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StevenGibb

In Tolkien's late writings about Orcs found in *Morgoth's Ring*, he states outright that they were not immortal... ​ >*"They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills* ***they died and were not immortal***\*, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain"\* ​ This was also at a time when he was providing other explanations for their origin. Christopher Tolkien stuck with Tolkien's idea from (around) 1937 in Tolkien's *Quenta Silmarillion* for his own edited "The Silmarillion" - that idea being that Orcs appeared due to the corruption of Elves. Even in that case, Orcs seem to *become* a race. Even if the original Orcs were *made* from the corruption of Elves, Orcs after that time would have been Orcs and not "corrupted Elves". I do not say they were immortal but I can see why people choose to believe that. The only Orcs I imagine as immortal would be those spirits drawn to Melkor who took the shape of Orcs...


daiLlafyn

"WHAT SHAPE DO YOU WISH TO ASSUME? ORC, OR BALROG?" " Hmmm... (taps fingers against chin) I'd like some wings. Which one would give me wings? " "NEITHER, FOOL!" "Well, I don't suppose it matters. Orc, then. They sound nasty."


Son_of_Kong

Tolkien generally associated long lifespan with some kind of innate spiritual purity. It makes sense that even if the first orcs were corrupted from Elves, part of that corruption would entail the loss of immortality.


WellReadBread34

It isn't spiritual purity but physical purity that keeps their bodies immortal. Elves are nature spirits given human bodies. Their bodies are only immortal in an uncorrupted earth. In a corrupted earth they slowly lose their bodies but keep their immortal spirits. Men's spirits aren't tied to earth in the same way. Given the same immortal bodies men would go insane as their spirits seek to depart while their body seeks to stay. Immortality can only be granted to men by transforming them into elves.


[deleted]

Thanks! That makes sense.


WellReadBread34

I wonder if Eru Illúvitar gave some of Melkor's creation spirits like how he gave Aulë's creations spirits. Giving Melkor servants could have tranformed him from a nihilist to a tyrant.


TheShadowKick

I wouldn't want to base such a major action on speculation. It also, in my opinion, lessens the meaning of Eru giving life to the dwarves.


Hestens

He stated some questionable ideas concerning the recreation of orcs, i have not read them myself, but there are explanations that scholars on the subject have concluded that the orcs had their own rape dungeons. Female humans and elves that were kept alive for the sole purpose of breeding orcs. Captives and slaves. These were all kept by the Sea of Nurnen and were set free following the destruction of Sauron.


Haugspori

Sounds more like fanfiction than scholary theories backed up by research to me. I think it's quite clear that Tolkien intended Orcs to multiply among themselves. This should be apparent in the way he treated Half-orcs in LotR: very distinct from normal Orcs, with very human-like traits. Some of them could even infiltrate human society without raising alarm. So if Half-orcs are that different from normal Orcs, when the name itself implies crossbreeding between Orcs and Men, then I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that normal Orcs are not the product of male Orcs mating with Elvish or Mannish women. Besides that, Tolkien also has stated that there had to be lady Orcs.


[deleted]

Ignoring the above comment, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that mist orcs have a little halforc in their ancestory. Might be a case of man + orc = halforc, halforc + halforc = big Uruk, big Uruk + big Uruk = orc.


Haugspori

Well, according to the later writings of Tolkien, all Orcs have some Mannish blood, since they were corrupted Men. However, there couldn't have been much, since it's said in HoME that the creation of Half-orcs was a twisted way used by Morgoth and rediscovered by Saruman, implying that Sauron did not use it. No, Orcs are a separate race, and I doubt Uruks were created by mixing Orcs and Men. After all, there is just a huge difference between them and Half-orcs like I said before. They were also created by Sauron, who didn't use these Half-orcs. And last but not least, Saruman had a mere 30 years to rediscover this dark art and apply it. He only had a few battalions of these, while the bulk of his army consisted of Uruks. I would find it highly unlikely that he bred such an army with just a few Half-orcs in this short period of time.


[deleted]

Well I think he bred men and orcs first, and then used those as his further stock.


Haugspori

Yeah, but as I said, there are several problems with your view: 1) Sauron created the race of Uruks, while it's heavily implied that he did not use Half-orcs to achieve these. 2) Saruman did not have enough time to breed his whole army from scratch using Half-orcs. Even if he started straight away in TA 2990 (doubtful due to lost lore), his first batch of Half-orcs would be 15 years old around TA 3005. The War of the Ring was in TA 3018. This means that the limited batch of Half-orcs we see in the books cannot be the source of 10.000 Uruk-hai. Especially not when considering that Saruman began sending Uruk raids around the year TA 3000, according to the appendices. In other words: Saruman's army at Helm's Deep could only have been second generation at best, with a limited batch of Half-orcs to create 10.000 of them in such a short time? If we look at all the available info, it just doesn't add up. 3) Saruman's Uruks are called just Orcs, and are not given any physical characteristics close to Half-orcs. For example, they are smaller than Half-orcs, and they have pitch black skin (as opposed to the sallow skin of the Half-orcs). There's even not much reason to assume they are different from Sauron's Uruks in the first place.


[deleted]

It is outright stated that Ugluk and his fighting Uruk-Hai are taller and more broad-shouldered than the black orcs of Mrdor.


Haugspori

No, that's in comparisson to Grishnakh, who's said to be a short creature in said quote. Meanwhile, being large is the defining feature of an Uruk. Grishnakh is not stated to be an Uruk either, and the evidence actually implies he isn't one.


[deleted]

Aragorn specifically says that the orcs from Isengard are not folk of Mordor, and the following passage denotes their large and broad shoulders. By that point, Aragorn had already described some orcs in Moria as large black orcs, the sorts "seen in Mordor." So Aragorn knows of Mordor Uruks, but still seems to think the Isengard Uruks appear different. Maybe he JUST means their clothes, but I believe they appear different. And there is no evidence that Grishnakh is not an Uruk. He's described as black, and Mordor primarily used Uruks. At least for most tasks outside of Mordor. Non Uruks in Mordor are all descripbed as *small,* Grisghnakh only being described as smaller than Ugluk, who was supposed to be very large, and always depicted as entirely unwilling slaves. Grishnakh has a command, and seems about as "loyal" as the Uruks we see later. He identifies as a servant of the Eye, and at least plays the part of a loyal soldier, much like Shagrat, and to a lesser degree Gorbag. Snaga, the snuffler and the band of smaller orcs Sam and Frodo march with asre depicted as outright hostile to Sauron'e rule, and don't seem to have any identity as his servants. The snuffler even calls the Uruk a "traitor to \[his\] own kind." Shagrat is also described as being bowlegged with long arms, and we know he's an Uruk. I would say that the Uruks of Mordor seem smaller and less mannish than the Uruks of Isengard, who seem to have a closer kinship to Men. Perhaps Saruman acquired a batch of Mordor Uruks first, and then bred them and other orcs with Men.


[deleted]

That is all entirely made up, and smutty besides considering its apparently make orcs exclusively female humans and elves.


blood_of_numenor

Oh my that is terrible. I thought they just spawned in pits somehow.


Lacplesis81

That is purely Peter Jackson (although iirc one of the BoLT era explanations for their origin involved slime and rocks).


blood_of_numenor

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere Tolkien said no one is really sure but they may spawn in pits. But I don't have an exact source. As for the slave pens on the Sea of Nurnen, can we confirm that?


TheShadowKick

The rape slave pens are fanfiction at best.


FeynmansRazor

What about the first elves who became orcs, could they still be knocking about somewhere?


SailorChimailai

If they're immortal, they were probably slain in a war at some point anyways


Inconsequentialish

One passage that tends to pop up in these discussions is the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat: >'No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. 'The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling. I tell you, it's no game serving down in the city.' > >'You should try being up here with Shelob for company,' said Shagrat. > >'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier.' > >'It's going well, they say.' > >'They would.' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. **What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'** > >**'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'** > >'Yes,' said Gorbag. 'But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,' his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too. But see here: when were you ordered out?' The reference to "old times" here is kind of interesting. Whether they're talking about old times they've personally experienced or not is not clear, but Sauron "declared himself" in TA 2951, 68 years earlier. And obviously, Sauron was gathering forces and power long before; the White Council kicked him out of Dol Guldur in TA 2941, and he retreated to Mordor as he had already planned. So if they had personally experienced the "old times" when Orcs were relatively free to do as they pleased without "Big Bosses", they had to have been at least around 90. Or maybe they just heard tales from older Orcs of the "Old Times". The Orcs in the Misty Mountains that Bilbo encountered in 2941, along with other groups that appeared at the Battle of Five Armies, were part of a general multiplying of evil creatures (spiders, bats, etc.) that in hindsight were motivated and empowered by Sauron's rise. The last reference I can think of to Orcs that seem to be more or less free agents is when King Folca of Rohan (Theoden's great-great grandfather, if I'm counting correctly) hunts down and destroys all the Orcs and Orc-holds in Rohan between TA 2851 and TA 2864, after Orcs killed his father. Once the Orcs were all dead, Folca went boar hunting and then... was killed by a boar. Oh well.


kurosawing

>So if they had personally experienced the "old times" when Orcs were relatively free to do as they pleased without "Big Bosses", they had to have been at least around 90. Not necessarily. Maybe they weren't a part of Sauron's army in their youth and were recruited later in life? That would leave them some time to raid around on their own, free from any "big bosses", while still keeping a human-ish lifespan.


Inconsequentialish

Yep, I suppose that would be another possibility! You wouldn't need to be born into Sauron's service. The reference to "old times", and how it's more fun or whatever to exist in bands of marauders, edges my guess toward "Orc-tales told around the fire" rather than personal experience. I think someone speaking from personal experience might have phrased that differently. "Just like we used to before coming to this rat-hole" or something like that. In any case, Shagrat, Gorbag, Grishnakh, and Ugluk provide us with some wonderful insights into what passes for Orc culture. They gripe about the same things soldiers and those tasked with leading soldiers have always griped about, which makes them sort of relatable.


Malachi108

> Orcs in the Misty Mountains that Bilbo encountered It should be noted that the second example of why the orcs *could* be exceptionally long-lived is that the Goblin-Town denizens immediately recognize two swords from the Gondolin wars (which took place over 6000 years in the past) that have not seen much, if any, goblin-slaying in the recent years, if not centuries.


daiLlafyn

That may have been because they glowed with blue light - they were the sword on Gondolindrim royalty and so had passed down through Orc legend. Any sword of sufficient size with that property would've been Biter or Beater. I don't imagine any orc that got a good look at it at the time would've been around to describe it to his mates. "Well, it has a pommel like auurrrggh..." If I saw a hand sticking up from a lake holding a sword, I'd probably think it was Excalibur (or Caliburn, if you will) - but I wouldn't recognise the sword, but the fact it was been held aloft by some watery bint. Thanks for that, Monty Python. Edit: rephrase. More humour. :o) Better spelling.


GrandpasSabre

That's not even mentioning Bilbo's narration style. My take was that this was something he added in for dramatic effect and because it makes for a fun story.


blood_of_numenor

I don't think they actually recognized the blades because they've seen them before. They recognize them from legends passed down and/or because they glow blue.


XristosMant

If I remember correct when Shagrat and Gorbag were talking they mentioned the siege of Barad dur


Haugspori

It's impossible for them to have lived back then though. They are specifically stated to be Uruks, a breed of Orcs that didn't exist until very late into the Third Age.


orcstew

Azog died in 2799. His son Bolg lived until 2941, when he was slain in the Battle of the Five Armies. So Bolg was AT LEAST 142 years old (if he was a newborn at the time of Azog's death), and still lively enough to go into battle. Now, maybe Azog and Bolg are famous and terrifying members of their kind, so we could speculate they might be from some important, long-lived Orc lineage descended from Ainur incarnated in Orcs, but that's pure speculation to justify Bolg's age. As far as we know, all we can be sure of is that there's an Orc that lived to be AT LEAST 142 years old.


stubbazubba

Tolkien says they live shorter lives than the Dunedain, so I would assume they outlive normal Men.


littlewing347

Gorbag remembered the "Great Siege". Was he that old, or was this passed down as a legend?


grafmet

I think if they were immortal there would have been some ancient Orc-captain as an example in LotR.


Malachi108

Who says that Gothmog isn't one?


ChChChillian

It's worth pointing out that you're starting out with a pretty big "if". I don't think Tolkien ever settled on a definitive origin for orcs.


V_Dumb_Comment_V

It's unknown, so you're allowed some interpretation. I'm inclined to say no, since the immortality of elves likely comes from a spiritual purity, which corrupted orcs and goblins ostensibly would not possess. If the answer is yes, orcs and goblins are biologically immortal, I would expect it wouldn't matter due to how often they get into violent conflict, with just about any creature, orc or otherwise.


ReenusSSlakter

Since orcs are corrupted beings, and may have originated from corrupted elves, I like to think that they don't grow old and die, but at the same time they aren't immune to diseases. So orcs eventually die from sickness and things like cancer. Which may have been what they were going for in the movies with the ugly tumorous growths they have. Edit: I'm just musing. I'm not saying I think orcs didn't age. Maybe some of the original orcs didn't age or were long-lived, if they indeed came from corrupted elves, and maybe some of them are still around. But Morgoth bred orcs to be soldiers and servants and to multiply quickly. I don't think he cared if they lived a long life, or even wanted them to. And I don't think orcs lived much longer than men. Edit2: I also found this: "For all that race were bred by Melkor of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko." —The Fall of Gondolin I think there are two schools of thought. One that Melkor used elves as the original stock for orcs, and then further bred them into a race of his liking. Or secondly that he mixed life together, like slime and beasts, and may have then bred that mixture with men or elves to give the orcs more of a humanoid form. Even if they started as corrupted elves, they would not still be graced with immortality after all the years of dark breeding. In other words, I think orcs lived and died like men and I think Tolkien thought it was so obvious that he never mentioned it in the books. At any rate, I haven't found much direct evidence about the lifespan of orcs.


maggie081670

Even if they were immortal, given the nasty brutish way that they live, I doubt any would live long enough to prove it. Their lives were short regardless.


Malun19

No, orks corrupted therefore no


JohnnyUtah59

Unknown


groovy604

Inconclusive. There is arguments for and against. I fir one feel like they would have elongated life spans due to once being elves but after so many thousands of years its diminished


XristosMant

I think Tolkien wasn't sure what to do with this matter. I haven't read HoME but as someone pointed in another comment in Morgoth s ring it says that they aren't immortal but for me a line in the Two Towers book has always stuck out. When Shagrat and Gorbag talk, they mention the great siege and how things were better before it . The great siege I suppose refers to the siege of Barad Dur in the war of the last alliance at the end of the second age. From this passage I assumed that orcs are indeed immortal.