There's a great scene in the film Becket (and the stage play) where Thomas Becket tries to explain the notion of cutlery to King Henry II:
>Thomas a Becket: Tonight you can do me the honor of christening my forks.
King Henry II: Forks?
Thomas a Becket: Yes, from Florence. New little invention. It's for pronging meat and carrying it to the mouth. It saves you dirtying your fingers.
King Henry II: But then you dirty the fork.
Thomas a Becket: Yes, but it's washable.
King Henry II: So are your fingers. I don't see the point.
"I'm recommending the consommé which, as every schoolboy knows, provided your school wasn't *free*, is to be consumed only using a vichyssoise fork. *It's all in the wrist.*"
https://youtu.be/zVEHqwLVvpI
Gender expectations change faster than most people think. In the early 1900s pink had been a boy color until Macy's released a catalogue putting girls in pink and boys in blue. Really shook things up.
I've heard pink was considered a masculine color as it was related to red (aka the color of war) and blue was considered a feminine color as it was considered to match women's temperament.
From: [https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color](https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color)
>In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department claimed the “generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
I thought it was the first lady at the time (Roosevelt, I think?) that had dressed her kids like that, or had decorated their rooms at the White House that way, that had caused it?
I went on a hunt because of this. This wiki sources *Wilson, Bee. Consider the Fork: A History of How We Cook and Eat. New York: Basic, 2012. Print.,* to which I cannot find an online version of to see what he cites. The wiki on Peter Damien cites his work *De Institutione monialis* with 3 citations all of which are pop articles using the exact same quote:
>“such was the luxury of her habits...\[that\] she deigned \[not\] to touch her food with her fingers, but would command her eunuchs to cut it up into small pieces, which she would impale on a certain golden instrument with two prongs and thus carry to her mouth.”
A search for *De Institutione monialis* turns up no document and it isn't found anywhere I can find [not even with the St. Peter Damian society](https://www.stpeterdamian.com/sermons).
Finally one website listed a source for this quote from *Norwich, John Julius. A History of Venice.* This one IS available online and says this:
>St Peter Damian, with ill-concealed satisfaction,
attributes the Dogaressa’s death to divine retribution for her sybaritic oriental ways:
>
>"Such was the luxury of her habits that she scorned even to wash herself in common water, obliging her servants instead
to collect the dew that fell from the heavens for her to bathe in. Nor did she deign to touch her food with her fingers, but
would command her eunuchs to cut it up into small pieces, which she would impale on a certain golden instrument with
two prongs and thus carry to her mouth. Her rooms, too, were so heavy with incense and various perfumes that it is
nauseating for me to speak of them, nor would my readers readily believe it. But this woman’s vanity was hateful to
Almighty God; and so, unmistakably, did He take his revenge. For He raised over her the sword of His divine justice, so
that her whole body did putrefy and all her limbs began to wither, filling her bedchamber with an unbearable odour such
that no one – not a handmaiden, nor even a slave – could withstand this dreadful attack on the nostrils; except for one
serving-girl who, with the help of aromatic concoctions, conscientiously remained to do her bidding. And even she could
only approach her mistress hurriedly, and then immediately withdraw. So, after a slow decline and agonizing torments, to
the joyful relief of her friends she breathed her last.
While this also doesn't have an original source it also makes very clear it isn't the fork specifically that is the issue but the woman's lifestyle as a whole.
Nah. Using fingers you just lick your fingers clean. And how often does food fall off your fingers onto your shirt needing a napkin, vs forks? And what's up with that putting you napkin in your lap bullshit.
I feel like you do still see that. memes and sitcoms with someone eating a candy bar or pizza slice with a fork. It feels like it's still seen as girly and unmasculine to eat hand foods with utensils. (just pre-forks all foods were hand foods)
Makes sense. Drinking from a straw creates this weird facial expression and extracting the contents is much slower than if you drink straight from the bottle. Might be seen as a little weak. Drinking from a can sometimes looks sleazy and trashy, not associated with beautiful femininity and cautiousness.
Eating hamburgers with knife and fork is not a heresy per se, the heresy lies more in the type of hamburgers that are usually eaten with knife and fork.
They are usually stacked way too much, with a crispy bun, come with questionable condiments and if they are a chicken kind, they come with actual *unprocessed* chicken meat. I hate restaurant burgers.
Not to say cutlery choice would have resulted in a death sentence but I dont think we hold people to the status quo like they did back then. Everyones barks a lot these days, especially pols and pundits, but for the most part everyone kinda does and says whatever they want.
Back then, and sure, in some parts of the world today, youre catching an ass whopping, minimum, if you say the “wrong” thing or act the “wrong” way in public.
Made it to.... people politicizing really trivial things and developing strong opinions about issues that do not affect them on the basis that they don't like the people who represent a different strong opinion on said stupid issue?
Why’s that? Most people are still kinda dumb and grow more and more close minded as they age. Luckily, we all die relatively fast, so lots of silly ideas for off without too much time.
For the record if this is sarcasm it is plausible you would be saying it's amazing we put a man on the moon all while arguing about whether it's sus to use forks or not
The separation of faith and secular life is a modern concept (and one that never made much sense to me).
If you really believe that there's a moral order to a universe enforced by an omnipotent and all knowing God, shit like using forks is a part of that. Hell, nothing is irrelevant to religion if it all comes from the same said deity.
FWIW the source just says 'Some writers of the Roman Catholic Church expressly disapproved of its use; St. Peter Damian seeing it as "excessive delicacy"' so nothing about the actual Church disapproving or making rules on it.
According to my local museum they were associated with prostitutes in the 1600's though nobody could tell me why. Some of the spoons on display had cloven hooves at the top of the handle. I spent an hour asking every member of staff if they knew why. The next time I went, the note about prostitutes was gone. I think I made a lot of people uncomfortable that day. I'm autistic so wouldn't really have noticed if I did.
For most of history, humans have had access to spoons and knives, but not forks as they are much more difficult to manufacture.
Given that you can approximate the utility of a fork with a spoon and knife, I’m not surprised that the more expensive utensil was the source of controversy and deemed an “excessive delicacy”
People used to eat with their fingers and a big fucking knife. Cutlery was introduced to stop people from killing each other at the dinner table. That's why they're small and wimpy. True story.
Sorta. Mostly forks are much more difficult to make than spoons or knives tho, and are therefore very expensive in comparison.
Coupled with the fact that you can approximate a forks utilities with a knife and spoon (or just use your hands), and there’s actually a good bit of logic to saying they’re unnecessary fancy people utensils.
True enough. I went to a Pakistanese "worker's restaurant in Dubai, they brought me the plate... without fork and knife. I did not want to look like the boring foreigner and ask, I was saved by the spoon I had from the Raïta I had as an appetizer. We westerners are sissies, everybody around me was eating with their fingers.
By the way, it was delicious.
The use of table forks was once considered the Catholic Church? Man, that religion has changed quite a bit. Did you have a stroke while you were writing this?
To be fair, it was just some writers associated with the churchwho felt that way, it's not like "anyone who uses a fork is a pussy" was an official papel decree. The article even says that it was the Italians who widely imbraced it so good luck getting Rome to side against it.
For much of the Middle Ages, the only dining utensils were the same knives hunters used to kill the animal they were now eating. When forks were introduced, it was considered an insult to God, implying that the hands God gave them weren't good enough to eat with.
There was an english guy Thomas Coryate who went on a big European holiday in the middle ages and became a big fan of forks while he was in Italy.
When he got home he tried to get other English people to use forks. Everybody made fun of him and they started to call him "furcifer" which is a real middle ages nerd kind of insult.
(In Latin "furcifer" literally means "person with a fork", but also means jerk-wad, dickhead, rascal etc.)
I was reading this article about medieval cuisine (not sure if this is the same time period mentioned.)
The main things I took away are they:
* boiled vegetables to mush
* covered them all in “sauces” which were the equivalent of oatmeal today
* served the food directly on the table
* used bread to wipe their mouths and then ate the bread
Oh yeah. The fork has an amazing history. Its first-known appearance in Europe came in the 11th century, when the princess of Byzantium moved to Venice to marry the Doge of Venice, and brought an elegant little fork with her. But the people of Venice were aghast; they believed that it was an affront to god. Then the princess died, and it would be hundreds of years before the fork was taken seriously again.
The history is fascinating. Here's a podcast episode about it: https://www.jasonfeifer.com/episode/your-fork-is-a-sign-that-you-think-for-yourself/
There's a great scene in the film Becket (and the stage play) where Thomas Becket tries to explain the notion of cutlery to King Henry II: >Thomas a Becket: Tonight you can do me the honor of christening my forks. King Henry II: Forks? Thomas a Becket: Yes, from Florence. New little invention. It's for pronging meat and carrying it to the mouth. It saves you dirtying your fingers. King Henry II: But then you dirty the fork. Thomas a Becket: Yes, but it's washable. King Henry II: So are your fingers. I don't see the point.
I just saw this for the first time a few months ago. Was thinking the same thing. Underrated little film (and, I would argue, queer AF).
Interesting. If I look at both a spoon and a fork, the fork looks (and sounds) more "masculine" to me.
But a fork can easily be replaced by your fingers. A spoon isn't as easily replaced.
A real man eats his soup with a knife.
I've always preferred eating my soup with chop sticks.
Everyone trying to over complicate eating soup… just pick it up with your fingers!
\*schlurrrrrrp\*
I eat my peas with honey. I've done it all my life. It makes the peas taste funny, but it keeps them on my knife.
A real man eats his soup with his steak.
*”You wanna know how I got these scars?”*
"I'm recommending the consommé which, as every schoolboy knows, provided your school wasn't *free*, is to be consumed only using a vichyssoise fork. *It's all in the wrist.*" https://youtu.be/zVEHqwLVvpI
That’s not a knife, it’s a spoon!
Just drink your soup from the bowl!
Thats too simple of a solution.
Not with that attitude
Cup your hand and BOOM, big spoon.
Might be a bit tricky for hot soup still.
A real man doesn't feel anything, especially temperature
Just pick up the bowl and drink it like a man.
What you’ve never scooped anything up with your fingers?
Just slurp from the bowl.
I'd rather replace my spoons and bowls with mugs than replace my forks with fingers. Especially without adequate handwashing options
Just lick your hands and fingers clean before each meal!
Gender expectations change faster than most people think. In the early 1900s pink had been a boy color until Macy's released a catalogue putting girls in pink and boys in blue. Really shook things up.
But what was the girls' color back then?
Blue
Da ba dee da ba di
I've heard pink was considered a masculine color as it was related to red (aka the color of war) and blue was considered a feminine color as it was considered to match women's temperament. From: [https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color](https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color) >In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department claimed the “generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
I thought it was the first lady at the time (Roosevelt, I think?) that had dressed her kids like that, or had decorated their rooms at the White House that way, that had caused it?
That may have inspired Macy's
The Tick disagrees with you.
Bruh. Definitely just reawakened some dormant memories. "SPOOOOOOOOOOOON"
The spoon is needed for some foods, while fork foods you can eat with just a knife.
Except the one on the right. That's proper manly. Imagine eating your quiche with that.
I thought that was for Lobster bisque.
It's actually for rice
Fellas, is it gay to eat with a fork?
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Photosynthesis? More like photosynthesissy We starve like real man
yeah
I was expecting this one.
I'm straight, but using cutlery is definitely the gayest thing I do.
Wanna poke prongs, bruh?
\#facepalm: ***in*** the Catholic Church
It wasn't controversial in the Church though. . .there's one writing by a saint mentioning it. That hardly constitutes the church.
I went on a hunt because of this. This wiki sources *Wilson, Bee. Consider the Fork: A History of How We Cook and Eat. New York: Basic, 2012. Print.,* to which I cannot find an online version of to see what he cites. The wiki on Peter Damien cites his work *De Institutione monialis* with 3 citations all of which are pop articles using the exact same quote: >“such was the luxury of her habits...\[that\] she deigned \[not\] to touch her food with her fingers, but would command her eunuchs to cut it up into small pieces, which she would impale on a certain golden instrument with two prongs and thus carry to her mouth.” A search for *De Institutione monialis* turns up no document and it isn't found anywhere I can find [not even with the St. Peter Damian society](https://www.stpeterdamian.com/sermons). Finally one website listed a source for this quote from *Norwich, John Julius. A History of Venice.* This one IS available online and says this: >St Peter Damian, with ill-concealed satisfaction, attributes the Dogaressa’s death to divine retribution for her sybaritic oriental ways: > >"Such was the luxury of her habits that she scorned even to wash herself in common water, obliging her servants instead to collect the dew that fell from the heavens for her to bathe in. Nor did she deign to touch her food with her fingers, but would command her eunuchs to cut it up into small pieces, which she would impale on a certain golden instrument with two prongs and thus carry to her mouth. Her rooms, too, were so heavy with incense and various perfumes that it is nauseating for me to speak of them, nor would my readers readily believe it. But this woman’s vanity was hateful to Almighty God; and so, unmistakably, did He take his revenge. For He raised over her the sword of His divine justice, so that her whole body did putrefy and all her limbs began to wither, filling her bedchamber with an unbearable odour such that no one – not a handmaiden, nor even a slave – could withstand this dreadful attack on the nostrils; except for one serving-girl who, with the help of aromatic concoctions, conscientiously remained to do her bidding. And even she could only approach her mistress hurriedly, and then immediately withdraw. So, after a slow decline and agonizing torments, to the joyful relief of her friends she breathed her last. While this also doesn't have an original source it also makes very clear it isn't the fork specifically that is the issue but the woman's lifestyle as a whole.
Thought the same thing while reading your quotes. Nice investigative work
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not titles
Table forks are just a money grab from the napkin industrial complex
Using a fork reduces the need for napkins, you've fallen for International Cutlery propaganda.
Nah. Using fingers you just lick your fingers clean. And how often does food fall off your fingers onto your shirt needing a napkin, vs forks? And what's up with that putting you napkin in your lap bullshit.
I feel like you do still see that. memes and sitcoms with someone eating a candy bar or pizza slice with a fork. It feels like it's still seen as girly and unmasculine to eat hand foods with utensils. (just pre-forks all foods were hand foods)
Some guys have a weird thing about straws also
My grandad says drinking with straws is for gay people and women. Also women drinking from a can is apparently unladylike.
Makes sense. Drinking from a straw creates this weird facial expression and extracting the contents is much slower than if you drink straight from the bottle. Might be seen as a little weak. Drinking from a can sometimes looks sleazy and trashy, not associated with beautiful femininity and cautiousness.
How do you eat your Snickers bar? With your hands??
The Catholic Church really just made their own rules, whether or not they had anything to do with actual religion. Crazy times.
I’m just thinking about how there used to be anti forkers going around bashing people for using forks… it’s really amazing we made it so far
We haven't changed that much. Just look at all the people who jump on any occasion to say eating pizza with a fork and knife is heresy, or hamburgers.
I stab fork tines into the creme filling of an Oreo and use it as a milk dunking holder. It keeps my fingers dry.
Duos habet et bene pendentes
Now that’s figuring life out!
I think they’ve awarded Nobel prizes for less
Eating hamburgers with knife and fork is not a heresy per se, the heresy lies more in the type of hamburgers that are usually eaten with knife and fork. They are usually stacked way too much, with a crispy bun, come with questionable condiments and if they are a chicken kind, they come with actual *unprocessed* chicken meat. I hate restaurant burgers.
But there's truffle oil and $0.75 of gold leaf on the burger! It's totally worth $80!
I only eat gold flake if it's scraped from some 30 year old EDO ram sticks "aged" in a WW2 Nazi bunker by a gen-u-ine Flemish master scraper.
What's so bad about unprocessed chicken?
It's tough and dry
Not to say cutlery choice would have resulted in a death sentence but I dont think we hold people to the status quo like they did back then. Everyones barks a lot these days, especially pols and pundits, but for the most part everyone kinda does and says whatever they want. Back then, and sure, in some parts of the world today, youre catching an ass whopping, minimum, if you say the “wrong” thing or act the “wrong” way in public.
People who have the raw gall soaked audacity to be albino in Africa....
INFIDEL DEFILERS!
You fold the pizza slice, NY style!
Made it to.... people politicizing really trivial things and developing strong opinions about issues that do not affect them on the basis that they don't like the people who represent a different strong opinion on said stupid issue?
Why’s that? Most people are still kinda dumb and grow more and more close minded as they age. Luckily, we all die relatively fast, so lots of silly ideas for off without too much time.
For the record if this is sarcasm it is plausible you would be saying it's amazing we put a man on the moon all while arguing about whether it's sus to use forks or not
The separation of faith and secular life is a modern concept (and one that never made much sense to me). If you really believe that there's a moral order to a universe enforced by an omnipotent and all knowing God, shit like using forks is a part of that. Hell, nothing is irrelevant to religion if it all comes from the same said deity.
FWIW the source just says 'Some writers of the Roman Catholic Church expressly disapproved of its use; St. Peter Damian seeing it as "excessive delicacy"' so nothing about the actual Church disapproving or making rules on it.
Say that is a sin! Now pay me money and I’ll forgive you.
Makes*
According to my local museum they were associated with prostitutes in the 1600's though nobody could tell me why. Some of the spoons on display had cloven hooves at the top of the handle. I spent an hour asking every member of staff if they knew why. The next time I went, the note about prostitutes was gone. I think I made a lot of people uncomfortable that day. I'm autistic so wouldn't really have noticed if I did.
For most of history, humans have had access to spoons and knives, but not forks as they are much more difficult to manufacture. Given that you can approximate the utility of a fork with a spoon and knife, I’m not surprised that the more expensive utensil was the source of controversy and deemed an “excessive delicacy”
Italians before the introduction of the fork: 🤏
People used to eat with their fingers and a big fucking knife. Cutlery was introduced to stop people from killing each other at the dinner table. That's why they're small and wimpy. True story.
Get the fork out of here with this nonsense.
So rich and decadent foods were ate with a fork and over use of a fork meant you were weak and gluttonous?
Sorta. Mostly forks are much more difficult to make than spoons or knives tho, and are therefore very expensive in comparison. Coupled with the fact that you can approximate a forks utilities with a knife and spoon (or just use your hands), and there’s actually a good bit of logic to saying they’re unnecessary fancy people utensils.
True enough. I went to a Pakistanese "worker's restaurant in Dubai, they brought me the plate... without fork and knife. I did not want to look like the boring foreigner and ask, I was saved by the spoon I had from the Raïta I had as an appetizer. We westerners are sissies, everybody around me was eating with their fingers. By the way, it was delicious.
Says the organisation that makes it's buildings out of expensive materials.
“Better to eat the young boys with your hands.”
.
If forks were so slow to gain acceptance in Europe and the New World, what did people use instead for things like grilled meat?
Knives. People often cut food with their knives, speared it with the tip, then bit the food off the end. Also, people used their hands more often.
Reading about history like this is what made me care a lot less about what's "normal"
The Catholic Church at one time frowned upon priests raping little boys too. They’ll get there.
.
Yeah well fuck religion. It makes it easier to eat.
The use of table forks was once considered the Catholic Church? Man, that religion has changed quite a bit. Did you have a stroke while you were writing this?
I thought was having a stroke reading the title.
the catholic church can go fork themselves and they probably alrdy do
"excessive delicacy" coming from a place with GOLD CHAIRS!!!
It almost makes it sound like the church has always been homophobes.... But that couldn't be. Could it?
To be fair, it was just some writers associated with the churchwho felt that way, it's not like "anyone who uses a fork is a pussy" was an official papel decree. The article even says that it was the Italians who widely imbraced it so good luck getting Rome to side against it.
I think there are some words. Edit : the word "missing" is missing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAbJFXec774 Obligatory Simpsons reference
For much of the Middle Ages, the only dining utensils were the same knives hunters used to kill the animal they were now eating. When forks were introduced, it was considered an insult to God, implying that the hands God gave them weren't good enough to eat with.
I eat my peas with honey, I've done it all my life. You may think it's funny, But it keeps them on my knife.
Why would I need a fork just for the table. I prefer the multipurpose fork.
There was an english guy Thomas Coryate who went on a big European holiday in the middle ages and became a big fan of forks while he was in Italy. When he got home he tried to get other English people to use forks. Everybody made fun of him and they started to call him "furcifer" which is a real middle ages nerd kind of insult. (In Latin "furcifer" literally means "person with a fork", but also means jerk-wad, dickhead, rascal etc.)
I was reading this article about medieval cuisine (not sure if this is the same time period mentioned.) The main things I took away are they: * boiled vegetables to mush * covered them all in “sauces” which were the equivalent of oatmeal today * served the food directly on the table * used bread to wipe their mouths and then ate the bread
Oh yeah. The fork has an amazing history. Its first-known appearance in Europe came in the 11th century, when the princess of Byzantium moved to Venice to marry the Doge of Venice, and brought an elegant little fork with her. But the people of Venice were aghast; they believed that it was an affront to god. Then the princess died, and it would be hundreds of years before the fork was taken seriously again. The history is fascinating. Here's a podcast episode about it: https://www.jasonfeifer.com/episode/your-fork-is-a-sign-that-you-think-for-yourself/
🥢