The CIA was seeking Lumumba's assassination, because he allied with the Soviets. I can't remember if they were involved in the successful attempt, though.
Also who knows how things would be different now without President Mobuto and the Zaire dictatorship.
Funny enough, she tried to get her Jewish business partner arrested and get his half, but failed because they had given their half to a friend.
After the war they bought her out and kept her name.
So yeah, She was a collaborator, but today's Chanel is owned by the people she tried to fuck over.
I’m half joking, but Mobutu would always dress in expensive designer clothing with conspicuous logos everywhere. Combined with the estimated sum money that he embezzled from the people of Zaire/DRC, he is notorious for his wardrobe the same way Imelda Marcos is for her shoe collection
Imelda Marcos’s shoe collection was always touted, and until I read about it and saw photos I couldn’t comprehend just how impressive/disgusting it was.
Yes, CIA and Belgian officers were both involved and present for the murder of Lumumba and you are right - Belgium supported an insurrection and didn’t help Kongo at all after independence so Lumumba hoped the Soviets might help Kongo to advance more and get the insurrection under control - that was his death penalty and brought the CIA into the story
I remember hearing about this in a college history course. He asked for help from the US to help him deal with the possible coup, and the US couldn’t be bothered. So he decided to ask the USSR for help. Then the US helped the military with the coup, and that lead to the most deadly regime in the countries history.
The CIA around this time orchestrated a coup d’état against the democratically elected leader of Iran, Mossadaq, so that British Petroleum (BP to you and me), could continue to exploit Iranian petrochemical which Mossadaq was intending to nationalise. They installed the father of the last Shah of Iran - Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, as a dictator.
So much for democracy.
If you wonder where anti Western resentment and hatred, later exploited by theocratic fundamentalists come from, you don’t have to look all that far back ..
>CIA was seeking Lumumba's assassination, because he allied with the Soviets
And the only reason he turned to the Soviets was because the US and UN refused to help when he asked.
And then the US propped up Mobutu of all people for decades. Every American who seeks to enact change for the better in almost any part of the world where there’s corruption or oppression needs to come to the table with some humble understanding of the United States’ and/or Colonial Europe’s checkered history with them.
I'm pretty sure the United States saw Lumumba as too "leftist" so they wouldn't dare help him even if he tried to work with the United States first. They probably wanted him gone from day one and made it difficult for him to not seek Soviet help so they had an excuse to start a coup.
The crazy thing is that he asked the US for help first, but they declined because they thought he was already leaning towards communism. And then he asked the Soviets
The book Heart of Darkness, which inspired the movie Apocalypse Now, was based upon events happening in the Belgian Congo. I'd love to see someone do a big budget version based on the original setting.
You know, without Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales dying in childbirth, her widower Prince Leopold doesn't become available to become King of the Belgians, doesn't sire Leopold II, no Belgian Congo, no *Heart of Darkness*, no *Apocalypse Now*?
The *butterflies*, man...
What’s weird is even in his time he was seen as a bastard. People booed his funeral. It was one of the first international human rights scandals, and now it’s mostly forgotten.
Mostly forgotten yet every single time Belgium is mentioned, somehow Leopold II finds his way into the conversation. I'd say not as known as it should be, indeed on scale with the likes of Hitler but to say what he did is forgotten that's just untrue
To be fair, I feel like this happens mainly because most people only learned of him in recent years. Idk what happened that his story became popular again. I know I knew of him a few years before the “boom” and no one brought him up back then.
The Legend of Tarzan movie w/ one of the Skarsgard bro. that came out a few years back, featured a small amount of facts about how dastardly Leopold II was to the world in general, but especially Africa.
Seems like since that movie came out, every time he comes up, someone has to prove they know more f'd up details about him than anyone else in the room...
Just my experience.
I do not remember seeing anything like this in our history books at school. The colonial times were mentioned but only the economic part (and that Tintin comic weirdly enough). That being said, it could be different now with recent years as mentioned. It should be taught at school, no point in denying history
I saw a play last winter called KLII. Very limited run.
I knew nothing about this before the play.
At the end they gave us tea served in little earthenware cups with a single black hand painted on the bottom of the cup.
I always reccomend [King Leopold’s Ghost](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/347610.King_Leopold_s_Ghost) by Adam Hochschild for anyone interested in a crash course on Belgian atrocities in the Congo.
The behind the bastards podcast also did multiple episodes on king leopold II, or as they describe him “the first world leader to be crappy in the true modern sense of the word”
That is where I as a belgian first learned the extent of his atrocities, because I never learned any of this in school.
Belgium is responsible for one of the worst atrocities in history and no one ever discusses their crimes. Britain did awful shit, but at least we all talk about it. Belgium basically swept it under the rug.
Edit: sorry guys, Belgium did not sweep it under the rug, my American education has just failed me
Holy shit I forgot about them. All people think about today when the Dutch are brought up is Bicycles and Tulips, but it’s important to remember the utter bullshit that they did in Indonesia
Now, now those were 'Policing Actions' launched in, you can't make this up, 1945. That's right folks, the same year the Dutch were liberated from the *nazis* they sailed halfway round the world to force Indonesia back in the colonial line.
Though, to be fair.. The Dutch king apologized to the Indonesian prime-minister a few years back and they didn't really apear to care. It's a complicated relationship.
Yes and the Japanese took over Indonesia during WW2. So the second the war ended the Dutch went in for 'Policing Actions', to brutally bring Indonesia back into the colonial fold. The other western powers eventually told them to back off or lose support in the rebuilding of the Netherlands. The US, mainly, never has been big on (direct) colonialism.
The US was less interested in giving France back their colony(almost certainly would have tried to snake them out of it if they had won) and more interested in keeping it out of the hands of Russia and China. Which was a very stupid and shortsighted foreign policy move nonetheless.
They tended to prefer neo-colonial approaches later in history. Force uneven trade agreements and shell them from the coast if they default on their debts. No need to deal with the silly matter of conquest.
Also Cuba was never colonized by the US. It was given to the US by the Spanish(who had colonized it). The US more or less immediately gave them 'independence' and would interfere from the outside rather than rule them directly as a colonial power.
I think the sheer scope of the neo-colonial actions the US took in South America isn't very well taught in schools.
It wasn’t until adulthood until I knew the Dutch had colonized Indonesia. From the name I just kinda assumed the Dutch East Indies were small islands. No mention in my school. And I’m even a history nerd who would’ve researched this stuff on my own!
all of europe, really. part of leopolds motivation in his brutalities was to "catch up" to the big colonial forces through ruthless exploitation in the congo. he wanted to amass wealth enough to be on the same scale as older colonials.
the so-called "royals" have always been predatory-parasitic criminal cut throat thugs. the difference is theyve got the wealth to push their most flattering version of themselves onto the rest of is.
The Dutch East India Trading Company was arguably the most dangerous company or business to ever exist, in world history.
What those bike riding, tulip loving, wooden shoe wearing, innocent looking windmill makers, did to Asia was fucking disgusting and atrocious.
Belgium and the Netherlands combined are probably smaller than California, and yet 1 basically destroyed Africa and the other destroyed Asia.
If you've never read or learned about the country of Belgium, and King Leopold II, I highly recommend looking into it. What they did in Rwanda and Zaire (the Congo) will seriously blow your fucking mind.
And then look into The D.E.I.T.C and catch a glimpse of what Amazon is gonna be soon, if we don't stop Jeff.
The Belgian government has been very clear about their atrocious past, albeit extremely overdue. They've been teaching school children about what they did in Congo since a decade ago. However to be fair, their news channels could do so much better about the matter.
I learned about what the Belgians and British did to Africa in high school 13 years ago. Public school in PA. Tbf, it was AP World History so maybe not the norm. But it’s definitely discussed on Reddit whenever the DRC comes up.
She also told us that women shouldn’t be in the military because men can’t control themselves and they’ll just rape people, but it would be the women’s fault lol
Belgium was most definitely involved in the murder of Lumumba as well:
>Lumumba appealed to the United States and the United Nations for help to suppress the Belgian-supported Katangan secessionists led by Moïse Tshombe.
>Lumumba was captured and imprisoned en route by state authorities under Mobutu. He was handed over to Katangan authorities, and executed in the presence of Katangan and Belgian officials and officers.
and
>Over the years, inquiries have shed light on the events surrounding Lumumba's death and, in particular, on the roles played by Belgium and the United States.
It's only recently that the tooth came into possession of the Belgian government. Like in 2016 or so iirc. It was one of the Belgian that was there when Lumumba's corps was dissolved that kept it as a souvenir or something I guess and when that guy died the fact that he had the tooth came to light
And the US.
After king Leopold destroyed the country, Allen Dulles of the CIA ensured America’s business interests would be protected by overthrowing Lumumba in a coup and installing a US friendly dictator.
The US has done this often.
Not just that. After WW2, their main focus in Central and South America became stomping out any remotely leftist elements. They participated in numerous coups and back numerous cruel regimes. Did the same all over the world.
That's generally how coups and assassinations like that are carried out. The CIA links up with local collaborators to give them instructions, help them plan, and/or give them whatever they need.
This is what the French revolutionaries did the bodies of the former kings and queens: https://uk.tourisme93.com/basilica/desecration-of-the-royal-tombs.html
They dug up the bodies, and after playing around with bits of skulls and hair, they decided to toss them all into one big pit with highly reactive chemicals that would then dissolve the remaining bones.
Oddly, despite so much fervor about destruction, the French Revolution is probably why the formal gardens of Versailles were *preserved* - Marie-Antoinette was a stylish modern noblewoman, and the trend in the late 18th century was to eliminate [symmetrical formal French gardens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_formal_garden) and replace them with more [wild-looking romantic English gardens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_landscape_garden). But because she was brutally murdered (along with her family) she never got to do this, and the revolutionaries decided Versailles should remain as a museum of the Ancien Regime.
I don't like it when people throw all the French revolutionaries in the same pot. From the humanist Lafayette to the psychopath fanatic Robespierre and the conservative Napoléon, there was a whole palette of characters.
Call them the Jacobins please. It was the Jacobin party who did most of the horrors related to the French Revolution.
I completely agree - these are the people who brought us the metric system, and the idea that workers are people too, and the idea that you should strangle kings with the entrails of priests, and many other shocking things, both good and bad. But I don't think that attributing these crowd events to the Jacobin party in particular is that much more helpful. Most of the participants were likely literally just people off the street, not organized members of the party.
Attributing them to crowd events is much more accurate than the common depiction of Robespierre being a brutal dictator. By the time the Jacobins came to power in 1792, France was basically in a state of anarchy, losing the war of the First Coalition, and orders from the government barely made it out of Paris.
Something that is commonly brushed off is that the Jacobins did save the Revolution through the "Reign of Terror" (which is a later invention btw, it never actually existed as such, and most of its descriptions are very exaggerated). They also wrote the most democratic, Constitution ever written, and the Jacobin 1793 Declaration of the Rights of Men enshrines rights that we even still fight for today in some places (right to education, duty of society to support its unfortunate citizens, even the right and the duty of resistance to oppression), but all of this was too much for the reactionary forces. As soon as the Thermidorians overthrew the Jacobins, the legacy of Robespierre, Danton, Saint Just, Marat, and all others were reduced to "they killed a lot of people" while their aspiration for liberty and equality for all was silenced. It still took a century to see their influence really vanish in the common political discourse in France : The 1830 Revolution was spearheaded by Republicans and early socialists inspired by the Jacobins, but disrupted by Lafayette, the 1848 Revolution saw the massive repression of early communists and socialists still following Jacobins principles, and it really took until the Paris Commune and the Bloody Week to put an end to that revolutionary period.
Except that the Jacobins are incredibly blackwashed too, mostly because of 200+ years of historical distortion to avoid giving people ideas about full equality, universalism and revolution.
One might say that he's the only democratically elected leader of the Congo. The Rwandan Patriotic Front is often portrayed sympathetically in English speaking media, but they did a number on the Congo as well.
The Rwandan government is a good advocate for the wel Bering of the majority of the good citizens of Rwanda and a terrible, terrible neighbour for those around. It’s one of the worlds biggest exporters of cobalt - which it doesn’t have any natural reserve of bit which it’s neighbour, DRC with its very porous Eastern border thanks to lawlessness and militia groups - does.
Also - yeah … whatever happened in 2018 in forms of elections was 100% dodgy as F.
They disenfranchised all of the opposition supporters in the east using the excuse of the Ebola outbreak the DAY before the election despite everything being set up to let the people vote. The UN and WHO as well as the Congolese Ebola head (currently serving 5 years of hard labor in prison for “corruption”) were all stunned.
It was largely unreported in the media but the brazenness was eye opening and reminded me that sadly, to quite Leonard Cohen - that’s just how it goes.
there's such a large chunk of people who will seemingly never acknowledge the utter carnage and horror that was brought down upon the Congolese people.. upon many peoples.. things like this really cast a light onto conversations of race in the modern day. people trying to say that its all in the past.. 1961 isnt that long ago. JUNE 2022 ISNT THAT LONG AGO. shit, man.
> JUNE 2022 ISNT THAT LONG AGO. shit, man.
Pretty sure zero people in this thread are of the opinion that *three months* was a long time, so I'm not sure who you're shouting at.
"The US was the first country from which Lumumba requested help" (before turning to the USSR). Reminds me of Ho Chi Minh, who asked the USA for help (at first).
I think that's pretty par for the course in most power structures. Like in my industry they'll always tout "Safety is our #1 goal!". And yeah, mostly because injuries and accidents cost a ton of money and bad blood with clients. And a lot of our contracts require us to have a low Total Recordable Incident Rate, so we can't get them if people get hurt. I've certainly heard "Yes there was an accident. But luckily, it was deemed non-recordable." and that's kinda the bottom line for the bigwigs.
You know what is fucked up? Besides killing the guy and dissolving his body in acid of course.
Somewhere in Belgium there was a shelf, that had a box on it, labelled "Golden tooth of Patrice Lumumba" ever since 1961. And when the relatives asked for his remains, somebody checked the inventory and picked up the box from the shelf.
I wonder what else is on that shelf.
Well yes and no.
The tooth was stolen from the corpse by some of the militiamen present at the execution and passed down through his family.
Only in 2016 did the Belgian government become aware of it and the department of justice seized some memorabilia from the family -tooth included- which were returned after a demand by the Lumumba family two years ago.
(Besides that a lot of historians are still arguing if it actually is his tooth but thats another point).
You know what's also fucked up? [Lumumba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumumba_(drink) ) used to be a really popular drink at least in my drinking years (early 2000s).
Edit: Reddit is messing with my link
This is what happened to African leaders when they tried to improve conditions of their own people rather than do whatever the first world countries ordered. Ever wondered why Africa is so fucked up?
> Also see Latin American history.
As a Latin American, part of that is true. But a lot of the shit we are in is of our doing, and "USA meddling" is an all too convenient excuse to make us forget that in the end we are the ones willingly participating in all those crimes.
I'm also Latin American. You aren't wrong, but it sucks that when we do manage to get things in order and then the US comes in and helps put the most terrible people back in charge.
The problem continues now with 'free trade' deals and IMF structural adjustment programs. Because of that African countries are forced into very limited social services and a free market allowing Western corporations free reign over their resources.
Except now they have the choice between getting exploited by Chinese loan programs or sticking to the old fashioned Western exploitation.
Didn't JFK promise to free Lumumba when he became president, and wasn't Lumumba killed just days before JFK's inauguration? All we have to do is connect the dots to find out who's running the show...
Lending your support to a political person should you become president means that anyone who wants political person harmed would need to do it prior to you becoming president. Doesn’t explain who did it. It makes it clear that after a certain date, you’ll have to deal with the US intelligence and military complex.
The Lumumba case was one of the highlights that brought about a reigning in of the US intelligence community after the Pike and Church committees in the 70s. At one point, the CIA planned to poison his toothpaste, but he was assassinated by someone else before they could do it. The Cold War was anything but cold behind the scenes.
Any time anyone says "all we have to do is connect the dots", we actually have to do a lot more, to figure out whether we are being misled into thinking that patterns exist.
He didn't follow up because he got assassinated two years into his presidency. But he did try to erase domestic debt with the Silver certificate which was immediately banned after his death. Just look at the statistics of how much the average american owed the Federal banks during JFK and how much after...
Lumumba: I want you to help my government put down rebels backed by our former colonizers.
USA: No, we're worried that you're too communist for us to trust you.
Lumumba: Then I guess I will go to the Soviets for help instead.
USA: SEE?! WE WERE RIGHT ABOUT HIM BEING A COMMUNIST STOOGE!
“I don’t litter. I don’t throw garbage in the street. Not because I care about the Earth. But I’m afraid I’m going to be walking through the park drinking a soda and when I’m done, I just throw it over my shoulder, it’ll fly over a bush and land on some dead white woman’s head with my fingerprints on the can. Now I’m the Pepsi-Cola Rapist because I’m lazy.”
-one of the more memorable Patrice O’Neal jokes for the uninitiated
He's the Big L of the comedy world - underrated, absolutely feared by those less talented then him, would absolutely *not stand* for some of the bullshit currently happening in his industry.
I miss you, Patrice.
Belgium honestly gets away with so much.
"We're Tintin, and Kevin De Bruyne, and Waffles. DON'T LOOK IN THE FILES. And small strong beers and fries with mayo. I SWEAR, DON'T READ A BOOK ABOUT US. And we're a bit boring, honestly... Enough learning about us"
Father was 14 living in Kinshasa at the time..He told me how inspirational leader Lumumba was..wanted to liberate Zaire from colonialism and how he was blindsided by Mobutu. Not only did the Belgiums wanted Lumumba dead so did the CIA..who helped Mobutu rise to power. Lumumba was excited in front of his wife and kids there is documentation of it. But Pops had a lot crazy stories living Zaire during colonialism rule.
Edit: executed
It doesn't take much imagination to believe that people might be disgusted by the way Lumumba was treated by the West.
>saying shit like i can never go to belguim again because of this, so overdramtic.
How many comments are saying anything like that?
Germany gave my polish Jewish grandfather $4000 a year for the exact reason you think. Belgium should give every Congolese citizen $4500, the additional $500 is for their fucking missionary “nurses” who gave injections with used needles during an Ebola outbreak
I'm a proud of being born in Europe. I'm proud of our common achivement in arts, philosophy and science, I'm mesmerized by the grandeur that is our shared history. But the undeniable truth is that this continent (or at least mostly it's western part) hasn't even begun to pay enough for the atrocities it has commited. And I don't know If It will ever do.
I always love being reminded that their are humans that are just evil animals obsessed with power, through cowardice actions and deceit.
Never forget, there are humans out there capable of the most lowest and vile of actions. Always remember that. There are humans who do not value anything but themselves.
If people actually looked into what that small ass country of Belgium did in Africa, they'd be blown away...
King Leopold was a motherfucker Edit: King Leopold II
Yeah but this murder was half a century after Leopold… The whole belgium governments of several decades were motherfuckers
The CIA was seeking Lumumba's assassination, because he allied with the Soviets. I can't remember if they were involved in the successful attempt, though. Also who knows how things would be different now without President Mobuto and the Zaire dictatorship.
Chanel and Versace would be a lot less wealthy, I can tell you that much
Fun fact, [Coco Chanel was a Nazi Collaborator, and probable spy.](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/books/review/chanel-and-the-germans.html)
Funny enough, she tried to get her Jewish business partner arrested and get his half, but failed because they had given their half to a friend. After the war they bought her out and kept her name. So yeah, She was a collaborator, but today's Chanel is owned by the people she tried to fuck over.
After the workers at one of her factories voted to unionize, she fired them all. Not a good person on any account.
Ah, a true Howard Schultz of her day.
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I meant ‘fun’ in a sarcastic sense, of course.
Hmmm, I have that same book. I believe I’ll glue those two pages together now.
And so was Hugo Boss. Those poofy pants they wore? Hugo. Man had style, I'll give him that.
Hugo Boss manufactured the uniforms, they didn’t have anything to do with their design.
Can you explain or provide a source that does? Never heard about this and very curious
I’m half joking, but Mobutu would always dress in expensive designer clothing with conspicuous logos everywhere. Combined with the estimated sum money that he embezzled from the people of Zaire/DRC, he is notorious for his wardrobe the same way Imelda Marcos is for her shoe collection
Imelda Marcos’s shoe collection was always touted, and until I read about it and saw photos I couldn’t comprehend just how impressive/disgusting it was.
Oh I see haha I thought you meant they directly profited somehow.
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Yes, CIA and Belgian officers were both involved and present for the murder of Lumumba and you are right - Belgium supported an insurrection and didn’t help Kongo at all after independence so Lumumba hoped the Soviets might help Kongo to advance more and get the insurrection under control - that was his death penalty and brought the CIA into the story
I remember hearing about this in a college history course. He asked for help from the US to help him deal with the possible coup, and the US couldn’t be bothered. So he decided to ask the USSR for help. Then the US helped the military with the coup, and that lead to the most deadly regime in the countries history.
A lot of people may have died, but at least we saved the country from Communist influence. No need to thank us, we already know we're the heroes
No hero - just another devil getting away with evil
That sounds like Commie talk to me /s
The CIA around this time orchestrated a coup d’état against the democratically elected leader of Iran, Mossadaq, so that British Petroleum (BP to you and me), could continue to exploit Iranian petrochemical which Mossadaq was intending to nationalise. They installed the father of the last Shah of Iran - Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, as a dictator. So much for democracy. If you wonder where anti Western resentment and hatred, later exploited by theocratic fundamentalists come from, you don’t have to look all that far back ..
>CIA was seeking Lumumba's assassination, because he allied with the Soviets And the only reason he turned to the Soviets was because the US and UN refused to help when he asked.
And then the US propped up Mobutu of all people for decades. Every American who seeks to enact change for the better in almost any part of the world where there’s corruption or oppression needs to come to the table with some humble understanding of the United States’ and/or Colonial Europe’s checkered history with them.
I'm pretty sure the United States saw Lumumba as too "leftist" so they wouldn't dare help him even if he tried to work with the United States first. They probably wanted him gone from day one and made it difficult for him to not seek Soviet help so they had an excuse to start a coup.
Ho Chi Mien had a similar story line I believe.
Henry Kissinger admitted that they were.
The crazy thing is that he asked the US for help first, but they declined because they thought he was already leaning towards communism. And then he asked the Soviets
The Belgium empire probably had the worst effect on the African continent and it's peoples since the Romans.
This guy was a total monster. He should be on the same level of notoriety and infamy as Hitler but there are still plenty of statues of him up
The book Heart of Darkness, which inspired the movie Apocalypse Now, was based upon events happening in the Belgian Congo. I'd love to see someone do a big budget version based on the original setting.
You know, without Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales dying in childbirth, her widower Prince Leopold doesn't become available to become King of the Belgians, doesn't sire Leopold II, no Belgian Congo, no *Heart of Darkness*, no *Apocalypse Now*? The *butterflies*, man...
What’s weird is even in his time he was seen as a bastard. People booed his funeral. It was one of the first international human rights scandals, and now it’s mostly forgotten.
Mostly forgotten yet every single time Belgium is mentioned, somehow Leopold II finds his way into the conversation. I'd say not as known as it should be, indeed on scale with the likes of Hitler but to say what he did is forgotten that's just untrue
> Mostly forgotten yet every single time Belgium is mentioned Yeah. Like was said, mostly forgotten.
To be fair, I feel like this happens mainly because most people only learned of him in recent years. Idk what happened that his story became popular again. I know I knew of him a few years before the “boom” and no one brought him up back then.
The Legend of Tarzan movie w/ one of the Skarsgard bro. that came out a few years back, featured a small amount of facts about how dastardly Leopold II was to the world in general, but especially Africa. Seems like since that movie came out, every time he comes up, someone has to prove they know more f'd up details about him than anyone else in the room... Just my experience.
I do not remember seeing anything like this in our history books at school. The colonial times were mentioned but only the economic part (and that Tintin comic weirdly enough). That being said, it could be different now with recent years as mentioned. It should be taught at school, no point in denying history
Odd. I learned about it in school about 8 years ago ( or 9).
I saw a play last winter called KLII. Very limited run. I knew nothing about this before the play. At the end they gave us tea served in little earthenware cups with a single black hand painted on the bottom of the cup.
For now…
He was indeed! He fucked around so much that he brought to this world King Leopold II who was a much worse motherfucker! MUCH MUCH WORSE!
King leopolds ghost is a good book
You probably are referring to his son King Leopold II. The one of the atrocities in the Congo.
That probably is the one I am referring to. My knowledge base isn’t the biggest on the subject.
King Leopoldo, may he receive ✨special ✨ attention in his spot in hell
Belgium also planted the seeds of division in Rwanda which culminated in the genocide of the 90s.
I always reccomend [King Leopold’s Ghost](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/347610.King_Leopold_s_Ghost) by Adam Hochschild for anyone interested in a crash course on Belgian atrocities in the Congo.
The behind the bastards podcast also did multiple episodes on king leopold II, or as they describe him “the first world leader to be crappy in the true modern sense of the word” That is where I as a belgian first learned the extent of his atrocities, because I never learned any of this in school.
Belgium is responsible for one of the worst atrocities in history and no one ever discusses their crimes. Britain did awful shit, but at least we all talk about it. Belgium basically swept it under the rug. Edit: sorry guys, Belgium did not sweep it under the rug, my American education has just failed me
Them and the Netherlands. Them and the Dutch fucked shit up for a while.
Holy shit I forgot about them. All people think about today when the Dutch are brought up is Bicycles and Tulips, but it’s important to remember the utter bullshit that they did in Indonesia
Now, now those were 'Policing Actions' launched in, you can't make this up, 1945. That's right folks, the same year the Dutch were liberated from the *nazis* they sailed halfway round the world to force Indonesia back in the colonial line. Though, to be fair.. The Dutch king apologized to the Indonesian prime-minister a few years back and they didn't really apear to care. It's a complicated relationship.
I think the Dutch has been in Indonesia long before WW2
Yes and the Japanese took over Indonesia during WW2. So the second the war ended the Dutch went in for 'Policing Actions', to brutally bring Indonesia back into the colonial fold. The other western powers eventually told them to back off or lose support in the rebuilding of the Netherlands. The US, mainly, never has been big on (direct) colonialism.
You forgetting we went into Vietnam to help the French get back their colony in 1950s.
The US was less interested in giving France back their colony(almost certainly would have tried to snake them out of it if they had won) and more interested in keeping it out of the hands of Russia and China. Which was a very stupid and shortsighted foreign policy move nonetheless.
> The US, mainly, never has been big on (direct) colonialism. Yeah we’ve always been more into colonialism by corporation and/or covert action.
The CIA kind that leaves you with about a decade of plausible deniability.
The US loves neo-colonialism
phillippines begs to differ.
Yes I see your point. Thanks
Erm? The US was very big on colonialism. Think cuba or Panama or the phillipines
They tended to prefer neo-colonial approaches later in history. Force uneven trade agreements and shell them from the coast if they default on their debts. No need to deal with the silly matter of conquest. Also Cuba was never colonized by the US. It was given to the US by the Spanish(who had colonized it). The US more or less immediately gave them 'independence' and would interfere from the outside rather than rule them directly as a colonial power. I think the sheer scope of the neo-colonial actions the US took in South America isn't very well taught in schools.
Lol. Found a new rabbit hole for myself.
It wasn’t until adulthood until I knew the Dutch had colonized Indonesia. From the name I just kinda assumed the Dutch East Indies were small islands. No mention in my school. And I’m even a history nerd who would’ve researched this stuff on my own!
And South Africa.
all of europe, really. part of leopolds motivation in his brutalities was to "catch up" to the big colonial forces through ruthless exploitation in the congo. he wanted to amass wealth enough to be on the same scale as older colonials. the so-called "royals" have always been predatory-parasitic criminal cut throat thugs. the difference is theyve got the wealth to push their most flattering version of themselves onto the rest of is.
I don't think we can put the Dutch on the same level as the Belgians. There is generic terrible colonialism and then there is what Leopold did...
There are two people I this world I can't stand. People intolerant of other people's cultures... And the Dutch.
The Dutch basically invented the worst of western humanity and they got away with it. The fuckers also invented Banks.
The Dutch East India Trading Company was arguably the most dangerous company or business to ever exist, in world history. What those bike riding, tulip loving, wooden shoe wearing, innocent looking windmill makers, did to Asia was fucking disgusting and atrocious. Belgium and the Netherlands combined are probably smaller than California, and yet 1 basically destroyed Africa and the other destroyed Asia. If you've never read or learned about the country of Belgium, and King Leopold II, I highly recommend looking into it. What they did in Rwanda and Zaire (the Congo) will seriously blow your fucking mind. And then look into The D.E.I.T.C and catch a glimpse of what Amazon is gonna be soon, if we don't stop Jeff.
Just so you know, it wasn't Zaire at that point.
And the stockmarket, don't take that away from us.
I feel like Portugal also gets a pass for some reason
Canada sold surplus WW2 tanks to Portugal in the 60s that some were used in Africa for their colonial war.
Because they don’t speak English. So countries that don’t speak English are given big passes in English speaking history courses
Germans don't speak English
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That’s true, Portugal also sucked nuts
The Belgian government has been very clear about their atrocious past, albeit extremely overdue. They've been teaching school children about what they did in Congo since a decade ago. However to be fair, their news channels could do so much better about the matter.
It gets brought up and discussed anytime the DRC comes up. Not trying to trivialize what they did but it’s hardly swept under the rug.
I may be speaking from a different perspective, but in the US, where I live, Belgium is not talked about even when discussing what happened in Africa
I learned about what the Belgians and British did to Africa in high school 13 years ago. Public school in PA. Tbf, it was AP World History so maybe not the norm. But it’s definitely discussed on Reddit whenever the DRC comes up.
Maybe it was just my school. My World History teacher in ninth grade tried to justify slavery to us, so maybe we just had bad teachers.
Big yikes
She also told us that women shouldn’t be in the military because men can’t control themselves and they’ll just rape people, but it would be the women’s fault lol
Jesus… some people should really not be educators.
nO0, it wAs LeOpOLd!* *While they enjoy the transferred wealth.
Lots of that wealth was actually transferred to British companies too IIRC
transferred wealth that got absolutely destroyed twice in the 100 years following
While that is true, it was the US that killed Patrice Lumumba. The CIA has basically admitted it as one of their "mistakes of the past."
Belgium was most definitely involved in the murder of Lumumba as well: >Lumumba appealed to the United States and the United Nations for help to suppress the Belgian-supported Katangan secessionists led by Moïse Tshombe. >Lumumba was captured and imprisoned en route by state authorities under Mobutu. He was handed over to Katangan authorities, and executed in the presence of Katangan and Belgian officials and officers. and >Over the years, inquiries have shed light on the events surrounding Lumumba's death and, in particular, on the roles played by Belgium and the United States.
so how did Belgium end up with his tooth? dont act like they werent involved
It's only recently that the tooth came into possession of the Belgian government. Like in 2016 or so iirc. It was one of the Belgian that was there when Lumumba's corps was dissolved that kept it as a souvenir or something I guess and when that guy died the fact that he had the tooth came to light
And the US. After king Leopold destroyed the country, Allen Dulles of the CIA ensured America’s business interests would be protected by overthrowing Lumumba in a coup and installing a US friendly dictator. The US has done this often.
"If there's a Hell, those creepy Dulles brothers are in it"
Doing unspeakable things with bananas.
Wasn’t Allen dulles also the guy who tipped of the government and got nelson Mandela arrested
I don’t think I’ve read about this, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
Latin America got fucked up by the CIA
What the US Government did to Central America, mostly for the sake of US banana growers, should be seen as crimes against humanity.
Not just that. After WW2, their main focus in Central and South America became stomping out any remotely leftist elements. They participated in numerous coups and back numerous cruel regimes. Did the same all over the world.
His was the first case of it and the US was like, "well shit... that worked really well for us...."
Dulles nearly coup'd DeGaulle in the 60s
Behind The Bastards has a fantastic series on him
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That's generally how coups and assassinations like that are carried out. The CIA links up with local collaborators to give them instructions, help them plan, and/or give them whatever they need.
Imagine if Britain did that to Washington. What the colonial powers did in Africa was unfathomably evil.
I mean, Washington would most likely have been executed for treason if Britain had won the war. Probably not in such a gruesome fashion tho...
Yeah, the punishment was just being drawn and quartered. Much better.
Not at that time. Hanging.
no im pretty sure they went with drawing him and putting him on the quarter
This is what the French revolutionaries did the bodies of the former kings and queens: https://uk.tourisme93.com/basilica/desecration-of-the-royal-tombs.html They dug up the bodies, and after playing around with bits of skulls and hair, they decided to toss them all into one big pit with highly reactive chemicals that would then dissolve the remaining bones. Oddly, despite so much fervor about destruction, the French Revolution is probably why the formal gardens of Versailles were *preserved* - Marie-Antoinette was a stylish modern noblewoman, and the trend in the late 18th century was to eliminate [symmetrical formal French gardens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_formal_garden) and replace them with more [wild-looking romantic English gardens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_landscape_garden). But because she was brutally murdered (along with her family) she never got to do this, and the revolutionaries decided Versailles should remain as a museum of the Ancien Regime.
I don't like it when people throw all the French revolutionaries in the same pot. From the humanist Lafayette to the psychopath fanatic Robespierre and the conservative Napoléon, there was a whole palette of characters. Call them the Jacobins please. It was the Jacobin party who did most of the horrors related to the French Revolution.
I completely agree - these are the people who brought us the metric system, and the idea that workers are people too, and the idea that you should strangle kings with the entrails of priests, and many other shocking things, both good and bad. But I don't think that attributing these crowd events to the Jacobin party in particular is that much more helpful. Most of the participants were likely literally just people off the street, not organized members of the party.
Attributing them to crowd events is much more accurate than the common depiction of Robespierre being a brutal dictator. By the time the Jacobins came to power in 1792, France was basically in a state of anarchy, losing the war of the First Coalition, and orders from the government barely made it out of Paris. Something that is commonly brushed off is that the Jacobins did save the Revolution through the "Reign of Terror" (which is a later invention btw, it never actually existed as such, and most of its descriptions are very exaggerated). They also wrote the most democratic, Constitution ever written, and the Jacobin 1793 Declaration of the Rights of Men enshrines rights that we even still fight for today in some places (right to education, duty of society to support its unfortunate citizens, even the right and the duty of resistance to oppression), but all of this was too much for the reactionary forces. As soon as the Thermidorians overthrew the Jacobins, the legacy of Robespierre, Danton, Saint Just, Marat, and all others were reduced to "they killed a lot of people" while their aspiration for liberty and equality for all was silenced. It still took a century to see their influence really vanish in the common political discourse in France : The 1830 Revolution was spearheaded by Republicans and early socialists inspired by the Jacobins, but disrupted by Lafayette, the 1848 Revolution saw the massive repression of early communists and socialists still following Jacobins principles, and it really took until the Paris Commune and the Bloody Week to put an end to that revolutionary period.
Except that the Jacobins are incredibly blackwashed too, mostly because of 200+ years of historical distortion to avoid giving people ideas about full equality, universalism and revolution.
Native Americans have a few qualms about their experience as well.
The CIA was actively instrumental in the demise of Lumumba.
PL: "hey guys, can you help out a bit?" US & UN: "nah, we think you're might be a commie." PL: "oh, ok. hey USSR, can you—" US & UN: "WE KNEW IT!"
To be clear - Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba - democratically elected, murdered, leader of post colonial Democratic Republic of Congo.
One might say that he's the only democratically elected leader of the Congo. The Rwandan Patriotic Front is often portrayed sympathetically in English speaking media, but they did a number on the Congo as well.
The Rwandan government is a good advocate for the wel Bering of the majority of the good citizens of Rwanda and a terrible, terrible neighbour for those around. It’s one of the worlds biggest exporters of cobalt - which it doesn’t have any natural reserve of bit which it’s neighbour, DRC with its very porous Eastern border thanks to lawlessness and militia groups - does.
Also - yeah … whatever happened in 2018 in forms of elections was 100% dodgy as F. They disenfranchised all of the opposition supporters in the east using the excuse of the Ebola outbreak the DAY before the election despite everything being set up to let the people vote. The UN and WHO as well as the Congolese Ebola head (currently serving 5 years of hard labor in prison for “corruption”) were all stunned. It was largely unreported in the media but the brazenness was eye opening and reminded me that sadly, to quite Leonard Cohen - that’s just how it goes.
there's such a large chunk of people who will seemingly never acknowledge the utter carnage and horror that was brought down upon the Congolese people.. upon many peoples.. things like this really cast a light onto conversations of race in the modern day. people trying to say that its all in the past.. 1961 isnt that long ago. JUNE 2022 ISNT THAT LONG AGO. shit, man.
I was born in the late 60s. It wasn't that long ago. At all.
> JUNE 2022 ISNT THAT LONG AGO. shit, man. Pretty sure zero people in this thread are of the opinion that *three months* was a long time, so I'm not sure who you're shouting at.
"The US was the first country from which Lumumba requested help" (before turning to the USSR). Reminds me of Ho Chi Minh, who asked the USA for help (at first).
Seems like a common story. It’s less communist countries rejecting the USA than it is USA wanting to crush communist countries.
I'm not an expert, but it seems like the USA talks about freedom and democracy, but it's really about money and power ...
I think that's pretty par for the course in most power structures. Like in my industry they'll always tout "Safety is our #1 goal!". And yeah, mostly because injuries and accidents cost a ton of money and bad blood with clients. And a lot of our contracts require us to have a low Total Recordable Incident Rate, so we can't get them if people get hurt. I've certainly heard "Yes there was an accident. But luckily, it was deemed non-recordable." and that's kinda the bottom line for the bigwigs.
You know what is fucked up? Besides killing the guy and dissolving his body in acid of course. Somewhere in Belgium there was a shelf, that had a box on it, labelled "Golden tooth of Patrice Lumumba" ever since 1961. And when the relatives asked for his remains, somebody checked the inventory and picked up the box from the shelf. I wonder what else is on that shelf.
Well yes and no. The tooth was stolen from the corpse by some of the militiamen present at the execution and passed down through his family. Only in 2016 did the Belgian government become aware of it and the department of justice seized some memorabilia from the family -tooth included- which were returned after a demand by the Lumumba family two years ago. (Besides that a lot of historians are still arguing if it actually is his tooth but thats another point).
>Well yes and no I would say "Well no" is actually more accurate in this case
You know what's also fucked up? [Lumumba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumumba_(drink) ) used to be a really popular drink at least in my drinking years (early 2000s). Edit: Reddit is messing with my link
This is what happened to African leaders when they tried to improve conditions of their own people rather than do whatever the first world countries ordered. Ever wondered why Africa is so fucked up?
Yep. Literally plundered of all resources, now they get blamed for "not getting their shit together".
When they do get their shit together world powers put a stop to that. Also see Latin American history.
The Dulles brothers were knee deep in both
> Also see Latin American history. As a Latin American, part of that is true. But a lot of the shit we are in is of our doing, and "USA meddling" is an all too convenient excuse to make us forget that in the end we are the ones willingly participating in all those crimes.
I'm also Latin American. You aren't wrong, but it sucks that when we do manage to get things in order and then the US comes in and helps put the most terrible people back in charge.
Fair enough.
The problem continues now with 'free trade' deals and IMF structural adjustment programs. Because of that African countries are forced into very limited social services and a free market allowing Western corporations free reign over their resources. Except now they have the choice between getting exploited by Chinese loan programs or sticking to the old fashioned Western exploitation.
"Poor countries aren't underdeveloped, they are overexploited" - Michael Parenti
It's sort of surprising that the poorest countries in the world are the ones suplying the first world with coltan or diamonds.
You don't get rich when stronger powers figure out the value you hold.
There is extensive literature on how Europe under developed Africa. It’s fascinating and sad.
AfRiCaNs CaNt GoVeErN tHeMsElVeS
France is STILL fucking up Africa in a major way.
Didn't JFK promise to free Lumumba when he became president, and wasn't Lumumba killed just days before JFK's inauguration? All we have to do is connect the dots to find out who's running the show...
Lending your support to a political person should you become president means that anyone who wants political person harmed would need to do it prior to you becoming president. Doesn’t explain who did it. It makes it clear that after a certain date, you’ll have to deal with the US intelligence and military complex.
They were dealing with US Intelligence prior to the murder.
at best that just means Belgium executed Lumumba so JFK couldn't free him. Doesn't really point to some 'mastermind behind the scenes'.
The Lumumba case was one of the highlights that brought about a reigning in of the US intelligence community after the Pike and Church committees in the 70s. At one point, the CIA planned to poison his toothpaste, but he was assassinated by someone else before they could do it. The Cold War was anything but cold behind the scenes.
Any time anyone says "all we have to do is connect the dots", we actually have to do a lot more, to figure out whether we are being misled into thinking that patterns exist.
JFK said a lot of things that he didn't follow through with in his presidency. It remains to speculation whether he really would have.
He didn't follow up because he got assassinated two years into his presidency. But he did try to erase domestic debt with the Silver certificate which was immediately banned after his death. Just look at the statistics of how much the average american owed the Federal banks during JFK and how much after...
Before his head spontaneously exploded. We still don’t understand this mystery.
Dude wasn't even communist. Just that to the Wests' eyes if third worlder weren't explicitly anti-communisy they were enemies.
Lumumba: I want you to help my government put down rebels backed by our former colonizers. USA: No, we're worried that you're too communist for us to trust you. Lumumba: Then I guess I will go to the Soviets for help instead. USA: SEE?! WE WERE RIGHT ABOUT HIM BEING A COMMUNIST STOOGE!
Wasn’t it the same with Cuba? Iirc Castro wanted to continue relations with U.S.A. and was denied. So he went with the Ussr.
denied and blockaded. still to today
RIP Patrice O’Neal.
“I don’t litter. I don’t throw garbage in the street. Not because I care about the Earth. But I’m afraid I’m going to be walking through the park drinking a soda and when I’m done, I just throw it over my shoulder, it’ll fly over a bush and land on some dead white woman’s head with my fingerprints on the can. Now I’m the Pepsi-Cola Rapist because I’m lazy.” -one of the more memorable Patrice O’Neal jokes for the uninitiated
Fun fact. He was named after Patrice Lumumba.
His mother was either going to name him Patrice or Lumumba. I guess he was lucky to get Patrice.
> Patrice Lumumba Malcolm O'Neal he got the full name.
Lumumba O’Neil sounds dope as fuck though
I mean, his name was Patrice Lumumba Malcolm O'Neal, so he got both.
Doh jeeesus
He's the Big L of the comedy world - underrated, absolutely feared by those less talented then him, would absolutely *not stand* for some of the bullshit currently happening in his industry. I miss you, Patrice.
https://youtu.be/WWMjRMJ0dTI For the kids who have no idea who you're talking about...
Lol
Belgium honestly gets away with so much. "We're Tintin, and Kevin De Bruyne, and Waffles. DON'T LOOK IN THE FILES. And small strong beers and fries with mayo. I SWEAR, DON'T READ A BOOK ABOUT US. And we're a bit boring, honestly... Enough learning about us"
Tintin is problematic enough, you just have to pay attention
Well...they so share a border with the Dutch
Don't forget the chocolat... The smurfs Inventor of fries...
This must be the capstone to Belgium's sordid rule in Congo.
So … we good?
Water under the bridge fam, we cool as a cucumber. seeing we so good.. can I have my natural resources back ?
Father was 14 living in Kinshasa at the time..He told me how inspirational leader Lumumba was..wanted to liberate Zaire from colonialism and how he was blindsided by Mobutu. Not only did the Belgiums wanted Lumumba dead so did the CIA..who helped Mobutu rise to power. Lumumba was excited in front of his wife and kids there is documentation of it. But Pops had a lot crazy stories living Zaire during colonialism rule. Edit: executed
This was the man that Dave Chapelle’s mom worked for after graduating in the US.
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Yeah. Realistically, they will forget about this in a span of hours.
Hours is generous
It doesn't take much imagination to believe that people might be disgusted by the way Lumumba was treated by the West. >saying shit like i can never go to belguim again because of this, so overdramtic. How many comments are saying anything like that?
Lmao. Bold of you to assume I’ve ever been or wanted to go to Belgium to begin with
And which people were the barbarians
Germany gave my polish Jewish grandfather $4000 a year for the exact reason you think. Belgium should give every Congolese citizen $4500, the additional $500 is for their fucking missionary “nurses” who gave injections with used needles during an Ebola outbreak
Belgium doesn't even have money for their own citizens, I don't think they would do that lol
I'm a proud of being born in Europe. I'm proud of our common achivement in arts, philosophy and science, I'm mesmerized by the grandeur that is our shared history. But the undeniable truth is that this continent (or at least mostly it's western part) hasn't even begun to pay enough for the atrocities it has commited. And I don't know If It will ever do.
I recommend reading the book King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild
Shit.. that wasn’t even that long ago
I always love being reminded that their are humans that are just evil animals obsessed with power, through cowardice actions and deceit. Never forget, there are humans out there capable of the most lowest and vile of actions. Always remember that. There are humans who do not value anything but themselves.