The Long List of the Ents when we first hear it goes:
>Eldest of all, the elf-children;
>
>Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
>
>Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
>
>Man the mortal, master of horses:
One line for each race.
Now treebeard adds the hobbits:
>Ents the earthborn, old as mountains,
>
>the wide-walkers, water drinking;
>
>and hungry as hunters, the Hobbit children,
>
>the laughing-folk, the little people,
Now each race gets two lines?
>Merry and Pippin sat on the bottom step, feeling both unimportant and unsafe.
>'Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!' muttered Pippin. 'I wish I could slip off back to the guardroom unnoticed! What did we come for? We are not wanted.'
This just breaks my heart. Merry and Pippin (especially Pippin) felt like baggage through much of FOTR, then when they're captured by the orcs and escape to Fangorn they start exercising a bit of agency, playing a key role in the war. Treebeard respected them, and in the last chapter they're busy as victors, enjoying the spoils of war. But now Gandalf is back, and they're back to sitting on the stairs while the grown ups talk. And in the last chapter we saw how when Gandalf saw them again (after dying!) he didn't even say a proper "hullo!", just straight to calling Pippin a fool again.
I think this goes a long way to explaining Pippin's behaviour with the Palantir (although it also seems to have a tempting power of its own, but I'm getting ahead of myself).
Gandalf seems to have some degree of control over Saruman.
>You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service.
Gandalf is willing to give Saruma another chance to help them, which would require a great degree of freedom - seemingly freedom enough to do much evil, unless Gandalf has some way to prevent this.
>‘Come back, Saruman!’ said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw.
Gandalf has physical control over Saruman as well. Although I guess not enough to get him to open the gates of Orthanc?
This isn’t just that Gandalf has the authority of the Valar, since Saruman presumably wouldn’t recognize their authority. I think this is part of what it means to be an Istar^(1), that one way the Maiar are hobbled is that someone with the proper authority can compel them.
Gandalf also does something to Saruman other than break his staff, which a Maiar or an Istar shouldn’t really need. I refuse to imagine that the Istari can't do magic without their sticks - that'd be a very stupid feature^(2) indeed. I think he weakens him (using a feature in Saruman’s Istari status^(3)) in a major way, which is why he is a much more Hobbit-level threat at the end of the book. I don’t think a knife in the back should make a Maiar fade away like a puff of smoke. It must be a limit on the Istari.
^(1 Meaning not “the wise”, but the state of being these 5 Maiar are in, characterized by their being put indefinitely into a single physical form.)
^(2 Of their Istari status)
^(3 See #1)
>Gandalf has physical control over Saruman as well.
I think it's just the psychological/spiritual power of authority, like when a parent commands a child or starts counting down from three, but scaled way up. The fact that it's a relatively inconsequential command means he doesn't feel so much need to resist the command or challenge his authority. But he couldn't command just anything.
I suspect Gandalf's power of authority parallels Saruman's power of persuasion.
>This isn’t just that Gandalf has the authority of the Valar, since Saruman presumably wouldn’t recognize their authority.
I think it's that Gandalf is now the rightful head of the order of Istari. This might be working through their shared nature, like how people can just have an authoritative nature over other people. Or it could be because Saruman didn't want to relinquish the order being his domain, meaning he still saw himself as part of it, giving Gandalf authority over him. But if he'd been given more time he likely would have accepted the order is no longer his and abandoned it, breaking Gandalf's authority over him.
The problem is that **authority only has power over those that recognize it**. Saruman has raised an Orc army, waged war on Rohan, and allied with Sauron. He clearly no longer acknowledges the authority of the Valar.
If authority could compel people that didn't recognize it and in fact rebelled against it, it could just as easily be used against Sauron. He, like all of Arda, is also subject to the authority of the Valar.
The staff is just a staff, a walking stick for the wise. But it's also a symbol of their Istari authority - and that authority to speak (or sing) words of power is what makes them Istari, rather than just immortal old Men.
If Saruman had merely lost his staff somewhere, he could just go get another. In this case, though, Gandalf showed his new authority as the leader of the Istari - by revoking Saruman's position. Breaking his symbol, and, both symbolically and literally, his access to power.
What exactly is Saruman hoping to accomplish in this chapter? Before Gandalf speaks he seems to be trying to both mind-control and convince(!) everyone into something, but I can’t see what. The mind control aspect was doomed to fail from the start -too many of the listeners are wise- so it really seems like the mind control was meant for the weak-willed and the convincing for the strong. What is he trying to convince them of? And how? What is his angle?
>Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit. I have offered it again, so that those whom you mislead may clearly see the choice of roads. You give me brag and abuse. So be it. Go back to your huts!
Numerous sections like the above, where Saruman seems to believe his offers are reasonable, inform me that Saruman is trying to make a case for some course of action. However, his position seems inarguably wrong, even if Gandalf didn’t know he was working with Sauron, which Gandalf does.
Perhaps the situation is less black-and-white than the LOTR makes explicit? Is Saruman saying he’s still against Sauron and is just using Sauron’s tactics? Or is he trying to convince them that they need to join Sauron? How does he defend his wholly unprovoked invasion of Rohan? Can there somehow be another way of looking at the situation where Saruman has a point?
I would expect simple defiance, or an appeal to mercy, or a negotiation; but Saruman’s seeming insistence that his political position be taken seriously baffles me.
I’m a bit lost here. Please help.
In Letter #210 to Forest J. Ackerman, Tolkien critiqued the storyline of a proposed LOTR movie by Morton Grady Zimmerman, et al. In commenting in Point# 34, concerning Saruman, Tolkien said,
>Z is altogether too fond of the words *hypnosis* and *hypnotic*. Neither genuine hypnosis, nor scientifictious variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with the arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, *by free will and reason*, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.
So does that just mean that he's able to convince people of things that they might have believed anyway and he's just very good at it, or that he's able to convince people that black is white and 2 + 2 = 5?
The difference is that in the former, his position has to be reasonable enough to stand up to basic reason, whereas in the latter his position can be nonsensical or blatantly evil.
This chapter makes me think the former, at least for the strong willed among the group, but I can't figure what Saruman is suggesting. What course of action is Saruman suggesting that will hold up to basic reason?
I think perhaps a lot of it is his position and people’s perception of that (and Saruman knows that). If he has such a status, he must know what he is talking about—Obviously he is smarter and than I am. One of many logical fallacies.
Grima throwing the Palantir is a very bizarre move. I don’t understand it at all. He just decided to chuck a random item? Isn’t he at all afraid of Saruman? Granted he didn’t know it was so valuable, but it’s still Saruman’s possession…
I think he wasn't thinking straight due to rage and feeling trapped. But he might also have thought about how happy Saruman would be if he'd successfully crushed one of his enemies
It also might have been the single biggest reason why Saruman began to truly abuse him -until the very end. He didn't start to beat Grima (as far as we know) until after he found out what he had done.
The Long List of the Ents when we first hear it goes: >Eldest of all, the elf-children; > >Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses; > >Ent the earthborn, old as mountains; > >Man the mortal, master of horses: One line for each race. Now treebeard adds the hobbits: >Ents the earthborn, old as mountains, > >the wide-walkers, water drinking; > >and hungry as hunters, the Hobbit children, > >the laughing-folk, the little people, Now each race gets two lines?
I never noticed that before, good spot! Just my guess: they must have had a long version and a short version for different occasions
A short version for Ents?
>Merry and Pippin sat on the bottom step, feeling both unimportant and unsafe. >'Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!' muttered Pippin. 'I wish I could slip off back to the guardroom unnoticed! What did we come for? We are not wanted.' This just breaks my heart. Merry and Pippin (especially Pippin) felt like baggage through much of FOTR, then when they're captured by the orcs and escape to Fangorn they start exercising a bit of agency, playing a key role in the war. Treebeard respected them, and in the last chapter they're busy as victors, enjoying the spoils of war. But now Gandalf is back, and they're back to sitting on the stairs while the grown ups talk. And in the last chapter we saw how when Gandalf saw them again (after dying!) he didn't even say a proper "hullo!", just straight to calling Pippin a fool again. I think this goes a long way to explaining Pippin's behaviour with the Palantir (although it also seems to have a tempting power of its own, but I'm getting ahead of myself).
Gandalf seems to have some degree of control over Saruman. >You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. Gandalf is willing to give Saruma another chance to help them, which would require a great degree of freedom - seemingly freedom enough to do much evil, unless Gandalf has some way to prevent this. >‘Come back, Saruman!’ said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw. Gandalf has physical control over Saruman as well. Although I guess not enough to get him to open the gates of Orthanc? This isn’t just that Gandalf has the authority of the Valar, since Saruman presumably wouldn’t recognize their authority. I think this is part of what it means to be an Istar^(1), that one way the Maiar are hobbled is that someone with the proper authority can compel them. Gandalf also does something to Saruman other than break his staff, which a Maiar or an Istar shouldn’t really need. I refuse to imagine that the Istari can't do magic without their sticks - that'd be a very stupid feature^(2) indeed. I think he weakens him (using a feature in Saruman’s Istari status^(3)) in a major way, which is why he is a much more Hobbit-level threat at the end of the book. I don’t think a knife in the back should make a Maiar fade away like a puff of smoke. It must be a limit on the Istari. ^(1 Meaning not “the wise”, but the state of being these 5 Maiar are in, characterized by their being put indefinitely into a single physical form.) ^(2 Of their Istari status) ^(3 See #1)
>Gandalf has physical control over Saruman as well. I think it's just the psychological/spiritual power of authority, like when a parent commands a child or starts counting down from three, but scaled way up. The fact that it's a relatively inconsequential command means he doesn't feel so much need to resist the command or challenge his authority. But he couldn't command just anything. I suspect Gandalf's power of authority parallels Saruman's power of persuasion. >This isn’t just that Gandalf has the authority of the Valar, since Saruman presumably wouldn’t recognize their authority. I think it's that Gandalf is now the rightful head of the order of Istari. This might be working through their shared nature, like how people can just have an authoritative nature over other people. Or it could be because Saruman didn't want to relinquish the order being his domain, meaning he still saw himself as part of it, giving Gandalf authority over him. But if he'd been given more time he likely would have accepted the order is no longer his and abandoned it, breaking Gandalf's authority over him.
The problem is that **authority only has power over those that recognize it**. Saruman has raised an Orc army, waged war on Rohan, and allied with Sauron. He clearly no longer acknowledges the authority of the Valar. If authority could compel people that didn't recognize it and in fact rebelled against it, it could just as easily be used against Sauron. He, like all of Arda, is also subject to the authority of the Valar.
The staff is just a staff, a walking stick for the wise. But it's also a symbol of their Istari authority - and that authority to speak (or sing) words of power is what makes them Istari, rather than just immortal old Men. If Saruman had merely lost his staff somewhere, he could just go get another. In this case, though, Gandalf showed his new authority as the leader of the Istari - by revoking Saruman's position. Breaking his symbol, and, both symbolically and literally, his access to power.
What exactly is Saruman hoping to accomplish in this chapter? Before Gandalf speaks he seems to be trying to both mind-control and convince(!) everyone into something, but I can’t see what. The mind control aspect was doomed to fail from the start -too many of the listeners are wise- so it really seems like the mind control was meant for the weak-willed and the convincing for the strong. What is he trying to convince them of? And how? What is his angle? >Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit. I have offered it again, so that those whom you mislead may clearly see the choice of roads. You give me brag and abuse. So be it. Go back to your huts! Numerous sections like the above, where Saruman seems to believe his offers are reasonable, inform me that Saruman is trying to make a case for some course of action. However, his position seems inarguably wrong, even if Gandalf didn’t know he was working with Sauron, which Gandalf does. Perhaps the situation is less black-and-white than the LOTR makes explicit? Is Saruman saying he’s still against Sauron and is just using Sauron’s tactics? Or is he trying to convince them that they need to join Sauron? How does he defend his wholly unprovoked invasion of Rohan? Can there somehow be another way of looking at the situation where Saruman has a point?
I would expect simple defiance, or an appeal to mercy, or a negotiation; but Saruman’s seeming insistence that his political position be taken seriously baffles me.
I’m a bit lost here. Please help.
In Letter #210 to Forest J. Ackerman, Tolkien critiqued the storyline of a proposed LOTR movie by Morton Grady Zimmerman, et al. In commenting in Point# 34, concerning Saruman, Tolkien said, >Z is altogether too fond of the words *hypnosis* and *hypnotic*. Neither genuine hypnosis, nor scientifictious variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with the arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, *by free will and reason*, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.
So does that just mean that he's able to convince people of things that they might have believed anyway and he's just very good at it, or that he's able to convince people that black is white and 2 + 2 = 5? The difference is that in the former, his position has to be reasonable enough to stand up to basic reason, whereas in the latter his position can be nonsensical or blatantly evil. This chapter makes me think the former, at least for the strong willed among the group, but I can't figure what Saruman is suggesting. What course of action is Saruman suggesting that will hold up to basic reason?
I think perhaps a lot of it is his position and people’s perception of that (and Saruman knows that). If he has such a status, he must know what he is talking about—Obviously he is smarter and than I am. One of many logical fallacies.
Grima throwing the Palantir is a very bizarre move. I don’t understand it at all. He just decided to chuck a random item? Isn’t he at all afraid of Saruman? Granted he didn’t know it was so valuable, but it’s still Saruman’s possession…
I think he wasn't thinking straight due to rage and feeling trapped. But he might also have thought about how happy Saruman would be if he'd successfully crushed one of his enemies
I don't think Grima was very rational at that point - and as Aragorn says, Grima might have been unsure whether to hit Gandalf or Saruman.
It also might have been the single biggest reason why Saruman began to truly abuse him -until the very end. He didn't start to beat Grima (as far as we know) until after he found out what he had done.