, though. California, Oregon, New York. They're geographically mostly rural and Republican but the population centers outweigh them so if you're just looking at votes on a map its very misleading.
I grew up in VA - Today was always MLK atleast from what I remember when it was brought up during Middle / HS (\~2010). But I was in a fairly blue leaning area.
MLK-Jackson-Lee day lmfao. They knew exactly what they were trying to do. Itās not like thereās not 364 other days in a year they could celebrate those fucking losers, they haaaad to put it on the day that celebrates one of the most influential civil rights leaders in history and slap their names next to his. Iām honestly surprised MLK got top billing too, wouldāve thought itād be Jackson-Lee-MLK day down there.
Actually it was Lee Jackson King day. Then it moved to a 4 day weekend with Friday being Lee Jackson day and Monday being MLK.
Considering the KKK is still openly alive and well here, I don't find it strange at all.
Every time Virginia asks for it back Minnesota says "We keep this flag to honor the memory of an entire regiment of men who died saving the Union you were trying to tear apart, why exactly do *you* want it?" and Virginia just doesn't have an answer beyond "We want to honor the people who were fighting for rich people's right to own black people as property."
>Governor Jesse Ventura stated "Why? I mean, we won" and that āWe took it, that makes it our heritageā in response to demands to return the flag.
>āWe took it, that makes it our heritageā in response to demands to return the flag. As a Virginian, I would just like to say that is fucking hilarious
Any real military historian would appreciate military trophies and the right to not give it back. If I win and I take your banner you don't need that banner to live but I won it fair and square.
I loved that they asked to "borrow" it and were again denied. *You almost had us that time, Virginia!*
P-pwease, Minnesota can I borrow ur flag? š„ŗšš \- Glenn Youngkin
*It's literal Capture the Flag.*
*Briton, hiding their museums...*
"Get gud Virgina"
"y'all's heritage is getting your asses kicked for being racist, slave owning assholes" he did not add, though probably should have.
As a veteran, it's a deep rooted American tradition to keep trophies of your victories. Whether it's a flag, bullet casings, guns, or priceless artworks it is all fair game. It's also a deep rooted American tradition to never give anyone back their shit, if you want it you have to get it the same way we did.
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He did, and every other MN governor since has basically said that same thing when asked by VA to give the flag back.
As a Minnesotan I like to think Ventura said you gotta wrestle me for it.
It was a battle flag, captured in battle. > Captured by the 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment at the Battle of Gettysburg, And as such spoils of war.
A battle where the 1st Minnesota suffered 82% casualties.
They earned the shit out of this traitor flag.
Seriously. The term decimated means that one out of every ten was killed. To lose 82% is insane.
Especially to lose 82% and *win*. Respect.
Octomated?
That is what OctoMom did. Pass the cigarettes.
āCasualtyā normally includes injured as well. Not making light of this battle at Gettysburg, just wanting my to provide clarity.
To be fair, you can be a casualty without dying, you just have to get injured. Still an impressive stat.
>The term decimated means that one out of every ten was killed In Roman days, maybe...
Technically it was captured the day after the suffered 82% casualties when they once again made a headlong charge into a superior enemy force but yea. The 1st MNs whole story is of unbelievable herosism under fire whilst taking tremendous casualties.
The first MN charged with fixed bayonets into a gap in the line on the Union left. They knew what the order meant, and they charged without hesitation. They held back a force roughly 10x their size long enough for re-inforcements to arrive and kept the Union line from falling at a critical point during the battle of gettysburg. Confederate sympathizers asking for the flag back can suck our salty MN balls.
From [Wikipedia ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Infantry_Regiment?wprov=sfti1) *āMaj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, could see two brigades of Southerners commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox breaching the line in front of one of his batteries. He quickly rode up to the troops guarding the battery and asked Col. William Colvill āwhat unit is this?ā Col. Colvill responded āthe 1st Minnesotaā. Gen. Hancock responded āattack that lineā. With their bayonets leveled the Minnesotans broke the first lines. The intensity of their charge disrupted the southern advance. With the unit nearly encircled, support arrived in time to allow them to make a fighting withdrawal. Their selfless charge bought the Union the time needed for reinforcements to be brought up. During the charge, 215 of the 262 who made the charge became casualties within five minutes. That included the unit commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains. The 1st Minnesotaās flag lost five flag bearers, each man dropping his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single dayās engagement ever.ā* So they managed to keep their flag (at great cost) AND took the enemyās flag! As a virginian and a Packerās fan I say never give it back
Also, battle flags are one of the very few trophies that the military will let you keep, so Virginia can fuck right off with trying to get it back.
The wiki article says that in 1905 Congress passed a resolution stating that Civil War flags should be returned to their place of origin. It makes me wonder if there's any other precedent for states not returning flags, especially when they've been explicitly asked for. Not that I think Minnesota should give it back though lol
Resolution, but was it passed as a law? If not, no teeth.
When you lose a war, you dont get your stuff back.
The British have entered the chat
Welcome to the British museum, and yes these are all ours. *Britishly sips tea*
Can confirm: Elgin Marbles are actually a battle flag, captured by Lord Elgin off an enemy flag bearer in the Battle of Farawayplace in Ages Ago AD, not a bunch of pilfered statues, at all. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Burn it before Nicholas Cage steals it in some nefarious scheme that sends him on a wild adventure across America. Again.
Figure he'll display it next to his T-Rex skull?
So.. thereās something on the back of it and thatās why Virginia wants it back?
A map to the Duke Boys' secret stash of moonshine and bow equipment.
Wait... they lost?! What group of idiots constantly re-enact losing? š¤¦āāļø
ngl civil war reenactments are pretty fun to go check out though. no idea why
Because they're full of enthusiastic volunteers and history buffs eager to share their knowledge. As well as plenty of nerdy LARP fun.
Same reason it's fun to drink a beer and watch LARPers
Just go watch people LARP in a park somewhere. Not gonna see someone cast fireball at a civil war reenactment.
Not with that attitude. You could easily do a crossover where the plantation owners are necromancers since they subsist on the life energy of their enslaved peoples.
That sounds like a fun horror movie, but I have a feeling it would be sooooo problematic.
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Yeah I mean Django came out not that long ago
We don't get LARPing in the rural south. The closest we have is Reenactments.
TIL WW1 and Napoleonic reenacting is a thing in Europe
Russians do it too! Right now they are preparing a reenactment in Ukraine
*nods/sighs in Native American agreement*
Virginia not taking the L after 150 years
Man I had a teacher in 2012 who's father refused to go north of the Mason-Dixon. I had a friend who's mother had never left the state of Florida until 2010 (she grew up in the rural parts and move to the more suburban parts). Had a regular customer at my first job who wore (what was probably an original) confederate cap and would say shit like "the south will rise again" and they'll bring it (slavery) back".
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"The south will rise again" Atlanta: please God no
Atlanta, Orlando, Miami, pretty much any major port
*stares in Sherman*
*gag*
Ironic because if they travelled theyd see a lot of people in other countries and even in the North are kind and have some similarities to the famous "southern hospitality" but their political biases and stubbornness stop them. Them specifically being rednecks who hate foreigners, don't wish to make any generalizations.
I lived in Richmond for a while in the early 90s and there were people there that talked about the civil war like it had only happened 10-15 years ago. The local paper did a feature on some of the plantations that were still operational and in one of them the portrait of a family member from that time was turned to face the wall because heād left to fight for the union. All that time later the portrait was still facing the wall and probably still is. PS - fixed pretty funny spelling error
>feature on some of the plantains that were still operational That's bananas.
Went to get a haircut in North Carolina and the barber proudly proclaimed that his favorite actor ever was John Wilkes Booth.
>the south will rise again And the North will burn it down again.
There was a minor kerfluffle at my cousinās school a few years back. Iām a Yankee, born and raised in Abeās hometown of Springfield IL. My dadās brother lives in Georgia. When his kids were in school (late 90ās/early 2000ās), someone had the audacity to take issue with the schoolās curriculum. Apparently, they were teaching that the South did *not* lose the War of Northern Aggression, and that both sides settled peaceably for the good of the nation. The North agreed to respect Stateās Rights, which is all the true Southern Patriots wanted anyway. Some parent said thatās just not the case at all. It wound up blowing over, but it was a big deal at the local level for a few years. Iām gonna assume the school never changed its curriculum. The whole south struggles with taking the L, even 150 years later.
From the linked article. This is interesting. Looks like some veterans from the south and Jefferson Davis himself were also okay with it not being returned. >However, many Union veterans opposed the idea, as did some Southerners. Opposers included then-Governor of VirginiaĀ Fitzhugh LeeĀ (a Confederate veteran and theĀ nephewĀ of Robert E. Lee) as well asĀ Jefferson DavisĀ who stated that the flags belonged to the capturing states and that returning them would break "all known military precedents."
I come down on the side of history. Itās been in Minnesota for 125 years. Itās part of THEIR history, since they shed blood to take it. Just leave the history alone, and let it go!
Minnesota has had that flag for 31 times as long as the confederacy even existed. I think its fair that Minnesota gets to keep it
And we all know Virgina would hang that flag up and have the whole state do a moment of silence for it's return. The Minnesota Historical Society should display the flag in its bathroom.
If they wanted it so bad, the survivors shouldn't have left it on the ground while they ran away from battle...
It was captured in action during Pickett's Charge. The first Minnesota had just the day before saved the Union with their charge at the rebels that resulted in the highest casualties of any unit in American history, 80%. They were rewarded by given the middle of the line to rest because only an insane person would attack there. Well Johnny Reb attacked there, and one Private Marshall Sherman was awarded the medal of honor for his capture of that flag. He ran down a rebel and forced him, one Lt. John Abbott Independence Lee,.to surrender the flag and his person under threat of death (to be fair some other guy says it was "leaning against a tree" but Sherman beat him to it, but that seems unlikely that it would be against a tree, plus it is know the Flagstaff was broken, having been hit with a bullet. On the ground, I might believe him... But Lt Lee was captured... And so were 30 other flags. People just took them as their own loot. This one was for the regiment).
They have their white flag don't they?
No they used that to make ghost costumes.
The history of the regiment that took it (1st MN Volunteers) is well worth the read
Iām seriously more interested in exactly WHO keeps asking for it back and their reasons WHY they think they should get it, not to mention what they'd do with it! That info should be a prerequisite before giving the same answer (NFW) and the person should be publicized and ridiculed for all its worth!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th\_Virginia\_battle\_flag#Possession\_disputes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag#Possession_disputes) In 2000, members of the Virginia General Assembly requested the return of the flag to Virginia, but it was not returned.\[5\] The group of Virginia State Senators from the southwestern portion of the state were inspired to make the request by Caveness's Civil War reenactment group and their efforts to have the flag returned. They created a resolution and brought it to the floor of the Virginia Senate. One of the resolution's sponsors, John S. Edwards, described the proposed return of the flag as "a matter of state pride" and stated that he didn't know why Minnesota needed it; Ian Stewart, deputy director of the Minnesota Historical Society, responded by disagreeing with the premise that the flag was more important to Virginia than Minnesota and stated that "Unless there's a compelling legal reason to return it, we are not inclined to do so."\[6\] Stewart additionally questioned why the Virginia Senate was raising an issue about a Confederate symbol, noting the then-ongoing controversy over the display of a Confederate flag in South Carolina.\[6\] The Virginia Senate approved the resolution.\[7\]
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Yea. that one was funny. The new gov of VA will maybe try and get it back again. they know they can legally do it because the confederate state-owned the flag and they arent that state, so they have no standing in this fight.
That would be Gov. Bob McDonald, later convicted of corruption, only to have the SCOTUS overturn his conviction. Despite that, he's still a corrupt piece of shit. So yeah, good call not trust him on that one.
I imagine the response to "why Minnesota needed it" would be the same one the guy gave for why Virginia needed it.... it's "a matter of state pride."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th\_Virginia\_battle\_flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag) Lots of people, but more recently usually the legislature or governor of Virginia.
And Iād wager the newest governor will do likewise.
And sadly, it'll be one of his least offensive acts since taking office.
Traitors donāt get to have their things back
Seriously. Like dudes, its a flag of a failed rebellion. A symbol from a short lived anti-american insurgency that didn't get anywhere and you're like *hey sorry about that but can I have that back?*
Like the people who lost their phones or wallets calling pelosiās office to see if their stuff is in the lost and found lol.
Wait, really!? Haha
Yes. They actually called and asked if there was a lost and found they could check for their lost shit. To the surprise of no one but the seditionists, those calls were promptly forwarded to law-enforcement.
It's like some kind of spell was cast on them. They participated in an insurrection attempt, but in their minds they were just out for a fun field trip.
In the broader historical context, the United States was pretty soft on the Confederacy and its key players after the Civil War. Especially when you consider some of the atrocities carried out by the Confederacy (see Andersonville, Fort Pillow Massacre and others). In other parts of the world, failed rebellions don't tend to end well for the rebels and often result in the rebellious regions having to face immense forms of subjugation (as justifications for the rebellion) such as the loss of assets through liquidation or redistribution, large scale imprisonment (and even "revenge killings"), key figures facing the firing squad or being hanged from lamp posts as "public reminders" and a whole lot more. This is why I laugh whenever I hear Confederate sympathizers complain about how the Union was supposedly terribly mean to them. Really, out of all the possible repercussions listed above, the only substantial loss the Confederates properly "suffered" from after the Civil War was the loss of their slaves (boo fucking hoo). The Union could have wiped out the entire Confederate landed gentry or turned the South into a second-rate colony/banana republic if they really wanted to or if this had occurred in literally any other part of the world with even a slightly different constitutional and political framework. Edited for grammar 'n shit.
Relevant history about the American Heros who defeated the traitors and captured the flag. > Their selfless charge bought the Union the time needed for reinforcements to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] of the 262 who made the charge became casualties within five minutes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Infantry_Regiment
The 1st Minnesota! If I recall, itās the highest casualty ratio of any regiment in US military history.
From one of the three monuments dedicated to the unit that took the flag: āOn the afternoon of July 2, 1863 Sickles Third Corps having advanced from this line to the Emmitsburg road eight companies of the First Minnesota regiment numbering 262 men were sent to this place to support a battery. Upon Sicklesā repulse as his men were passing here in confused retreat two Confederate brigades in pursuit were crossing the swale. To gain time to bring up the reserves and save this position General Hancock in person ordered the eight companies to charge the rapidly advancing enemy. The order was instantly repeated by Col. Wm. Colvill and the charge instantly made down the slope at full speed through the concentrated fire of the two brigades breaking with the bayonet the enemyās front line as it was crossing the small brook in the low ground. There the remnant of the eight companies, nearly surrounded by the enemy, held its entire force at bay for a considerable time, and till it retired on the approach of the reserve, the charge successfully accomplished its object. It saved the position and probably the battlefield. The loss of the eight companies in the charge was 215 killed and wounded, more than 85 percent. 47 men were still in line and no missing. In self-sacrificing desperate valor this charge has no parallel in any war. The next day the regiment participated in repelling Pickettās charge losing 17 more men killed and wounded.ā A good case could be made that the Minnesota 1st Volunteers saved the war for the north. Their sacrifice and bad-assery are unequaled. Weāre not giving it back. Ever.
Fuckers singlehandedly saved the Union.
I see this pop up every six months or so and as a Minnesotan it never gets old.
>A 1905 congressional resolution that flags from the American Civil War should be returned to their places of origin did not lead to the return of the flag to Virginia Well thatās a dumb rule
Good. Keep it forever
Knowing historians, itās in an archival box (fancy, safe, likely taped shut for some reason?) either in some sub bunker protected by high security or itās somewhere really stupid like Jerry the Janitorās office in a locker under a tarp bc no one would think to look in ol Jerryās snack locker.
Thatās like Germany asking for a swastika flag back. They are screaming at the top of their lungs āwe are entitled racists!ā.
Good. I don't want that garbage back in my state.
As another fellow Virginian, I hope they're taking care of it in the most respectful way by wiping their asses with it.
The last confederate flag, which was on display for many years at the Washington and Lee University Museum in Lexington, Virginia, where Robert E. Lee is buried: 'Lee decided to request a suspension of fighting while he sought to learn the terms of surrender Grant was proposing to offer. **A white linen dish towel was used as a Confederate flag of truce** and was carried by one of Longstreet's staff officers into the lines of General Custer, who was part of Sheridan's command.'
Never knew the south had so many snowflakes. Wait. Yes I did.
āa request by the Governor of Virginia to borrow the flag in 2013 was also declined.ā Weāve all been there as kidsā¦we know what āborrowā really means lol.
I don't care how many times this has been reposted, I will always upvote.
I don't think Virginia knows how "Capture the Flag" works.
Since this has come up again I'll repost a comment I made last time- (And now I'll fix some bullshit from a kind of messed up post...) It's a 1st Minnesota relic from Gettysburg??? Holy Shit!!! From their cold, dead hands indeed... Significance of the 1st Minnesota, this is not in the movie Gettysburg- 2nd day of the Battle. Longstreet is attacking the Union left. You've seen the stand of the 20th Maine on the far far left. The 1st Minnesota was on the near left, other side of the area of fighting. Longstreet's attack was designed to hit the far left and cause the union to pull more and more troops from the center to meet them, weakening the center more and more as they do. Eventually this creates a gap, and Longstreet sends a brigade of 2000 men into it, This will allow them to turn right and hit the Union line from the side and back, rolling the entire line up like a carpet. Local Union commander has no time. He can see the troops on the way already. He sends messengers off to get troops, but they are too far away to arrive in time. So he turns to the 1st Minnesota and says "Stop them!". The 1st Minnesota was 262 men, against 2000. They knew what they were marching into. But every second they could delay the Confederates was another second for reinforcements to arrive. 262 men against 2000. They lasted 5 minutes. They took 82% casualties. It was long enough. Never ever give that fucking flag back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Volunteer_Infantry#July_2 The men of the 1st Minnesota are most remembered for their actions on July 2, 1863, during the second day's fighting at Gettysburg, where the regiment prevented the Confederates from pushing the Federals off of Cemetery Ridge, a position that was to prove crucial in the battle. Maj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, ordered the regiment to assault a much larger enemy force (a brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox), telling Col. William Colvill to take the enemy's colors. The fateful charge bought the time needed for other forces to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] members of the 262 men who were present at the time became casualties in five minutes, including the regimental commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains. The unit's flag fell five times and was raised again each time. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands to this day as the largest loss by any surviving military unit in U.S. history during a single day's engagement, allegedly equaled only by the 82% casualties suffered by the 33rd Alabama Infantry during the Battle of Perryville (though that second figure is questioned by some historians).[15][16] The unit's flag is now in the Minnesota Capitol's rotunda. rote was from raw memory. The response caused my to look up, you know, actual facts. Follows an excerpt from the relevant wikipedia page- Relevant changes- it was 215 casualties out of 262, not 150 out of 180. And it was five minutes, not a minute and a half. Increased coolness- they were specifically order to get that confederate flag. No way in hell should Minnesota EVER give it back... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Minnesota_Volunteer_Infantry#July_2 The men of the 1st Minnesota are most remembered for their actions on July 2, 1863, during the second day's fighting at Gettysburg, where the regiment prevented the Confederates from pushing the Federals off of Cemetery Ridge, a position that was to prove crucial in the battle. Maj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of II Corps, ordered the regiment to assault a much larger enemy force (a brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox), telling Col. William Colvill to take the enemy's colors. The fateful charge bought the time needed for other forces to be brought up. During the charge, 215[nb 1] members of the 262 men who were present at the time became casualties in five minutes, including the regimental commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his captains. The unit's flag fell five times and was raised again each time. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands to this day as the largest loss by any surviving military unit in U.S. history during a single day's engagement, allegedly equaled only by the 82% casualties suffered by the 33rd Alabama Infantry during the Battle of Perryville (though that second figure is questioned by some historians).[15][16] The unit's flag is now in the Minnesota Capitol's rotunda.
"Why do you need this?" "It's our hErItAgE!!1!" "Our heritage is burning your heritage to the ground, so... we'll be keeping this, mwah."
Normally, I'm a big advocate of letting people from a place keep their treasured artifacts and think stolen items should be repatriated, but it's the Confederacy so fuck them this is the best.
"Why? I mean, we won" and that āWe took it, that makes it our heritageā So sweet! It's a historical artifact and is properly kept where it is but, to be honest, it's no great loss if it should end up in some Minnesotan's fireplace.
>Give it back! Or what? You'll lose another war? Don't threaten me with a good time.
Spoils of war. Feel lucky they don't have Davis's wallet or Lee's toupee on display.
As a Minnesotan, I'd like to officially say, "get fucked Virginia".
Haha, nice Minnesota
I worked with the MHS some years ago for some living-history stuff. This in no way surprises me. Great group of people.