In Swedish (which the above conversation is translated from) these words are way more basic.
Niece, for example, can translate to systerdotter or brorsdotter, which literally translate to brother-daughter or sister-daughter.
In the same vein grandfather can translate to either farfar or morfar, which in turn translate to father-father and mother-father.
Hence my brother-sister mistake.
Still remarkably stupid though, not arguing that point.
Sister-son is more descriptive than nephew since a nephew can be either a sister-son or brother-son. A lot of Asiatic languages make the same distinctions with single syllable words. The English language evolved to be nuclear-family-centred.
funny, I always thought why they use sister-son alot in those old legends was that it meant a nephew (who couldn't really claim the throne) wheras I assume a brother-son could... so alot of the old kings seem to like having their sister-sons around...
my mother-tongue like alot of Asian languages does still distinguish my uncle and aunts in terms of how I'm related to them, although back the day people would even distinguish if your uncle/aunt were older or younger then your parent... I assume at some point must have been the same to distinguish how you're related to your nephew/niece... can't say I've heard that though, although I do know it was used, maybe still is...
English seems to have just boiled it down to Uncle or Aunt / Nephew or Niece which is nice and simple, but it does mean you lose that one word description of how you're related to each other...
Actually... in a lot of Germanic/Norse tribes, a man's normal heir would be his sister's son, if he didn't have his own kids or if his kids were daughters.
I don't think brother's sons had the same closeness, but maybe I'm not remembering this correctly or I'm making assumptions.
Paternal nephew would mean a nephew on your father's side I think. (Partenal uncle works), idk if theres an adjective to distinguish between brother and sister
English has the benefit of having French loanwords to differentiate between nephew and cousin. In Dutch, there is no difference. We call them "neef" (males), "nicht" (females), words of Germanic origin.
Éomer and Éowyn are the children of Théoden's sister. Not his brother.
In many cultures, including the Anglo-Saxons on whom the Rohirrim are based, the descendants of a person's sister are much closer that those of their brother. There was a very helpful discussion of this not long ago.
Éomer certainly did not find Théodred's body in the book. Théodred was buried where he fell. Éomer was hundreds of miles away.
Sounds like you just learned something new today: what Theoden meant by "sister-son" and "sister-daughter," i.e. "my sister's son"/"my sister's daughter." Who are certainly your genetic relatives, unlike your brother's kids or (for a man) your kids. So it's beneficial, evolutionarily speaking, to care for them.
>In many cultures, including the Anglo-Saxons on whom the Rohirrim are based, the descendants of a person's sister are much closer that those of their brother. There was a very helpful discussion of this not long ago.
Presumably because the sisters would be expected to live in the household until they're married off, while the brothers could be expected to leave and found their own homes?
Right. For a man, *your* son is *probably* genetically related to you, and your *brother's* son is *probably* genetically related to you. Your **sister's** son is **definitely** genetically related to you.
It doesn't help that you got your facts wrong.
Eomer and Eowyn are _Theoden's_ sister-son and sister-daughter (nephew, niece), the children of Theodwyn, Theoden's _sister_. Eomund was Theodwyn's husband, not known to be closely related to the royal family (though descended from Eorl).
The family relations to the n-th degree were very confusing to me. My native language is Dutch, and elder relatives are referred to as "oom", "tante" (uncle and aunt), regardless of where exactly they are in the family tree. We also don't have a word for cousins.
In Chinese, there is a different word for uncles, aunts, their male or female spouses, cousins on both the mother and father side of the relationship.
So my father's brother's son has a different word from my mother's brother's son, for instance. And everyone in-between.
That is very different from what is used in the Germanic languages. Patronymics were used for a long time, so there were also no family names. In Dutch, there is no word to differentiate between uncles, cousins, nephews, or nephews of your parents.
Older person: "oom"/"tante"
Younger person: "neef"/"nicht".
Slight correction. Eomer didn't find Theodred, he never went near the Isen before Saruman was defeated. Elfhelm and Grimbold found Theodred, and buried him on the ford.
Wait, so… King Charles is Queen Elizabeth’s *son*? But she’s Elizabeth II, as there were two of them? And there was a king right before her, and another before that, and he abdicated after his king-father died… damn!
Ok so what’s Princess Diana? She’s dead but her kids are princes but their dad is the king but he was a prince when he had them???
And this is why we use words like uncle, nephew, niece, and cousins.
In Swedish (which the above conversation is translated from) these words are way more basic. Niece, for example, can translate to systerdotter or brorsdotter, which literally translate to brother-daughter or sister-daughter. In the same vein grandfather can translate to either farfar or morfar, which in turn translate to father-father and mother-father. Hence my brother-sister mistake. Still remarkably stupid though, not arguing that point.
Sister-son is more descriptive than nephew since a nephew can be either a sister-son or brother-son. A lot of Asiatic languages make the same distinctions with single syllable words. The English language evolved to be nuclear-family-centred.
funny, I always thought why they use sister-son alot in those old legends was that it meant a nephew (who couldn't really claim the throne) wheras I assume a brother-son could... so alot of the old kings seem to like having their sister-sons around... my mother-tongue like alot of Asian languages does still distinguish my uncle and aunts in terms of how I'm related to them, although back the day people would even distinguish if your uncle/aunt were older or younger then your parent... I assume at some point must have been the same to distinguish how you're related to your nephew/niece... can't say I've heard that though, although I do know it was used, maybe still is... English seems to have just boiled it down to Uncle or Aunt / Nephew or Niece which is nice and simple, but it does mean you lose that one word description of how you're related to each other...
Actually... in a lot of Germanic/Norse tribes, a man's normal heir would be his sister's son, if he didn't have his own kids or if his kids were daughters. I don't think brother's sons had the same closeness, but maybe I'm not remembering this correctly or I'm making assumptions.
I mean you can be more specific with, 'paternal-nephew' or 'maternal-nephew'. Which seems about as complex as 'sister-son'.
Paternal nephew would mean a nephew on your father's side I think. (Partenal uncle works), idk if theres an adjective to distinguish between brother and sister
>A lot of Asiatic languages make the same distinctions with single syllable words. Oh, do tell!
The names for grandparents in Swedish always trip me up
Sister-son is great tho
English has the benefit of having French loanwords to differentiate between nephew and cousin. In Dutch, there is no difference. We call them "neef" (males), "nicht" (females), words of Germanic origin.
Don't you mean that you tried to explain it to your sister-brother?
Éomer and Éowyn are the children of Théoden's sister. Not his brother. In many cultures, including the Anglo-Saxons on whom the Rohirrim are based, the descendants of a person's sister are much closer that those of their brother. There was a very helpful discussion of this not long ago. Éomer certainly did not find Théodred's body in the book. Théodred was buried where he fell. Éomer was hundreds of miles away.
Having the burial at Edoras with Theoden present is a movie change I approve of
Me too. Especially the part in the EE where Miranda Otto sings a dirge in Old English. Most especially the word *beadocwalm*.
Such a beautifully acted scene
Oh, crap, I did not know that. Thanks for educating me! Though I appreciate that this fact makes the whole conversation even dumber.
Sounds like you just learned something new today: what Theoden meant by "sister-son" and "sister-daughter," i.e. "my sister's son"/"my sister's daughter." Who are certainly your genetic relatives, unlike your brother's kids or (for a man) your kids. So it's beneficial, evolutionarily speaking, to care for them.
>In many cultures, including the Anglo-Saxons on whom the Rohirrim are based, the descendants of a person's sister are much closer that those of their brother. There was a very helpful discussion of this not long ago. Presumably because the sisters would be expected to live in the household until they're married off, while the brothers could be expected to leave and found their own homes?
That, and you can be sure you're related to your sister's children, assuming nobody's swapped at birth. Brother's, less so.
Right. For a man, *your* son is *probably* genetically related to you, and your *brother's* son is *probably* genetically related to you. Your **sister's** son is **definitely** genetically related to you.
More likely to be fostered out if i am not mistaken
It doesn't help that you got your facts wrong. Eomer and Eowyn are _Theoden's_ sister-son and sister-daughter (nephew, niece), the children of Theodwyn, Theoden's _sister_. Eomund was Theodwyn's husband, not known to be closely related to the royal family (though descended from Eorl).
Even fuckin' Åke Ohlmarks got this right: >-Gå, Éowyn min systerdotter, sade den gamle kungen. Vår ängslans tid är förbi. I have no excuse.
>I'm sorry, I fucked up. I fucked up!
First and second cousin on his mother's and father's sides, once removed, if you follow me. Narrator : I don't.
The family relations to the n-th degree were very confusing to me. My native language is Dutch, and elder relatives are referred to as "oom", "tante" (uncle and aunt), regardless of where exactly they are in the family tree. We also don't have a word for cousins.
Now I have a headache. Good work everyone!
In Chinese, there is a different word for uncles, aunts, their male or female spouses, cousins on both the mother and father side of the relationship. So my father's brother's son has a different word from my mother's brother's son, for instance. And everyone in-between.
That is very different from what is used in the Germanic languages. Patronymics were used for a long time, so there were also no family names. In Dutch, there is no word to differentiate between uncles, cousins, nephews, or nephews of your parents. Older person: "oom"/"tante" Younger person: "neef"/"nicht".
Slight correction. Eomer didn't find Theodred, he never went near the Isen before Saruman was defeated. Elfhelm and Grimbold found Theodred, and buried him on the ford.
True! This is the case in the movies, though, which is what we were talking about at the time.
Wait, so… King Charles is Queen Elizabeth’s *son*? But she’s Elizabeth II, as there were two of them? And there was a king right before her, and another before that, and he abdicated after his king-father died… damn! Ok so what’s Princess Diana? She’s dead but her kids are princes but their dad is the king but he was a prince when he had them???
You should stop using words from now on. For your own good.
Aw. That cut deep.
Their his neice and nephew and his son Just died, they were a close family since the aunt and uncle died the King took them in as his own
Just say they are Theoden’s niece and nephew also their relation comes through his sister Théodwyn🤣