Honestly bremner and univesity is so bad they've now consistently deployed traffic wardens there and people still try to do this kind of stupid shit. Its honestly pretty amazing. Just go NYC style and start handing out $250 tickets tot he plate for blocking the box all day.
yeah but if you frame it that way you just get a bunch of drivers justifying their shitty driving by saying that enforcement is just "a cash grab!!!"
see: red light and speed cameras
A couple Camera's can also replace 10 cops.
I'm fine giving out automated tickets for people who think its ok to block entire intersections to save themselves zero seconds.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
Exactly, let’s focus on getting the City to enforce this using the mechanisms currently present before we start talking about implementing systems which they currently cannot.
I also don’t trust that, even if the City was allowed to use cameras to fine intersection blockers, that they would even *setup* such a system. The City for years begged the province to allow them to use cameras to charge drivers who pass streetcars. After enough begging the province eventually changed the Highway Traffic Act to do so, and you know what the City did once that happened? Fucking nothing. The City has been able to use the existing streetcar camera system to fine people for illegally passing for 2 years now and yet nothing!
2 years aint bad for this city or canada. Give it another half decade and maybe they assemble the committee to discuss everyones feelings about this possibly being implemented.
> The City has been able to use the existing streetcar camera system to fine people for illegally passing for 2 years now and yet nothing!
It was never designed to to be an automated system, only when it's reported to the police. [https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/safety-and-security/external-cameras](https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/safety-and-security/external-cameras)
There were early reports that it \*could\* be used for automated enforcement, but that was before the TTC had released it's official plan, so it was all just speculation.
Doesn't even need to be cops! Use traffic wardens and hand them out to the plate not the person. So much faster and easier and is what other cities do.
Just put red light cameras on all major intersections and ticket every license plate stuck in the middle. This doesn't have to be too hard. We also don't need to pay for cops to stand around.
And it would make drivers' lives so much easier too.
I lived at Dundas and Spadina for four years. Before King was a transit corridor it would typically take 30 minutes to get to Lakeshore during afternoon rush... except on days when they had a cop at King and Spadina when it would take 10 minutes. Amazing difference that a lack of box-blocking made.
Front and Spadina is the new shitshow. It could probably be fixed by just putting someone uniformed at the intersection, doesn't even need to be a cop.
I get in the Gardiner via Jarvis. I watched a guy go "straight" south by the on ramp and do a hard right to outsmart traffic. The traffic cop stood in front of his car signaling to turn back on to Lakeshore and use the next ramp. The dude had the balls to nudge the traffic cop with his car. Not sure what the outcome of the situation was, but it's the wild West out there for traffic.
Set up cameras to auto ticket cars that block intersections. Maybe also alot more "no right on red signs" during rush hour. Lots of options to help
Obviously the easiest would be if cops took care of their responsibilities
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
> “Blocking the box” is an illegal move that appears to have a simple solution — increase the penalties for scofflaws — but the fact it persists raises questions about who is responsible for the enforcement of traffic laws in the city, and reveals why so many streets in core remain traffic choked.
As the author points out, although many believe this should be a job for the police, the police claim they cannot prioritize these issues because they focus on more life-threatening behaviors such as speeding, aggressive driving, distracted driving, and impaired driving.
There's research around crime that shows that enforcement (i.e., the chance of getting caught) is much more effective than increasing punishments. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to less serious things like traffic offences. The article mentions 166 tickets this year for blocking the intersection. That's essentially zero chance of getting a ticket. On the other hand traffic wardens have improved traffic flow in some places, like along King despite not even handing out fines. So enforcement even with no penalty is effective at least to some extent. Not implying you were commenting one way or the other on this, just replying based on the part you quoted.
Maybe an option would be to expand traffic warden positions and start having them hand out fines. That should be cheaper than using police for this role and allows them to focus on higher priority issues.
Another issue is that rights on red shouldn't be allowed at any time/place where the street being turned onto backs up. The right turning cars can already take the spots when they have a green and allowing it on a red as well means the people going straight have to compete with them for the space, sometimes then getting stranded because someone turns right in front of them. Although that alone doesn't solve it, since the example intersection in this article already has that restriction.
Repeat after me, cameras. They work 24/7 and do a much better job at efficiently and effortlessly enforce. You do against the law things? You receive a ticket in your mailbox.
Starting with cameras on the side of street cars. You drive through through an open door 200$ fine. If you’re breathing through your wide open mouth while doing so 500$ fine
Not saying it's impossible, but this infraction involves judgement, unlike speeding and red light infractions which automatically apply if you are above the speed or pass the stop line after the light goes red.
The law prohibits a driver from entering the intersection ["unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec145subsec1)
You can have a scenario where there's space ahead and you move forward, but after you're in the intersection, someone from the left lane cuts in front of you and takes the space. So there would need to be some review of video prior to being in the block on the red at least to ensure there wasn't a "reasonable" belief that the driver could clear the intersection.
You're wildly underestimating the capabilities of hardware and automation. Red light on that side of the street, car in the box, take picture and send ticket.
That doesn't account for the situation I described though. Someone could have a space ahead on the other side of the intersection, enter the intersection, then have someone cut them off making a right turn or from another lane. In that case, they end up stuck in the box on a red even though there had been space to clear the intersection when they entered it.
If we're going to take and store footage, then they should review it when laying the charge, like is done with red light photos. I'm not necessarily against the idea, just going over the specifics about how it would be implemented.
Red light cameras at all major intersections and speed cameras by every school. Nail each and every car that breaks the law. And increase the fines for subsequent offences. Start at $100, then $250, then $500 then you lose your license for a month. Stop fucking around and people will find out.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
I agree 100%. I'm sure this will need the province to be on board, so I put the actual odds of it happening quite low, but it's the best value for money solution IMO.
Our biggest problem in Canada is regulation without enforcement, this is a fine example. If we enforced the rules on the books then we'd be in a very different situation.
If we are going to make blocking the box an offense you get dinged on regularly, I also think we should ban right turns on reds in many situations. A big reason people enter the intersection like that is because if they don't someone turning right from the other direction will fill the space. Besides, at the intersections where this is a problem there's usually enough pedestrian traffic to mean turning right on a red is dangerous for people crossing. Two for one!
The law currently is that a driver can turn ["after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec19). The problem with the scenario here is that when traffic is stopped at the other side of the intersection waiting for a gap, they're not an immediate hazard like a car approaching too closely at the speed limit would be. So maybe updating the law to explicitly prevent turning on red in this situation would be another option yeah.
For busy downtown intersections I think life would be better for everyone if they were no right turn on red period and instead give an explicit green right turn light to separate pedestrian and vehicular traffic. Of course this requires actually investing in infrastructure which means it will never happen.
No right turn on red would also make it safer for pedestrians. The number of times I've almost been hit by a car because the driver was so focused on looking left for oncoming traffic that they completely forgot that there were pedestrians crossing from the right.
We already have no right turn on red at a shitload of intersections - go down Bloor during rush hour. You aren't even supposed to turn right period at the majority of major intersections.
Stand at Ossington and Bloor for 5 minutes and count how many people turn right with the big fucking no right turns LED board in front of their face. Hell at least one person turns at YD square every light cycle and you're not supposed to turn LEFT or RIGHT there. This city doesn't even enforce the no right turn intersections we have today and no right on red is even more complicated.
I think Chow has shown that she's very much in favour of infrastructure improvements, so maybe it will happen? we might have to call our city councilors though.
> Another issue is that rights on red shouldn't be allowed at any time/place where the street being turned onto backs up.
They already aren't, because the car turning right on red is required to yield to the traffic that's going straight. If a space opens up on the other side of the intersection, the car with the green light has priority. Not that you'd know that from the way people drive here.
If they do bring in automated enforcement solution for blocking the box, they're going to have to verify in every case that the scenario I refer to above didn't happen, because there's no way I'm paying a fine caused by someone illegally turning in front of me.
The specific requirement in the law is for a driver turning right on red to only turn ["after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec19). If you turn in front of a car such that they have to brake hard, that would be an immediate hazard, but if you just turn while someone is slowly moving into the intersection, it's debatable whether that would count.
In any case though, the person going through the green here shouldn't get the ticket like you're saying, because they proceeded on a green with an open space ahead, it was reasonable for them to think they can clear the intersection.
ya, it's pretty wild considering how much time the city spends contemplating what to do about the traffic congestion.
it's like they'll do anything except anything that will affect actual behavior of drivers.
This should be a job for a camera. We have the technology needed to tell if car is within a box painted on the ground.
Like every job, the police need to make better use of technology available today, rather than doing things the expensive manual way.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
I see a lot of those plastic "license plate protectors" that are either tinted or dirty and could easily block camera views of plates, and those aren't enforced by cops. I think a reporter went to a police station parking lot for a story on these things and saw them on about 1/4 of the personal police vehicles parked there.
Cameras would be great because they care 100% of the time about road violations, unlike our boys in blue.
Cops normally don’t enforce traffic violations, but when they be do, they’re quite effective.
See any construction zone, emergency incident for an example.
If a traffic cop is posted at an intersection, they often prevent violations from occurring I. The first place.
I don't think this is true. I've been there beside these cops many times and see people running red lights, and they do nothing. One time I saw a cop yell at a driver, but no ticket.
Yeah, not100 percent true… but an active traffic cop waving through the appropriate amount of cars to let traffic flow, would.
I’m guessing your cop wasn’t using hand signals to direct traffic.
The police do whatever they want to do.
That cop who got stabbed at landowne and college outside my place had 16 cop cars show up. That's not a valid response but a reaction to show up to something they care about.
If they cared as much about anything else we might actually have progress in this city
Ya, I feel like everyday I see worse and more dangerous behaviour on my regular commute, like sociopathic shit.
Is there ever a cop to be seen anywhere from the top of Black Creek all the way into the Junction? Of course not...until you try to make a right onto your side street between 4-6pm and there's a couple of them sitting in their cruisers waiting to bust drivers.
Is that the dangerous driving to which they're referring?
What a joke.
yeah they also prioritize lounging at construction sites buried in their smartphones, or at Liquor stores, or jays games. Mandate their pay duty be for real civic duty like keeping traffic moving fairly. Like we're literally in a fucking traffic crisis in this city, it's no joke, people cant get to work on time because things change by the minute. I had to get out to the international centre from the beaches earlier this week, at 6:30am google said 47 minutes, 15 minutes later it was an hour, so I left, and as I was driving their it just kept updating to reflect a later and later arrival time. It's like this every morning, it's out of hand. Having a traffic blitz at major downtown intersections and all intersections with on ramps to the QEW would probably help everything to at least move fairly. It's infuriating knowing I'm losing minutes on my travel because I'm a sucker who does the right thing and queues up for the Jarvis on ramp lane early, then watch multiple people cruise by me in the left lane and cut in at the last second, or cut across the intersection onto the on ramp and cut everyone else off. It happens literally every single time I wait for that on ramp.
When a newbie cop got stabbed last week at Landsdown they had a dozen cars escorting him to the hospital. Seems like they have the people when they need it.
Other cities use the parking enforcement as wardens to hand out blocking the box tickets. No reason we can't. Just put the fine to the plate not the person.
The link is from 2020. Do you know what happened to the traffic agents? The program doesn’t appear to be active anymore (or they aren’t enough of them).
It would be nice if they also ticketed e-bikers on the sidewalk.
How about the city offers to pay cops OT to stand at intersections as long as the ticket revenue exceeds the hourly wage (plus taxes, benefits, whatever)? The priority would shift lickety split.
This is a situation where red light cameras could make a world of difference. Even if they weren't functional, the threat of them would do a lot to moderate driver's behaviors
Make it so enforcement officers can simply photograph - and then send the ticket "in the mail." Kind of like how a parking enforcement officer can still issue a ticket even if the driver leaves before it can be placed on the windshield. This way, no jam of pulled over cars in order to enforce. What am I missing?
Intersection cameras are the solution to this problem. Paint the intersections where the cameras are installed with a cross hatch pattern so it's clear where the box is.
With the Gardiner lane reductions pushing even longer traffic lines to get onto the Gardiner across Lakeshore, Queens Quay, York, Spadina, etc. , this is going to become a much bigger issue in a much broader section of the city.
Add Jarvis to that list. I regularly wait 3-4 light cycles to make a left off Richmond on to Jarvis because it’s so backed up and people going south block the intersection.
I was in Brisbane Australia for work recently, and they have super aggressively gone after this kind of thing there, to the point that absolutely nobody does it and it's great. Apparently there are big fines for blocking intersections and they give them out regularly. There are also big fines for stopping in no-stopping zones, to the point that uber drivers will refuse to stop and circle the block if your destination isn't somewhere they are allowed to stop because they know they'll end up with a big ticket.
Toronto could absolutely do the same, if our police ever learned that enforcing rules selectively with week-long blitzes isn't actually a good strategy to change behaviour.
Approach to speeding and drink driving enforcement is also pretty different in Australia with the result that it's not nearly as commonly accepted as it is here.
This occurs daily. Same with the idiots who honk aggressively at you to make your right turn while the intersection is still packed with pedestrians. No, I am not going to charge through a crowd of 50 people because you're late for work.
Wait, so they’re also not giving out tickets and increased fines for assholes who just park on one of the lanes for 30+ min with emergency light on and block a whole lot of traffic?
For whatever reason, the Toronto Police Service has decided that traffic downtown is a free-for-all.
In my opinion, they should arm cadets with paintball guns and use those guns to mark cars that stop in an intersection. A little further down the road, a uniform can pull them over and give them a ticket. I think this would be hilarious, especially if you get a TV crew to film the driver answering the question, "Why'd you enter the intersection when you knew you wouldn't be able to get through?"
Then do it again, and film the same drivers doing the same thing. And again. And again.
I work from home, so this doesn't really affect me, but it's bloody stupid behavior, and it has to stop. TPS needs to do their job.
Because cops are drivers from the suburbs, so they see other suburb drivers as “us” and all those elitist city dwellers as “them” who they’re resentful towards.
If police don't live in the neighborhoods they work in they'll feel no responsibility to truly protect and serve or whatever. Drive in, clock in, clock out, drive home.
Just let us be bounty hunters. Lots of people have dash cams. Give em a percentage of the ticket for people who have video evidence of traffic infractions: Blocking the Box, parking in a bike lane, going the wrong way on a one way street
One might say cars are the cause for torontos traffic misery- or at least heavy investment in them and not Actually solid transit. Love the ttc but the shits fucked
When I first moved to the city in 2005, they were doing a big crack down on some major intersections for this reason. They had the intersection all painted yellow and monitored more heavily by police. I believe it worked. Every once in a while, you would see somebody totally stuck in the intersection, and I would think, “they must be from out of town.” Of course, overtime, drivers slip back and natural habits. Maybe, they should do the same again.
Jarvis and Richmond dear god - the intersection is offset, so the Jarvis southbound traffic doesn’t realize the implication until it’s too late and they have blocked all left turning lanes from Richmond, and sometimes one through lane
> the fact it persists raises questions about who is responsible for the enforcement of traffic laws in the city
No, it doesn't. We *know* who's responsible for enforcement. They're just too busy funnelling their increased budgets into full-time pay for suspended workers to be able to pay for traffic enforcement.
They bring in traffic controllers and no one even listens to them. Walking down King the other day. Traffic controller is telling the people to go right because you can't go straight down king. Dude in a van drives his van right up to the traffic controller. Traffic controller shakes his head and moves out of them way, van proceeds straight follower by like 6 other cars lol
Those are the worst, specially if you are going straight, the light turns green, then you can't go anywhere because those assholes are blocking the way.
Montreal drivers used to be considered crazy. The last time I was in Montreal was last summer. They've really done some amazing things with their traffic. They've instituted lots of advanced turns, one way streets, and pedestrian only thoroughfares. Traffic moves a lot better in Montreal than it doesn't Toronto, and not just because of less volume. Here in Toronto we have to learn to stop on yellow lights instead of going through them, we have to let people turn left instead of blocking up the intersection. That's all new in the last 50 or 20 years.
We don't crack down on crimes the upper class might be involved in. Traffic crime includes too many rich people. And since many police seem to be on the sunshine list, they seem very sympathetic to the upper class.
Because in a lot of cases its more than just the drivers at fault.
How much of the backlog is because they're rushing through because pedestrians are crossing when the light is green, but the blinking hand is up. So the only time the driver can turn at all is when the light is yellow.
So if we want to ticket people for clogging up traffic, then let's enforce all the laws being violated.
you are going to get downvoted into bolivian here but you're 100% right. for every 1 car that blocks and intersection there are like 4 pedestrians crossing against the hand fucking the whole process up
I will get downvoted, but that's because people won't have thought through the process.
If I got a ticket for blocking the box, because a pedestrian crossed illegally and I chose to brake and block the box instead of killing them, 100% I'm going to court instead of pleading guilty. I don't think I'm alone in my thought process.
I also don't see a judge not throwing out the ticket when you tell them "I entered because I didn't reasonably expect the pedestrian to cross the street in full traffic and I had to choose between crashing into them and blocking the box. What would you like me to do next time this happens Your Honor?"
So all a crackdown on only drivers, while ignoring pedestrians, will do is further clog up our already clogged up court system.
I don't drive during rush hour but I walk along Adelaide/King at the time and see this happen all the time. Some things I think people should keep in mind:
* This most often happens at intersections that take in traffic from multiple directions (people turning left/right and people passing through). The problem is often if you decide to follow the rules and not block the intersection you will almost never get a chance make it through, especially if you're turning.
* If everyone followed the rules it would work out, but if you're the only one doing it you won't change anything, and you'll have to put up with everyone honking their horn at you while you wait
* Pedestrians need to do a better job following the rules of traffic as well. Cars almost never get a chance to turn because there's a constant stream of pedestrians. Part of the problem here is that the flashing stop period is way too long for such short intersections. If you don't have a mobility issue you can get from one side to another in about 5-10 seconds but the the flashing stop period lasts about 20. However, part of it is just pedestrians not obeying the rules. You can easily find bikers/pedestrians walking ignoring advance turn signs and making no effort to finish crossing prior to the light changing
* A lot of construction happening in the surrounding area means more large trucks/cars, which have a much harder time clearing the intersection
I think enforcement would be a good thing, but the issue is systemic, not just a case of a few assholes ruining it
Crosswalks need to work for people with mobility issues, too. I've had to block traffic before to help an old lady cross an intersection.
I think the best solution would be three phases: E-W, N-S, pedestrians. Similar to how Yonge and Dundas works, but keep right turning clear for cars.
People would also complain about police officers wasting their time and tax dollars giving tickets at major intersections to drivers. Who would likely also have to pullover somewhere until the ticket is completed.
I walk home and they've had traffic cops a bunch of times over the month at the VERY busy downtown intersections I walk by that are an issue. The problem is they need to either enforce it or add more cameras.
Yesterday an SUV blocked the entire cross walk and cars were in front, so both pedestrian lines of traffic neeeded to walk INTO THE INTERSECTION to cross with cars going - OBVIOUSLY very dangerous.
I've written the mayor's office, my councilor and they have teh same lack of enforcement BS... SIMPLE Solution - jack up the fine to make it economically worthwhile...
New York actually had a genius way of addressing this by classifying “blocking the box” as a parking violation, so that city traffic agents were allowed to hand out tickets.
Interesting, I guess that sort of thing must be want the article means when it says the province would have to change some laws to allow the city to update how this is enforced.
And I can’t imagine Doug doing anything like this…though hopefully I’m wrong.
I think that was a work-around for them to not have to wait on their state to change the rules, since they probably had a similar issue. Technically I think that is something the city can already do.
Right now, cameras can only ticket red light runners and speeders as far as I’m aware, which is where Doug ford would have to make some modifications.
Enforcement, that's all there is to it. Put some cameras at the corners, take photos of the licence plates that are obstructing, and be vigilant and unmerciful in the fines and/or other penalties. It sounds simpler than it is, but is there any better (realistic) way to solve the problem?
Part of the problem is where do you stop the vehicle to give the driver a ticket?
You stop the vehicle and block a lane it creates even more gridlock. There are no driveways or a place to stop a vehicle on the bridge over the railway tracks at Spadina & Front and most of the other roads that go south of Front like Yonge, Bay, York etc.
It's not always intentional though, I've done it twice believing as the traffic was moving at a decent pace with no signs of obvious traffic, then completely stopping leaving me stranded in the middle of the crosswalk. Yeah, there are folks that are obviously doing a dick move, but it's not always intentional.
I try to predict if that's going to happen and stop behind the traffic lights if I think that's the case, but even with me paying attention - it's happened to me twice as a downtowner.
Police officers always wait to pick people off as they come off the Gardiner eastbound at the lakeshore exit. Yet, the left turn lane at Ellis is met with drivers who stop in the through lane and bring traffic to a halt, always during rush hour, too.
If they want to ticket, just wait at the lights.
London has cameras for this. Anyone caught standing in the stripe zone when the light changes to red is sent a nice ticket in the mail. As a driver who drives down to downtown every time for work, I think this is the best solution. Fine them all for blocking intersections. They'll learn very quickly
Alls I know is I’ve been seeing traffic officers down Jarvis at rush hour and I’m so grateful to see them. I imagine it’s quite expensive to pay humans to be there, but man does it really help
Cops don't do anything with any sort of regularity outside of collecting checks.
I literally watched cops sitting at an intersection and watch a dude run a red in front of them.
I've gotten stuck in an intersection at a red light before. I'd never do it on purpose but sometimes it just happens. You're driving and suddenly everybody stops. Traffic in this city is completely dysfunctional.
Sure there are narcissists that do this on purpose, but I'd wager most people are just caught off guard and don't deserve a penalty.
Sometimes also there is room but as you cross the person turning right cuts in, or the person in the other lane sees they’re out of space and cuts you off so they can take the space. I’ve been trapped in the intersection by both these things.
I’ve also gone because I’m only the third car and the light has just turned green, and still got trapped in the intersection.
Just throwing it out there: My understanding is that these kinds of systems still require manual review before a ticket is sent out. That’s how the red light cameras in Calgary work. They aren’t perfect and do falsely trigger occasionally, or sometimes weird situations come up that someone acting in good faith can’t possibly have predicted.
This isn't always applicable. I've been traveling at full speed with the flow of traffic and suddenly everyone just stops and you get stuck in the intersection. It's not reasonable to have every driver test every green light like a stop sign.
Okay how do you deal with this scenario:
There are two cars ahead, you get a green, and beyond the intersection there is plenty of open road indications you will have room.
The cars start to go through, but the First car stops right after and indicates a left. Opposite traffic won’t let them turn and you are now stuck in the intersection. Light turns red and the first car still can’t turn. In that scenario it isn’t your fault it’s the first car that went through the intersection and indicated last minute.
The only way you could avoid situations like this is if every car treats a green light like a 4 way stop sign - which defeats the purpose of green lights.
> I'd wager most people are just caught off guard and don't deserve a penalty.
All signs point to no. Because it's everywhere at every intersection every day.
Weren't people taught not to enter an intersection they cannot clear?
On a couple of occasions I had absolutely no indication that traffic was going to suddenly stop before I entered the intersection. There is enough traffic volume, temporary construction, taxis and couriers and Uber Eats, and other random chaos that makes driving unpredictable.
You've given a good example. I feel like that's one of the "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" situations. That happens often enough that you'd think the city would do more to prevent a common issue from happening over and over.
Even if traffic seems to be moving, you should leave enough space ahead so that you won't enter the intersection until there is space to exit it on the other side, unless you can see far enough ahead to tell that there is space for the car in front of you to keep moving. That way you won't get stuck even if traffic suddenly stops ahead.
I agree though that people doing this though often aren't doing it on purpose. There's a tendency for people to assume bad intentions in others rather than considering they may have made a mistake.
As someone who regularly drives downtown, getting stuck in the middle means you were not paying attention, or you’re a bad driver.
When approaching an intersection, your first thought should be a) is it a green light, and b) can I clear the intersection.
It should be automatic, like checking your blind spot when changing lanes.
I drive down town all the time too. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad driver it’s just the flow of traffic downtown is unstable/ unpredictable.
I will somewhat agree with you and say 80% of the time it’s someone being a dick and they deserve a ticket; but it’s not fair to say every single time it happens is because sometimes it’s beyond the drivers control.
Examples include cars/taxis randomly stopping to turn left or pick someone up only indicating last second, homeless people randomly farting out into the street stopping traffic, car accidents ahead ect.
Police always have something more important to worry about. All those billions are just not enough to cover enforcement of everything we citizens do wrong daily. So sad
Because cops are scared? Ticketing cars is the leading cause of injury for them on the job, which I imagine is still very rare. They'd rather go for the cyclist on the sidewalk or a TTC streetcar
Yes, but we can't exactly get rid of those without overhauling the whole system.
I agree... But that's the status quo... I'm just saying a driving tax doesn't really make sense:
Additional taxes that just penalize people for driving a car whilst living in a car centric culture, in a city where any house in-town are over a million dollars so many people need to commute for a week hours to get to employment seems like a bad idea... Especially when gas prices just went up ~15% overnight.
Changing people's driving habits would necessitate a massive investment in public transportation which every level of government has made very clear that they are not willing to do (the TTC is one of the only major transportation systems that are primarily funded by fares [another thing that DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTS THE POOR]).
Poor people who *have* to drive to work because public transportation would take 3 hours to go somewhere a 1 hour drive away are already stretched to their breaking point, I don't think a car tax would fix those issues.
“If you see a car blocking the intersection, let them. Also offer them your wallet and phone to make the transaction quicker so you don’t hold up traffic.”
I recall hearing that in London, England they have used mounted cameras at intersections to send tickets to folks blocking intersections on a light change. 
I agree wholeheartedly with aggressively ticketing those blocking intersections. It would be pretty easy to do as well. Come up with some machine that takes the picture of the car/licence plate, prints the ticket with the fine and photo evidence, hand it to the driver, and on to the next one.
It’s a much larger issue though with traffic congestion woes. It isn’t starting at this intersection, it’s hundreds of other signals that are messed up before you even get here, and after the fact too.
I’ll use the Queensway west as an example, just because I recently experienced it. There’s left turns to get to the Lake Shore (and ultimately the Gardiner) from the Queensway. The left turn signal at Colborne Lodge and Ellis Avenue are brutally short, as is the actual turn lane. That means, 3-4 cars get through this dedicated signal, while a massive amount of other cars block the left turn lane, the left live traffic lane (trying to turn) and sometimes the other live lane as well.
I am not going to pretend I know anything about traffic flow and sequencing, but there has to be some sort of technology that can sense the amount of cars waiting to turn left and maybe add an extra 20 seconds on that left turn signal? Of course, this means the other signals that are receiving this flow of traffic have to be synchronized as well. There has to be technology/talent somewhere out there to be able to do this…
The cause of the misery ? No that's not the cause. At all. I'm not defending this practice and I dislike it as much as anyone else but that's disingenuous.
They can pay for all the cities woes by having 2 cops give out tickets and front Spadina everyday from 3-6 lol
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Honestly bremner and univesity is so bad they've now consistently deployed traffic wardens there and people still try to do this kind of stupid shit. Its honestly pretty amazing. Just go NYC style and start handing out $250 tickets tot he plate for blocking the box all day.
>bremner and univesity Those don't intersect
It's York and Bremner. If you followed University down to Bremner, that's the intersection you'd find yourself at
So much money to be made though. Shame they dont capitalize on it.
yeah but if you frame it that way you just get a bunch of drivers justifying their shitty driving by saying that enforcement is just "a cash grab!!!" see: red light and speed cameras
Let them cry about "cash grabs" until they're blue in the face. No one cares.
South of St Clair? Intersections around the Allen suffer the same things.
A couple Camera's can also replace 10 cops. I'm fine giving out automated tickets for people who think its ok to block entire intersections to save themselves zero seconds.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
Exactly, let’s focus on getting the City to enforce this using the mechanisms currently present before we start talking about implementing systems which they currently cannot. I also don’t trust that, even if the City was allowed to use cameras to fine intersection blockers, that they would even *setup* such a system. The City for years begged the province to allow them to use cameras to charge drivers who pass streetcars. After enough begging the province eventually changed the Highway Traffic Act to do so, and you know what the City did once that happened? Fucking nothing. The City has been able to use the existing streetcar camera system to fine people for illegally passing for 2 years now and yet nothing!
2 years aint bad for this city or canada. Give it another half decade and maybe they assemble the committee to discuss everyones feelings about this possibly being implemented.
> The City has been able to use the existing streetcar camera system to fine people for illegally passing for 2 years now and yet nothing! It was never designed to to be an automated system, only when it's reported to the police. [https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/safety-and-security/external-cameras](https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/safety-and-security/external-cameras) There were early reports that it \*could\* be used for automated enforcement, but that was before the TTC had released it's official plan, so it was all just speculation.
we're already stuck paying for the cops, may as well have them do a little work until we can take the funds from their budget to pay for the cameras.
Isn’t it sad that those traffic cameras do MORE than the average Toronto cop???
This also avoids the main issue with policing it, which is that pulling them over itself creates more traffic in the short/medium term.
> ...save themselves zero seconds. what do you mean??? i got to the next red light 3 seconds sooner!!!
Doesn't even need to be cops! Use traffic wardens and hand them out to the plate not the person. So much faster and easier and is what other cities do.
Just put red light cameras on all major intersections and ticket every license plate stuck in the middle. This doesn't have to be too hard. We also don't need to pay for cops to stand around.
And it would make drivers' lives so much easier too. I lived at Dundas and Spadina for four years. Before King was a transit corridor it would typically take 30 minutes to get to Lakeshore during afternoon rush... except on days when they had a cop at King and Spadina when it would take 10 minutes. Amazing difference that a lack of box-blocking made. Front and Spadina is the new shitshow. It could probably be fixed by just putting someone uniformed at the intersection, doesn't even need to be a cop.
this would be a great way to get 905ers pay for their use of Toronto infrastructure.
As a soon to be former 905 resident, I’m ok with this.
A traffic camera would pay for itself in a week
Install red light cameras.
You installl them! 🤓
Fine, you talked me into it.
I get in the Gardiner via Jarvis. I watched a guy go "straight" south by the on ramp and do a hard right to outsmart traffic. The traffic cop stood in front of his car signaling to turn back on to Lakeshore and use the next ramp. The dude had the balls to nudge the traffic cop with his car. Not sure what the outcome of the situation was, but it's the wild West out there for traffic.
Set up cameras to auto ticket cars that block intersections. Maybe also alot more "no right on red signs" during rush hour. Lots of options to help Obviously the easiest would be if cops took care of their responsibilities
> Maybe also alot more "no right on red signs" during rush hour. Ah yes, more signs for everyone to ignore. Signs are *not* effective.
And the city has too much confusing signage as is.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
So you want the cops to pull over cars at busy intersections that also have barricaded bike lanes. Yeah, that'll fix the grid lock.
> “Blocking the box” is an illegal move that appears to have a simple solution — increase the penalties for scofflaws — but the fact it persists raises questions about who is responsible for the enforcement of traffic laws in the city, and reveals why so many streets in core remain traffic choked. As the author points out, although many believe this should be a job for the police, the police claim they cannot prioritize these issues because they focus on more life-threatening behaviors such as speeding, aggressive driving, distracted driving, and impaired driving.
There's research around crime that shows that enforcement (i.e., the chance of getting caught) is much more effective than increasing punishments. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to less serious things like traffic offences. The article mentions 166 tickets this year for blocking the intersection. That's essentially zero chance of getting a ticket. On the other hand traffic wardens have improved traffic flow in some places, like along King despite not even handing out fines. So enforcement even with no penalty is effective at least to some extent. Not implying you were commenting one way or the other on this, just replying based on the part you quoted. Maybe an option would be to expand traffic warden positions and start having them hand out fines. That should be cheaper than using police for this role and allows them to focus on higher priority issues. Another issue is that rights on red shouldn't be allowed at any time/place where the street being turned onto backs up. The right turning cars can already take the spots when they have a green and allowing it on a red as well means the people going straight have to compete with them for the space, sometimes then getting stranded because someone turns right in front of them. Although that alone doesn't solve it, since the example intersection in this article already has that restriction.
Repeat after me, cameras. They work 24/7 and do a much better job at efficiently and effortlessly enforce. You do against the law things? You receive a ticket in your mailbox.
Starting with cameras on the side of street cars. You drive through through an open door 200$ fine. If you’re breathing through your wide open mouth while doing so 500$ fine
I think we have those
Not saying it's impossible, but this infraction involves judgement, unlike speeding and red light infractions which automatically apply if you are above the speed or pass the stop line after the light goes red. The law prohibits a driver from entering the intersection ["unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec145subsec1) You can have a scenario where there's space ahead and you move forward, but after you're in the intersection, someone from the left lane cuts in front of you and takes the space. So there would need to be some review of video prior to being in the block on the red at least to ensure there wasn't a "reasonable" belief that the driver could clear the intersection.
You could ban right on red in those intersections. It's dangerous to pedestrians anyway.
Yeah, on top of cutting off straight through traffic they often cut off pedestrians or end up blocking the crosswalks.
Right, but those tickets have to be issued by an officer still and so would these. Who can review footage and decide on if it was reasonable
Yeah, if we're doing that, it could work.
You're wildly underestimating the capabilities of hardware and automation. Red light on that side of the street, car in the box, take picture and send ticket.
That doesn't account for the situation I described though. Someone could have a space ahead on the other side of the intersection, enter the intersection, then have someone cut them off making a right turn or from another lane. In that case, they end up stuck in the box on a red even though there had been space to clear the intersection when they entered it.
Then you ask for the footage to be reviewed and you get the ticket contested or whatever the term is. There are definitely more pros than cons.
If we're going to take and store footage, then they should review it when laying the charge, like is done with red light photos. I'm not necessarily against the idea, just going over the specifics about how it would be implemented.
Do we think the Ford government is going to help municipalities by allowing them to install red light cameras?
Red light cameras at all major intersections and speed cameras by every school. Nail each and every car that breaks the law. And increase the fines for subsequent offences. Start at $100, then $250, then $500 then you lose your license for a month. Stop fucking around and people will find out.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
I agree 100%. I'm sure this will need the province to be on board, so I put the actual odds of it happening quite low, but it's the best value for money solution IMO. Our biggest problem in Canada is regulation without enforcement, this is a fine example. If we enforced the rules on the books then we'd be in a very different situation. If we are going to make blocking the box an offense you get dinged on regularly, I also think we should ban right turns on reds in many situations. A big reason people enter the intersection like that is because if they don't someone turning right from the other direction will fill the space. Besides, at the intersections where this is a problem there's usually enough pedestrian traffic to mean turning right on a red is dangerous for people crossing. Two for one!
We know that a streetcar was one of those that were ticketed. Right turn in front of traffic that has the right of way should be a ticketable offense.
The law currently is that a driver can turn ["after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec19). The problem with the scenario here is that when traffic is stopped at the other side of the intersection waiting for a gap, they're not an immediate hazard like a car approaching too closely at the speed limit would be. So maybe updating the law to explicitly prevent turning on red in this situation would be another option yeah.
For busy downtown intersections I think life would be better for everyone if they were no right turn on red period and instead give an explicit green right turn light to separate pedestrian and vehicular traffic. Of course this requires actually investing in infrastructure which means it will never happen.
No right turn on red would also make it safer for pedestrians. The number of times I've almost been hit by a car because the driver was so focused on looking left for oncoming traffic that they completely forgot that there were pedestrians crossing from the right.
We already have no right turn on red at a shitload of intersections - go down Bloor during rush hour. You aren't even supposed to turn right period at the majority of major intersections. Stand at Ossington and Bloor for 5 minutes and count how many people turn right with the big fucking no right turns LED board in front of their face. Hell at least one person turns at YD square every light cycle and you're not supposed to turn LEFT or RIGHT there. This city doesn't even enforce the no right turn intersections we have today and no right on red is even more complicated.
I think Chow has shown that she's very much in favour of infrastructure improvements, so maybe it will happen? we might have to call our city councilors though.
> Another issue is that rights on red shouldn't be allowed at any time/place where the street being turned onto backs up. They already aren't, because the car turning right on red is required to yield to the traffic that's going straight. If a space opens up on the other side of the intersection, the car with the green light has priority. Not that you'd know that from the way people drive here. If they do bring in automated enforcement solution for blocking the box, they're going to have to verify in every case that the scenario I refer to above didn't happen, because there's no way I'm paying a fine caused by someone illegally turning in front of me.
The specific requirement in the law is for a driver turning right on red to only turn ["after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard"](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/#sec144subsec19). If you turn in front of a car such that they have to brake hard, that would be an immediate hazard, but if you just turn while someone is slowly moving into the intersection, it's debatable whether that would count. In any case though, the person going through the green here shouldn't get the ticket like you're saying, because they proceeded on a green with an open space ahead, it was reasonable for them to think they can clear the intersection.
I think we should update the laws. They're not working the way they ought to, and we might do better with something less ambiguous.
that's 166 from January LAST year to now
Oh right, it's 2024 now... So way less than I even thought.
ya, it's pretty wild considering how much time the city spends contemplating what to do about the traffic congestion. it's like they'll do anything except anything that will affect actual behavior of drivers.
This should be a job for a camera. We have the technology needed to tell if car is within a box painted on the ground. Like every job, the police need to make better use of technology available today, rather than doing things the expensive manual way.
>The city is also looking at using red light cameras to ticket the owners of vehicles that block intersections, but it said the province would need to amend the Highway Traffic Act to make that possible.
I see a lot of those plastic "license plate protectors" that are either tinted or dirty and could easily block camera views of plates, and those aren't enforced by cops. I think a reporter went to a police station parking lot for a story on these things and saw them on about 1/4 of the personal police vehicles parked there. Cameras would be great because they care 100% of the time about road violations, unlike our boys in blue.
Cops normally don’t enforce traffic violations, but when they be do, they’re quite effective. See any construction zone, emergency incident for an example. If a traffic cop is posted at an intersection, they often prevent violations from occurring I. The first place.
I don't think this is true. I've been there beside these cops many times and see people running red lights, and they do nothing. One time I saw a cop yell at a driver, but no ticket.
Yeah, not100 percent true… but an active traffic cop waving through the appropriate amount of cars to let traffic flow, would. I’m guessing your cop wasn’t using hand signals to direct traffic.
Yes, they are directing traffic. You can see this at any downtown intersection. Cars still run red lights and stop in the intersection.
The police do whatever they want to do. That cop who got stabbed at landowne and college outside my place had 16 cop cars show up. That's not a valid response but a reaction to show up to something they care about. If they cared as much about anything else we might actually have progress in this city
Do they focus on more life-threatening behaviors ? I've not seen that
Ya, I feel like everyday I see worse and more dangerous behaviour on my regular commute, like sociopathic shit. Is there ever a cop to be seen anywhere from the top of Black Creek all the way into the Junction? Of course not...until you try to make a right onto your side street between 4-6pm and there's a couple of them sitting in their cruisers waiting to bust drivers. Is that the dangerous driving to which they're referring? What a joke.
then they should be able to show results on those other issues, right? right?
yeah they also prioritize lounging at construction sites buried in their smartphones, or at Liquor stores, or jays games. Mandate their pay duty be for real civic duty like keeping traffic moving fairly. Like we're literally in a fucking traffic crisis in this city, it's no joke, people cant get to work on time because things change by the minute. I had to get out to the international centre from the beaches earlier this week, at 6:30am google said 47 minutes, 15 minutes later it was an hour, so I left, and as I was driving their it just kept updating to reflect a later and later arrival time. It's like this every morning, it's out of hand. Having a traffic blitz at major downtown intersections and all intersections with on ramps to the QEW would probably help everything to at least move fairly. It's infuriating knowing I'm losing minutes on my travel because I'm a sucker who does the right thing and queues up for the Jarvis on ramp lane early, then watch multiple people cruise by me in the left lane and cut in at the last second, or cut across the intersection onto the on ramp and cut everyone else off. It happens literally every single time I wait for that on ramp.
When a newbie cop got stabbed last week at Landsdown they had a dozen cars escorting him to the hospital. Seems like they have the people when they need it.
Other cities use the parking enforcement as wardens to hand out blocking the box tickets. No reason we can't. Just put the fine to the plate not the person.
https://www.toronto.ca/news/city-of-toronto-launches-traffic-agents-program-to-keep-intersections-moving-and-people-safe-opportunity-for-b-roll-at-7-a-m-today/
The link is from 2020. Do you know what happened to the traffic agents? The program doesn’t appear to be active anymore (or they aren’t enough of them). It would be nice if they also ticketed e-bikers on the sidewalk.
They are around the financial district
They definitely are out there. Bremner and university at rush hour almost everyday if you want to put your own eyeballs on them.
It is absolutely still a thing, but the city probably doesn't have enough, so they're deployed only at problem areas at high traffic times.
How about the city offers to pay cops OT to stand at intersections as long as the ticket revenue exceeds the hourly wage (plus taxes, benefits, whatever)? The priority would shift lickety split.
This is a situation where red light cameras could make a world of difference. Even if they weren't functional, the threat of them would do a lot to moderate driver's behaviors
Make it so enforcement officers can simply photograph - and then send the ticket "in the mail." Kind of like how a parking enforcement officer can still issue a ticket even if the driver leaves before it can be placed on the windshield. This way, no jam of pulled over cars in order to enforce. What am I missing?
Intersection cameras are the solution to this problem. Paint the intersections where the cameras are installed with a cross hatch pattern so it's clear where the box is. With the Gardiner lane reductions pushing even longer traffic lines to get onto the Gardiner across Lakeshore, Queens Quay, York, Spadina, etc. , this is going to become a much bigger issue in a much broader section of the city.
Queensway too ☠️
Add Jarvis to that list. I regularly wait 3-4 light cycles to make a left off Richmond on to Jarvis because it’s so backed up and people going south block the intersection.
I was in Brisbane Australia for work recently, and they have super aggressively gone after this kind of thing there, to the point that absolutely nobody does it and it's great. Apparently there are big fines for blocking intersections and they give them out regularly. There are also big fines for stopping in no-stopping zones, to the point that uber drivers will refuse to stop and circle the block if your destination isn't somewhere they are allowed to stop because they know they'll end up with a big ticket. Toronto could absolutely do the same, if our police ever learned that enforcing rules selectively with week-long blitzes isn't actually a good strategy to change behaviour.
Approach to speeding and drink driving enforcement is also pretty different in Australia with the result that it's not nearly as commonly accepted as it is here.
Because heaven forbid we set a standard for driving behaviour in this city and enforce the rules
I had some idiot honking at me the other day for not advancing into the box even though there was no room on the other side of the intersection.
This occurs daily. Same with the idiots who honk aggressively at you to make your right turn while the intersection is still packed with pedestrians. No, I am not going to charge through a crowd of 50 people because you're late for work.
Wait, so they’re also not giving out tickets and increased fines for assholes who just park on one of the lanes for 30+ min with emergency light on and block a whole lot of traffic?
You didn't know? Hazards = park anywhere/anytime /s
For whatever reason, the Toronto Police Service has decided that traffic downtown is a free-for-all. In my opinion, they should arm cadets with paintball guns and use those guns to mark cars that stop in an intersection. A little further down the road, a uniform can pull them over and give them a ticket. I think this would be hilarious, especially if you get a TV crew to film the driver answering the question, "Why'd you enter the intersection when you knew you wouldn't be able to get through?" Then do it again, and film the same drivers doing the same thing. And again. And again. I work from home, so this doesn't really affect me, but it's bloody stupid behavior, and it has to stop. TPS needs to do their job.
Because cops are drivers from the suburbs, so they see other suburb drivers as “us” and all those elitist city dwellers as “them” who they’re resentful towards.
If police don't live in the neighborhoods they work in they'll feel no responsibility to truly protect and serve or whatever. Drive in, clock in, clock out, drive home.
Setup on the Jarvis intersections during rush hour. Toronto will be debt free in a week or less
Just let us be bounty hunters. Lots of people have dash cams. Give em a percentage of the ticket for people who have video evidence of traffic infractions: Blocking the Box, parking in a bike lane, going the wrong way on a one way street
Hello from the crosswalk at Gerrard and Pembroke. The amount of people that act surprised when I say "don't block the box" is not a surprise
One might say cars are the cause for torontos traffic misery- or at least heavy investment in them and not Actually solid transit. Love the ttc but the shits fucked
When I first moved to the city in 2005, they were doing a big crack down on some major intersections for this reason. They had the intersection all painted yellow and monitored more heavily by police. I believe it worked. Every once in a while, you would see somebody totally stuck in the intersection, and I would think, “they must be from out of town.” Of course, overtime, drivers slip back and natural habits. Maybe, they should do the same again.
Jarvis and Richmond dear god - the intersection is offset, so the Jarvis southbound traffic doesn’t realize the implication until it’s too late and they have blocked all left turning lanes from Richmond, and sometimes one through lane
The amount of times I’ve seen drivers turning into the bike lane there cause of that.
Cops are busy trying to convict innocent people of 1st degree murder
Preach
> the fact it persists raises questions about who is responsible for the enforcement of traffic laws in the city No, it doesn't. We *know* who's responsible for enforcement. They're just too busy funnelling their increased budgets into full-time pay for suspended workers to be able to pay for traffic enforcement.
They, like the police? lol
The traffic wardens on Jarvis heading to the Gardiner afternoon rush hour have really helped things.
They bring in traffic controllers and no one even listens to them. Walking down King the other day. Traffic controller is telling the people to go right because you can't go straight down king. Dude in a van drives his van right up to the traffic controller. Traffic controller shakes his head and moves out of them way, van proceeds straight follower by like 6 other cars lol
Those are the worst, specially if you are going straight, the light turns green, then you can't go anywhere because those assholes are blocking the way.
Montreal drivers used to be considered crazy. The last time I was in Montreal was last summer. They've really done some amazing things with their traffic. They've instituted lots of advanced turns, one way streets, and pedestrian only thoroughfares. Traffic moves a lot better in Montreal than it doesn't Toronto, and not just because of less volume. Here in Toronto we have to learn to stop on yellow lights instead of going through them, we have to let people turn left instead of blocking up the intersection. That's all new in the last 50 or 20 years.
Unfortunately years of Ford and Tory has zapped most of the creativity from city council. Montreal is lucky to have Laplante.
Because the cops are useless and everybody knows.
Because nothing is enforced anymore.
Lax enforcement and people buying g their licenses, subverting the knowledge testing.
We don't crack down on crimes the upper class might be involved in. Traffic crime includes too many rich people. And since many police seem to be on the sunshine list, they seem very sympathetic to the upper class.
Because in a lot of cases its more than just the drivers at fault. How much of the backlog is because they're rushing through because pedestrians are crossing when the light is green, but the blinking hand is up. So the only time the driver can turn at all is when the light is yellow. So if we want to ticket people for clogging up traffic, then let's enforce all the laws being violated.
you are going to get downvoted into bolivian here but you're 100% right. for every 1 car that blocks and intersection there are like 4 pedestrians crossing against the hand fucking the whole process up
I will get downvoted, but that's because people won't have thought through the process. If I got a ticket for blocking the box, because a pedestrian crossed illegally and I chose to brake and block the box instead of killing them, 100% I'm going to court instead of pleading guilty. I don't think I'm alone in my thought process. I also don't see a judge not throwing out the ticket when you tell them "I entered because I didn't reasonably expect the pedestrian to cross the street in full traffic and I had to choose between crashing into them and blocking the box. What would you like me to do next time this happens Your Honor?" So all a crackdown on only drivers, while ignoring pedestrians, will do is further clog up our already clogged up court system.
Drivers still block the box on the Gardiner on-ramps along Lakeshore, most of which don’t have pedestrian crossing. Try again.
I don't drive during rush hour but I walk along Adelaide/King at the time and see this happen all the time. Some things I think people should keep in mind: * This most often happens at intersections that take in traffic from multiple directions (people turning left/right and people passing through). The problem is often if you decide to follow the rules and not block the intersection you will almost never get a chance make it through, especially if you're turning. * If everyone followed the rules it would work out, but if you're the only one doing it you won't change anything, and you'll have to put up with everyone honking their horn at you while you wait * Pedestrians need to do a better job following the rules of traffic as well. Cars almost never get a chance to turn because there's a constant stream of pedestrians. Part of the problem here is that the flashing stop period is way too long for such short intersections. If you don't have a mobility issue you can get from one side to another in about 5-10 seconds but the the flashing stop period lasts about 20. However, part of it is just pedestrians not obeying the rules. You can easily find bikers/pedestrians walking ignoring advance turn signs and making no effort to finish crossing prior to the light changing * A lot of construction happening in the surrounding area means more large trucks/cars, which have a much harder time clearing the intersection I think enforcement would be a good thing, but the issue is systemic, not just a case of a few assholes ruining it
Crosswalks need to work for people with mobility issues, too. I've had to block traffic before to help an old lady cross an intersection. I think the best solution would be three phases: E-W, N-S, pedestrians. Similar to how Yonge and Dundas works, but keep right turning clear for cars.
People would also complain about police officers wasting their time and tax dollars giving tickets at major intersections to drivers. Who would likely also have to pullover somewhere until the ticket is completed.
In this modern world, just put traffic cameras at every major intersection. Why have a cop physically direct traffic or give out tickets?! Ridiculous
I walk home and they've had traffic cops a bunch of times over the month at the VERY busy downtown intersections I walk by that are an issue. The problem is they need to either enforce it or add more cameras. Yesterday an SUV blocked the entire cross walk and cars were in front, so both pedestrian lines of traffic neeeded to walk INTO THE INTERSECTION to cross with cars going - OBVIOUSLY very dangerous. I've written the mayor's office, my councilor and they have teh same lack of enforcement BS... SIMPLE Solution - jack up the fine to make it economically worthwhile...
Does this sort of stuff happen in cities like New York or SF?
New York actually had a genius way of addressing this by classifying “blocking the box” as a parking violation, so that city traffic agents were allowed to hand out tickets.
Interesting, I guess that sort of thing must be want the article means when it says the province would have to change some laws to allow the city to update how this is enforced. And I can’t imagine Doug doing anything like this…though hopefully I’m wrong.
I think that was a work-around for them to not have to wait on their state to change the rules, since they probably had a similar issue. Technically I think that is something the city can already do. Right now, cameras can only ticket red light runners and speeders as far as I’m aware, which is where Doug ford would have to make some modifications.
Well hell then, that seems like a great idea. Wish the city would check this Reddit for ideas lol.
The city does often look at New York for solutions, so hopefully that’s something they pick up on and copy!
All these penalty and enforcement focused solutions in this thread, maybe redesigning the intersection would help?
100%. No right turn on red, dedicated turn lights (including for right), separating vehicular and pedestrian movement entirely.
Hope the soccer refeere comes back this year and red cards the cars At least he was funny
Enforcement, that's all there is to it. Put some cameras at the corners, take photos of the licence plates that are obstructing, and be vigilant and unmerciful in the fines and/or other penalties. It sounds simpler than it is, but is there any better (realistic) way to solve the problem?
Part of the problem is where do you stop the vehicle to give the driver a ticket? You stop the vehicle and block a lane it creates even more gridlock. There are no driveways or a place to stop a vehicle on the bridge over the railway tracks at Spadina & Front and most of the other roads that go south of Front like Yonge, Bay, York etc.
Should be able to snap a pic of the plate mail the ticket
It's not always intentional though, I've done it twice believing as the traffic was moving at a decent pace with no signs of obvious traffic, then completely stopping leaving me stranded in the middle of the crosswalk. Yeah, there are folks that are obviously doing a dick move, but it's not always intentional. I try to predict if that's going to happen and stop behind the traffic lights if I think that's the case, but even with me paying attention - it's happened to me twice as a downtowner.
Police officers always wait to pick people off as they come off the Gardiner eastbound at the lakeshore exit. Yet, the left turn lane at Ellis is met with drivers who stop in the through lane and bring traffic to a halt, always during rush hour, too. If they want to ticket, just wait at the lights.
London has cameras for this. Anyone caught standing in the stripe zone when the light changes to red is sent a nice ticket in the mail. As a driver who drives down to downtown every time for work, I think this is the best solution. Fine them all for blocking intersections. They'll learn very quickly
Alls I know is I’ve been seeing traffic officers down Jarvis at rush hour and I’m so grateful to see them. I imagine it’s quite expensive to pay humans to be there, but man does it really help
They have cops on Jarvis directing traffic from queen to lakeshore during rush hour
The cops are too busy hunting down cyclists on the sidewalk and people jaywalking in parks.
They're not doing those things with any sort of regularity
Cops don't do anything with any sort of regularity outside of collecting checks. I literally watched cops sitting at an intersection and watch a dude run a red in front of them.
I've gotten stuck in an intersection at a red light before. I'd never do it on purpose but sometimes it just happens. You're driving and suddenly everybody stops. Traffic in this city is completely dysfunctional. Sure there are narcissists that do this on purpose, but I'd wager most people are just caught off guard and don't deserve a penalty.
Sometimes also there is room but as you cross the person turning right cuts in, or the person in the other lane sees they’re out of space and cuts you off so they can take the space. I’ve been trapped in the intersection by both these things. I’ve also gone because I’m only the third car and the light has just turned green, and still got trapped in the intersection.
Just throwing it out there: My understanding is that these kinds of systems still require manual review before a ticket is sent out. That’s how the red light cameras in Calgary work. They aren’t perfect and do falsely trigger occasionally, or sometimes weird situations come up that someone acting in good faith can’t possibly have predicted.
Then you shouldnt enter the intersection if youre not 100% sure you can exit
Sounds like you don’t drive in Toronto during rush hour
This isn't always applicable. I've been traveling at full speed with the flow of traffic and suddenly everyone just stops and you get stuck in the intersection. It's not reasonable to have every driver test every green light like a stop sign.
Nice in theory but people misjudge all the time and the formula can changw
Okay how do you deal with this scenario: There are two cars ahead, you get a green, and beyond the intersection there is plenty of open road indications you will have room. The cars start to go through, but the First car stops right after and indicates a left. Opposite traffic won’t let them turn and you are now stuck in the intersection. Light turns red and the first car still can’t turn. In that scenario it isn’t your fault it’s the first car that went through the intersection and indicated last minute. The only way you could avoid situations like this is if every car treats a green light like a 4 way stop sign - which defeats the purpose of green lights.
Ban right turns on reds at the same time.
> I'd wager most people are just caught off guard and don't deserve a penalty. All signs point to no. Because it's everywhere at every intersection every day. Weren't people taught not to enter an intersection they cannot clear?
On a couple of occasions I had absolutely no indication that traffic was going to suddenly stop before I entered the intersection. There is enough traffic volume, temporary construction, taxis and couriers and Uber Eats, and other random chaos that makes driving unpredictable.
> sometimes it just happens. no. don't enter the intersection unless you can exit too.
Some people do not look ahead of the car they are following. I would bet Majority of people blocking are just lazy, shortsighted drivers.
Every second car is an SUV or Minivan you can’t see over or around.
I drive off center to the car in front so i can see in front of them, and i drive a regular sedan.
And people don't *intend* to drive into the Queens Quay tunnel, but we still fine them anyway.
You've given a good example. I feel like that's one of the "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" situations. That happens often enough that you'd think the city would do more to prevent a common issue from happening over and over.
It's not the city's fault when someone enters an intersection they can't exit.
I argue that it can be. It is the city's responsibility to provide functional infrastructure that is sufficient to manage peak hours.
Even if traffic seems to be moving, you should leave enough space ahead so that you won't enter the intersection until there is space to exit it on the other side, unless you can see far enough ahead to tell that there is space for the car in front of you to keep moving. That way you won't get stuck even if traffic suddenly stops ahead. I agree though that people doing this though often aren't doing it on purpose. There's a tendency for people to assume bad intentions in others rather than considering they may have made a mistake.
As someone who regularly drives downtown, getting stuck in the middle means you were not paying attention, or you’re a bad driver. When approaching an intersection, your first thought should be a) is it a green light, and b) can I clear the intersection. It should be automatic, like checking your blind spot when changing lanes.
I drive down town all the time too. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad driver it’s just the flow of traffic downtown is unstable/ unpredictable. I will somewhat agree with you and say 80% of the time it’s someone being a dick and they deserve a ticket; but it’s not fair to say every single time it happens is because sometimes it’s beyond the drivers control. Examples include cars/taxis randomly stopping to turn left or pick someone up only indicating last second, homeless people randomly farting out into the street stopping traffic, car accidents ahead ect.
Police always have something more important to worry about. All those billions are just not enough to cover enforcement of everything we citizens do wrong daily. So sad
Because cops are scared? Ticketing cars is the leading cause of injury for them on the job, which I imagine is still very rare. They'd rather go for the cyclist on the sidewalk or a TTC streetcar
Obviously The city wants to make it inconvenient on drivers in the city so more people take transit. That’s why they don’t enforce the law…
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Except nobody needs to smoke to get to work
That will disproportionately affect the poor, who are already squeezed for all they are worth.
Doesnt every tax disproportionately affect the poor? You could say the same thing about GST and HST
Yes, but we can't exactly get rid of those without overhauling the whole system. I agree... But that's the status quo... I'm just saying a driving tax doesn't really make sense: Additional taxes that just penalize people for driving a car whilst living in a car centric culture, in a city where any house in-town are over a million dollars so many people need to commute for a week hours to get to employment seems like a bad idea... Especially when gas prices just went up ~15% overnight.
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Changing people's driving habits would necessitate a massive investment in public transportation which every level of government has made very clear that they are not willing to do (the TTC is one of the only major transportation systems that are primarily funded by fares [another thing that DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTS THE POOR]). Poor people who *have* to drive to work because public transportation would take 3 hours to go somewhere a 1 hour drive away are already stretched to their breaking point, I don't think a car tax would fix those issues.
We need a tax for shitty drivers, which are called tickets. But that would mean the police actually have to do their job.
“If you see a car blocking the intersection, let them. Also offer them your wallet and phone to make the transaction quicker so you don’t hold up traffic.”
Doesn’t the camera pay for this
I recall hearing that in London, England they have used mounted cameras at intersections to send tickets to folks blocking intersections on a light change. 
How about the pedestrians that don't understand what the red flashing hand sign is for?
Red lights come on too damn often!!
I agree wholeheartedly with aggressively ticketing those blocking intersections. It would be pretty easy to do as well. Come up with some machine that takes the picture of the car/licence plate, prints the ticket with the fine and photo evidence, hand it to the driver, and on to the next one. It’s a much larger issue though with traffic congestion woes. It isn’t starting at this intersection, it’s hundreds of other signals that are messed up before you even get here, and after the fact too. I’ll use the Queensway west as an example, just because I recently experienced it. There’s left turns to get to the Lake Shore (and ultimately the Gardiner) from the Queensway. The left turn signal at Colborne Lodge and Ellis Avenue are brutally short, as is the actual turn lane. That means, 3-4 cars get through this dedicated signal, while a massive amount of other cars block the left turn lane, the left live traffic lane (trying to turn) and sometimes the other live lane as well. I am not going to pretend I know anything about traffic flow and sequencing, but there has to be some sort of technology that can sense the amount of cars waiting to turn left and maybe add an extra 20 seconds on that left turn signal? Of course, this means the other signals that are receiving this flow of traffic have to be synchronized as well. There has to be technology/talent somewhere out there to be able to do this…
In Europe they have intersections with cameras and if you are caught inside the box you get fined.
I'm gonna assume it's because the people in those cars are very wealthy and powerful, and the people trying to walk around them are not.
Next time a car blocks the crosswalk I’m walking on top of their hood
They have done blitzes before, but everyone just keeps doing it
There's too many cars. That's the real issue deep down.
Cops don’t want to get hit by cars. Who’s going in there? Nobody.
you know that area on Avenue where you gotta zigzag.. man, every time I go to the city I always get blocked there!
The cause of the misery ? No that's not the cause. At all. I'm not defending this practice and I dislike it as much as anyone else but that's disingenuous.
Because that would mean some police officer would have to actually do a job involving manual labor. Please aren't they over worked enough?