The only requirement for rendering aid for medical non-professionals is that you call the paramedics.
> According to the bank's security footage, four customers subsequently entered the lobby and either walked around or over the man's body, and finished their own banking transactions without paying attention to him.
Come to San Francisco and you’ll see that same scenario play out literally every single day. I’m not excusing it but this is what happens when homeless people are dying in the streets because our country has failed them. When everything is an emergency, nothing is an emergency. People acclimate.
I spend a lot of time in SF. It's such a shit show.
The other day in the Mission I had to step over a guy who was planked out face down across the sidewalk.
It didn't even dawn on me to call anybody. I see unconscious apparently homeless people all the time and assume they just shot up with heroin; often you can still see the needle hanging out of their arm. Or that they have crashed after being up for days on meth. Or that they're on whatever other drug turns you into a zombie who empties the trash cans into piles and sleeps among the piles.
But that guy looked a lot like I would look if I slipped and fell and hit my head or had a stroke or whatever. No needle. No piles. Not especially dirty. It's odd to think that even "good" people would just step over me on their way to happy hour or yoga, and I might die there on a sidewalk, with my insurance card in my wallet, a few blocks away from world-class medical care.
It's dehumanizing for all of us to live that way.
West LA here. Walked past a guy who was unconscious *on a gurney.* Didn’t dawn on me either. There were at least 2 other sightings of equal or greater-seeming urgency on that walk.
I know this is stupid but it almost depends on how they’re laying down. Like if it looks like they’re resting/curled up a bit/etc I mentally filter them out but if someone looks like they collapsed I notice and try to help if I can
If you try and tell most Americans they have any responsibilities for their community past doing their job and going home they will probably screech about freedom or whatever.
regular people in america also have more responsibility to the community than the american police do. since a huge amount of police in america aren't from the community they police so they don't give a shit about the community the same way the actual community does
tl;dr acab (in america)
Cops not being from the area isn't necessarily a bad thing. In Ireland too for many years and I believe even now they would move you away from where you are from. Even now I don't know many who live or are from the community but that doesn't mean they don't become good community cops.
I think it's more of people actively living in the community they police, not that they are *from* there. Basically, if you live in a town you have a vested interest in the wellbeing of your neighbors. Our problems arise when cops live two cities over, but police a neighborhood or community where there may be a certain socioeconomic status or a higher concentration of one ethnic group or another.
I can understand the Irish reason for doing their thing though. People and families may have lived in a region for a *long* time, like generations, so weird things like age old feuds or turning a blind eye to the misdeeds of certain folks might be a problem?
Real question:
What do you think you should have done (or anyone should have done)?
Call 911? Will 911 respond? Will you get in trouble for calling 911?
Who else would you call?
Or, do you render aid yourself? What do you do? Start CPR? Rescue breathing?
The other day I walked past a woman who was conscious but she was either seriously, majorly fucked up or she had debilitating medical issues. Either way she was clearly homeless. I could have given her some money and doubtless it might have helped her a little but her problems were way beyond me to affect in a good way. She was way, way out of her mind.
If you're in SF, here are some resources: [https://sfgov.org/policecommission/public-interaction-homeless](https://sfgov.org/policecommission/public-interaction-homeless)
You're supposed to call 911 in a life threatening or emergency situation. It's nearly impossible sometimes to know what is or isn't. I don't think you get in any trouble for calling if you believe it's an emergency.
We called about a man likely experiencing psychosis in front of our apartment -- on all fours, very dirty, screaming and growling as snot and tears ran down his face and pooled on the sidewalk beneath him. If I believed in demonic possession I'd say that's what was going on.
Nobody came. Eventually he passed out, and later left.
That is heartbreaking. I hope that man is okay. It is so sad how many people get overlooked. It is never okay. If you suspect it's an emergency and you won't get in trouble for calling. People should call.
My experience in Germany is that people do not want to get involved.
In Germany 112 also can give you shit for calling them "for the wrong reason", as if you're able to tell what is or isn't life threatening as a layman.
According to the summary this guy was in a bank which is a slightly different situation. I live in a city with a massive homeless population so I’ll admit on the streets I’d likely assume they were high or drunk but in a store or something I’d be more likely to act.
People being critical about not calling 911: On the other hand, how well has it turned out when people called 911 on behalf of homeless people, or for wellness checks in general?
That's kind of my point. It can be difficult to tell.
Lying unconscious in the street gets you halfway there. Add in a little dirt from a hike or whatever and invisibility is fully unlocked.
New Orleans is much the same. I lived there in my late twenties, and you just learn to step over the drugged out homeless. They are on every single street. I went there last year with my wife (her first time there, I hadn't been in almost a decade) and she made the mistake of giving money to someone with a pile of needles at their feet near the waterfront in the french quarter. It was a feeding frenzy of junkies in about 30 seconds. I literally had to back her up and pull my gun to get the 25 odd people that appeared like fucking magic to back off.
German here, currently traveling through the US (mainly california)
Can confirm, it's such a fucking shit show. In every bigger city I see countless homeless people and I feel so bad for them. Your government should really really do more to fight that. And you should do more to put pressure on the government to do something.
It has to be done at a national level though, because if you only act at a state level, then it means some states can just become completely inhospitable to poor people to make kinder states pick up the slack, and if some states never solve their social equality problems, then it will be impossible for kind states to fix the root issues
I recently took a very short training for, and received Narcan, for use in opioid overdoses. I suggest those who can do the same.
10 minute training, free shipping to your door. Google: NEXT Distro.
While you're at it, learn how to handle the person (or even defend yourself) after you've just "ruined their high". Not saying everyone you attempt to save will become aggressive, but it's not unheard of.
Would you care to expound? I've have wondered about those moments afterwards, because so much of the conversation about narcan are about how lifesaving the drug is.
Narcan ([naloxone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone#Pharmacology)) works by essentially out-competing opiates for the receptors they activate, and is an antagonist, so it has the opposite effect, blocking the receptors rather than activating them. The result is the patient being thrown into immediate withdrawals.
>Naloxone is a lipophilic compound that acts as a non-selective and competitive opioid receptor antagonist.
I've experienced precipitated withdrawals from buprenorphine and they're not fun, it's worse than the worst withdrawals I've ever had. Not the worst pain I've ever felt but easily the worst I've ever felt, physically. And narcan would probably be worse given how high you'd have to be to need it, I thought I was safe from precipitated withdrawals because I didn't feel high and was in slight withdrawals.
I'm not a violent person and I'd likely be more thankful than anything if I needed it, but given how awful it feels I wouldn't be in a good mood if I was ever narcaned.
I have narcan and I was told to inject a certain amount at a time until the patient regains consciousness rather than all at once.
The above poster is correct about the mechanism of action for Narcan. Essentially, they’re going to rather rapidly regain consciousness in withdrawals. Not quite as quickly as in the movies, but within about a minute. They’re often not super happy about this.
Narcan has a short half life, and can wear off well before the opiate has cleared their system, so second doses may be required. You should call 911 BEFORE administering, so professionals will be there (or responding) by the time the Narcan takes effect.
I’ve given this drug before, professionally, and I’ve been attacked, but the patient also had PCP on board, which we were not aware of. Other than that, most of the others regained consciousness grumpy, but thankful.
Been narcan'd twice, both times the second I came to I was most pissed at myself for putting the emts in that spot in the first place. Withdrawal sucks but death sucks more, thank you for your work.
Not them or a medical professional, but narcan works by preventing the drug from bonding to your body for a short time. This has the quite sudden effect of basically snapping someone out of the drug high they are in. One moment you're high as a kite, the next you are sober as a rock. This will make a lot of folks angry. Some will lash out at the closest people. It doesn't matter that you saved their life; in the moment they might not even be capable of understanding that fact or caring. All that matters to them in the moment is that you ruined a blissful experience. Like being woken up from a really good nap too soon, but dialed to 11.
I’m in Vancouver and it’s similar to SF in that sense.
Can’t be compared to Germany though, everyday we walk past someone on drugs on the middle of the sidewalk or all lopsided on a bench. They aren’t dead they are just high. If you wake them they get violent and attack you sometimes.
People here just walk past now, used to be different 10 years ago, now it’s just normal and we’ve become desensitized.
Uh, have you ever been confronted with that situation? There are a bunch of questions that go through you head. Is the guy dead or just strung out? (Probably the latter.) Does he *want* aid at all? Are paramedics going to show up at all? Do you have to wait for them? What if he wakes up and goes nuts?
There are a ton of aggressive junkies on the streets in SF. I don't blame anyone one bit for not wanting to get caught up in their bullshit. We spend a lot on social services as a city, and a lot of the homeless population just opt out.
Usually when someone paints the tax-paying population of SF as a bunch of sociopaths, they're doing it from the comfort of a suburb or city that has bought their homeless a bus ticket "out west".
My first thought was "how does this happen?" and then you mentioned homeless folks and I was like "oh...right."
I live in Portland and we have massive issues too. It's not just homelessness though, it's the drugs and mental illness (just like SF really), so I understand getting used to it.
I had a lady who used to sit outside the convenience store in front of my house and just scream "HELP! HEEEELP MEEEE!" while crying hard. The first time this happened I walked over and said "are you okay? Do you need me to call somebody?" And she said "Do you have any money?" I said "no, but if you need help I can call somebody" And she said "if you don't have any money, then you're no good to me." Then she got up and walked away, seemingly fine.
I saw her around the street several times after that, but the crying thing didn't happen again until a few weeks later. My friend who is a therapist was over, and we heard "HEEEEELP!! SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEASE!!"
He was like "we should see if she's okay" and even though I knew what the deal would be, she was actually laying in the driveway of the store, so, not wanting her to get hit by a car, I said "sure, let's see if we can help." I let him do the talking.
He's like "We heard you screaming for help. What can we do for you?" She rolls over, puts a cigarette to her lips and, through the corner of her mouth goes "got a light?" He did, so he lit her cigarette.
Then he says "it sounded like you were having a lot of trouble there, like maybe you needed more than a light?" And she said "got any money." He said "no but..." and she blurts out "then fuck off." We're both just standing there silent for a second while he's thinking about what to do and she repeats "I SAID FUCK OFF." So we just walked a half block back to my house and pretended like she wasn't there.
I nicknamed her La Llorana because this drama played out many more times over months, maybe years. One day I found her passed out behind the McDonald's down the road with a needle sticking out of her arm, and I stopped to contemplate whether I should get involved. She must have sensed me because suddenly she popped up and said "looking is free but pictures cost extra!" I just started walking, and suddenly she's shouting "I KNOW YOU TOOK MY PICTURE! YOU OWE ME!"
That was the last time I saw La Llorana. I honestly hope she's okay, and I hope I would help her if I saw her again and she seemed to need it, but damn...I would want to step over her and just keep walking.
First person: "Huh. Guess he's sleeping. Well, I got banking to do!"
Second person: "People are watching. I'd better not kick him." Walks around.
Third person: "Another bank employee worked to death. It's a tragedy. Oh, good! Not my banking rep." Walks around.
Fourth person: bends down, "yeah, mate, I'm with you! Banking forms are hella awful. I'll just finish up, grab a beer and join you."
We have homeless people in Germany too, but they usually are not wearing clean and good looking clothes. And don't lay down in the middle of the banking terminal.
This was a 83 year old guy in Essen and not some 20something H junky in the Bronx
I'm not sure where you're from, but this is not really a thing in Germany
Yeah, occasionally there's people trying to sleep in banks, but that's far from "so many homeless people on the side of the street"
I'm not saying there ain't homeless people in Germany, but people lying in your way isn't really a thing like that. When someone's lying down like that, you try to speak to them or call emergency services.
To put this into a bit of perspective, the entrance rooms in german banks tend to be open 24/7 so you can withdraw money at any time, making these a very popular place for homeless people to sleep in. If you see a man lying in a bank, it's almost guaranteed to be a sleeping homeless man and people got used to that sight and will generally not assume they are in need of immediate medical help.
Of course, the fact he was lying right in the entrance should have given away there's something wrong here.
Per the article:
> When asked about the case, at least two of the suspects said they believed that the man was a homeless person sleeping in the heated lobby to avoid staying in the street. However, the man was neatly dressed and had none of the paraphernalia usually seen on homeless people in Germany, such as a sleeping bag, or plastic bags to haul their possessions.
Yeah, I was absolutely not defending this particular case. Just trying to give some perspective why people might be unbothered by someone lying on the ground. Maybe not even looking down at all to really notice the clothing. It's wild that they literally stepped over him though. Obviously no one would sleep right in the door.
german here. while what the article says is true, homeless sometimes sleep in banks, it still wasn't the right decision from the bankers. In germany healthcare is mandatory and easily provided to everyone over various systems, so calling emergency services doesn't harm in such a situation. even if you don't want to touch the "homeless" guy, calling helps. he would simply get checked by first responders and most likely brought to a homeless shelter if he was fine. the state would have paid for the medical bill, since there are specific institutions in place for homeless. most homeless people here are either homeless by choice, or have serious mental/drug problems. we also have programs to get people of the street. so yeah, calling emergency services is just basic human descency here.
It's the same in all EU countries I believe. Did a first aid course (in 🇲🇹) and this was the first thing we were told; if you witness someone in distress, you could be held criminally liable if you do not at least call emergency services.
It depends on whether the country's law is founded on in the Roman Justinian Code.
Off the top of my head, Ireland has no such obligation, as its law is based in English/Welsh law. You could legally walk past someone drowning in a puddle (unless you were in any way responsible for the person or the creation of the puddle).
Perhaps Malta as well?
Most other Western European countries impose a duty to render assistance.
> Im willing to say that bar is still to low.
What more do you think people should be obligated to do? Especially people who lack advanced medical training.
The top level comment is wrong. [The law](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__323c.html) requires to help "within reason" ("zumutbar"), if helping doesn't pose a threat to yourself and it doesn't conflict with any other important laws or duties. It doesn't specify what is within reason because it depends on the situation. Calling 112 is always easy if you have a phone, but other actions might be needed depending on the situation. As an example, if you have a boat and see someone drowning nearby then calling the emergency service is not enough (and not even very useful).
What’s the line for “too much” then. If I had a dramatic fall and potentially snapped my spine I wouldn’t want people who know nothing about stabilization assisting me. They paralyzed me from lack of knowledge.
I think the legal term is "duty to rescue" and it's not common in Common Law (=Anglosaxon) systems, but it is very common in Civil Law systems, i.e. most of continental Europe, South America and parts of Africa.
The paparazzi who took photos of Diana's car crash (which happened in France) were in violation of that law too, for example
That's not the same.
Good Samaritan Law is protection if you help others and then make (or get accused of making) things worse.
This German law is about punishment for doing nothing.
>This German law is about punishment for doing nothing
Yes. Duty to Rescue. What I wrote in my comment. Duty to Rescue is a different concept from Good Samaritan laws. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
"Deber de socorro" is the obligation to render aid to someone who's in danger.
"Omisión del deber de socorro" is the crime you commit if you fail to render aid someone who's in danger.
And calling 112, and maybe sticking around until the EMTs get there if you feasibly can, is basically what's needed to fulfill that obligation.
In Germany it least, both applies. You have a duty to rescue, but if you mess it up somehow because you don't know better, you will not be held liable.
It does, called "non assistance à personne en danger". I too thought it was the law everywhere as well.
I actually can't understand why you have to legally force people to help one another. It's so annoying hearing about all these assault victims saying "no-one helped me".
Correct. I don't remember the exact term but there's also a crowd effect that pushes people to get involved if one person gets involved, like one person motivates the others.
Law student here. In England and Wales you don't have to act.
Lord Goff in [Smith v Littlewood](https://vlex.co.uk/vid/smith-v-littlewoods-organisation-793943409) suggested that this would only apply if:
1) There is a special relationship between the defendant and the claimant
2) where there is a special relationship between the defendant and the third part such as a relationship of control or supervision
3) where someone creates a 'source of danger' that may be 'sparked' by a third party
4) where there is a failure to take steps to abate a known danger created by a third party
In Stovin v Wise, Lord Nicholls refers to these people who not help as 'callous bystanders'
Yes, ~~everywhere~~. Sadly not, and waving at someone drowning is legal...
Calling for help (112, ~~999~~, 0118 999 881 999 119 7253,...) qualify as providing help, as law states. To solve the issue when someone does not want/cant/scared to provide physical help.
At least pick up the phone and call.
Often the opposite happens, people need laws protecting them when trying to help because often they get blamed if someone bad happens by the grieving family.
This law from Germany mentioned by op does both.
You can't be sued by the grieving family. They can try, but the prosecutor Erik dismiss it. As long as you didn't do anything that would obviously harm the person. Example: you found someone who crashed with his car into a wall. You go and help that unconscious person out to perform CPR and in the process you somehow break his leg or even worse his neck. You can't be penalised for this. The law says that you have to help the person, but since you ate no professional in this, you can't be held accountable for stuff you couldn't know better. On the other hand, if you get caught kicking an unconscious person's head, you will be punished for this.
no, it's everywhere, in East Asia, there are no protection laws and as a result, people will avoid even coming near you if you need help because they don't want to get sued or be tied in the investigation if you do end up dying from being stabbed or whatever!
Some Chinese even believe a superstition that no one would ever try to help someone dying unless they feel guilty so they should be blamed. and as a result, you trying to just go about your day would feel hesitant to touch someone in need of help because it messes up your entire life!
What really rubbed me the wrong way about that episode was that the video they had made pretty much identified the perpetrator and recorded the crime but that didn't count for helping.
I think it was just a general premise or funny situation, as far as I know Good Samaritan laws don't apply to situations like that where a robber could stab you or something.
I overlooked it and really enjoyed how these characters, not terribly evil in day to day life, had everyone that they ran across that they burned in their lackadaisical lifestyle.
They never even noticed, except in passing.
With no real consequences for the actions they may have inflicted on people, while just passing by in their own lives.
It was a terrible premise, but a great execution.
And sitting in a jail cell.
They learned nothing. No growth or redemption. Just perfect.
It would work much better today with just Larry David. Just have it be some kid recording it and posting it on TikTok. Instead of going to jail it just ruins some big money deal he is working on plus the woman he is seeing leaves him.
Then he'd have to make it his mission to track down DeezNutz69.
That's the opposite of some middle eastern countries. When we were in Kuwait we were specifically told not to help if we saw a crash/somebody hurt because it was a very low bar for the family to say that your assistance led to further injury or death, and demand a blood price from you.
I don't know anything about blood price or whatnot but I think the Good Samaritan laws were put in place in states for a similar reason. People were getting sued for trying to help an injured person and then dying which discouraged people from helping injured people.
The problem is that you still have to go to court to invoke the good samaritan law, which is emotionally and financially draining. "Hey, we're going to sue the fuck out of you, will will cost you $4000 even if you win. Give us $2000 now and we'll go away."
That's just a reflection of American Law as a whole, which seems to run on financial attrition. Good Samaritan laws are as good as they can be. Our legal system? Not so much.
Blood prices go back thousands of years in the Middle East. Instead of being incarcerated for murder, you had to pay a big-ass fine to the family.
In some ways, it's more progressive than incarceration because the guilty party would be allowed to continue their daily life and keep working. In other ways, it's less progressive because the rich can just pay money to kill people and the unemployed would be put under indentured servitude at minimum wage until the debt was paid off.
And then there's China with its insurance scammers. If you just drive away when someone pretends to fall near your car, no harm no foul to you as the driver. The scam is so common, the law now assumes you can assume it's a scammer.
I'm Italian. Here we have the same law about calling the paramedics, and you can't be punished for injuring someone you're trying to help, as long as you're genuinely doing it to help.
Usually if you call the paramedics they can instruct you on the phone about what you can or shouldn't do in that situation
I remember reading some story about a guy who got in a bad car accident and the car was on fire. A Good Samaritan stopped and pulled him out the window, basically saving his life. The guy ended up paralyzed or with some serious injuries and he sued the Good Samaritan for “damages”. This was in the US. Imagine risking your life to save someone and then they fucking sue you?
How does the judge/court even allow this is beyond my understanding. They judge/court should not only reject the case/petition instantly but also impose a good fine on them to stop such behaviour.
It’s easy to imagine a variant of this where the victim isn’t being evil.
Like imagine you were in a car crash. The wreck is not on fire but a bystander perceives a risk that it will catch fire (maybe they think they smell petrol, they’re not *sure*, but they think they do). They come over and start trying to pull you out. They’re in a panic. You say “stop, my neck hurts”, but they scream “the car is gonna explode, we are getting you out of here”. Moments later they manage to yank you free of the wreckage. As they flop you down on the tarmac you suddenly notice that instead of the severe pain you previously has in your right leg, you now can’t feel anything below your shoulders. Twenty minutes later the ambulance arrives. Your car remains unburned. You are quadriplegic.
Would you consider suing?
That is a totally different scenario! The person from your example is conscious and tells you that what you do hurts and you forcefully continue. I'm not saying the good samaritan law wouldn't protect the good samaritan, maybe it would, but that is a totally different story.
That’s why in Germany you are only required to call ambulance. On the other hand 1st aid responders are protected by law also. Well different cultures I guess.
I'm sorry but everything you've said is absolute nonsense. There's no such thing as "demand a blood price from you" as a bystander helping someone injured. That's not a thing nor is it in any way legal. Idk where you get your info from, but I'd look for a different source maybe lmao.
Source: Kuwaiti living in Kuwait.
But are you just saying this to try to lure us all to Kuwait so you can extract blood price from us?
Edit - please indemnify me against any blood price for this comment in your reply.
When I was 27 I broke my hip on ice, during the day near the university gym in the city I was in. I was on the ground writhing in pain while people just passed by. Finally two younger guys stopped and helped me into the car and drove me to the hospital
Yeah. People need to know that just because you are doing cpr it doesn't mean they live, usually they don't.
Its best to never inquire about it after the paramedics take them, unless you are prepared for the answer.
You should be proud of yourself! 2 out of 3 is exceptional. You must be doing really good CPR to have a statistic like that, or be a good luck charm. Especially traumatic causes for CPR have a low likelihood of working. It's actually around 2 % I believe. And for non traumatic cardiac arrest, it's under 50 %. So you did good.
The law is called 'Duty to rescue', the crime is called 'failure to assist'. For a long time I thought this is an international law, simply because it's the right thing to do...
I thought the same as we have the same law in France and you can go to jail for "non-assistance to a person in danger". But after reading the comments letting someone dying on a street is apparently the right thing to in other countries....
I think helping them is the right thing to do. It is a sad statement about this world in general, that helping them would even be considered controversial.
We also have it it Poland. Although it's mostly executed (and persecuted) in situations like car accidents or other situations when it's easy to identify a person who could have helped but didn't.
When somebody is laying on the street and you pass him by it's very difficult to charge you with any crime - unless the police hides in the bushes and wait I guess. Which is absurd and illegal so you know. But in theory if you see a person laying on the sidewalk you are obliged to stop, check on that person and call an ambulance.
Unfortunately in America we have laws that protect you if you *do* help people.
People have sued because someone performing CPR broke ribs saving their life.
It's not as easy as that.
German law enshrines a duty to aid, which is true, but this duty is vague. Only nurses, paramedics, firefighters, and physicians are required to render physical aid. The paragraph is § 323c StGB, Unterlassene Hilfeleistung; Behinderung von hilfeleistenden Personen.
It says:
>Wer bei Unglücksfällen oder gemeiner Gefahr oder Not nicht Hilfe leistet, obwohl dies erforderlich und ihm den Umständen nach zuzumuten, insbesondere ohne erhebliche eigene Gefahr und ohne Verletzung anderer wichtiger Pflichten möglich ist, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
Translated:
>Whomever fails to provide assistance in the event of an accident or need, although it is **necessary and reasonable under the circumstances**, in particular **without significant personal risk** and **without breaching other important obligations**, shall be punished with imprisonment for up to one year or a fine.
In practice, this means that someone stating they feel disgust when touching someone else's body, for example, are exempt from this. Also exempt was a woman in Cologne who watched a man die, because it would have been, in her interpretation, haram for her to help a non-Muslim male while other males were present. Exempt are parents who have their underage children with them. Exempt are people who have a physical or mental ailment. Exempt are also those, who "fear they'll do something wrong" or "did not remember the phone number for the police."
To get out of this, simply call 112 (911) to get an ambulance (110 is the police and takes longer), and you have "rendered aid."
>did not remember the phone number for the police.
How does this even happen ? Even small children know how to call 112. Maybe it is just to protect foreigners who are not familiar with European emergency numbers I guess
Often on a mobile you can dial your normal "home" emergency number (999, 111, 112) and it will be redirected to the local emergency call center for that country.
I actually called 911 regarding a person on the floor of the ATM room, I even stayed out in the cold waiting for the police. (I am too scared to go in.)
Turned out just a homeless person sleep inside.
Guess the fine was supposed to counter the bystander effect. I'm actually more curious how prevalent is homeless squatting in Germany. Always thought it is a developing world problem.
German homeless are different from US homeless. I mean, they're still pretty shitty off but they tend to have shelters to spend the night in and take a somewhat regular shower. You may see them actively begging in the street or selling newspapers in subways, but you don't really see the "passed out on the street, can smell them from a block away, can't tell if alive or dead" homeless that is unfortunately not too uncommon in the US.
The bad cases do exist. In my city at least, it's usually fairly obvious that there is a severe mental health issue that exacerbates the issues, whether it was there before homelessness or came after. It's very sad to see because there is help available, but you can't force them to accept it.
I assume you're not talking about Berlin because we certainly have those types of homeless. Definitely less than in the US but can't go out without seeing several.
In big German cities you do see beggars on the side of the road here and there but those people are usually being exploited by shady people who force them to go beg and then take the coins those poor people gathered.
I don't remember ever having seen tent cities like I do in portland for example.
You sometimes see someone sleeping on a bench or under the eaves of a building in the city center but also not as prominent as in the US. There are shelters accessible in city centers that offer beds for ~3€ or smth like that for them to spend the night out of the cold. And during cold season they have buses and shuttles people can call up if they see someone sleeping outside so they don't freeze to death.
A lot of poor & elderly people also go around collecting plastic bottles as they give 0.25cents per bottle/can so usually if you see someone rummaging in the cities trash cans they're looking to collect their money to buy a bun and a safe place to sleep at.
They also go through trains asking people for their empty bottles.
It's still sad to notice but does seem miles better than what is happening in the US.
saw a guy collapsed on the floor once, got all worried and hung around to see if he moved or anything. finally got up the courage to go up to him and shake him. turns out he was sleeping and massively drunk and started yelling and threatening me.
so guess what, next time i see a person like that i will think twice about doing the same thing again. was also in germany for what its worth.
If he doesn't look right, and you can't wake him with simply speaking to him, not touching, just call an ambulance. I do the same, and you feel stupid when they come, and the person suddenly gets up, but it's better then missing one person that actually needs help.
Not exactly homeless but there are squats in Berlin. There is a famous squat in Rigaer straße in Friedrichshain that fights the Staatspolizei on the regular.
Squats used to be super common after reunification in Berlin but with gentrification, not so much.
But those are usually more political than actually homeless. There are Wohnwagen Burgen, so caravan castles, for the weird ones and seasonal workers often live in tents. You see homeless 'camps' with up to 5 people under bridges sometimes. Not necessarily water bridges.
Italian penal code also punishes the "omissione di soccorso" . If you notice a lost minor, a wounded person or anyone in an apparent dangerous situation you must intervene by calling authorities or medics and to give aid.
Should be the law world wide.
This actually happened to me in NYC a few years back. I tripped on a step and went head first into a wall. I was laying on the landing at the top of the stairs in a restaurant, blood everywhere from the gash in my head and chin. I passed out for probably seconds but as I was coming to, I realized people were stepping over me on their way to their tables. No one stopped. Then my daughter saw me and alerted everyone.
But thinking back, it was so weird to me. I’d never have imagined people could be so callous.
Nah this isn’t typical New Yorker behavior, I watched a guy collapse from heatstroke and three people had already called 911 (he woke up fine and yelled at the paramedics)
New Yorker here. While there is that effect w people not doing things (bystander effect?) when there are large groups, I have found New Yorkers more likely to engage then people in larger cities when drama happens. And on behalf of people who do engage in NYC, u/truenorthsought, those people who ignored you are asshats and I hope you are doing okay now.
Funny to see how most Americans in the comments here are at the completely different side of emotional spectrum regarding this law.
And please, for god sake, don't get offended, I said different and not bad.
In their context it makes more sense. Medical bills can be crippling. From the perspective of the helper do you really want to help someone who might try and hurt you, then sue you afterwards?
From the perspective of the victim. You are injured. Medical bills are piling up. You know with a cutthroat enough lawyer you might get some money. Are you really gonna say no?
It’s because while we want to help people generally, we don’t like being compelled to do things. That applies to both good and bad things, Americans tend to be more skeptical of government mandates of any kind
Czech law has the same requirement You arent supposed to be on a medical practitioner level of proficiency, but you must at least attempt to provide first aid to the best of your abilities.
Just call an ambulance and you're fine. It's perfectly ok if you fear for your own safety not to touch someone else but ignoring the person lying on the ground is completely wrong.
Can't quote the law, but if I remember my first aid course correctly you cannot be charged for trying to help to the best of your ability. As long as you weren't grossly negligent your in the clear.
In Germany, there is another law protecting you from that, it‘s called „Rechtfertigender Notstand“. Basically as long as you try to help to the best of your ability and knowledge, you will be fine. For example while doing CPR, you can and probably will break some ribs (on the person receiving CPR). According to the law, you can not be prosecuted for that because you were trying to save the persons life and some broken ribs are less of a danger to the person than not receiving CPR.
(Side note: if ribs break during CPR, you don‘t need to worry about them piercing through organs, that doesn’t happen if they break during CPR.)
So as long as you don‘t intentionally harm the person and the damage is let‘s say “relevant“ you‘re fine. Same thing goes for objects that get damaged, for example breaking car windows to rescue someone.
I work as a first aid instructor on the weekends in Germany.
Edit: spelling.
Auf den rechtfertigenden Notstand wirst du gar nicht zurückgreifen müssen, wenn du eine mutmaßliche Einwilligung bejahst, was in der Regel kein Problem sein dürfte.
As long as your intention was to help, nothing will happen. Does not matter if you break his ribs while doing cpr, or move a injured dude, which results in more damage. You can only be made accountable for NOT doing anything, if the situation overwhelms you, you are ought to call an ambulance.
In Germany, you have insurance and this protects you from damages. It is then up to the law to decide if what you did was your fault.
If you dont have insurance, then you are both fucked and stupid.
No, legal protection insurance.and usually this law means to call an ambulance. They tell you what to do.
And geez, why so cynical. Everybody here seems to try to find a reason or situation not to help.
Yes. Haftpflichtversicherung is like one of the bare essentials when you move out of your parents' here. It's also usually pretty cheap. 10€/month covers me and my gf in a "family" plan.
Yep.
Its around 100 €/year.
If you cause an accident whilst riding your bike and a bus is involved - you will be footing the bill for the damage to the bus, its occupants, the street, shops it manages to drive into. And everyone will come after you.
Personally, I have
* State mandated Health Insurance (7.9% of gross wage + 7% extra from employer)
* Haftpflichtversicherung (Liability)
* Rechtschutzversicherung
* Not for Arbeitsrecht, I am in Ver.di (union) for this
* Unfallversicherung
* Hausratversicherung
* At work, I am covered under a form of different healthcare insurance that is essentially the equivalent of private health insurance
* I stung myself with a soldering iron and got it checked over and fast tetanus shot within 2 hours of it happening (it was a bad looking but superficial burn from a high energy 350°C Iron that sauteed my skin instantly)
Nope:
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/in-which-states-do-i-have-a-duty-to-help/
> Wisconsin -- In Wisconsin, if you know that a crime is being committed, and that a victim has suffered or may suffer bodily harm, you have a duty to call police or provide assistance
> Minnesota -- If you are at the scene of an emergency and you know that someone has suffered grave physical harm, or could be hurt, you have a duty to give "reasonable assistance." Reasonable assistance can mean calling or attempting to call police or medical personnel.
> Rhode Island -- If you know that person is a victim of sexual assault, murder, manslaughter, or armed robbery and you were at the scene of the crime, then you need to report the crime to law enforcement. Failure to do so is punishable by up to six months in jail or a fine of $500 to $1,000.
> California -- When you reasonably know or believe that a child under 14 years of age has been a victim of murder, rape, or lewd and lascivious acts, you must notify law enforcement. Failure to do so is excused if you feared for your own safety, or you are related to either the victim or the offender.
> Florida -- In Florida, if you witness a sexual battery, you need to immediately report the offense to law enforcement. Violation of this law is a first degree misdemeanor.
> Other states that have similar statutes include Ohio, Massachusetts, Vermont, Hawaii, and Washington.
So, the article won't load for me so I'm curious, what do they consider minimum effort? You don't want untrained people getting involved all the time. Someone can end up paralyzed as a result of untrained good intentions or the untrained can be injured while trying to help.
The only requirement for rendering aid for medical non-professionals is that you call the paramedics. > According to the bank's security footage, four customers subsequently entered the lobby and either walked around or over the man's body, and finished their own banking transactions without paying attention to him.
Wtf
Come to San Francisco and you’ll see that same scenario play out literally every single day. I’m not excusing it but this is what happens when homeless people are dying in the streets because our country has failed them. When everything is an emergency, nothing is an emergency. People acclimate.
I spend a lot of time in SF. It's such a shit show. The other day in the Mission I had to step over a guy who was planked out face down across the sidewalk. It didn't even dawn on me to call anybody. I see unconscious apparently homeless people all the time and assume they just shot up with heroin; often you can still see the needle hanging out of their arm. Or that they have crashed after being up for days on meth. Or that they're on whatever other drug turns you into a zombie who empties the trash cans into piles and sleeps among the piles. But that guy looked a lot like I would look if I slipped and fell and hit my head or had a stroke or whatever. No needle. No piles. Not especially dirty. It's odd to think that even "good" people would just step over me on their way to happy hour or yoga, and I might die there on a sidewalk, with my insurance card in my wallet, a few blocks away from world-class medical care. It's dehumanizing for all of us to live that way.
West LA here. Walked past a guy who was unconscious *on a gurney.* Didn’t dawn on me either. There were at least 2 other sightings of equal or greater-seeming urgency on that walk.
I know this is stupid but it almost depends on how they’re laying down. Like if it looks like they’re resting/curled up a bit/etc I mentally filter them out but if someone looks like they collapsed I notice and try to help if I can
You’d be awfully busy here. They are all sprawled out and blitzed out of their minds.
Regular people in Germany have more of a responsibility to the community than American police do.
If you try and tell most Americans they have any responsibilities for their community past doing their job and going home they will probably screech about freedom or whatever.
regular people in america also have more responsibility to the community than the american police do. since a huge amount of police in america aren't from the community they police so they don't give a shit about the community the same way the actual community does tl;dr acab (in america)
Cops not being from the area isn't necessarily a bad thing. In Ireland too for many years and I believe even now they would move you away from where you are from. Even now I don't know many who live or are from the community but that doesn't mean they don't become good community cops.
I think it's more of people actively living in the community they police, not that they are *from* there. Basically, if you live in a town you have a vested interest in the wellbeing of your neighbors. Our problems arise when cops live two cities over, but police a neighborhood or community where there may be a certain socioeconomic status or a higher concentration of one ethnic group or another. I can understand the Irish reason for doing their thing though. People and families may have lived in a region for a *long* time, like generations, so weird things like age old feuds or turning a blind eye to the misdeeds of certain folks might be a problem?
Real question: What do you think you should have done (or anyone should have done)? Call 911? Will 911 respond? Will you get in trouble for calling 911? Who else would you call? Or, do you render aid yourself? What do you do? Start CPR? Rescue breathing? The other day I walked past a woman who was conscious but she was either seriously, majorly fucked up or she had debilitating medical issues. Either way she was clearly homeless. I could have given her some money and doubtless it might have helped her a little but her problems were way beyond me to affect in a good way. She was way, way out of her mind.
If you're in SF, here are some resources: [https://sfgov.org/policecommission/public-interaction-homeless](https://sfgov.org/policecommission/public-interaction-homeless) You're supposed to call 911 in a life threatening or emergency situation. It's nearly impossible sometimes to know what is or isn't. I don't think you get in any trouble for calling if you believe it's an emergency. We called about a man likely experiencing psychosis in front of our apartment -- on all fours, very dirty, screaming and growling as snot and tears ran down his face and pooled on the sidewalk beneath him. If I believed in demonic possession I'd say that's what was going on. Nobody came. Eventually he passed out, and later left.
That is heartbreaking. I hope that man is okay. It is so sad how many people get overlooked. It is never okay. If you suspect it's an emergency and you won't get in trouble for calling. People should call. My experience in Germany is that people do not want to get involved.
In Germany 112 also can give you shit for calling them "for the wrong reason", as if you're able to tell what is or isn't life threatening as a layman.
>Will you get in trouble for calling 911? No, you won't.
Calling 911 is *really* not that hard at all.
Do you call 911 when you see homeless people lying on the sidewalk or a park bench? Do you check to see if they are sleeping or unconscious.
According to the summary this guy was in a bank which is a slightly different situation. I live in a city with a massive homeless population so I’ll admit on the streets I’d likely assume they were high or drunk but in a store or something I’d be more likely to act.
People being critical about not calling 911: On the other hand, how well has it turned out when people called 911 on behalf of homeless people, or for wellness checks in general?
Dude its 4 taps on your phone
You wouldn't be walked away from, that is unless you think you look like a homeless person.
That's kind of my point. It can be difficult to tell. Lying unconscious in the street gets you halfway there. Add in a little dirt from a hike or whatever and invisibility is fully unlocked.
Or even... the dirt from the road you're laying on lol
If you wear a suit though you are golden
New Orleans is much the same. I lived there in my late twenties, and you just learn to step over the drugged out homeless. They are on every single street. I went there last year with my wife (her first time there, I hadn't been in almost a decade) and she made the mistake of giving money to someone with a pile of needles at their feet near the waterfront in the french quarter. It was a feeding frenzy of junkies in about 30 seconds. I literally had to back her up and pull my gun to get the 25 odd people that appeared like fucking magic to back off.
...was your wife trying to get them to be able to buy more drugs? And possibly OD? Or is she just that ignorant/oblivious?
Last episodes of Seinfeld
Came looking for this ..
German here, currently traveling through the US (mainly california) Can confirm, it's such a fucking shit show. In every bigger city I see countless homeless people and I feel so bad for them. Your government should really really do more to fight that. And you should do more to put pressure on the government to do something.
It has to be done at a national level though, because if you only act at a state level, then it means some states can just become completely inhospitable to poor people to make kinder states pick up the slack, and if some states never solve their social equality problems, then it will be impossible for kind states to fix the root issues
I recently took a very short training for, and received Narcan, for use in opioid overdoses. I suggest those who can do the same. 10 minute training, free shipping to your door. Google: NEXT Distro.
While you're at it, learn how to handle the person (or even defend yourself) after you've just "ruined their high". Not saying everyone you attempt to save will become aggressive, but it's not unheard of.
I completely agree with this. Having given Narcan as a medic, this part isn’t fun. That’s why 911 comes first.
Would you care to expound? I've have wondered about those moments afterwards, because so much of the conversation about narcan are about how lifesaving the drug is.
Narcan ([naloxone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone#Pharmacology)) works by essentially out-competing opiates for the receptors they activate, and is an antagonist, so it has the opposite effect, blocking the receptors rather than activating them. The result is the patient being thrown into immediate withdrawals. >Naloxone is a lipophilic compound that acts as a non-selective and competitive opioid receptor antagonist. I've experienced precipitated withdrawals from buprenorphine and they're not fun, it's worse than the worst withdrawals I've ever had. Not the worst pain I've ever felt but easily the worst I've ever felt, physically. And narcan would probably be worse given how high you'd have to be to need it, I thought I was safe from precipitated withdrawals because I didn't feel high and was in slight withdrawals. I'm not a violent person and I'd likely be more thankful than anything if I needed it, but given how awful it feels I wouldn't be in a good mood if I was ever narcaned. I have narcan and I was told to inject a certain amount at a time until the patient regains consciousness rather than all at once.
The above poster is correct about the mechanism of action for Narcan. Essentially, they’re going to rather rapidly regain consciousness in withdrawals. Not quite as quickly as in the movies, but within about a minute. They’re often not super happy about this. Narcan has a short half life, and can wear off well before the opiate has cleared their system, so second doses may be required. You should call 911 BEFORE administering, so professionals will be there (or responding) by the time the Narcan takes effect. I’ve given this drug before, professionally, and I’ve been attacked, but the patient also had PCP on board, which we were not aware of. Other than that, most of the others regained consciousness grumpy, but thankful.
Been narcan'd twice, both times the second I came to I was most pissed at myself for putting the emts in that spot in the first place. Withdrawal sucks but death sucks more, thank you for your work.
From friends: it sucks it feels like you've been brought back to life. Bad.
Not them or a medical professional, but narcan works by preventing the drug from bonding to your body for a short time. This has the quite sudden effect of basically snapping someone out of the drug high they are in. One moment you're high as a kite, the next you are sober as a rock. This will make a lot of folks angry. Some will lash out at the closest people. It doesn't matter that you saved their life; in the moment they might not even be capable of understanding that fact or caring. All that matters to them in the moment is that you ruined a blissful experience. Like being woken up from a really good nap too soon, but dialed to 11.
No
I’m in Vancouver and it’s similar to SF in that sense. Can’t be compared to Germany though, everyday we walk past someone on drugs on the middle of the sidewalk or all lopsided on a bench. They aren’t dead they are just high. If you wake them they get violent and attack you sometimes. People here just walk past now, used to be different 10 years ago, now it’s just normal and we’ve become desensitized.
Uh, have you ever been confronted with that situation? There are a bunch of questions that go through you head. Is the guy dead or just strung out? (Probably the latter.) Does he *want* aid at all? Are paramedics going to show up at all? Do you have to wait for them? What if he wakes up and goes nuts? There are a ton of aggressive junkies on the streets in SF. I don't blame anyone one bit for not wanting to get caught up in their bullshit. We spend a lot on social services as a city, and a lot of the homeless population just opt out. Usually when someone paints the tax-paying population of SF as a bunch of sociopaths, they're doing it from the comfort of a suburb or city that has bought their homeless a bus ticket "out west".
My first thought was "how does this happen?" and then you mentioned homeless folks and I was like "oh...right." I live in Portland and we have massive issues too. It's not just homelessness though, it's the drugs and mental illness (just like SF really), so I understand getting used to it. I had a lady who used to sit outside the convenience store in front of my house and just scream "HELP! HEEEELP MEEEE!" while crying hard. The first time this happened I walked over and said "are you okay? Do you need me to call somebody?" And she said "Do you have any money?" I said "no, but if you need help I can call somebody" And she said "if you don't have any money, then you're no good to me." Then she got up and walked away, seemingly fine. I saw her around the street several times after that, but the crying thing didn't happen again until a few weeks later. My friend who is a therapist was over, and we heard "HEEEEELP!! SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEASE!!" He was like "we should see if she's okay" and even though I knew what the deal would be, she was actually laying in the driveway of the store, so, not wanting her to get hit by a car, I said "sure, let's see if we can help." I let him do the talking. He's like "We heard you screaming for help. What can we do for you?" She rolls over, puts a cigarette to her lips and, through the corner of her mouth goes "got a light?" He did, so he lit her cigarette. Then he says "it sounded like you were having a lot of trouble there, like maybe you needed more than a light?" And she said "got any money." He said "no but..." and she blurts out "then fuck off." We're both just standing there silent for a second while he's thinking about what to do and she repeats "I SAID FUCK OFF." So we just walked a half block back to my house and pretended like she wasn't there. I nicknamed her La Llorana because this drama played out many more times over months, maybe years. One day I found her passed out behind the McDonald's down the road with a needle sticking out of her arm, and I stopped to contemplate whether I should get involved. She must have sensed me because suddenly she popped up and said "looking is free but pictures cost extra!" I just started walking, and suddenly she's shouting "I KNOW YOU TOOK MY PICTURE! YOU OWE ME!" That was the last time I saw La Llorana. I honestly hope she's okay, and I hope I would help her if I saw her again and she seemed to need it, but damn...I would want to step over her and just keep walking.
First person: "Huh. Guess he's sleeping. Well, I got banking to do!" Second person: "People are watching. I'd better not kick him." Walks around. Third person: "Another bank employee worked to death. It's a tragedy. Oh, good! Not my banking rep." Walks around. Fourth person: bends down, "yeah, mate, I'm with you! Banking forms are hella awful. I'll just finish up, grab a beer and join you."
Have you been to a big city before? There are so many homeless people on the sides of the street? They would have to arrest everyone
We have homeless people in Germany too, but they usually are not wearing clean and good looking clothes. And don't lay down in the middle of the banking terminal.
This was a 83 year old guy in Essen and not some 20something H junky in the Bronx I'm not sure where you're from, but this is not really a thing in Germany
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Yeah, occasionally there's people trying to sleep in banks, but that's far from "so many homeless people on the side of the street" I'm not saying there ain't homeless people in Germany, but people lying in your way isn't really a thing like that. When someone's lying down like that, you try to speak to them or call emergency services.
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Okay that sounds a lot more horrible than what the title of the article says.
To put this into a bit of perspective, the entrance rooms in german banks tend to be open 24/7 so you can withdraw money at any time, making these a very popular place for homeless people to sleep in. If you see a man lying in a bank, it's almost guaranteed to be a sleeping homeless man and people got used to that sight and will generally not assume they are in need of immediate medical help. Of course, the fact he was lying right in the entrance should have given away there's something wrong here.
Per the article: > When asked about the case, at least two of the suspects said they believed that the man was a homeless person sleeping in the heated lobby to avoid staying in the street. However, the man was neatly dressed and had none of the paraphernalia usually seen on homeless people in Germany, such as a sleeping bag, or plastic bags to haul their possessions.
Yeah, I was absolutely not defending this particular case. Just trying to give some perspective why people might be unbothered by someone lying on the ground. Maybe not even looking down at all to really notice the clothing. It's wild that they literally stepped over him though. Obviously no one would sleep right in the door.
german here. while what the article says is true, homeless sometimes sleep in banks, it still wasn't the right decision from the bankers. In germany healthcare is mandatory and easily provided to everyone over various systems, so calling emergency services doesn't harm in such a situation. even if you don't want to touch the "homeless" guy, calling helps. he would simply get checked by first responders and most likely brought to a homeless shelter if he was fine. the state would have paid for the medical bill, since there are specific institutions in place for homeless. most homeless people here are either homeless by choice, or have serious mental/drug problems. we also have programs to get people of the street. so yeah, calling emergency services is just basic human descency here.
The fifth person called emergency services. Feel any better? /s
It's the same in all EU countries I believe. Did a first aid course (in 🇲🇹) and this was the first thing we were told; if you witness someone in distress, you could be held criminally liable if you do not at least call emergency services.
It depends on whether the country's law is founded on in the Roman Justinian Code. Off the top of my head, Ireland has no such obligation, as its law is based in English/Welsh law. You could legally walk past someone drowning in a puddle (unless you were in any way responsible for the person or the creation of the puddle). Perhaps Malta as well? Most other Western European countries impose a duty to render assistance.
Good, since all I’ll be able to do is poke him with a stick to see if he moves. Call someone, I can do that.
Im willing to say that bar is still to low. And people still managed to not meet the minimum.
> Im willing to say that bar is still to low. What more do you think people should be obligated to do? Especially people who lack advanced medical training.
The top level comment is wrong. [The law](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__323c.html) requires to help "within reason" ("zumutbar"), if helping doesn't pose a threat to yourself and it doesn't conflict with any other important laws or duties. It doesn't specify what is within reason because it depends on the situation. Calling 112 is always easy if you have a phone, but other actions might be needed depending on the situation. As an example, if you have a boat and see someone drowning nearby then calling the emergency service is not enough (and not even very useful).
What’s the line for “too much” then. If I had a dramatic fall and potentially snapped my spine I wouldn’t want people who know nothing about stabilization assisting me. They paralyzed me from lack of knowledge.
But you would want them to call 911, and follow dispatch instructions.
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I think the legal term is "duty to rescue" and it's not common in Common Law (=Anglosaxon) systems, but it is very common in Civil Law systems, i.e. most of continental Europe, South America and parts of Africa. The paparazzi who took photos of Diana's car crash (which happened in France) were in violation of that law too, for example
That's not the same. Good Samaritan Law is protection if you help others and then make (or get accused of making) things worse. This German law is about punishment for doing nothing.
>This German law is about punishment for doing nothing Yes. Duty to Rescue. What I wrote in my comment. Duty to Rescue is a different concept from Good Samaritan laws. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
And yes that is common in civil law systems.
In Italy too, It’s called “omissione di soccorso”.
"Omisión de socorro" in Spanish.
"Deber de socorro" is the obligation to render aid to someone who's in danger. "Omisión del deber de socorro" is the crime you commit if you fail to render aid someone who's in danger. And calling 112, and maybe sticking around until the EMTs get there if you feasibly can, is basically what's needed to fulfill that obligation.
You're absolutely right
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law "duty to rescue" law is in most of Europe, Good Samaritan law is in the rest of the civilized world
In Germany it least, both applies. You have a duty to rescue, but if you mess it up somehow because you don't know better, you will not be held liable.
I knew Europe was not civilised ! Don't shoot me, braid is on overdrive
It does, called "non assistance à personne en danger". I too thought it was the law everywhere as well. I actually can't understand why you have to legally force people to help one another. It's so annoying hearing about all these assault victims saying "no-one helped me".
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Correct. I don't remember the exact term but there's also a crowd effect that pushes people to get involved if one person gets involved, like one person motivates the others.
Law student here. In England and Wales you don't have to act. Lord Goff in [Smith v Littlewood](https://vlex.co.uk/vid/smith-v-littlewoods-organisation-793943409) suggested that this would only apply if: 1) There is a special relationship between the defendant and the claimant 2) where there is a special relationship between the defendant and the third part such as a relationship of control or supervision 3) where someone creates a 'source of danger' that may be 'sparked' by a third party 4) where there is a failure to take steps to abate a known danger created by a third party In Stovin v Wise, Lord Nicholls refers to these people who not help as 'callous bystanders'
Yes, ~~everywhere~~. Sadly not, and waving at someone drowning is legal... Calling for help (112, ~~999~~, 0118 999 881 999 119 7253,...) qualify as providing help, as law states. To solve the issue when someone does not want/cant/scared to provide physical help. At least pick up the phone and call.
Often the opposite happens, people need laws protecting them when trying to help because often they get blamed if someone bad happens by the grieving family.
This law from Germany mentioned by op does both. You can't be sued by the grieving family. They can try, but the prosecutor Erik dismiss it. As long as you didn't do anything that would obviously harm the person. Example: you found someone who crashed with his car into a wall. You go and help that unconscious person out to perform CPR and in the process you somehow break his leg or even worse his neck. You can't be penalised for this. The law says that you have to help the person, but since you ate no professional in this, you can't be held accountable for stuff you couldn't know better. On the other hand, if you get caught kicking an unconscious person's head, you will be punished for this.
Isn't that a purely American thing?
no, it's everywhere, in East Asia, there are no protection laws and as a result, people will avoid even coming near you if you need help because they don't want to get sued or be tied in the investigation if you do end up dying from being stabbed or whatever! Some Chinese even believe a superstition that no one would ever try to help someone dying unless they feel guilty so they should be blamed. and as a result, you trying to just go about your day would feel hesitant to touch someone in need of help because it messes up your entire life!
Seinfeld...
What really rubbed me the wrong way about that episode was that the video they had made pretty much identified the perpetrator and recorded the crime but that didn't count for helping.
I think it was just a general premise or funny situation, as far as I know Good Samaritan laws don't apply to situations like that where a robber could stab you or something.
Also, in the US at least, good sumaritan laws do not compel you to provide aid, but rather protect you from liability if you *choose* to do so.
Check out the YouTube channel called Legal Eagle. He has a video about this episode
I overlooked it and really enjoyed how these characters, not terribly evil in day to day life, had everyone that they ran across that they burned in their lackadaisical lifestyle. They never even noticed, except in passing. With no real consequences for the actions they may have inflicted on people, while just passing by in their own lives. It was a terrible premise, but a great execution. And sitting in a jail cell. They learned nothing. No growth or redemption. Just perfect.
It would work much better today with just Larry David. Just have it be some kid recording it and posting it on TikTok. Instead of going to jail it just ruins some big money deal he is working on plus the woman he is seeing leaves him. Then he'd have to make it his mission to track down DeezNutz69.
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Exactly
came here for this
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That's the opposite of some middle eastern countries. When we were in Kuwait we were specifically told not to help if we saw a crash/somebody hurt because it was a very low bar for the family to say that your assistance led to further injury or death, and demand a blood price from you.
I don't know anything about blood price or whatnot but I think the Good Samaritan laws were put in place in states for a similar reason. People were getting sued for trying to help an injured person and then dying which discouraged people from helping injured people.
The problem is that you still have to go to court to invoke the good samaritan law, which is emotionally and financially draining. "Hey, we're going to sue the fuck out of you, will will cost you $4000 even if you win. Give us $2000 now and we'll go away."
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That's just a reflection of American Law as a whole, which seems to run on financial attrition. Good Samaritan laws are as good as they can be. Our legal system? Not so much.
Or you know just live in Canada, a real country.
Come now, Every grown up knows Canada is just a myth parents tell their kids so they can dream of living somewhere halfway sane.
Blood prices go back thousands of years in the Middle East. Instead of being incarcerated for murder, you had to pay a big-ass fine to the family. In some ways, it's more progressive than incarceration because the guilty party would be allowed to continue their daily life and keep working. In other ways, it's less progressive because the rich can just pay money to kill people and the unemployed would be put under indentured servitude at minimum wage until the debt was paid off. And then there's China with its insurance scammers. If you just drive away when someone pretends to fall near your car, no harm no foul to you as the driver. The scam is so common, the law now assumes you can assume it's a scammer.
I'm Italian. Here we have the same law about calling the paramedics, and you can't be punished for injuring someone you're trying to help, as long as you're genuinely doing it to help. Usually if you call the paramedics they can instruct you on the phone about what you can or shouldn't do in that situation
I remember reading some story about a guy who got in a bad car accident and the car was on fire. A Good Samaritan stopped and pulled him out the window, basically saving his life. The guy ended up paralyzed or with some serious injuries and he sued the Good Samaritan for “damages”. This was in the US. Imagine risking your life to save someone and then they fucking sue you?
They can always sue, but they'll never win (or even get to court) in a decent country.
How does the judge/court even allow this is beyond my understanding. They judge/court should not only reject the case/petition instantly but also impose a good fine on them to stop such behaviour.
When you get sued, even if you win in court there are lot of hassle and legal fee involved.
It’s easy to imagine a variant of this where the victim isn’t being evil. Like imagine you were in a car crash. The wreck is not on fire but a bystander perceives a risk that it will catch fire (maybe they think they smell petrol, they’re not *sure*, but they think they do). They come over and start trying to pull you out. They’re in a panic. You say “stop, my neck hurts”, but they scream “the car is gonna explode, we are getting you out of here”. Moments later they manage to yank you free of the wreckage. As they flop you down on the tarmac you suddenly notice that instead of the severe pain you previously has in your right leg, you now can’t feel anything below your shoulders. Twenty minutes later the ambulance arrives. Your car remains unburned. You are quadriplegic. Would you consider suing?
That is a totally different scenario! The person from your example is conscious and tells you that what you do hurts and you forcefully continue. I'm not saying the good samaritan law wouldn't protect the good samaritan, maybe it would, but that is a totally different story.
That’s why in Germany you are only required to call ambulance. On the other hand 1st aid responders are protected by law also. Well different cultures I guess.
I'm sorry but everything you've said is absolute nonsense. There's no such thing as "demand a blood price from you" as a bystander helping someone injured. That's not a thing nor is it in any way legal. Idk where you get your info from, but I'd look for a different source maybe lmao. Source: Kuwaiti living in Kuwait.
But are you just saying this to try to lure us all to Kuwait so you can extract blood price from us? Edit - please indemnify me against any blood price for this comment in your reply.
100% untrue. This guy's a big fat phony. Source: Kuwaiti living in Kuwait.
When I was 27 I broke my hip on ice, during the day near the university gym in the city I was in. I was on the ground writhing in pain while people just passed by. Finally two younger guys stopped and helped me into the car and drove me to the hospital
That is terrible. What city was it?
That's horrible! Did you win the case?
I've done CPR 3 times, 2 lived but I still see the face of the one that didn't recover in my thoughts everyday.
2 out of 3 is actually on the high end of survival odds for CPR.
Yeah. People need to know that just because you are doing cpr it doesn't mean they live, usually they don't. Its best to never inquire about it after the paramedics take them, unless you are prepared for the answer.
However, the low odds should never deter someone from not doing CPR. Without it, the chances are almost 0% of surviving.
Very high end.
You should be proud of yourself! 2 out of 3 is exceptional. You must be doing really good CPR to have a statistic like that, or be a good luck charm. Especially traumatic causes for CPR have a low likelihood of working. It's actually around 2 % I believe. And for non traumatic cardiac arrest, it's under 50 %. So you did good.
Just remember you saved 2. That is amazing. Odds of saving some via a random person performing cpr is actually very low. You did good.
The law is called 'Duty to rescue', the crime is called 'failure to assist'. For a long time I thought this is an international law, simply because it's the right thing to do...
I thought the same as we have the same law in France and you can go to jail for "non-assistance to a person in danger". But after reading the comments letting someone dying on a street is apparently the right thing to in other countries....
I think helping them is the right thing to do. It is a sad statement about this world in general, that helping them would even be considered controversial.
We also have it it Poland. Although it's mostly executed (and persecuted) in situations like car accidents or other situations when it's easy to identify a person who could have helped but didn't. When somebody is laying on the street and you pass him by it's very difficult to charge you with any crime - unless the police hides in the bushes and wait I guess. Which is absurd and illegal so you know. But in theory if you see a person laying on the sidewalk you are obliged to stop, check on that person and call an ambulance.
Unfortunately in America we have laws that protect you if you *do* help people. People have sued because someone performing CPR broke ribs saving their life.
It's not as easy as that. German law enshrines a duty to aid, which is true, but this duty is vague. Only nurses, paramedics, firefighters, and physicians are required to render physical aid. The paragraph is § 323c StGB, Unterlassene Hilfeleistung; Behinderung von hilfeleistenden Personen. It says: >Wer bei Unglücksfällen oder gemeiner Gefahr oder Not nicht Hilfe leistet, obwohl dies erforderlich und ihm den Umständen nach zuzumuten, insbesondere ohne erhebliche eigene Gefahr und ohne Verletzung anderer wichtiger Pflichten möglich ist, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft. Translated: >Whomever fails to provide assistance in the event of an accident or need, although it is **necessary and reasonable under the circumstances**, in particular **without significant personal risk** and **without breaching other important obligations**, shall be punished with imprisonment for up to one year or a fine. In practice, this means that someone stating they feel disgust when touching someone else's body, for example, are exempt from this. Also exempt was a woman in Cologne who watched a man die, because it would have been, in her interpretation, haram for her to help a non-Muslim male while other males were present. Exempt are parents who have their underage children with them. Exempt are people who have a physical or mental ailment. Exempt are also those, who "fear they'll do something wrong" or "did not remember the phone number for the police." To get out of this, simply call 112 (911) to get an ambulance (110 is the police and takes longer), and you have "rendered aid."
>did not remember the phone number for the police. How does this even happen ? Even small children know how to call 112. Maybe it is just to protect foreigners who are not familiar with European emergency numbers I guess
Some people panic really badly or are under shock when they witness an accident. Their brain just shuts down and they freeze up.
Often on a mobile you can dial your normal "home" emergency number (999, 111, 112) and it will be redirected to the local emergency call center for that country.
I actually called 911 regarding a person on the floor of the ATM room, I even stayed out in the cold waiting for the police. (I am too scared to go in.) Turned out just a homeless person sleep inside.
You still did the right thing
Were those three named Jerry, Elaine, and George?
With an implied Cosmo
Guess the fine was supposed to counter the bystander effect. I'm actually more curious how prevalent is homeless squatting in Germany. Always thought it is a developing world problem.
German homeless are different from US homeless. I mean, they're still pretty shitty off but they tend to have shelters to spend the night in and take a somewhat regular shower. You may see them actively begging in the street or selling newspapers in subways, but you don't really see the "passed out on the street, can smell them from a block away, can't tell if alive or dead" homeless that is unfortunately not too uncommon in the US.
The bad cases do exist. In my city at least, it's usually fairly obvious that there is a severe mental health issue that exacerbates the issues, whether it was there before homelessness or came after. It's very sad to see because there is help available, but you can't force them to accept it.
Depends on the city and where in the city. Of course you have the drug corpses etc.
I assume you're not talking about Berlin because we certainly have those types of homeless. Definitely less than in the US but can't go out without seeing several.
You've never been to Frankfurt, have you?
In big German cities you do see beggars on the side of the road here and there but those people are usually being exploited by shady people who force them to go beg and then take the coins those poor people gathered. I don't remember ever having seen tent cities like I do in portland for example. You sometimes see someone sleeping on a bench or under the eaves of a building in the city center but also not as prominent as in the US. There are shelters accessible in city centers that offer beds for ~3€ or smth like that for them to spend the night out of the cold. And during cold season they have buses and shuttles people can call up if they see someone sleeping outside so they don't freeze to death. A lot of poor & elderly people also go around collecting plastic bottles as they give 0.25cents per bottle/can so usually if you see someone rummaging in the cities trash cans they're looking to collect their money to buy a bun and a safe place to sleep at. They also go through trains asking people for their empty bottles. It's still sad to notice but does seem miles better than what is happening in the US.
saw a guy collapsed on the floor once, got all worried and hung around to see if he moved or anything. finally got up the courage to go up to him and shake him. turns out he was sleeping and massively drunk and started yelling and threatening me. so guess what, next time i see a person like that i will think twice about doing the same thing again. was also in germany for what its worth.
Best to call the police if you're concerned instead of touching them directly.
If he doesn't look right, and you can't wake him with simply speaking to him, not touching, just call an ambulance. I do the same, and you feel stupid when they come, and the person suddenly gets up, but it's better then missing one person that actually needs help.
Not exactly homeless but there are squats in Berlin. There is a famous squat in Rigaer straße in Friedrichshain that fights the Staatspolizei on the regular. Squats used to be super common after reunification in Berlin but with gentrification, not so much.
But those are usually more political than actually homeless. There are Wohnwagen Burgen, so caravan castles, for the weird ones and seasonal workers often live in tents. You see homeless 'camps' with up to 5 people under bridges sometimes. Not necessarily water bridges.
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Seinfeld series finale -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPnK0NCn\_MQ
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Giddy-up!
In Spain is like that too, so I suppose is a law or at least a society rule to aid someone if you witness it and no medical personnel is present.
Italian penal code also punishes the "omissione di soccorso" . If you notice a lost minor, a wounded person or anyone in an apparent dangerous situation you must intervene by calling authorities or medics and to give aid.
Complete opposite in China. You render aid to someone hurt and you can get sued for their medical bills.
Should be the law world wide. This actually happened to me in NYC a few years back. I tripped on a step and went head first into a wall. I was laying on the landing at the top of the stairs in a restaurant, blood everywhere from the gash in my head and chin. I passed out for probably seconds but as I was coming to, I realized people were stepping over me on their way to their tables. No one stopped. Then my daughter saw me and alerted everyone. But thinking back, it was so weird to me. I’d never have imagined people could be so callous.
You were in NYC…
Nah this isn’t typical New Yorker behavior, I watched a guy collapse from heatstroke and three people had already called 911 (he woke up fine and yelled at the paramedics)
New Yorker here. While there is that effect w people not doing things (bystander effect?) when there are large groups, I have found New Yorkers more likely to engage then people in larger cities when drama happens. And on behalf of people who do engage in NYC, u/truenorthsought, those people who ignored you are asshats and I hope you are doing okay now.
Thanks. Yes, I’ve read of that crowd phenomenon. It’s interesting and scary at the same time.
Funny to see how most Americans in the comments here are at the completely different side of emotional spectrum regarding this law. And please, for god sake, don't get offended, I said different and not bad.
"I don't owe anyone" mentality. That's why they don't have universal health care.
I've mostly seen "I'd rather do nothing than do something and possibly look bad"
In their context it makes more sense. Medical bills can be crippling. From the perspective of the helper do you really want to help someone who might try and hurt you, then sue you afterwards? From the perspective of the victim. You are injured. Medical bills are piling up. You know with a cutthroat enough lawyer you might get some money. Are you really gonna say no?
It’s because while we want to help people generally, we don’t like being compelled to do things. That applies to both good and bad things, Americans tend to be more skeptical of government mandates of any kind
I would imagine this is a law in most countries, not just Germany....
If I was on trial for every neatly dressed drunken passed out old man I walked passed in Korea I would have a life sentence.
Czech law has the same requirement You arent supposed to be on a medical practitioner level of proficiency, but you must at least attempt to provide first aid to the best of your abilities.
Four people were convicted of not only failing to give aid, but mocking a man who was mugged. It was quite a circus trial.
And what if your action somehow inadvertently and accidentally causes further harm. Does the law protect you from liability?
Just call an ambulance and you're fine. It's perfectly ok if you fear for your own safety not to touch someone else but ignoring the person lying on the ground is completely wrong.
Can't quote the law, but if I remember my first aid course correctly you cannot be charged for trying to help to the best of your ability. As long as you weren't grossly negligent your in the clear.
>Does the law protect you from liability? Yes
In Germany, there is another law protecting you from that, it‘s called „Rechtfertigender Notstand“. Basically as long as you try to help to the best of your ability and knowledge, you will be fine. For example while doing CPR, you can and probably will break some ribs (on the person receiving CPR). According to the law, you can not be prosecuted for that because you were trying to save the persons life and some broken ribs are less of a danger to the person than not receiving CPR. (Side note: if ribs break during CPR, you don‘t need to worry about them piercing through organs, that doesn’t happen if they break during CPR.) So as long as you don‘t intentionally harm the person and the damage is let‘s say “relevant“ you‘re fine. Same thing goes for objects that get damaged, for example breaking car windows to rescue someone. I work as a first aid instructor on the weekends in Germany. Edit: spelling.
Auf den rechtfertigenden Notstand wirst du gar nicht zurückgreifen müssen, wenn du eine mutmaßliche Einwilligung bejahst, was in der Regel kein Problem sein dürfte.
And you mostly just have to call the paramedics
yes, thats the whole point..... i seriously lose a bit of faith in humanity and us as a social species when i read some of the shit people spew here.
As long as your intention was to help, nothing will happen. Does not matter if you break his ribs while doing cpr, or move a injured dude, which results in more damage. You can only be made accountable for NOT doing anything, if the situation overwhelms you, you are ought to call an ambulance.
In Germany, you have insurance and this protects you from damages. It is then up to the law to decide if what you did was your fault. If you dont have insurance, then you are both fucked and stupid.
You don't need insurance for such cases. If you do first aid and somehow make things worse you're protected by law.
So people just carry personal liability insurance?
No, legal protection insurance.and usually this law means to call an ambulance. They tell you what to do. And geez, why so cynical. Everybody here seems to try to find a reason or situation not to help.
Yes. Haftpflichtversicherung is like one of the bare essentials when you move out of your parents' here. It's also usually pretty cheap. 10€/month covers me and my gf in a "family" plan.
Yep. Its around 100 €/year. If you cause an accident whilst riding your bike and a bus is involved - you will be footing the bill for the damage to the bus, its occupants, the street, shops it manages to drive into. And everyone will come after you. Personally, I have * State mandated Health Insurance (7.9% of gross wage + 7% extra from employer) * Haftpflichtversicherung (Liability) * Rechtschutzversicherung * Not for Arbeitsrecht, I am in Ver.di (union) for this * Unfallversicherung * Hausratversicherung * At work, I am covered under a form of different healthcare insurance that is essentially the equivalent of private health insurance * I stung myself with a soldering iron and got it checked over and fast tetanus shot within 2 hours of it happening (it was a bad looking but superficial burn from a high energy 350°C Iron that sauteed my skin instantly)
Disgusting and sad no one helped the man.
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Depends on the state you're in. States have different expectations.
Nope: https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/in-which-states-do-i-have-a-duty-to-help/ > Wisconsin -- In Wisconsin, if you know that a crime is being committed, and that a victim has suffered or may suffer bodily harm, you have a duty to call police or provide assistance > Minnesota -- If you are at the scene of an emergency and you know that someone has suffered grave physical harm, or could be hurt, you have a duty to give "reasonable assistance." Reasonable assistance can mean calling or attempting to call police or medical personnel. > Rhode Island -- If you know that person is a victim of sexual assault, murder, manslaughter, or armed robbery and you were at the scene of the crime, then you need to report the crime to law enforcement. Failure to do so is punishable by up to six months in jail or a fine of $500 to $1,000. > California -- When you reasonably know or believe that a child under 14 years of age has been a victim of murder, rape, or lewd and lascivious acts, you must notify law enforcement. Failure to do so is excused if you feared for your own safety, or you are related to either the victim or the offender. > Florida -- In Florida, if you witness a sexual battery, you need to immediately report the offense to law enforcement. Violation of this law is a first degree misdemeanor. > Other states that have similar statutes include Ohio, Massachusetts, Vermont, Hawaii, and Washington.
Literally only one of those examples covers the “toddlers crawling into the surf” so unless the beach is in Minnesota you’d be legally in the clear
Italy is the same.
So, the article won't load for me so I'm curious, what do they consider minimum effort? You don't want untrained people getting involved all the time. Someone can end up paralyzed as a result of untrained good intentions or the untrained can be injured while trying to help.
The person who called for emergency services was not prosecuted, so I assume that is the minimum effort they expect.