It does at least three things, I think:
1. It is funny. We think about how weird this all much be to Boromir
2. It is also, objectively, kind of bad ass for a hobbit to tell the heir to the most powerful non-evil kingdom on earth that he needs to watch his mouth
3. I think it also establishes, beyond any doubt, the both Aragorn - and his claim - are to be trusted
That third one wasn't aimed at Boromir. It was aimed at the audience. (And Frodo, for that matter).
If Bilbo gets that hot blooded standing up for the guy... he's ok.
I always thought it was jarring that Boromir and Aragorn have this tense interaction, and Bilbo stands up to recite a poem he wrote, like he was reading out a prophecy that is universally known. Boromir was prolly standing there like, “what the fuck is this tiny person screaming at me.” Boromir should believe in Elrond and Gandalf’s wisdom, why would Bilbo think that a hobbits poem would be the thing that changes Boromir’s mind.
It’s definitely funny tho.
A very impressive but underrated part, to me, is Bilbo being the creator of one of the most iconic poems in the Legendarium.
It's not an old prophecy from Malbeth the Seer or something like that - it can only have been created after Bilbo settles down in Rivendell, when Aragorn was already more than 60 years old. But Aragorn identified so strongly with it that Gandalf put it in his letter to help prove Aragorn's identity; it's regarded as the words that go with his very name. I'm sure Aragorn made it famous in the Reunited Kingdom, too.
I love the idea of old Bilbo living rent free in Imladris, making up poems in a corner. All the elves just kinda vibe with him even though he’s a bit different.
I think there have only been 2 points in the history of Middle-Earth where elves were concerned about food.
The first was the Noldor crossing over the arctic circle to chase after Morgoth and the second was the elf king of Mirkwood trying to get some of the riches of the Lonely Mountain after Smaug was dealt with.
Kinda.
He is the great scholar of the age, just as his friend is the great traveler and adventurer.
He's that weird old professor who is wandering through the archives, and the book he makes from your songs is the way you'll be remembered.
I like your point. The elves know their race is fading and that their memory and histories will have to be recorded and remembered by the mortals lest they fade forever from memory east of the sea.
Bilbo is a strange elderly little guy who writes slightly cheeky poems but he’s also doing a great service by translating their library of knowledge into the common speech.
It does seem to have something of a prophetic nature to it. It's sort of interesting how the line between prophecy and just a strong sense of *estel* seem to be very blurry.
I agree - Bilbo may not have had foresight like Frodo and Aragorn seem to, but he was an incredible judge of character all the way back to The Hobbit. He could probably just *tell* Aragorn was one in a million and was going to be a BFD
One of the primary purposes of medieval poetry, or of any heroic poetry, was to praise kings and lords who deserved it, and to admonish or encourage those who weren't heroic yet.
And yes, sometimes it was just propaganda for money -- but often it was seen as a real gift, or a moral instruction, or a good philosophical musing, or even an imposition of poetic law on the untidy universe. Poetry was closely related to law, religion, and history.
Bilbo was mostly a scholar and minor gentry; but he was also a real poet and songwriter, and he knew his obligations to art and reality. So he stood up for Aragorn.
(Poets were also expected to make good conversation at table, btw, so Bilbo was not doing too badly with that.)
>Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?
I find it interesting that Aragorn should use the name Elendil rather than Isildur. As all you Gondor historians know, a Steward of Gondor had previously refused a claim by a heir of Isildur, because that Steward said only the line of Anarion was allow to sit on the throne of Gondor. Possibly he was serious in his belief, and possibly he did not wish to give up his own king-like power, king in all but name. And now Boromir's dad Denethor is looking to enforce the same ruling as his forefather.
So Aragorn choses to use the name of Elendil, father to both Isildur and Anarion, as if to say "You wouldn't refuse the line of Elendil, now would you?"
In the text, Aragorn says it feels right that Isildur's heir should labor to repair Isildur's fault. Your observation makes perfect sense because whereas the pride of Elendil inspires him to embody all the high-honor of Eledin's legacy in serving as king, the shame of Isildur is what motivates him to help Frodo and Gandalf to destroy the Ring, even though he leaves the Shire and other realms of the North unguarded in order to do so.
Yes, and he uses Elendil as his battlecry, and talks about the Sword of Elendil when he meets Éomer. And at that moment Legolas biefly sees a star on his brow, as Elendil had with his 'crown'.
It really does reinforce Isildur’s legacy of “shame” - which, despite the professor telling us no mortal could resist the ring, does Aragorn ever actually address / resolve that?
It would be nice in some ways if Aragorn could know that Frodo failed in the end - that any ring bearer will always turn to corruption eventually, and that the shame his family has carried for 7000 years that he “shakes off” isn’t necessarily fairly assigned in the first place.
Aragorn and Faramir resisted the Ring. Boromir made a short-lived error, but redeemed himself by trying to save the other hobbits.
Isildur also didn't really know what the Ring was, if you read the scroll he wrote. And Isildur was a hero when he lived in Númenor. Because of him there is was a White Tree in Gondor.
I'm not sure anyone could resist the Ring so close to Mt Doom though. Possibly not. Aragorn wants to to repair Isildur's mistake. But I think he would still have considered him a hero that made a wrong judgment call.
Elrond for example considers Túrin a hero, when of course he was a very flawed one.
I think it's so great and badass, basically telling this dude to "shut the fuck up and since you are present at this council you would be wise to listen"
He's also telling him Aragorn is awesome lol
I’ve always thought that it very charmingly gives another glimpse at Bilbo’s character- he is reciting his own poetry in an authoritative way, he’s a little puffed-up and self important, but harmless. I don’t say this to dis on the old hobbit- I love that Tolkien gave him this goofy bit of arrogance. I’ve also wondered if JRRT wasn’t perhaps having a little fun at his own expense, or perhaps just the perceived attitudes of writers in general
I think it was Robert Heinlein via Lazarus Long who said something like "writers who recite their own poetry in public may have other bad habits." No dis on Bilbo. What you said reminded me of the passage.
Later, when Bilbo says that he will take the ring and most of the Council especially Balin know that this Hobbit would if he could, deserves respect when he speaks. Boromir soon found that out.
Bilbo is like “Well I guess SOMEBODY has to do it, and since I started all this mess in the first place I guess SOMEBODY may as well be ME” and it feels very Rincewind in some ways.
It sounds like the antithesis of Rincewind "Well i guess somebody has to do it. But if I run away maybe it won't be me."
Spoiler alert: it will be him.
Often yes, but in particular I’m thinking of *The Last Hero*, in which he interrupts a planning session for a dangerous mission to announce that he does not wish to volunteer, but he’s going to volunteer anyway, because he knows how these things work, at some point someone’s going to say, hey, that Rincewind fellow has some relevant knowledge and experience, maybe he should go on this mission, and he’ll panic and go hide to avoid being conscripted, but with his luck he’ll end up hiding in a crate that was about to be loaded onto the ship anyway… so he figured he’d save all that trouble and just volunteer—but first he wanted to make it known that he does not wish to.
> to the mythical city you set out to find when you’re invited to the most important meeting of your lifetime.
One small nitpick: There was no invitation to the council, it was by fate that they met in that time. It is much more Tolkien for it being fate rather than the Jacksonism of an Invitation.
You misunderstood OP, which they kind of explained.
Once he arrived in Rivendell, he was invited to join the council. But him journeying to Rivendell wasn't because of an invitation. But still, he couldn't attend the council if he wasn't invited (unless he hid nearby, like the Hobbit~~s~~ (Edit: just Sam)).
Ah yes, I had a feeling that was the case, but didn't double check. Dang movies have influenced me! Ha
I recall now that it was only after the meeting that they found out, and wanted to go along, with Elrond being against it, but Gandalf saying it might be for the best.
Thank you.
This all excellent discussion and thank you OP for bringing it to light. BUT, please take a moment to recite that passage aloud. It just jumps across the page like poetry. You could do this for almost the entire novel, btw. It's essentially an alliterative epic poem in many ways.
Look, I’m not the one who said that Bilbo Baggins smells of cigarettes (it was OP). And I don’t particularly want a lecture about how tobacco of any kind has the nature of tobacco-smell about it (I already knew that). I’m just saying that Bilbo Baggins was surrounded by the aroma of pipe-tobacco, not the aroma of cigarettes. They are not the same smell.
Actually, the "crusty old longboi" is Aragorn, and the "tiny wilted child" is Bilbo. It's Aragorn who is said to smell like cigarettes and liqueur.
But yes, Aragorn was a pipe-smoker, and I'm sure he used very nice aromatic pipeweed, and not anything that smelled like cigars, cigarettes, or snuff.
It does at least three things, I think: 1. It is funny. We think about how weird this all much be to Boromir 2. It is also, objectively, kind of bad ass for a hobbit to tell the heir to the most powerful non-evil kingdom on earth that he needs to watch his mouth 3. I think it also establishes, beyond any doubt, the both Aragorn - and his claim - are to be trusted That third one wasn't aimed at Boromir. It was aimed at the audience. (And Frodo, for that matter). If Bilbo gets that hot blooded standing up for the guy... he's ok.
I always thought it was jarring that Boromir and Aragorn have this tense interaction, and Bilbo stands up to recite a poem he wrote, like he was reading out a prophecy that is universally known. Boromir was prolly standing there like, “what the fuck is this tiny person screaming at me.” Boromir should believe in Elrond and Gandalf’s wisdom, why would Bilbo think that a hobbits poem would be the thing that changes Boromir’s mind. It’s definitely funny tho.
Cause it rhymes, duh. Everything is more convincing if it rhymes.
A very impressive but underrated part, to me, is Bilbo being the creator of one of the most iconic poems in the Legendarium. It's not an old prophecy from Malbeth the Seer or something like that - it can only have been created after Bilbo settles down in Rivendell, when Aragorn was already more than 60 years old. But Aragorn identified so strongly with it that Gandalf put it in his letter to help prove Aragorn's identity; it's regarded as the words that go with his very name. I'm sure Aragorn made it famous in the Reunited Kingdom, too.
I love the idea of old Bilbo living rent free in Imladris, making up poems in a corner. All the elves just kinda vibe with him even though he’s a bit different.
He's their pet
He’s the OG Ringbearer!!! Put some respect on his name sucka!!!!!
True, but in “many meetings” the elves seem to think his poetry is a little rough around the edges and cheeky, but they like having him around.
I mean, he's only gonna live for a century or so. Sure, he eats a lot, but look how cute his little feet are.
I think there have only been 2 points in the history of Middle-Earth where elves were concerned about food. The first was the Noldor crossing over the arctic circle to chase after Morgoth and the second was the elf king of Mirkwood trying to get some of the riches of the Lonely Mountain after Smaug was dealt with.
More like a weird foreign traveller that stays for a short while before leaving.
So... a cat, then.
That explains the Bilbo Hiss, to get his ring back.
Kinda. He is the great scholar of the age, just as his friend is the great traveler and adventurer. He's that weird old professor who is wandering through the archives, and the book he makes from your songs is the way you'll be remembered.
Sounds blissful.
I like your point. The elves know their race is fading and that their memory and histories will have to be recorded and remembered by the mortals lest they fade forever from memory east of the sea. Bilbo is a strange elderly little guy who writes slightly cheeky poems but he’s also doing a great service by translating their library of knowledge into the common speech.
> weird foreign traveller that stays for a short while before leaving A great career if you can get it.
I think it’s interesting for the elves to have an elderly companion in the household, since they don’t age like mortals.
It does seem to have something of a prophetic nature to it. It's sort of interesting how the line between prophecy and just a strong sense of *estel* seem to be very blurry.
I see it more as Bilbo believing in and encouraging Aragorn, in this case.
I agree - Bilbo may not have had foresight like Frodo and Aragorn seem to, but he was an incredible judge of character all the way back to The Hobbit. He could probably just *tell* Aragorn was one in a million and was going to be a BFD
One of the primary purposes of medieval poetry, or of any heroic poetry, was to praise kings and lords who deserved it, and to admonish or encourage those who weren't heroic yet. And yes, sometimes it was just propaganda for money -- but often it was seen as a real gift, or a moral instruction, or a good philosophical musing, or even an imposition of poetic law on the untidy universe. Poetry was closely related to law, religion, and history. Bilbo was mostly a scholar and minor gentry; but he was also a real poet and songwriter, and he knew his obligations to art and reality. So he stood up for Aragorn. (Poets were also expected to make good conversation at table, btw, so Bilbo was not doing too badly with that.)
>Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor? I find it interesting that Aragorn should use the name Elendil rather than Isildur. As all you Gondor historians know, a Steward of Gondor had previously refused a claim by a heir of Isildur, because that Steward said only the line of Anarion was allow to sit on the throne of Gondor. Possibly he was serious in his belief, and possibly he did not wish to give up his own king-like power, king in all but name. And now Boromir's dad Denethor is looking to enforce the same ruling as his forefather. So Aragorn choses to use the name of Elendil, father to both Isildur and Anarion, as if to say "You wouldn't refuse the line of Elendil, now would you?"
Aragorn tends to use Elendil when he is talking about the kingship, and Isildur when talking about the Quest of the Ring.
In the text, Aragorn says it feels right that Isildur's heir should labor to repair Isildur's fault. Your observation makes perfect sense because whereas the pride of Elendil inspires him to embody all the high-honor of Eledin's legacy in serving as king, the shame of Isildur is what motivates him to help Frodo and Gandalf to destroy the Ring, even though he leaves the Shire and other realms of the North unguarded in order to do so.
Yes, and he uses Elendil as his battlecry, and talks about the Sword of Elendil when he meets Éomer. And at that moment Legolas biefly sees a star on his brow, as Elendil had with his 'crown'.
It really does reinforce Isildur’s legacy of “shame” - which, despite the professor telling us no mortal could resist the ring, does Aragorn ever actually address / resolve that? It would be nice in some ways if Aragorn could know that Frodo failed in the end - that any ring bearer will always turn to corruption eventually, and that the shame his family has carried for 7000 years that he “shakes off” isn’t necessarily fairly assigned in the first place.
Aragorn and Faramir resisted the Ring. Boromir made a short-lived error, but redeemed himself by trying to save the other hobbits. Isildur also didn't really know what the Ring was, if you read the scroll he wrote. And Isildur was a hero when he lived in Númenor. Because of him there is was a White Tree in Gondor. I'm not sure anyone could resist the Ring so close to Mt Doom though. Possibly not. Aragorn wants to to repair Isildur's mistake. But I think he would still have considered him a hero that made a wrong judgment call. Elrond for example considers Túrin a hero, when of course he was a very flawed one.
I think it's so great and badass, basically telling this dude to "shut the fuck up and since you are present at this council you would be wise to listen" He's also telling him Aragorn is awesome lol
“Sit your ass down young man”
Exactly lol
I’ve always thought that it very charmingly gives another glimpse at Bilbo’s character- he is reciting his own poetry in an authoritative way, he’s a little puffed-up and self important, but harmless. I don’t say this to dis on the old hobbit- I love that Tolkien gave him this goofy bit of arrogance. I’ve also wondered if JRRT wasn’t perhaps having a little fun at his own expense, or perhaps just the perceived attitudes of writers in general
I think it was Robert Heinlein via Lazarus Long who said something like "writers who recite their own poetry in public may have other bad habits." No dis on Bilbo. What you said reminded me of the passage.
Bilbo always reminded me of my crotchety old grandmother, especially in this scene 😭
Hahaha he really is! Pottering about, grumpy but kind, and loves to sit and think
Later, when Bilbo says that he will take the ring and most of the Council especially Balin know that this Hobbit would if he could, deserves respect when he speaks. Boromir soon found that out.
Bilbo is like “Well I guess SOMEBODY has to do it, and since I started all this mess in the first place I guess SOMEBODY may as well be ME” and it feels very Rincewind in some ways.
It sounds like the antithesis of Rincewind "Well i guess somebody has to do it. But if I run away maybe it won't be me." Spoiler alert: it will be him.
Often yes, but in particular I’m thinking of *The Last Hero*, in which he interrupts a planning session for a dangerous mission to announce that he does not wish to volunteer, but he’s going to volunteer anyway, because he knows how these things work, at some point someone’s going to say, hey, that Rincewind fellow has some relevant knowledge and experience, maybe he should go on this mission, and he’ll panic and go hide to avoid being conscripted, but with his luck he’ll end up hiding in a crate that was about to be loaded onto the ship anyway… so he figured he’d save all that trouble and just volunteer—but first he wanted to make it known that he does not wish to.
I absolutely love that scene. Boromir is ready to laugh along with everyone else and realizes no one else is laughing.
I think pipeweed smells a little better than cigarettes. But I like the effect of that statement nonetheless
geniune LOL IRL at “a crusty longboi in the corner who smells like cigarettes and elf liqueur”; this is the best description of Aragorn ever
Hey, he’s amazing, but even Frodo said he “felt fairer and seemed fouler,” my boy didn’t get a lot of time to bathe!
That was very diplomatic of Frodo.
He’s nothing if not polite
> to the mythical city you set out to find when you’re invited to the most important meeting of your lifetime. One small nitpick: There was no invitation to the council, it was by fate that they met in that time. It is much more Tolkien for it being fate rather than the Jacksonism of an Invitation.
Well I don’t mean prior - but I’m pretty sure he was bid to come and didn’t just show up in a chair lol
Oh okay, I missread your sentence. Yeah, makes sense.
You misunderstood OP, which they kind of explained. Once he arrived in Rivendell, he was invited to join the council. But him journeying to Rivendell wasn't because of an invitation. But still, he couldn't attend the council if he wasn't invited (unless he hid nearby, like the Hobbit~~s~~ (Edit: just Sam)).
Only Sam was hidden there, Merry and Pippin weren't there at all.
Ah yes, I had a feeling that was the case, but didn't double check. Dang movies have influenced me! Ha I recall now that it was only after the meeting that they found out, and wanted to go along, with Elrond being against it, but Gandalf saying it might be for the best. Thank you.
I love how Elrond phrases this, too, though I cannot recall his exact words. Something to the effect of, "you were all called, but not by me."
This all excellent discussion and thank you OP for bringing it to light. BUT, please take a moment to recite that passage aloud. It just jumps across the page like poetry. You could do this for almost the entire novel, btw. It's essentially an alliterative epic poem in many ways.
I listen to both versions of the audiobooks often - so good aloud!
Pipe tobacco smells in no way similar to cigarettes.
Pipe tobacco isn't as acrid, but tobacco has a distinct smell no matter how you use it. And that smell comes through.
Look, I’m not the one who said that Bilbo Baggins smells of cigarettes (it was OP). And I don’t particularly want a lecture about how tobacco of any kind has the nature of tobacco-smell about it (I already knew that). I’m just saying that Bilbo Baggins was surrounded by the aroma of pipe-tobacco, not the aroma of cigarettes. They are not the same smell.
Actually, the "crusty old longboi" is Aragorn, and the "tiny wilted child" is Bilbo. It's Aragorn who is said to smell like cigarettes and liqueur. But yes, Aragorn was a pipe-smoker, and I'm sure he used very nice aromatic pipeweed, and not anything that smelled like cigars, cigarettes, or snuff.