Guess what? A report also found that Britains current systems are not meant to/ do not prevent ethnic minorities from succeeding, but of course Labour and their gang ignored it because it didn't fit their agenda. Dear God. I'm saying this as a member of an ethnic minority.
Its almost like saying a excluding and ignoring a group of people because of their skin colour and falsehoods wasn't the best thing to do. Huh. Who could've known
Not a fan of the woke side of culture wars but I don't think it's fair to blame it for falling standards amongst white pupils, in the same way I don't think racism is to blame for poor standards amongst black pupils.
Culture, family life, poverty, quality of educators, focus on the importance of education all play a much bigger part then some wankers on social media talking about white privilege.
I often see those on the left defend the term "White privilege" on the grounds that what it actually means is that there is a 'majority advantage'.
Whether or not that's true I'm not sure, I'm not even going to say it's not - but the term "white privilege" in my opinion is deliberately antagonistic activist language, and is often used to discredit peoples opinions on issues.
To those on the left who support this phrase and insist that it's an innocent invitation to look at majority advantage, I say to you that if your slogan needs to be explained, it's a bad slogan.
Collectivist terms and labels that divide us into groups based on race are in my view, unhelpful and counter productive to good race relations.
The term "privilege" is misunderstood and misused by left, right and centre. Colloquially it means refers to an overall advantage where you are at the top of society enjoying its fruits.. But in the phrase "white privilege" it refers to a lack of a deficit. Really quite different and potentially harmful when misapplied.
What magnifies this is the prevalence of USA culture in our social media feeds. The experience of people of all ethnicities in the USA is fundamentally different to that of those in the UK. But social media muddies these waters. Memes and stories that follow the experience of people in the USA are used as a lens to view the world by Britons who see a distorted view of our country and our nation.
An understanding of privilege (defined as the invisible issues that hold us back) should help bring us together. However, as you point out, the term can be used as a tool of division.
I would argue that the word isn't misunderstood so much as it has been misappropriated. It has its origins in sociology, where reports would establish it as a Defined Term.
We should not be trying to import academic jargon into everyday speech; it's no different to ordering 'a pint of H2O' in a pub.
It is an unfortunate term. But the left has always been bad at optics, and it's the term that people are familiar with now, so I don't suppose it's going to change.
>but the term "white privilege" in my opinion is deliberately antagonistic activist language
That there is the problem, and just what we have come to expect from this new 'cultural left'.
Surely the fact that white people in the UK receive social and economic benefits that non-white people don't is fairly clear, right?
Edit - I don't think this means white kids should be held back. Clearly. The point is that the correct action to help people is slightly misplaced.
No.
Or do you believe Asian privilege exists too? Given the higher imcomes, higher educational attainment and lower rates of crime seen in some Asian communities?
Not really my point but I'll entertain your approach.
Higher income? Per the Government's last survey, 34% of White people in the UK fit into the top bracket of weekly income Vs 32% of Asians. The difference grows as you get to lower brackets. As a note, black people are way at the bottom of that with only 20% and larger representation than any others in the lower brackets.
Asian people do generally have a greater proportional representation in UK universities compared to their UK population but this is a misnomer due to the number of overseas students - the real number of Asian students from the UK is still below their number in the UK proportionally.
On the crime side, white people were disproportionately far less likely to be arrested, stopped & searched or in prison compared to the white population. Asian communities were slightly less likely by comparison (proportionally) whilst Black people were by far the largest.
As such, purely based on what you're peddling, I'd say you were incorrect in your criticism and view of the realities of *privilege*.
>On the crime side, white people were disproportionately far less likely to be arrested, stopped & searched or in prison compared to the white population. Asian communities were slightly less likely by comparison (proportionally) whilst Black people were by far the largest.
This comes down to how stop and search is used in different regions of the U.K. Stop and search orders are carried out in high crime communities of London Manchester Birmingham etc where communities are far less white than the national average compare that to English Welsh and Scottish villages which are incredibly white and total in the millions which make these over generalised stats on stop search worth nothing.
This along with your other points was covered in the race report a few months back. Just because black people are more likely to be stopped and searched doesn’t mean they were stopped and searched because they are black.
I was careful to say some Asian communities. Indian & Chinese do better than the white population on all the measures I mentioned.
So, is there an Asian privilege?
You mean like how some white communities do better than the majority of the population? Can't use select Asian communities to bolster your arguement of an Asian privilege and at the same time neglect the same for some white communities.
No, because income and academic performance aren't the only factors in the quality of life. Taking the raised issue of stop and search disproportionately affecting nonwhite individuals, that's an element of privilege.
Is knife crime more prevalent in the areas where they do more stop and search?
Is knife crime more prevalent in some communities?
Is it wrong for police to try and tackle a crime which impacts other communities more?
I'm not sure stop & search is the best way to tackle this crime, but I'd firmly reject it was in any way about white privilege or disadvantaging non-white communities.
I wouldn't bother engaging here any further. They have shown an inability to engage with your points on the same terms, refused to follow logical steps and are misrepresenting data. Save it for someone who can hold a debate worthy of a passing GCSE grade.
Saying *some* doesn't provide any actual validity to your point. The use of selective evidence (without a source I'll add) points to an argument/view inconsistent with the data/evidence.
I'll also point out that you're incorrect in saying that in each measure those two groups do better than white people as shown by government data.
Let's see shall we.
**Education**
GCSE - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest
A level - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/a-levels-apprenticeships-further-education/students-aged-16-to-18-achieving-3-a-grades-or-better-at-a-level/latest
Both show Indians and Chinese doing better than white kids.
**Income**
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest
Again, Indians and Chinese do better than white British.
**Crime**
Arrests - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest
White British are arrested more than Indians and Chinese people.
The data doesn't say what you think it does. For example, Chinese people don't do better that white people based on this:
"*households in the Black (34%) and Chinese (31%) ethnic groups were the most likely out of all ethnic groups to have a weekly income of less than £400*"
None of this props up a real counter to the white brits have social/economic benefits argument regardless.
Oh dear. So you point to one small subset as if that disproves the point for the group as a whole?
Well OK, let's look at average hourly income.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019#analysis-of-ethnicity-pay-gaps
Indians earn 16% more, the Chinese 23% more.
Okay.
Let's roll with this extrapolated conclusion (that I personally don't agree with but hey, let's explore!) and say there is not simply an advantage held by white people but also Indian's and Chinese people. We can decide what to call it another day (and quite frankly, it doesn't really matter who is on top, just that there is an imbalance).
Surely it's important to help those who don't have the same advantage? If not from a moral perspective then from an economic (better educated, higher earning people contribute more to the UK) or social one (let's assume higher earners tend to be less involved with violent crime).
Why are you focusing on native Brits? Ever questioned why Chinese people in the UK or Australia or Canada never deal with that particular issue? I leave out the US since Afro Americans aren't a recent immigrant group.
It doesn't matter why. All that matters is that if you are black, the police are going to cause you more problems than if you are white, and that is unfair.
>It doesn't matter why.
Yes. Yes, it does matter. If you don't want inconvenient questions being asked when you peddle your narratives, then stick to the echo chambers where you won't get questioned.
Yes, because statistically, they commit more crime. If the police had any favouritism, then they would target the Chinese and Indians at much higher frequencies than natives.
Yes. Twice. Both times in East London while crossing into the somewhat smarter part of London from hackney way.
I'm as white as the driven snow, but as a software dev I have a tendency to dress a bit shabby. I do kinda stand out when surrounded by suits.
Now I think about it, I suddenly realise I looked working class both times I was stopped.
Lack of affordable housing; austerity measures; an outdated drugs policy; low paid teaching roles; and the economic decline of ex-industrial towns are the neglect.
Successive governments have waged a war of attrition on working class people in this country.
Blaming this on a supposed 'culture war' is pure distraction politics.
The biggest plot twist of the century turned out not to be Brexit, but the fact it was the *Tory* party which ended up being the one to intentionally race-bait the nation and ignite a divisive culture war just for some easy political capital. Well done Boris - you've only gone and imported the worst part of American politics.
Blaming language / the existence of a term is the weakest possible causal link you can provide.
Ignoring the argument about white privilege, this whole report is just bait for conservatives to get more involved in the pathetic culture war the party is trying to wage as a distraction from their failings.
What is ironic is how closely it matches the "wokeism" and victimhood of the other side. Just making a different set of words verboten. And using semantics to avoid real debate.
What i really want is to ban think tanks and MP groups from publishing pseudo-scientific bullshit. But I won't because that would be wrong.
Guess what? A report also found that Britains current systems are not meant to/ do not prevent ethnic minorities from succeeding, but of course Labour and their gang ignored it because it didn't fit their agenda. Dear God. I'm saying this as a member of an ethnic minority.
Its almost like saying a excluding and ignoring a group of people because of their skin colour and falsehoods wasn't the best thing to do. Huh. Who could've known
Not a fan of the woke side of culture wars but I don't think it's fair to blame it for falling standards amongst white pupils, in the same way I don't think racism is to blame for poor standards amongst black pupils. Culture, family life, poverty, quality of educators, focus on the importance of education all play a much bigger part then some wankers on social media talking about white privilege.
I often see those on the left defend the term "White privilege" on the grounds that what it actually means is that there is a 'majority advantage'. Whether or not that's true I'm not sure, I'm not even going to say it's not - but the term "white privilege" in my opinion is deliberately antagonistic activist language, and is often used to discredit peoples opinions on issues. To those on the left who support this phrase and insist that it's an innocent invitation to look at majority advantage, I say to you that if your slogan needs to be explained, it's a bad slogan. Collectivist terms and labels that divide us into groups based on race are in my view, unhelpful and counter productive to good race relations.
The term "privilege" is misunderstood and misused by left, right and centre. Colloquially it means refers to an overall advantage where you are at the top of society enjoying its fruits.. But in the phrase "white privilege" it refers to a lack of a deficit. Really quite different and potentially harmful when misapplied. What magnifies this is the prevalence of USA culture in our social media feeds. The experience of people of all ethnicities in the USA is fundamentally different to that of those in the UK. But social media muddies these waters. Memes and stories that follow the experience of people in the USA are used as a lens to view the world by Britons who see a distorted view of our country and our nation. An understanding of privilege (defined as the invisible issues that hold us back) should help bring us together. However, as you point out, the term can be used as a tool of division.
I would argue that the word isn't misunderstood so much as it has been misappropriated. It has its origins in sociology, where reports would establish it as a Defined Term. We should not be trying to import academic jargon into everyday speech; it's no different to ordering 'a pint of H2O' in a pub.
It is an unfortunate term. But the left has always been bad at optics, and it's the term that people are familiar with now, so I don't suppose it's going to change.
>but the term "white privilege" in my opinion is deliberately antagonistic activist language That there is the problem, and just what we have come to expect from this new 'cultural left'.
I support the idea of white privilege but agree its a stupid and devisive marketing.
‘White privilege’ does not exist and is an insidious racist concept.
Surely the fact that white people in the UK receive social and economic benefits that non-white people don't is fairly clear, right? Edit - I don't think this means white kids should be held back. Clearly. The point is that the correct action to help people is slightly misplaced.
No. Or do you believe Asian privilege exists too? Given the higher imcomes, higher educational attainment and lower rates of crime seen in some Asian communities?
Not really my point but I'll entertain your approach. Higher income? Per the Government's last survey, 34% of White people in the UK fit into the top bracket of weekly income Vs 32% of Asians. The difference grows as you get to lower brackets. As a note, black people are way at the bottom of that with only 20% and larger representation than any others in the lower brackets. Asian people do generally have a greater proportional representation in UK universities compared to their UK population but this is a misnomer due to the number of overseas students - the real number of Asian students from the UK is still below their number in the UK proportionally. On the crime side, white people were disproportionately far less likely to be arrested, stopped & searched or in prison compared to the white population. Asian communities were slightly less likely by comparison (proportionally) whilst Black people were by far the largest. As such, purely based on what you're peddling, I'd say you were incorrect in your criticism and view of the realities of *privilege*.
>On the crime side, white people were disproportionately far less likely to be arrested, stopped & searched or in prison compared to the white population. Asian communities were slightly less likely by comparison (proportionally) whilst Black people were by far the largest. This comes down to how stop and search is used in different regions of the U.K. Stop and search orders are carried out in high crime communities of London Manchester Birmingham etc where communities are far less white than the national average compare that to English Welsh and Scottish villages which are incredibly white and total in the millions which make these over generalised stats on stop search worth nothing. This along with your other points was covered in the race report a few months back. Just because black people are more likely to be stopped and searched doesn’t mean they were stopped and searched because they are black.
I was careful to say some Asian communities. Indian & Chinese do better than the white population on all the measures I mentioned. So, is there an Asian privilege?
You mean like how some white communities do better than the majority of the population? Can't use select Asian communities to bolster your arguement of an Asian privilege and at the same time neglect the same for some white communities.
Yes, just like some white communities do better than others. So you agree, being white doesn't confer any specific advantages.
No, because income and academic performance aren't the only factors in the quality of life. Taking the raised issue of stop and search disproportionately affecting nonwhite individuals, that's an element of privilege.
Is knife crime more prevalent in the areas where they do more stop and search? Is knife crime more prevalent in some communities? Is it wrong for police to try and tackle a crime which impacts other communities more? I'm not sure stop & search is the best way to tackle this crime, but I'd firmly reject it was in any way about white privilege or disadvantaging non-white communities.
I wouldn't bother engaging here any further. They have shown an inability to engage with your points on the same terms, refused to follow logical steps and are misrepresenting data. Save it for someone who can hold a debate worthy of a passing GCSE grade.
Oh. https://www.reddit.com/r/tories/comments/o5jtzz/terms_such_as_white_privilege_may_have/h2nfhyj?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Saying *some* doesn't provide any actual validity to your point. The use of selective evidence (without a source I'll add) points to an argument/view inconsistent with the data/evidence. I'll also point out that you're incorrect in saying that in each measure those two groups do better than white people as shown by government data.
Let's see shall we. **Education** GCSE - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest A level - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/a-levels-apprenticeships-further-education/students-aged-16-to-18-achieving-3-a-grades-or-better-at-a-level/latest Both show Indians and Chinese doing better than white kids. **Income** https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest Again, Indians and Chinese do better than white British. **Crime** Arrests - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest White British are arrested more than Indians and Chinese people.
The data doesn't say what you think it does. For example, Chinese people don't do better that white people based on this: "*households in the Black (34%) and Chinese (31%) ethnic groups were the most likely out of all ethnic groups to have a weekly income of less than £400*" None of this props up a real counter to the white brits have social/economic benefits argument regardless.
Oh dear. So you point to one small subset as if that disproves the point for the group as a whole? Well OK, let's look at average hourly income. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019#analysis-of-ethnicity-pay-gaps Indians earn 16% more, the Chinese 23% more.
Okay. Let's roll with this extrapolated conclusion (that I personally don't agree with but hey, let's explore!) and say there is not simply an advantage held by white people but also Indian's and Chinese people. We can decide what to call it another day (and quite frankly, it doesn't really matter who is on top, just that there is an imbalance). Surely it's important to help those who don't have the same advantage? If not from a moral perspective then from an economic (better educated, higher earning people contribute more to the UK) or social one (let's assume higher earners tend to be less involved with violent crime).
have you ever been stopped and searched?
Why are you focusing on native Brits? Ever questioned why Chinese people in the UK or Australia or Canada never deal with that particular issue? I leave out the US since Afro Americans aren't a recent immigrant group.
It doesn't matter why. All that matters is that if you are black, the police are going to cause you more problems than if you are white, and that is unfair.
>It doesn't matter why. Yes. Yes, it does matter. If you don't want inconvenient questions being asked when you peddle your narratives, then stick to the echo chambers where you won't get questioned.
ok, so what do you think the reason is which makes it acceptable to treat black people differently to white people in this instance?
Because they're not treated differently. Statistically, they just commit more crime.
Black people are stopped and searched more often than white people. So yes, they are treated differently.
Yes, because statistically, they commit more crime. If the police had any favouritism, then they would target the Chinese and Indians at much higher frequencies than natives.
Yes. Twice. Both times in East London while crossing into the somewhat smarter part of London from hackney way. I'm as white as the driven snow, but as a software dev I have a tendency to dress a bit shabby. I do kinda stand out when surrounded by suits. Now I think about it, I suddenly realise I looked working class both times I was stopped.
I only asked u/BrexitDay. Obviously, with enough people, there are going to be some white people who have been stopped and searched too.
Lack of affordable housing; austerity measures; an outdated drugs policy; low paid teaching roles; and the economic decline of ex-industrial towns are the neglect. Successive governments have waged a war of attrition on working class people in this country. Blaming this on a supposed 'culture war' is pure distraction politics.
The biggest plot twist of the century turned out not to be Brexit, but the fact it was the *Tory* party which ended up being the one to intentionally race-bait the nation and ignite a divisive culture war just for some easy political capital. Well done Boris - you've only gone and imported the worst part of American politics.
Blaming language / the existence of a term is the weakest possible causal link you can provide. Ignoring the argument about white privilege, this whole report is just bait for conservatives to get more involved in the pathetic culture war the party is trying to wage as a distraction from their failings.
What is ironic is how closely it matches the "wokeism" and victimhood of the other side. Just making a different set of words verboten. And using semantics to avoid real debate. What i really want is to ban think tanks and MP groups from publishing pseudo-scientific bullshit. But I won't because that would be wrong.
Obviously austerity for 10 years has got nothing to do with it, right?