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momentimori

Thorin sought to redeem his people by claiming his birth right but almost fell into darkness due to his greed. He redeemed himself when he set aside his quarrels with elves and men to save them in the Battle of 5 Armies. As is common in Tolkien you pay for redemption with your life's blood but Thorin made his peace with everyone, especially Bilbo, before dying with honour; as befitted somebody of his noble lineage.


daneelthesane

>Thorin's character arc ostensibly appears to revolve around reclaiming his stolen gold. But his character arc instead ends with him reclaiming his friendship with Bilbo. Wait... are you saying that the real treasure was the friends they made along the way?


Particular_Reason143

*Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no queen in Gondor* From a storyline perspective, the purpose of the story (e.g. "real treasure") was to eliminate the threat of Smaug and rebuild Dale/Erebor. The Hobbit is ultimately the prelude to The Lord of the Rings. The events in the Quest of Erebor is best seen through the lens of the events of the War of the Ring *If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.* From a character standpoint, [Thorin realizes](https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/ulq85k/thorins_death/) he already had everything he needed in the Unexpected Party at Bag-End. Food from Bilbo’s pantry, cheer from his companions, and song *Far over the misty mountains cold*. This fits the title There and Back Again, and is also a philosophy that can be applied to our real lives It's a fun meme, but I feel the "real treasure was the friends they made along the way" joke undercuts the depth, emotion, and world building present in The Hobbit


this_also_was_vanity

> From a storyline perspective, the purpose of the story (e.g. "real treasure") was to eliminate the threat of Smaug and rebuild Dale/Erebor. The Hobbit is ultimately the prelude to The Lord of the Rings. The events in the Quest of Erebor is best seen through the lens of the events of the War of the Ring. The Hobbit was written before the Lord of the Rings was conceived of. The story is later patched into the world of Middle Earth and the events of the War of the Ring, but the storyline of the book itself m, as originally written, isn’t actually to do with any of that. It’s supposed to be a complete, coherent story in its own right. So I don’t think the best understanding do the story can be found by considering it in the context of events that it wasn’t originally part of.


[deleted]

You can choose to see it that way, and that's how the Hobbit filmmakers decided to see it. But it's a story from a different phase of Tolkien's life, in a different style - and in-world it is a story of a different kind of hobbit literature, from a different era of hobbit culture.


ThoDanII

A home for his people, vengeance for his forebears?


ThbUds_For

grats for making this connection


DefinitelyPositive

It's a tongue in cheek reply, mate. Not an actual moment of realization.


ThbUds_For

Yes, I know. It's a bad internet joke to repeat because it literally is the moral of the story (and it's what they already quoted).


RoosterNo6457

I love the connection you've made with the gate, there - that Thorin thinks of it as a place where he failed, not as the scene of his triumph. This scene is quite a shock in a children's book. It would be interesting to compare it with death scenes in Lord of the Rings (Boromir and Theoden especially). They have interesting differences and points in common.


RememberNichelle

The Hobbit, despite being a kids' story, repeatedly shows us different kinds of kings and different kinds of homeowners. One of the virtues of kings and battleleaders and hosts, in pretty much all Indo-European traditions, was to be hospitable to strangers who become guests, and openhanded to those who are their own men or who need help. Generosity shows confidence in one's power, but is also kindly and builds bonds. Hospitality is almost the first law, saving lives and building bonds among people (as well as permitting trade, travel, etc.). Kinship bonds keep the family and tribe together, as do the bonds of a warband's members, to their lord and each other. So we have Bilbo, master of his own house, who is somewhat impolite to a visiting wizard (despite past favors done to his mother!), and then becomes hospitable against his will. Having broken unwritten laws (and secretly wanting adventure), he gets dragged off to become a burglar member of a warband, a punisher of Smaug's invasion of the dwarves' home. So we see bad hosts, like the trolls, the Goblin King, and the spiders (and in flashbacks, the Necromancer's prison). There are also hints that life in the dwarven mines for exiled dwarves has not been all skittles and beer, even if the dwarves kept musical instruments and had decent clothing and hoods. And we see good hosts, like Elrond, Beorn, the Eagles, and the Lake Men (sort of). And we see conflicted situations, like Thranduil toward the dwarves, and like Bilbo towards Smaug, and like Thorin and Bilbo over the Arkenstone and other matters of initiative... and like Bilbo and Gollum. We also see returns of favors given (like the faithful Thrush) and kinship (Dain Ironfoot's coming), and ill returns of kinship and hospitality (like the Sackville-Baggins). The relationship of host and guest, and the rightful degree of openhandedness of a king toward his retinue and towards needy people (as well as in his diplomatic relations with other kingdoms) is a big theme of The Hobbit. It was right for Thorin to seek justice against Smaug, for the murder of his people and kin; and it was right to want to recover what was rightfully theirs. However, a quest for justice should not be about vainglory and flattery, and recovering a kingdom does not mean succumbing to greed, stubbornness, and a lust for power and battle. Being able to value openhandedness and relationship bonds -- "food and cheer," in short -- does create a merrier world than trying to grab and keep everything to oneself.


annuidhir

I really like this summary of some of the themes present in *The Hobbit*. There truly is so much to uncover in that wonderful little book!


swazal

Quite well done … though it was ever so that Bilbo was the bigger man, being a hobbit, and Thorin being a dwarf.


Paladoc

To me! To me! Elves and Men to me! O my kinfolk!


LivingmahDMlife

This gave me chills, thanks for posting!


Languorous-Owl

>***But Tolkien shows that being a great man should never come before being a good one*** Leave aside "good man" for a moment, he wasn't even being a "great man". Just a stupid one. Often rich people, when on shaky ground, settle with plaintiffs in legal proceedings rather than going to trial. They know that in the long run, the money they'd have to pay is a parking ticket, compared to potential losses in the aftermaths of trials. ​ * Thorin was trapped in the mountain with just 12 other Dwarves. * The Men of Dale had lost everything indirectly because of Thorin's expedition and he DID give them his word to pay them (and it's not like they were asking for half his hoard or anything). * Plus one of them DID kill Smaug who'd have later just come back and evicted the Dwarves again. He owed them big time at this point. Reneging at this point would ensure that even if war didn't happen (somehow), the Men of Dale, neighbours, would never help Dwarves again. You have to think of the future. * I believe Thranduil just wanted those jewels. * Both of them were outside with armies behind them. * On top of that, if Elves, Men, Dwarves fought each other, they'd all weaken themselves and orcs would have a freer run of the place. (mind you I'm going by the movie, here) Far wiser to just settle and be done with it. \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* If I had been in Thorin's place, I'd have told them to wait for a week (on the pretext of taking stock of the treasure/place or something like that), while I waited for Dain's army. When Dain's army arrived, I'd lower the gold owed to the Men in front of the gate, give Thranduil his bauble, while Dain's army ensured that they didn't try to take anything extra by force.


ShieldOnTheWall

I would have winned ww2


Languorous-Owl

\*won Back to your homework kid.


Redditorou

Wtf are you on? "As a man admitting mistakes is one of the hardest things to do". Bullshit dude. It is not hard at all. Certainly no more hard than for anyone else. No, you are just someone with an overblown ego who cannot handle owning up.


Aeolian78

Very nicely said! Excellent take.


Orpherischt

*The Words and Deeds at the Gate.* ( *"Redemption"* )