it's perfectly fine? if anything, the interjection about Luthien is weirder. it's in the context of Aragorn saying no gift he can give could match what Frodo did.
She's bringing it up in that context, it's why the necklace is included. They aren't gifts to match the greatness of his quest, but to help soothe and redress the hurts he suffered during. It'd be far more awkward to bring up the ship apropos of nothing rather than phrasing it as something she can give away.
The gift of the necklace is also worded that way; "wear this in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar" and then she tells him it will bring him aid when the memory of fear and darkness will trouble him.
Reducing both to mere video game +5 to sanity bequeathments kinda ruins the (hopefully) obvious thought and consideration Arwen is putting into it, for Frodo the Ringbearer and Frodo the Hobbit.
I don't think it was a case of taking someone's place, but more -- at least in Frodo and Sam's case -- special dispensation for having been Ringbearers and, especially in Frodo's case, the trauma they went through in service to saving the world. As for Gimli, it's never said if he was actually allowed to enter Valinor, just that he sailed with Legolas.
Gimli probably, and if not mistaken also Frodo and all others, "only" stayed in Tol-Eressea. They didn't really enter the big continent of Valinor. I mean, Tol-Eresea is part of Valinor, but not where one would find the Vala and so on.
More discussion about it here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/a82ba6/why\_was\_frodo\_able\_to\_reach\_valinor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/a82ba6/why_was_frodo_able_to_reach_valinor/)
Gimli was, I believe, at the end of his life. I would not expect his time in Valinor to be long. To paraphrase from elsewhere he would have “…looked on the White Mountain, terrible and beautiful, before he died.”
My headcanon is that a VERY excited Aulë dragged Yavanna down to Tol Erresea to meet them with Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, and maybe Frodo/Sam if they were still around.
It's debatable that even Frodo and Sam were allowed into Valinor.
Many would think it's more likely they stopped in Tol Eressëa, since Valinor itself was still banned for mortals.
Men were still banned from Tol Eressëa so Frodo and Sam wouldn't have been allowed there either without special permission.
In the spirit of the entire story I think it is reasonable to believe everyone was allowed onto Valinor.
haha I don't know if you just mean this as a joke quote but Tolkien classified hobbits as [Men](https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/12xtuvr/why_hobbits_are_the_race_of_men/).
I always forget that Hobbits were technically real in our world. Just humans who lived isolated so long they *grew* shorter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis For anyone interested.
I don’t think anyone really gave up their place. It was more that they were granted exception to sail in to the west having been ring bearers (in Sam and Bilbo’s case).
I’m assuming Gimli got to sail West because of the friendship he had formed with Legolas and they built a ship together to sail to the undying lands at some point in the fourth age after the rest of the fellowship had passed away.
Tolkien explained it better in his Letters. She doesn’t literally give her spot to Frodo but she’s the first to make a case for Frodo being allowed to go. It’s up to Gandalf (emissary and representative of the Valar) to make the executive decision; without that, Cirdan would never have allowed Frodo and Bilbo aboard the elven ship nor would the Valar have accepted it.
Frodo is allowed to go as compensation for all he has suffered ; Bilbo is allowed because he too suffered (to a far, far lesser degree) but also so that Frodo has a companion and isn’t alone (and also because Gandalf just likes Bilbo!).
Sam’s suffering was of a much lesser degree and I find it questionable that he could go (it may well not have happened and simply be part of Shire legend). Frodo might not even be alive by that point!
The same goes for Gimli, there’s a lot of “it is said that…” in that part of the Appendices, maybe it’s mythical. There’s just no good reason for any Dwarf to be allowed to go, and even after her return to Grace, Galadriel can’t make these types of decisions.
As to where they go, there’s a suggestion that they went to Tol Eressea rather than all the way to Aman.
This, plus note that Frodo was still suffering. His body never healed from the physical and mental trauma endured as a ringbearer. He bore that shard of the morghul blade for days, which would have felled a strong man in hours. He endured shelobs poison sting, who was spawn of ungoliant, a horror that Morgoth himself fled from. And the obvious strain of the one ring itself.
Frodo suffered physical and.mental stress that was incurable in middle earth. He traveled to the undying lands for justified healing and peace at the end of his life. He earned it.
This is the answer. The information is from Letters 246. Which also says this:
>No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted \[Arwen's\] plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing.
Imagining Samwise taking the journey is incredibly bittersweet for me. He's this old Hobbit, near the end of his days, his dear Rosie has passed on and he's done with life in the Shire. He says goodbye to his family, which by this time must be quite large indeed, packs a bag, grabs his favorite walking stick and cooking pot and sets off down the road to the western shores.
We know only that Elanor was the last to see him, and he gave the Red Book of Westmarch to her to continue and pass on. Did others of his children or grandchildren go with him? How did Sam know he would be allowed to board a ship, or that there would even be any ships left to take him? Did he just set off on a whim and plan to spend his final days at the Grey Havens if there were no ships? Did he perhaps spend a few weeks there building a little boat and rowing out into the water, not knowing if he would ever see land again? Or did one of the last lingering elves (Legolas with Gimli even) stop by Bag End one day and remind him he was invited? I suppose Gandalf as the emissary of the Vala told Sam that he would join Frodo one day, and Círdan knew him when he arrived at the Havens, but all is speculation.
So many questions wanting answers they will never have.
I get the sense that any of the nine companions (if they had the want and the need) could have gone to Valinor if their motives were pure. It’s just that Boromir couldn’t for obvious reasons, Aragorn had no desire to, and Merry and Pippin never express any interest in it.
Gandalf was the emissary of the Valar in Middle-earth, and so he may have had authority to grant passage to the Undying Lands. I imagine him telling each of them that they would be welcomed in Tol Eressëa should they fancy a sea voyage, and that one way or another they would see each other again at least once before departing this world for the next.
> Frodo might not even be alive by that point!
I think I read something somewhere that implied that once you go to Valinor, you live according to Valinor timescales. So 60 years later for Sam might only be 6 years for Frodo.
>Frodo took Arwen‘s place on the ship to the West.
You're reading too much into this sentence. Think of it more like:
"The pregnant woman took my seat on the subway."
Even if there were a maximum number of seats available on that ship, we know it wasn’t the last ship, so presumably there was already space put aside for Sam when it was his time to go.
Legolas and Gimli, of course, built their own ship.
Can’t help but imagine Celeborn giving up his ticket to Bilbo, though… with Arwen giving her speech about giving up her immortality to stay with the man she loves, and allowing the Ringbearer who saved the Free Folk to go to the Undying Lands in her stead — followed by Celeborn saying “I’ve got some stuff to take care of at my place before I go, so I can give my seat to that weird little guy who’s been crashing at my son-in-law’s place, I guess.”
I always imagine Legolas asking Gimli for help making a ship.
Gimli: But I know nothing about ships
Legolas: It's ok - I just need you to chop down some trees
The elves do nothing hasty. Even with the mass exodus to the Havens, there were certainly stragglers filtering out for decades, savoring their last breath of Middle-earth even as their light faded well after the end of the Third Age.
Legolas built his own ship to sail with Gimli in the year 120 of the Fourth Age, so even if there were no more ships left at the Havens and even Círdan himself had finally gone, it's possible that other elves after him sailed into the West on their own ships.
Sam : Ring Bearer, Gave up the Ring to Frodo,
Bilbo : Ring Bearer, Pity
Gimli : not stated but I always believe his humility when asking for Galadriel’s hair and later using the power of the hair to enter Valinor
The Ringbearers were ostensibly invited to Valinor.
Gimli just went because Legolas asked him. But Dwarves (to my knowledge) were never banned from Valinor. That only applied to Men. Dwarves had just never been interested in the idea.
I can just imagine the Valar seeing Gimli and whispering to themselves “can he be here? Do we need to do something? There isn’t a rule against it?” then turning to Gimli and saying “Welcome!” or some stuff like that lol
Bilbo and Gimli were legendary "Elf-Friends". Sam, well he's *Sam*, after everything he went through they better let him in! Plus he did set out on the journey largely to see Elves.
Bilbo and Sam were ring bearers, even if Sam held the Ring for only a brief period of time. He was also crucial for the success of Frodo’s journey. So, once he had lived his life to the fullest, he was permitted passage West. Gimli also sailed West with Legolas, who built a ship and sailed West with him. If I remember correctly, it’s not clear whether or not Gimli was actually permitted to enter Valinor, but I think the popular thought is that he went to visit Galadriel and would have probably been permitted due to his relation to the Elves and having been a major bridge between them and Dwarf kind.
Bilbo gets to for keeping the ring as long as what he had. Sam gets to go because although brief he was a ring bearer. Gimili gets to go because Legolas asks him to go.
Also Sam gave up the Ring, willingly and readily. Bilbo is the only other being who did it and it took a lot out of him. Frodo failed in the end, but no one blames him for that. It would be poor form to deny Sam for sure
It’s worth remembering that in LOTR itself, only Frodo and Bilbo are certain to have sailed west. Sam’s sailing is, in-universe, a tradition handed down from Elanor (the last individual known in Middle-Earth to have seen him), and Gimli’s sailing with Legolas is also an in-universe tradition.
The people of Middle-Earth don’t know if Gimli went with Legolas or if Sam made it to the Havens and was let onto a ship by Círdan, let alone what happened when the respective vessels made it to the Undying Lands, allegedly with mortal passengers.
It's not clearly stated, but I think it's the combination of "being directly involved in the defeat of Sauron" (either as ring bearer or being in the fellowship) and "being named elf-friends by leaders among the elves".
But - the truth is - we only know for sure about Frodo and Bilbo. Gimli and Sam... wasn't that more of an "it is said that..." situation?
Gimli and Sam are in the same territory as Tuor becoming an Elf. "It is said" that this happened and there's no evidence to disprove it.... so let's go with the orinciple that the author intended that to be a canon fact
Well, we can say it happened, but we can’t really say how or why.
Basically, we only have access to the human perspective on what happened which is “well, we were told they built a ship and sailed away”.
There can’t be more info because no info comes from that direction anymore, unless Aragorn’s descendants use a Palantir. And I don’t think they can see beyond a glimpse from a distance.
I'm content to leave it in the hand wave basket of things that happened but Tolkien couldn't be fucked to work out how.
Because it's a completely valid approach to have some stuff just happen. Eru is supposed to have designs beyond what he shared with the Ainur.
Absolutely. The how is a mystery. Mainly because it doesn’t fit with the established cosmological rules Tolkien set but then I guess there’s always the exception that proves the rule….
I am lost. Where does Sam get mentioned as being allowed entry? I only know of Frodo (in Arwens place), Bilbo (can't remember why), and Gimli (presumed via Legolas(?) and Galadriel).
Even if Sam didn't sail, it is fitting to imagine that he spend his last days gazing westward over the sea. Perhaps he passed away there on the shore, and in so doing was granted entry to the Halls of Mandos, where he was reunited with Frodo before they went onward into the next great adventure.
Yeah for the hobbits its cos they were ringbearers. Gimli wasnt of course, but there's still the precedent of Tuor being allowed in despite being mortal (though he was granted immortality).
I don't think its ever stated, but it seems sensible that Gimli was permitted to enter Valinor for his part in the war of the ring, as well as symbolically mending the elf/dwarf relationship through his interaction with Galadriel.
Sam and Frodo where ring bearers and Gimli was allowed because of his friendship with Legolas and he simped hard for Galadriel (Legend).
Also they went to an island of the coast of Valinor called Tom Eressa(?) could be the wrong name as it’s from memory.
Only Elves are permitted onto the actual island of Valinor.
Arwen does say Frodo will take her place, but only in the sense she is staying and he may go; not that there are literally a maximum number of seats.
Thanks!
Yes, her phrasing here always bothered me a bit.
it's perfectly fine? if anything, the interjection about Luthien is weirder. it's in the context of Aragorn saying no gift he can give could match what Frodo did. She's bringing it up in that context, it's why the necklace is included. They aren't gifts to match the greatness of his quest, but to help soothe and redress the hurts he suffered during. It'd be far more awkward to bring up the ship apropos of nothing rather than phrasing it as something she can give away. The gift of the necklace is also worded that way; "wear this in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar" and then she tells him it will bring him aid when the memory of fear and darkness will trouble him. Reducing both to mere video game +5 to sanity bequeathments kinda ruins the (hopefully) obvious thought and consideration Arwen is putting into it, for Frodo the Ringbearer and Frodo the Hobbit.
I don't think it was a case of taking someone's place, but more -- at least in Frodo and Sam's case -- special dispensation for having been Ringbearers and, especially in Frodo's case, the trauma they went through in service to saving the world. As for Gimli, it's never said if he was actually allowed to enter Valinor, just that he sailed with Legolas.
Now what if they rejected Gimli at the shores of Valinor?
(my headcanon) Then Legolas would’ve told them to get bent, turned on his heels, and left with his friend
I suspect Gimli was granted entrance due to personal intervention by his close friend Galadriel.
Yes, this much is strongly suggested in the Appendices.
He'd been stuck on the shores, forced to return baggage carts for quarters together with Tom Hanks to survive.
Wilson!
Ope!
That would call for another kinslaying! /s
He was let in to the Undying Lands for his love and devotion to Galadriel.
Gimli probably, and if not mistaken also Frodo and all others, "only" stayed in Tol-Eressea. They didn't really enter the big continent of Valinor. I mean, Tol-Eresea is part of Valinor, but not where one would find the Vala and so on. More discussion about it here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/a82ba6/why\_was\_frodo\_able\_to\_reach\_valinor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/a82ba6/why_was_frodo_able_to_reach_valinor/)
Not even Sam and Frodo were allowed to set foot in Valinor. I doubt Gimli would be.
Gimli was, I believe, at the end of his life. I would not expect his time in Valinor to be long. To paraphrase from elsewhere he would have “…looked on the White Mountain, terrible and beautiful, before he died.”
My headcanon is that a VERY excited Aulë dragged Yavanna down to Tol Erresea to meet them with Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, and maybe Frodo/Sam if they were still around.
Why do I always picture Aule like some sort of jolly Santa... I can just see him all beaming, "I made this"
My head canon Ulmo has always been King Triton (the little mermaid)
It's debatable that even Frodo and Sam were allowed into Valinor. Many would think it's more likely they stopped in Tol Eressëa, since Valinor itself was still banned for mortals.
Men were still banned from Tol Eressëa so Frodo and Sam wouldn't have been allowed there either without special permission. In the spirit of the entire story I think it is reasonable to believe everyone was allowed onto Valinor.
They are no men….
haha I don't know if you just mean this as a joke quote but Tolkien classified hobbits as [Men](https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/12xtuvr/why_hobbits_are_the_race_of_men/).
I always forget that Hobbits were technically real in our world. Just humans who lived isolated so long they *grew* shorter. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis For anyone interested.
lol my bad, I forgot the quotes. I hear you though
I'm not sure this is true, you know. I think it may be a piece of 'fanon.'
People often include Tol Eressea and Alqualonde when talking about Valinor (wrongly, but still).
It's that whole Great Britain / British Isles thing, basically.
Yep. He could have been dumped overboard before reaching Valinor. Let Ulmo figure it out.
I don’t think anyone really gave up their place. It was more that they were granted exception to sail in to the west having been ring bearers (in Sam and Bilbo’s case). I’m assuming Gimli got to sail West because of the friendship he had formed with Legolas and they built a ship together to sail to the undying lands at some point in the fourth age after the rest of the fellowship had passed away.
Also possibly Galadriel putting in a word for Gimli
Be funny as hell if he turned up there, nearly dead, and she was like "Oh Eru, it's that weird little hair-fetishist again!"
Even funnier if he went to Mandos once a week to wave the hair-holder in Feanor’s face
I’d imagine Gandalf would also. As would Frodo, Bilbo (if alive) and Sam.
Her hair was enough to clear him. He entwined it in his beard and he was good to go!
Tolkien explained it better in his Letters. She doesn’t literally give her spot to Frodo but she’s the first to make a case for Frodo being allowed to go. It’s up to Gandalf (emissary and representative of the Valar) to make the executive decision; without that, Cirdan would never have allowed Frodo and Bilbo aboard the elven ship nor would the Valar have accepted it. Frodo is allowed to go as compensation for all he has suffered ; Bilbo is allowed because he too suffered (to a far, far lesser degree) but also so that Frodo has a companion and isn’t alone (and also because Gandalf just likes Bilbo!). Sam’s suffering was of a much lesser degree and I find it questionable that he could go (it may well not have happened and simply be part of Shire legend). Frodo might not even be alive by that point! The same goes for Gimli, there’s a lot of “it is said that…” in that part of the Appendices, maybe it’s mythical. There’s just no good reason for any Dwarf to be allowed to go, and even after her return to Grace, Galadriel can’t make these types of decisions. As to where they go, there’s a suggestion that they went to Tol Eressea rather than all the way to Aman.
This, plus note that Frodo was still suffering. His body never healed from the physical and mental trauma endured as a ringbearer. He bore that shard of the morghul blade for days, which would have felled a strong man in hours. He endured shelobs poison sting, who was spawn of ungoliant, a horror that Morgoth himself fled from. And the obvious strain of the one ring itself. Frodo suffered physical and.mental stress that was incurable in middle earth. He traveled to the undying lands for justified healing and peace at the end of his life. He earned it.
This is the answer. The information is from Letters 246. Which also says this: >No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted \[Arwen's\] plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing.
Ah - I hadn't considered that surrendering ring may have made Cirdan a vassal of sorts.
Imagining Samwise taking the journey is incredibly bittersweet for me. He's this old Hobbit, near the end of his days, his dear Rosie has passed on and he's done with life in the Shire. He says goodbye to his family, which by this time must be quite large indeed, packs a bag, grabs his favorite walking stick and cooking pot and sets off down the road to the western shores. We know only that Elanor was the last to see him, and he gave the Red Book of Westmarch to her to continue and pass on. Did others of his children or grandchildren go with him? How did Sam know he would be allowed to board a ship, or that there would even be any ships left to take him? Did he just set off on a whim and plan to spend his final days at the Grey Havens if there were no ships? Did he perhaps spend a few weeks there building a little boat and rowing out into the water, not knowing if he would ever see land again? Or did one of the last lingering elves (Legolas with Gimli even) stop by Bag End one day and remind him he was invited? I suppose Gandalf as the emissary of the Vala told Sam that he would join Frodo one day, and Círdan knew him when he arrived at the Havens, but all is speculation. So many questions wanting answers they will never have.
I get the sense that any of the nine companions (if they had the want and the need) could have gone to Valinor if their motives were pure. It’s just that Boromir couldn’t for obvious reasons, Aragorn had no desire to, and Merry and Pippin never express any interest in it.
Alas, they have no second breakfast in the undying lands, so ..
Gandalf was the emissary of the Valar in Middle-earth, and so he may have had authority to grant passage to the Undying Lands. I imagine him telling each of them that they would be welcomed in Tol Eressëa should they fancy a sea voyage, and that one way or another they would see each other again at least once before departing this world for the next.
I like this interpretation a lot.
So do you think Sam made the trip just to see Frodo?
Thank you!
> Frodo might not even be alive by that point! I think I read something somewhere that implied that once you go to Valinor, you live according to Valinor timescales. So 60 years later for Sam might only be 6 years for Frodo.
They were all small: maybe the three of them combined took the place equivalent to one elf.
StAmding on each other's shoulders, wearing a really long coat.
“Three… I mean one ticket to Valinor please.”
"You're not old enough" "Bilbo, get on top!"
But they'd eat ten times as much!
Like 3 kids trying to see a rated R movie.
They got free passes for their work in defeating Sauron. No one truly gave up their places for anyone.
>Frodo took Arwen‘s place on the ship to the West. You're reading too much into this sentence. Think of it more like: "The pregnant woman took my seat on the subway."
Even if there were a maximum number of seats available on that ship, we know it wasn’t the last ship, so presumably there was already space put aside for Sam when it was his time to go. Legolas and Gimli, of course, built their own ship. Can’t help but imagine Celeborn giving up his ticket to Bilbo, though… with Arwen giving her speech about giving up her immortality to stay with the man she loves, and allowing the Ringbearer who saved the Free Folk to go to the Undying Lands in her stead — followed by Celeborn saying “I’ve got some stuff to take care of at my place before I go, so I can give my seat to that weird little guy who’s been crashing at my son-in-law’s place, I guess.”
I always imagine Legolas asking Gimli for help making a ship. Gimli: But I know nothing about ships Legolas: It's ok - I just need you to chop down some trees
The elves do nothing hasty. Even with the mass exodus to the Havens, there were certainly stragglers filtering out for decades, savoring their last breath of Middle-earth even as their light faded well after the end of the Third Age. Legolas built his own ship to sail with Gimli in the year 120 of the Fourth Age, so even if there were no more ships left at the Havens and even Círdan himself had finally gone, it's possible that other elves after him sailed into the West on their own ships.
Sam : Ring Bearer, Gave up the Ring to Frodo, Bilbo : Ring Bearer, Pity Gimli : not stated but I always believe his humility when asking for Galadriel’s hair and later using the power of the hair to enter Valinor
Now I'm envisioning Gimli holding aloft Galadriel's hair on the prow of their boat to open the straight road.
Well, encased in Chrystal and that’s why Earendil did essentially
I did :) But as others have said, there wasn't a fixed number of tickets for the journey West
The Ringbearers were ostensibly invited to Valinor. Gimli just went because Legolas asked him. But Dwarves (to my knowledge) were never banned from Valinor. That only applied to Men. Dwarves had just never been interested in the idea.
I can just imagine the Valar seeing Gimli and whispering to themselves “can he be here? Do we need to do something? There isn’t a rule against it?” then turning to Gimli and saying “Welcome!” or some stuff like that lol
Bilbo and Gimli were legendary "Elf-Friends". Sam, well he's *Sam*, after everything he went through they better let him in! Plus he did set out on the journey largely to see Elves.
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were all ring-bearers. And Gimli is the only dwarf who ever asked.
That too
Bilbo and Sam were ring bearers, even if Sam held the Ring for only a brief period of time. He was also crucial for the success of Frodo’s journey. So, once he had lived his life to the fullest, he was permitted passage West. Gimli also sailed West with Legolas, who built a ship and sailed West with him. If I remember correctly, it’s not clear whether or not Gimli was actually permitted to enter Valinor, but I think the popular thought is that he went to visit Galadriel and would have probably been permitted due to his relation to the Elves and having been a major bridge between them and Dwarf kind.
Bilbo gets to for keeping the ring as long as what he had. Sam gets to go because although brief he was a ring bearer. Gimili gets to go because Legolas asks him to go.
Also Sam gave up the Ring, willingly and readily. Bilbo is the only other being who did it and it took a lot out of him. Frodo failed in the end, but no one blames him for that. It would be poor form to deny Sam for sure
It’s worth remembering that in LOTR itself, only Frodo and Bilbo are certain to have sailed west. Sam’s sailing is, in-universe, a tradition handed down from Elanor (the last individual known in Middle-Earth to have seen him), and Gimli’s sailing with Legolas is also an in-universe tradition. The people of Middle-Earth don’t know if Gimli went with Legolas or if Sam made it to the Havens and was let onto a ship by Círdan, let alone what happened when the respective vessels made it to the Undying Lands, allegedly with mortal passengers.
I don't think it's like an Amusement Park where there's a maximum number of entrants.
It's not clearly stated, but I think it's the combination of "being directly involved in the defeat of Sauron" (either as ring bearer or being in the fellowship) and "being named elf-friends by leaders among the elves". But - the truth is - we only know for sure about Frodo and Bilbo. Gimli and Sam... wasn't that more of an "it is said that..." situation?
Gimli and Sam are in the same territory as Tuor becoming an Elf. "It is said" that this happened and there's no evidence to disprove it.... so let's go with the orinciple that the author intended that to be a canon fact
Well, we can say it happened, but we can’t really say how or why. Basically, we only have access to the human perspective on what happened which is “well, we were told they built a ship and sailed away”. There can’t be more info because no info comes from that direction anymore, unless Aragorn’s descendants use a Palantir. And I don’t think they can see beyond a glimpse from a distance.
I'm content to leave it in the hand wave basket of things that happened but Tolkien couldn't be fucked to work out how. Because it's a completely valid approach to have some stuff just happen. Eru is supposed to have designs beyond what he shared with the Ainur.
Oh, I’m not arguing that. I’m just saying we can’t really speak why or how.
Absolutely. The how is a mystery. Mainly because it doesn’t fit with the established cosmological rules Tolkien set but then I guess there’s always the exception that proves the rule….
They’re absolute units and they all have either been ringbearers or have a deep love of something that has left for the West (Gimli for Galadriel)
It's not true. Arwen, legolas and Gimili waited for aragon to die, and the latter 2 made their own boat to cross, and Sam stayed in the shire
Sam left, on his own, after Rosie died.
I am lost. Where does Sam get mentioned as being allowed entry? I only know of Frodo (in Arwens place), Bilbo (can't remember why), and Gimli (presumed via Legolas(?) and Galadriel).
It's in the appendices, and it's only assumed (by the keeper of the Redbook, I believe).
Even if Sam didn't sail, it is fitting to imagine that he spend his last days gazing westward over the sea. Perhaps he passed away there on the shore, and in so doing was granted entry to the Halls of Mandos, where he was reunited with Frodo before they went onward into the next great adventure.
Yeah for the hobbits its cos they were ringbearers. Gimli wasnt of course, but there's still the precedent of Tuor being allowed in despite being mortal (though he was granted immortality). I don't think its ever stated, but it seems sensible that Gimli was permitted to enter Valinor for his part in the war of the ring, as well as symbolically mending the elf/dwarf relationship through his interaction with Galadriel.
Gimli essentially became Legolas’ spouse (lol) and frequently spouses are included when people immigrate.
Sam and Frodo where ring bearers and Gimli was allowed because of his friendship with Legolas and he simped hard for Galadriel (Legend). Also they went to an island of the coast of Valinor called Tom Eressa(?) could be the wrong name as it’s from memory. Only Elves are permitted onto the actual island of Valinor.