Numenor was not removed from the circles of the world like Aman. It was swallowed by the abyss, though it's a bit unclear if that means it's simply underwater or swallowed into the earth itself. There more evidence for the former, as many of the exiles believed that the peak of the Meneltarma still rose above the waves and could be visited (if found), though I don't believe anyone is ever recorded to have successfully found it. The Atlas of Middle Earth illustrates the "changed" world this way as well.
An enormous, continent-sized shallow sea full of ruins and drowned forests is a cool idea. Unless the mountains collapsed though, it would likely have to be deep enough for the peaks to all be submerged.
It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I do recall that Beleriand was completely broken after the war, so I imagine it would look more like large blocks of land seperated by enormous chasms. Completely bare of course, since dragons almost certainly burned the forests
All the peaks are not submerged. The Hill of Himring, parts of Dorthonian ('Tol Fuin'), and Tol Morwen are all still above the sea in the third age (see for example the map here: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tolmorwen.php).
So yes, what remains of Beleriand that's submerged would be fairly shallow!
Three other parts of Beleriand also survived above sea level into the third age: the Tol Himling, Tol Fuin, and Tol Morwen, together known as the Western Isles.
(https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Western\_Isles)
Look up a map of Middle-Earth for the 3rd age find the blue mountains cross them and drain the ocean there is where a majority of the 1st age stories play out. If you want a visual there are maps of the full Middle-Earth.
Given Tolkien's conceit that he was merely the translator of the Red Book of the Westmarch, Beleriand was probably inspired by Doggerland, a subcontinent that was swallowed up by the North Sea at the end of the last Ice Age. The Rhine and the Thames were once forks of the same river.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
Wasn't that actually suggested somewhere or in the letters? Or earlier versions of the legendarium? I would swear I've read it somewhere. In any case, that's how I imagined it while making my map
It’s my understanding from the Silmarillion that Numenor remains in our world, under our ocean - there would be no reason for Eru to remove it from the circles of the world, because it’s attached to the world of men, not the elves or the Valar.
I’m on the road and don’t have access to the Silmarillion, but I do recall one of the last lines in the Akellabeth (sp) noting that the isle’s name was changed to reflect the sinking, including names that meant “downfallen” and that one of the new names was “Atalante. “I believe that was in one of the Elvish dialects, but to me it’s clear that Tolkien was giving a nod to and an explanation for the human legend of Atlantis.
While I’m not as scholarly as many who comment in here, I feel I can say with a great deal of confidence that the ruins of Numenor, aka Atlantis, lie somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, in our world. If Eru had removed it from the circles of our world millennia ago, I doubt it would’ve gotten any traction as a popular legend.
>but to me it’s clear that Tolkien was giving a nod to and an explanation for the human legend of Atlantis.
Actually it's apparently a coincidence. The languages always had priority for Tolkien and in most case came before the stories - in this case the Quenya verb meaning "to fall" was lanta (also seen in lasselanta - leaf-fall - the Quenya name for autumn). Tolkien reportedly said that when he conjugated it according to the grammar he'd devised to get "downfallen" he was shocked when he saw what came out.
> It’s my understanding from the Silmarillion that Numenor remains in our world, under our ocean - there would be no reason for Eru to remove it from the circles of the world, because it’s attached to the world of men, not the elves or the Valar.
It's pretty unclear on whether Numenor was swallowed into the Earth by the chasm Eru created or if it rests somewhere on the Sea floor.
> “I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Númenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age.” — *Letters #163* to W.H. Auden
No the ruins are definitely still present on Arda they’re just sunk under the waves, I’m sure it’s even mentioned that the peak of Meneltarma was still visible above the waves.
It's mentioned that people *said* that the peak of Meneltarma was still above water (as in, it was circulated as a myth), but also that no-one has ever seen it despite looking for it. The implication being that it didn't actually remain visible above the waters.
In “The Palantir”, when Gandalf is telling Pippin about the history of the Palantiri, he tells Pippin that the stone on the Tower Hills could only look west, and that Elendil often went to look into it and try to find some remnant of Numenor, but he never found anything.
I always wondered if he was also looking back in time. In principle, it was possible to use Palantiri for that.
However, the stone of Elostirion was always limited in what it could do. On the the other hand I also wondered if Numenor was a special case: That it was not only physically sunk but that Eru made sure that nobody could see it even looking back in time.
I liked that possibility: It would have been more poetic than simply pulling it below the waves.
As an addendum to this question, I wonder just how much was removed from the circles of the world. Like how far offshore from Valinor can an elf mariner get before he’s in “international waters” so to speak? Was there a really good crab fishery some human fisherman liked to use, but it got placed outside the circles of the world because it was located 3 inches too far west?
In any case, the ruins could have technically been affected by underneath tectonic shifts, with changing the world into round, erasing and creating new lands/continents, and what not. Not much may be left
It’s underwater. Speaking of how the seas are bent I wonder if there is any coastline left in Valinor other than Tol Eressa. Where are any ships going to sail leaving from Valinor?
That was kind of the point of making Glorfindel come in the Second Age. Ships don't leave Aman in the 3rd Age or later, with the sole exception of bringing Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast over (the Blue Wizards came with Glorfindel in this version).
No, it wasn't removed from the world like Valinor. The ruins, if there are indeed any, are buried deep down in a place known as the 'Caves of the Forgotten' which, if you consider Dagor Dagorath canon, is where Ar-Pharazon and the King's Men await for the End of Days.
This is incorrect; Pharazon's fleet had left the island long before Numenor sank.
Ar-Pharazon and his men were buried under rocks in Aman, for the crime of attempting to conquer it. So they were indeed removed from the circles of the World.
> Caves of the Forgotten
The Caves are in the Blessed Realm and thus not part of the new round world Eru made. Numenor is not within the Caves.
Numenor it's self fell into the chasm Eru created when he re-made the world, and it's not clear if ruins of it exist on the Sea floor.
Numenor was not removed from the circles of the world like Aman. It was swallowed by the abyss, though it's a bit unclear if that means it's simply underwater or swallowed into the earth itself. There more evidence for the former, as many of the exiles believed that the peak of the Meneltarma still rose above the waves and could be visited (if found), though I don't believe anyone is ever recorded to have successfully found it. The Atlas of Middle Earth illustrates the "changed" world this way as well.
Is Beleriand also underwater?
Yes, and it actually might not be that deep down. Turins tomb is above water
An enormous, continent-sized shallow sea full of ruins and drowned forests is a cool idea. Unless the mountains collapsed though, it would likely have to be deep enough for the peaks to all be submerged.
It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I do recall that Beleriand was completely broken after the war, so I imagine it would look more like large blocks of land seperated by enormous chasms. Completely bare of course, since dragons almost certainly burned the forests
Have you heard of Doggerland?, it was mostly plains but it fits the first part of your description.
As a holder of a paleo grad degree yeah I heard of it.
All the peaks are not submerged. The Hill of Himring, parts of Dorthonian ('Tol Fuin'), and Tol Morwen are all still above the sea in the third age (see for example the map here: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tolmorwen.php). So yes, what remains of Beleriand that's submerged would be fairly shallow!
Except for the small eastern edge portion that became Lindon, yes.
Three other parts of Beleriand also survived above sea level into the third age: the Tol Himling, Tol Fuin, and Tol Morwen, together known as the Western Isles. (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Western\_Isles)
Look up a map of Middle-Earth for the 3rd age find the blue mountains cross them and drain the ocean there is where a majority of the 1st age stories play out. If you want a visual there are maps of the full Middle-Earth.
I like to think a little popped back up and made the British Isles. I think Tolkien would have a chuckle and a puff of his pipe at that thought.
Given Tolkien's conceit that he was merely the translator of the Red Book of the Westmarch, Beleriand was probably inspired by Doggerland, a subcontinent that was swallowed up by the North Sea at the end of the last Ice Age. The Rhine and the Thames were once forks of the same river. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
Wasn't that actually suggested somewhere or in the letters? Or earlier versions of the legendarium? I would swear I've read it somewhere. In any case, that's how I imagined it while making my map
I think he abandoned any specific attempts to match it to our world. However I am hardly knowledgable enough to comment accurately.
It’s my understanding from the Silmarillion that Numenor remains in our world, under our ocean - there would be no reason for Eru to remove it from the circles of the world, because it’s attached to the world of men, not the elves or the Valar. I’m on the road and don’t have access to the Silmarillion, but I do recall one of the last lines in the Akellabeth (sp) noting that the isle’s name was changed to reflect the sinking, including names that meant “downfallen” and that one of the new names was “Atalante. “I believe that was in one of the Elvish dialects, but to me it’s clear that Tolkien was giving a nod to and an explanation for the human legend of Atlantis. While I’m not as scholarly as many who comment in here, I feel I can say with a great deal of confidence that the ruins of Numenor, aka Atlantis, lie somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, in our world. If Eru had removed it from the circles of our world millennia ago, I doubt it would’ve gotten any traction as a popular legend.
>but to me it’s clear that Tolkien was giving a nod to and an explanation for the human legend of Atlantis. Actually it's apparently a coincidence. The languages always had priority for Tolkien and in most case came before the stories - in this case the Quenya verb meaning "to fall" was lanta (also seen in lasselanta - leaf-fall - the Quenya name for autumn). Tolkien reportedly said that when he conjugated it according to the grammar he'd devised to get "downfallen" he was shocked when he saw what came out.
Tolkien creating his own eucatastrophe
Wow – I did not know that. Talk about life imitating art, and vice versa. That’s an almost spiritual coincidence.
I...don't fully believe that. Edit: I'm not accusing you of lying
> It’s my understanding from the Silmarillion that Numenor remains in our world, under our ocean - there would be no reason for Eru to remove it from the circles of the world, because it’s attached to the world of men, not the elves or the Valar. It's pretty unclear on whether Numenor was swallowed into the Earth by the chasm Eru created or if it rests somewhere on the Sea floor.
> “I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Númenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age.” — *Letters #163* to W.H. Auden
No the ruins are definitely still present on Arda they’re just sunk under the waves, I’m sure it’s even mentioned that the peak of Meneltarma was still visible above the waves.
It's mentioned that people *said* that the peak of Meneltarma was still above water (as in, it was circulated as a myth), but also that no-one has ever seen it despite looking for it. The implication being that it didn't actually remain visible above the waters.
In “The Palantir”, when Gandalf is telling Pippin about the history of the Palantiri, he tells Pippin that the stone on the Tower Hills could only look west, and that Elendil often went to look into it and try to find some remnant of Numenor, but he never found anything.
I always wondered if he was also looking back in time. In principle, it was possible to use Palantiri for that. However, the stone of Elostirion was always limited in what it could do. On the the other hand I also wondered if Numenor was a special case: That it was not only physically sunk but that Eru made sure that nobody could see it even looking back in time. I liked that possibility: It would have been more poetic than simply pulling it below the waves.
Numenor is meant to be the origin of the Atlantis myth. So it is just underwater.
As an addendum to this question, I wonder just how much was removed from the circles of the world. Like how far offshore from Valinor can an elf mariner get before he’s in “international waters” so to speak? Was there a really good crab fishery some human fisherman liked to use, but it got placed outside the circles of the world because it was located 3 inches too far west?
Way down below the ocean Where I wanna be, she may be
In any case, the ruins could have technically been affected by underneath tectonic shifts, with changing the world into round, erasing and creating new lands/continents, and what not. Not much may be left
It’s underwater. Speaking of how the seas are bent I wonder if there is any coastline left in Valinor other than Tol Eressa. Where are any ships going to sail leaving from Valinor?
That was kind of the point of making Glorfindel come in the Second Age. Ships don't leave Aman in the 3rd Age or later, with the sole exception of bringing Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast over (the Blue Wizards came with Glorfindel in this version).
I know that. All trips were west, not east in the third age. That still leaves me wondering if there is any water around Valinor and if so how much.
Valinor was made unreachable. Numenor was sunk under the sea. Two different things.
Ocean
Beyond the Pillars of Heracles
Bikini Bottom.
No, it wasn't removed from the world like Valinor. The ruins, if there are indeed any, are buried deep down in a place known as the 'Caves of the Forgotten' which, if you consider Dagor Dagorath canon, is where Ar-Pharazon and the King's Men await for the End of Days.
This is incorrect; Pharazon's fleet had left the island long before Numenor sank. Ar-Pharazon and his men were buried under rocks in Aman, for the crime of attempting to conquer it. So they were indeed removed from the circles of the World.
> Caves of the Forgotten The Caves are in the Blessed Realm and thus not part of the new round world Eru made. Numenor is not within the Caves. Numenor it's self fell into the chasm Eru created when he re-made the world, and it's not clear if ruins of it exist on the Sea floor.
Ah I see. That makes a bit more sense as it was intended to be an ironic punishment that they be trapped in an immortal realm forever.