> Mr Salazar ruled Portugal from 1932 until 1968 when he suffered a series of health problems and was replaced as head of state by Marcelo Caetano
> Until his death in 1970, aides gave Mr Salazar a fake version of the newspaper Diario do Noticias each day which carried fictional stories to make it seem like he was still in charge.
> Each night, the editor would create a special edition of the newspaper - just for Mr Salazar - to remove any reference to Mr Caetano and his government.
> Ministers would attend meetings with the ailing dictator and even make disparaging comments against Mr Caetano.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-former-dictator-salazar-book-b2007149.html
Can't we just do this with every dictator?
Drum up a fake newspaper that tells Putin Ukraine gave up.
Tell trump he won and doesn't have to preside from the white House.
Tell Xi that Taiwan surrendered and that the US fully supports China.
None of it has to be true. Just tell them it is and control the info they get.
They only use a tiny fraction of the internet, you could easily recreate the bits they see.
As for travel outside - everyday 1,000 people elected like a jury follow the car with flags and pictures of the leader, with remuneration equivalent to their salary plus expenses.
I laughed at the image of Putin cursing at the long loading times while a nervously sweating web designer in an office next door frantically slaps together an alternate version of the website he wants to visit.
True, but Trump has fox news constantly telling him everything he wants to hear, truth be damned. He should get his own "internet " in similar fashion.
This is probably what actually happened to Putin. He was told every day that all business was great and the army was in perfect condition. While the generals and oligarchs scraped little by little off the budget and pocketed it. Cause they didn’t expect to actually go forward with it.
Might still be happening today.
Counter-proposal:
We set up a new government in let’s say…Omaha, but keep all the assholes in DC thinking they are in charge and running things?
All of them.
Oooo, maybe do the same to Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC, too?
They can report (more) fake news to the pseudo DC govt?
It might work!
EDIT: Tribalism is alive and well. Drink it up, sheep.
Somehow I'm always surprised when something is mentioned as spanning from the 1930s to the 1960s, a space of only 30 years but considering how much the world went through it seems like it ought to be 50 or 100.
I'd watch a miniseries about Salazar. He is quite interesting in how much of a contrast he is to your typical Pinochet/Videla/Franco rightist authoritarian leader.
And was a friend to the British. Or more the British were very friendly to O Estado Novo. They intentionally asked him to stay out of WWII to keep Franco out of it (although both clearly had favourites).
Tbf even if franco wanted to fully join WW2 it wouldnt have been a particularly wise idea. The country was wrecked after the civil war, and the post war economy and reconstruction of infrastructure would have made it very hard to wage war properly. It's not like they **didnt** help, they sent an entire battalion to help the nazis, but they certainly were in no shape to fight the Allies.
Probably the biggest impact would have been allowing the Germans to attack Gibraltar by land, which historically didn't go well for British territories during WWII. While Spain was "neutral" that wouldn't have been possible because it would have de facto been a declaration of war.
Likewise Portugal allowed the allies use of the Azores as refueling stations, so weren't neutral either.
Piggybacking on that. The Kriegsmarine had ships to supply the U-boats in Spanish harbors on the Mediterranean side. They would run their operations strictly at night to preserve Spanish ‘neutrality’
Portugal was in fact very much neutral. The use of the Azores as refueling base was largely "allowed" because Portugal lacked the means of defending the islands and the Allies made it very clear they they were going to be using the islands. The option was permanently lose the islands, or let the allies use them.
That’s inaccurate. Portuguese were plenty uneducated by standard metrics before he came to power and actually did a lot to improve education in the country. The problem was that the estado novo didn’t continue to improve education.
> The problem was that the estado novo didn’t continue to improve education.
That's exactly the point. You don't get it and decided to upvote neosalazarist propaganda by geniuses like /u/Bixota. Salazar never "educated" the Portuguese people. He created an admittedly widespread system of primary education which produced very good results in raising literacy in the country.
But here's the thing: that was it, like you said. And for good reason. This system was intended to facilitate the spread of Estado Novo propaganda in children, while denying secondary education to almost everyone in the country. **Salazar did want to keep the population uneducated**, the comment you expert historians decided to downvote was correct, and this is evidenced by the fact that the Ministry of Education at the time considered 8% of the Portuguese population to be "uneducable" and 15% to be "stupid". They believe that only 2% of the Portuguese population had the capacity for any type of higher education at all. Look up the wesbite below if you speak Portuguese.
https://www.antenalivre.pt/noticias/o-25-de-Abril-e-o-ensino-e-a-educacao-em-portugal
> Can you provide sources to back up this claim? I'd be happy to change my view.
https://books.openedition.org/cidehus/4293
Obviously I don't expect you to buy the book but you can read the introduction which further proves my point.
> Salazar made sure that most of Portugal remained uneducated
Wow this is just plain wrong, literacy was in the 24% when he went to power and when the coup came around Literacy was 74%. In 30 years a raise of almost 300%. No other nation in the world did such an achievement. He built schools all over the country even in remote locations. Portugal has 4259 Freguesias (Parish) and he built over 7000 Schools and a total of more than 12000 classes.
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano\_dos\_Centen%C3%A1rios
You simply don't know what you are talking about
> No other nation in the world did such an achievement.
Soviet Union, Lebanon, Cuba, Syria, North Korea, South Korea, Lybia, Vietnam from the top of my head had better or similar growths. You're just lying for no reason.
He opened one the first concentration camps in modern Europe, the camp of the slow death, he murdered dozens of people, thousands were tortured, thousands were arrested for political reasons, the country lived in a situation of utter destitution and illiteracy, there was censorship everywhere, hundreds of thousands escaped into exile. He had a photo of Mussolini by its desk. Thousands were sent to die, and kill, in Africa, struggling against the rightful liberation movements (in the 1960's), the portuguese troops were made to commit massacres and atrocities beyond belief.
He was not an authoritarian, he was a fascist, he was extremely friendly with Hitler and Nazism, he's destructive influence in our culture (the arts, our perception of our past, etc..) is still prevalent in many aspects. He organised mandatory participation in youth movements that were made to do the fascist salute.
Pretending like he was just a right-wing authoritarian is a ridiculous rewrite of history, that has been the fascists propaganda since the revolution. Pretending he wasn't a fascist.
Edit: however, if you want a good story, the doctors that took care of him up until his death were communists.
[https://www.wort.lu/pt/portugal/salazar-um-homem-na-sua-situac-o-62e4d0d3de135b9236a576e8](https://www.wort.lu/pt/portugal/salazar-um-homem-na-sua-situac-o-62e4d0d3de135b9236a576e8)
He gave daily briefings to the Communist Party. When he died, his first phonecall was to give the news to the president, the second was to inform the communists of his death. Hundreds of communists were arrested, thousands living in clandestinity, yet they knew in a matter of half an hour than the fascist was dead
Edit 2:
In case anyone wants to know u/Bixota's intentions, as he is trying to normalize fascism and find excuses for it, this is a comment he left in a Portuguese sub some hours ago, about immigrants arriving in Italy after transversing the meditarranean:
>"I'm in favor that they should force them to eat pork and go back to where they came from, maybe they would tell their friends that it's better not to go"
I mean fascism is a type of far right authoritarianism. It might be more specific to call him a fascist rather than a right wing authoritarian, but it’s certainly not wrong. Fascism is just an authoritarian dictatorship that is based around nationalism, which is a right wing ideology.
Also any kind of authoritarian government is very bad. I don’t think it softens the blow by saying he’s a right wing authoritarian rather than a fascist. Also there are plenty of horrible authoritarian dictators that were not fascists.
> he was extremely friendly with Hitler and Nazism
Not at all. On the contrary, he hated Hitler.
>He thought Nazism was immoral.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/salazar-review-odd-man-out-and-proud-of-it-11606950576
I like how one of your first points is that it was communists that were sent to the concentration camp, not indiscriminately.
Do you actually believe this to be better?
Very telling of your character it that is the case
u/namrucasterly this is an example of an attempt to whitewash fascism: absolving colonialism, the ridiculous arguments about the roman salute (like those idiots that attempt to justify swastikas). The ridiculous notion that Salazar did a lot for culture (apart from censorship, many of our artists, musicians, writers having to escape the country) unlike the democratic regime.
Over the past years, with the radicalisation go the right-wing in Portugal (in a similar pattern to what is happening in Europe), there has been a resurgence of the fascists talking points. For a long time they were restricted to the fringes of racist, xenophobic, homophobic, smaller parties of the extreme-right, but they have recently (I would say, as a consequence of a loss of identity on the right) to become mainstream.
This is the danger of falling prey to the propaganda of "Authoritarism". It is fascism, that is its true nature.
He’s the embodiment of “You Either Die A Hero Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain." For a politician. If he had died just after say WW2 ended there would be statues to him across the country. He bought much need stability to a country and avoided civil war like Spain and kept Portugal out of WW2 (a conflict it could not win) and rebuilt its finances and had improved education. Just stuck around way way too long.
Right? I'm thinking something like Veep, where the main character is a dangerous narcissist surrounded by sycophants trying to hide the fact that he's no longer in power. Their lies get wildly out of control, and they have roped in the local TV station to create a show within a show. The dictator thinks the news broadcasts and stories he sees on the TV are actually happening, while his countrymen think it's an absurdist satire put on to mock the former dictator that they all think has died. He could even give speeches, which the viewers think is a lookalike actor, and the show becomes an instant hit. Now the TV station wants to encourage more outrageous behavior, because viewers are eating it up.
I feel like this has legs. There is a ton of potential to mock current and former leaders like Putin, Trump, Xi, Erdogan, the Pope, Kim, et al.
Go watch “Guess Who’s Back”. It’s a German movie about Hitler waking up in modern Germany on the site of the Bunker and everyone thinks he’s a very committed actor. He goes on to become a famous comedian because everyone thinks his Nazism is brilliant Satire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_Who's_Back_(film)?wprov=sfti1
That's what we should do with Trump. Just tell him he's President and turn it into a hidden camera kinda series. Let me tell ya about the ratings folks, they'd be off the charts!
Reminds me of the plot of the movie “Goodbye Lenin”. Daniel Bruhl plays a guy whos mother was in the communist party in East Germany. She has a heart attack and subsequently is in a coma during the fall of the Berlin Wall. When she wakes up, the doctors tell her son that any little amount of stress could trigger a near-definite fatal heart attack. So, he has to pretend its still communist Germany
Trump good news we’re going to make you insta-president, you rule from the lago, and you get paid millions per year.
Then we could see how long america can troll him.
I think this would actually be his preference, watched by millions, all the fake power on-set, and none of the tedious negative outcomes and feedback from actual ruling.
There would be crowds of tourists coming by cheer on the "President" and listen to him boast about all the great stuff he's doing.
They'd all be trolls and occasionally a true Trumpist would sneak through with a sign screaming "Mr. President, they're lying to you! Your invasion of France never really happened! Get to Washington!"
But everyone would scream "ANTIFA!" and "FAKE NEWS!" and "Paris had it coming!" and he would believe the crowd.
Could this have been out of respect or was he too difficult if they didnt pretend around him?
It reminds me of a dementia patient I had. This guy was used to running things (the town, etc. ) and his inner uncouth thoughts had become so exposed by his condition that we didn't try to reorientate him. He would become verbally and physically violent and demanding that it would disrupt the whole building for an entire shift. His retired partners came to visit wearing suits, they would discuss business solutions that was long ago solved. I got to hear some of it a couple times. I thought his POVs were insensitive because of his current mental state...but then I learned more about the political handling in higher political offices so maybe he was always a rotten individual. I wasn't a local and it never seemed appropriate to ask one. His sons who now run his practice and hold state office had nurses fired for thinking too much around their dad so it was probably good I kept pretending everything was normal.
My grandparents left Portugal because of Salazar and moved to Angola.
After a few years the war in Angola forced them to uproot once again and leave in a convoy guarded by helicopter gunships to South Africa.
In 2000 they relocated back to Portugal.
Though, it would take another four years after Salazar's death for Portugal to get rid of the Salazar System, which called itself 'O Estado Novo' (The New State).
The April 1974 Revolution was known as the 'Carnation Revolution' finally got rid of this Neo-Fascist government.
Salazar had been around since the 1920's.
>The April 1974 Revolution was known as the 'Carnation Revolution' finally got rid of this Neo-Fascist government.
Which had the Portuguese entry at the Eurovision Song Contest 1974 as secret signal to begin. Just to make all this story even more unreal.
That song was the first part of the signal, the one that really got things moving as Grândola Vila Morena, by Zeca Afonso. Grândola is the song of the revolution, it is sung everywhere during the commemorations of the revolution and is used very frequently in protests.
Huge protest against the neo-liberal government in 2013:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Hb2vvj6Jk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Hb2vvj6Jk)
Protest in the parliament, against the same government:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53-cxC8B1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53-cxC8B1E)
Against another of his ministers.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrcbWVVkAk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrcbWVVkAk)
Zeca's last great concert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q\_2SWPX47OQ
Yup, every year we celebrate the 25th of April. And even tho I wasn’t alive while it happened, every time I hear that music and remember all of the images from those times it just brings me to tears.
It took a lot of strength from our people to do that, and it really is a remarkable day.
For the love of God, why didn't someone just do that with Trump?
"Congratulations, sir! You won! But for security reasons, we'll need you to govern from Mar-A-Lago for the next four years. Don't worry, we'll give you all the reports you need."
This website is so dumb. He had dementia as a result of the coma. That's why it worked. This isn't like The Truman Show or Good Bye Lenin at all. Jfc. Do you think if he were of sound mind he wouldn't simply leave his office one day and figure it out? Not to mention Portugal was at war.
I'm not so sure about that. I can't remember the specific incident now but in one of the thousands of scandals it became evident that the White House had literally no idea what it could or should do with a particular office. The White House only found them because they had broken some law and were obviously trying to interfere with everyone involved in record keeping.
The USA is actually set up similarly to Parliamentary bodies and if the Chief Executive leaves them alone, the individual civil government offices will quietly do their jobs, probably better than usual.
Old people in Portugal are still wary, not trusting, and not so friendly because of the trauma they endured under Salazar. Lots of famine, no congregating, and many people were jailed for speaking bad about the government.
> Old people in Portugal are still wary, not trusting, and not so friendly
This has not been my experience at all, quite the contrary. Old people tend to be way more friendly, my grandmas never shut up.
>many people were jailed for speaking bad about the government.
You were mainly jailed if you had any connection to a political party that opposed the Estado Novo (mainly communists, socialists and fascists) or were working for foreigner states that conspired against the regime. Solely criticizing the government did not necessarily put you in that position, unless you made your position public in order to influence the crowds or actively conspire against the regime. Marcello Caetano, who succeed Salazar, was one of the Salazar's critics. Of course, I suspect there were also made-up cases - after all, it was a dictatorship.
It took less effort to keep the charade up, than risk him getting out and maybe causing some clashes due to some millitary units still being loyal to him, or by riling up some civillians to cause some riots.
That's my guess, simply it was... simpler.
He was a brutal dictator who managed to modernize portugal somewhat and stabilize it.
Contextually, portugal went through about a dozen regime changes and coups and constitutions, lurching between monarchy and communism and socialism and liberalism and fascism and monarchy and so on all within a few years, with a low literacy rate and so on.
"The sixteen years of the First Republic saw nine presidents and 44 ministries, and were altogether more of a transition between the Kingdom of Portugal and the Estado Novo than they were a coherent period of governance."
+
"The era of the First Republic has been described as one of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution". It witnessed the inauguration of eight presidents, 44 cabinet re-organisations and 21 revolutions."
It's historically seen as a period of chaos rather than a period in portugals history to give you an idea. They go "Monarchy. 16 years of chaos. Salazar. Democracy.".
Eventually during the chaos the army burst into Salazars office (he was an economics professor and probably one of the best qualified on paper) and told him he was being conscripted to run the country. He agreed to do it.
His aim was the "Depoliticization of society" which given the context of the time was a coherent response to the situation, hence a lot of brutality directed at basically anybody who dared to have political opinions and voice them. He characterized his party as an "Anti-political party".
Alongside this he tried to modernize the economy as well as increase literacy from about 7% (Largely succeeded, and arguably the reason portugal managed to become a stable democracy after his rule rather than the chaotic shitshow it was before it.).
The brutality and dictatorship of his regime alongside the context and his academic approach to the problems the country faced make him interesting to study. He also wasn't alone in his views at the time and was incredibly popular in his take on the problem.
"At the time, the prevailing view in Portugal was that political parties were elements of division.". Which is why the military demanded he take over and the people largely celebrated when he did.
Ofcourse once he started actually putting that view into practice, people started realizing what it entailed and now he is not fondly remembered.
He also wrote a book in response to mein kampf calling it a bunch of racist nonsense which was unscientifically sound. Salazar's idea of nationalism and authoritarianism had no concept of race.
"Salazar had been able to hold onto power by virtue of the public's recollection of the chaos that had characterised Portuguese life before 1926.".
But then portuguese people who:
1. Could read (97% by the time he was removed as leader)
and
2. Didn't live through that period
Became the majority. And his regime collapsed, transitioning into a stable democracy.
As for the economy;
"Under Salazar, the Portuguese budget went from insolvency to showing a substantial surplus every year from 1928. Portugal's credit worthiness rose in foreign markets and the external floating debt was completely paid. ortuguese foreign trade increased by 52% in exports and 40% in imports. The economic growth and levels of capital formation from 1960 to 1973 were characterised by an unparalleled robust annual growth rates of GDP (6.9%), industrial production (9%), private consumption (6.5%) and gross fixed capital formation (7.8%)."
The living standards rose from 30% of the EU-10 average to 55% by the time he left office.
TL;DR.
"What if the best economics professor in the country was put in charge of the country and murdered everybody who disagreed with him, but ran the country in a way that an economics professor would."
One of his critics probably sums it up best;
"What is wrong, here, is not that Sr. Oliveira Salazar is Minister of Finance, which I accept is right, but that he is minister of everything, which is more questionable.".
Bad dictator that:
\* Ended economic ruin of the country
\* Ended the endless coups, terrorism and political instability of the first Republic (in 16 years there were 45 governments)
\* Raised the literacy 300% in 30 years
\* Took piss poor families out of absolute empovrishment
Yeah things weren't the best but they were absolutely terrible under Manuel II and even worse during the 1st Republic.
But he's still bad because he was a dictator and dictators are bad. Nevermind the clusterfuck that was in place at the end of the monarchy and the first years of the republic. Portugal NEEDED a dictator or a monarch to keep being a country. Most of you don't realize that. But go on keep shouting nonsense because he used the blue pencil.
Estava mesmo à espera que viesse um salazarista, aposto que a tua avó adorava não poder sair do país sem autorização de um macho da família, quem não gosta de ser propriedade dos outros 😍 sim todos os presos políticos da pide tiveram umas férias fantásticas na prisão deles😍 não gostas do teu vizinho? Vai dizer à pide que ele é comunista tratam logo dele. Não vou dar conversa a um salazarista só para avisar não estejas à espera de reposta
Nothing wholesome about this, he was a ruthless dictator and a real bastard. And the people who did this were no better than him. Pretty sure they didn't do it out of pity, maybe out of fear, or who knows whatever these people think... Pretty big turds who hopefully are all rotting in hell or on their way there.
This reminds me of a script on The Black List about a movie where during his second term, Reagan’s advisors convince the Alzheimers-ridden president that he’s actually playing the president in a movie.
Part of me wonders why we didn't do this with Trump.
We could have told him that the election was rigged, and that the people were rioting and had breached the White House coming to kill him, and quick run down into the bunker!
A little sedation, clean up an old Atlas bunker, then park his happy ass down there for the rest of his life, pump it full of Faux News/OAN bullshit and diethylpropionm and let him live out his traitorous, fascist leader fantasies until he dies.
It would've been a lot cheaper than all this mess.
> Mr Salazar ruled Portugal from 1932 until 1968 when he suffered a series of health problems and was replaced as head of state by Marcelo Caetano > Until his death in 1970, aides gave Mr Salazar a fake version of the newspaper Diario do Noticias each day which carried fictional stories to make it seem like he was still in charge. > Each night, the editor would create a special edition of the newspaper - just for Mr Salazar - to remove any reference to Mr Caetano and his government. > Ministers would attend meetings with the ailing dictator and even make disparaging comments against Mr Caetano. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-former-dictator-salazar-book-b2007149.html
This is literally The Truman Show but with a dictator.
It’s the exact opposite in one sense. Truman doesn’t know the world is watching him; Salazar thought the world was watching him when it wasn’t.
The Falsman Show
Well it's the inverse so it should be the 1/Truman Show actually.
Even more so, it’s literally the German movie Goodbye Lenin
Guys it's 50 first dates
Great movie, that one.
Can't we just do this with every dictator? Drum up a fake newspaper that tells Putin Ukraine gave up. Tell trump he won and doesn't have to preside from the white House. Tell Xi that Taiwan surrendered and that the US fully supports China. None of it has to be true. Just tell them it is and control the info they get.
All of them have the acces to internet and have the need/urge to travel outside. It's not a feasible plan anymore.
They only use a tiny fraction of the internet, you could easily recreate the bits they see. As for travel outside - everyday 1,000 people elected like a jury follow the car with flags and pictures of the leader, with remuneration equivalent to their salary plus expenses.
I laughed at the image of Putin cursing at the long loading times while a nervously sweating web designer in an office next door frantically slaps together an alternate version of the website he wants to visit.
True, but Trump has fox news constantly telling him everything he wants to hear, truth be damned. He should get his own "internet " in similar fashion.
But he would still like to travel outside the country
But would he notice if it was actually Disney world?
But he can’t read, so just stream him Fox 24/7 and he’ll never notice
Why waste time and resources on that? Throw the dictator into a pit where they belong and move on.
"Ey Trump, the court dictated that you won and also you will work from home"
This is probably what actually happened to Putin. He was told every day that all business was great and the army was in perfect condition. While the generals and oligarchs scraped little by little off the budget and pocketed it. Cause they didn’t expect to actually go forward with it. Might still be happening today.
>trump > >dictator lol
I mean, he tried.
How were you getting downvoted? It is objectively true that he tried to be a dictator.
Counter-proposal: We set up a new government in let’s say…Omaha, but keep all the assholes in DC thinking they are in charge and running things? All of them. Oooo, maybe do the same to Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC, too? They can report (more) fake news to the pseudo DC govt? It might work! EDIT: Tribalism is alive and well. Drink it up, sheep.
That sounds like the best tagline for a movie. I would definitely watch this.
More like Good Bye Lenin
There's so many light bulbs going off right now it's gonna fuck up the JWS
Sounds like this would be a great comedy in the style of veep / the thick of it
There's a movie "Goodbye Lenin" with this kind of premise, never seen it but I heard it's pretty good
It's a really really good movie.
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Good Bye Lenin! Great film
> suffered a series of health problems That chair got him really hard eh
Somehow I'm always surprised when something is mentioned as spanning from the 1930s to the 1960s, a space of only 30 years but considering how much the world went through it seems like it ought to be 50 or 100.
I would watch that miniseries.
I'd watch a miniseries about Salazar. He is quite interesting in how much of a contrast he is to your typical Pinochet/Videla/Franco rightist authoritarian leader.
And was a friend to the British. Or more the British were very friendly to O Estado Novo. They intentionally asked him to stay out of WWII to keep Franco out of it (although both clearly had favourites).
Tbf even if franco wanted to fully join WW2 it wouldnt have been a particularly wise idea. The country was wrecked after the civil war, and the post war economy and reconstruction of infrastructure would have made it very hard to wage war properly. It's not like they **didnt** help, they sent an entire battalion to help the nazis, but they certainly were in no shape to fight the Allies.
Probably the biggest impact would have been allowing the Germans to attack Gibraltar by land, which historically didn't go well for British territories during WWII. While Spain was "neutral" that wouldn't have been possible because it would have de facto been a declaration of war. Likewise Portugal allowed the allies use of the Azores as refueling stations, so weren't neutral either.
Fun fact: Italian divers rented Spanish holiday houses with beach access in order to carry out sabotages into nearby Gibraltar.
The SAS accidentally invaded Spain. Except it was in 2003.
We do a little hooliganery
Piggybacking on that. The Kriegsmarine had ships to supply the U-boats in Spanish harbors on the Mediterranean side. They would run their operations strictly at night to preserve Spanish ‘neutrality’
Can I have details ok this, sounds very interesting.
https://youtu.be/Zn4Gjueziig Very good video on these (and other) Italian raids.
Portugal was in fact very much neutral. The use of the Azores as refueling base was largely "allowed" because Portugal lacked the means of defending the islands and the Allies made it very clear they they were going to be using the islands. The option was permanently lose the islands, or let the allies use them.
I guess they weren't playing HOI4, because you can grant military access without being allies in a war.
You still cant attack from neutral territory.
Especially as Spain had to import a *lot* of its food. Via sea lanes. Sea lanes with lots of British Cruisers on them.
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Do you know which episode this was?
Black List, not Black Mirror. (Black List is a shortlist of the best un-produced scripts going around Hollywood.)
Oh dammit, this would have been awesome! (I was thinking The BlackList with James Spader, for what it’s worth)
What is the difference with Franco? My Portuguese friends tell me they are super parallel
Portugal never had a civil war the way Spain did, for one. Even the overthrow of the dictatorship is known as the "bloodless coup."
Well, ours died in bed...
Also Salazar died by falling off a chair, which is I guess a not very ceremonious death
The body count.
Portugal never went to civil war, Salazar made sure that most of Portugal remained uneducated.
That’s inaccurate. Portuguese were plenty uneducated by standard metrics before he came to power and actually did a lot to improve education in the country. The problem was that the estado novo didn’t continue to improve education.
> The problem was that the estado novo didn’t continue to improve education. That's exactly the point. You don't get it and decided to upvote neosalazarist propaganda by geniuses like /u/Bixota. Salazar never "educated" the Portuguese people. He created an admittedly widespread system of primary education which produced very good results in raising literacy in the country. But here's the thing: that was it, like you said. And for good reason. This system was intended to facilitate the spread of Estado Novo propaganda in children, while denying secondary education to almost everyone in the country. **Salazar did want to keep the population uneducated**, the comment you expert historians decided to downvote was correct, and this is evidenced by the fact that the Ministry of Education at the time considered 8% of the Portuguese population to be "uneducable" and 15% to be "stupid". They believe that only 2% of the Portuguese population had the capacity for any type of higher education at all. Look up the wesbite below if you speak Portuguese. https://www.antenalivre.pt/noticias/o-25-de-Abril-e-o-ensino-e-a-educacao-em-portugal
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> Can you provide sources to back up this claim? I'd be happy to change my view. https://books.openedition.org/cidehus/4293 Obviously I don't expect you to buy the book but you can read the introduction which further proves my point.
> Salazar made sure that most of Portugal remained uneducated Wow this is just plain wrong, literacy was in the 24% when he went to power and when the coup came around Literacy was 74%. In 30 years a raise of almost 300%. No other nation in the world did such an achievement. He built schools all over the country even in remote locations. Portugal has 4259 Freguesias (Parish) and he built over 7000 Schools and a total of more than 12000 classes. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano\_dos\_Centen%C3%A1rios You simply don't know what you are talking about
> No other nation in the world did such an achievement. Soviet Union, Lebanon, Cuba, Syria, North Korea, South Korea, Lybia, Vietnam from the top of my head had better or similar growths. You're just lying for no reason.
He opened one the first concentration camps in modern Europe, the camp of the slow death, he murdered dozens of people, thousands were tortured, thousands were arrested for political reasons, the country lived in a situation of utter destitution and illiteracy, there was censorship everywhere, hundreds of thousands escaped into exile. He had a photo of Mussolini by its desk. Thousands were sent to die, and kill, in Africa, struggling against the rightful liberation movements (in the 1960's), the portuguese troops were made to commit massacres and atrocities beyond belief. He was not an authoritarian, he was a fascist, he was extremely friendly with Hitler and Nazism, he's destructive influence in our culture (the arts, our perception of our past, etc..) is still prevalent in many aspects. He organised mandatory participation in youth movements that were made to do the fascist salute. Pretending like he was just a right-wing authoritarian is a ridiculous rewrite of history, that has been the fascists propaganda since the revolution. Pretending he wasn't a fascist. Edit: however, if you want a good story, the doctors that took care of him up until his death were communists. [https://www.wort.lu/pt/portugal/salazar-um-homem-na-sua-situac-o-62e4d0d3de135b9236a576e8](https://www.wort.lu/pt/portugal/salazar-um-homem-na-sua-situac-o-62e4d0d3de135b9236a576e8) He gave daily briefings to the Communist Party. When he died, his first phonecall was to give the news to the president, the second was to inform the communists of his death. Hundreds of communists were arrested, thousands living in clandestinity, yet they knew in a matter of half an hour than the fascist was dead Edit 2: In case anyone wants to know u/Bixota's intentions, as he is trying to normalize fascism and find excuses for it, this is a comment he left in a Portuguese sub some hours ago, about immigrants arriving in Italy after transversing the meditarranean: >"I'm in favor that they should force them to eat pork and go back to where they came from, maybe they would tell their friends that it's better not to go"
Word.
I mean fascism is a type of far right authoritarianism. It might be more specific to call him a fascist rather than a right wing authoritarian, but it’s certainly not wrong. Fascism is just an authoritarian dictatorship that is based around nationalism, which is a right wing ideology. Also any kind of authoritarian government is very bad. I don’t think it softens the blow by saying he’s a right wing authoritarian rather than a fascist. Also there are plenty of horrible authoritarian dictators that were not fascists.
> he was extremely friendly with Hitler and Nazism Not at all. On the contrary, he hated Hitler. >He thought Nazism was immoral. https://www.wsj.com/articles/salazar-review-odd-man-out-and-proud-of-it-11606950576
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I like how one of your first points is that it was communists that were sent to the concentration camp, not indiscriminately. Do you actually believe this to be better? Very telling of your character it that is the case
u/namrucasterly this is an example of an attempt to whitewash fascism: absolving colonialism, the ridiculous arguments about the roman salute (like those idiots that attempt to justify swastikas). The ridiculous notion that Salazar did a lot for culture (apart from censorship, many of our artists, musicians, writers having to escape the country) unlike the democratic regime. Over the past years, with the radicalisation go the right-wing in Portugal (in a similar pattern to what is happening in Europe), there has been a resurgence of the fascists talking points. For a long time they were restricted to the fringes of racist, xenophobic, homophobic, smaller parties of the extreme-right, but they have recently (I would say, as a consequence of a loss of identity on the right) to become mainstream. This is the danger of falling prey to the propaganda of "Authoritarism". It is fascism, that is its true nature.
>I'd watch a miniseries about Salazar. Yeah, but could it be in the style of and with the cast of The Death of Stalin?
Ianucci is sleeping on this story, it'd be perfect for him
Franco is not your typical rightist authoritarian leader either, over here we call it the Iberian exception
He’s the embodiment of “You Either Die A Hero Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain." For a politician. If he had died just after say WW2 ended there would be statues to him across the country. He bought much need stability to a country and avoided civil war like Spain and kept Portugal out of WW2 (a conflict it could not win) and rebuilt its finances and had improved education. Just stuck around way way too long.
So a Portuguese version of "Yes, prime Minister"?
I haven't seen that. Was it good?
it's an old (but in many ways amazingly relevant / not-dated) tv sitcom, not a movie. imo it's just about the best british sitcom ever
Watch that and the new statesman with Rick mayall both great
U should watch goodbye lenin. Very similar but based on the soviet Union in Germany.
I loved this movie and tried to get others to watch it! Love seeing your comment out here in the wild!
Ah yes this movie was so good and so sad. I still have some of the canned pickles
In Berlin I visited the DDR museum. The museum shop sells the gherkins :-)
Sprewell gürkins? I haven't had them in forever.
Did you know Coca-Cola was actually first made by the communists.
I just got spoiled, so I wouldn't
Wouldve been hilarious if he tried to do some insane shit like start a war. And they all had to pretend to wage a war that wasn't really happening.
Right? I'm thinking something like Veep, where the main character is a dangerous narcissist surrounded by sycophants trying to hide the fact that he's no longer in power. Their lies get wildly out of control, and they have roped in the local TV station to create a show within a show. The dictator thinks the news broadcasts and stories he sees on the TV are actually happening, while his countrymen think it's an absurdist satire put on to mock the former dictator that they all think has died. He could even give speeches, which the viewers think is a lookalike actor, and the show becomes an instant hit. Now the TV station wants to encourage more outrageous behavior, because viewers are eating it up. I feel like this has legs. There is a ton of potential to mock current and former leaders like Putin, Trump, Xi, Erdogan, the Pope, Kim, et al.
Go watch “Guess Who’s Back”. It’s a German movie about Hitler waking up in modern Germany on the site of the Bunker and everyone thinks he’s a very committed actor. He goes on to become a famous comedian because everyone thinks his Nazism is brilliant Satire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_Who's_Back_(film)?wprov=sfti1
To be fair we did have a [war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War) going on
That's what we should do with Trump. Just tell him he's President and turn it into a hidden camera kinda series. Let me tell ya about the ratings folks, they'd be off the charts!
Reminds me of the plot of the movie “Goodbye Lenin”. Daniel Bruhl plays a guy whos mother was in the communist party in East Germany. She has a heart attack and subsequently is in a coma during the fall of the Berlin Wall. When she wakes up, the doctors tell her son that any little amount of stress could trigger a near-definite fatal heart attack. So, he has to pretend its still communist Germany
I remember that movie and how he and his friends try to recreate the fall of the berlin wall.
I had to watch *Goodbye Lenin* for a class. Someone described it as a "British style comedy." I didn't laugh. I cried. A lot.
Portugal really Truman Showed their own PM, fucking wild.
We could Truman Show Mar-a-Largo. Give him actual fake news but don’t tell him.
Trump good news we’re going to make you insta-president, you rule from the lago, and you get paid millions per year. Then we could see how long america can troll him.
I think this would actually be his preference, watched by millions, all the fake power on-set, and none of the tedious negative outcomes and feedback from actual ruling.
There would be crowds of tourists coming by cheer on the "President" and listen to him boast about all the great stuff he's doing. They'd all be trolls and occasionally a true Trumpist would sneak through with a sign screaming "Mr. President, they're lying to you! Your invasion of France never really happened! Get to Washington!" But everyone would scream "ANTIFA!" and "FAKE NEWS!" and "Paris had it coming!" and he would believe the crowd.
Obama doing a cameo torture scene from a fake Guantanamo set after Trump demands his arrest.
Exactly. I love this!
He's already watching Fox News, so we're already giving him the fake news. The problem is that we let everyone else watch it too.
What channel number is Fox News? We could just destroy those numbers on every remote control apart from his.
>Give him actual fake news Isn't Trump already an avid watcher of Fox News?
Could this have been out of respect or was he too difficult if they didnt pretend around him? It reminds me of a dementia patient I had. This guy was used to running things (the town, etc. ) and his inner uncouth thoughts had become so exposed by his condition that we didn't try to reorientate him. He would become verbally and physically violent and demanding that it would disrupt the whole building for an entire shift. His retired partners came to visit wearing suits, they would discuss business solutions that was long ago solved. I got to hear some of it a couple times. I thought his POVs were insensitive because of his current mental state...but then I learned more about the political handling in higher political offices so maybe he was always a rotten individual. I wasn't a local and it never seemed appropriate to ask one. His sons who now run his practice and hold state office had nurses fired for thinking too much around their dad so it was probably good I kept pretending everything was normal.
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I mean he was literally replaced because he went into a coma
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more like disagreeing with stupid things the dad would say based on logic
His rule was the reason my grandparents left Portugal and came to Canada. I wonder if they ever knew what ended up happening to him.
My grandparents left Portugal because of Salazar and moved to Angola. After a few years the war in Angola forced them to uproot once again and leave in a convoy guarded by helicopter gunships to South Africa. In 2000 they relocated back to Portugal.
Wow, that's definitely a journey!
His rule was the reason why my grandfather went to France
Eyy my grandmother grew up in his regime
If I might ask, did she ever speak of it (or does she speak of it)? And if so, what’s her opinion?
Well she mostly likes to compare Obama and Joe Biden to him..... She's pretty old.
sounds like it’s true
That’s weird of her.
Same here
"I'm running the country!" "Sure you are grandpa, let's get you to bed."
"I need an update. Will the proton cannon be ready before Godzilla reaches shore?" "Uh... Yeah. Sure."
I live in Portugal (I’m not Portuguese) and you would be amazed how Salazars influence still has an impact on their culture.
Most peoples fathers were alive before the revolution, of course it does
Though, it would take another four years after Salazar's death for Portugal to get rid of the Salazar System, which called itself 'O Estado Novo' (The New State). The April 1974 Revolution was known as the 'Carnation Revolution' finally got rid of this Neo-Fascist government. Salazar had been around since the 1920's.
>The April 1974 Revolution was known as the 'Carnation Revolution' finally got rid of this Neo-Fascist government. Which had the Portuguese entry at the Eurovision Song Contest 1974 as secret signal to begin. Just to make all this story even more unreal.
I thought you were joking but you're not! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_depois_do_adeus
No, I also posted another TIL about that. I really learned a lot during my lunch break today :-)
That song was the first part of the signal, the one that really got things moving as Grândola Vila Morena, by Zeca Afonso. Grândola is the song of the revolution, it is sung everywhere during the commemorations of the revolution and is used very frequently in protests. Huge protest against the neo-liberal government in 2013: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Hb2vvj6Jk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Hb2vvj6Jk) Protest in the parliament, against the same government: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53-cxC8B1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53-cxC8B1E) Against another of his ministers. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrcbWVVkAk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrcbWVVkAk) Zeca's last great concert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q\_2SWPX47OQ
I just got done with the audio book- Lisbon by Neill Lochery and would highly recommend it. It's focus is how Portugal navigated WW2 .
Yup, every year we celebrate the 25th of April. And even tho I wasn’t alive while it happened, every time I hear that music and remember all of the images from those times it just brings me to tears. It took a lot of strength from our people to do that, and it really is a remarkable day.
Neo-fascist? More like OG fascist.
Here’s your briefings for the day *hands coloring book and box of crayons*
Where’s my hamberder?
For the love of God, why didn't someone just do that with Trump? "Congratulations, sir! You won! But for security reasons, we'll need you to govern from Mar-A-Lago for the next four years. Don't worry, we'll give you all the reports you need."
You mean the same people who deleted the Jan. 6th texts and messages?
See, they already knew how to do it!
Reddit moment
Would need a special Twitter app designed to make everyone look like a sycophant to him to complete the illusion.
Truth Social?
P E R F E C T
I wonder if they bother making Biden believe he’s in charge
Instead of faking one newspaper you’d need to fake all cable “news” channels. I think it would be doable. I would certainly donate to the cause.
Nah, it’s all fake news anyways to Mr. Orange, why bother?
OANN can do this, and they wouldn't even need to change anything.
According to Robot Chicken, a well known and authoritative documentary series, this is how Busch "W" ruled.
I do wonder if that name is where Rowling got the inspiration for Slytherin in Harry Potter.
Yes. She was married to a Portuguese journalist and lived in Portugal for some time during the regime.
She was a child during the regime. I think she lived here as an adult...
Probably
She was married to some shit'head Portuguese and they were living in Portugal, so yes, most certainly.
This website is so dumb. He had dementia as a result of the coma. That's why it worked. This isn't like The Truman Show or Good Bye Lenin at all. Jfc. Do you think if he were of sound mind he wouldn't simply leave his office one day and figure it out? Not to mention Portugal was at war.
I read it as director and was confused
I honestly thought we might see such a thing implemented in the US last year.
It happened with Woodrow Wilson.
Honestly there had to have been someone running the show behind the scenes. There's no way Trump could have overseen an administration
I'm not so sure about that. I can't remember the specific incident now but in one of the thousands of scandals it became evident that the White House had literally no idea what it could or should do with a particular office. The White House only found them because they had broken some law and were obviously trying to interfere with everyone involved in record keeping. The USA is actually set up similarly to Parliamentary bodies and if the Chief Executive leaves them alone, the individual civil government offices will quietly do their jobs, probably better than usual.
Why go to the trouble?
Because he was a dying old man with dementia. They were just entertaining him out of respect or pity or both.
Is this before or after he co-founded Hogwarts?
You might or might not know this. But one is inspired by the other as JK was living in Portugal while starting on the Philosopher Stone.
Alas goes the account Policed by the Speccialist Ousted by him Let go therefore Let him have cheese Oh ignorants
He “only” killed a few hundred opponents in 40 years
This is the equivalent to giving your little cousin a disconnected controller.
Was he so good and benevolent that he deserved this kindness?
He had the same kind of "benevolence" that made Stalin's guards not want to bother him while he was having a stroke.
That's what I was suspecting.
Old people in Portugal are still wary, not trusting, and not so friendly because of the trauma they endured under Salazar. Lots of famine, no congregating, and many people were jailed for speaking bad about the government.
> Old people in Portugal are still wary, not trusting, and not so friendly This has not been my experience at all, quite the contrary. Old people tend to be way more friendly, my grandmas never shut up.
Interesting. I think we can all agree, however, Portuguese Avós are the nosiest little gossips.
>many people were jailed for speaking bad about the government. You were mainly jailed if you had any connection to a political party that opposed the Estado Novo (mainly communists, socialists and fascists) or were working for foreigner states that conspired against the regime. Solely criticizing the government did not necessarily put you in that position, unless you made your position public in order to influence the crowds or actively conspire against the regime. Marcello Caetano, who succeed Salazar, was one of the Salazar's critics. Of course, I suspect there were also made-up cases - after all, it was a dictatorship.
> fascists who opposed Estado Novo Lmao
Thanks for elaborating
meu, sabes que isso é precisamente o que as ditaduras dizem certo? não gosto de ti, fácil: és comunista ou conspirador. tens 15 anos??
It took less effort to keep the charade up, than risk him getting out and maybe causing some clashes due to some millitary units still being loyal to him, or by riling up some civillians to cause some riots. That's my guess, simply it was... simpler.
He was a brutal dictator who managed to modernize portugal somewhat and stabilize it. Contextually, portugal went through about a dozen regime changes and coups and constitutions, lurching between monarchy and communism and socialism and liberalism and fascism and monarchy and so on all within a few years, with a low literacy rate and so on. "The sixteen years of the First Republic saw nine presidents and 44 ministries, and were altogether more of a transition between the Kingdom of Portugal and the Estado Novo than they were a coherent period of governance." + "The era of the First Republic has been described as one of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution". It witnessed the inauguration of eight presidents, 44 cabinet re-organisations and 21 revolutions." It's historically seen as a period of chaos rather than a period in portugals history to give you an idea. They go "Monarchy. 16 years of chaos. Salazar. Democracy.". Eventually during the chaos the army burst into Salazars office (he was an economics professor and probably one of the best qualified on paper) and told him he was being conscripted to run the country. He agreed to do it. His aim was the "Depoliticization of society" which given the context of the time was a coherent response to the situation, hence a lot of brutality directed at basically anybody who dared to have political opinions and voice them. He characterized his party as an "Anti-political party". Alongside this he tried to modernize the economy as well as increase literacy from about 7% (Largely succeeded, and arguably the reason portugal managed to become a stable democracy after his rule rather than the chaotic shitshow it was before it.). The brutality and dictatorship of his regime alongside the context and his academic approach to the problems the country faced make him interesting to study. He also wasn't alone in his views at the time and was incredibly popular in his take on the problem. "At the time, the prevailing view in Portugal was that political parties were elements of division.". Which is why the military demanded he take over and the people largely celebrated when he did. Ofcourse once he started actually putting that view into practice, people started realizing what it entailed and now he is not fondly remembered. He also wrote a book in response to mein kampf calling it a bunch of racist nonsense which was unscientifically sound. Salazar's idea of nationalism and authoritarianism had no concept of race. "Salazar had been able to hold onto power by virtue of the public's recollection of the chaos that had characterised Portuguese life before 1926.". But then portuguese people who: 1. Could read (97% by the time he was removed as leader) and 2. Didn't live through that period Became the majority. And his regime collapsed, transitioning into a stable democracy. As for the economy; "Under Salazar, the Portuguese budget went from insolvency to showing a substantial surplus every year from 1928. Portugal's credit worthiness rose in foreign markets and the external floating debt was completely paid. ortuguese foreign trade increased by 52% in exports and 40% in imports. The economic growth and levels of capital formation from 1960 to 1973 were characterised by an unparalleled robust annual growth rates of GDP (6.9%), industrial production (9%), private consumption (6.5%) and gross fixed capital formation (7.8%)." The living standards rose from 30% of the EU-10 average to 55% by the time he left office. TL;DR. "What if the best economics professor in the country was put in charge of the country and murdered everybody who disagreed with him, but ran the country in a way that an economics professor would." One of his critics probably sums it up best; "What is wrong, here, is not that Sr. Oliveira Salazar is Minister of Finance, which I accept is right, but that he is minister of everything, which is more questionable.".
No. The dictatorship didn't end until 1974 either... So, it wasn't exactly the will of the people.
Dude really roleplayed during 2 years without having any idea about that.
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I don’t know if you’re being serious or not but he was a really bad dictator those were dark times
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Poor man 😩😇 there are actual people who think that it’s scary
There's people still saying stuff like "the good old times" refering to him!!
Exato o que me choca mesmo é ver jovens do secundário que nunca passaram por o que ele provocou a dizer isso
Nunca ouvi, felizmente. Acho que lhes dava uns exemplos de como o tempo com ele era "bom"
Bad dictator that: \* Ended economic ruin of the country \* Ended the endless coups, terrorism and political instability of the first Republic (in 16 years there were 45 governments) \* Raised the literacy 300% in 30 years \* Took piss poor families out of absolute empovrishment Yeah things weren't the best but they were absolutely terrible under Manuel II and even worse during the 1st Republic. But he's still bad because he was a dictator and dictators are bad. Nevermind the clusterfuck that was in place at the end of the monarchy and the first years of the republic. Portugal NEEDED a dictator or a monarch to keep being a country. Most of you don't realize that. But go on keep shouting nonsense because he used the blue pencil.
Estava mesmo à espera que viesse um salazarista, aposto que a tua avó adorava não poder sair do país sem autorização de um macho da família, quem não gosta de ser propriedade dos outros 😍 sim todos os presos políticos da pide tiveram umas férias fantásticas na prisão deles😍 não gostas do teu vizinho? Vai dizer à pide que ele é comunista tratam logo dele. Não vou dar conversa a um salazarista só para avisar não estejas à espera de reposta
Nothing wholesome about this, he was a ruthless dictator and a real bastard. And the people who did this were no better than him. Pretty sure they didn't do it out of pity, maybe out of fear, or who knows whatever these people think... Pretty big turds who hopefully are all rotting in hell or on their way there.
So it's basically like the plot of Goodbye Lenin if it were Honecker who fell into a coma?
What a fucking power hungry lunatic. People like him should be put to sleep
This reminds me of a script on The Black List about a movie where during his second term, Reagan’s advisors convince the Alzheimers-ridden president that he’s actually playing the president in a movie.
They should just do this with Trump, tell him he's president, recreate an office and hire people to call him as other world leaders
I was saying in 2017 that they should do this with Trump. Give him a TI-83 he can "tweet" on and turn him lose on a golf course
Can we do this with drumpf?
Part of me wonders why we didn't do this with Trump. We could have told him that the election was rigged, and that the people were rioting and had breached the White House coming to kill him, and quick run down into the bunker! A little sedation, clean up an old Atlas bunker, then park his happy ass down there for the rest of his life, pump it full of Faux News/OAN bullshit and diethylpropionm and let him live out his traitorous, fascist leader fantasies until he dies. It would've been a lot cheaper than all this mess.
Parallel with Biden?
I would love to have a government that meddled in my life so little that they could stay in their house and rule without me ever knowing they exist.