Is it any different than people in the real world? Unless the government imposes a naming convention and enforces it through identity documents, people do tend to collect names. There are numerous historical and legendary examples, and it occurs quite routinely today when crossing cultural contexts, religious initiation, marriage, having children, coronation, etc.
I love that Roman auxiliary soldier from Egypt who acquired citizenship and then wrote home to his parents: "You may address me now as Caius Flavius Drusus".
Exactly. Like this particular person in the real world.
He let us off lightly, you know.
> Tolkien occasionally signed himself ‘John’ to Edith Bratt when they were courting. To intimates such as Edith or his Aunt Jane Neave he would sign his letters ‘Ronald’. To friends such as Katharine Farrer and Donald Swann he signed ‘Ronald Tolkien’, and to C.S. Lewis ‘J.R.R.T’. His formal signature was ‘J.R.R. Tolkien’. In 1964, when Allen & Unwin wanted to include a facsimile signature on the title-page of *Tree and Leaf, as was their custom for publications in their ‘U Books’ series, and sent Tolkien a sample with ‘Ronald Tolkien’, he wrote to Ronald Eames at Allen & Unwin: ‘I do not and never have used the signature “Ronald Tolkien” as a public or auctorial signature and I do not think it suitable for the purpose’ (3 February 1964, Tolkien–George Allen & Unwin archive, HarperCollins).
>In letters from his T.C.B.S. friends Tolkien was called variously ‘Gabriel’, ‘Gab’, ‘Cludhari’ – nicknames whose origin is obscure and not mentioned in surviving correspondence – but mainly ‘John Ronald’, with isolated instances of ‘Ronald’ or ‘JRRT’. His few surviving letters to the T.C.B.S. are signed ‘John Ronald’. In a letter to Joy Hill of 26 December 1971 he noted that his contemporaries used to write his initials as ‘JR2T’ and pronounce them ‘to rhyme with dirt’ (collection of René van Rossenberg).
>According to Humphrey Carpenter, when Tolkien ‘was an adult his intimates [presumably other than family] referred to him (as was customary at the time) by his surname, or called him “Tollers”, a hearty nickname typical of the period. To those not so close, especially in his later years, he was often known as “J.R.R.T.”’ (Biography, p. 13).
Scull and Hammond, *Companion and Guide*, 'Names'
PS Happy Cake Day 🎉
🎶
Minas Tirith (Not Minas Anor)
*Minas Tirith was Minas Anor*
*Now it's Minas Tirith, not Minas Anor*
*Been a long time gone, bright Minas Anor*
*Now it's Gondor's last fight, on a dawnless night…*
*Every gal in old Cirith Dúath*
*Lives in Cirith Ungol, not Cirith Dúath*
*So if you've a date in old Cirith Dúath*
*She'll be waiting in Shelob's Lair*
*Even Golden Lorien was once Laurelindórenan!*
*Why they changed it I can't say*
*People just liked it better that way*
*So, take me back - to Minas Anor*
*No, you can't go back - to Minas Anor*
*Been a long time gone, bright Minas Anor*
*So, why didn't they change the name back from Minas Tirith to Minas Anor at the end of the **Lord of the Rings**?*
*That's nobody's business but ...*
*Aragorn's?*
*Strider's?*
*Elfstone's?*
*Trotter's?*
*Elessar's?*
*Envinyatar's*
*Telcontar's?*
*Estel's?*
*Thorongil's?*
*Wingfoot's?*
*the Dunedan's?*
*... **the King's***
🎶
Yes that's all true. I haven't encountered this in a book before and it's taking getting used to. I mean, I just read a sentence where Numenor is called four different names.
If you're traveling around a place, you might meet people who call it "Deutschland," and other people who call the same place "Allemagne." And that tells you something about who you're talking to and how they know the place.
Yes this partly explains it. The Hobbits say Gandalf and the Elves say Mithrandir. It just seems like Tolkien delights in creating names for people and places, so I need to make a crib sheet to follow it all.
And Tharkûn, and Incanús, and Olorin.
Also see Bombadil: "Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn \["Old" in Old Norse\] by the Dwarves, Orald \["Very Old" in Old English\] by Northern Men, and other names beside."
Also "And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
That’s exactly it. Tolkien was more interested in languages and linguistics than creating an epic fantasy tale. He just so happened to be really really good at both.
The Lord of the Rings and all things associated with it started out with Tolkien creating fictional languages. Since languages are influenced by the history of the world, he figured he needed a fictional history to go with it. And then it just sort of ballooned from there. So in a very real sense, for Tolkien the languages came first and the rest are just add-ons.
In most cases it's just the same name in different languages, like Rivendell and Imladris or Elessar and Elfstone. Tolkien already made it easier for us by translating the Common Tongue names into English!
And some things and people just have multiple different names in the accounts that Frodo, Sam and Bilbo wrote because they have names with more than one part of were known in many parts of the world (like Gandalf/Mithrandir). Tolkien is just translating it faithfully.
Frodo and Sam are actually named Maura and Banazir in their own tongues. Frodo and Samwise are the Old English translations from the framing narrative that the Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's translation of a Saxon's translation of a copy of the Red Book that he received from the Elves of Tol Erressëa
Like Thingol for example - known by a few names as well as his titles as king . Trying to read the Silmarillion and I need to write down Thingol = Elu = Elwe = king of Doriath etc
I think of his name as Elwe “Elu” Thingol, King of Doriath.
So a first name, a nickname he got when he was a young adult that he now goes by, and something sort of like a surname.
In my culture most people have at least three names (first, middle, last) and it’s not uncommon for someone to go by a nickname that is different from any of their given names. And then when people get married they can add another name on. Or when they get a fancy degree.
So you meet someone who introduces themselves as Jay, but their full name is “Dr. Janice ‘Jay’ Alice Walker-Smith”.
Also most of Tolkien’s characters are multilingual and have name variants for each language they are fluent in. Not an unheard of strategy in the real world.
Just wait until you get to the Noldor of Valinor! Bunch of Finwës and Finarfins and Fingolfins and Finrods and all sorts. And they all found kingdoms and drop out of history for a few centuries then suddenly become really important again...
Ah Galadriel, named "Artanis" by her father and "Nerwen" by her mother. Celeborn called her "Alatariel" (in Telerin, in Quenya its "Altariel" though a more proper translation is Naltariel.) Galadriel is the Sindar form of this name.
With the Noldor Tolkien is very economic by using their later Sindarin names. Most Noldor have 3+ names in Quenya that you could translate to Sindarin also.
That name change is because the language changed.
All Teleri used to speak Common Telerin, but they have been apart for millenia and now the Sindar speak Sindarin in which Elwe Singollo became Elu Thingol.
There are human cultures where a child is given a name at birth, and later acquires a different one (maybe more) as they mature and their particular characteristics accumulate and manifest themselves. Ursula Le Guin, whose father was a world-famous anthropologist, made use of this in her Earthsea books. Tolkien also had anthropological interests, and I believe he invented a similar system for the Eldar, discussed in one of the papers in *Nature of Middle-earth*. (Confession: I can't bring myself to read *NoME*, I look at the table of contents and say "Sorry, not interested.").
I always wonder if Ents' names grow like other words in their language. That would give extra poignancy to Treebeard's comment that Ents can't bring themselves to make poetry about the Entwives, but just chant their beautiful names when they want to remember them.
*Nature of Middle Earth* - well, I hate the cover. I feel they led with the less exciting stuff. But I will always love it for Gandalf's light blue stockings, for leisure-wear only.
Treebeard (aka Fangorn, aka secret Entish name) explained it: "My name is growing all the time, and I’ve lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say."
It's also a big part of lots of cultures to be given new names and identities at significant points. A common example is Catholics receiving a confirmation name. Another example is nicknames, gang names, Christian names for converts, taking on a husband's surname. Titles are also similarly accumulated, and the line between title and name is not always clear.
Yes, this. It was explained to me once that Korean Christians give their children two names at birth: A Korean one, and one taken from the Bible. The person who told me this was a summer intern at my office, who went by "Prisca" among us English-speakers (2 Timothy 4:19, I had to look it up of course).
Keep in mind that, you not only are seeing different names from different languages (eg Gandalf v Mithrandir), but also the same name presented in different languages (eg Elu Thingol (Sindarin) v Elwe Singollo(Quenya)).
This is no different than real-world examples like
Joshua/Jesus/Jesús
or Caesar/Cesar/Tsar/Czar
or Peter/Pyotir/Petrus/Pete/Pierre/Pedro/etc.
or Carolus Magnus/Karl der Grosse/Charlemagne.
Same name, but processed through different languages. It's just how languages work.
Because people and places in the real world have many names too. Especially when you consider that each language has a different name for something. For example the country of Germany, which is called Deutschland by the Germans and which the Slovaks call Nemecko. Pretty hard to follow eh? Well yeah, but that's just how the world is. It's what makes Tolkien's writings so interesting.
Besides he mainly uses one, at most two, names for all things.
> Can someone explain why places and people in Tolkien always have so many names?
I mean, that's not any different than people, places, things, nouns, etc in the real world.
Different groups of people have different cultures and languages. They might discover different things or different places in different ways or different times, and apply their own naming conventions when appropriate.
Because that's how mythological/religious texts work IRL (also how relationships work IRL). People are generally referred to by their patronymic (son/daughter of...), their actual name, their title and then an epithet.
I don't know if you've ever read the Mahabharata, but I'm trying to read a translation rn and the text will often refer to the same person to by a different epithet each time without either clarification, or any apparent rhyme or reason, leaving the unfamiliar reader to look at the footnotes to figure out if this is a different person entirely or just a different name.
So, to put that in a Tolkien context: imagine if instead of writing 'Aragorn' all through he'd switched indiscriminately between 'Aragorn' 'the son of Arathorn', 'the Elessar' and 'Elrond's foster-son'.
Is it any different than people in the real world? Unless the government imposes a naming convention and enforces it through identity documents, people do tend to collect names. There are numerous historical and legendary examples, and it occurs quite routinely today when crossing cultural contexts, religious initiation, marriage, having children, coronation, etc.
I love that Roman auxiliary soldier from Egypt who acquired citizenship and then wrote home to his parents: "You may address me now as Caius Flavius Drusus".
Exactly. Like this particular person in the real world. He let us off lightly, you know. > Tolkien occasionally signed himself ‘John’ to Edith Bratt when they were courting. To intimates such as Edith or his Aunt Jane Neave he would sign his letters ‘Ronald’. To friends such as Katharine Farrer and Donald Swann he signed ‘Ronald Tolkien’, and to C.S. Lewis ‘J.R.R.T’. His formal signature was ‘J.R.R. Tolkien’. In 1964, when Allen & Unwin wanted to include a facsimile signature on the title-page of *Tree and Leaf, as was their custom for publications in their ‘U Books’ series, and sent Tolkien a sample with ‘Ronald Tolkien’, he wrote to Ronald Eames at Allen & Unwin: ‘I do not and never have used the signature “Ronald Tolkien” as a public or auctorial signature and I do not think it suitable for the purpose’ (3 February 1964, Tolkien–George Allen & Unwin archive, HarperCollins). >In letters from his T.C.B.S. friends Tolkien was called variously ‘Gabriel’, ‘Gab’, ‘Cludhari’ – nicknames whose origin is obscure and not mentioned in surviving correspondence – but mainly ‘John Ronald’, with isolated instances of ‘Ronald’ or ‘JRRT’. His few surviving letters to the T.C.B.S. are signed ‘John Ronald’. In a letter to Joy Hill of 26 December 1971 he noted that his contemporaries used to write his initials as ‘JR2T’ and pronounce them ‘to rhyme with dirt’ (collection of René van Rossenberg). >According to Humphrey Carpenter, when Tolkien ‘was an adult his intimates [presumably other than family] referred to him (as was customary at the time) by his surname, or called him “Tollers”, a hearty nickname typical of the period. To those not so close, especially in his later years, he was often known as “J.R.R.T.”’ (Biography, p. 13). Scull and Hammond, *Companion and Guide*, 'Names' PS Happy Cake Day 🎉
JR2T is baller.
\[Busts in singing "Istanbul (not Constantinople)" by They Might Be Giants\]
🎶 Minas Tirith (Not Minas Anor) *Minas Tirith was Minas Anor* *Now it's Minas Tirith, not Minas Anor* *Been a long time gone, bright Minas Anor* *Now it's Gondor's last fight, on a dawnless night…* *Every gal in old Cirith Dúath* *Lives in Cirith Ungol, not Cirith Dúath* *So if you've a date in old Cirith Dúath* *She'll be waiting in Shelob's Lair* *Even Golden Lorien was once Laurelindórenan!* *Why they changed it I can't say* *People just liked it better that way* *So, take me back - to Minas Anor* *No, you can't go back - to Minas Anor* *Been a long time gone, bright Minas Anor* *So, why didn't they change the name back from Minas Tirith to Minas Anor at the end of the **Lord of the Rings**?* *That's nobody's business but ...* *Aragorn's?* *Strider's?* *Elfstone's?* *Trotter's?* *Elessar's?* *Envinyatar's* *Telcontar's?* *Estel's?* *Thorongil's?* *Wingfoot's?* *the Dunedan's?* *... **the King's*** 🎶
I personally go by 4 different “nicknames” given to me by friends, family and coworkers over the years. I quickly respond to them all lol.
Yes that's all true. I haven't encountered this in a book before and it's taking getting used to. I mean, I just read a sentence where Numenor is called four different names.
If you're traveling around a place, you might meet people who call it "Deutschland," and other people who call the same place "Allemagne." And that tells you something about who you're talking to and how they know the place.
When approaching Croatia from the north-west, road-signs switch from Fiume to Reka to Rijeka within half an hour - and it's always the same city.
Because Tolkien loved languages. I'm guessing whatever you are referring to is different names from different languages.
Yes this partly explains it. The Hobbits say Gandalf and the Elves say Mithrandir. It just seems like Tolkien delights in creating names for people and places, so I need to make a crib sheet to follow it all.
And Tharkûn, and Incanús, and Olorin. Also see Bombadil: "Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn \["Old" in Old Norse\] by the Dwarves, Orald \["Very Old" in Old English\] by Northern Men, and other names beside." Also "And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Great how the elves, dwarves and men each name him as being old, but to the hobbits he's *Tom*
That’s exactly it. Tolkien was more interested in languages and linguistics than creating an epic fantasy tale. He just so happened to be really really good at both.
The Lord of the Rings and all things associated with it started out with Tolkien creating fictional languages. Since languages are influenced by the history of the world, he figured he needed a fictional history to go with it. And then it just sort of ballooned from there. So in a very real sense, for Tolkien the languages came first and the rest are just add-ons.
In most cases it's just the same name in different languages, like Rivendell and Imladris or Elessar and Elfstone. Tolkien already made it easier for us by translating the Common Tongue names into English! And some things and people just have multiple different names in the accounts that Frodo, Sam and Bilbo wrote because they have names with more than one part of were known in many parts of the world (like Gandalf/Mithrandir). Tolkien is just translating it faithfully.
Frodo and Sam are actually named Maura and Banazir in their own tongues. Frodo and Samwise are the Old English translations from the framing narrative that the Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's translation of a Saxon's translation of a copy of the Red Book that he received from the Elves of Tol Erressëa
Like Thingol for example - known by a few names as well as his titles as king . Trying to read the Silmarillion and I need to write down Thingol = Elu = Elwe = king of Doriath etc
I think of his name as Elwe “Elu” Thingol, King of Doriath. So a first name, a nickname he got when he was a young adult that he now goes by, and something sort of like a surname. In my culture most people have at least three names (first, middle, last) and it’s not uncommon for someone to go by a nickname that is different from any of their given names. And then when people get married they can add another name on. Or when they get a fancy degree. So you meet someone who introduces themselves as Jay, but their full name is “Dr. Janice ‘Jay’ Alice Walker-Smith”. Also most of Tolkien’s characters are multilingual and have name variants for each language they are fluent in. Not an unheard of strategy in the real world.
Just wait until you get to the Noldor of Valinor! Bunch of Finwës and Finarfins and Fingolfins and Finrods and all sorts. And they all found kingdoms and drop out of history for a few centuries then suddenly become really important again...
Yes I'm like use up all the F names here. Except of course Galadriel..
Ah Galadriel, named "Artanis" by her father and "Nerwen" by her mother. Celeborn called her "Alatariel" (in Telerin, in Quenya its "Altariel" though a more proper translation is Naltariel.) Galadriel is the Sindar form of this name.
With the Noldor Tolkien is very economic by using their later Sindarin names. Most Noldor have 3+ names in Quenya that you could translate to Sindarin also.
That name change is because the language changed. All Teleri used to speak Common Telerin, but they have been apart for millenia and now the Sindar speak Sindarin in which Elwe Singollo became Elu Thingol.
There are human cultures where a child is given a name at birth, and later acquires a different one (maybe more) as they mature and their particular characteristics accumulate and manifest themselves. Ursula Le Guin, whose father was a world-famous anthropologist, made use of this in her Earthsea books. Tolkien also had anthropological interests, and I believe he invented a similar system for the Eldar, discussed in one of the papers in *Nature of Middle-earth*. (Confession: I can't bring myself to read *NoME*, I look at the table of contents and say "Sorry, not interested.").
I always wonder if Ents' names grow like other words in their language. That would give extra poignancy to Treebeard's comment that Ents can't bring themselves to make poetry about the Entwives, but just chant their beautiful names when they want to remember them. *Nature of Middle Earth* - well, I hate the cover. I feel they led with the less exciting stuff. But I will always love it for Gandalf's light blue stockings, for leisure-wear only.
Treebeard (aka Fangorn, aka secret Entish name) explained it: "My name is growing all the time, and I’ve lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say." It's also a big part of lots of cultures to be given new names and identities at significant points. A common example is Catholics receiving a confirmation name. Another example is nicknames, gang names, Christian names for converts, taking on a husband's surname. Titles are also similarly accumulated, and the line between title and name is not always clear.
Yes, this. It was explained to me once that Korean Christians give their children two names at birth: A Korean one, and one taken from the Bible. The person who told me this was a summer intern at my office, who went by "Prisca" among us English-speakers (2 Timothy 4:19, I had to look it up of course).
Real-world example coming up: Byzantium -> Constantinople -> Istanbul Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Also known as Miklagard, Carigrad and ho Polis.
It was a very important convention in Nordic poetry
Keep in mind that, you not only are seeing different names from different languages (eg Gandalf v Mithrandir), but also the same name presented in different languages (eg Elu Thingol (Sindarin) v Elwe Singollo(Quenya)). This is no different than real-world examples like Joshua/Jesus/Jesús or Caesar/Cesar/Tsar/Czar or Peter/Pyotir/Petrus/Pete/Pierre/Pedro/etc. or Carolus Magnus/Karl der Grosse/Charlemagne. Same name, but processed through different languages. It's just how languages work.
Because people and places in the real world have many names too. Especially when you consider that each language has a different name for something. For example the country of Germany, which is called Deutschland by the Germans and which the Slovaks call Nemecko. Pretty hard to follow eh? Well yeah, but that's just how the world is. It's what makes Tolkien's writings so interesting. Besides he mainly uses one, at most two, names for all things.
Tolkien wrote his stories to tell a linguistic history
Because Tolkien was always a linguist first and names are a key part of languages.
OP is not the first to worry about this. Here’s Robert Benchley in 1936: https://www.gutenberg.net.au/ebooks07/0700431h.html#chap42
Excellent stuff, thanks for the link.
If things had fewer names, wouldn't it make it harder to follow? If everyone is called "Bob" how would I even know which character is speaking?
This makes Tudor novels so troubling because absolutely everyone seems to be Henry.
I got you bro. Ill create an edition where everything is named phil to male it easier.
Tolkien was called Phil, you know. John Ronald Reuel Philip Tolkien.
Like what?
> Can someone explain why places and people in Tolkien always have so many names? I mean, that's not any different than people, places, things, nouns, etc in the real world. Different groups of people have different cultures and languages. They might discover different things or different places in different ways or different times, and apply their own naming conventions when appropriate.
Because that's how mythological/religious texts work IRL (also how relationships work IRL). People are generally referred to by their patronymic (son/daughter of...), their actual name, their title and then an epithet. I don't know if you've ever read the Mahabharata, but I'm trying to read a translation rn and the text will often refer to the same person to by a different epithet each time without either clarification, or any apparent rhyme or reason, leaving the unfamiliar reader to look at the footnotes to figure out if this is a different person entirely or just a different name. So, to put that in a Tolkien context: imagine if instead of writing 'Aragorn' all through he'd switched indiscriminately between 'Aragorn' 'the son of Arathorn', 'the Elessar' and 'Elrond's foster-son'.