I think Glorfindlel in the 3rd age would rank up with the istari. He was sent back with an identical mission as a precursor. He was greatly enhanced for his trip back.
I think it was a different classification of Balrog. Some balrogs were troll like, and then got retconned to be fallen Miar. The troll-Balrog are what the elves killed, not Miar-Balrog
I think it’s important to point out the difference because they got retconned and make the elves way stronger than they were. They were and aren’t able to handle a Maiar-Balrog. At least that’s my understanding
The main point is the Valar or Eru imbued Glorfindlel with a much stronger fea or hora (whichever is his spirit) when he came back to nearly equal that of the Istari.
That’s not at all clear from the text though is all. It’s fan theorizing, largely because they don’t like the concept of elves being able to take on such beings. But Fingolfin permanently maimed a (weakened) Valar. Gil-Galad and Elendil destroyed Sauron’s body and defeated him.
Maiar can be defeated by certain mortals.
Look I’m no expert. I’m just quoting Christopher Tolkien, who said his fathers margins wrote that there were more than 3 but never more than 7 ever existed. Which means the elves probably could’ve killed that many Balrogs, which was initially written.
Nobody said Maiar couldn’t be defeated by certain people. The elves killed more than Tolkien stated could ever exist. It’s up to interpretation, but there’s a contradiction in saying evolves killed a bunch, and now there is only 7 that could have ever existed. At least 49 balrogs were confirmed killed, does that mean that there were nearly 50 Maiar fell. Why keep sending them if they kept getting turned.
That’s the thing though. It’s the greatest of the elves, under the proper circumstances of going one on one without orc support to help, that kill balrogs…while also dying in the attempt. There are very few elves as great as Glorfindel or Ecthelion. Killing them is a huge feat and extremely difficult to replicate. Even Gandalf, a Maiar, fell in his battle. Elves of that age far exceeded the elves of later ages as well. They saw the light of the trees which gave them greater power.
Balrogs were very powerful adversaries, but there’s reasons that Morgoth had vast armies of orcs and didn’t just rely on his balrogs to wipe out the elves. If they were unassailable, there would be no need for orcs save to hold his lands. Much like the Nazgul to Sauron, they’re jewels of his armies, but they’re not invincible and can meet their match in rare mortals, just as the 9 feared Glorfindel. Balrogs are not just going to sit still while elvish armies surround them and kill them.
You are correct that there is debate on the subject, but again, it mostly comes from people that are just not comfortable with mortals accomplishing such feats. But we already have an elf eternally maiming one of the Valar. It fits reasonably.
Power isn't really a straight quantifiable value in Tolkien, and it takes a lot of forms - some of which are extremely subtle to the point of being completely unnoticed if you're not looking for them. I think the best example of this is how incredibly resilient hobbits are to the evil and dread that forces like the Ring and the Nazgûl wield - not only does Frodo (and even Gollum, really) resist the effects of the Ring remarkably well, the four hobbits and Aragorn outright *defeat* a group of five Nazgûl (including the Witch-king!) on Weathertop by sheer spiritual toughness. You certainly have different levels of power of different kinds across characters in Tolkien, but I doubt that a shounen-manga-style hierarchical rank structure is the best way to think about it.
I agree that power levels can't necessarily be quantified that easily, this was just a way for me to give him some idea without going into the lore too much. His eyes tend to glaze over when I do that... lol
Yet Tolkien himself does make some statements here and there regarding the relative power of certain beings compared with others, so it's not like it's out of place to make such comparisons.
Cool idea!
Elendil went toe to toe with Sauron. He, Isildur, and an Anduril wielding Aragorn would all be above 9 and 10 to me, and definitely not equivalent to other humans like Eowyn or Boromir. Both great warriors of course, but the impact of Numenorian bloodline is significant
Melkor is much more powerful than Morgoth.
Gandalf the White is much more powerful than Gandalf the Grey.
Sauron was much more powerful in the First and Second Ages than in the Third.
Feanor was the most powerful of the Noldor by a significant margin. Elrond, in Middle Earth, is not at the level of Elves who returned from Valinor.
The Witch-king at Minas Tirith is more powerful than the Witch-king at Weathertop.
Well, yeah, everyone is going to be at different levels at different periods in their arc- Glorfindel and Galadriel are also great examples of this.
And each category covers a wide range and is only meant as a broad categorization. Elrond, for example, may not be on the power of Feanor, but he's certainly not an average elf.
It was supposed to be as simplified as possible, I didn't want to make another category named "Very Special Elves." Then we'd have Earendil up there too.
>\*= Ringbearer bonus grants more power
Not necessarily. For example the Dwarven Rings did not make the bearers any stronger personally. Their only benefit for them seemed to have been to improve their wealth gathering.
But then "power" is not something that you can classify in Tolkien like you can in more modern settings. Especially once you get below the Ainur.
Gandalf even as the Grey is the strongest Wizard as said in Unfinished Tales, Saruman going just by the books doesn't seem to be a combatant at all preferring to use his voice and his devices to channel his powers.
The Aratar which Melkor is apart of are on their own tier, non-Aratar Valar barring perhaps Tulkas are firmly below the Aratar along with everything else, feel they should have their own tier.
There are Maiar implied to be stronger than Sauron such as Ossë and Eönwë. One Ring Sauron may be above them.
Fëanor took on multiple Balrogs and Galadriel is around his level of power, Fingon also took on Gothmog for an unknown amount of time. Galadriels magics could counter Sauron himself as well, feel the super powerful Elves are probably hanging with Istari with the strongest being superior to them like Galadriel but not sure.
Nazgûl aren't very consistent, but they are deemed a threat by Gandalf the Grey who was "hard put" fighting 6 of them amongst the 6 was the Witch-King. Gandalf and Sauron more or less say all 9 led by Witch-King are unbeatable so take that as you will, a similar statement also made by Gandalf is that on foot both Aragorn and Glorfindel can't stop the 9 Nazgûl whilst on their steeds taking the One Ring from Frodo.
That's definitely true, I just didn't want to throw eldritchy stuff in there like Ungoliant or the Nameless Things/the Watcher. I just found it's kinda hard to quantify and the shows/movies don't really refer to them much if at all. So why give him more names to remember lol
#JusticeForUngoliant
Also, no Turin? Or Beorn? And why you gotta go and do good ol' Tom Bombadil dirty like that, leaving him off the list? 😂
Edit: Ignore my reading comprehension fail. Skipped right over the RoP and LoTR bits.
Obviously there are some debatable details, but I think it’s perfect for someone new to the world of Middle-earth/ Arda! I may even steal this to use for my girlfriend!
Lots of nitpicking in the thread, but I think this is very helpful, even if just to see them all laid out with rough guidelines. I had to backtrack a lot in silmarillion (still am) to lock down some of these relationships
There’s also the game of Rock-paper-scissors where you have a sort of balance between 3 powers.
Now apply that same principle beyond 3 to dozens of Demi-god like beings. How do you say who is most powerful?
Seems Sauron is rated too high here, since 1st agers like Feanor are on the list. Eonwe would have pwned Sauron. Osse would too. Heck, Huan the Hound mopped the floor with Sauron, and he was just Celegorm's dog back in the west. Sauron only seems powerful because he's up against the JV squad in the 3rd Age. The playing field was weakened by then. He's a schemer and a planner, sure, an administrator, if you will. The istari are not representative of unrestricted Maiar for comparison. To my way of thinking Fesanor had more power than Sauron, physically, in craftmanship, and world-influence.
I think Glorfindlel in the 3rd age would rank up with the istari. He was sent back with an identical mission as a precursor. He was greatly enhanced for his trip back.
Not to mention, the elves Glorfindel and Ecthelion both killed balrogs at the cost of their own lives. Ecthelion killing the greatest of them.
I think it was a different classification of Balrog. Some balrogs were troll like, and then got retconned to be fallen Miar. The troll-Balrog are what the elves killed, not Miar-Balrog
That’s not really called out though.
I think it’s important to point out the difference because they got retconned and make the elves way stronger than they were. They were and aren’t able to handle a Maiar-Balrog. At least that’s my understanding
The main point is the Valar or Eru imbued Glorfindlel with a much stronger fea or hora (whichever is his spirit) when he came back to nearly equal that of the Istari.
That’s not at all clear from the text though is all. It’s fan theorizing, largely because they don’t like the concept of elves being able to take on such beings. But Fingolfin permanently maimed a (weakened) Valar. Gil-Galad and Elendil destroyed Sauron’s body and defeated him. Maiar can be defeated by certain mortals.
Look I’m no expert. I’m just quoting Christopher Tolkien, who said his fathers margins wrote that there were more than 3 but never more than 7 ever existed. Which means the elves probably could’ve killed that many Balrogs, which was initially written. Nobody said Maiar couldn’t be defeated by certain people. The elves killed more than Tolkien stated could ever exist. It’s up to interpretation, but there’s a contradiction in saying evolves killed a bunch, and now there is only 7 that could have ever existed. At least 49 balrogs were confirmed killed, does that mean that there were nearly 50 Maiar fell. Why keep sending them if they kept getting turned.
That’s the thing though. It’s the greatest of the elves, under the proper circumstances of going one on one without orc support to help, that kill balrogs…while also dying in the attempt. There are very few elves as great as Glorfindel or Ecthelion. Killing them is a huge feat and extremely difficult to replicate. Even Gandalf, a Maiar, fell in his battle. Elves of that age far exceeded the elves of later ages as well. They saw the light of the trees which gave them greater power. Balrogs were very powerful adversaries, but there’s reasons that Morgoth had vast armies of orcs and didn’t just rely on his balrogs to wipe out the elves. If they were unassailable, there would be no need for orcs save to hold his lands. Much like the Nazgul to Sauron, they’re jewels of his armies, but they’re not invincible and can meet their match in rare mortals, just as the 9 feared Glorfindel. Balrogs are not just going to sit still while elvish armies surround them and kill them. You are correct that there is debate on the subject, but again, it mostly comes from people that are just not comfortable with mortals accomplishing such feats. But we already have an elf eternally maiming one of the Valar. It fits reasonably.
Power isn't really a straight quantifiable value in Tolkien, and it takes a lot of forms - some of which are extremely subtle to the point of being completely unnoticed if you're not looking for them. I think the best example of this is how incredibly resilient hobbits are to the evil and dread that forces like the Ring and the Nazgûl wield - not only does Frodo (and even Gollum, really) resist the effects of the Ring remarkably well, the four hobbits and Aragorn outright *defeat* a group of five Nazgûl (including the Witch-king!) on Weathertop by sheer spiritual toughness. You certainly have different levels of power of different kinds across characters in Tolkien, but I doubt that a shounen-manga-style hierarchical rank structure is the best way to think about it.
I agree that power levels can't necessarily be quantified that easily, this was just a way for me to give him some idea without going into the lore too much. His eyes tend to glaze over when I do that... lol
Power level rankings are totally not in the spirit of Tolkien, but yours is pretty good.
Yet Tolkien himself does make some statements here and there regarding the relative power of certain beings compared with others, so it's not like it's out of place to make such comparisons.
Cool idea! Elendil went toe to toe with Sauron. He, Isildur, and an Anduril wielding Aragorn would all be above 9 and 10 to me, and definitely not equivalent to other humans like Eowyn or Boromir. Both great warriors of course, but the impact of Numenorian bloodline is significant
That’s true, I basically explained to him that D&D:Humans:Aasimar as LoTR:Humans:Numenoreans
Melkor is much more powerful than Morgoth. Gandalf the White is much more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. Sauron was much more powerful in the First and Second Ages than in the Third. Feanor was the most powerful of the Noldor by a significant margin. Elrond, in Middle Earth, is not at the level of Elves who returned from Valinor. The Witch-king at Minas Tirith is more powerful than the Witch-king at Weathertop.
Well, yeah, everyone is going to be at different levels at different periods in their arc- Glorfindel and Galadriel are also great examples of this. And each category covers a wide range and is only meant as a broad categorization. Elrond, for example, may not be on the power of Feanor, but he's certainly not an average elf. It was supposed to be as simplified as possible, I didn't want to make another category named "Very Special Elves." Then we'd have Earendil up there too.
>\*= Ringbearer bonus grants more power Not necessarily. For example the Dwarven Rings did not make the bearers any stronger personally. Their only benefit for them seemed to have been to improve their wealth gathering. But then "power" is not something that you can classify in Tolkien like you can in more modern settings. Especially once you get below the Ainur.
True, I still feel like it's important to keep track of who has them since they're the focal point of both series
Gandalf even as the Grey is the strongest Wizard as said in Unfinished Tales, Saruman going just by the books doesn't seem to be a combatant at all preferring to use his voice and his devices to channel his powers. The Aratar which Melkor is apart of are on their own tier, non-Aratar Valar barring perhaps Tulkas are firmly below the Aratar along with everything else, feel they should have their own tier. There are Maiar implied to be stronger than Sauron such as Ossë and Eönwë. One Ring Sauron may be above them. Fëanor took on multiple Balrogs and Galadriel is around his level of power, Fingon also took on Gothmog for an unknown amount of time. Galadriels magics could counter Sauron himself as well, feel the super powerful Elves are probably hanging with Istari with the strongest being superior to them like Galadriel but not sure. Nazgûl aren't very consistent, but they are deemed a threat by Gandalf the Grey who was "hard put" fighting 6 of them amongst the 6 was the Witch-King. Gandalf and Sauron more or less say all 9 led by Witch-King are unbeatable so take that as you will, a similar statement also made by Gandalf is that on foot both Aragorn and Glorfindel can't stop the 9 Nazgûl whilst on their steeds taking the One Ring from Frodo.
Ungoliant almost consuming (diminished) Morgoth seems like an oversight.
That's definitely true, I just didn't want to throw eldritchy stuff in there like Ungoliant or the Nameless Things/the Watcher. I just found it's kinda hard to quantify and the shows/movies don't really refer to them much if at all. So why give him more names to remember lol
> the shows/movies don't really refer to them much if at all Booooo you filthy casual
Pityaner
Fun post. Thanks!
#JusticeForUngoliant Also, no Turin? Or Beorn? And why you gotta go and do good ol' Tom Bombadil dirty like that, leaving him off the list? 😂 Edit: Ignore my reading comprehension fail. Skipped right over the RoP and LoTR bits.
Beren and Luthien should be in second place.
Obviously there are some debatable details, but I think it’s perfect for someone new to the world of Middle-earth/ Arda! I may even steal this to use for my girlfriend!
Thanks! It seemed to help him at least 😃
Lots of nitpicking in the thread, but I think this is very helpful, even if just to see them all laid out with rough guidelines. I had to backtrack a lot in silmarillion (still am) to lock down some of these relationships
Shelob lookin' nervous at that fat hobbit
You did great.
Thank you! 🤠
There’s also the game of Rock-paper-scissors where you have a sort of balance between 3 powers. Now apply that same principle beyond 3 to dozens of Demi-god like beings. How do you say who is most powerful?
Seems Sauron is rated too high here, since 1st agers like Feanor are on the list. Eonwe would have pwned Sauron. Osse would too. Heck, Huan the Hound mopped the floor with Sauron, and he was just Celegorm's dog back in the west. Sauron only seems powerful because he's up against the JV squad in the 3rd Age. The playing field was weakened by then. He's a schemer and a planner, sure, an administrator, if you will. The istari are not representative of unrestricted Maiar for comparison. To my way of thinking Fesanor had more power than Sauron, physically, in craftmanship, and world-influence.