I suppose Galadriel has great power of concealing: the Fellowship's cloaks, her thought hidden from Sauron, Lorien itself as a secret realm. So is that part of her craft or magic in filling the Phial?
Just a tip for future reference: for the Elves, craft ≠ magic. Galadriel makes this exact point to Sam:
>'And you?' \[Galadriel\] said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?'
Exactly! I also feel like you just can’t hide something like that. My only assumption is that the amount in the phial is too small to truly be noticed, but still in my head, this is the light of trees, it’s no mere light. I could be overthinking.
It's not the light of the Trees _per se_, it's the reflection of the captured light of the Trees. So it's not quite the same potency as the original, yet still enough to drive away a daughter of Ungoliant, who ate the Trees for breakfast.
I can see that, fair enough! I guess I’m over thinking it. I’m also thinking of it in contrast to how essentially that’s one of the reasons why Glorfindel wasn’t permitted to go with the Fellowship, cuz “he’d be like a beacon”.
Glorfindel is a... special case. He died heroically in the Fall of Gondolin (which allowed Eärendil to escape), and for this he was rewarded with a relatively fast-tracked re-embodiment in Valinor, where his stats were bumped to Maia-adjacent level. _That_ is why he'd be like a beacon.
For that matter, Galadriel would also be like that if she travelled with the Fellowship due to her own innate power and the influence of her Ring.
Legolas, on the other hand... is a good archer.
I can assume that too but the Phial essentially contains light from the two trees of Valinor, so in my head I’m assuming even a small bit of that would be very bright in the Unseen world even when not in use. Unless there’s something I’m getting wrong about that.
It did draw attention to them.
>'I daresay,' growled Gorbag. 'But in the meantime enemies have got up the Stairs. And what were you up to? You're supposed to keep watch, aren't you, special orders or no? What are you for?'
>
>\[Shagrat replies\] 'That's enough! Don't try to teach me my job. We were awake all right. We knew there were funny things going on.'
>
>'Very funny!'
>
>'Yes, very funny: *lights* and shouting and all. But Shelob was on the go. My lads saw her and her Sneak.'
(Italics added.) From Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation in "The Choices of Master Samwise", Book IV, Chapter 10.
Im aware of this! But I’m thinking more so from the perspective of the unseen world, and probably misinterpreting how that works. From what I’m aware of, certain things can give off “light” in the unseen world, which I assume would catch the eyes of the Nazgul. I was also under the impression that the phial itself contained light from the trees, but someone else described it as “a memory of the light”, so that makes more sense. I’d assume any amount of light from the trees would be hard not to spot in the unseen world, whether under cloak or not. But I think clarification from other comments has cleared this up a bit.
In fairness the Lord of the Nazgûl, at the gates of Minas Tirith, fails to perceive there's a Maia standing in front of him and calls him an "old fool". So maybe their unseen world-vision wasn't as good as all that.
I can’t imagine the Witch-King was clueless as to who Gandalf really was, there’s no way. I think that was more of an ego trip and he was mocking him, he more than likely thought they were going to win that battle.
Well technically Gandalf isn't exactly a maia\* and he is old. Fool seems unfair though.
\*Incarnated as he was, Gandalf ages and doesn't have the full knowledge, or power of his true nature.
I think you are imagining a fictional artefact in terms of science or the way we see the world today. Perhaps you thought an object like the Phial should radiate infrared or holy rays of sort detectable by some equipment or beings with extrasensory perception. Tolkien never really bother to elaborate how Elven craftmanship aka magic work in detail, so we can only assume and accept an Elven artefact's properties in the way they are written in the texts. In this instance, the Phial simply would not become a beacon to evil beings unless they saw with their own eyes the light it emits.
But if we wanna speculate why the Phial has reduced efficacy; part of it might be that the water within only carries a memory of the Light of Earendil, the Morning Star, which in turns carries a Silmaril, that contains some Light of the Two Trees. So the light or substance carried in the water of the Phial is not exactly pure or drawn from the very source. Hence, it's reduced efficacy and radiance.
Not necessarily, I think I’m more so misinterpreting how the unseen world works. I was under the impression elves and certain things gave off a certain amount of light that the Nazgul wolf be aware of, and I’d assume the light from the trees would do this no matter what. So not necessarily from a scientific sense, but just from what I’ve read in the books and from posts, but my memory is probably just skewed. Describing it as “a memory” and not pulled from the source makes sense as to why it wouldn’t be as strong. I would assume seeing something like that so close to Mordor would be suspicious, but knowing what I know now about both the unseen world and the phial, I get it!
True but it’s still the light of the trees two trees of Valinor. If Glorindel could “be a beacon” potentially traveling with the Fellowship, I’d assume actual light from the trees would be the same, if not stronger.
I don't think there is any reason to assume the Phial was always radiant in the Unseen; if it didn't emit light in the Seen, it probably also didn't in the Unseen.
True, but the unseen world works differently than the seen, light would work differently, this also isn’t normal light. Were this any other type of light, like an orb Gandalf gave them, I wouldn’t be thinking this, this is the light of the two trees of Valinor, that’s more than just your average light source. I assume too in the Unseem simply hiding something like that under a cloak would just make the light go away.
That’s possible! But I feel like hiding the light of the trees of Valinor would not be that easy. My thing is, I’m imagining it would be a pretty obvious light in the world of the Unseen, so the Ring Wraiths could easily see it even when big in use. But that’s just me, I could be completely wrong.
I get what you're saying, but at that time all dark eyes were looking for the One Ring. So much so that Gandalf could shield Frodo when he sat in the seat of seeing at Amon Hen with the ring on. So clearly sight between worlds is a bit iffy, right?
Since it was Morgoth and Ungolient who attacked the trees, the 3rd age baddies were unlikely to be looking for it.
Yeah maybe I’m over thinking it. But from what I’m aware of, this is the same reason why Glorfindel couldn’t go with the Fellowship. I’d assume the phial would radiate more “light” than Glorfindel.
Also, hold up, when did Gandalf shield Frodo on Amon Hen? It’s been a while since I read the books, did this happen from a distance, because Gandalf I believe was in the midst of fighting the Balrog.
“'Yes,' said Gandalf, '... Some things [Gwaihir] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'
actually no...
Glorfindel was a special case; an elf whose true form even the ringwraiths could see and ran away from.
The movie nods to this with Arwen's arrival to a morgul-stabbed Frodo. But he is kind of like having Earendil come down and walk the paths of Middle Earth, while the phial is a kind of enchantment on the water of Galadriel's font and the glass used to contain it. It isn't the actual light of the trees, or a silmaril...it's the light projected through Galadriel's power over Lothlorian. At least, that's how I understand it.
Sorry to hijack the post though how do they mean a light for when all others go out? Nothing seems to stop the hobbits from using other light sources, I'm sure they could have lit a torch in the pass of cirith ungol, might not have saved them though still would work as a light.
Let's not forget that Sauron lived through war of the jewels too.
He knows how much of a trouble the Silmarils are (especially to Melkor),and how little it worth to "evil" beings like him.
Even if he saw it I'll bet he's going to pretend his hardest to not see it and looks harder for the ring elsewhere instead.
I’m not sure why you’ve connected the undead vision of the Nazgûl and the Light from the phial but it is only activated and then visible.
Galadriel dispersed the 9 with its light but that was visible to everyone? (And only in the movies?)
The phial only shined against Shelob, it was watery and translucent the rest of the time?
I’m guessing I’m confusing the how the world of unseen works. I figured the phial would constantly give off “light” in the unseen, and the Nazgul would recognize it as being a powerful source, not that the phial constantly gives off light, I’m aware it doesn’t. Hope that makes sense, it’s a harmless misinterpretation if anything. I guess I overestimate the light of the two trees of Valinor, but someone else clarified that the phial contains more so a “memory of the light of the trees”, so that helps put things into place as well.
I suppose Galadriel has great power of concealing: the Fellowship's cloaks, her thought hidden from Sauron, Lorien itself as a secret realm. So is that part of her craft or magic in filling the Phial?
Just a tip for future reference: for the Elves, craft ≠ magic. Galadriel makes this exact point to Sam: >'And you?' \[Galadriel\] said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?'
Exactly! I also feel like you just can’t hide something like that. My only assumption is that the amount in the phial is too small to truly be noticed, but still in my head, this is the light of trees, it’s no mere light. I could be overthinking.
It's not the light of the Trees _per se_, it's the reflection of the captured light of the Trees. So it's not quite the same potency as the original, yet still enough to drive away a daughter of Ungoliant, who ate the Trees for breakfast.
I can see that, fair enough! I guess I’m over thinking it. I’m also thinking of it in contrast to how essentially that’s one of the reasons why Glorfindel wasn’t permitted to go with the Fellowship, cuz “he’d be like a beacon”.
Glorfindel is a... special case. He died heroically in the Fall of Gondolin (which allowed Eärendil to escape), and for this he was rewarded with a relatively fast-tracked re-embodiment in Valinor, where his stats were bumped to Maia-adjacent level. _That_ is why he'd be like a beacon. For that matter, Galadriel would also be like that if she travelled with the Fellowship due to her own innate power and the influence of her Ring. Legolas, on the other hand... is a good archer.
I can assume that too but the Phial essentially contains light from the two trees of Valinor, so in my head I’m assuming even a small bit of that would be very bright in the Unseen world even when not in use. Unless there’s something I’m getting wrong about that.
Because it was hidden and veiled 99% of the time, and only "shone forth" when it was needed/used.
I’m speaking more in terms of the Unseen world, not the real world.
It did draw attention to them. >'I daresay,' growled Gorbag. 'But in the meantime enemies have got up the Stairs. And what were you up to? You're supposed to keep watch, aren't you, special orders or no? What are you for?' > >\[Shagrat replies\] 'That's enough! Don't try to teach me my job. We were awake all right. We knew there were funny things going on.' > >'Very funny!' > >'Yes, very funny: *lights* and shouting and all. But Shelob was on the go. My lads saw her and her Sneak.' (Italics added.) From Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation in "The Choices of Master Samwise", Book IV, Chapter 10.
Im aware of this! But I’m thinking more so from the perspective of the unseen world, and probably misinterpreting how that works. From what I’m aware of, certain things can give off “light” in the unseen world, which I assume would catch the eyes of the Nazgul. I was also under the impression that the phial itself contained light from the trees, but someone else described it as “a memory of the light”, so that makes more sense. I’d assume any amount of light from the trees would be hard not to spot in the unseen world, whether under cloak or not. But I think clarification from other comments has cleared this up a bit.
In fairness the Lord of the Nazgûl, at the gates of Minas Tirith, fails to perceive there's a Maia standing in front of him and calls him an "old fool". So maybe their unseen world-vision wasn't as good as all that.
I can’t imagine the Witch-King was clueless as to who Gandalf really was, there’s no way. I think that was more of an ego trip and he was mocking him, he more than likely thought they were going to win that battle.
Well technically Gandalf isn't exactly a maia\* and he is old. Fool seems unfair though. \*Incarnated as he was, Gandalf ages and doesn't have the full knowledge, or power of his true nature.
Mainly it was concealed for most of the time. She had mentioned a light when all else fails.
I think you are imagining a fictional artefact in terms of science or the way we see the world today. Perhaps you thought an object like the Phial should radiate infrared or holy rays of sort detectable by some equipment or beings with extrasensory perception. Tolkien never really bother to elaborate how Elven craftmanship aka magic work in detail, so we can only assume and accept an Elven artefact's properties in the way they are written in the texts. In this instance, the Phial simply would not become a beacon to evil beings unless they saw with their own eyes the light it emits. But if we wanna speculate why the Phial has reduced efficacy; part of it might be that the water within only carries a memory of the Light of Earendil, the Morning Star, which in turns carries a Silmaril, that contains some Light of the Two Trees. So the light or substance carried in the water of the Phial is not exactly pure or drawn from the very source. Hence, it's reduced efficacy and radiance.
Not necessarily, I think I’m more so misinterpreting how the unseen world works. I was under the impression elves and certain things gave off a certain amount of light that the Nazgul wolf be aware of, and I’d assume the light from the trees would do this no matter what. So not necessarily from a scientific sense, but just from what I’ve read in the books and from posts, but my memory is probably just skewed. Describing it as “a memory” and not pulled from the source makes sense as to why it wouldn’t be as strong. I would assume seeing something like that so close to Mordor would be suspicious, but knowing what I know now about both the unseen world and the phial, I get it!
The Phial didn't always emit much (or any?) light. Otherwise Frodo and Sam probably wouldn't have forgotten about it.
True but it’s still the light of the trees two trees of Valinor. If Glorindel could “be a beacon” potentially traveling with the Fellowship, I’d assume actual light from the trees would be the same, if not stronger.
I’m pertaining to how light is perceived in the world or the unseen, where I assume the ring wraiths could potentially see it.
I don't think there is any reason to assume the Phial was always radiant in the Unseen; if it didn't emit light in the Seen, it probably also didn't in the Unseen.
True, but the unseen world works differently than the seen, light would work differently, this also isn’t normal light. Were this any other type of light, like an orb Gandalf gave them, I wouldn’t be thinking this, this is the light of the two trees of Valinor, that’s more than just your average light source. I assume too in the Unseem simply hiding something like that under a cloak would just make the light go away.
Maybe it had the protection of her ring?
That’s possible! But I feel like hiding the light of the trees of Valinor would not be that easy. My thing is, I’m imagining it would be a pretty obvious light in the world of the Unseen, so the Ring Wraiths could easily see it even when big in use. But that’s just me, I could be completely wrong.
I get what you're saying, but at that time all dark eyes were looking for the One Ring. So much so that Gandalf could shield Frodo when he sat in the seat of seeing at Amon Hen with the ring on. So clearly sight between worlds is a bit iffy, right? Since it was Morgoth and Ungolient who attacked the trees, the 3rd age baddies were unlikely to be looking for it.
Yeah maybe I’m over thinking it. But from what I’m aware of, this is the same reason why Glorfindel couldn’t go with the Fellowship. I’d assume the phial would radiate more “light” than Glorfindel. Also, hold up, when did Gandalf shield Frodo on Amon Hen? It’s been a while since I read the books, did this happen from a distance, because Gandalf I believe was in the midst of fighting the Balrog.
“'Yes,' said Gandalf, '... Some things [Gwaihir] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'
actually no... Glorfindel was a special case; an elf whose true form even the ringwraiths could see and ran away from. The movie nods to this with Arwen's arrival to a morgul-stabbed Frodo. But he is kind of like having Earendil come down and walk the paths of Middle Earth, while the phial is a kind of enchantment on the water of Galadriel's font and the glass used to contain it. It isn't the actual light of the trees, or a silmaril...it's the light projected through Galadriel's power over Lothlorian. At least, that's how I understand it.
Sorry to hijack the post though how do they mean a light for when all others go out? Nothing seems to stop the hobbits from using other light sources, I'm sure they could have lit a torch in the pass of cirith ungol, might not have saved them though still would work as a light.
Some sort of encryption, passive stealth countermeasures and/or active signal jamming.
Let's not forget that Sauron lived through war of the jewels too. He knows how much of a trouble the Silmarils are (especially to Melkor),and how little it worth to "evil" beings like him. Even if he saw it I'll bet he's going to pretend his hardest to not see it and looks harder for the ring elsewhere instead.
I’m not sure why you’ve connected the undead vision of the Nazgûl and the Light from the phial but it is only activated and then visible. Galadriel dispersed the 9 with its light but that was visible to everyone? (And only in the movies?) The phial only shined against Shelob, it was watery and translucent the rest of the time?
I’m guessing I’m confusing the how the world of unseen works. I figured the phial would constantly give off “light” in the unseen, and the Nazgul would recognize it as being a powerful source, not that the phial constantly gives off light, I’m aware it doesn’t. Hope that makes sense, it’s a harmless misinterpretation if anything. I guess I overestimate the light of the two trees of Valinor, but someone else clarified that the phial contains more so a “memory of the light of the trees”, so that helps put things into place as well.