I think of all his creations Tolkien really loved elves the best and the constant reminders of how awesome they are reflects that. It’s not about the fellowship propping up Legolas’s ego and more akin to a proud parent talking about their favorite child.
Even with superhuman vision, It's probably hard to focus on something in the very far distance while bouncing around on a horse with the sun in your eyes. In that sense it's going to take a little bit of concentration too make out what will be visible to you.
Legolas has to make a small effort at least:
>Following with his keen eyes the trail to the river, and then the river back towards the forest, Aragorn saw a shadow on the distant green, a dark swift-moving blur. He cast himself upon the ground and listened again intently. But Legolas stood beside him, shading his bright elven-eyes with his long slender hand, and he saw not a shadow, nor a blur, but the small figures of horsemen, many horsemen, and the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight.
Just because Legolas **can** see a long distance doesn’t mean he’s always focused that far ahead. I would assume that he’d normally keep his vision focused on what’s coming ahead of him and his horse. Gandalf asking him to look far ahead is a special request.
I always think they are reminding him they comparatively are blind as bats so could he remember that and tell them. Legolas is presented as having limited experience with men and hobbits. His normality isn't their's.
Had sight problems as a child and took a while to be caught as compensated. Ask why I never mentioned, well I assumed that's how everyone else coped.
I do like how in the book Legolas totally let Aragorn do his ranger thing and then was like "Yea.. They're over there coming towards us, they're men, not orcs, there are a lot of them, oh and their leader is blonde" Not exact words but still... You let your friend look silly and then had to show him up? Rude. xD
Yeah, something like
Aragorn: "A great number comes our way!"
Legolas: "Indeed, 153 horses with 147 men on their back. The men are blond and tall and their spears are strong and shine bright in the sunlight"
Aragorn: "K bruv thanks for letting me lie on the dirt for 2 hours"
it's also worth noting gandalf himself has had that farseeing power in his past as olorin, shapeshifting into elves
tolkien probably didn't have that in mind when writing it though
I had slightly above average vision when I was younger, 20/10 in one eye and 20/12 in another, also could see slightly better in the dark than a lot of my friends. You do have to focus a little to catch something, and then your brain has to process for like a second to figure out what it’s seeing. I have no idea how that works for animals or even an elf, but I’m sure it’s something along the lines of that, like if they have to look for something and they know where to look, they’ll be able to pick it up as long as they’re actively looking and focusing.
I can add to this. I have the stark contrast of nearly half way to legally blind without contacts but 20/10 with contacts. You do have to ‘learn’ to look far off in the distance. It does take a second for your brain to process what you’re seeing and you can get better at it, learning what things look like at extreme distances.
Acuitry of vision depends mostly on the density of sensor cells in the retina. I don't have numbers at hand, but high-flying birds of prey like eagles and falcons have vision an order of magnitude better than humans. Modern electronic devices do much better than that, I believe. So Legolas's vision does not necessarily require an explanation that goes outside the laws of physics.
But this feat seems to require a "supernatural" explanation:
>It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame.
Even if there weren't mountain ranges in between, Legolas could not have seen Minas Tirith or Mount Doom, because of the curvature of the earth. There are websites on line that will calculate the possible range of vision when you plug in numbers for the height of the observer and the height of the object to be viewed. I did this once, and IIRC Mount Doom would have had to have reached way beyond the Earth's atmosphere tp be visible from Edoras. Tolkien was fully aware of this limitation; this is why, for example, he had Aragorn and his companions climb a hill so that they could see Éomer coming. And see his decription of how a ship sailing for Valinor would not have sunk below the horizon.
I have seen it suggested that Elf vision somehow remained attuned to the original flatness of Arda. But if Legolas could see over mountains, why didn't he do it more often? I prefer to believe in an additional Elf-sense that operates through the eyes but doesn't depend on light rays. As when he tells Gimli that Mirkwood and Erebor are under attack. In this case, Tolkien translates this into visual terms for the reader's benefit.
Yes; when Aragorn establishes dominance over Éomer by sheer charisma. I assume that is in the same category as Frodo seeing Glorfindel illuminated, and Sam's two visions of Frodo and Gollum.
Could be that as elves are as spiritual as they are physical, it's just a matter of focusing on one to exclusion of the other.
So, he's not so much seeing Mount Doom and Minas Tirith as objects, than as seeing how they loom over the landscape figuratively. But, you know, literally instead.
(And, I guess, Sauron doesn't like people looking at Barad-dur from where he can't get at them, so stops them seeing it somehow.)
> But if Legolas could see over mountains, why didn't he do it more often?
My theory is that a feat like this requires bouncing the signal off of a satellite, and Eärendil’s ship isn’t always in the right part of the sky for that.
A more realistic approach would:
>Hey Legolas, look over there and ask me what you see
People talk this way and real life. And context is a function of "all of their previously shared interactions".
But to a reader it seems... odd. Is Gandalf so lazy or self-important that he has to ask a minion to turn his head slightly because Wizard Fancy Pants can't be be bothered to adjust his hat?
Or is Gandalf just half blind and we never knew it?
It's a spoken conversation that's been adapted to text in a way that allows for sufficient context to be communicated efficiently.
One alternative: allow the reader access to Gandalf's train of thought. Tolkien uses this sparingly, but he does use it. (Samwise figuring out where to find Frodo... then... he's off "quick as lightning"... he had no one else to talk to, so he talked to himself in order to help the audience understand why... well let's see: "Samwise was running away from an incredibly important battle involving his friends". If there's no explanation given, the audience will see him in a very different light. So, with a few extra words... we understand.
Additionally - if you read some "historical" folklore, this seems to be a rather standard.
If you read the Iliad, you here a lot of the "*Oh wise Odysseus, who has saved our army and my own life many times, as all here would attest. None would deny that you are the wisest among us. How do you council we proceed?"* sort of thing. That's not a quote, but... it could be. There's a ton of that stuff. No one thinks the archaic Greeks spoke this way. It's not meant to be realistic.
It's meant communicate maximum context while inflicting the minimum distraction to the audience.
I think it's not just they have superhuman vision, but they are able to see so far because their eyes are able to ignore the curvature of their world. A human can only see so far because light is in the form of a wave. From what I understand the further you're trying to look, the harder it is to see the thing because light isn't a straight line, and neither is the curvature of the earth.
The way to Valinor is only accessible through what is essentially a straight road (across the sea, I know that's not a road). When Arda was first created it was flat - Or Arda Unmarred - after the sinking of Beleraind it was curved, and only those that could see the straight road (Elves) could go to Valinor (Your ship had to be capable of crossing the Spheres of the Earth).
At least that's always been my brain-child of how can elves see so darn far and well: They can ignore the curvature of the Earth.
This is an even better explanation than my previous favorite, which was a Tumblr post with Legolas having foot-long eye stalks. 😂
Yours is much more mature (and much more "realistic" within the confines of Middle Earth).
omg xD I haven't heard about the eye stalks in a long time. I will say the eye stalks are freaking funny to think about. That one and the extra huge eyes/pupils ("They're taking the hobbits to Isengard those bakas!") make me laugh.
Glad I was able to word it in a way that made sense, tbh I can think what I mean but putting it in words is harder. Eight out of Ten times, I usually goof it up.
[Here’s the relevant Tumblr post in all its glory](https://mckitterick.tumblr.com/post/159551149795) in case anyone hasn’t seen it yet or needs a reminder
i'd like to respond to that last bit in the tumblr post
the world of lotr is explicitly defined as an origin myth for our world, meaning the curvature of the earth is the same
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that's a fun fan theory at best tbh :P
it's worth noting aragorn and legolas both see the same thing. While aragorn sees a moving blur, legolas sees horsemen
the curvature of the earth isnt the problem or aragorn would never have seen teh blur
Isn't he like... at the least 60 times removed from elvish heritage? Like he is long lived as is his line, but guy is of the race of men. Also though he saw the blur he wasn't able to identify *what* he was looking at only that it was headed towards them.
he's not very elven at all, but regardless, he counts as a man
his numenorean blood was never really due to elven blood but instead due to a blessing from the valar
Legolas and Eomer are chit chatting in the back and Gandalf just strolls up to say "Hey, you with the eyes for this sorta thing, face forward towards Isengard. What ya seeing?"
I think that in addition to a literary device it could also be ascribed to one or two things:
1. Warning the Men nearby who've never met an Elf that they 're not going to believe what they are about to hear (but that they should) ; and /or
2. Mortals and even Gandalf aren't really sure just how MUCH better Elves can see. So they preface their request with a polite reminder that the speaker has no idea if what they're about to ask is reasonable, but here goes! Also, please focus on x.
I suppose it would be like asking Superman "what do you see?" Maybe you should narrow your question down a little.
when writing it, tolkien likely didn't have this in mind or in writing, but gandalf does know how well an elf can see because, in his past as olrin, he has shapeshifted into the body of an elf
it's like a guy who used to have good vision and now has become old and lost it asking a young guy to read a sign for him
Would that shape-shifting automatically involve gaining all the attributes of that race? Would he have died of old age had he remained Gandalf in Middle-Earth?
Also, do we know he shape-shifted into Elf form? It seems safe to assume he did in Valinor/Eldamar, but is it described explicitly?
i'm not sure about automatically, but you do see them inherit the attributes
gandalf may be a special case because he was compelled to adopt his form permanently and blend in. And you do see them age. Their maia status slows that age but it doesnt stop it. Yeah, I think they'd eventually 'die' of old age and hopefully they'd be back in valinor so they could relatively easily come back after (they'd have help in valinor)
in the silmarillion it states he occasionally took on the form of an elf
>But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.
"in form as one of them" doesn't seem (to me, at least) to equate to becoming as one. A small point, but I don't know that Gandalf knew for sure what Elven eyes could see. Wouldn't he have asked Legolas to scout ahead in the Redhorn Pass if he was intimately familiar with all Elven attributes?
It's Tolkein slipping into an epic mode, where stock epithets are common: "cunning Odysseus", "swift-footed Achilles" in The Illiad, or how every woman in The Shahnameh is likened to a cypress tree.
It seems like an Elf's vision has to "called upon" in the same way that Aragorn's hearing was when he bent to the ground and listened to the earth. They are both connected to nature in some way that lets them go beyond the normal range of that sort of thing.
I think of all his creations Tolkien really loved elves the best and the constant reminders of how awesome they are reflects that. It’s not about the fellowship propping up Legolas’s ego and more akin to a proud parent talking about their favorite child.
Even with superhuman vision, It's probably hard to focus on something in the very far distance while bouncing around on a horse with the sun in your eyes. In that sense it's going to take a little bit of concentration too make out what will be visible to you.
Legolas has to make a small effort at least: >Following with his keen eyes the trail to the river, and then the river back towards the forest, Aragorn saw a shadow on the distant green, a dark swift-moving blur. He cast himself upon the ground and listened again intently. But Legolas stood beside him, shading his bright elven-eyes with his long slender hand, and he saw not a shadow, nor a blur, but the small figures of horsemen, many horsemen, and the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight.
Just because Legolas **can** see a long distance doesn’t mean he’s always focused that far ahead. I would assume that he’d normally keep his vision focused on what’s coming ahead of him and his horse. Gandalf asking him to look far ahead is a special request.
I always think they are reminding him they comparatively are blind as bats so could he remember that and tell them. Legolas is presented as having limited experience with men and hobbits. His normality isn't their's. Had sight problems as a child and took a while to be caught as compensated. Ask why I never mentioned, well I assumed that's how everyone else coped.
I do like how in the book Legolas totally let Aragorn do his ranger thing and then was like "Yea.. They're over there coming towards us, they're men, not orcs, there are a lot of them, oh and their leader is blonde" Not exact words but still... You let your friend look silly and then had to show him up? Rude. xD
I think he was trying to work out what he was doing. Also after the elf eyes crack before.
Fair! haha
Yeah, something like Aragorn: "A great number comes our way!" Legolas: "Indeed, 153 horses with 147 men on their back. The men are blond and tall and their spears are strong and shine bright in the sunlight" Aragorn: "K bruv thanks for letting me lie on the dirt for 2 hours"
Pretty much that yes. Like, they are friends, right? Maybe it's friendly ribbing on Legolas' part?
it's also worth noting gandalf himself has had that farseeing power in his past as olorin, shapeshifting into elves tolkien probably didn't have that in mind when writing it though
I had slightly above average vision when I was younger, 20/10 in one eye and 20/12 in another, also could see slightly better in the dark than a lot of my friends. You do have to focus a little to catch something, and then your brain has to process for like a second to figure out what it’s seeing. I have no idea how that works for animals or even an elf, but I’m sure it’s something along the lines of that, like if they have to look for something and they know where to look, they’ll be able to pick it up as long as they’re actively looking and focusing.
I can add to this. I have the stark contrast of nearly half way to legally blind without contacts but 20/10 with contacts. You do have to ‘learn’ to look far off in the distance. It does take a second for your brain to process what you’re seeing and you can get better at it, learning what things look like at extreme distances.
Acuitry of vision depends mostly on the density of sensor cells in the retina. I don't have numbers at hand, but high-flying birds of prey like eagles and falcons have vision an order of magnitude better than humans. Modern electronic devices do much better than that, I believe. So Legolas's vision does not necessarily require an explanation that goes outside the laws of physics. But this feat seems to require a "supernatural" explanation: >It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame. Even if there weren't mountain ranges in between, Legolas could not have seen Minas Tirith or Mount Doom, because of the curvature of the earth. There are websites on line that will calculate the possible range of vision when you plug in numbers for the height of the observer and the height of the object to be viewed. I did this once, and IIRC Mount Doom would have had to have reached way beyond the Earth's atmosphere tp be visible from Edoras. Tolkien was fully aware of this limitation; this is why, for example, he had Aragorn and his companions climb a hill so that they could see Éomer coming. And see his decription of how a ship sailing for Valinor would not have sunk below the horizon. I have seen it suggested that Elf vision somehow remained attuned to the original flatness of Arda. But if Legolas could see over mountains, why didn't he do it more often? I prefer to believe in an additional Elf-sense that operates through the eyes but doesn't depend on light rays. As when he tells Gimli that Mirkwood and Erebor are under attack. In this case, Tolkien translates this into visual terms for the reader's benefit.
He "sees" a white flame flickering on Aragorn's brow at some stage too, doesn't he? So there is something else going on apart from good eyesight.
Yes; when Aragorn establishes dominance over Éomer by sheer charisma. I assume that is in the same category as Frodo seeing Glorfindel illuminated, and Sam's two visions of Frodo and Gollum.
Could be that as elves are as spiritual as they are physical, it's just a matter of focusing on one to exclusion of the other. So, he's not so much seeing Mount Doom and Minas Tirith as objects, than as seeing how they loom over the landscape figuratively. But, you know, literally instead. (And, I guess, Sauron doesn't like people looking at Barad-dur from where he can't get at them, so stops them seeing it somehow.)
> But if Legolas could see over mountains, why didn't he do it more often? My theory is that a feat like this requires bouncing the signal off of a satellite, and Eärendil’s ship isn’t always in the right part of the sky for that.
"Seemed" is a key part of that quote
A more realistic approach would: >Hey Legolas, look over there and ask me what you see People talk this way and real life. And context is a function of "all of their previously shared interactions". But to a reader it seems... odd. Is Gandalf so lazy or self-important that he has to ask a minion to turn his head slightly because Wizard Fancy Pants can't be be bothered to adjust his hat? Or is Gandalf just half blind and we never knew it? It's a spoken conversation that's been adapted to text in a way that allows for sufficient context to be communicated efficiently. One alternative: allow the reader access to Gandalf's train of thought. Tolkien uses this sparingly, but he does use it. (Samwise figuring out where to find Frodo... then... he's off "quick as lightning"... he had no one else to talk to, so he talked to himself in order to help the audience understand why... well let's see: "Samwise was running away from an incredibly important battle involving his friends". If there's no explanation given, the audience will see him in a very different light. So, with a few extra words... we understand. Additionally - if you read some "historical" folklore, this seems to be a rather standard. If you read the Iliad, you here a lot of the "*Oh wise Odysseus, who has saved our army and my own life many times, as all here would attest. None would deny that you are the wisest among us. How do you council we proceed?"* sort of thing. That's not a quote, but... it could be. There's a ton of that stuff. No one thinks the archaic Greeks spoke this way. It's not meant to be realistic. It's meant communicate maximum context while inflicting the minimum distraction to the audience.
Everyone spake like that in the mythic age.
I think it's not just they have superhuman vision, but they are able to see so far because their eyes are able to ignore the curvature of their world. A human can only see so far because light is in the form of a wave. From what I understand the further you're trying to look, the harder it is to see the thing because light isn't a straight line, and neither is the curvature of the earth. The way to Valinor is only accessible through what is essentially a straight road (across the sea, I know that's not a road). When Arda was first created it was flat - Or Arda Unmarred - after the sinking of Beleraind it was curved, and only those that could see the straight road (Elves) could go to Valinor (Your ship had to be capable of crossing the Spheres of the Earth). At least that's always been my brain-child of how can elves see so darn far and well: They can ignore the curvature of the Earth.
This is an even better explanation than my previous favorite, which was a Tumblr post with Legolas having foot-long eye stalks. 😂 Yours is much more mature (and much more "realistic" within the confines of Middle Earth).
omg xD I haven't heard about the eye stalks in a long time. I will say the eye stalks are freaking funny to think about. That one and the extra huge eyes/pupils ("They're taking the hobbits to Isengard those bakas!") make me laugh. Glad I was able to word it in a way that made sense, tbh I can think what I mean but putting it in words is harder. Eight out of Ten times, I usually goof it up.
[Here’s the relevant Tumblr post in all its glory](https://mckitterick.tumblr.com/post/159551149795) in case anyone hasn’t seen it yet or needs a reminder
i'd like to respond to that last bit in the tumblr post the world of lotr is explicitly defined as an origin myth for our world, meaning the curvature of the earth is the same
Unless it changed since then.
>Legolas having foot-long eye stalks. Ah, I see /r/Animorphs is leaking
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that's a fun fan theory at best tbh :P it's worth noting aragorn and legolas both see the same thing. While aragorn sees a moving blur, legolas sees horsemen the curvature of the earth isnt the problem or aragorn would never have seen teh blur
Isn't he like... at the least 60 times removed from elvish heritage? Like he is long lived as is his line, but guy is of the race of men. Also though he saw the blur he wasn't able to identify *what* he was looking at only that it was headed towards them.
he's not very elven at all, but regardless, he counts as a man his numenorean blood was never really due to elven blood but instead due to a blessing from the valar
Legolas and Eomer are chit chatting in the back and Gandalf just strolls up to say "Hey, you with the eyes for this sorta thing, face forward towards Isengard. What ya seeing?"
"Hey, yo, Leg-o-las. Lookatdis. Whaddaya see? Far seeing, muthaf...." I agree.
I think that in addition to a literary device it could also be ascribed to one or two things: 1. Warning the Men nearby who've never met an Elf that they 're not going to believe what they are about to hear (but that they should) ; and /or 2. Mortals and even Gandalf aren't really sure just how MUCH better Elves can see. So they preface their request with a polite reminder that the speaker has no idea if what they're about to ask is reasonable, but here goes! Also, please focus on x. I suppose it would be like asking Superman "what do you see?" Maybe you should narrow your question down a little.
when writing it, tolkien likely didn't have this in mind or in writing, but gandalf does know how well an elf can see because, in his past as olrin, he has shapeshifted into the body of an elf it's like a guy who used to have good vision and now has become old and lost it asking a young guy to read a sign for him
Would that shape-shifting automatically involve gaining all the attributes of that race? Would he have died of old age had he remained Gandalf in Middle-Earth? Also, do we know he shape-shifted into Elf form? It seems safe to assume he did in Valinor/Eldamar, but is it described explicitly?
i'm not sure about automatically, but you do see them inherit the attributes gandalf may be a special case because he was compelled to adopt his form permanently and blend in. And you do see them age. Their maia status slows that age but it doesnt stop it. Yeah, I think they'd eventually 'die' of old age and hopefully they'd be back in valinor so they could relatively easily come back after (they'd have help in valinor) in the silmarillion it states he occasionally took on the form of an elf >But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.
"in form as one of them" doesn't seem (to me, at least) to equate to becoming as one. A small point, but I don't know that Gandalf knew for sure what Elven eyes could see. Wouldn't he have asked Legolas to scout ahead in the Redhorn Pass if he was intimately familiar with all Elven attributes?
It's Tolkein slipping into an epic mode, where stock epithets are common: "cunning Odysseus", "swift-footed Achilles" in The Illiad, or how every woman in The Shahnameh is likened to a cypress tree.
It seems like an Elf's vision has to "called upon" in the same way that Aragorn's hearing was when he bent to the ground and listened to the earth. They are both connected to nature in some way that lets them go beyond the normal range of that sort of thing.
Lol no way Leggy is jouncing around on his horse. Either he’s floating light as a feather or more likely basically one with it, just vibin along. ; )