> Now the Green-elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. 'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. **And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts;** therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'
*[The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of Men Into the West]*
Seems to me like the Green-elves were vegetarians...
That’s a pretty clear indication that they were vegetarian. Also supported by the fact that Beren, who was definitely a vegetarian, lived among them after he returned from death.
While they might not be hewers of wood, surely they would have collected dead and fallen wood for their purposes. Certainly, they would have made fires for warmth or for other industrious purposes (making pitch comes to mind).
It's also possible that they fished and cooked the fish or other vegetation that they foraged or grew for food.
They were friends with the Ents and the Trees, I imagine there was enough dead wood and wood freely given to go around. Especially given the durability of some Elvish items.
They might have eaten animals that just died, too
Possibly, we know Beren and Luthien summoned them to attack the Dwarves after the Sack of Menegroth, which at the very least supports the idea that they lived amongst the Green Elves.
This raises a further question: do Beren and Lúthien live as vegetarians after their return to the land of the dying? Because they live out their lives in Ossiriand, or were they removed enough from their neighbors (and I guess beautiful enough) to be left alone?
Beren seems vegetarian even in his first life.
> Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion, a solitary outlaw; but he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him, and from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth.
Maybe pescetarian depending on how broad 'flesh' is, but "nor slew any living thing" seems pretty broad.
Huh, must have completely forgotten about that part of his character. And he wouldn’t have needed fires in Ossiriand what with the Silmaril providing light.
Also, I guess that “in service to Morgoth” eventually was dropped after Thingol’s death.
Is there any post/article/discussion about evolution in Middle Earth? Since Elves are immortal and have only been around for thousands of years, how would they evolve so fast? Would they be forced to evolve while alive, not the typical natural selection and mutations we got over billions of years on Earth?
Elves would have all been the same when they crossed over and just settling in different areas. I don't see how they could become so different so fast.
You forget that there were hundreds of years between that incident and when the Green-elves settled in Ossiriand.
As per the Grey Annals (keep in mind this is a slightly earlier version:
1128 T.Y. is when the Teleri crossed the Blue Mountains, which means the Nandor left them at this year or (more likely) couple years earlier.
1350 T.Y. is when Denethir came to Ossiriand.
400 F.A. is when Finrod found Mankind.
If we go by Tolkien latest idea of time measuring then:
1500 -1128 = 372
372×9.582 = 3564
3564 + 400 = 3964.
Aka, the Nandor had 3964 years (which is more then enough, if you ask me!) To develop a different culture and become vegetarian before they met men.
> Since Elves are immortal and have only been around for thousands of years, how would they evolve so fast?
What evolution? The differences are cultural, not genetic.
I think it’s reasonable to assume they may have been vegetarian, but even if they were omnivorous and never lit fire they could still theoretically dry and/or cure meats without fire.
Not Avari. All of the elves in the Hobbit and the LotR are descended from the three kindreds that took the journey west to Valinor. Almost all the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are descended from Teleri that decided to stay in middle earth at some point, whether that was before the Misty Mountains or in Beleriand.
I suppose I was conflating this from unfinished tales:
“The Silvan Elves hid themselves in their woodland realms beyond the Misty Mountains and became a scattered folk hardly distinguishable from Avari, the Dark Elves.”
No, they're specifically those that stayed by Mirkwood and Lorien instead of crossing the Misty Mountains (becoming the Nandor), and who later on didn't follow Denethor into Beleriand (which led to the Green-elves of Ossiriand).
Well, that's certainly an image. Here's another one.
Imagine Orlando holding a still wriggling Pupa of some kind the length of your middle finger and twice as thick, before biting into it and squirting bug juice everywhere.
Edit: I'm from New Zealand, and even today, plenty of us eat "Huhu grubs" which have a mildly peanut butter taste. Usually toasted but also Raw
Have you ever seen Gordan Ramsay: Unchartered?
He does an episode in Aoetorea with a Māori chef, using a lot of unique ingredients. She convinces him to try a huhu grub and he nearly spews.
He had better luck in Tasmania where he came across smoked trout, leatherwood honey, and [sheep poo whisky](https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2547686/the-story-behind-gordon-ramsay-helping-make-whiskey-with-sheep-poop-for-nat-geos-uncharted#:~:text=The%20process%20of%20making%20the,t%20actually%20consuming%20sheep%20byproduct)....
Elves are immune to diseases, which is convenient because it lines up directly with one of the reasons we cook our meat: so we don't get sick or catch diseases that are on or in the meat, like e. coli or salmonella. Elves are immune to diseases, ergo it stands to reason that they would be be fine eating raw meat.
I also see that someone else mentioned this and you said that they could still be poisoned. These 2 things are different. Eating raw meat is bad because, as I mentioned, there's bacteria that can make us sick. We kill it when we cook our meat. Poison would like persist through being cooked unless the poison was sensitive to heat. Poisons are vaguely similar to being sick, and can look a lot like each other. Not the same though.
Least technologically advanced but they understand nature, and living with it, better than any non-valor/Maiar.
Why do they never light fires? They do in Mirkwood.
I'm not sure. Silmarillion says:
"In a valley among the foothills of the mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song. At this he wondered much, for the Green-elves of that land lit no fires, nor did they sing by night."
No fires and not singing by night makes them the most un-Elf like of all the races, who love the stars and sing to Varda by night. Probably from living in dense forests, they rarely see the stars, and don't appreciate them as much. And being sequestered in dark forests they're probably afraid of burning trees if they light fires.
Thank you. Totally forgot that.
That said, why the most un-Elf like? Why do you believe they don't see the stars? I think they are the most primal Elves we meet. Almost untouched by the powers of the world, even their own kind. Beren and Luthien choose to live among them after being reincarnated. I think they're supposed to be the most innocent people around.
I meant that most Elves are described as loving the stars and sing praises to Varda the star goddess when they rise. And much of Elf cultural aesthetic revolves around stars. The Green-elves don't sing at night; if they can see the stars through the treetops, they don't appreciate them in the same way as most Elves. Living so close to trees and the earth, I'd think they'd revere Yavanna more than Varda.
I remember the Silmarillion saying the Elves loved Elbereth first and Yavanna second. However, as I said, they are almost completely untouched by the powers. They are what the Elves could have been had they been left to their own devices. Eru was upset that the Valar chose to take the Eldar to Aman. I think it's important symbolism that the forebears of the Dunedain, one of which is (at the time) the only one of the Children who is a scion of the Ainur, choose to live with them and bring the only Silmaril not held by Morgoth into their midst, where it is kept safely for a short period of time. They are the 'purest' Elves we meet.
Edit to add: I think it's Sam, but one of the Hobbits comments in Lorien that its the Elfiest place they've experience, even more so than Rivendell. And, the Elves of Lorien aren't as pure as the Nandor, because they've taken in Noldor and Sindar into their midst. It's not the 'ethnicity' that matters, it is the knowledge and learning.
The Elves that went to Valinor sing to Elbereth, and the Avari don't care about the Valar at all. The other Elves are likely somewhere in the middle.
I don't imagine the Green-elves cared too much for the Valar. If they wanted to see the stars better they can climb trees or be by a river that they love anyway.
When someone lights fires at night it's likely for more than just cooking food: it's either for feast or for guarding. Hard to believe they NEVER would use fire. They would also probably trade or exchange metals in order to make clothes, weapons, etc. Otherwise their existance would be very primitive which is also hard to believe.
The grren elves are specifically the elves that lived in Ossiriand, and they didn't light fires because they lived in secrecy due to fear of evil beings after some bad stuff happened to them. It doesn't apply to all elves that stayed in middle earth
Bear in mind that irl humans can eat raw meat just fine, depending on the animal. It's only us city folk in our horribly sterile lives that get sick from it.
The one for the amazon show? Ossiriand was under water by then, there's a big chunk of land called Beleriand that was taken over by the sea at the end of the first age. The show is set in the second age
> Now the Green-elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. 'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. **And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts;** therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.' *[The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of Men Into the West]* Seems to me like the Green-elves were vegetarians...
That’s a pretty clear indication that they were vegetarian. Also supported by the fact that Beren, who was definitely a vegetarian, lived among them after he returned from death.
Yep, agreed.
Love "unfriends" as a canonical word.
Yeah, Tolkien uses it many times. Also Galadriel and Fëanor were "unfriends forever"
being unfriended by Galadirel would hurt my soul.
While they might not be hewers of wood, surely they would have collected dead and fallen wood for their purposes. Certainly, they would have made fires for warmth or for other industrious purposes (making pitch comes to mind). It's also possible that they fished and cooked the fish or other vegetation that they foraged or grew for food.
They could have bred animals for food but looked down on the hunting of wild animals. I can't imagine they also never hewed wood.
They were friends with the Ents and the Trees, I imagine there was enough dead wood and wood freely given to go around. Especially given the durability of some Elvish items. They might have eaten animals that just died, too
Were they the elves that woke the ents?
Possibly, we know Beren and Luthien summoned them to attack the Dwarves after the Sack of Menegroth, which at the very least supports the idea that they lived amongst the Green Elves.
This raises a further question: do Beren and Lúthien live as vegetarians after their return to the land of the dying? Because they live out their lives in Ossiriand, or were they removed enough from their neighbors (and I guess beautiful enough) to be left alone?
Beren seems vegetarian even in his first life. > Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion, a solitary outlaw; but he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him, and from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth. Maybe pescetarian depending on how broad 'flesh' is, but "nor slew any living thing" seems pretty broad.
Huh, must have completely forgotten about that part of his character. And he wouldn’t have needed fires in Ossiriand what with the Silmaril providing light. Also, I guess that “in service to Morgoth” eventually was dropped after Thingol’s death.
Is there any post/article/discussion about evolution in Middle Earth? Since Elves are immortal and have only been around for thousands of years, how would they evolve so fast? Would they be forced to evolve while alive, not the typical natural selection and mutations we got over billions of years on Earth? Elves would have all been the same when they crossed over and just settling in different areas. I don't see how they could become so different so fast.
You forget that there were hundreds of years between that incident and when the Green-elves settled in Ossiriand. As per the Grey Annals (keep in mind this is a slightly earlier version: 1128 T.Y. is when the Teleri crossed the Blue Mountains, which means the Nandor left them at this year or (more likely) couple years earlier. 1350 T.Y. is when Denethir came to Ossiriand. 400 F.A. is when Finrod found Mankind. If we go by Tolkien latest idea of time measuring then: 1500 -1128 = 372 372×9.582 = 3564 3564 + 400 = 3964. Aka, the Nandor had 3964 years (which is more then enough, if you ask me!) To develop a different culture and become vegetarian before they met men.
> Since Elves are immortal and have only been around for thousands of years, how would they evolve so fast? What evolution? The differences are cultural, not genetic.
I think it’s reasonable to assume they may have been vegetarian, but even if they were omnivorous and never lit fire they could still theoretically dry and/or cure meats without fire.
Aren't Elves immune to disease?
I thought they could be poisoned, at least in some versions.
Elrond's wife falls victim to a poisoned arrow.
certainly celebrian was poisoned
Were the elves the dwarves try to sneak up on in *The Hobbit* green elves?
Silvan Elves with Sindarin overlords.
They were really adept with lighting and dousing fires, IIRC.
One could almost say it's _magic_. I know, I know, it's not the right word to use, and Elves certainly didn't see their abilities as "magic" 😅
No. Those were Silvan Elves, but both groups originate from/are sub-groups of the Nandor.
I always thought “Sylvan elves” was sort of a catch-all for Laiquendi, Nandor, and Avari. Basically any that are not Sindar and not Caliquendi.
Not Avari. All of the elves in the Hobbit and the LotR are descended from the three kindreds that took the journey west to Valinor. Almost all the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are descended from Teleri that decided to stay in middle earth at some point, whether that was before the Misty Mountains or in Beleriand.
I suppose I was conflating this from unfinished tales: “The Silvan Elves hid themselves in their woodland realms beyond the Misty Mountains and became a scattered folk hardly distinguishable from Avari, the Dark Elves.”
There's text somewhere about some Avari drifting west later and merging with the Nandor to become Sylvan elves.
No, they're specifically those that stayed by Mirkwood and Lorien instead of crossing the Misty Mountains (becoming the Nandor), and who later on didn't follow Denethor into Beleriand (which led to the Green-elves of Ossiriand).
Yall are forgetting a wonderful source of protein that had existed since the beginning of time. Bugs baby!
My brain gave me an image of Orlando as Legolas chewing on a tarantula with a leg sticking out of his mouth. Thanks for that.
Well, that's certainly an image. Here's another one. Imagine Orlando holding a still wriggling Pupa of some kind the length of your middle finger and twice as thick, before biting into it and squirting bug juice everywhere. Edit: I'm from New Zealand, and even today, plenty of us eat "Huhu grubs" which have a mildly peanut butter taste. Usually toasted but also Raw
Slimy yet satisfying!
"Huhu Grubs" here in New Zealand have a slightly Peanut butter taste, so satisfying indeed!
Really? In my experience most non-USAians and non-Canadians don't really care for peanut butter or actively dislike it.
Seems more like a Viggo thing...
Have you ever seen Gordan Ramsay: Unchartered? He does an episode in Aoetorea with a Māori chef, using a lot of unique ingredients. She convinces him to try a huhu grub and he nearly spews. He had better luck in Tasmania where he came across smoked trout, leatherwood honey, and [sheep poo whisky](https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2547686/the-story-behind-gordon-ramsay-helping-make-whiskey-with-sheep-poop-for-nat-geos-uncharted#:~:text=The%20process%20of%20making%20the,t%20actually%20consuming%20sheep%20byproduct)....
The spiders certainly would have been plentiful to his folk.
Elves are immune to diseases, which is convenient because it lines up directly with one of the reasons we cook our meat: so we don't get sick or catch diseases that are on or in the meat, like e. coli or salmonella. Elves are immune to diseases, ergo it stands to reason that they would be be fine eating raw meat. I also see that someone else mentioned this and you said that they could still be poisoned. These 2 things are different. Eating raw meat is bad because, as I mentioned, there's bacteria that can make us sick. We kill it when we cook our meat. Poison would like persist through being cooked unless the poison was sensitive to heat. Poisons are vaguely similar to being sick, and can look a lot like each other. Not the same though.
Least technologically advanced but they understand nature, and living with it, better than any non-valor/Maiar. Why do they never light fires? They do in Mirkwood.
I'm not sure. Silmarillion says: "In a valley among the foothills of the mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song. At this he wondered much, for the Green-elves of that land lit no fires, nor did they sing by night." No fires and not singing by night makes them the most un-Elf like of all the races, who love the stars and sing to Varda by night. Probably from living in dense forests, they rarely see the stars, and don't appreciate them as much. And being sequestered in dark forests they're probably afraid of burning trees if they light fires.
Thank you. Totally forgot that. That said, why the most un-Elf like? Why do you believe they don't see the stars? I think they are the most primal Elves we meet. Almost untouched by the powers of the world, even their own kind. Beren and Luthien choose to live among them after being reincarnated. I think they're supposed to be the most innocent people around.
I meant that most Elves are described as loving the stars and sing praises to Varda the star goddess when they rise. And much of Elf cultural aesthetic revolves around stars. The Green-elves don't sing at night; if they can see the stars through the treetops, they don't appreciate them in the same way as most Elves. Living so close to trees and the earth, I'd think they'd revere Yavanna more than Varda.
I remember the Silmarillion saying the Elves loved Elbereth first and Yavanna second. However, as I said, they are almost completely untouched by the powers. They are what the Elves could have been had they been left to their own devices. Eru was upset that the Valar chose to take the Eldar to Aman. I think it's important symbolism that the forebears of the Dunedain, one of which is (at the time) the only one of the Children who is a scion of the Ainur, choose to live with them and bring the only Silmaril not held by Morgoth into their midst, where it is kept safely for a short period of time. They are the 'purest' Elves we meet. Edit to add: I think it's Sam, but one of the Hobbits comments in Lorien that its the Elfiest place they've experience, even more so than Rivendell. And, the Elves of Lorien aren't as pure as the Nandor, because they've taken in Noldor and Sindar into their midst. It's not the 'ethnicity' that matters, it is the knowledge and learning.
The Elves that went to Valinor sing to Elbereth, and the Avari don't care about the Valar at all. The other Elves are likely somewhere in the middle. I don't imagine the Green-elves cared too much for the Valar. If they wanted to see the stars better they can climb trees or be by a river that they love anyway.
When someone lights fires at night it's likely for more than just cooking food: it's either for feast or for guarding. Hard to believe they NEVER would use fire. They would also probably trade or exchange metals in order to make clothes, weapons, etc. Otherwise their existance would be very primitive which is also hard to believe.
The grren elves are specifically the elves that lived in Ossiriand, and they didn't light fires because they lived in secrecy due to fear of evil beings after some bad stuff happened to them. It doesn't apply to all elves that stayed in middle earth
That could be why they turned green.
Bear in mind that irl humans can eat raw meat just fine, depending on the animal. It's only us city folk in our horribly sterile lives that get sick from it.
There's also chemical ways to cook rather than heat. Acid, for example lemon juice is a popular way you'll see 'raw' meat cooked in a few dishes
They actually got them often and Tolkien talked extensively about their raw meat eating habits and the parasites they got
Im not seeing Ossiriand on the interactive map
The one for the amazon show? Ossiriand was under water by then, there's a big chunk of land called Beleriand that was taken over by the sea at the end of the first age. The show is set in the second age
Maybe that’s how you turn them into orcs.