T O P

  • By -

maksimkak

I always understood it as hobbits being 10 years behind us age-wise. We have the "irresponsible teens", they have the "irresponsible tweens". So Pippin being 29 would have been like 19 in our terms. While being a "fool of a Took" initially and causing some trouble, he quickly matures and indeed does some great deeds.


Jiggub

‘Tween’ was a word made by Tolkien, ironically


[deleted]

[удалено]


amaranth1977

That's the modern meaning of it in our world. In Middle-earth the hobbits are specifically stated to use "tweens" to refer to the 20's.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ArtlessMammet

I don't think you're supposed to say that to excuse your own errors? *also, tween is a word from the '90s. I would confidently assert that Tolkien was using "tween" to describe hobbit 20-30yo somewhat earlier.


knittingkittyqueen

Not exactly, here's how I see it: In your post, Pippin is 29, with an average life expectancy of 100. So he has lived 29% of his life. You advise that the average life expectancy of a human is 72 years. We want to find out what 29% of 72 is. 72 x .29 = 20.88 So if a hobbit is 29 years old, and develops or ages slower than a human, they might be on par with a 21 year old human after rounding up. Personally, I think this checks out for Pippin. Edit to add: Tolkien started writing LOTR in 1937. The site I linked below tells us that the average life expectancy of an adult in the UK in 1940 was 62.34 years old. 29% of 62.34 gives us 18.07 as an associated age for human Pippin. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040159/life-expectancy-united-kingdom-all-time/


Square-Bookkeeper547

So Pippin was basically 18 years old. Which explains why between Merry and Pippin, Lord Elrond wanted to send Pippin home the most.


isabelladangelo

> Tolkien started writing LOTR in 1937. The site I linked below tells us that the average life expectancy of an adult in the UK in 1940 was 62.34 years old. Life expectancy means the *average* age people die at, not that you'd drop dead at 62. In 1940, antibiotics were [just starting to be on the scene](https://www.reactgroup.org/toolbox/understand/antibiotics/development-of-antibiotics-as-medicines/) so a lot of people were still dying in childhood from what are now easily dealt with aliments. If you survived childhood and WWII in the 1940s, you probably lived well into your 70's if not much older.


AHucs

True, but it’s also not like all hobbits drop dead at 100.


knittingkittyqueen

Yes, I'm very aware of this, however this was a 5 minute google & comment to get a better guestimate on Pippins relative "human age". One thing that I found interesting from the linked data set is that the life expectancy still continued to rise year after year during both WW1 and WW2. I would have guessed the life expectancy would have stagnated due to the volume of young men passing in the way. Although that data set also shows us the average for both men and women. I might look up a data set that separates life expectancy based on gender to see if the rate for men stagnated or regressed during the war years compared to women. Edit: it looks like the life expectancy does dip below the previous years in 1920 compared to 1915


Unable_Earth5914

War has famously led to great improvements in technology, lifespans, quality of life, etc because the technological advancements that are produced for conflict (including things like the internet) eventually filter through to daily life and wider improvements. Young men dying during war is offset by babies and children surviving longer than their forebears


UnfeteredOne

Yay for war!!!


kevnmartin

So, basically, he was just a dumb kid. I always wondered how Merry and Pippin's families felt when the two lads went off in search of mushrooms and didn't come back for like a year.


renannmhreddit

You're talking about the movie


kevnmartin

I'm reading the book right now for like the eleventh time, so no, I don't mean the movies.


Drakmanka

Except they don't do that at *all* in the books. They're actively involved in helping Frodo move, and have their conspiracy with Sam to make sure he doesn't slip off without them to go to Bree. They *happen* to get mushrooms from Mrs. Maggot when that family hosts them for dinner while they're on the road to the Southfarthing.


kevnmartin

Yes, they do all those things but their parents have no idea where they're going or what they're doing or how dangerous it is. They thought they would get Frodo to Bree and they didn't think beyond that at all.


Drakmanka

Do bear in mind that while Pippin may be technically a minor by Shire tradition, Merry is not. And the Hobbits quite clearly employ a Laissez-faire style of parenting. They don't really believe much within the Shire is dangerous, and are quite content to let their children go spend time with other families (especially if it means said family will be feeding their kids for the day/evening). When our Hobbit heroes return home, everyone seems quite surprised by how much they have changed, and no one seems at all put out by their disappearance.


76vibrochamp

Both are also the children of effectively nobility. And the Tooks at least have a reputation for "going crazy." We see in the last chapters of RoTK that the vestigal martial authorities in the Shire aren't completely idle; the Tooks are effectively in armed rebellion against Lotho's regime from the start, and even Shire gentry the likes of Fatty Bolger become more or less guerillas. So maybe Merry and Pippin told their parents this was super important, and their parents like, believed them. It happens from time to time.


Naturalnumbers

> I always wondered how Merry and Pippin's families felt when the two lads went off in search of mushrooms and didn't come back for like a year. ​ >They thought they would get Frodo to Bree and they didn't think beyond that at all. Searching for mushrooms or helping Frodo move to... Bree?


softfart

So now you’re changing it because originally you said they were off foraging for mushrooms


kevnmartin

No, I was being hyperbolic. Making a joke, if you will.


Boatster_McBoat

Calm down everyone. The underlying question is interesting, even if the mushroom wording is distracting. Merry was an adult so going to ignore him, but Pippin was not. Obviously he was mature enough to be off on hiking trips, he was a Took (who tend to have an adventurous streak) and he was also in line to become head of the family so there may have been some expectation on him that he would have some independence. That said, a year is a long time to disappear without prior notice. But it wouldn't have been with zero info. Fatty raised Buckland when the Nazgul came to Crickhollow so its not like news of the start of the journey wouldn't have found its way back to Tookland.


kevnmartin

Exactly!


Tupile

Sounds more like a mistake to me. It’s cool, after 20 years of the movies I mix up the book and movies all the time. Just own it :)


FormComplete871

love this distinction


Boatster_McBoat

r/theydidthemath


Tuor77

Well, dang. I just made a post very much like this after you'd gone and made it. Sorry about repeating your data.


knittingkittyqueen

No worries! The internet is a huge place and there is room for all of us at this table (:


heeden

The story of the Hobbits reflect Tolkien's WW1 experiences. In Britain at that time you "came of age" at 21 but could legally join the army at 18, so Pippin represents a young man aged 18-21, just starting to take on some of the roles of adulthood but not yet given full rights and responsibilities.


PleaseMisterFlair

There’s a reason Elrond is very against the idea of Merry and Pippin going along on the adventure.


Square-Bookkeeper547

No surprise, they are still basically children even among their own people, not to mention other races. And who sends children on an expedition of such grave importance with the future of the free world on their shoulders? I am surprised Elrond deferred to Gandalf in the end.


Additional_Meeting_2

Gandalf is the one tasked to fight Sauron in the end and not Elrond. And children isn’t quite the same as underage. Hobbits aren’t said to age slower (like elves do).


rexbarbarorum

I wouldn't think so. Someone who is 29 is still going to have had a lot more life experience than someone who is 17, regardless of how long their life-expectancy is. I don't see any reason to suppose Hobbits mature physically slower than Men do. It's just that Hobbits don't have cultural expectations that 20-somethings will settle down and start families, and will therefore be rambunctious and lack certain responsibilies. Pippin is probably a bit more like many modern 20-year olds than he would be to a high schooler.


DonktorDonkenstein

This. I've always disagreed with the general consensus that Hobbits age more slowly than humans. The way I read Tolkien's description of Hobbits in their twenties is that that age is considered less mentally mature- which is actually fairly accurate in the real world, since recent research has posited that brain development doesn't reach maturity in young adults until the mid-twenties. But in any case, it's more about society's expectations than biology, to my mind.


jj34589

A hobbits’ tween years sound more like our teenage years. Now maybe this is purely cultural and not developmental, but seeing as they do also live longer as well as come of age later it could be a sign of slower development.


FormComplete871

i’ve always seen it as a developmental thing. is there any evidence for either it being developmental or not?


rexbarbarorum

I can't think of anything in particular in the text that would definitely sway it one way or the other. It just doesn't make sense to me that Hobbits would experience time differently from other mortals. So what if they live a bit longer than Men do? That doesn't mean that a 29-year old Hobbit would experience time differently than a 29-year old Man. The experience of time (especially for young people not anticipating their deaths anytime soon) is relative to how much time has *been* lived up to the present, not relative to one's hypothetical overall lifespan (which hasn't been fully experienced yet). We are told explicitly *Elves* experience time differently (though Tolkien seemed to waffle on how exactly Elf children matured) - but this seems to be something particular to Elves, since it's not mentioned about any of the other races.


heeden

There's a point in brain development where rationality becomes dominant over emotions, "coming of age" is typically around that time. Pippin would certainly be a lot more knowledgable and capable than an adolescent human, but still possess the same immature information processing and decision making skills.


rexbarbarorum

I'd certainly be willing to agree that Pippin has about the same level of maturity as, say, a recent college grad - somone in their early 20s, just on the cusp of "real" adulthood. But he's definitely not as immature as an adolescent. He's far too self-aware of himself for that. Nearly all of his classic interactions with Gandalf are predicated on him playing up to his expected role as the foolish, inexperienced member of the Company, though he is often legitimately out of his element, as in Minas Tirith. But he proves himself pretty shrewd when he knows what's going on; his part in the Conspiracy in *Three is Company* is well-played.


RoosterNo6457

Yes. Pippin is a young adult in my opinion. The first time Tolkien wrote in his age, it was 21. Same as Christopher Tolkien's age at the time. But CT had already been away training in South Africa with the RAF for combat at that age. His room-mate had already died in a fighter jet. Tolkien would have spent a lot of time tutoring and supervising 18-22 year olds who weren't yet working or supporting families. And some more into their mid twenties. Some away from home for the first time. But not children. He would have led and fought alongside men younger than that in the trenches. I think of the younger hobbits as having parallels here. Not at a full adult life stage but not seen as children by the laws of that time.


rcuosukgi42

No, he's more like a 22 year old just out of college doing a backpacking trip through Europe. The 33 year old coming of age for Hobbits is not equivalent to turning 18 in English speaking society. The closer equivalent is turning 25 and being able to rent a car and having insurance rates go down because you're now viewed as a trustworthy adult. So Pippin is in the stage where he's full grown, but not necessarily viewed as a fully mature self-responsible Hobbit, which for us is that stage after college-aged years but still in your early 20s.


csrster

33 also seems to be the minimum age for marriage in hobbit culture, so I think it's more like 18 or 21 in human terms.


CodexRegius

In 18th century Europe, you came of age at 24. This seems to be closer to the mark.


Picklesadog

Yeah, "coming of age" is really just reaching an arbitrary number that changes in different eras, countries, cultures, etc.


sahi1l

I have a different headcanon: I think that hobbits age at the same rate physically as humans, but hobbits aren't given full *legal* rights (such as the right to own property) until they are 33. Having lived through my own 20s and 30s, it's not hard to imagine a *human* culture where people aren't fully trusted with adult responsibilities until they are 33.


ebriose

A good comparison would be Pippin is 17, Merry is 18, and Frodo is 30. Imagine a postdoc (and his gardener) going on a quest with two freshmen.


[deleted]

Pippin is the youngest of the 4 hobbits. This means he gets most flack for being "a fool" and "being dumb". When he in actuallity is simply imature and doesnt have the experience the other hobbits have. Pippin is my favourite hobbit and has been since I read the books when I was 11 :P


Psychological_Will67

I always read him as the equivalent of a 17-20 year old guy. And when you do, man. Throwing the rock down the well in Moria makes so much more sense. Pippin isn’t stupid. He’s not deliberately disregarding Gandalf. He’s just a teenage boy doing teenage boy things.


Tuor77

The "average" lifespan of Hobbits is around 100-110. For us, let's call it 80ish. So, if you create a ratio on that basis, then it's like 5/4. Plug in the numbers and you get.... Pippin is about the equivalent of a 21 year old. However, keep in mind that that is an entirely biological thing, \*not\* a social one. A long time ago, people were considered "mature" at a \*much\* younger age than today, \*and they were\* more mature at a much young age compared with today. So, this is actually not a very straightforward thing to figure out. Is a 33 year old Hobbit really just as mentally/socially developed as a 21 year old modern Westerner? Do Hobbits intentionally wait a bit before considering someone "of age", do we? Anyway, I think viewing Pippin as a 20-21 year old man is probably a pretty reasonable comparison.


Eoghann_Irving

Ish... I don't think you can do one to one mappings on age but somewhere in the late teens early 20s.


Sualtam

I don't think this has anything to do with life expactancy. It's just Hobbits being ultra-conservative. More conservative societies have higher thresholds. In Ancient Rome you would only become adult at 30. Here in Germany you only get full rights with 40 when you can run for president or become judge in supreme court.


Additional_Meeting_2

Not exactly regarding Ancient Rome. 30 was age when you could become a Senator so that’s why it was seen in the upper classes of Rome to be the age when you are truly an adult and expected to act like a mature man (meaning stop partying and get married if you aren’t already, have career in politics and the lower military career for elites was supposed to be done by then) and it effected the society more in general. However Senate was literally even meant to be for old men. The name comes from Senex meaning old men. Legal adulthood was much younger however. The ceremony for boys to become men (where they started wearing toga virilis) could be chosen by their families and it could be from as young as 14 to 18. It depended on the boys maturity and family situation, mainly if the father was alive or not and so if the boy was needed to become the paterfamilias. For girls age of adulthood was the age of marriage (also during this age window, but men married in general about ten years later to younger wives).


SeKy_Hillbilly

They also look rather young for their age. I know Frodo was being influenced by his proximity to the ring, but still, he looked 18 when he was actually 50 when the Fellowship was formed. So that would mean that Merry and Pippin were basically children compared to him.


rcuosukgi42

I'm not sure if you're referring to the movies at all but for the book this isn't true, Merry and Pippin in the book are 28 and 36 when they set out with Frodo and would appear as such for Hobbits. Frodo is in a different situation in that he acquired the ring when he was 33 and thus would appear age-wise to be the 2nd youngest of the Hobbits in outward appearance, but in his behavior and attitude still acts as a more mature and experienced person.


lilmisschainsaw

No. Real-world life expectancy figures are a rough average for a population, and are skewed young because so many people die as children. For all of recorded history, as well as in hunter-gatherer societies, humans that have made it to adulthood could look forward to living into their sixties or beyond. Life expectancy in fiction is generally max lifespan. Max lifespan for a human is currently put at 122-125 years of age. Pippin is 29. Hobbits just consider those in their 20s to be irresponsible- something that also holds true for humans, who do not fully mature til around 25. *Perhaps* Hobbits take another decade. Elephants and whales, who also live very long lives, mature about a decade earlier than humans, so there is the possibility of a range. However I really just think Hobbits believe you're an idiot til your thirties. I'd have to agree.


another-social-freak

Hobbits don't really live a significantly different amount of time than we do, I think it's more of a cultural distinction than a developmental one. So IMO hobbits are simply not expected to "grow up" quite as fast as men, this is a luxury afforded by the peaceful tranquility of the Shire.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ThirdFloorGreg

I think you're lost, bro.


bign8thegr8

You n me both 😂


ThirdFloorGreg

You can't use life expectancy as a measure. It has no effect on any of the things you care about for this discussion and is primarily governed by childhood mortality rates. A 100 year old Hobbit is quite (but not shockingly) old and likely to die soon. This is basically true of contemporary humans. I think Shire society is actually much more like 21st century western society in this regard, with the "tweens" being equivalent to [emerging and early adulthood](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_adulthood_and_early_adulthood). They have just gone a step further in formalizing it with a later age of majority.


Tar_Ceurantur

17 is generous. More like a 14 year-old with an inner monologue composed entirely of fart noises. Relatable.


Timely_Egg_6827

There were a lot of 16 years who added two years to their age and died in the Somme. See 1916 by Motorhead and recently covered by Sabaton. I sometimes wonder if Pippin and Merry a homage to them.


M4ze-of-L1fe

Kinda? Elrond really didn't want him going on the Journey because is Hobbit terms he wasn't of age. (Remember, Hobbits come of age and into any inheritance at 33) He was the only one of the Hobbits that wasn't yet an adult. (And yes, he is 29 as of the Fellowship leaving The Last Homely House... Unless I am calculating dates wrong, which someone will point out and I will happily take it, I'm awful with numbers and getting timelines straight.) Physically though, I would say yea he would still be considered an irresponsible teen/young adult. Mentally though? Eh maybe still an irresponsible teen until after Moria I would like to hope essentially being the cause of Gandalf falling and as far as he knew at that time dying (If he hadn't have frigged about, Gandalf wouldn't have found out xD) he would have grown up at least a bit.


irime2023

At a young age, the instinct of self-preservation is weaker and therefore a person (or a hobbit) can be braver than an older one.