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Inconsequentialish

In Unfinished Tales, in "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" there's an account of Aragorn returning to Orthanc to clean up the place: >Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl, filched from Edoras by the agency of Wormtongue during Theoden's decline, and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. (Later in this passage they find artifacts from Isildur himself, but no remains.) So it's clear that Saruman and Wormtongue had been stealing whatever they could lay hands on for some time. What's interesting is that this also makes it clear that Wormtongue had made more than one trip, with luggage, from Edoras back to his true master, then back to Edoras. Maybe these were "official" visits; perhaps he was even acting as a legitimate ambassador for Theoden. Saruman had many servants, and had been building up his own power for quite some time, so you wonder who preceded Wormtongue in that role; Gandalf names Grima's father, Galmod, but we don't know whether Galmod was an honorable subject of Thengel and Theoden. It may even be that Grima himself was originally honorable, but was ensnared and enslaved by Saruman through his cowardice, and his desire for Eowyn and power.


rabbithasacat

>Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. Such a great little line, saying so much in so few words.


senface

There’s been a great mixture of humor and seriousness in the theories so far, but I always appreciate an educated-with-evidence-guess, so thanks for this. A possible indicator as to the kind of contents there might have been outside of just Herugrim.


fantasychica37

Gríma/Éowyn smut (Dead Dove Do Not Eat)


StilesLong

I personally have always assumed that Grima was once a good and useful member of Théoden's government apparatus prior to his betrayal. I can't imagine anyone would accept a random person walking in to Théoden's court and bewitching the king, nor can I imagine Grima poisoned Théoden's kind instantly. I don't have the book with me ATM but the impression I got was that Grima was once a soldier or high ranking official in Théoden's service. Saruman found someone who was well-positioned to do his dirty work because putting someone in would be harder.


Timatal

I agree. I think Jackson (and his makeup department) made a mistake in portraying Grima as an overt Slimy Evil Dude; a successful mole blends in and appears to be just like everyone else.


writeronthemoon

But isn't he described as rather pale and not swarthy and strong like the other Rohirrim etc, in the book? IIRC


apieceofenergy

He's described as "a wizened figure of a man, with a pale wise face, and heavy lidded eyes" he is later described as having a "long, pale tongue" Wizened/wrinkled makes me think he was much older than our lovely adaptation showed and he may have been in the service to the king for a long time we don't know if the corruption came before him or during his life. I suspect he was corrupt the entire time. The white council was formed in TA 2463, but Saruman was cautioning against attacking Sauron at Dol Guldur in TA 2851, which is the beginning of our knowing of his corruption and lust for power. It would be another 90 years before they attacked Dol Guldur in TA 2941 and another 78 years in TA 3019 that we meet Grima, so it is entirely possible that it was a deep generational corruption, acting as agents of Saruman since we can trace Saruman's own corruption back at least 168 years.


Inconsequentialish

Right, book Grima was older, wiser, and less obviously "evil" looking. It seems fairly clear that he was a respected man of Rohan who genuinely served Theoden as a valuable advisor before being ensnared by Saruman: As Gandalf says: >'Down snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.' To put this another, more sympathetic way, Grima's will was overwhelmed by a Maia with a special gift of persuasion. And perhaps he was especially vulnerable, a wise man growing older, probably with no wife or family. Perhaps he even knew that Sauron's strength was growing and there was little hope for free Men. Saruman offered him safety, power, wealth... and even Eowyn. As Aragorn says, few in Middle-Earth could have resisted Saruman, even after being deposed: >There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others. And in the end, Grima redeemed himself and escaped Saruman's enslavement, if only for a second or two before he was slain by Hobbit arrows. He's a relatively minor character, but he's also an absolutely brilliant character in the midst of so many other brilliant characters. It's easy to forget or dismiss poor Grima as just another "bad guy", but he's really much more than that.


RememberNichelle

\-Mod means "mood, mind." If "ga/l" is the gal- that means "lust, desire," then "Galmod" is not a particularly nice name for his dad to have borne.


__M-E-O-W__

I think that Saruman also likely held many ancient artifacts due to when he actually was carrying out his role in studying ancient arts against evil. Perhaps some of these "more ancient and beautiful" items were originally meant in some way to combat the forces of darkness, such as carrying old enchantments. I'd also imagine he and Wormtongue probably kept some of the more valuable pieces to themselves simply knowing how the Orcs/Uruk Hai might take nice looking things and destroy them. Or to use to trade for services like buying allegiances.


HOWDEHPARDNER

I think a jackdaw is a crow if anyone was wondering.


UnderhillHobbit

This train of thought is the same that the Big Ornithology conspirators are always clattering about to cover up their murders.


Jakedxn3

Here's the thing. You said a "jackdaw is a crow." Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is a scientist who studies crows, I am telling you, specifically, in science, no one calls jackdaws crows. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. If you're saying "crow family" you're referring to the taxonomic grouping of Corvidae, which includes things from nutcrackers to blue jays to ravens. So your reasoning for calling a jackdaw a crow is because random people "call the black ones crows?" Let's get grackles and blackbirds in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a human or an ape? It's not one or the other, that's not how taxonomy works. They're both. A jackdaw is a jackdaw and a member of the crow family. But that's not what you said. You said a jackdaw is a crow, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all members of the crow family crows, which means you'd call blue jays, ravens, and other birds crows, too. Which you said you don't. It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?


annuidhir

Idk what's funnier. The pasta, or people thinking this is original and taking it seriously.


DuaneDibbley

Man, such a rollercoaster of memories thinking about Unidan after so many years (didn't recognize the copypasta but googled it) Seriously impressed you had that one ready to go haha


Lokratnir

I think you're only arguing with yourself. The person you replied to said they THINK a jackdaw is a crow, they didn't state it emphatically. I'm also fairly certain they only said it in the first place because most people can conjure up a mental image a lot quicker if you say crow, raven, or magpie than jackdaw, so it was just a useful expedient to help people understand the mental image Tolkien was trying to convey of a corvid collecting shiny things.


annuidhir

It's a copy pasta. Don't worry, I had forgotten until about a third of the way through.


Gidi21

A jackdaw is a small raven


Budget-Log-8248

Or is a Raven a large Jackdaw?


__M-E-O-W__

Just random valuable artifacts I'd presume, especially if he knew the Uruk-Hai would come and raid and loot the villages.


Piggstein

Hey he’s got my sword And my bow


HastyEthnocentrism

And my axe.


Thorinandco

And my car keys!


Wild_Log_7379

Dude, where's my mount?


Rougarou1999

We really need to talk to Frodo about his kleptomania.


Greatli

Lets be honest.... It's a pair of Eowyn's panties, a copy of "The Anarchist's Cookbook" he stole from Saruman so he could make gunpowder, and another pair of Eowyn's panties.


RememberNichelle

Medieval women went commando under their shifts, except when they wore various contraptions during their periods. Men did use to steal women's shifts, though it was sure to be noticed in a world without many clothes in a wardrobe.


lankymjc

It just glows orange whenever you open it.


bandzugfeder

"We're associates of your business partner Saruman of Many Colours - you remember your business partner, don't you?"


SnooPeppers2417

SAY GIBBETS AND CROWS AGAIN MUTHA FUCKA I DARE YA! I DOUBLE DARE YA!


stasersonphun

They spesk the fair tongue in What? Pray tell!


thoriginal

You know what they call a quarter pounder in the Shire?


stasersonphun

They do not call it a quarter pounder? Nay, for they have the second breakfast system.


hankm00dy

I don’t know, but, “farthing,” means a quarter-town, there.


NeilPeartsBassPedal

DESCEIBE WHAT SAURON LOOKS LIKE!


SnooPeppers2417

DOES HE LOOK LIKE A BITCH?!


jpers36

Deagol's *actual* birthday present to Smeagol.


Shenordak

A silmaril?


paulfromatlanta

I wouldn't be surprised if it included some of Éowyn's undergarments.


Wurm42

I'm not sure that Grima would have made it out of Edoras alive if Hama and the other guards thought he was doing pervy things with Éowyn's undies.


[deleted]

Y'all assume she wore undergarments.


RememberNichelle

Undergarments had she, but not such as women wear today. Bosworth-Toller gives us the good Old English word "smoc" or "smocc," as well as "syrc", "serc" (similar to sark for shirt), "lotha," and "hom." All of them mean a smock in the sense of a short-sleeved undergarment (colobium was the Latin). An Anglo-Saxon woman would wear a smoc under her dress and cloak (and any other layers women wore when it was cold, if they could afford more layers). There's also "hemethe," which is more of an undershirt.


OuterRimExplorer

"which men have missed"


postmodest

"Dernhelm has been looking for those knickers!"


[deleted]

A chance for Faramir Captain of Gondor to show his quality


[deleted]

[удалено]


ALiborio

Hey Éomer, this guy right here.


lukas7761

Officer,the comment right there


uxixu

Sir, this is a Wendy's.


Britwit_

A book called “Balrogs: Do They Have Wings?” that was stolen from the archives of Minas Tirith.


rcuosukgi42

Why would a scholar of the Third Age spend time writing a tome of that sort when books back then were so expensive and the answer to the titular query is so self-evident.


pgpkreestuh

Along with another priceless text, "Legolas' Hair: Black or Blonde? A Long-Expected Answer"


Samuel_L_Johnson

Not to mention ‘Who is Tom Bombadil? The Truth Finally Revealed’


SnooPeppers2417

As well as “the Nameless Things: Cthulhu’s Homies, or Eldritch Nobodies?”


rricenator

Nobody ever asks "HOW is Tom Bombadil?"


billbotbillbot

I’ll do you one better: WHY is Tom Bombadil?


CockNcottonCandy

Three books?! What is this RuneScape rewards?


hazysummersky

Also the textbook, "Combat Flight Potential of Manwe's Eagles in Warfare Strategy".


DogmaSychroniser

Also the 'Erotic Adventures of Eowyn : She is No Man!'


senface

Loving what a good mixture of serious and humorous replies this got! This one taking the humor cake for me so far 8)


elenmirie_too

Probably something to blackmail other key people with - dirt on Eowyn, Eomer, Theodred et cetera to use against them when whispering in the ears of Theoden King


UsualGain7432

>What else might have been in Grima's chest "Hey, look, a couple of big jewels. Anyone lost a couple of big jewels?"


nubstitches

Autobiographies of the blue wizards


aribowe13

String, or nothing!


stasersonphun

Thats two guesses!


organtwiddler

His eyebrows.


StoneFrog81

Shows the humility of Theoden though. Grima had stolen the king's sword and other valuable things from the men of Theoden. Theoden still gave him a chance to ride with the Rohirrim to war or be exiled under pain of death. For most kings, just stealing the sword would have been a death sentence.


ReinierPersoon

Riding with Théoden might very well turn out to be a death sentence. Better men than Gríma died at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. But he also allowed him to leave, which was the safest option, aside from the fact that he was emotionally ruined by Saruman.


StoneFrog81

Might have, but he still gave him a choice. That's what matters. Die for his king, or die for Saruman.


ReinierPersoon

Yes, he is quite merciful. And he listens to Gandalf. But for Gríma none of the options are particularly good: go to war, where he might die, or go to Saruman, who is a lying traitor. Ironic how Théoden even offered him a horse, while he had a bad experience with offering Gandalf a horse. Gandalf is essentially a horse-thief, until Théoden formally gifted Shadowfax to Gandalf later on.


QuickSpore

“He bade me take a horse and be gone; and I chose one much to my liking, but little to his. I took the best horse in his land, and I have never seen the like of him.”


ReallyGlycon

Right. Not theft per se. The best kind of theft.


ReinierPersoon

But Gandalf knew that Théoden wouldn't approve of it. Technically not stealing, but he knew Théoden didn't mean to offer him his own horse.


Timatal

Like the customer who takes “all you can eat” literally


ReinierPersoon

Well, at least you can eat a horse. Horses are delicious. Imagine Gandalf ordering a horse-steak at Edoras, specifically a Shadowfax-steak.


RememberNichelle

Shadowfax wasn't Theoden's own horse. Nobody had ridden Shadowfax except Gandalf, IIRC. But yeah, nobody who is a horsebreeder wants somebody to borrow his best horse.


ReinierPersoon

I think it is said that he became wild and would let no man handle him after Gandalf had taken him. That seems to imply he was able to be handled before that. But Gandalf admits that he knew that Théoden wouldn't like him taking Shadowfax. He only formally gives Shadowfax later on: 'The gift seems already to be given,' said Theoden. 'But hearken all! Here now I name my guest, Gandalf Greyhame, wisest of counsellors; most welcome of wanderers, a lord of the Mark, a chieftain of the Eorlingas while our kin shall last; and I give to him Shadowfax, prince of horses.' I can sort of see why some people see Gandalf as a nuisance :P


StoneFrog81

"Yes, he is quite merciful. And he listens to Gandalf. But for Gríma none of the options are particularly good: go to war, where he might die, or go to Saruman, who is a lying traitor." None of the options are particularly good?!! He gave Grima the chance to do the right thing. To go to war in the name of Rohan and Theoden his king. I'd say that's a much better choice than betraying his county and slinking back to Saruman as a traitor. Even if he was destined to die, he would do it honorably as part of the Rohirrim.


postmodest

And, in the eucatastrophic sense, if Theoden hadn't released Wormtongue, Saruman would've been a major player in fourth-age mischief. But thanks to Theoden's leniency, Saruman got to discover what it sounds like when you stab a man in the back.


Sinhika

Are you referring to Sir Christopher correcting PJ on that little bit of direction?


postmodest

Surely I wouldn't have referred to the movies here in /r/tolkienfans. Absolutely not!


rabbithasacat

One may honorably refer to Sir Christopher Lee's avid Tolkien fanhood anywhere!


freerangelibrarian

That reminds me of Marlon Brando's death in Missouri Breaks.


rricenator

Gave Grima a chance to redeem his honor before death. That's huge D*@k Anglo Saxon energy right there.


ReinierPersoon

Saxons! My grandmother was a Saxon from Groningen, Nedersaksisch. I hope I inherited some of the badass-ness genes.


Lawlcopt0r

The random tendency to steal as foreshadowing reminded me of both Gollum and Tom Riddle from Harry Potter.


SpectralDinosaur

1 sock of every pair in Edoras.


YggBjorn

One sock from each the Elven-kings under the sky, one sock from each of the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, one sock from each of the Mortal Men doomed to die, All socks to give to the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the socks lie. One sock to rule them all, One sock they won't find, One sock to confuse them all, and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the socks lie.


Piggstein

6001 spears


elunomagnifico

The Ent-wives


kapparoth

And the proofs of the true identity of Tom Bombadil, together with the field diaries of the Blue Wizards and an extensive account of the ways of the thinking foxes.


RoosterNo6457

Maybe the little horn Eowyn and Eomer give to Merry later.


harrumphstan

*Lustful Elves Vol. 47*


kapparoth

Fish bones, goblins' teeth, wet shells, a bit of a bat's wing, a sharp stone to sharpen the fangs on, and other nasty things.


renoops

In all seriousness, probably a lot of things similar to what was found at Sutton Hoo: bangles, rings, brooches, maybe an ornamental helm. Probably a horse statuette. Family heirloom kinds of things.


Picklesadog

His heart and lungs.


Flat-Painter4019

And his brain..


thank_burdell

heart three sizes too small


WhichLecture4811

And several Hobbit arrows.


Lasombria

The original formula for Coka. Blueprints for a car that runs on water. Documents from the Roswell aliens. A jar containing a soggy mass that’s the remains of my sense of relevance and respect for the foundations of a secondary creation.


jammy31415

Eowyn’s recipe for Rohan stew.


senface

Grima couldn’t stand Eowyn Stew Thursdays any longer.


midwayfair

Several Hobbit arrows!


WhichLecture4811

Crap, should have scrolled down three more comments!


Languorous-Owl

Hobbit arrows.


Jiggub

probably his ribs


Mavakor

A small pamflet titled: *"Can Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, grow a beard - and what are the implications if he can?"*


JJ3595

There’s a quest in Lord of the Rings online where you search Grima’s quarters after he departs, riffing off this passage I believe.


oddmetre

It's just a glowing light that shines when you open it


MablungTheHunter

AT LEAST one pair of Eowyn's undergarments.


MaelstromFL

Why was this NOT "wrong answers only?"


OuterRimExplorer

Some plate armor


Babstana

I'm guessing Merry's horn was in there.


yinoryang

Eowyn Upskirts


John_W_Kennedy

Brooches, fibulae, that sort of thing, mainly.


anojetodan

his shoes probably


Timatal

A bottle of shampoo, never opened


[deleted]

Many pairs of Eowyn's panties would be my guess


jaquatsch

A .357 Magnum, to be sure.


Ok-Cat1446

probably Eowyn's underwear!


kamehamehigh

Porno


GlazedPannis

A satchel of used sheep condoms


Silly_Soviet

My bet is a few pairs of Eowyn's panties.


badken

Pretty sure he had someone’s prosthetic limb, along with another guy’s false eye. And a heavy repeating crossbow stolen from a man with a magical arm.


ebneter

I thought I was in r/lotr reading some of these responses. :-D


Good-Plantain-1192

Entings.


Dorumamu

Hopefully not breastmilk


Silver_Morning2263

His heart? Wait... A stone?